Bones take a beating from Bully Boys
1 May 2006
The bones, consistently accurate in the last eight weeks, took a beating at the weekend as the Stormers and Bully Boys came good.
The bones had predicted victories for the Sharks in Pretoria, while also giving the Cheetahs and Crusaders a win. The Force were also due a historic first Vodacom Super 14 triumph.
The Sharks defeat is the most significant because it ends their play-offs challenge. The Sharks, on the road, will have more chance of success than the Bully Boys, who once again showed their brutality when playing at home. The Bully Boys on the road are more gravel than granite, but in Pretoria they have the ability to grow extra arms and legs.
The intensity of the Bulls in the first 40 minutes was the equivalent of an assault — as Sharks prop BJ Botha would no doubt tell you. The Bulls had the bonus point by halftime, but they did not have the win until the final hooter. The Sharks were given unanimous backing on this site (70 percent of the poll voted in their favour) for good reason. They are a quality side and the manner in which they fought back from 27-3 to be in a position to win the game was revealing of the improvement this season.
When the Bulls’ intensity dimmed on the hour, the Sharks started to find space and a bit of go-forward and their ability to offload in the tackle, change the line of attack and run the support runner into space troubled the Bulls defence.
The brutality of the first 40 minutes, though, was just too much for the Sharks and their championship aspirations were bloodied on Saturday night. Another whose championship could be over is the Crusaders. I know it is a big call. They lost for just the first time in 17 matches and a year ago they were as emphatically beaten in Pretoria, only to then go on and win the championship.
But they look like a side that has hit the wall in the last fortnight and the two epic encounters with the Hurricanes and Waratahs seem to have taken everything out of them. They will struggle to beat the Bulls in Pretoria and the Brumbies in Christchurch could easily do them as well, which would mean they may end up fourth on the table and needing to win twice away from home to claim the title. They’ve done it before, but rarely have they looked so out of sorts in successive weekends at this late stage of the competition.
The Stormers, for once this season, applied the blowtorch for 80 minutes and should have won by more and scored the bonus point. The Stormers pack was dominant and the Crusaders have now struggled against the Sharks and Stormers forwards. I can’t imagine them relishing the prospect of Pretoria this weekend — especially with the Bulls having to win to stay alive in the play-off race.
Crowd support this weekend was brilliant in Pretoria and very good in Cape Town, given the Stormers horror run at home. That 30 000 still made it on a cold and windy evening tells you how strong the brand is.
Individually, there were some fine performances and most of them came from established Springboks. The Bulls lock pairing of Bakkies Botha and Victor Matfield were colossal, Pedrie Wannenburg has been the most consistent South African loose-forward all season, Schalk Burger was huge in Cape Town and Gary Botha and John Smit enjoyed a hectic 80 minute struggle in the front row.
Andre Pretorius showed more confidence against the Force, but again his goalkicking was not good enough, while Meyer Bosman would have backed himself to kick the conversion to sink the Blues.
The most pleasing aspect of this weekend’s matches is that every South African team played for 80 minutes, probably for the first time this season. The Bulls and Sharks were hammering away at each other on the siren, the Cats kept the ball for two minutes after the siren to score a match-saving try, while the Cheetahs also retained possession for two minutes after the siren to score a try that put them in a position to win it.
And in Cape Town the Stormers went in front after 30 seconds and never let up.
It was a heart-warming weekend for SA teams and while it won’t be reflected in Super 14 silverware, we could see the results in the international season.
243 Comments
1 May 2006, 09:42 am
Yep agree Keo, Cant wait for the Tri Nations to start. Only problem is the centre combination??? What to do what to do
1 May 2006, 09:45 am
don’t know about unanimous backing, the bulls at loftus are a tall order for any team.
Stormers result was fantastic, could be interesting to see what that win does to their chances against the Sharks next week.
1 May 2006, 10:03 am
Great weekend. Just some question:
1. Manuels. The notorious TMO did highlited his incompitence once again. He needed a help from Doug Howlet to make a right decision. One can argue that it could go cheetahs way, may be the timing is the question. But Manuels made fool of himself again. He is so incompitent that he is affraid to meke decisions. HOW LONG WILL WE HAVE HIM AROND?
2. Liebenberg (spelling cheetahs hooker). Someone tell him that he’d better thing of not celebration but making it easier for the kicker to convert your try. His celebration cost his team a win. WHAT IS WITH ALL THOSE CELEBRATION? ARE RUGBY PLAYERS BECOMMING SOCCER PLAYERS (CELEBRATIONS, KISSING, HUGS ETC.)?
3. Kaplan. Everytime Kaplan officiates the bulls he wants to yeloowcard them. We have seen worse offence without yellow card awarded. And How brutal Stayn can be? WHAT IS WRONG WITH KAPLAN’S RELATION TO THE BULLS?
4. Sharks fans. After reading the whole last week how Sharks are going to murder, ahniliate, crash the bulls. DO SHARKS FANS HAVE EVOUGH GUTS TO SHOW UP THIS SITE, EAT THEIY HUMBLE PIE AND ADMIT THAT BULLS ARE BETTER TEAM?
1 May 2006, 10:04 am
Keo
I reckon the Sharks fightback was more the result of Heynekes’ changes than an improvement in their own game. The Bulls totally dominated them and did’t allow them to play in the first half . If the same Bulls players had stayed on longer it would have been a massacre.
1 May 2006, 10:23 am
David
The fact of the matter is they did not stay on and the Sharks looked and finished the game in the ascendancy. It’s the same as me saying that if the Bulls started with this line-up then the Sharks would have won – they didn’t. And give the Sharks their due, they did win the second 40 minutes of the game, which shows you that they are a quality team. Not many would have shown the character come back after those first 40 minutes.
Now listen to me preaching to you, and me not even being a Bulls or Sharks supporter.
Amen…..
1 May 2006, 10:44 am
The Bulls once again made the mistake of relaxing. The Sharks played some enterprising rugby but had the Bulls stayed at the same intensity levels they would not have come close. Unfortunately that is the case with all our teams. Once well up they cannot deliver the killer blow. This thing also carries through to the Boks. That old addage how you practise is how you play is true.
1 May 2006, 10:45 am
It is very quiet here today. Is it because of the holiday or all the Sharks supporters hiding?
1 May 2006, 10:48 am
the bulls had an awesome first 40 – but lets not get carried away here – they are a shadow of the team that reached the semi’s last year.
the bulls chucked it this year, and its a shame – if they did not chuck the points against the reds, chiefs, blues, and force, they would have topped the log after saturday’s win.
now that would have been very sweet wouldn’t it.
1 May 2006, 10:50 am
ciccino – you don’t like making it easy to understand your posts do you?
1 May 2006, 10:57 am
What a wonderfull weekend of rugby from the South African teams. We are in for a very good international season. I think Jake will have alot of tallent to pick from and we will have a strong steady bok team. Oustanding play by some of the players we been writing off so far. All of a sudden they are back and things are looking good. Lets hope all the players stay injury free. Oustanding play by the Bulls at home. Stomers suprised all of us. But it was good to see them win again.
1 May 2006, 11:06 am
Yes, things are way too quiet.
If there is one thing to get SA fans at one another’s throats, it’s Bok selection.
I posted this after Saturday’s game.
_____
So who should be in the Bok squad?
http://sarugbyview.blogspot.com
We’re getting close to that time of the season again. And Bok “selectors†everywhere are getting tense about who deserves the green and gold.
Here’s my early selection with second choices in brackets.
