Let the ball decide Spears’ fate
2 Feb 2006
No court ruling or political ruling should decide the fate of the Spears in the 2007 Super 14. The issue must be settled on the field through a promotion/relegation play-off.
The Spears are a political pawn being abused by everyone, but they remain a laugh a minute on the playing field. To avoid further embarrassment should these hapless souls be sent on the road for five long weeks in Australia and New Zealand, the obvious solution is to pit them against the South African franchise that claims the wooden spoon in this year’s competition.
Expensive court cases, which would involve every region and the South African Rugby Union, will only benefit the legal fraternity’s wealth. Rugby would suffer financially and morally. For once, let sanity triumph and let rugby actually do the talking. Play the Spears against the duffers of this year’s competition at a neutral venue in a one-off promotion/relegation. If the Spears win it then they deserve to play in the competition. If they can’t beat South Africa’s worst performing franchise, then it would be farcical to ask them to play against New Zealand’s best in Auckland or Christchurch.
As it stands the Spears don’t have the playing numbers to justify inclusion in the Super 14, let alone the Currie Cup. They may wear a rampant red outfit, talk a fantastic game and make a grand entrance, as was the case in Wellington. But the huff and puff are a disguise because this is a franchise built with the sands of political promise and not the brick of rugby tradition.
The game, according to the ever roving Grave Danger, will be plunged into crisis because of the Spears’ pending Super 14 entry. It should never be allowed to happen because the Spears should never have been allowed to happen under these circumstances.
You don’t need the wisdom of Solomon to find the solution to this one. Promotion/relegation is the oldest system in sport and it works. It comes down to performance and who is better. The scoreboard doesn’t lie; unlike the politicians within the game.
127 Comments
1 Feb 2006, 22:16 pm
passen Sie die Drachen auf
1 Feb 2006, 22:16 pm
That pretty much reflects my feelings too.
1 Feb 2006, 22:48 pm
amen keo!
let these guys develop in the cc for three years. pdv stated that he is developing the team over a three year period. that will be just in time for the spears to get hammered and relegated again in the s14. tony mckeever recently stated that he wouldn’t be interested in players from the relegated franchise. he asked the question why would they be interested in players that couldn’t do the job for their franchise in the first place? he also went on in detail of how visionless the current sa s14 coaches were
1 Feb 2006, 23:06 pm
Keo – I know that there is going to be a huge fuss when one of the teams gets dropped from the Super 14 – and the union involved is definitely going to loose a lot of money. But, in the end it is going to be good for SA rugby if all the players in one of the top five unions get a proper rest.
Playing in the Super 12 has been like killing the goose that laid the golden egg. Before the Super 12 started, and in the first few years after it began, Southern Hemisphere teams stood head and shoulders above the Northern Hemisphere teams. There was just no comparison. Then, the slow poison that was the Super 12 set in. A lot has been written about how professional the northern hemisphere has become but my take on the narrowing of the gap between north and south is that it is due to the huge strain that the Super 12 has put on players. Now, incredibly, greedy rugby administrators and TV bosses have extended the Super 12 to the Super 14!!!
In 1997 a similar fate (i.e. relegation) befell the then Western Province (before they became the Western Stormers) – and many Springboks, including James Small, Percy Montgomery and Pieter Rossouw played no Super 12 rugby. Later that year the most incredible run of victories started for the Springboks, only ending in November 1998 with a world record equalled (and with those three players playing major roles!)
What is my point? Let us hope that either the Stormers or the Bulls (the two teams that have the most Springboks) are relegated – and that that those players (who are contracted and won’t be able to join the Spears) get a really good rest before the 2007 World Cup, so that we’ll be able to compete with New Zeeland in France. And let’s hope that someone among our rugby administrators will lay heed to Prof. Tim Noakes cry in the desert about player burnout and stop the madness that is the Super 14!
(PS. Let me emphasise that I LOVE watching the Super 12 and think the rugby is brilliant, but I hate what it has done to South African rugby and its players. I mean, we haven’t beaten England since 1999, for goodness sake!!!)
2 Feb 2006, 00:01 am
Keo, I hate to say this but you’re right.
It’s the obvious solution and I’m sure the idea has been mentioned in rugby administrator’s meetings before. It’s just bloody South African politics that is holding sanity at bay.
2 Feb 2006, 02:33 am
Viking I agree with you.
However the game in the Northern hemisphere is becomming more of a money spinner too and the teams also are starting to play more games – however each club has a bigger pool of players and they just all the ‘old’ players that are over the hill in the southern hemisphere (just look at the numbers of overseas players in each club has).
One problem is we don’t attract players from the north to play down here – yes there has been one or two but even in Mallet’s playing days he did a WP and France/Itay club stint in the ‘off season’. The top players in the north get far more rest than top players in the south. Even this year the Oz or NZ were not allowed to play there national players in the first few warm ups – but SA let’s prove he is best in the warm ups (they are far from ‘friendly’s').
However if you compare this to football (English) they have a reward system to the team that get relegated so they can still pay the players contracts else the club will go bang – this is why the unions here are worried as they still have to pay these players but won’t have any income. Maybe all the money should be pooled to over come this – we all know that won’t happen. At the end of it the game suffers at the expense of making money.
2 Feb 2006, 03:44 am
I may not be very popular for this but I agree 100%.
I’ve always said, it’s not about giving the Spears automatic entry into the Super 14, it’s about giving them the tools to perform at Vodacom then Currie Cup and then qualify on merit into S14.
It’s a bollocks situation enforced on everyone by the fact that SARU and Van Rooyen are gutless.
Having said that, I don’t hold anything against the Management, Coaching Staff or Players of the Spears who are just trying to make the best of a diabolical situation.
The Western Force got a kick start off in the region of R13m – what have the Cheetahs had?
The Spears will get next to nothing from SARU this year or next – who are these idiots that make these awful decisions with no intention of follow through?
SARU – what a joy, under the presidency of Brian van Rooyen. Go figure.
2 Feb 2006, 05:39 am
ras are you burning the midnight oil or where are you finding yourself these days. the last time you were in the uk?
2 Feb 2006, 05:43 am
Nice article Keo, however I must agree with Viking.
Let’s start by saying “Ah, yet another team for the whipping!” So, since the birth of Super 12 I have watched us get beaten black and blue by Aus and NZ teams. Yes, I have enjoyed the rugby, yes it was nice to win every once and a while but the taste of victory during 97 (the year that Viking has spoken off) was, in my mind, the best rugby we have ever played! I don’t even hersitate to say that that team would of beaten the 95 team hands down! Does anyone remember anything else from that year except that WP won the CC? Do you even remember who played WP in the CC final?
If I remember properly, at the birth of the Super 12, the 4 teams we had were supposed to represent the whole of the country. Some strong unions were put together. Great! At the time it seemed like a great idea. I still feel it is so. However, when SARU saw the money spin of extending the Super 12, they grabbed it with both hands. Well done, SARU, you no longer represent my country (if I am blue, orange or any other colour), you now represent a sports channel!!
2 Feb 2006, 07:17 am
Keo,
Right there you display your crassness and bigotry and prove to all and sundry within rugby that you are only out for “Moi”.
You write like the fool and cretin you are as it is common knowledge that SA Rugby controls the competitions.
SA Rugby fas decreed the relegation system which was sanctioned and agreed to by all unions on the 5th June 2005.
