Finding Bok numbers 16 to 30
20 Apr 2006
Keo, in his News 24 column, writes that Bulls coach Heyneke Meyer is 100% correct when he says South African rugby is in trouble, but Springbok rugby is still healthy.
Meyer, speaking to the Rapport newspaper, was reflecting on the Super 14 woes of South African teams and comparing the country’s leading 150 players to the New Zealand equivalent. That looks like a horror story if you are South African, but when it comes to Test rugby, only 15 can start against 15 and only 22 can get a shot at being part of that 15 on any given Test match day.
When Graham Henry finally settles on his 15, there is very little to scare Jake White’s best 15. The problem comes when White starts losing some of his best 15, whereas Henry’s complication comes when he starts losing some of his top 35.
That is the march New Zealand has stolen on its rivals in the build-up to the 2007 World Cup. South Africa, Australia, France and England all comfortably have 22 to 25 Test players. New Zealand now have 35.
White’s challenge this year is to grow his number from 22 to 30 and the only way he is going to achieve that is to give exposure to first and second tier players.
We know the All Blacks will use a squad of 39 to 40 players in their first five Tests and we can expect White to follow a similar path with the Boks. It is inevitable and it in no way cheapens Bok selection.
White’s consistency in selection is commendable but it can also be suicidal if he does not test the depth available to him.
My understanding is he will alternate and mix and match his squads in the Tests against Scotland and France, before settling on two squads for the extended Tri-Nations.
It won’t be a first and second team, but more a combination of one and two, with the odd match featuring the preferred World Cup run on XV.
If you want to feel sorry for yourself as an SA rugby supporter, then continue to follow the Cats and Stormers. If you want a bit of cheer, then start making your own selections about a Bok team.
Even in the Cats debacle against the Sharks, Bok utility back Jaque Fourie was the most impressive back on show. Already there is a Bok positive from the calamity Cats.
In the Cheetahs road show, the doom of defeat is a Bok victory for Os du Randt. The veteran front rower has played more Super 14 than anyone expected and been as good as ever.
The Sharks quartet of BJ Botha, John Smit, AJ Venter and Ruan Pienaar have been imposing, while there have been enough cameos from Schalk Burger, Jean de Villiers, Pedrie Wannenburg, Victor Matfield, Bakkies Botha, Juan Smith, Fourie du Preez, Bryan Habana and Percy Montgomery to give every Bok supporter comfort.
Where you have reason to feel twitchy is if you go outside of the Bok match 22.
What can White offer up as an alternative to Monty? Is Johan Roets good enough? Is Brent Russell an option? What of Conrad Jantjes and the Sharks youngster JP Pietersen?
On the wings, Ashwin Willemse is gone, so we are back to Breyton Paulse and Habana. What follows? Fourie as a winger? The Ndungane twins?
The centre combination of De Villiers and Fourie is the best in this country and among the best in the world. If they aren’t there does Wayne Julies, De Wet Barry, Wynand Oliver and Marius Joubert give you the same sense of comfort?
Flyhalf is a problem. Jaco van der Westhuyzen, Andre Pretorius and Meyer Bosman are the three in possession. None is a Dan Carter or even a Luke McAlister or a Nick Evans.
Halfback is the one area where the Boks are strong, so too loose-forward, but with no Bakkies and Victor at lock are Albert van den Berg, Danie Rossouw, Ross Skeate, Johan Muller and Andries Bekker good enough to win us a Test against Scotland and France?
Botha, as a tighthead, has warmed the hearts of the selectors, but who is the go to man at loosehead now that Gurthro Steenkamp is also gone for the season?
And finally who takes over from Smittie as hooker? Do you entrust Gary Botha and do you continue to back Hanyani Shimange at the expense of Schalk Brits?
I know that Du Randt, (Bakkies Botha), Matfield, De Villiers, Fourie and possibly Habana would challenge for a place in Henry’s best All Black XV. That’s the good news. However, some players being spoken of as possible Bok contenders would struggle to make a New Zealand Super 14 team. That’s the bad news.
When 15 plays 15, the Boks will always have a chance, no matter who they play. The challenge this season is for numbers 16 to 30 to be as competitive.
