Finding Bok numbers 16 to 30
20 Apr 2006
Keo, in his News 24 column, writes that Bulls coach Heyneke Meyer is 100% correct when he says South African rugby is in trouble, but Springbok rugby is still healthy.
Meyer, speaking to the Rapport newspaper, was reflecting on the Super 14 woes of South African teams and comparing the country’s leading 150 players to the New Zealand equivalent. That looks like a horror story if you are South African, but when it comes to Test rugby, only 15 can start against 15 and only 22 can get a shot at being part of that 15 on any given Test match day.
When Graham Henry finally settles on his 15, there is very little to scare Jake White’s best 15. The problem comes when White starts losing some of his best 15, whereas Henry’s complication comes when he starts losing some of his top 35.
That is the march New Zealand has stolen on its rivals in the build-up to the 2007 World Cup. South Africa, Australia, France and England all comfortably have 22 to 25 Test players. New Zealand now have 35.
White’s challenge this year is to grow his number from 22 to 30 and the only way he is going to achieve that is to give exposure to first and second tier players.
We know the All Blacks will use a squad of 39 to 40 players in their first five Tests and we can expect White to follow a similar path with the Boks. It is inevitable and it in no way cheapens Bok selection.
White’s consistency in selection is commendable but it can also be suicidal if he does not test the depth available to him.
My understanding is he will alternate and mix and match his squads in the Tests against Scotland and France, before settling on two squads for the extended Tri-Nations.
It won’t be a first and second team, but more a combination of one and two, with the odd match featuring the preferred World Cup run on XV.
If you want to feel sorry for yourself as an SA rugby supporter, then continue to follow the Cats and Stormers. If you want a bit of cheer, then start making your own selections about a Bok team.
Even in the Cats debacle against the Sharks, Bok utility back Jaque Fourie was the most impressive back on show. Already there is a Bok positive from the calamity Cats.
In the Cheetahs road show, the doom of defeat is a Bok victory for Os du Randt. The veteran front rower has played more Super 14 than anyone expected and been as good as ever.
The Sharks quartet of BJ Botha, John Smit, AJ Venter and Ruan Pienaar have been imposing, while there have been enough cameos from Schalk Burger, Jean de Villiers, Pedrie Wannenburg, Victor Matfield, Bakkies Botha, Juan Smith, Fourie du Preez, Bryan Habana and Percy Montgomery to give every Bok supporter comfort.
Where you have reason to feel twitchy is if you go outside of the Bok match 22.
What can White offer up as an alternative to Monty? Is Johan Roets good enough? Is Brent Russell an option? What of Conrad Jantjes and the Sharks youngster JP Pietersen?
On the wings, Ashwin Willemse is gone, so we are back to Breyton Paulse and Habana. What follows? Fourie as a winger? The Ndungane twins?
The centre combination of De Villiers and Fourie is the best in this country and among the best in the world. If they aren’t there does Wayne Julies, De Wet Barry, Wynand Oliver and Marius Joubert give you the same sense of comfort?
Flyhalf is a problem. Jaco van der Westhuyzen, Andre Pretorius and Meyer Bosman are the three in possession. None is a Dan Carter or even a Luke McAlister or a Nick Evans.
Halfback is the one area where the Boks are strong, so too loose-forward, but with no Bakkies and Victor at lock are Albert van den Berg, Danie Rossouw, Ross Skeate, Johan Muller and Andries Bekker good enough to win us a Test against Scotland and France?
Botha, as a tighthead, has warmed the hearts of the selectors, but who is the go to man at loosehead now that Gurthro Steenkamp is also gone for the season?
And finally who takes over from Smittie as hooker? Do you entrust Gary Botha and do you continue to back Hanyani Shimange at the expense of Schalk Brits?
I know that Du Randt, (Bakkies Botha), Matfield, De Villiers, Fourie and possibly Habana would challenge for a place in Henry’s best All Black XV. That’s the good news. However, some players being spoken of as possible Bok contenders would struggle to make a New Zealand Super 14 team. That’s the bad news.