This pretence that you are for transformation will stick in the craw of your BEE partners as right here you are saying that they are inferior, yet you take their cash in the one hand and stab them in the rear with a pen knife like some extra in Midnight Express.
Please pass this on to your Borad of luminaries in Johannesburg.
If you don’t we will see that they get a copy.
Note: Mandy please get this article off to the Board of Safika and RMB.
The fact that all 5 Unions in the Super 14 Franchise system have assumed ownership and title of over 30 elite players from the SEC/Spears region is testament to the fact that they do have the capability and right to play in the Super 14.
What question that does need to be asked now is what are these unions paying their players of colour as opposed to the white players?
You will find a chasm as vast as Pretoria is from Port Elizabeth.
The existing Super 14 franchises are weak and a sham and the screaming you hear from them now is the knowledge that Armageddon is nigh.
2 Feb 2006, 07:58 am
Good post Viking, but I would rather rest the core 22 Bokke from the CC. I think we will see a shift in this year’s S14 to rotating players more. The S12 was a marathon, but the S14 will be a ultra marathon.
Politics & SA rugby have always gone hand in hand (and rugby has always been the loser). If they allow the Spears in next year’s S14 they will surely be throwing those poor souls to the lions, the Spears (and rugby yet again) will be the big loser. A relegation match makes sense, that way the Spears will at least feel they deserve to be there as rugby players and not as political pawns.
2 Feb 2006, 08:03 am
I have been a huge campaigner for the Spears, but I was really concerned when de Villiers said it would take THREE years to build a decent side. That’s two years in Super 14 while building a side – then maybe they shouldn’t be there!
But over the past years, all the SA sides have been put to the sword (the Cats consistently) in this competition so if we have two more years of a side losing but developing talent (hopefully black talent) and putting the balance back in SA rugby, then i’m prepared to put my weight and support behind the Spears even if they lose.
There is no representation in SA from Kokstad to Mossel Bay – it just can’t be right.
2 Feb 2006, 08:14 am
throwing an inexperienced team like the spears into the s14 will do absolutely nothing positive for the side. contrary to what some might believe, the broadcaster do have a say in the quality of the product.
the spears haven’t earned the right to a s14 franchise through performance. everybody knows it was a compromise. i’m not saying that there shouldn’t be a sec team, but this arrangement will benefit nobody. give them three years in the cc and then automatic entry into the s14. in the meantime they can play a promotion/relegation game each year and if they win it, they’ve won the right to be there before the end of the three years.
if you throw this team to the wolves next year, the fans will disappear, the sponsors won’t rock up, the sanzar relationship will suffer, the broadcaster will think twice at the next negotiations and the team will be alienated further to the rest of the country.
2 Feb 2006, 08:35 am
keo
So you at long last realised that there is no chance for Court cases now you advocate this idea!
Anything to make sure te Stormers are not relegated.
Anyway, like kevin w has said, nothing from Kokstad to Mossel Bay, and you guys think it is the way it is supposed to be. Nice way for the other Unions to steal the black players (read: wings) from the SEC without having to develop their own.
Sorry bud. Get use to it. Times are changing.
2 Feb 2006, 08:47 am
Keo
I am with you on this one all the way. Think you must get back into rugby
2 Feb 2006, 08:50 am
Oh Hello,
In my opinion the spears should investigate 2 international forwards and 2 international backs. These players should be contracted by SARU into Spears setup and should be part and parcel of the development of Spears players.
We lack depth in our rugby!!
2 Feb 2006, 08:58 am
Perhaps the so called big unions should concentrate on winning games, that way they will avoid losing money and going to court. The ones whinging are the teams that are worried about getting relegated. not a good mindset before the season has started.
2 Feb 2006, 09:01 am
Kokstad to Mosselbay…who cares?? This is a professional game in which players move around, geographical representation is long gone.
2 Feb 2006, 09:12 am
Keo,
Agree with you (sorry Kandas. The only thing I will change is to make it a best of 3 series to see who gets to play in the S14.
Guys, there are some very interesting articles about our pal van Rooyen on the Ruggaworld site. Go have a look.
2 Feb 2006, 09:19 am
The promotion/relegation system can only work in SA rugby if the teams that play the Currie Cup and the Super 14 are the SAME teams.
THE TOP 5 CURRIE CUP TEAMS PLAY IN THE SUPER 14.
I support the promotion/relegation principle but it has to be done correctly.
We are nearly there: the Cats/Lions are basicaly one team, and so for the Bulls, Sharks, Stormers, Cheetahs etc.
Let ALL the currie cup teams play for promotion -You will find that the Currie Cup will return to the great competition it once was AND the best 5 teams will always play in the Super 14.
2 Feb 2006, 09:26 am
Kandas
You are one sad *******?
The Spears,although seemingly well marketed……..are poor, at best.Your argument that the other teams lose anyway, why shouldn’t we be allowed to lose as well, is something for Freud to figure out.Your mob sound like gravy trainers and handout merchants.Everything is deserved, nothing should be earned.
Well….just look at the scoreboard, laugh a minute sort of stuff as already stated.
If the Spears are to play S14, no problem…..it’s the 1st year freedom that gets me.Why? For what valid reason should the Spears be given a get out of jail free card in their initial S14 year? Developement you say? What bollocks- maybe they should have considered the first 2 CC seasons as developemnet time.Money?……gravy train!!!!!
Oh yes, Kandas
Maybe other unions should develope their own players of color?
Errrm yes, exactly how many of the current Spears squad are from Cape Town or the likes?
And who actually cares anyway.There doesn’t appear to be a problem with white boys moving to other regions why should there be one with black kids?
Nope, you Spears okes are all very smug sitting there hiding behind a ruling that we all know is a poor one simply because it benifits you.
All oportunists get there come uppance eventually.
2 Feb 2006, 09:33 am
The Southern Spares are, quite frankly, ALREADY a laughing stock in world rugby! And they will ascend to be the biggest comedy act of all time if and when they get to play S14 rugby and square up to the Crusaders in Christchurch or the Blues in Auckland or … you get the drift? A 200 point winning margin?
2 Feb 2006, 09:41 am
Genl Joubert
No need to apologise. I would be very scared if we just agreed on everything.
Fact is, I really wish someone would go make a list of:
1. Our players playing for the other Unions now wanting to come back to this region,
2. SA Players at other Unions and Overseas, whom do not have Super 14 contracts at this stage, who are International standard and who wants to play for the SEC/Spears.
You’ll be astounded. SA do have the ability to contract 180 Top players. Believe me.
StP, whatever. See my above points.
2 Feb 2006, 09:49 am
KEO
Please respond to my comment number 20.
PS: Kandas – this is a rugby site, not a site for frustrated politicions!
2 Feb 2006, 10:04 am
Kandas
You blokes really are a laugh a minute.
You tout black player developement and large black player base as the reason for your franchises inclusion,
but
In your very next post mention that there are loads of players initially from the region or foreign based players who would like to return…..and from what I gather, are being considered.No mention is made of their color…..I’ll assume you refer to white rugby players.Let’s be honest about it, there are not that many black ones.
What exactly is your stance?
Is the argument that the SEC has the largest non white player base only used to bargain for S14 status.
or
Come game time are we going to see(once the friendlies are over) another white majority rugby side?
2 Feb 2006, 10:15 am
StP
Geez, I wish you would open your eyes. I am talking about the Bevan Fortuins, Kabamba Floors, etc. Black Players. The Spears will never be a “white” side. Haven’t you realised it yet.