146 Comments
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20 Apr 2006, 06:24 am
Agreed, especially with regard to the backs. We can barely field seven, let alone choose a squad of twelve or fourteen respectable ones. I’m a little less confident than you are about the performance of the incumbent Boks. Regardless, White must use a large squad to give younger players experience. If he doesn’t do it now, they won’t be prepared for the WC next year. Frankly, the only backs who would have a slim chance of making the AB squad would be JDV and Fourie. The Boks were weak on offense last year and need to step it up or they will be in trouble.
20 Apr 2006, 07:11 am
Keo
This is a problem we’ve created for ourselves. The original concept of the SANZAR competition was to bridge the gap between provincial and national levels. Effectively a commercialised national trial.
As usual, provincialism has screwed this up.
The franchises should never have been allowed the amount of autonomy they currently have. The national coach and selectors are the ones who must have the most influence. Otherwise, what’s the point? This is why the ABs have been so successful in developing a pool of players. They actually have a plan.
Poor Jake has no say or influence in the S14 and yet has to put together a winning Springbok squad based on players coached and trained in whatever fashion the franchises decide.
The Bok sqaud should be the final stage of the selection process. Unfortunately it’s become the first.
20 Apr 2006, 07:38 am
Hell, I feel ‘twitchy’ for the first 22 never mind the rest! To put this more into perspective I feel ‘twitchy’ for what JW will feel is the top 22. I think we have the players to be competitive at the top level but I doubt my idea of the ‘top players’ is what JW (and Keo) has in mind.
Where is AJ in Keo’s ‘selection’?
JdV having the ability to get into the ABs? yeh right. As I said last year (already) JdV can’t tackle (a wet paper bag is a better option).
He moves out of the defensive line in attempts to intercept passes and be ‘the glory boy’. If he has a partner that can ‘tackle for two’ then it may work but SA doesn’t have such luxuries (and I doubt any other team). It has eventually been noted (rugby coaches/managers not always being the brightest) that JdV leaves huge defensive ‘holes’ and these are starting to be exploited. If JdV makes the squad it has to be at wing where his defensive liabilities are not that much of a factor. Fleck had the same problem, great on attack but poor defense (although better than JdV). SA don’t have the team to attack for 80 minutes and defense will have to be a big part of the strategy. This rules out JdV.
Let’s hope that Butch is over his injuries and can play along side Fourie.
20 Apr 2006, 07:39 am
If Australia had the depth of players as S.A. has they would be smiling all the way to the World Cup.
Australia has to make do with what they have at there very limited disposal and always put a very competive team on the field at all levels.
We just do not know how to develop our players to their full potential! It’s been happening for all to long now and somebody as to change that right now or we’ll continue to lag behind other nations interms of depth and skills.
Why is it that we in this country cannot do the same?
The coaching structures at all levels must be looked at and adjusted. Coaching academies must be started from junior levels right through to the top.
Coaches must also be sent on advanced coarses to improve our standards through out.
Act now SARU!
20 Apr 2006, 07:48 am
Keo,
I dont think JDV will even get close to be selected for a AB team nether Bryan Habana. Matfield dissapointed in the lineouts for the Bulls. The Bulls make the line outs to complicated. Throw the ball just on Bakkies or Matfield and forget about all the tricks. Schalk Brits is probably SA’s best rugby player. He must play for the Boks, he is better than Smith and Gary Botha.My bok team.
15 Jaco
14 Paulse
13 J Fourie
12 JDV
11 Habana
10 A Pretorius
9 Pienaar
8 Wannenburg
7 J Smith (c)
6 Burger
5 Matfield
4 Bakkies Botha
3 Bj Botha
2 Schalk Brits
1 Os
20 Apr 2006, 07:50 am
I agree, the Boks can beat any team,including the ABs.
Unfortunately we will have the S14 cloud hanging over us which means no confidence whatsoever.
How good is this World Cup really ? Does it mean anything ?
Won’t it be better to work on a log where the top finisher is crowned world champ? Even with different seasons for different countries surely you could devise some formula.
We are forever hearing how anything can happen in a final. In the RWC you play quarters, semis and a final. Doesn’t that then mean that the world champion is the luckiest of the top teams ? Which reduces the RWC to a sideshow.
Also think of the impact it has on other games. From now till the RWC we have to watch teams ‘experiment’ and try out new players. That’s not worth watching.
I’m not going to pay R 500 to watch the Boks practise.
20 Apr 2006, 07:50 am
So JW’s stubborness only to use his main 22 for two years in a row for the end of the year tour has proved detrimental. In 2004 the Boks were a tired team come November, same in 2005 whilst Henry made use of the opportunity to give others experience. It would not have cheapen the Boks jersey. JW won us a few tests, but he is lacking in strategic vision.
