Shape up, or ship out
6 Feb 2006
Springboks who do not meet the team’s fitness requirements this season will find themselves out of the national side.
“There are performance clauses in the players’ contracts and if they don’t meet them, it could have far-reaching consequences,” Bok conditioning coach Derick Coetzee told Die Burger on Monday.
Coetzee believes that this year will have a major impact on the Boks’ performance at the 2007 World Cup, and if players are not properly rested during the Super 14, Tri-Nations and Currie Cup, the Boks could face an injury crisis when they can least afford it.
If only nine of the 20 contracted Bok players were able to do all the fitness tests in January, how will things look in May?
Coetzee hopes the Super 14 coaches will look after their key players, but with the threat of relegation on everyone’s minds, his plea could fall on deaf ears.
“We must do things correctly now if we want to be successful next year,” he said. “It doesn’t help that we offer excuses afterwards that our players weren’t properly conditioned.”
64 Comments
6 Feb 2006, 08:17 am
Simon
How much do you know about these clauses??
6 Feb 2006, 08:24 am
there you have it: scrap this automatic promotion/relegation thing. just imagine the blood and guts when the sa teams will be playing each other.
6 Feb 2006, 08:31 am
I’ll be at both games this weekend. I expect to see lots of blood and guts GCC.
6 Feb 2006, 08:32 am
gcc
I like the relegation thing!! The SA sides will play with more hard this year and that can only be good for our game.
6 Feb 2006, 08:34 am
The super 14 is not the time to rest anyone. Std rotation policies will apply.
I hear the boks will not play Currie cup.
Jake also needs to think carefully about his second chioces, he knows what he has in soem of the players. I want to see carefully thought out selections for the start of the intl season.
We have a FANTASTIC chance to experiment against Scotland in the two tests and depending on the success of this to extend it into the tri nations.
Im sure that most of you will agree that if Jake starts to give a few other players important exposure that we could take a loss or two for the sake of blooding and experience.
He has to do it and should have started in November.
This way, our top players will get good rest and be allowed to recover from injury and get some good building gym work done.
I dont want to see Percy, OS, matfield, Botha, Smit, habana, Jean De Villiers, Burger, AJ, Pedrie play in the pointless currie cup and lesser tests this year. We need 30 players, not too much time to give the newer guys time to rack up test experience.
Jake must box very clever or its going to be a total balls up.
I say it again, I am willing to take test losses if i know that its not my first choice team on the pitch and I know why !
You guys agree ?
6 Feb 2006, 08:36 am
Hobo
Most of us agree there should be relegation for the same reason as you mention. The problem is that the promotion is automatic and not on performance ability.
IF all goes ahead as proposed by SARU then it will only be a decent system by 2008.
6 Feb 2006, 08:39 am
I don’t see the problem with regards to the boks playing Super 14 or for that matter the Tri nations this year. I do have a problem however with them playing in the Currie Cup thereafter. Again our November international calendar is diabolical and certainly not conducive to an injury free world cup year.
Insofar as the fitness of the Boks, any Bok player not meeting fitness requirements set 2 years ago obviously in his heart of hearts doesn’t want to play in the WRC that badly.
6 Feb 2006, 08:43 am
As long as no-one looks like Lardy Davids, we should be fine
6 Feb 2006, 08:48 am
DEE DAH
WRC?? World Rally Championships
The resting of players can be selective. (provided the coaches agree) Where you (JW) can ask a coach to give a BOK a rest because he played in almost every S14 and Tri-Nations match and where a guy who came in after round 7 of the S14 and only came off the bench in a few internationals is then required to play Currie cup.
I think he tried this last year??
6 Feb 2006, 08:50 am
If you look at the schedule the Tri-Nations and CC almost run concurrently this means JW should be entitled to demand that the Boks do not play CC.
6 Feb 2006, 08:50 am
KSA,
Jake and co need to be hardcore in their dealings with this matter. If there is no proper plan and real implimentation then we will not do well next year.