First Choice Second Choice
1. JD Moller – Stormers [Lawrence Sephaka - Cats]
2. John Smit – Sharks [Gary Botha - Bulls]
3. BJ Botha – Sharks [Eddie Andrews - Stormers]
4. Bakkies Botha – Bulls [Johan Ackerman - Sharks]
5. Victor Matfield – Bulls [Ross Skeate - Stormers]
6. Luke Watson – Stormers [Wikus van Heerden - Cats]
7. Schalk Burger – Stormers [Juan Smith - Cheetahs]
8. Pedrie Wannenberg – Bulls [Joe van Niekerk - Stormers]
9. Ruan Pienaar – Sharks [Fourie du Preez - Bulls]
10. Jaco van der Westhuyzen – Bulls [Meyer Bosman - Cheetahs]
11. Bryan Habana – Bulls [Odwa Ndungane - Sharks]
12. De Wet Barry – Stormers [Wynand Olivier - Bulls]
13. Jaque Fourie – Cats [JP Nel - Bulls]
14. Breyton Paulse – Clermont [Akona Ndungane - Bulls]
15. Percival Montgomery – Sharks [Bevin Fortuin - Cheetahs]
I’ve tried to follow Jake White’s logic of considering the incumbent and the impact of their team and Super 14 positional selections on their performance. I have also condsidered the incumbent in Joe van Niekerk’s case – he has played to little rugby to be included purely on form – although he is beginning to look good.
At front row I think I’ll be caned by some for leaving out OS, but I believe JD Moller has won aclaim from opposing sides. BJ Botha is the popular new cap on the other side of the scrum. Many will feel Sephaka and Andrews are quota selections as reserves, but I have been impressed with their recent form. I also believe Sephaka has not had enough starting game time. He looked particularly good against the Force.
Ross Skeate is selected out of position (5 instead of 4) as cover for Victor Matfield – but that is because I see them as similar players – modern athletic locks.
Johan Ackerman is a great backup for Bakkies – imagine playing 60 minutes against Bakkies and the Ackerman comes on – there’s some “enforcer†for you!
Combinations are important. Besides this, I think that starting combination of Luke Watson and Schalk Burger are deserved in their own right. Both have played with 80 minute commitment every match. Pedrie Wannenberg breaks the provincial combination as starting eigth man – he has been immense for the Bulls.
Ruan Pienaar makes my starting scrumhalf spot – he is a huge talent. Fourie du Preez makes reserve as an incumbent.
Flyhalf is tough because we have not seen Jaco van der Westhuysen play there domestically. But his touches look good from fullback, and Jake picked him from Japan as flyhalf previously. It is a tough call for reserve flyhalf, but Andre Pretorius has played in a losing side and Meyer Bosman is the incumbent “future†player.
Centres – what a headache! No one has set the world alight this season. Barry has started playing again since being dropped from 13 and then returning at 12. He gets the spot as incumbent and with a glimmer of hope. Jacques Foruie gets 13 – without us seeing him there for the Cats. You know what they say about class and form – hopefully it’s true. The Bulls pairing get the reserve spots. One has to worry about creativity here though. If only Habana had some game time at centre. There is no place for De Villiers based on his utterly inept defensive performance this Super 14. Joubert might have class, but his form is so long gone that he cannot make this squad. I somehow think Jake White will go with the incumbents though.
I would take a pasting on the Keo boards for my wings, but I think they’re deserved. Habana picks himself. Paulse’s experience in France could be huge factor for the world cup. I have no idea how well he has played for Clermont though. He makes the spot as incumbent. Akona Ndungane has showed hunger and commitment with flair on attack for the Bulls. Odwa Ndungane makes my reserve spot together with him showing similar hunger and flair to that of his twin brother.
Monty has had a quiet Super 14. He hasn’t exactly done anything wrong, but he needs to look to join the line more on attack for the Boks. Fortuin is another new cap as reserve – he’s tried hard for the Cheetahs and looked good.
1 May 2006, 11:15 am
Alibaba
Neither am I. I was just trying to point out that when Heyneke decided that the game was won and pulled off players he allowed the Sharks in. What should be worrying the Sharks is that up until that point they were totally outplayed by the Bulls 1st choice side.
Ciccino
Steyns first warning was an identical tackle to the one de Wet was yellow carded for.
I agree totally with you about Liebenburg. I was also wondering what he was up to not going closer to the posts. I think Rassie might have something to say to him.
1 May 2006, 11:19 am
Storm_saam, not a bad team.
Juan Smith must be in the starting lineup though. Os still has lots to offer and Odwa is no where near international standards yet.
There’s still space for JDV at 12 I think. Barry IMO is our 3rd choice 12, behind JDV and Olivier.
Paulse, no way, Jake will play him but his lack of pace is still a problem for me.He was average in France if you ever saw him play too.
1 May 2006, 11:26 am
stormsaam,
not bad, but Os is still JW’s first choice at 1. Think loose trio has to be Burger, Smith and AJ. Agree Barry at 12, but JdV on the wing instead of Paulse.
1 May 2006, 11:28 am
i never believe in playing guys in positions they are not regarded as the best.
or let me put it this way, why play a guy in another position just to accommodate another player that has performed well?
for that reason alone i will not play schalk at 7, he is my 6 and that is it, luke has been brilliant recently and is beginning to regain the form that he had at the sharks which is great – but he is not in schalk’s class as an opensider.
as to my number 7, juan was brilliant before he got injured, so it is not a joe scenario who has not been at his best for quite some time. joe is looking hungry again which is great for us, but lets see if he can string two more performances like that together against the best in SA at the moment. then he can be considered a serious contender.
juan, if fit will definately slot in at 7.
i also rate pedrie highly, but AJ deserves a mention here. but you also have to option of bringing AJ on as impact player later on. i guess who you start with will depend on conditions and opposition.
in fact, a loose trio of schalla, juan and pedrie has a very nice ring to it.
my ideas and theories on inside backs and centers are a bit different than the norm, so i will not comment on that. but your choices are logical but conservative.
if jaco bring his form of 2004 with him that backline might just gel.
os for moller. you cannot buy experience, os has this and moller not, os in fact looks very good at the moment and play for very long periods.
sephaka has not set the world alight but i guess you can blame ludeke for that seeing he was almost never picked.
from what i saw of van schouwenburg i would have him there and there abouts as-well. skeate seems to disappear against good opposition.
ruan is also very vulnerable defensively which is why he will not be my number one choice. your channel one defence is important. fourie, although performing at 70% from what we know he can will still get the nod.
ruan, with neil who is regaining form gives us enough depth. bolla also had a good start to the S14.
ndungane (bulls) above paulse but this is a toss up for me too. experience is vital but we also have to consider form, don’t know what form breyton was in recently.
1 May 2006, 11:31 am
LS:
I think Juan Smith and Luke Watson could be rotated and their game time managed.
I’m not sure Os has ever really fully recovered from a leg injury sustained last year.
I don’t think Odwa’s far off it. His pace and workrate is great. WHat all our wings need though is positional sense, and I guess that’s where Odwa needs some work.
I can’t see JDV at 12 after his performance there for the Stormers. Barry looks a different player since returning there. Clearly Barry;s strength is not his creativity but we should take NZ’s lead and bring our wings through that channel on the loop to create space.
I haven’t seen Paulse – as indicated. His pace looked better in the latter games he played last year. But as indicated, I think JW will pick him as the incumbent and due to his French experience.
1 May 2006, 11:39 am
PA / LS:
Obviously, bringing Juan on means Burger can go openside.
I think his game at blind-side has improved though – he seems to have upped the aggression and is running better support patterns.
AJ has shown experience and commitment this season. But now and again still has a brain explosion – his charge into a Blues players’ kidneys evidences this. I’d still give BJ the nod. If he continues his upward trend and expands the form to his attack, he’ll be tops.
I also think De Kock has played two awesome games recently (Chiefs and Crusaders) but Fourie gets my nod as a wet-weather backup to Ruan. Ruan gets my top-spot through sheer talent. But I think that the game situation might dictate who you put on.
1 May 2006, 11:46 am
schalk is okay on the blindside, he is brilliant on the openside.
luke can definately be his back-up.
we really do not have that many 8th men who put their hands up – this is a concern.
if ruan ups his defence, he is up there, but for now, too many shortcomings in his game to be first choice.
i disagree on AJ, i think he has been a revelation this year. plus he can back up lock and loosie.