When 15 plays 15, the Boks will always have a chance, no matter who they play. The challenge this season is for numbers 16 to 30 to be as competitive.
146 Comments
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20 Apr 2006, 10:28 am
Reds
They have, but couldn’t watch the Sharks game… Congrads thou! Like I said before I wish they would have relegated the Cats. Then I could have gone and supported the Sharks. Now, I’m doomed for another year.
20 Apr 2006, 10:28 am
Agree David with post 2,
SA B team, 5 new caps
1. Steenkamp/EA 2. Brits 3. BJ
4. Ackers 5. Rossouw
6. Wickus 7. AJ 8. Sauwerby
9. Pienaar 10. Russell
12. The Law 13. Snyman
11. Willemse/Jantjies 14. Mentz 15. Roedts
20 Apr 2006, 10:29 am
OCO. What a good idea. Drop JdV and play Butch James. In fact, James is such a good idea that we should clone him and play him at every position.
20 Apr 2006, 10:29 am
Yoda
You have a point my young padewan…
20 Apr 2006, 10:30 am
yoda you forget the other important lesson sa rugby teach don’t run and create tries wait and intercept……
20 Apr 2006, 10:31 am
Grrr, the reason NZ is so good at rugby (comparatively), is that the nation eats, drinks, sleeps rugby. That is there focus. They same can’t be said of SA.
20 Apr 2006, 10:32 am
Reds
About that, I’m I the only one seeing Habana as a HUGE defensive liability???? Yes, he is fast but this waiting for an intercept is going to get us in trouble…
20 Apr 2006, 10:34 am
Pussycat
I treid to eat, sleep and drink rugby but got all blocked up. Not enough fibire….
20 Apr 2006, 10:41 am
Grrr(57)
Yes it does seem that way, but I think its part of there gameplan. Both wings do this and they havent stopped, thus I make the conclussion that this is part of their game plan, otherwise heyneke would surely have had a talk with them
20 Apr 2006, 10:41 am
Grr I definitely agree with u.. apart from intercept tries what else did Habana do? He is very fast don’t get me wrong but like the discussions in the media over and over again…Sa don’t know how to play creative rugby anymore
20 Apr 2006, 10:56 am
Put Habana in a AB backline and he wouldn’t have to feed off intercepts. FACT
20 Apr 2006, 10:57 am
We are in trouble.
It’s scary to see that Keo names almost the entire Cats backline as possibilities for a Bok team. (Jantjies, Fourie, Julies, Pretorius, Januarie)
If the Cats backline perform so dismal in the Super 14 why would they be any better in the Bok setup ?
20 Apr 2006, 11:02 am
Provvas (42) Plonkers hey! JW is short sighted. Andre Snyman – for heaven sake get motivated guys into the team. England made mistake of ‘exclusive’ team – once the core retired the team sucked, unlike Henry and his AB’s.
Also, we will win a game or two, BUT we need constant wins against AB’s and Oz. Our backlines get sufficient ball in S14. They do not know what to do with it. Unlike NZ teams that look threatening every time the ball goes to the backline. Someone said a good team has good players in no 2,8,9,10 and 12. See our S14 sides that battle and compare their players in these numbers.
20 Apr 2006, 11:03 am
what is the obsersion with Jean Devillers? He is playig **** from start to finish. He definitly won’t smell a NZ S14 team.
20 Apr 2006, 11:14 am
i think the fijains that nick mallett is going to bring in will help improve the size of our pool of quality players a lot for 2011 world cup,
the fijian with griffons could actually play for the springboks in 2 years time, akuila nacolaiviu, watch out for him in next year’s super 14 with cheetahs! great winger
20 Apr 2006, 11:17 am
Rudebud #62 that doesn’t bode well if you consider who the Cats backline coach is
Lets hope it is Ludicrious with his input ******** it up.
20 Apr 2006, 11:18 am
why do all other countries believe in the benefit of having a kicking 12, except SA? JDV is an outside back. The fact he can pass isnt enough to bring him any closer to the action. we need people who can kick and pass and tackle. In SA we have players who can only do one thing. i.e kick well, or pass well, or tackle well, or run well. Why are our players so one dimensional? we need skilled players who can run kick pass tackle side step and sprint all in one.