6 Feb 2006, 08:52 am
Snoop
I agree therfore the “demand” rather than “request” in the previous statement
6 Feb 2006, 08:55 am
Snoop, no. I can not accept any loss. Winning builds momentum, losing breaks it down. To do well you have to build and keep momentum.
If the coaches want the fans to “accept” losses while knowing they are experimenting then they must tell the fans. Before the Scotland test they must announce on tv and in newspapers that the Boks aren’t interested in winning only testing new players / combinations / tactics etc.
That way the fans can spend their money on something else than tickets or bar tabs.
I’m not going to buy a test ticket or support the game’s sponsors if my team is non chalant about winning.
I spend money to see my team win.
6 Feb 2006, 09:05 am
Agreed, we spend the cash to win.
Would you rather win a scotland test now, or the World cup next year.
Look at the bigger picture. It is thinking similar to yours that stops the coaches from doing this, the win at all costs attitude.
You are not uniques here, most will think this way.
By the way, imagine a well assembled and drilled (b) side winning that test you paid money to go watch. Would that not be the sweetest thing.
Think about it, the NZ fans were treated to this in November.
I want the world cup not some silly scotland etc etc test.
6 Feb 2006, 09:12 am
Snoop
On the Scotland performance yesterday we might HAVE to play our A-side to beat them
6 Feb 2006, 09:14 am
Snoop,all I’m saying is they must tell us on national tv BEFORE the test that they don’t care about winning and want to experiment etc. so that I don’t waste my hard earned money on a ticket or bother going down to the local to watch it.
6 Feb 2006, 09:22 am
Its not easy to say that – - one always wants to win, its important so it will never be said just like that.
We would guess with the selections and combinations being made. The media will guess, but you wont hear the Boks saying that.
KSA
I watched the game, they sure were fired up.
6 Feb 2006, 09:23 am
snoop,
JW needs to have 40 to 45 players in good nick for the WC imo.
this year he must start using fringe players.
shimmie and botha needs to get regular game time in the 3N this year as well as the other tests. i would go as far as to say smit needs to play max 3 or 4 of the tests this year.
same goes for our prop situation where Os needs a break.
locks similar scenario – vic should be handled the same as smit, and bakkies to a lesser extent, we need to identify at least 2 more locks this year.
on the loosies, solly t & wikus must get decent game time, use schalla and juan sparingly.
we really dont have a problem in scrummy’s, but again the 3rd and 4th choices need to get game time with fourie and ricky getting a test or two here and there.
JW needs to identify his 3rd choice flyhalf – well he needs to identify his first choice, we need to have 3 quality flyhalfs in 2007.
centers we are ok, JDV and JF must get a rest, and JW must judge whether de wet and MJ still has what it takes, otherwise centers like JP Nel, scholtz, olivier must be looked at.
wings the same, paulse must be handled as vic and smit, give nokwe, chavanga, decent game time, and introduce a benjamin and ndungane to the bok setup.
at the back we need both roets and jantjes to get decent game time so with percy we have decent backup in that department.
once this year is finished, based on the performances, JW must then select his numbers 1 and 2 in each position and give them the majority of game time in 2007 leading up to the WC to get continuity going and settle on a squad to take to the WC.
i remember england sending weak sides to the SH that got hammered pre 2003, and look at what they achieved in the last WC. fans need to figure out whether winning everything is important, or being successful at the WC is what they want.
6 Feb 2006, 09:34 am
PA
Yes, exactly. If he doesnt do it NOW theres ****.
Has to happen.
6 Feb 2006, 09:45 am
Of course the same rugby scribes and administrators who are suggesting tgis now will not be forgiven when after the first 5 bok games it reads:
1-1 draw with Scotland – first ever Scotland ein in SA
0-1 loss to France
0- 2 in Tri Nations
The question is will the administrators and rugby scribes accept that as a run of results …
6 Feb 2006, 09:46 am
PA,
Pity about Guthro, I recon he needed the entire super 14.