1 May 2006, 11:46 am
and take my word, i am no fan of AJ.
1 May 2006, 11:47 am
PA – Schalk, Juan and Pedrie is also a very real possibility. All quite similar players though. Burger is more in your face, whereas Juan and Pedrie are both rangey-ball carriers.
1 May 2006, 11:47 am
Ruan was annonimous this weekend. Talented but still much to learn. FDP is the best allround N9 at present.
1 May 2006, 11:49 am
Plenty of options, but will interesting to see what JW does in the NH conditions.
1 May 2006, 11:50 am
cab,
i know, that is why personally i believe pedrie would be a brilliant loosie (7) with joe/AJ at the back.
1 May 2006, 11:51 am
Most scrumhalves become anonymous behind beaten packs! The way the Bulls played this last weekend, it would have taken a miracle for Ruan to look good!
PA – to bring in AJ, are you saying you’d leave out Joe, Luke or Pedrie?
1 May 2006, 11:53 am
I think AJ is earmarked for the bench as backup for 7,8 and Bakkies. Schalk, Juan and Joe will start with Pedrie as backup for AJ.
I doubt whether JdeV will lose 12 with de Wet on the bench and JdeV to wing if needed. Jake is too confident of his defensive pattern to believe Jean is a weak link.
Jake has an interesting problem with the front row. Sephaka and Eddie have been tried at 3 because of a lack of a genuine tighthead which solved Jakes quota problems. BJ, as a genuine 3 specialist screws up Jakes options for more black representation.
Because of this I think we’ll see Ricky at 9 and Solly or Dulane thrown into the mix.
We might also see JP Pietersen on the bench as backup for fullback or wing instead of Julies.
1 May 2006, 11:57 am
David:
If I were to change my selection of Odwa above, I’d bring in JP Pietersen for him.
I rate Solly – but given the performance of the others above and debate about bringing in AJ – together with lack of game time, I think it’s tough to pick him.
1 May 2006, 11:57 am
Pedrie should be in the starting line up.
He has played very good rugby all season, and is faster and fitter than AJ.
1 May 2006, 11:59 am
storm,
if joe performs agains the sharks and bulls as he has done recently he will be my first choice 8.
juan first choice 7 with pedrie as back-up
schalk and luke taking care of #6
if joe fades, it is a toss up between AJ and pedrie on who you will start at 8, the other one to come off the bench – this will depend against which opposition you play and also conditions.
1 May 2006, 12:00 pm
only if he hands his cell-phone in at the captains practice stan!
1 May 2006, 12:02 pm
AJ, like david said, is possibly best coming off the bench since he can cover so many positions.
i’ll reserve comment about joe until he is up against pedrie and AJ in the next two weeks.
he has the best opportunity possible to prove he should be first choice 8.
1 May 2006, 12:07 pm
Forget Ruan Pienaar as an option.
JW has invested heavily in Conradie,Januarie and DuPreez.He’s not going to throw away the past 2 seasons work.
If anything Pienaar has shown in the past 2 weeks that he has absolutely no tactical game in his repoitoire and his kicking out of hand is shocking.He was subbed against the Blues and Bulls very early.
Like Faan Rautenback….I fancy BJ Botha and Ackerman’s international aspirations may well be buried at Loftus.
1 May 2006, 12:07 pm
If Joe is fit he is the best N8 in the country if not Pedrie is the next and AJ as utility forward. Luke is too inconsistent Schalk is better option at N6, and Juan or Cronje at 7.
1 May 2006, 12:09 pm
Storm
I was including Solly and Dulane because Jake has to maintain his commitment to including a higher proportion of black players. I think we’ll see one or both used in rotation with Schalk.
1 May 2006, 12:09 pm
PissAnt Schalk Burger is JUST NOT FAST ENOUGH to be an international class openside.
He is nowhere near as fast to the breakdown as guys like McCaw, George Smith, Phil Waugh or even Neil Back. A HUGE FAILING in SA rugby – playing TOO LARGE and TOO SLOW players on the openside. This has been identified here in the NZ press as a major weakness of SA teams (and rugby fans here are amazed that SA continues with this FAILED ploy. Most SA coaches and fans just don’t get it. Schalk arrives at the breakdown two or three seconds behind his Australasian counterparts.
Now Luke Watson – now you’re talking. An openside of international class. Has the potential to do for SA what Neil Back did for England. In the early days some in the England camp thought that Neil was too small, but he soon proved his worth and became a regular in the England team for almost a decade, was a major reason for the 2003 world cup success.
Luke could do the same for SA. Mallet realises this. Now Jake White needs to be enlightened.
1 May 2006, 12:14 pm
Ciccino I am one of those Sharks fans you refer to.
I give the BULLS credit for a GREAT performance on the day. But NOT FOR ONE SECOND do I believe that their brand of rugby will work consistently or lead to success away from home.
The Sharks however could go on to WIN THE S14 (in future years) if they persist with this exciting style, a mix of powerful forwards and backs who have the skill and confidence to move the ball around the field and run a variety of angles on attack.
1 May 2006, 12:14 pm
Delek
Jake won’t realise it because he believes in the doctrin of ‘a Good Big one will always beat a Good Little one’ …
1 May 2006, 12:15 pm
For me it is a straight selection between AJ or Cronje.No need for them both in a squad with so many versatile backrow options.
AJ is more experienced but a sicknote and as St.M ,so often, annoyingly but truthfully points out…..a perrenial loser.
Cronje is younger, I’ve yet to see him injured and part of a winning culture.
But hey….I’m a Bull, don’t believe anything I say.
PS: Don’t be suprised to see Luke Watson lose out to affirmative action. Dlulane to replace Solly in the mix. Albeit, I’d be far more comfortable seeing Dlulane start than see Solly T start.
1 May 2006, 12:15 pm
PA, not a big fan of pedrie, but he has played well, there is only 1 position for him tho for the boks, no. 8. This is who i’d select from for each position if we were to adopt an NZ-type stategy of more specialised flanker positions.
6 (openside fecther)
Burger, Wickus (personally i’d pick Grobelaar and Henro over Watson, think Baywatch is the best 6 in SA but thats probably Vaalie bias)
7 (blinside ball-carrier enforcer)
AJ, Cronje and Rossouw
8. (8th man – mixes qualities of 6 and 7)
Smith, Wannenburg and big Joe
1 May 2006, 12:20 pm
David (33)
I think that problem takes care of itself with the selection of wings and props.
Lawrie and Eddie have both played both sides of the scrum – so give versatility. Eddie is also beginning to play like a Bok for a change.
If you do go for a black loosie, I’d certainly go with Dlulane after this weekend against the Sharks – he was immense.
With wings, you can easily pick four black wings on merit.
The above squad has 7 out of 30 black players on merit.
If you increase that, where do you go? Shimange instead of Gary Botha? Dlulane instead of Luke? It all becomes a bit difficult.
Naas was talking up AD Jacobs – but I think he is kuk. Defensively frail. Jantjies has class but has had no real chance to show anything in the Cats – and who would he take out Fortuin, so that doesn’t help.
1 May 2006, 12:20 pm
Delek
“But not for one second do I believe that their brand of rugby will work consistantly or lead to success”
3 out of 4 of the last CC’s.
S12
2003…..6th
2004…..5th
2005…..3rd
2006….???
When all is said and done, not to bad is it?
In fact, the Natal team of the 90′s took a decade to do what the Bulls have done in 4 years?
1 May 2006, 12:21 pm
delek,
i would like to see time over 10 and 40 meters before i would entertain that thought.
luke has done brilliantly well in the last couple of games and the boy has certainly put in some hours if you look at how he bulked up.
somehow i would tend to disagree on schalk’s speed, he is everywhere, not only come ruck time but in defence as-well where luke is somehow anonymous.
cab,
smith at 8?
i would swop your 7 and 8′s
1 May 2006, 12:23 pm
Adi Jacobs….like Brent Russel, is great in broken play.