20 Apr 2006, 11:23 am
munkiboi those skills are taught out of any promising youngster coming through.That or we have a problem with our rugga players being unable to multi-task.
20 Apr 2006, 11:24 am
Munki
Not entirely in agreement with you.
Honiball was one of our best flyhalves and he never really kicked. The kicking option should only be to the gameplan. SA teams should go back to playing the running game and develop and coach the players to this extent.
20 Apr 2006, 11:33 am
Best news ever, I have just received mail from Strompies coach, if they beat the Reds with a bonus point they will come back with 10 points, the best tour in the history of the Strompies.
He wants to know why all you Strompies are so upset ? Mooi man..
20 Apr 2006, 11:34 am
Read this from NZ Rugby Post. Written in 2005 but very relevant in 2006.
DUMB FOOTY ON THE VELDT by Don Cameron
Purely in the interests of sporting research I have been examining the greatest of the Super 12 rugby mysteries – why the four South African teams who draw on such a vast reservoir of talent cannot win the tournament, and seldom even reach the play-offs.
The trigger was watching the Bulls play the Brumbies at Canberra a week or two ago. Although the pride of Pretoria was narrowly beaten by a below-strength Brumbies outfit, the Bulls showed distinct signs of class – sturdy loose forwards, tidy set-play and some imaginative back play to suggest the Bulls fliers had actually read a post-1995 coaching manual.
To check whether the tactical lights were actually alight in the Republic I watched the Bulls playing the Highlanders at Carisbrook on Friday.
The weather was coolish, the pitch a bit tacky, the smallish crowd wondering how their bonny boys would fare against the giants of the veldt. It was not even a contest. Tactically and physically Otago were light-years ahead of the Bumbling Bulls. Faster of handling, of foot, of appreciating the ancient art of backing-up the ball-carrier. Nick Evans was the star, but he had many clued-up helpers. Otago were sparkling, the Bulls played dumb rugby. Real dumb.
But not half as dumb as the Stormers against the Brumbies. The Brumbies, minus George Gregan and missing several injured star players, had a bunch of eager-beaver lads in their backline – with only Stephen Larkham and Clyde Rathbone of recent stardom.
The Stormers had huge forwards, and rolled out even bigger, beefier men from the reserve bench. They had virtually the Springbok backline. They were a little sharper than the Blundering Bulls, but were even dumber in their choice of tactics. Rathbone used to be a South African under-21 star before taking his enormous talents to Australia.
The home-based South Africans might accuse Rathbone of treason, but that is no excuse to try and knock his block off every time he has, or is near, the ball. Rathbone apparently has a large store of intestinal fortitude. He kept bouncing back until he took a savage blow (when making a dummy run) across the upper chest which evidently affected his ability to breath.
The Stormers madly pursued Rathbone and anyone else who came into their tackling sights and if there was an award for madness De Wet Barry would have won the gold medal… and the silver as well.
South Africa for ages have turned out what look the perfect rugby material – big and often fast forwards, beefy midfielders, fleet-footed wings and an endless chain of ace goal-kickers.
Do they only lack the substance between the ears?
20 Apr 2006, 11:35 am
Nick the Mallet must forget about the Fijians , get Geo , he suffered a few cracked ribs after a tractor fell on him, his on his way back to the farm, he have to buy a new tractor though.
20 Apr 2006, 11:48 am
Now to add to Don Cameron’s point – playing Schalk at OPENSIDE FLANKER is simply DUMB RUGBY. He would never be selected in this position in NZ or Aus – he is just too slow. SA needs a speedster like Watson in this position but most SA coaches have no idea about modern loose forward play.
Will Jake or SA coaches realise this? The answer is an emphatic NO. Dumb rugby on the veldt will continue.
20 Apr 2006, 11:53 am
I’m somewhat amused to read the critisms of Jake White.