Oh, and by the way, players from other unions playing for the Spears now, like Dollie and Johnson, the same players others are raving about now, were discarded by their own unions. Must we leave them now if we think they have the potential?
You’re anyway going to eat your own words regarding Dollie, and others, within the next 2 years.
2 Feb 2006, 10:21 am
St Pete,
Deserved not given – if you believe that in the past your beloved Bulls, WP, Lions, Sharks, Cheetahs and the like were not given preference and handouts then you really need to wake up and smell the roses mate. Shoes now on the other foot and you don’t like it.
We have a massive section of South Africa not represented in one of the premier competitions in the world and you accept it. Yet 4 of the coloured players (Floors; Fortuin; Dlomo & van Heerden) will run out for the Cheetahs so they can meet their targets, yet they all played in the SEC in the last two seasons. 3 of the 4 in the last season. In fact the Cheetahs legendary coach, Rassie is from Despatch I think.
Look at the SA Schools captain last year – Dewald Potgieter – gone to the Bulls from EP; along with Frieslaar and Guavu who are at the Sharks academy.
Then look at the current players like Bobo (HE IS NOT FROM WP!!!); Russell; Watson; Gerber; Tyibilika; Ndungane etc. and tell me there is no talent here.
We need a team, we need a sponsor, we need support and we need some open minded individuals. Scared of the unknown, “die swart gevaar”, just like the good old days!
2 Feb 2006, 10:24 am
Keo
For a change you make perfect sence!!! Down the Clown, make Keo president.
2 Feb 2006, 10:29 am
Ja Kevin, we NEED we NEED, why the hell don’t they bloody DO for a change???
2 Feb 2006, 10:40 am
Everybody asks what the spears have done to get an opportunity to play in the s14 and they are referred to as gravy trainers etc. But just ask yourself what have the existing s14 teams done to stay there not a dam thing they have been an embarrassment for the duration of the s12 and they were also handed the s12 franchises on a platter no effort. Ask yourself this what have the force done to deserve an s14 franchise in oz they are situated in a league strong hold and don’t have any good aussie rugby sides. If the s14 franchise was going be decided on performance in the local comp as u are all suggesting then sydney should have been allocated another franchise. But the aussies dont have an agenda and they see it as an opportunity to grow the game and in an area. I just feel that alot of sa people see the SEC as some bee group and then obviously it becomes a us against them scenario which is why they refer to their franchise members as gravy trainers etc when they dont know a thing about the franchise and who are on their executive its just plain ignorance. While I do think it will be tough for the spears I think it should take more than one big defeat to say they don’t deserve to play s14(we all seem to forget they didn’t do to badly against the cats or cheetahs) with that logic the bulls would have been chucked from the s12 years ago after the numerous 50+ whippings they took both home and away before (ditto for the stormers last year) and look at them now they are probably the best sa s14 franchise because they had the opportunity to develop I just don’t see why the spears don’t deserve the same opportunity.
2 Feb 2006, 10:41 am
Kevin W
What you need the most is an HONEST rugby culture
and I support the concept of the Spears, as I have posted to Tony Mckeever- the test of the Spears Success will not be only on the field- but it will be the amount of integrety that will be shown in the Spears Board Room.
So I agree- the relegation issue is good- should put the fear of God in our lackadaisical S12 re 2005 sides, then have your relegation games
2 Feb 2006, 10:41 am
Sorry about that i know.. i know paragraphs and full stops are my friend.
2 Feb 2006, 10:42 am
No Kevin
I have absolutely no problem with the SEC inclusion as such.
I do have an issue with the fact that the SEC wants a place at the table…but then want a separate set of rules.
Also, I would have been happier if the SEC had said they want to develope players from the region and afford them some national identity……period. Why the issue concerning players of color?
Personally, I don’t believe that franchises go out to keep their sides as “white” as possible.
And there I have another problem with your SEC. This is what they insinuate.
Your ilk adopt a very high and mighty stance for a side that is being pummelled with ease.Although talented, your side will need to recruit….and in the positions that you are falling short, the okes you get will probably be hard Afrikaaners.
Ironic?
Either a promotion/relegation game is needed.
Or the SA team finishing lowest gets demoted…..Spears included.No free ticket first time at bat.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again……SA rugby needs the SEC to succeed,not fail.
You okes want to keep your mouths shut and your heads down because at the moment you are talking a far better game than you are playing.
And as for coach DeVilliers’ quote..”It’ll take 3 years to compete”
tough ****…….it’s right here and right now.
If you wanted 3 years breathing space you should’ve started 3 years ago or seek inclusion in 3 years time.
2 Feb 2006, 10:44 am
Kandas
Dont bother st p has proven over and over again that he lost his brain in some restaurant incident years ago.
2 Feb 2006, 10:46 am
Stp
Ok ill try again. Cant see why it cant be both u take some 4-5 experienced internationals and mix them with a bunch of development player (10 – 11) and try to develop strong unit.
2 Feb 2006, 10:48 am
Redox
You are insinuating the Spears will automatically do better than our current crop of S14 teams?
This is bollocks….and you know it.
That is the entire basis of the artcle….to see who is the better option for the S14. The new boys, or the side finishing lowest.
Also, you cannot compare the Ozzie situation to ours….the dynamics are completely different.
To Perths credit….they have a large supporter base, as I understand the season tickets are all but sold already.
2 Feb 2006, 10:51 am
leitz,
in your infinite wisdom – how do you propose they simply DO this if no journalist, SARU member or the organisation as a whole supports them?
the sheep mentality in SA rugby is rife.
BTW kevin W great post.
yes players must obviously go to the union that can secure them the best possible future, it is their jobs and they would be stupid not to.
these guys are not asking for hand me outs!
stop reading the **** that gets fed to you through the local media.
through every single report that comes from this region where no media bullshit spinning is involved the request is simple:
“Give us a level playing field”
already two presidents have been kicked out of two of the unions who contributed to the **** sorry state of affairs in this region.
the region itself is under no illusion that corruption and greed was the main reason why they find themselves in so much ****.
corruption from whom – the very supporters of that idiot BVR who are, as StP pointed out, the gravy trainers.
they have started with change, but they need support, they need SARU to stop with the lip service and actually go out and do something to help them financially.
why does SARU need to do this and why does everybody in this country need to get behind them?
simple.
for thos of you that have not realised it yet, transformation is a reality. it is something very real in SA and something we have to get used to and support – if you dont then rather not open your yap regarding this issue.
for over 10 years SARU and supporters of this country had the opportunity to correct this – and for over 10 years absolutely **** all has been done.
we are still where we were 10 years ago – it is a national embarrassment. and if you want to talk laughing stock, look no further than the top unions in SA who through all their power and money has done **** all to transform this game.
and for all the idiots that still believe we do not have enough black talent – just look at what JW proved with the ellispark test.
but like kevin w said. it is all too easy for the average south african to sit back transformation this transformation that, **** them let them suffer and “deserve” their place first, let them “prove” they are good enough. beware die swart gevaar….some of you are pathetic and need to open your eyes to the reality of what is happening in our country and how certain individuals are killing our game.
stop believing all the bullshit you read coming from the media.
2 Feb 2006, 10:53 am
As for losing my brain in a restaurant incidet…….quite possibly,
but
then there are a few of us because my opinion is seemingly the popular one.