6 Feb 2006, 10:11 am
Cubiczir
Dont automatically think that our B side will lose all ….
If propery selected, it will do well.
6 Feb 2006, 10:20 am
b side:
front row:
guthro
botha/shimmy
andrews/sephaka
locks:
AJ
van den berg
loosies:
solly t
wikus
jacques/Joe
scrummy
fourie/bolla
flyhalf:
jaco
centers:
dewet
marius
wings:
nokwe
chavanga
fullback:
jantjes/roets
decent bloody team that.
6 Feb 2006, 10:21 am
I am just acknowledging that we have a long season and if it gets off to a bad start then Jake will be worrying about his own job rather than blooding players or developing the team.
6 Feb 2006, 10:25 am
c team (personall opinion):
front row:
botha (sharks)
shimmy/botha (whoever your second choice is)
bands
locks:
van schouwenberg
pieterse (cheetahs)
loosies:
ryno
dlulane
baywatch
scrummy:
Bolla/dekock/delport/davidson/pienaar
flyhalf:
bosman/steyn/hougaard
centers:
olivier/scholtz
nel
wings:
benjamin
ndungane
fullback:
roets/jantjes (depending on second choice)
moral of the story, we got 45 talented players, they need exposure now.
6 Feb 2006, 10:28 am
Cab
My B side with an eye on Development for the Future:
1 – Sephaka
2 – Botha\Shimmie
3 – Pat Barnard
4 – Barend Pieterse
5 – Andries Bekker\ Ross Skeate
6 – Tybilika\Watson
7 – Wannenberg
8 – Spies\Van Heerden
9 – Delport
10 – Bosman\Dollie
11 – Chavanga\Nokwe
12 – Olivier
13 – JP Nel
14 – Ndugane\Benjamin\
15 – Roets
A very young team. Let them go on tour with the Boks @ the End of the year and then let them play against Pemier Leauge Teams. They will get a taste of what rugby is like overseas and you might find one or 2 gems out there.
etc.
Let them play against Canada, Usa, Enland
Cheers
6 Feb 2006, 10:28 am
OOps Sorry Not Cab
Pissant
Cheers
6 Feb 2006, 10:37 am
methos,
and to think i left about 10 classy players out in my 45 – this country has the talent, lets develop it!
6 Feb 2006, 10:41 am
They should be playing ‘B’ games when they are on the Trin Nations tour this year – the ‘B’ side should play on a Tuesday night and the players will all be kept match fit for the 5 week tour.
6 Feb 2006, 10:49 am
PissAnt
I agree 100%. Let us on top of that put structures in place to identify talented youngsters and then develop them to their max.
Sort of a institute where these guys can get regular testing and advice on gym, nutrition and most of all motivation to carry through the stuff they learned.
We must build a pipeline through which talented youngsters get fed into the system. Not to let a guy get into the Test side or provincial side and them we hear he can’t pass to his right or he has problems fielding high balls.
Sort out the basics.
Cheers
6 Feb 2006, 10:49 am
Folks,
Pity Jake didnt start last year.
6 Feb 2006, 10:57 am
sometimes it scares me how much **** people can type…
6 Feb 2006, 11:06 am
Some of you guys appear to be promoting the idea of allowing a ‘B team’ to run on to the field as Springboks in order to rest the incumbent players. I think that this approach is wrong as the Bok jersey would be cheapened and our opponents, not to mention the rugby fans, would be insulted. Also a loss to one of the ‘minnow’ nations would be disasterous to the Springboks, the morale of the ‘B’ team players and our rankings.
The English prepare new players on ‘A team’ tours and then blood them as England players by throwing them into the mix alongside a core of the first team, who mentor the newbies. This type of structured approach would IMO be far more beneficial to SA rugby.