SA were the laughing stock of world rugby in 2003 and a year later his coaching won the 3N for SA. In 2005, inspite of the success of South Africa from the previous year, there was a line of critics whinging about him blooding new players.
Last year SA were the only team in the world to beat the ABs and in both home and away games they scored more points than the ABs. So much for his ‘mistake’ of blooding new players.
Now JW talks about sticking with his core 22 and suddenly there they are again, his critics, lamenting the fact that he’s not looking at new players. Wake up and smell the roses people (including you journalists), the man knows what he’s doing. Because even if he isn’t picking the best players isn’t it strange how they can compete and win against the best in the world.
Actually just a little piece of useless information that JW’s critics don’t seem to know – Jake White’s record against the All Blacks is Won 3 Lost 1, and against Australia, if I’m not mistaken, Won 4 Lost 1. There isn’t another coach in South Africa at the moment who can come close to those stats (even the great **** Muir) –
Bulls…Stormers…Cats….Cheetahs….Sharks…
20 Apr 2006, 12:00 pm
Don Cameron is an idiot, he’s merely pandering to his dumber compatriots with some outdated view that south africans are these gigantic lumering oafs devoid of thought.
Absolute rubbish, the other teams are easily our size (in fact England and Oz were bigger) and our backs are some of the smallest in world rugby. Its a pity we dont have some of the old day mentality where we were big on forward domination and small on introspection, dumb powerful rugby is the last world cup was won.
Apart from the aussies, South Africans are the shrewdest sportsmen around. If the kiwis are so smart, with all their talent, when was the last time they won a world cup?
20 Apr 2006, 12:02 pm
Awaiting the bones Keo…
here are my predictions:
Chiefs to win Cheetahs
Stormers to win Reds
Crusaders to win Farts
Brumbies to win Canes
Blues to win Sharks
Bulls to win Cats……but not with nore than 8 points….
20 Apr 2006, 12:03 pm
Delek…it’s not the way Jake whats the Boks to play! Well at least not in the last two years. Aus and NZ play differently to us, Jake has always said he thinks the Boks has certain strengths and he wants the Boks to those strengths.
20 Apr 2006, 12:04 pm
Jake wants rather
20 Apr 2006, 12:06 pm
sorry…I’m about as good as the Stormers at the keyboard today
20 Apr 2006, 12:26 pm
Why is the depth in rugby so **** in RSA when you have more senior players than both rugby codes in Australia combined? It partly must be coaching and i hate to say it, a few RL defence coaches wouldn’t go astray at S14, CC level.
20 Apr 2006, 12:35 pm
the year the boks won the trinations was only on bonus points. their win loss record was the same as Aus and NZ.
here are my wallabies and Aus A teams
Wallabies
1. Young
2. Paul
3. Blake
4. Sharpe
5. Vickerman
6. Elsom
7. Smith
8. Lyons
9. Gregan
10. Larkham
11. Rathbone
12. Giteau
13. Mortlock
14. Tuquiri
15. Latham
16. Freier
17. Baxter (sadly)
18. Chisholm
19. Heenan
20. Cordingly
21. Mitchell
22. Rogers
Aus A
1. Holmes
2. Nau
3.
4. Kanaar
5. Campbell
6.
7. Waugh
8. Tawake
9. Sheehan
10. Norton Knight ( barnes out after super 14)
11. Gerrard
12. Staniforth
13. Turinui
14. Sailor
15. Hewat
16. Shepherdson
17. Moore
18. Wallace Harrison
19. Croft
20. Henjak (sadly)
21. Shepherd
22. Johanson
20 Apr 2006, 12:36 pm
Aus A
3. Robinson
6. Palu
20 Apr 2006, 12:36 pm
A few RL league coaches wouldn’t go astray on attack either, with some handling skills and running angles.
But we have the talent to fill 2 and maybe 3 very good sides at S14 level, the problem is when its stretched to 4 and 5 sides, and when a pool system is not used. Players like Rossouw, Spies, Van Scoewenberg, Russell, Barry, Davidson, James should not be on the bench.