Democracy only when it is convenient is it?
2 Feb 2006, 10:58 am
it suddenly dawned on me.
the issue here is not the spears at all.
it is who supports tranformation in SA and who does not.
if you support transformation then you will more or less support the spears.
if you dont, you will not.
now i can already see arguments about fast tracking blah blah blah is not going to help ****. well then, should we wait another 10 years for SARU and the major unions to still just window dress and stuff this up?
the reason politicians gets involved with our rugby is because the idiots that had the opportunity to change our rugby to be more representative did **** in over 10 years.
2 Feb 2006, 11:05 am
PissAnt, whatever boet. Rocket scientist you are, anyone differing from you is either a racist or against transformation? You’ll probably have little to add if you can’t rant on about transformation.
2 Feb 2006, 11:07 am
Pissant that argument is too black and white. I believe the Spears are necessary for the SEC region to get itself back into top flight rugby – my biggest issue is the two years they are guaranteed in the Super 14 – i have no issue with relegation and the Spears moving up – but they should be made to sink or swim – not have the luxury of two years !
2 Feb 2006, 11:08 am
St Pete,
Sorry if I appear to be making it a “colour” thing, but that is something that is never going to go away until addressed and addressed properly, not talk without action. My point is we always ***** and moan about quotas, then give the Cheetahs a franchise and almost their entire “colour” compliment comes from the area everybody ridicules.
I’m not for making it an all black side – in fact Josh Fowles and Chris Jonck are way better than the present Spears scrummies. Dewald Potgieter, Noel de Villiers and Albertus Delport are white youngsters that I would love to see in the Spears set up.
Redox actually hits it spot on with Aus – situations may be different, but you can’t get away from the fact that what the Aussies did was in the best interest of the game.
St Pete, if the current SA sides were actually doing well in the Super 14, i’d agree with you. But the fact is they are not, and the Cats have been the whipping boys year in and year out with half empty stadiums and possibly one of the worst supporter bases in SA!
2 Feb 2006, 11:09 am
actually i have a lot leitz.
so why dont you share your infinite wisdom and offer a solution – seeing your mind is already made up about the situation.
why not give reasons?
why not debate the issue rather than just sit behind a pc and condemn something you obviously – through your comments – know about 20% of?
it is very easy to condemn issues that does not sit right with you – have you ever challenged yourself to look deeper into issues before just passing judgement?
interesting.
2 Feb 2006, 11:12 am
Exactly PA, well said! This relegation situation is making a lot of players and unions very nervous.
Die fonke gaan spat van jaar. (No easy beats! Well hopefully?)
2 Feb 2006, 11:12 am
HEY hey boys,leave the handbags at home!!!!!
re: The Spears
Point 1.
From the start they said that they will be the Franchise that develops local players,and that they will be the fore-runners of transformation!Well,all fine and dandy,but,it seems that they will be getting players from outside the SEC,and some suuporters even suggested that they look at overseas players.Now,is that not conflicting?
Yes,it is the pro-era where players move from one team to the next,they are bought and sold like a commodity,but if the Spears start buying and recruiting players from other regions,does that not defeat the whole purpose of the Spears,and,is it not in direct contrast with their major reason they used in the bidding process?Who is bullshitting who?
Point 2.
Yes,all the current franchises did not prove successfull in the beginning,and yes the Spears deserves their chance,but,to give them a free ride too “develop” in a competitive squad seems stupid.Why not rather take a year or two longer in the CC instead of rushing the whole thing.It will give them time,which they need more than anything else,to build a squad,a fan base and to show all that they can compete against the Convicts and Sheepshaggers.
2 Feb 2006, 11:13 am
Hey Keo, chirs, simon dudes what about some 6 nations news, it is after all on this weekend.
Come come get wif da programme .
2 Feb 2006, 11:16 am
Why should the whole SEC and Spears debacle(which it is now) only revolve around colour and transformation?If,and it will probably happen,the Spears team turn out to be more than 50% white,and most of their top players are from other regions,will the Spears experiment be deemed to be a success?
2 Feb 2006, 11:16 am
St P
“You are insinuating the Spears will automatically do better than our current crop of S14 teams?”
All im saying is that they should be given the same opportunities to develop they will prob be just as or even worse than the cats and bulls were to start with but i think given the right backing they will develop.
“Also, you cannot compare the Ozzie situation to ours….the dynamics are completely different.”
Wht no they are trying to grow and develop the sport we already have a strong rugby playing contingent in the region and ur saying we shouldnt try to develop their games.
I have no problem with ur opinion but in my many run-ins with u on this site i have noticed that u believe what ur supposed to and without much thought given to why u believe it u are rarely able to convicingly justify ur opinion ditto for this one. (Hence the brain joke)
2 Feb 2006, 11:20 am
BTW,Keo,I agree with you,let them a a relegation/promotion match against the worst performing SA team,and the winner goes on to the S14.
2 Feb 2006, 11:21 am
PissAnt, I can only react on what I read, in the media. I know you don’t believe in that but unfortunatley I do not have the time and desire to drive down to the SEC to assess the situation for myself.
As for solutions, I have none that will instantly “lift” the SEC to a mighty rugby force. However, in reaction to the above article, I fully agree that the Spears should reach a minimum standard before they should play in the S14. This I think is common sense and will be in the interest of SA rugby and the Spears. If you don’t agree with that, fine. But how you’ve made this into a transformation/race issue I don’t know.
2 Feb 2006, 11:21 am
Keo – great article, I scour this site every day sifting through mountains of WP propaganda and Shark bashing to discover the odd gem of rugby journalism like this!
In my opinion I think the Spears are AWESOME! I am not from the SEC but I would agree that young players in the region need something to aspire to, and not just young players from the traditional rugby/wealthy schools in the region.
I think it is fantastic that SA should always have 6 potential S14 teams with the last 2 vying for a berth EVERY YEAR!
However this has to be done on the basis of rugby and NOT politics. The last placed S14 franchise must battle it out in 2 games, home-and-away based on aggregate to decide whether relegation occurs or not.
In the interim, the only scope for politics to enter the game is for SARU, SASSOC or whoever wants to interfere, to put their money where there mouth is and financially back the team that is fighting for promotion.
Who knows, maybe the team fighting for promotion can play in this “Rainbow Cup” ?!
2 Feb 2006, 11:21 am
Keo
Best suggestion yet! No excuses for anyone then.
2 Feb 2006, 11:22 am
ig,
i have stated many times SARU yet again managed to stuff up what could have been brilliant for SA rugby in doing what they did with the relegation system.
i do not agree with the relegation system and it should have been done differently.
what i do have a problem with is the fact that people are still questioning the importance of this franchise and how or if it is important.
also, because of administrators lacking in this area of our game, we have fallen very far behind, all lipservice and nothing has been done to positively contribute towards representation of rugby in our country.
and we ask why the government is impatient? it is blatantly bloody obvious.
the reason why we need to support this franchise and do it as soon as possible is because simple facts point out that the majority of our coloured and black players come from this area – more focus should be to improve this franchise and not to use it as a political weapon – either by SARU or the government.
why does none of the big rich unions offer any form of support for the spears? through clinics, camps, loaning of players not involved with their S14 squads to improve the situation in the region?
there are certain realities in SA we cannot ignore. i do not believe the ‘fast tracking’ quota system is the right way to go as we see it now, i do believe however that if selfserving individuals in rugby wake up to the fact that the sooner EVRYONE starts supporting initiatives like this and positvely contribute – the sooner government and the stupid *** policies that they are forcing in place will disappear.
can you imagine if all 5 major unions give their unconditional support to this region in the form of various ‘products’ as mentioned above, not necessarily financial, and promotes this region to the rest of the country as important and encourage sponsors to help them what we can end up with?????
the success of the spears or the region is of extreme importance to everyone and every person supporting the game of rugby in SA – lets rather look at ways to get them where they need to be as quickly as possible for the sake of rugby in SA, than ridicule them as an embarrassment for SA.
the embarrassment for SA rugby is the way the game has been administered in the last 10 years.