Internationl structure and defences…….don’t think so?
1 May 2006, 12:24 pm
Cubicz that doctine SUCKS!! Used by many coaches to justify leaving out excellent smaller players such as Luke Watson and playing instead a crash ball, no risk 1950′s style of rugby.
Thanks for reminding me of that and helping to REV me up
1 May 2006, 12:25 pm
Luke Watson looked pumped up last Saterday.
That boy is the pack leader.Forget Britz and Van Niekerk.(Burger is never lead…he is unleashed)
Also, why does everyone consider Skeate the “soft” lock option in a hard/soft combination.
He looked pretty hard to me?
1 May 2006, 12:27 pm
just watched the bulls sharks game. bully boys, well done. in the first half the bulls would have beaten any team in the super 14. too bad for my sharks but the better team won on the day. sharks showed balls to not give up.
it was no shame to lose that game. the bulls were awesome, it just pisses me off that they cant always play like that.
1 May 2006, 12:28 pm
StP:
Probably for the same reason Matfield is the soft option in the Bakkies/Matfield combination – it’s all relative!
I must say, for a lock as young as Skeate, he has some fantastic career ahead of him.
1 May 2006, 12:28 pm
I think it comes down to the same style that the Bull’s use compared to the Sharks with forward domination verse running into gaps or space.
I mean if you watched the England Oz game last year at twickenham the Pom’s should have thumped the Ozzies by at least 40 points … unfortunately their backline had the same skill level of the Bulls and they only won the game in the last 5-7 minutes through brute force.
The change will only come in SA rugby when the fans realise this too …
ps have you worked out what my blogg name means?
1 May 2006, 12:31 pm
PissAnt some of Schalk’s games in NZ last year (when he played openside) were analysed on the Reunion Rugby show and he was truly slow to the breakdown. He is too bulky to be a really effective openside.
Look at the effective international opensides of the last fifteen years or so – from Michael Jones to Josh Kronfeld and the others I mentioned earlier, they all had athletic but NOT BULKY frames and were superfast. SA just has not been trying to develop this kind of player, probably because of the ‘larger syndrome’ that Cubicz refers to above.
1 May 2006, 12:34 pm
SA’s best openside flankers over the last 10 years have been Rassie Erasmus and Ruben Kruger …
1 May 2006, 12:34 pm
PA, reckon Smith can play 7 if Burger is at 6, but in NH conditions would make a very good 8. Great hand-off, good vision, athletic, better hands than Cronje – think its his ideal position, especially if one wants to accomadate AJ or Cronje at 7.
Musn’t underestimate the role of big ball carriers, look at the roles Worsely and Corry play for England, Collins for NZ, White for Scotland, Lyons for Oz (Palu and Tawake for NSW and Brumbies). Not necessarily the fastest blokes, but add alot of momentum to the pack and maul.
1 May 2006, 12:34 pm
St Petersburg the Bulls have done VERY WELL in SA. No arguments. But this style of play will not lead the Bulls or the Boks to international success. Don’t doubt it. The last ten years have shown this OVER AND OVER AND OVER again.
1 May 2006, 12:36 pm
Delek
I’m tired of that “onedimentional” label. It was true when Derrik “the statue” was at 10. But with Morne… either we are watching different games or you have no clue about rugby.
Cab,
Russow at 7 …. no pleaase how many times has Danie to prove that he is a good lock and Bad flanker.
1 May 2006, 12:36 pm
PS:
Because Skeate had a huge game and pretty much ruled the lineout…..can we assume that Skalk Britz can now throw?
1 May 2006, 12:37 pm
Ruben was as good as Kronfeld, Smith Waugh etc. A GREAT player. Rassie too was not too shabby, although sometimes used on the blindside I think.
1 May 2006, 12:37 pm
Delek
How can you blame the Bulls for SA’s past 10 years of failure?
What the **** was everyone else doing?
1 May 2006, 12:40 pm
StP
I disagree with Delek. For the first time on Saturday the Bulls looked like they were playing as a 15 man side and Dulane adds a different dimension to their play.
I somehow feel that a lot of their travelling problems might be caused by their over reliance on a powerful pack.
Not only are the big guys having to acclimatise but they’re also expected to carry the responsibility of winning the game.
I bet at the team meetings the focus is mainly on the forwards.
By playing more expansively they are spreading the responsibility (and workload) amongst all 15 players.
1 May 2006, 12:40 pm
StP
I don’t think Delek is blaming the Bulls, what he is saying is that the SA coaching staff have not trusted the team to play more expansie rugby, nor to run into space rather than into the biggest opponent that they can find!
Most SA teams play conservative rugby with the odd game being very expansive.
1 May 2006, 12:43 pm
StP:
Britz is shaky as a thrower – JW’s got that right.
Despite Skeate’s performance, the Stormers lost at least three on their own throw to the Crusaders in the first half because of pathetic throwing.
If Britz could throw consistently well he’d be my number two ahead of Gary Botha.
I’m not sure about his scrumming vs Botha – it’s only really possible to judge that based on opposition comment (and occasional Phil Kearns hype).
1 May 2006, 12:45 pm
David
I said as much a couple weeks ago.Small things that the Bulls usually do well are retuning to their game.
Protecting the ball in the contact situation.
Forwards carrying the ball over the advantage line 2 at a time.
And there is no debate about Steyn.This kid knows how to get his backs away and Olivier is turning into a quality center.
1 May 2006, 12:47 pm
Agree entirely with Delek #39. SA coaches persist with these behemoths who seldom get to the loose ball first. It IS a weakness.
If would be a tragedy if a frustrated Watson was lured away. He’d be good enough for any other international side.
1 May 2006, 12:47 pm
It’s bedtime. Look forward to continuing the debate soon…
1 May 2006, 12:47 pm
Delek,
If you want speed to the breakdown, they dont come faster than Joe Van Niekerk. The guy would burn any of the current “fetchers” in the game and most of the backs. His sprint times are astounding as are Tybilika’s.
However, that does not necessarily make a good fetcher. Hill and Betsen do not have speed, but what seperated them was their mongrel, their sheer competitivity at the breakdown, this is what Burger does so well. Hill and Betsen also have tremenous upper body strength (as do Waugh and Smith) in arresing the ball from the oppo and retaining it in the tackle, Watson has been criticied for a lack of this in the past. Mallet and White have tried to change him from a ball carrier (where he was viewed as light) into a specialist fetcher. He is doing well, but he needs to show at least one full season of consistent performances (not just talk the talk and pull determined faces). Also, its one thing to measure him on these so-called “positive contributions”, but a true opensider is meaured on his turnovers and tackle count (i.e. workrate). McCaw is not any faster than Burger, but he is the most refined exponent of specialised fecther play today.
David, totally agree that Dlulance should be playing all their away games and looks to have done very well at home too.
Okes – just cos a particular style of play is unattractive or doesn’t suit your own preferences, doesn’t make it ineffective. In fact, quite often the opposite. The current world champs base their game around a dominant pack. The poms totally destroyed every pack in 2003 including NZ with only 13 players on the park. I now need a shower.
1 May 2006, 12:48 pm
cheers Delek, ha ha, yes another time.
1 May 2006, 12:48 pm
Britz may have missed a couple jumpers with skew throws…..but John Smit missed just about everyone.Including a Sharks attacking lineout on the Bulls 5 meter line with onlyt a few minutes to go.The Sharks only started winning lineouts when the Bulls stopped competing for them.
Gary Botha also missed a couple throws to the back I think,albeit they may have been knocked on.
1 May 2006, 12:48 pm
Oops. Delek#34
1 May 2006, 12:49 pm
sorry Hill=Back
1 May 2006, 12:52 pm
Also,
to negate the Botha/Matfield factor at lineout time….Jon Smit threw to the back of the lineout a lot.Not a very good idea when 6’1 Wannenburg and 6’4 Cronje are there.