Also, i have a problem with a prop like Kees Lensing not being able to play for SA, the oke is afrikaans FFS, the kiwis are able to drawn on a massive rugby pool in the PIs. A front row of Lensing- Brits-BJ is as good as anything in the game.
20 Apr 2006, 12:38 pm
Brumby,
Aus A
6. Palu 7. Waugh 8. Tawake
- superb will boost your pack big time.
20 Apr 2006, 12:40 pm
Guys, check out this site on the All Blacks :
http://stats.allblacks.com/atoz.asp?group=M
Now that is how you honor your national team and keep the young cowboys of today in perspective with their tradition and legacy.
If only our Boks got such love…
20 Apr 2006, 12:50 pm
Reckon Freier might be given a start at 2, Paul and Cannon are ****.
20 Apr 2006, 12:53 pm
cab. Paul is not ****. he was our player of the year a couple of seasons ago.
20 Apr 2006, 12:54 pm
just my opinion.
20 Apr 2006, 12:54 pm
BoksForever
looking at the stats on that sight I have to say apartheid really fucked us
20 Apr 2006, 12:55 pm
I can only laugh at some of JW critics. He is definately the best coach in SA. He’s record speaks for it self. Remember he takes the same players the S14 coach’s battle with and turn them into better players. Now tell me how is it possible for him (JW) to get best out of a player, but the Provincial coaches-who spent more time with the players can’t do ****…..
IN JAKE I TRUST!!
20 Apr 2006, 12:56 pm
agree bloem leeu, excellent coach, sure most of the players would love to play under him.
20 Apr 2006, 12:57 pm
Paul is past his best around the park, esp in the loose, and some of his set piece work leaves a lot to be desired. Teach Nau how to throw and watch him soon become the best no2 in the world.
20 Apr 2006, 12:58 pm
thought the brumbies might take the tahs, but sounds like a bit of a rout in the 2nd half, was everyone fit for the brumbies?
20 Apr 2006, 13:05 pm
Wallaby pack with more oomph
1. Young 2. Freier 3. Blake
4. Sharpe 5. Elsom
6. Palu 7. Smith 8. Tawake
9. Gregan 10. Larkham/Rogers
12. Giteau 13. Mortlock
11. Tuquiri 14. Rathbone/Dell 15. Larkham
20 Apr 2006, 13:06 pm
My Team for the 3 Nat: Form only!
15. Percy / Pietersen / vd Westhuizen (when on form is a fullback)
14. Ndungane(Bulls)/ Jantjies
13. Fourie / Cooke
12. Snyman / none of the other 12′s stood out
11. Habana / JDV
10. Pretorius / Bosman
9. Pienaar / January / Du Preez
8. Smith / AJ / Wannenburg
7. van Heerden / Watson
6. Burger / Baywatch Grobelaar
5. Matfield / van Schouenberg
4. Bakkies / Rossouw
3. BJ Botha / van der Linde
2. Brits / Smit
1. Os / Sephaka
My 5 cents
20 Apr 2006, 13:06 pm
The sharks seem to be better with depth nowadays then the other sa teams,perhaps the academy they have set is paying dividents.
20 Apr 2006, 13:08 pm
everything went pear shaped when Larkham pulled his hammy and went off.
Paul is only just back from his injury and it takes a while to get back into shape. All of the hookers in Oz struggling with throw. Nau and Saia Faiangaa will help us in the future
20 Apr 2006, 13:09 pm
elsom instead of vickermann no way.
20 Apr 2006, 13:09 pm
bloem leeu,i think butch james would make a superb NO12,we wait and see how he performs in the vodacom cup and in the currie cup,i doubt he will get a run in super 14 this year.
20 Apr 2006, 13:10 pm
Cab
Larkham went off within the 1st ten or so minutes.
Brumbies slowly unravelled from there
Second half just was the landslide of a few rocks and pebbles that started falling in the first half.
ps.
Has nobody else thought the Sharks youngster Brad Barrit is good enough to challenge Jean De Villiers for a Springbok spot?
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