2 Feb 2006, 11:22 am
Hey GLC
How come defending the Spears?
Anyway, I’m with you PA.
Yes this is a professional set-up situation and yes players foloow the cash.
But here’s the kicker.
The SEC didn’t have the bladdy cash yet do they? They couldn’t keep players like Rassie in the 90′s, and what about Garth Wright and Danie Gerber who emigrated to the cash.
Now they’re just saying give us the cash so we can offer players like Kabamba Floors, Solly T etc a chance to play for us.
At the moment they don’t even have a chance because the money unions just snap the players up. With a competitive well supported and financially viable team, why would the players want to leave home?
The same argument doesn’t always work. Players prefer to play near home. Danie Rossouw has refused lucrative offers from elsewhere because he wants to stay in P-town.
The same with SEC players. Give them a union that has cash and muscle and the players would sdtay home. At the moment they don’t have that. There is no stay at home option.
2 Feb 2006, 11:25 am
PA
transformation,blahblahblah……
We need the Spears to be successful, they should pick who they like.Majority non-white…brilliant! I still don’t see it as the basis of any leeway in a very demanding and proffessional competition.
Being pro-transformation doesn’t mean I should also become pro-mediocrity.
You cannot honestly say the Spears will be ready to compete in next seasons S14 on the recent evidence. ****…..the Stormers pummelled them and the Stormers are a side that regularly get pummelled. I know that this is no way to make comparisons but surely it is a worry nontheless.
I also always have to laugh when people critize the Cheetahs transformation record and the fact that they continuelly recruit black players, normally from the SEC,granted…..probably because they are value for money.It’s Bloemfontein for heavens sake…..it’s white Afrikaaner central.If there are no black players there…there are non there.Quite frankly, the Cheetahs should be applauded for doing their bit to reruit some decent black rugby players to at least generate some interest.And lets not forget how many quality white rugby players the Cheetahs have lost over the years with a simple shrug of the shoulders….and yet are still able to put a quality rugby sid on the field year after year.You don’t hear any “it’ll take 3 years to compete” speaches coming out of Rassies mouth. No….they are ready, right now, anytime,any place.
Also, it is well known that Mark Keohane is a liberal if not far left transformation supporter.Should he publish an article such as this, you can be sure that all is not rosy in SEC country and these are troubling times for our rugby.
Nothing to do with the”beware die swaart gevaar”…more to do with “beware onse rugby gevaar”.
2 Feb 2006, 11:26 am
Vleis
Agree with u if they end up picking a prmarily white side then i dont really think it would be a success but a few experienced players (white/black) wouldnt hurt even if the team was 50% white that would be a huge improvement on the other 4 s14 teams.
2 Feb 2006, 11:29 am
It is utterly rediculous that a play-off can decide promotion or relegation. That means all a side has to do is produce one good performance a year to be promoted or relegated.
The top five sides for the Super 14 should qualify via the Curry Cup. The sides that perform best in the Curry Cup should be rewarded with the most favourable draws in the super 14 e.g. the most home games etc. Its only fair that New Zealand and Australia allow that since their own draws don’t put them at a disadvantage and they don’t have long tours like us.
The only thing SARU have to ensure is that the Unions don’t drive their Springboks into the ground trying to get into the Super 14.
2 Feb 2006, 11:30 am
leitz,
i do not expect you to drive down, hell i am not even in SA but i always try and make an effort to get both sides of the story before i judge or form an opinion.
again i say they are not asking for ‘special treatment’ when i listen to interviews coming from within the franchise, they are asking for a level playing field though.
on transformation i will stick to what i said. it is reality in SA – whether we like it or not. rather than ***** and moan about quotas and government involvement in our rugby, lets find ways to get these idiots out of rugby.
as mentioned before the majority of black and coloured players comes from this region – this is fact.
lets get them up to a standard of a bryan habana, or a lorrie sephaka – it will benefit all and everyone in rugby.
this region should be priority for all south africans and rugby administrators including unions.
we are not NZ, Aus, Eng, or whoever – they dont have quotas and good on them – we do – we need to accept it and help kids that love the game like habana to develop into top world class performers. one day we will reach a balance and this whole quota bullshit can go away.
the fact that as south africans we still do jack **** to get there is irritating me.
2 Feb 2006, 11:30 am
vleis,
development is a process … so if we can have 50% experienced players and the other 50% are the new Habanas, Januaries and Wynand Oliviers then I would say the process is a success
I mean if you wanted to bring a woman into formula one, would you say she had to have an entire female pit crew and management team.
Saying the entire team must be from the SEC is a little narrow minded.
2 Feb 2006, 11:31 am
PA,sport is about competing,no-hand outs!Why would any off the franchises help the Spears when they know that they could be replaced by the Spears,and then the Spears get a two year free ride????It’s like Asking Bush too donate to the Al-Qaida relief fund or Saddams legal aide!
The SEC wanted their own franchise,it is their responsibility,it is up too them too make their own success!
2 Feb 2006, 11:33 am
What difference will it make when they get spanked by 200 to nil by the Auckland Blues?
2 Feb 2006, 11:34 am
PA,what would constitute as a level playing field for the Spears?
KevinW,I agree with you,but,they used that line in their bidding process!Skynheiligheid is the correct word!
2 Feb 2006, 11:35 am
StP,
i mentioned i am totally against this relegation system as it stands now.
i know you support transformation and back the spears to hopefully succeed – so i guess we are on the same page.
i just believe a conscious effort should be made – something positive, **** when last did we have that in south african rugby – something positive…..
2 Feb 2006, 11:35 am
Also
It should be noted, that for the Perth side being the better option to grow the game in Oz.
Most of the playing personnel and coaching staff come from outside of the Perth region.Growing the game will take 10-15 years.
SA doesn’t have that exact option.With the S14 rotating amongst the worst perfomers, growing the game will be that much harder in the SEC.
Can someone please clarify….
Should the SEC be deomoted in 2-3 years.Do they keep CC status? Or are the players out of work and drift back to the Leopards,etc.?
2 Feb 2006, 11:37 am
Please Tackler,
this is the page for serious discussion.
Comedy….
Please go to the Saru comment page.
2 Feb 2006, 11:38 am
TO ANYONE WHO IS NOT PROTRANSFORMATION – Assuming South Africa has a population of 40 million, and 10% are white (4 million), by excluding the other 36 million we are shooting ourselves in the foot. Whcih surely MUST be a lesson learnt from our jaded past!?
NZ has a population of 4 million, Aus has a population of 15 million. Imagine the might of a FULLY inified South Africa! ! ! Imagine rugby was our national sport (like NZ or Wales) and ALL South Africans could present a UNIFIED front to the rest of the world! ! ! We would be unstoppable.