20 Apr 2006, 07:50 am
Iceman Australia is far better administrated and managed, fact!
Iceman SA is still trying to get over the fact that the blackman can vote.
Heyneke Meyer hasnt exactly said anything that is unbeknown to the SA public has he, any idiot can see that!
OCO Butch James should coach!
Rob Fleck should be involved in SA rugby assistant backline coach!
20 Apr 2006, 07:51 am
In spite of JW’s consistency he has already handed out more than 30+ caps in 2 years. Remember Mentz, Julies and Gaffie played against Ireland in a winning series? I think we are covered to face Scotland and the rest of the 2nd tier nations, but the challange is the top 5 teams and currently only NZ can face any other nation with it’s B team.
20 Apr 2006, 07:56 am
Our scrumhalves would make the All Blacks
20 Apr 2006, 07:58 am
I think we have the players. I back our players to do the job, giving they get the right skills training and gameplan. Now, a professional player shouldn’t be getting skills training, they play rugby as a job. But the fact of the matter is, they are lacking these skills and if Jake can get 30 players to concentrate on, then he should start immediately with their skills development. Also I think SA players don’t grasp the concept of professional rugby. It seems they think, all they must do is go to gym and practice. Fact is, you have to become a student of the game. Australia and New Zealand players are students of the game.
Here’s the players I think Jake must work on, injuries witholding:
15.) Percy Montgomery/Conrad Jantjies
14.) Akona Ndungane/Tonderai Chavanga
13.) Jacque Fourie/Marius Joubert
12.) Jean de Villiers/Wynand Olivier
11.) Bryan Habana/Brent Russel
10.) Jaco van der Westhuysen/Andre Pretorius
9.) Ruan Pienaar/Fourie du Preez
8.) AJ Venter/Joe van Niekerk
7.) Juan Smith/Luke Watson
6.) Schalk Burger/Pedrie Wannenburg
5.) Victor Matfield/Ross Skeate
4.) Bakkies Botha/Danie Rossouw
3.) CJ van der Linde/BJ Botha
2.) John Smith/Schalk Brits
1.) Guthro Steenkamp/Os du Randt
To me, this looks like a very good squad, given they get the right coaching and management. I really do believe in a year, this squad if developed properly are world beaters. So, I back the SA players and I back Jake White. I do think Jake should seriously reconsider his backline coach. I think Pieter de Villiers will do a much better job. After all he was the backline coach when SA won its first tri-nations.
20 Apr 2006, 08:00 am
There are few, if any. international class No 10.s in S A Rugby.
Look how the Sharks have improved since Tony Brown arrived. Although he has passed his sell by date unfortunately he has exposed the lack of fly-halfs in the country.
20 Apr 2006, 08:02 am
All interesting comments without any degradation yet.
JdV had one or 2 good moments on the weekend for example but proved himself as a clutching at straws option for flyhalf with one or two really por moments that cost the team dearly. His attempted clearance kick (and Schalk Burgers) both resulted directly in tries and were nowhere near the touchline. He would need extensive training for that. Even at 12 ,Ive not seen Mauger ever clear so badly and the only time ive ever felt entirely confident in JDV’s play (agaisnt the best opponents) is him at wing.
We desperately need to be grooming saomeone as a 12 to back him up….be it WO ,be it Brad Barritt ,im not sure but they need a lot of training as does JDV.
Certainly Jake will include AJ?? ,Akona for experience,Barritt too and I think there’s no prob investing in Naas Olivier and JP Pietersen too.Getting a blend of dangerous attack and defiant defence is key and being able to switch from one to thenext seamlessly ,not after a half time talk.
There is time pre 2007 RWC ,but yes Jake must go beyond the borders of his chosen ones and build a larger base.
20 Apr 2006, 08:06 am
Mclaren,
Paulse???????
20 Apr 2006, 08:10 am
I’ll play flyhalf for SA
20 Apr 2006, 08:12 am
I dont think Jake will move too much away from his core players. and lets not forget we have ex-springboks like andre snyman playing awesome rugby overseas, shaun sowerby playing good rugby in france, AJ playing brilliant rugby. so i dont think we have to worry about our bok side. it will be a good side with good combinations. although a weekness is 10 and experience of fringe players
20 Apr 2006, 08:16 am
Stoffel, it would only be a matter of time before the ABs poach you.