6 Feb 2006, 11:07 am
methos,
for sure buddy.
hell our under 19′s and 21′s won their respective WC’s!!!
both squads should immediately be put into and intensive program which includes strength work (gym), fitness, nutrition, etc.
we should make it impossible for other nations to scout and lure our young stars.
assessments can be run on the guys every second month so they do not dissappear in the system.
unions should contract these players asap on a junior contract or whatever and develop them with the support of the national body to make sure they develop into strong and skillfull players.
they should be send to rugby schools overseas to learn under other coaches and legends of the game, like the murray mexted (i think) school in NZ.
6 Feb 2006, 11:09 am
blouskop, when last did we see an ‘a’ team tour?
the dirt tracker scenario of old is ideal and something i would love to see.
6 Feb 2006, 11:10 am
As I said earlier, a dirt tracker side playing on a Tuesday before the Trin Nations game woruld keep everybody in the Test team on their toes and it would give the fringe players exposure without the necessary scarring done if the boks loose a test.
6 Feb 2006, 11:20 am
Methos
Sephaka must already be the most developed player in SA. Personally,although there are possibly concerns surrounding his workrate, I’d have him as my first choice loosehead, given that Steenkamp is out for a while.Os would be my supersub….used to close the deal on big occassions.
6 Feb 2006, 11:23 am
apparently it is called the QD lardass clause. it states “no lazy ******** may play for the boks”
6 Feb 2006, 11:30 am
Pissant,
Do you mean a Springbok A team tour? I don’t remember one. Have we ever had an A team? Last year the Churchill Cup was competed for by England A, Team Canada, the USA Eagles, Scotland A, Ireland A and the 2004 winners the New Zealand Maori. On 03 Feb 2006, England A beat Italy A 57-13. These are the sort of matches our second stringers should be playing.
Mid-week dirt tracker teams are ideal but when was the last time that the Boks went on a test series against one of our opponents? And dirt track teams usually contain a core of first choice players and their opponents are normally a province, not a nation.
6 Feb 2006, 11:31 am
St’P
I agree on Sephaka. The only reason I included him in my B squad was so that he can get game time, since Jake is preferring to go with Os and Eddie “No hands” Andrews.
Last year Sephaka played a brilliant game against the Frogs, he dominated one of the best tightheads in the World and what does he gets as a reward ? He gets dropped.
If you want to develop a guy at least give him regular game time so that he can prove that he developed.
Cheers
6 Feb 2006, 11:34 am
Methos,
I like the dirt track concept. Who do you propose we play on the Tuesday? Kiwi A or Aussie A side or a S14 side would be good I think.
6 Feb 2006, 11:46 am
blouskop
The Dirt Trackers concept would mostly apply to the end of year tour after the Currie Cup. During the Tri Nations it is not really feasable since it is a jet set from Sa to Oz to NZ and back.
Also the CC is on at that time. There is already a hell of an outcry because of the possibility that the Boks won’t play CC. imagine if they say that the next 45 best aren’t playing either.
Rather let them go on a End of Year Tour with the Boks. Play them against the Premier Division clubs or any comers. If Oz and Nz also take a “B” team along to the Northern Hemisphere they can have a mini Tri Nations or let England and France etc pick a “B” team and play them.
Cheers
6 Feb 2006, 11:52 am
jeepers okes you have short memories. we had an A-team tour in Jakes 1st year in charge – went to Argentina. Loads of the fringe boks (notably the bulls players) declined (refused?) to go on the tour, and I think Jake realised that with the ego’s of SA rugby players the way they are, the guys want to be springboks or nothing. The players themselves need to buy into the idea for it to be a success.
We have S14 – it should tell you all you need to about a players ability. The last thing we need to do is add matches and tours to an already congested schedule. The key here is to reduce matches and make sure the top players are managed properly. Rotation and player management should not be an issue at test level. Rest should come by keeping out of the really meaningless stuff like the currie cup, but SARU are too cheap to buy the players from the provinces and protect them.