More often than not they turned into long passes to Olivier:grin:
1 May 2006, 12:53 pm
StP
I think Jake phoned Heyneke and told him to give his captain a chance.
1 May 2006, 12:58 pm
Cab surely McCaw is faster than Burger. He must be. Now it’s definitely sleep time.
1 May 2006, 13:01 pm
i said last week if the bulls can play ’12′ man rugby they will beat the sharks.
this they did, like StP pointed out their protection at the breakdown was phenominal and the sharks simply could not get their hands on the ball.
given steyn’s display to get his line away effectively and good running in the midfield where in my view the sharks was vulnerable was the perfect plan to employ.
they are not the total 15 man team yet but i tell you what – the bulls are closer to the complete 15 man game than any other team in SA.
sharks and cheetahs not too far behind but their lack of experience is what counts against them currently.
if the cheetahs and sharks build on what we have seen this year and in the CC last year (cheetahs) SA rugby is looking very healty!
i would however like to see both the stormers and bulls get a real leader. in my mind, that is the only thing they are missing.
as for the locks, i read yesterday quinten davids is on his way to bloem…
where there is a real lack of depth though and an area which worries me it is flyhalf.
any idea how butch played this weekend past, anyone watch the game?
and another interesting point about the bulls sharks game is how the sharks seem to be a different team with monty at flyahlf?
that was quite interesting to me.
and also, barrit made an immediate impact when he took the field, this youngster is going to become a great bok.
1 May 2006, 13:07 pm
Burger does not have the speed of some of the other SA loosies, but he has run in his share of tries for WP. My point, McCaw strength is not his speed. One of the quicker fecthers accross the track is probably Croft (reds), but he’s often cleaned up for being too light.
1 May 2006, 13:08 pm
I don’t believe it was Montgomery that was the catalyst for the Sharks near come back……it was Brent Russel and to a lesser extent Barrit and Jacobs(?) who where given carte blanche to play basketball style rugby.
The only sort of rugby that 5 footers will succeed in withregards to international competition.
And before anyone says it…..Giteau is an exception and truethfully has done little for the Wallabies if one bears in mind he was dropped last season if I remember correctly.
1 May 2006, 13:10 pm
i agree cab,
a good fetcher is not only speed, it is how effectively you clean out the ruck or compete for the ball.
like any position your all-round game needs to be up there.
what good is a fly-half if he only has a great boot?
in the same way i rate schalk, and his work-rate as someone mentioned before as key ingedients why he is the best in SA.
1 May 2006, 13:13 pm
For me the Steyn – Olivier combo is the X-factor that the Bulls were missing. Also switching Pedrie and Cronje around. Jaco can ambush from the back.
The Steyn-Hougaard debate is be settled now. Morne and Jaco should be first-choices to wear the Bulls No 10 shirt.
1 May 2006, 13:13 pm
The revival of the sharks was due the fact that bulls alowed them to turn the 2 half into loose unstructured basketball tipe of game. The same mistakes were mad at hte end of the games against brumbies and Hurricanes. Here I would like again ask the abilities of Matfield as captain to make his troops to concentrate on their gameplan.
1 May 2006, 13:14 pm
PA:
I have always rated Monty as a flyhalf.
He was played there for a while at WP. I always thought he could have been given some more time.
I believe Monty is a flyhalf that straightens the line (very rare in SA). Mainly because he is cood at running off the ball, floating a good long pass and passing off a good inside step.
But I think Grant and Olivier have genuine potential. Both are confidence players and very young. Mallet rates them highly too.
I think Hougaard is underrated – he just stand too deep in the pocket.
1 May 2006, 13:16 pm
citizenc
I just wish HM could agree with us on Morne. Somehow HM has blind love and overloyalty towards Derrik same as Drunkmonkey on this site.
1 May 2006, 13:19 pm
cic,
i don’t believe (steyn / hougaard) the debate is finished.
again, do not underestimate front foot ball and game-plans. the bulls had the clear intention of keeping ball in hand to keep the ball away from the sharks and obviously trying to avoid a basketball type game as StP refers to.
we have a real problem at 10 in my view. apart from jaco and AP, there is really not one guy that stands out as the next carter, honnibal or wilkenson.
they are all the same for me with the one guy being slightly better in one aspect of his play than the next.
1 May 2006, 13:21 pm
and by that i am not saying jaco or AP is even close to carter, not at all.
1 May 2006, 13:23 pm
Ciccino
The Bulls also gave away a host of penalties in the 2nd half that gave the Sharks easy possesion especially when the Bulls stopped competing in the lineouts.
For me, Matfield is turning into a decent Captain.
From a captaincy perspective he played a fantastic final 5 minutes.Linout steal from the Sharks on the Bulls 5 meter line = fantastic mental lift for the Bulls players.
Penalty awarded to the Bulls with a couple minutes to go.Kick into Sharks territory.Easy throw to the front of the lineout.Two or three phases of forward rucking = clock runs down and hooter goes…end of game.
1 May 2006, 13:25 pm
exactly right about Scalk PA, ppl often critise him for the not being effective in carrying the ball up and being a headless chicken, but he’s job is not to carry the ball up, that what the 7 and 8 do. Schalk does have this ability, but he’s strngth are his competitiveness, body strength in arresting the ball (hence his squirms which ppl say is inneffective) and has stamina in getting through so many tackles. He is a great opensider.
Specialist fecthers, those that make dedicated turnovers are very rare, especially in SA. This is an art form we are yet to master to the degree of players like McCaw and George Smith. Besides, I think Burger is still out most successful player at winning turnover ball.
1 May 2006, 13:26 pm
PissAnt,
Ball in hand is exactly what you want in order to win matches specially in S14. Steyn has been much better then Derrik in this regard.
In my memory Steyn has played in 2 lost games, both of them the whole team underperformed and it would be silly to blame him. He is still 21 and given time and good coaching he can become best 10 in Sa.
1 May 2006, 13:31 pm
Interestingly enough…..
In the Brumby side it looks as if George Smith plays openside only on opposition feed and 8th man for Brumby feed.
With the Bulls, Cronje also has a very specific role…..he plays first receiver setting up good 2nd phase ball.Exactly the same role that JW was using Skalk Burger for a while back.
1 May 2006, 13:31 pm
Monty is a bit sluggish these days at fullback, but looked the goods at flyhalf in the second half against the bulls.
Jake could alternate Monty and Jaco (in my view better at fullback) as Bok squad flyhalves/fullbacks while easing in Meyer Bosman. Pretorius remains first choice. This should get us through WC 2007.
The dark horse is Butch James. I’ve always rated him and would be chuffed if he can play himself back into contention.
1 May 2006, 13:33 pm
St. Petersburgbok,
I am not convinced that he is a great captain. His lineout steal was not becouse of his captancy but ‘cose he is the best lineout lock. Last penalty decision agreed good one. But he should have strangled guys, made them focused to play more structured game after sharks scored their first try like Martin Johnson used to do for Eng, or lecester for example.
Don’t know… I still remember games against Force and Reds where great captain would do the job done, Matfield didn’t.
1 May 2006, 13:34 pm
True…Butch James was developing nicely a few seasons back but after 2 operations and 2 seasons out I’d be suprised to see him get back to his best.
1 May 2006, 13:36 pm
cic,
that he has the talent is not being disputed at all – he is talented no doubt.
what i am saying the bulls more often than not play to a game plan where they want to kick the ball behind the opposition and force line-outs inside the oppositions half with their great locks.
it is a game plan they can employ effectively too and something they have done very well in the past.
last week’s game this was not really the game plan. i think because HM believed the sharks will be super competitive at the line out hence they decided to keep the ball in hand more.
if the bulls do not rate their opponents in the forward department and especially at the line-out, you will see them kicking the ball behind the back three and put major pressure on them in order to win a line out in the oppo’s half and attack or maul from there.
both game plans comes with risks and you choose the best one depending on the opposition. you would for instances use the kicking plan against teams like the hurricanes who has dangerous backs and is not a team you would want to run into all the time in the midfield or around channel 1, but the bulls realised that the sharks midfield defence is not as hot as their pack. so run into them and protect posession, sooner or later they are going to run out of defenders.
it was amazing how in-effective the sharks loosies were though – that surprised me a bit.
i said earlier the bulls are probably the closest team in SA when it comes to employing the complete 15 man game.