20 Apr 2006, 08:17 am
ERT,
So correct my man…
20 Apr 2006, 08:19 am
Paulse has served SA well, he ism not upto the new era of “kidz” playing wing, his pace is gone & all he has left is his good defensive reading of the game.It is time to blood youngsters, like the TWINS, cause CHAVANGA & NOKWE at this moment in time lack BMT – they are out of their depth & the coaches must work with these guys.
There is NO substitute for pace and if SA HAVE EXCEPTIONAL pace on the wings and at 13 then we will cause ripples in the rugby world.FORGET ABOUT PAULSE, PLEASE.
20 Apr 2006, 08:20 am
Stoffel,
Dont say that to loud.. in this country you might just get a call up to run crash ball into Jerry Collins
20 Apr 2006, 08:23 am
Stoffel keeop watching FLASHDANCE buddy!
20 Apr 2006, 08:27 am
I’m optimistic too. There are enough players who have done Springbok duty over the past two years and performed well. They may appear out of form with their S14 teams, but I don’t believe they have suddenly forgotten how to play. Every year we go through this despair but forget that S14 is actually a summer competition and nothing like Test Rugby.
20 Apr 2006, 08:28 am
ddrek
I agree with you. I’m also interested to see how Butch James performs as he could be the logical backup for JdeV. He would also provide an extra kicking option if Jaco plays 10 and Percy drifts out of the mix for JP Pietersen.
We also forget that AJ is a more than adequate replacement for Bakkies, if needed.
20 Apr 2006, 08:29 am
There is this promising guy from Boland called Dale Sandton, he’s not a youngster anymore but if Jake want to make the quarters in the World Cup it is time to get this guy in the squad. He lacks pace but got great BMT.
20 Apr 2006, 08:33 am
Moegrat
You’re right. I’ve also heard he’s prepared to cry for the cameras when they play the national anthem.
What more could you ask for?
20 Apr 2006, 08:36 am
Ive been watching BJ Botha lately, I must say hes impressive. Solid in the scrum and enjoys making tackles etc.
20 Apr 2006, 08:39 am
do you guys think that danie rossouw is good enough to play for the boks? my personal opinion is actually that francios van schouwenberg is actually better than pakslae? what do you guys think?
20 Apr 2006, 08:41 am
Edwill
How did we win that Tri nations ? Not through good backline play. Jake should get the best there is in the country… We cant have Allister Coetzee coach the Springboks, we dont need quota coaches as well.
20 Apr 2006, 08:41 am
I see in the papers this morning the Blue Bull supporters are striking in Pretoria. Imagine what its going to look like on Monday when they have lost against the Cats
20 Apr 2006, 08:42 am
ktb
since when has paulse been good at defence ?? The only time he stops a player is when someone trips over him. Paulse is THE most over-rated player in south africa.
20 Apr 2006, 08:43 am
moegrat,
what are you talking about?
20 Apr 2006, 08:47 am
The King
Well, I certainly do remember a certainly Joost van der Westhuysen, Henri Honnibal and Pieter Rossouw combination in a move unheard of in backline play that lead to a try, winning the game and ultimately winning the tri-nations.
Please don’t question the abilities of Pieter de Villiers. Do me a favour, go look at his track record but more importantly go look how the backs he’s coached performed…
20 Apr 2006, 08:51 am
the toi toi in Pretoria. Isnt it Bulls supporters??
20 Apr 2006, 08:53 am
Ya, PdV did such a great job with the falcons
20 Apr 2006, 08:59 am
the lack of quality play from the cats backs and the lack of attack from the boks backline tells me the coach isnt the right guy for the job. seriously there needs to be a good look at our backline coach.
20 Apr 2006, 09:05 am
15.Jaco vdW
14.JP Pietersen
13.Fourie
12.JDV
11.Habana
10.Petoors
9.Pienaar
8.Smith
7.Pedrie
6.Schalk
5.Victor
4.Bakkies
3.CJ
2Smit
1.Os
16.BJ
17.Gary
18.Rossouw
19.AJ
20.Fourie DP
21.Snyman
22.Percy
20 Apr 2006, 09:18 am
edwill
Sorry, I thought you were speaking about Alister Coetzee
20 Apr 2006, 09:23 am
No question SA has enough depth in my mind..