Also, the fans would have far too much to say. I guess fans would rather have their bok stars playing in a currie cup final than against Samoa. But then thats the root of all our ills.
Dont get me wrong, some rotation is always good, but some of you are talking 40-45 players and thats just ridiculous – Straueli showed us we dont have that many players capable of playing test rugby. He tried them all aleady…
6 Feb 2006, 12:14 pm
don’t know if jake will swallow his pride, but i’m backing luke watson to bounce back from last season and earn a bok cap. schalk, juan and luke could just be the most dynamic trio around. joe to come on off the bench. luke battled last c.c. but he’s class and is apparently in top shape.
6 Feb 2006, 12:14 pm
Have we not been complaining about the Tri Nations draw that sees the boks away for 5 weeks – surely there is an opportunity there to take 30-32 players and play a dirt trackers side against either Oz A, All Black A side or even a South Sea Islanders Babarian side – it would ensure that there is a lively competition and generate interest over the 5 week period. Additionally it would mean players like solly, wikus, van den Berg, Conradie, Julie, barry, etc would be match fit come game time and if called apon.
6 Feb 2006, 12:17 pm
Cubiczirconia
What about the Currie Cup that is on at that time ?
Cheers
6 Feb 2006, 12:19 pm
Does it really matter if the Currie Cup is on – we want a Bok team that is feared, to do this we need a core of 30 – 40 players who can play in both hemispheres. The Currie Cup is only interesting in the last 3 weeks when all the boks are back playing – before that most boks are being rested or away on Tri Nations duty.
The only way we will get there is to develop players in the big leagues ie: Super 14 and dirt tracker Bok games.
6 Feb 2006, 12:54 pm
methos not bad, that would be a half decent team for the Spears, decent blend of experience and development.
Would also consider Ramapele, Lobberts and Frolich who should be around 21 next year. There’s also the leopards no 8, mokeuna, who sounds like he had a great season last year. The U21 world cup winning inside center signed by the cats. Also, plenty of 7′s talent and pace in Juries and Demas.
6 Feb 2006, 12:57 pm
munki,
i would rather cut the S14 and i believe too much emphasis is placed on it in the first place and that it also has little or no bearing on a players ability to play test rugby.
you have different coaches, different combinations, different conditioning methods, etc.
if you are looking at a scenario which will serve springbok rugby best, an ‘a’ or dirt trackers team is the best way to go.
look at the whole danie scenraio, JW sees him as a flank or loosie, and the bulls setup sees him as a lock, who suffers at the end, the player.
because he never plays where the national coach wants to use him thus wont be in the running when the coach picks his top players for this position.
brent russel all over again.
6 Feb 2006, 13:02 pm
“….they must tell us on national tv BEFORE the test that they don’t care about winning and want to experiment etc….”
You won’t find that sort of loser-mentality in NZ!
The All Black fans expect their rugby coaches to experiment AND win. And, of those two, by far the most important one is the Winning.
Losing is NEVER an option.
And that applies in EVERY single test they ever play.
And that’s precisely why the AB’s are the world’s best rugby team by far.
6 Feb 2006, 13:08 pm
yeah the best team that never won a WC.
that must suck hey.
4 more years plonker……..
6 Feb 2006, 13:21 pm
Tackler, I agree with experimentation, I just don’t want to waste my money on a Bok training game.
I pay to watch the Bokke play, not practise.
6 Feb 2006, 13:50 pm
Snoop,
You think the Currie Cup is pointless? Tell that to Rassie,the Cheetahs and their fans.
Pissant,
“i would rather cut the S14″. This is all a bit blinkered. So the Boks would only play internationals on their march to your Holy Grail, the World Cup? How would anyone challenge them for their place in the side while they’re wrapped in cotton wool and choking on moth balls.