1 May 2006, 13:36 pm
The specialist fetcher is the result of the rules of the modern game. I’m not saying they didn’t exist before but the combination of skills and physical ability to steal the ball while staying on your feet is an unusual one that needs a combination of speed, upperbody and leg strength combined with timing.
Before the new rules you just had to be fast or strong enough to smother the ball before the opposition could get it.
I think it’s taken a while for this to permeate down to our youngsters.
1 May 2006, 13:38 pm
There too many people on this site what I call ‘emotional sisters’.
One weekend we have a bad result and we want to knock someones block off then the next weekend all is good and we are world champions.
Morons! I say of you lot. I THINK MOST OF YOU ARE TOO CLOSELY RELATED TO THE ENGLISH.
1 May 2006, 13:38 pm
Cinnio
Lets not forget it’s his first real season as Captain, he’s an intelligent player who analyzes opposition lineouts….I’m sure he is doing work analyzing his own leadership performances.I can only see him being better off for all those narrow defeats earlier on.
I was pleased to see how he has had the confidence to chirp the ref.This is usually a tell tale sign withregards to a player who is aware of the game situation.
1 May 2006, 13:41 pm
and you have been in oz to long.
1 May 2006, 13:41 pm
citizenc,
agreed Jaco is way better fullback then flyhalf. But that means we have seriouse problem at 10.
Mongomerie – still a question is he good enough to play 10 in a test, Pretorius – way too inconsistent, can be great one day and disapear the other (just recall his game against Bulls fortnight ago), Bossman – never realy showed that quality that JW saw in him (apart from Stormers game).
I would love to see Steyn introdused to the bok culture. He has been great for the U21 may be he could be answear to the bok’s problems. You can’t tell unless you tryed him.
1 May 2006, 13:42 pm
1 May 2006, 13:44 pm
Meyer Bosman should be playing 12.
He has a fantastic range of passing skills and physic to boot.I hesitate to say that he may well be a little immature mentally to play flyhalf in top tier rugby.
Develope him at 12 before moving him to 10.
1 May 2006, 13:47 pm
BokinOzzie
You’re way too emotional and have missed the point entirely. Had a long day with the XXXXs?
This whole site is about emotional therapy – Lifeline doesn’t do rugby-related distress calls.
I need it even though I am perfectly balanced – 50% Afrikaans blood and 50% British.
1 May 2006, 13:47 pm
David,
totally agree, and there’s something else that all the best modern fetechers have, if you watch carefully their body positioning is excellent at the breakdown, i.e. which allows them to get good leverage for wrestling the ball while still playing legally, also the way they cover the ball to force a penalty from an oppo player not releasing. these all look like specific skills which have been trained. We need an Nz/Oz coach that is able to impart these skills.
1 May 2006, 13:49 pm
StP,
now there is something i agree 100% on with you, bosman will be a phenominal 12.
he has all the skills our current 12 have (and before someone slays me i do not believe a 12 should be someone in the mould JDV and olivier are) plus he has a great boot on him.
1 May 2006, 13:53 pm
Cab:
If you want to see a SA player with awesome sklls at the breakdown – watch Barry.
The speed at which he gets up from the tackle, braces his legs (to stop from going to his knees) and contests for the ball is awesome.
Yes he gives away penalties at the breakdown, but so does McCaw, Smith and everyone else who really contests.
1 May 2006, 13:53 pm
Morne is unspectacular but makes things “happen”. He gives players around him time, and probably doesn’t get sufficient credit as a result.
Ditto on Bosman at No 12. Whereto with JVD?
1 May 2006, 13:54 pm
Cab
Marvellous skill, that last one! Having the skill to kill the ball whilst making it look as if it’s the other player who’s not releasing it.
1 May 2006, 13:54 pm
PissAnt,
Agreed on gameplan but I would prefer Bulls to play like they did against Cats (2 half) and Sharks (1 half). Meaning the bulls dictate the flow of the game by keeping the ball. None team can score trys without the ball. The earlies season gameplan was due their personel at 10. Derrik is a great kicker but has been always poor with ball in hand. Bulls were not confident in their back line with derrik at 10. With Steyn different story.
St.Petersburgbok,
Hope Matfield can learn but it look to me he doesn’t have that mongrel like Johnson. Just one examle, don’t remember what game it was but remember Corry getting into trouble with ref, and Johnson just grabbed Corry in one hand and thrue him away from the ref.I had impression Corry would have sinbinned had Johnson not interfiered. Just Imagine Corry thrown away and he said nothing and obeyed. Now that tipe of authority I would like to see from our captain.
1 May 2006, 13:57 pm
Bossman at 12 could be interesting. At least he was playing 12 when cought JW eye.
1 May 2006, 14:00 pm
cic,
i agree on the sentiment of keeping the ball in hand rather, but i think the problem with the bulls in the beginning of the comp was not so much the #10, it was their loosies.
up and till recently the loosies have underperformed, now, they are doing extremely well and look like they have clicked for the first time this year (dlulane perhaps?).
to employ an effective running type of game your loosies are vitally important. this is why i believe the sharks were no-where in the first half, their loosies were completely overshadowed and ditto for the bulls exceptional first 40, their loosies lead by pedrie was nothing short of spectacular.
throw in brilliant performances from a tight 5 player like bakkies who carried the ball brilliantly and no team would have come close to the bulls last saturday.
that is of course unless the oppo team’s loosies got stuck in too.
this fridays game with the saders loosies is going to be vital and where the game is going to be won or lost.
1 May 2006, 14:00 pm
Jean DeVilliers has had his best games on the wing.
He has excellent skill and rugby brain as well but he is a player that needs a little time and space.
Don’t underestimate his pace as well….he’s pretty quick.
1 May 2006, 14:05 pm
storm-saam,
yip we are in minority, but both appear to think Barry has much to offer allround at 12. I like the combo of JdV and JF and think it could become one of the best ever, but Barry is also a very good 12.
1 May 2006, 14:06 pm
yet again i agree StP (seems to happen often lately).
this is exactly why i think there is a huge difference in a playmaker and game breaker.
JDV can turn a game on his head (gamebreaker) as can habana, fourie and joubert (like he did 2 years ago). they need space and they need to be put into space.
their running angles can rip opposition teams apart.
all they need are great playmakers to put them into space or give them space and time.
it is like a fullback knowing just when and how to join the line and at what angle.
1 May 2006, 14:10 pm
PissAnt,
Since the beginning of the S14 I have said that Cronje is not an eightman. You need a quicker, more scillfull player at 8. Cronje is genuine blindside flank. It was at blindside where he exeled in previouse seasons.
1 May 2006, 14:11 pm
Recently JDV hasn’t appeared to be the world’s greatest midfield defender.
Maybe he would be better as a wing/flyhalf? Similar to Pieter Rossouw’s role under Mallett?
1 May 2006, 14:12 pm
Agreed PissAnt,
Bulls had same quality at 12 in late EB. Unfortunately he was too white to play for boks.
1 May 2006, 14:15 pm
St P on post 40.
The Bulls have had 15 years or so & have not done what the Sharks have done in Super rugby!
You got your chance now, home games a plenty. If you don’t make it, the Bulls will be the Chokers.
One thing to remember is the Sharks have had a succesful season, when you compare the overseas tour. In fact, to be neck and neck with the Bulls after the favourable draw the Bulls had this season is a credit to the sharks or a discredit to the the Bulls.
I watch in anticipation if the Bulls will choke or make it to the semi’s. I wish you the best of luck too.