I say bring it on!
2 Feb 2006, 11:40 am
StP.interesting point!
If the Spears are relegated after two years,what then?
and
Will it be a situation where they will be playing only every two years in S14?
wHAT ABOUT THE LONGTERM?
We all know that contInuity is the key too success.Will this debacle be repeated every two years?Then they play in the S14 and next year they dont?What about players and coaches?Will they stay with the Spears in such a scenario?
2 Feb 2006, 11:43 am
A promotion/relegation play-off would undermine the whole system. It means a side could have a shocking season, only to redeem themselves in a single game. In other words they would only have to win one game in a season to be promoted or to stay in the league. It doesn’t make sense. The five sides for the super 14 should be chosen from Curry Cup form.
2 Feb 2006, 11:47 am
Wolverine,using your assumptions,who says the 36 odd million cares more about rugby,than soccer?
You cannot use that assumption,for the simple fact that the diverse population have diverse tastes,some preferr rugby,others soccer.
Off the whole “non-white” population in SA,what do you think is their favourite sport?Lets take a guess:
36+miilion:
Soccer 75+%
cricket ?????%
Boxing ????%
Athletics ????%
Rugby ????%
So,maybe you end up with maybe 5-10% are rugby fans,that leaves you with about 1.5-3 milj. “non-whites”.Have you thought about it that way?
2 Feb 2006, 11:48 am
Oh yes,and off that 36 mil,how many are illegal okes?
2 Feb 2006, 11:49 am
my hope is that in 3 years time, IF the Spears get relegated, they will have built a team that will be able to compete in the CC with a feeder system of youngsters coming through the ranks.
If not, I will be the first to put up my hand and admit that it has been a failure.
2 Feb 2006, 11:50 am
“Ask yourself this what have the force done to deserve an s14 franchise in oz they are situated in a league strong hold and don’t have any good aussie rugby sides.”
I don’t know where you base that argument about there being no good aussie sides on. Plus only two states follow league seriously there rest of the country is AFL.
In Oz there was a fair bidding process and the Gold Coast and Central Coast were eliminated in the early rounds as the ARU decided on having state sides rather than have a second team in NSW or Qld.
WA slugged it out with Victoria. both sides had support from their state governments but WA’s bid was more rugby and community oriented. WA had more dollars from the corporate sector than Victoria did. The Force have already out grown the stadium that they are relocating to full time next year by selling more memberships than the capacity of the ground.
2 Feb 2006, 11:51 am
vleis,
unfortunately i dont believe idealistic views – or even a professional approach to find the logic in this will work.
it is a sensitive and complicated issue in SA as is affirmative action, BEE compliance etc etc etc. in business – it is more difficult for us to accept it in sport because of the emotional link we have with sport – we work because we have to, thus the ‘transformation policies’ in business is something that we take with a pinch of salt most of the time – we watch rugby because we love it – transformation thus hits a lot closer to home and heart.
you cannot compare the spears to 50 to 100 year old strong unions. you will have the black activists jumping up and down and point out that for 100 years quotas was imposed on rugby in SA – just differently from what we see it now.
level playing fields, simple – give them the same budget as a stormers or bulls union – to buy and keep players in the region to develop and to build a formidable squad. for that they will need sponsors – for sponsors to come onboard you need a postive vibe about the franchise – for that you will need everyone in SA giving the union or franchise their support in whatever way or form.
2 Feb 2006, 11:55 am
Keo,
Agree and to make it more fair, let the two sides play the best out of three games. In such a case the chances are smaller that one team drop out because of a bad game on the day.
2 Feb 2006, 11:55 am
KevinW
It would be a good idea nontheless for the SEC to at least maintain CC status should they end up relegated.This would ensure developement, transformation and player retention continuety in the region.
I’m heading out guys.
It has been a healthy debate.
Cheers
St.P
2 Feb 2006, 12:01 pm
what is the point of playing a ‘play-off’ game against the bottom S14 team?
every single person knows that short of a miracle or some serious cash being pumped into the spears a vodacom cup side is likely to give them trouble let a alone a full fledged S14 side.
government will just put more pressure on SARU and SARU will be foreced to up the quota system, hell they might actually just force JW to select at least 15 black guys of the 28 guys going to the WC.
the **** will simply never stop.
2 Feb 2006, 12:06 pm
PA,but if the $$$$$$ is the biggest problem,should the pressure not be on the big companies to help out!Where is the big BEE Companies off Ramaphosa,Sexwale and the likes?Why are they not pumping the money?
And too be honest,m0oney wont solve ALL their problems,it may help a bit though!
2 Feb 2006, 12:13 pm
“every single person knows that short of a miracle or some serious cash being pumped into the spears a vodacom cup side is likely to give them trouble,let alone a full fledged s14 side.”
PA,if that is the case,what is the use of them playing in the S14?
2 Feb 2006, 12:14 pm
Vleis
LSM studies indicate that 43% rugby fans are black. It’s a growing figure too.
Guys this is a stupid debate.
Guys like StP are going to look real f—ing stupid if the Spears win the CC this year and by the same token PA’s gonna look like GLC (Oh, I forgot …he is) if the Spears are bottom feeders.
I reckon if in their 1st year of CC they end above any one of the S14 name unions they deserve the S14 spot.
Let’s see what happens then.
And Tackler
I want a photo and physical address and anything so I can send you a throwaway camera and a pile of dofshit to eat if the Spears beat any one of your Kiwi teams. The camera to take photos.
Not the big name ones like the Blues and Crusaders
ANY ONE
Groot bek.
2 Feb 2006, 12:18 pm
Vleis – if you read my post I made the comparison of NZ and Wales as having rugby as their national sports. I feel that this is what SARU should endeavour for. I agree it is unlikely that all 40 million will be rugby fanatics, and mainatining diversity in one of the most diverse (but also secular and exclusive) nations in the world is critical. However, there is nothing wrong with endeavouring for an unattainable goal if it has positive spin offs that benefit ALL South Africans and not just those who were fortunate/spoiled enough to go to a traditional rugby/wealthy school.
2 Feb 2006, 12:23 pm
ACTUALLY correct me if I am wrong,but,that 43% was the number of the players of colour that plays in the SEC region out off the total number off registered players in SA.Something like that,but it was certainly used to illustrate why the SEC needed to get the nod,it concerned the number of players,and not fans!
2 Feb 2006, 12:32 pm
Agree with Keo in principle in that the spears should have to be involved in a relegation game.
However, if the spears are used as a transformation vehicle, i personally would be happy to see this sort of team. However, it should be a development team for non-white players from all around the country, not an excuse for merely selecting white players from that region. The only whites should be a handful of experienced boks winding down their careers and interested in trying to develop and impart their S12 experience to the young guys.
As for the side that gets relegated, perhaps its not so bad, since their top-class players will move to the other unions and strengthen them and increqse depth making the other SA sides more competitive. Imagine Januarie and AP as halfbacks for the stormers or Jacques Fourie at 13 for the sharks or a cats pack with BJ, AJ, Ackers, Smit and Muller, they’d win the thing.