I like rugby whether it be NPC, Currie Cup, S14, 3N, 6N. Preventing physical and mental burnout is all about managing the players adequately, that’s all.
6 Feb 2006, 13:52 pm
PA,
fair enough, but a different opinion might be that S12 is as close as one is likely to come to test match rugby without actually experimenting with one’s national team.
Lets face it, at least 2 of the SA sides perenially dont win a game the entire season, wouldn’t it be better to amalgamate these 2 sides into a more powerful team for the following season and use the other team slot to be filled by young players with transformation in mind.
6 Feb 2006, 14:03 pm
cab,
i will definately support a gesture like that, only have three or 4 teams then it will serve a purpose.
blouskop,
what value did the S12 had for SA rugby.
we are consistantly poor and no-one is the wiser at the end.
6 Feb 2006, 14:17 pm
PA,
Sure an SA team never won the S12, but I’ve watched some marvellous rugby and a lot of top talent has come through. It is indubitably the premier provincial tournament in the world. Unfortunately our lousy administrators don’t seem to be able to negotiate an equitable format where SA teams compete on an equal footing.
6 Feb 2006, 14:22 pm
The administrators hould break the 14 teams into 2 groups of 7. The top 2 teams from each group play semi’s and the winners play the final. They could even introduce a ‘plate final’ for the teams that finish 3 and have a play off
6 Feb 2006, 14:28 pm
Cubiczirconia,
I would love to see that, with home and away matches against every team in your group. Unfortunately the numbskulls at SARU are too dumb to think of such a thing.
6 Feb 2006, 14:33 pm
The last time we actually stood a chance in the Southern Hemisphere tournament was when it was the Super 10 in the early 90′s and all teams did a similar amount of travelling.
6 Feb 2006, 15:04 pm
Blouskop,
You needed to ready carefully, we were all discussing the RWC, and resting players etc etc blah blah.
The currie is important, just go read em all again.
6 Feb 2006, 15:07 pm
My suggestion was for a new Super 14 format playing each team in your group once with play off after that …
6 Feb 2006, 15:47 pm
I agree with Snoop earlier. JW should be developing 40 players that he can use for the WOrld Cup.
He should have an A and a B side. Use the B side in the early tests and the November tests against the likes of Wales and Ireland. Even if they lose, we will be giving them much needed exposure at this level and then when they are drafted to and from the A side, they will fit into the structures no problem.
Use the strongest team this year for the Tri Nations and the England tests in November. Also, stuff the currie cup. As a competition these days, it has lost it’s appeal. The only reason it ranks so high on everyone’s list of dram wins, is because it’s about all our boys are confident of winning anymore… Use it as a blooding ground for new talent. And lose the small unions who waste time and just make up numbers. WP, Natal, Lions, Bulls, Free State and Griquas or something should compete and have the next generation of players hammering away at each other week after week, before steppiung up to S12 and then Tri Nations etc. The path to being a Springbok should be a hard slog, where you must earn your wings at every level before gaining the ultimate prize.
All this would also help speed transformation along at a far greater pace, because there would be space in the CC teams for the players out there who play second fiddle to the countries top 50 players.
6 Feb 2006, 17:10 pm
Snoop,
I quote your comment no. 5:
“I dont want to see Percy…. Pedrie play in the POINTLESS currie cup and lesser tests this year.
Cubiczirconia,
‘each team in your group once with play off after that’. That still isn’t fair. We should look at something like Champions League or even Premiership soccer in Europe. Those teams would not put up with less. Home and away and then semis and finals for the top two in each group is fair and the S14 teams still would play less matches than the current S14 format, I believe.
6 Feb 2006, 18:44 pm
Simon,
I don’t buy into it
Being fit doesn’t necessarily make you more resiliant to hits and injuries which are part of rugby
Also, I am sure there is(was) a fitness clause in Q. Davids, E. Andrews and L. Sephaka contracts, so, are they really match fit rugby players? any penalty inccured?
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