20 Apr 2006, 09:33 am
You guys rave that we have esufficient depth. Yes Akona and his twin plays well and so does a few small wings. BUT, if the line is not open ahead of them, then no try. Have you seen how easily they take them out. Our wings doe not have the strength for a hand-off, do not sidestep Gear of NZ and all the other good qualities. Watch the game and see how easily NZ swat our wings. Like flies. No space, no grace
20 Apr 2006, 09:36 am
Agree with Ert. SA wings only want to intercept and don’t want to create tries
20 Apr 2006, 09:39 am
If one of the centres get injured, Jake should play Habana at centre (remember that is his first position)..I think that Chavanga should cover at wing, if given time he could become really good. You could see that every time Chavavnga ran the ball against the Chiefs it looked as if something was going to happen, he was by far the fastest guy on the field, just needs to work on his technical aspects of the game.
World cup squad:
15. Percy (JP Peterson)
14. Paulse (Chavanga)
13. Fourie (Habana)
12. JDV (M. Joubert)
11. Habana (Fourie) (Snyman)
10. Pretorious (Jaco)(Percy)
9. Pienaar (Bolla) (Fourie)
8.) Juan Smit (Big Joe)
7. Venter (Watson) (Big Joe)
6. Schalk (Watson)
5. Bakkies (Skeate)
4. Victor (Skeate)
3. CJ (Fast Eddie)
2. John smit (Britz) (Shimange)
1. Os (Guthro)
20 Apr 2006, 10:03 am
How many times must I tell you plonkers this: JW will be great with the boks as he was the last couple of years!
I cannot remember us winning the s12 when we won the tri nations!!?? Get it into your thick sculls…JW will get the confidence and commitment to unheard of levels for the boks (I mean all the stormers boks are waiting for is the national season if you look at their form..)
So you will be singing his praises after this Tri nations again!
GO JW!!!
20 Apr 2006, 10:05 am
Madie,
wat van Macneill Hendriks (spelling) hy kan sy teenstander beter afstamp as Paulse!! terwyl jy nou vir Jouba, Chavanga, JdV, Bolla, Eddie, Skeate, Big Joe, insit – hoekom nie sommer die Wet ook nie en maak hom sommer kaptein.
20 Apr 2006, 10:06 am
bok team A & B & C
15.percy/jatjies/jp pietersen
14.tonderai/breyten/ondugane
13.fourie/marius/cooke
12.JDV/barry/julies
11.habana/ondugane/giscard
10.pretorius/jaco/bosman
9.fourie/ricky/ruan
8.aj/joe/pedrie
7.juan/j.cronje/g.vosloo
6.schalk/luke/??
5.victor/bekker/barend
4.bakkies/skeate/muller
3.bj/guthro/jannie du plessis
2.john/brits/shimmie
1.cj/os/ollie
20 Apr 2006, 10:17 am
Keo,
Why when discussing Bok options do you always throw Paulse’s name into the mix. You clearly haven’t seen him play recently. His performances in Europe have been mediocre and his defence, in particular, has been abysmal. His return to South Africa was inevitable, because his sojourn in France has been a complete failure. Put simply, he’s well past his sell by date. He was undoubtedly once a brilliant player, but he has lost pace, and the care with which he positions himself to avoid “contact” is becoming embarrassing.
20 Apr 2006, 10:19 am
Mmmm, question… but why does an island no bigger than Kruger Park have more depth in their rugby than us…???
20 Apr 2006, 10:20 am
Seriously hope Jake can bring some good rugby back to SA… we have been missing that of late.
20 Apr 2006, 10:23 am
Grrr u have been missing good rugby of late because of cats.. Luckily Sharks play better now!!!!!
20 Apr 2006, 10:26 am
My thoughts on the extended squad:
Fullbacks: Percy, Pieterson
Wings: Habana, Snyman, Chavanga, Ndunhane, Pieters
Centres: JDV, Fourie, Cooke, Joubert (Snyman)
Flyhalves: VVDW, Pretorius
Scrumhalves: Pienaar, Du Preez, Ricky
Loosies: Burger, Smith, Big Joe, AJ, Sowerby, Watson, Pedrie
Locks: Big Vic, Bakkies, Skeate, (AJ)
Front row: Os, CJ, Botha, Guthro
Hookers: Smit, Britz, Botha
20 Apr 2006, 10:28 am
Grrr(46)
cause our couches (from junior level up) all suck and NZ coaches dont
O ya, and they ar taught to catch a ball, throw a pass and sidestep. We are taught to go to the gym and the try and run over everybody
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