2 Feb 2006, 12:40 pm
vleis,
i find it hard to understand where you come from.
so let me just in short say again what i believe.
the relegation system sucks, i do not agree with it and it should have been handled better.
i support the region for there mere fact that the majority of our black and coloured players comes from this region and given the situation in our country, i would love for the majority of focus by administration to shift to this region because we need to develop guys the calibre of habana.
through the bullshit form unions and administrators in the last 10 years we have seen absolutely NO development of the game when it comes to transformation – a reality that will always be part of SA and SA rugby.
the region offers the perfect opportunity to correct this and do it in less than 10 i can assure you – but then we need everyone to support the region.
i want to see quotas out of rugby as much as the next guy – but we have been fooled by self serving idiots in rugby for the past ten years thus the government continues to interfere.
everyone seems to have an opinion that transformation sucks, quotas suck, etc. without offering one single solution, and transformations is reality. now we have an opportunity to set the record straight but nobody wants to support it?
in my view SARU and the unions should go out of their way to support them – it would be better for everyone involved with the game – surely we can agree on that?
2 Feb 2006, 12:46 pm
Vleis if 43% of the registered rugby players in sa are black then it is obviously logical to assume that the supporter bases of is of a similar quantity even if it is half tha much it is still pretty big.
2 Feb 2006, 12:47 pm
Okay okay,i agree,but only too a certain degree.
2 Feb 2006, 12:48 pm
Who gives a **** about transformation here really? WE all give a **** about teh quality of rugby, and if enough black people want to play, they will (if they can earn a decent living in the game and get some glory to boot, they will come). The main idea is that RELEGATION will light a rocket under some asses!! All of a sudden the boards will have to report to their shareholders that all that lovely tv lolly is no more. The big guys are crapping themselves for a change, and it is about time.
KEO yor idea stinks – a one game relegation plyoff will mean that all a bad team has to do is focus on one game the whole season, instead of focussing on being better than all the others for the rest of the season. STUPID IDEA!! This is why relegation works- exactly because there is a lot to lose.
Yes, Spears are kak currently, yes they are going to get their asses handed to them on a plate. So did/were the Bulls. But watch them kick up a gear when they are also up for relegation.
SWEAT, you fuckng useless wastes-of-oxygen who have been hanging around in the halls of power with no accountability or responsibility or consequence for so long now. Justify your ******* miserable existence for a change!!
2 Feb 2006, 13:15 pm
Why even bother arguing the toss on this one, it’s a **** up it will remain a **** up it will always be a **** up. When the Spears finish stone last in the currie cup this year. No doubt they will start chaffing that the experience was good for them and has put them in good stead for the Super 14 next season. The sad thing is they actually believe it.
Unfortunately we can’t over rule SA Rugby’s decision but sure as **** stinks the aussie and kiwi side of SANZAR will have grave misgivings over us sending a club side to the super 14.
Why not start a debate does anyone think that the Spears could win the National Club Champs?
2 Feb 2006, 13:17 pm
Possibly the craziest/most humourous aspect of this debate is that it all derives itself from a decision made by “Brian the Lion” in one of his desperate attempts to cling to his autocracy. Which incidentally is the manner in which SA as a whole is currently governed. So maybe part of being a South African is to take nonsensical and ill-considered decisions on the chin and proactively seek out the positives that could possibly result and support those?
2 Feb 2006, 13:27 pm
we have to wolverine dont we.
we are constantly dealt the same hand and somehow we have to find ways to be positive about it – which is why i believe south africans is far more superior than any other nation in a lot of ways.
we are probably the most pessimistic bunch of people out there – or the biggest idiots in the world for taking it on the chin all the time.
either way, we are at least unique
2 Feb 2006, 13:34 pm
Stick with unique PissAnt, as South Africans who consider themselves superior merely comes across as arrogant and get up peoples noses. Then Saffers just introvert and stick to themselves (London is the perfect example). Be proud to be unique, and be confident in one’s own ability.
P.S. How many Aussies do you know that take the hand they are dealt?!
2 Feb 2006, 13:35 pm
howdy Dudes Vleis, PA, STP, Red
First time speaking so compliments to all for 06. ye ye but to late, but i have manners ok!!
it the Western Force are so kuk, why don’t they play the Spears Quickly and we know where they are ito a competing standard for S14. that would be interesting.
2 Feb 2006, 13:39 pm
i think that (hopefully) the relegation system will
be aborted after the spears get thumped 60 – 0 in the majority of their games.
2 Feb 2006, 13:41 pm
hey GB,
compliments to you as well.
yeah the farce got smacked, but against a team i believe will win the competition.
expect more of those i guess.
2 Feb 2006, 14:01 pm
What an unworkable and frankly chidish idea. Why dont the CEO’s of the two franchises just meet behind the bike sheds and moer each other. That would be ‘FAIR’ would it not? An idea Obviously intended to create mouth foaming over-reaction.
The spears do not have the finances to contract players that the s14 team would have. That Idea will merely make it impossible for the team outside of the comp to get in.
Once in the s14 of course, the spears, or any other franchise that is entitled to enter, will have the resources and finance to draw the players they need.
WE NEED TO RELEGATE TEAMS TO KEEP PLAYERS, COACHES AND ALL INVOLVED ON THEIR TOES. SPORT IS ABOUT COMPETITION. The unlucky team will get 2 seasons to lick its wounds and take a good hard look at itself.
Imagine how much good that would do the Stormers for example.
Stormers to be relegated this season.
2 Feb 2006, 14:07 pm
Still a HUGE misconception though. The team relegated this year is only out for one season. After next season they are back in the competition replacing the team that comes last of the SA Teams (except the Spears). I.o.w. if the Stormers are relegated this year and the Cats come last next year (of the SA Teams, irrespective of where the Spears finish) the Stormers will replace the Cats for the 2008 competition. Thereafter it is the 5 best teams playing and the Spears will have to prove themselves better than one of the other SA Teams.
2 Feb 2006, 14:09 pm
If the Melbourne side AND one extra SA side join in a few years, there would be 16 teams, making it possible to have 4 pools of 4 teams much like the Heineken cup.
Why not, Aus could sustain one extra team, indeed would want to, and so would we. In the long term this would suit everybody, Provided the greedy Kiwi’s dont sulk and insist on an extra team.
2 Feb 2006, 14:10 pm
Exactly rednik, Exactly. So it can only do our rugby good.
2 Feb 2006, 14:12 pm
Amen Keo!
Keo 4 President!
2 Feb 2006, 14:22 pm
Kandas,
your last posting puts a lot of the other arguments into some perspective.
In the long run the relegation system is not a bad option. What it comes down to is that the last SA team gets replaced with another SA Team, full stop.
I can understand both sides of the argument that is raging above. But at the end of the day the team that gets relegated will only be out for 1 year max. In 2007 another team that has not been relegated will get a chance to take a break. After that it is “May the best team win.”
2 Feb 2006, 14:36 pm
Exactly Ollie and by 2009 we will surely be in the position, as rednik is advocating, where 16 teams will play with 6 from SA and they will probably play in a system of 4 teams in a pool.
So, do you want our 6th team (Spears) only to start in 2009 or would you want them to go into 2009 with 3 years experience???!!! Real simple isn’t it!?
The team that is out for one year can then also arrange games, like the Spears are doing for this year, against other teams like Canada, Namibia, Kenya, Japan, Heineken Cup Teams, etc. to give their players somewhat of a (much needed) rest and different exposure.
In the end, if you accept what I am saying here, all these guys’ objections really come down to one thing and that is that they do not want to expand the game in SA. Simple.