1 May 2006, 14:17 pm
The main difference for the Bulls that playing a specialist opensider like Dulane makes is that they can be more expansive. Without him it’s risky to have a breakdown out wide which has led to the obsession of keeping the ball tight.
Having a genuine openside flank opens up far more possibilities than just fetching the ball when it’s lost.
1 May 2006, 14:31 pm
Has anyone thought about the nightmare that Jake has in the leadup to the WC?
We have 6 Tri Nations this year alone. A home and away series against England plus others I’ve forgotten. I assume we’re not cancelling next years TriNations either.
He’s got to find an expanded squad that includes experience, new players who can take over in case of injuries, which will happen, plus have sufficient black player to fill in for other injured black players.
Whilst he’s doing this he has to ensure that he can put together various combinations that takes these factors into account.
He’s going to earn his money, believe me.
1 May 2006, 14:32 pm
How many S12/S14 titles have the Sharks got in their cupboard?
Since 1990(your greatest ever day apparently)……how many CC’s have you got compared with the Bulls in the same time frame, given you have that “apparently” superior game paln?
Sharks have had a great season because they were expected to be so poor.
Bulls season will be considered a bloody disaster if they don’t get to the final.
We set that “expectation bar” just a little higher in Tswane.
David
Agreed about Dlulane and the expansive game…..also don’t underestimate JP Nel and and Welsh’s ability to clear a ruck as well.
1 May 2006, 14:36 pm
StP
That’s one of the factors I meant. It’s all very well for Welsh or JP to clean out a backline ruck but it doesn’t help if the forwards aren’t fast enough to secure it.
The opensider also acts the link with the backs in so much as quick clean out means quick ball.
1 May 2006, 14:42 pm
Dlulane in has lived up to the bulls expectations when they decided to invest in him. Which I can not say about other imports Cotzee and Scholtz. I have seen BB in VC last couple of weeks and couldn’t answear the question why on earth did bulls let Molefe go to lions and bought those two dinozaurus with little brains and no hands? Apart from WO we don’t have quality inside cneter at the moment.
1 May 2006, 14:47 pm
The Bulls didn’t want to let Molefe go…he wanted to go.
1 May 2006, 14:50 pm
St. Petersburgbok,
Are you sure? Who would want to leave bulls country?
1 May 2006, 14:58 pm
St PBok.
I think what people are trying to say is that the Bulls gameplan is awesome at Currie Cup level an to an extent at Super 14 level (at home anyway), but the Sharks gameplan is better suited to an international gameplan where packs just do not dominate like they can at domestic level.
Man for man sharks team cannot compare with the Bulls but are somehow keeping up with them in this years Super 14 (and the sharks got a nightmare draw).
The Bulls have an awesome team and do have the players to go all the way but not with 10/12 man gameplans. I would love to see a guy like **** Muir coach the Bulls in the future.
1 May 2006, 14:58 pm
Pretty sure….initially I believe he fed them some bullshit story about moving back to where his family is (Kimberley)….only to join the Lions later?
1 May 2006, 15:01 pm
Cab (105):
Barry is a solid inside centre. However, I was ready to lynch him after the early season effort.
I guess the debate is for a playmaker like Jean DV, Hennie le Roux, Heinrich Fuls or for a more physical player like Barry, Japie Mulder, Pieter Muller.
It is interesting that the players that could blend the physical and the playmaking role alternated between center and flyhalf for the Boks. I’m thinking of Michael du Plessis (my earliest memory of a rugby genius), Henry Honibal and Hennie du Plessis.
Maybe Meyer Bosman is that type of player.
1 May 2006, 15:03 pm
LondonShark…..although the argument has merit.
The Bulls with only a handful of wins overseas in a decade of superrugby……surely this is not gameplan alone?
Some pretty woeful individual performances as well as down right rotten luck has seen them suffer overseas.
Seriously…..losing to the Reds?
Game plan or piss poor team performance?
1 May 2006, 15:07 pm
That is a shame. We urgently need someone as WO’s back up. At the moment the isn’t any player in VC to fullfill that role.
Sharks game plan is good for S14 where defence is not as important as Attack (teams need bonus points). I doubt that it will work in internationals, test are much tighter. No quality international team will alow their opponents to play basketball stile.
1 May 2006, 15:21 pm
cicinno
What about Steyn? He played there for the Bok u21 when Ruan was at 10. This allows you to bring Jaco in at 10 with Loets 15.
1 May 2006, 15:27 pm
Yes David, Steyn was tryed at 12 before, i recall Bulls played him in CC outside hougard, but it never workrd well. His is not strong enough and his defence is not that good at 12. Personaly i’d prefer jaco at 12 if something happens to WO.
1 May 2006, 15:27 pm
ciccino
Of course you could always use Bakkies.
1 May 2006, 15:29 pm
at least many of sa centers whould envy that dummie he threw to the sharks
1 May 2006, 15:31 pm
I wonder if we clone Bakkies and field 15 bakkies how competitive this team would be?
1 May 2006, 15:33 pm
St PBok, true story. The Bulls usually self detruct more than they actually get beaten, but I think that comes hand in hand with not really having a plan B.
The Bulls on there day at Loftus would probably beat the All Blacks. So maybe you are right, its not the gameplan, more of a mental overseas block.
1 May 2006, 15:35 pm
With Bakkies running at me at that speed I’d also buy the dummy!
1 May 2006, 15:38 pm
Keo, if the Sharks travel so well, why could they not win at Loftus? You (and 70% of this site) hoped and willed the Sharks to win, but all in all they were utterly outplayed, they only came back into the game when the Bulls took their foot of the gas. Yes, the Bulls should not have allowed it, but I think they clearly showed how easily they can beat the “best team in the country”. As for Botha’s claims….I tend to agree with St P on the other thread.
1 May 2006, 15:38 pm
it’s the end of the work day. So I am gone home to watch some student rugby superbowl. Cheers everyone.
1 May 2006, 15:44 pm
Slaapsak, the Bulls never took the foot off the gas, thats how they play. They CANNOT maintain for 80 minutes. The moment they rectify that and their overseas hoodoo,watch out!!
1 May 2006, 15:48 pm
I think Oliviers comment on another thread re Jaco and Welsh bringing confidence should be seen in a broader perspective.
Why were they lacking confidence? That can only come from Heyneke and Bayley. I think Heyneke has become so obsessed about his pack dominating that the backs got the message that they weren’t up to it and couldn’t be trusted.
Heyneke must have thought so which is the reason that his game plan had become one dimensional. It also puts a tremendous strain on the forwards.
1 May 2006, 15:49 pm
Londonshark, I must say I’m still quite dissapointed in the Bulls this year. Their draw was possibly the most favourable of all teams if you consider the strength of the opposision they played overseas. (Bulls played Force, Reds, Blues and Chiefs). They’ll never win the S14 until they get the overseas thing together.
1 May 2006, 17:07 pm
Slaapsak, yep. The Bulls should have picked up 6 extra points against the Brumbies and Canes,1 more for a bonus point against the Force and boom, they would be semi final certainties (well, basically).
1 May 2006, 17:22 pm
Agree with David on HM’s lack of faith in the Bulls backline. Not really a good attitude to instill in your players, is it? I normally really rate Meyer as a coach, but this, along with his blind love of Hougaard, didn’t impress. Still, let’s hope all has been rectified now, and that the Bulls play to their full potential in the remaining games.
1 May 2006, 17:41 pm
Yes, Indestructibull, but as David also mentions in post 111, the addition of a specialist openside flanker in Tim Dlulane has given the coach more of an opportunity to play an expansive game.
BTW, I have found this particular thread to be tremendously enlightening re. the finer points of the game. Thanks to PissAnt, David, etc. Let’s hope we can continue in this vein.
1 May 2006, 18:07 pm
Fair point Ikeys, there are certain players that need to be included in order for a more expansive game to be played, but what I wonder is why HM didn’t include those players earlier. Look at the difference between the Bulls-Blues game (bit of a shocker) and the Bulls-Chiefs game (much more promising). IMO players like Dlulane, and also Steyn could have made a big difference if brought in earlier in the tournament.