2 Feb 2006, 14:45 pm
And…
By playing against these other teams like Japan, Kenya, etc, we, SA Rugby, under a new administration (hopefully) will have full claim to the IRB that at least we are doing something about expanding the game in other areas. Or dont you think the Japanese would just love to attend home and away games between Japan and one of our Super 14 teams?
2 Feb 2006, 14:47 pm
I wouldn’t say the other guys do not want to expand the game, I think that we all want that. I would prefer to say that maybe they cannot weigh the good against the bad so well. Others just prefer bitching
Another very small perk I see is that at least a small number of Boks will get a bit of a break, unlees the big ***** find another way to make a quick buck at the players expense
2 Feb 2006, 14:57 pm
In the end it is all about good business planning which should be done over a period of at least five years and not start afresh every year.
2 Feb 2006, 15:54 pm
I think it might be a good thing to send the spears out into the wild. Maybe the politicians etc will see for once and for all that they cant play rugby. Quotas is fucked and the only way to the top is to beat the best and be the best.
This hole spears team smells like politics, I hated them before I could see them play.
2 Feb 2006, 15:58 pm
The only problem with that Keo is that experience in the Super14 is suppossed to help develop rugby in that region. What you are suggesting is like saying they have to first prove that they are fully developed before they are allowed to a chance to develop. It does suck that someone has to go out for them, but hopefully its the Bulls.
2 Feb 2006, 15:59 pm
great post that king, now i wonder what your absolute genius mind has to say about the quotas forced in our rugby during isolation in south africa – you know, the quotas that forced a certain number of coloured players to play for the springboks then?
what was it again…..?
oh yes…
15 was the number of players
and they all had to be white…..
2 Feb 2006, 16:01 pm
it amazes me that some people believe politics only played a part in rugby since we became a democratic society.
2 Feb 2006, 16:02 pm
Stormer
what are the chanches of the Bulls being relegated. jip we did not win in the CC final, but would not put money on the bulls to be last. Rather put money on your team to make a buck or two!
2 Feb 2006, 16:06 pm
I really think this relegation ‘stick’ will drive our current teams to do better in the Super14 this year. Losing will no longer be OK. I predict our best overall performance yet.
2 Feb 2006, 16:10 pm
good point, but that supports my point made earlier.
Honestly, looking at pre-season info, and reporting on matches – it will be difficult to want to predict.
you keep on supporting your team and i will do the same on my side.
2 Feb 2006, 16:10 pm
Hope springs eternal green blood. Hope springs eternal. It wouldn’t be the first time that a previous years semi-finalist has a terrible year.
Not probable, and I wouldn’t bet on it. But I’ll sure hold thumbs. The way you guys are going on about the ‘unjust’ CC final. We’d never hear the end of the ‘unjust’ relegation rule.
2 Feb 2006, 16:11 pm
what happens if there is a tie for worst?
2 Feb 2006, 16:16 pm
good question
2 Feb 2006, 16:16 pm
keo’s on a racial-political rampage today, lads. First the Lardy article and now this one. My view is that, yes, the Spears will probably get donnered by all and sundry in the Super 14, which would not be good for them in the long run. On ve uvver hand, a guaranteed relegation would be a very good thing for the five franchises that are currently competing in the tournament (except maybe the Cheetahs, since they haven’t yet had the chance to embarrass us in the way the other four have done, year after year). So I dunno. I’m ambivalent.
2 Feb 2006, 16:20 pm
Stormer
in my opinion we lost fare and Square. The previous year it was bad luck with Rassie not scoring and then dropping the ball vor EB to score.
i havent mentioned unjust or anything remotely like that!
go out and have a whale of a time, we will definitely be speaking again during the season.
if relegation factor works and we have 2 SA teams in the semi’s…… well thats another story / dream
2 Feb 2006, 16:26 pm
Well here’s to provincial rivalry being taken to a whole new level with what’s on the line. I already feel sorry for the supporters that are going to have to bite this one. Hope its not me.
All this talk about the Spears being ‘embarrsed’ and ‘donnered’ in the super 14. Maybe, but I think at a stage the Bulls had only 1 win from 2 seasons. They can’t do much worse than that.
2 Feb 2006, 16:27 pm
… and now a few seasons on. they’re contenders
2 Feb 2006, 16:30 pm
Stormer, you are right. No matter how badly the Spears fare in the Super 14 next year, it won’t be any worse than we are used to. A South African team always comes bottom of the log. Sometimes with one win, sometimes with two, sometimes with none.
2 Feb 2006, 16:37 pm
Only difference is that now a team can be hammered 13 times instead of 11. That’s got to hurt. You’re not doing much for my optimism Pierre.
2 Feb 2006, 16:39 pm
Give the Spears time and they will contribute to SA rugby.
2 Feb 2006, 16:56 pm
I’m not opposed to the Spears concept.
What does bother me is that the Spears are supposed to develop the players of the Eastern Cape region.
1) How can the SA region missing out on the S14 next year be expected to loan players to the Spears? Would that not defeat the point?
2) why are the Spears poaching U21 players from other unions? Again, aren’t we defeating the point (again)?
3) Let’s be honest – the Spears are not ready. How much will anyone develop when they get slaughtered by 50 points EACH week? The same will happen to these players’ confidence that what happened with Gaffie & Dave von H. after the All Blacks hammered us 28-0.
At this stage I would think a play-off match would be the only option (SARU can even start the Spears with 20 points on the board!).
MHO
2 Feb 2006, 17:45 pm
Who cares what teams you South African lot send to the Super 14?!?! The New Zealanders will trounce you all again. Send your Bulls or your Spears, it’s all the same.
Cannon fodder for the real deals!
And after we’re done handing out hidings in the super 14, we’ll give your Springbok a slaughtering too come tri nations time!
2 Feb 2006, 18:00 pm
Richie – we’ve got a superior record against your overrated all blacks for the last 2 years. On current head-to-head form we are better than you.
If it was not for the name, the haka, and the effective marketing you’d lose half that aura. it wont be long before people see right through the frailties in your team and expose them for the pretenders they are. its all just one nations hype. and i’d put money on them not winning it again next year…
2 Feb 2006, 18:31 pm
The All Blacks are the most consistent chokers in the game.
Four more years, Richie. I’ll put money on that.
2 Feb 2006, 21:01 pm
eastern cape has some of the best schoolboys rugby players in SA,BUT our admin/selectors/”guys who run the show” could not care 2 hoots about players and are only there for themselves , till that changes the spears are DOOMED
2 Feb 2006, 23:34 pm
Few things have made madder than this article!
Keo, look who the dinosaur is! You can’t step out of your narrow minded mentatlity for 1 second!
The Spears must get into the S14! The SA sides have embarresed us for long enough, if anything, there should be 3 new sides being offered places in the S14!
It is time for a big company to make their mark in rugby, get a couple of established players in their (look overseas – what have the SA S14 players ever done for us?!). Get some of the British Lions, French Cockrels & Pumas into the side. It is such an opportunity that SA rugby should be part funding to raise up the S14 side!
PE, not a bad place to move to from a mis Northern hemmisphere winter!
This is bollocks talking about promotion relegation, if that was the case, if you had one on one journalism contests for this site, there would only be a handfull of toddlers who can only string one or two Russian sentences together writing the articles!
Spears have the potential to stop the embarresment that is SA rugby in S12!
3 Feb 2006, 06:15 am
the bill
you probably still believe in santa?
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