1 May 2006, 18:34 pm
Thanks for the compliment Ikey, if you’re still around.
In Stuart Barnes (who I know a lot of Muppits reckon is a total idiot) last column on Sky Sports, a Saffa in the UK asked why SA S14 Teams did so badly whilst the Boks did so well.
His response was “the coaches” plus the fact that the Green and Gold jersey transformed a player.
The knowledgable Kiwis also point to our coaching as being the weak point in our system.
Why don’t we take notice?
1 May 2006, 21:41 pm
Keo,
firstly 70% of your muppet population went for the sharks prior to the Bulls game because like you they went with emotion. They went with what they wanted to happen. Your Bones have been off the mark on several occasions because of this.
As I have mentioned before Mark you write off the bulls and the Stormers at your peril.
Yes they haven’t played well this year but they were due to get it right so time.
The Sharks have improved one heck of a lot and mostly due to the battle hardening they have received on the road…Good for them and that will I am sure filter through to the next super series. But the Bulls had to fire and the Stormers had to play for 80 minutes like they know they can play.
The Crusaders are not good SA tourists and the writing was on the wall. I prophecied it and if you don’t believe me check last Sat’s morning posting..I also prophecy that the Waratahs will take the title…
The fact that the Bulls didn’t steamroller the sharks for 80 mins is a matter of concern but we all know including the Bulls themselves what they are capable off if they dedicate themslves to 80 mins of intensity.
I do believe that the 2nd half slip is a captaincy issue and I am sure the pta boys will solve that over the next few months.
Likewise the Stormers know now what is required in the intensity stakes and thus applied they can beat the best in this competition.
Keo….. Think with your kop rather than your heart when you throw the bones again…..
1 May 2006, 22:09 pm
1 May 2006, 22:21 pm
No roar at loftus can make me forget the losses overseas – it was a humiliation – our other teams lost as well, but who have we here , isnt it the BULLS, the “pride of SA rugby?” – they made me a laughin stock and if you don’t mind, I didnt waste my time to watch the last Bull games overseas – the loss to the Reds or the farce against the Force
I do not respect a team that can only crow in its own backyard
I’d rather support the Sharks & Stormers overseas, have they got this “reputation” to defend?
I’ll call you a Bull on Loftus cos all the blue does apparently does somethin to your brain … but on current AWAY form you are not deserving of that name
1 May 2006, 22:37 pm
From my point of view…being a Stormers supporter, I dont see why I should support other SA teams, because sometime we gonna play them aswell…
1 May 2006, 22:51 pm
daardie “mojo” in Loftus se kraanwater werk darem goed, ne !
1 May 2006, 22:56 pm
newlands, if they play your team, fair enough, but against overseas opposition, you just have to shout for the SA guys.
1 May 2006, 23:00 pm
Yep, I agree now Londonshark, but I dont think those Bulls supporters will ever support Stormers, they are just too “hardegat” for that!
1 May 2006, 23:01 pm
come on newlands, we can do it! haha!
1 May 2006, 23:06 pm
Newlands, true story.
1 May 2006, 23:12 pm
David #88 well said, this has not been acknowledged in SA yet, but perhaps the tide is finally turning (10 years too late, but late is better than never.)
1 May 2006, 23:13 pm
I am taking my hat off to all the Bulls supporter who DO support the stormers in the S14…if there are any…I did support Bulls against Force, haha, just to keep them from winning!!
1 May 2006, 23:14 pm
And to all the guys who are giving Ruan Pienaar a hard time. The guy has still had a better season than FDP by a long way (and I’m a huge FDP fan). RP was behind a losing pack and to be honest he was a bit rattled, but no one can deny he is potentially SA’s best scrummie.
1 May 2006, 23:16 pm
I’m worried about Ricky’s form though. I’m sure he will come right in the Bok set up but he needs work on his pass, it’s looking a bit ‘Bolla like’ lately. FDP still has the best pass in the country.
1 May 2006, 23:16 pm
David, post 139, you’re welcome
1 May 2006, 23:18 pm
South Africa has alot of good Scrumhalfes, Ruan Pienaar definatly next for green & Gold!
1 May 2006, 23:55 pm
Newlands, I for one am happy to support the Stormers when they’re playing any Aussie or NZ team, I think they did a great job against the Crusaders, as long as the Crusaders now don’t decide to punish my Bulls for their loss
2 May 2006, 00:22 am
Yes Ikey ,you said it,its amazing that this thread has not deteriorated ,usually by post 20 it starts to go pear shaped ,recovers and then by 50 or 60 its not worth reading. This is one of th ebest thread in a while …thanks all of you. It morning here ,hence me being off the thread for houyrs but just enjoyinmg reading now.
The Stomers thread from the game was so negative even when we’d won ,as some people seemed put out that the Storms stood up and atleast on the day made people eat their words.
the week before was a shockingly bad 55 mins then a great 4 mins then a good defencive effort. Altho it wasnt champagne rugby ,the Storms rattled the Crusaders and the 2 very very good wings were virtually not in the game ,till last move. Also Carter and Mc D were on for 35 mins and never threatened us….well done Storms.
I still find it weird that commentators congrats JDV when he was pretty quiet awhile Barry was immense. Pietersen stood out more than JdV who cannot kick for touch ! He does have BMT and Jake will get more out of him ,with the way DWB is playing JDV would cover our no 14 issue.
I would still like some decent commentators one day.
Example….Kempson begins a comment on how talented Pietersen is and that he’s asking Q’s of Crusaders ,gets interrupted by Cowley who says ,yes he’s not very big ,but he does have some speed.
Then aplay breaks it,Kempson is shut up and on they go about the ball rolling into touch or something unhelpful.
What it does is plays to the SA thinking of size,and speed is the attribute that gets you a position . Nothing about skill ,rugby brain,thinking on feet,if people support him better it can lead to tries. Just the feed to the masses about ‘no substitute for speed’ and size is an issue.
When Kempson brought it up ,my ears perked up,unfortunately Cowley is the head commentator in their two-some and goes about withhis weekly same old ****.How enlightening is this? Ggrrgghh.
Anyway ,in the Bulls defence ,it may have been near impossible for them to play 80 mins like the 1st 40 and BB is never expected to play more than 60 mins anyway.I doubt he can like that.
All the bulls did was play like they had nothing to loose and everything to play for and like they wanted 4 tries at all coists. if they played wit his attitude overseas they would have won all the close ones too.
What has happened to percy. Very quiet
I’d have Jaco at 15 ,AP at 10 with Percy as sub for Boks.AP has shown enough in his short comeback in a loosing side for me BUT must not miss the kicks.
All or kickers have been sub stamdard ,and especially Tony Brown. This really worries me
Also Brown and the fancied Pienaar,the Shark Catylists were not even a factor on the w/e. Pienaar is good and has had one greta try and maybe 2 great games,I would pick him as no 3,as understudy to FDP and either Ricky or Bolla ,right now Bolla.
Cronje must go out the door and make a straight swap with Wannenburg for bok trio of Burger,Smith and Wannenburg with Watson,Joe,Venter to releive the workload of so many games.Perhaps Dlulane,Venter would be a great cover on bench for lock with one of the others coming on as loosy cover.
Guys like Watson,Pienaar,Dlulane,JP Pietersen,WO,Naas Oliver etc should be fringe boks who get game time vs Scotland etc and are backup and in the squad for injuries and to rest the bigger names. This will prove vital cover come a year from now.
Was interested to see percy at 10 ,as ive never liked his defencive frailties there but he has an awesome pass as has Bosman.
The teams are starting to play for 80 mins even if it means a comeback,this is far better than earlier games and very timely. they are proving that they can take it from a team after the siren goes. Something we have been the loosers of for a while.
There are good signs ,we are not there yet,but we have the results inthe past 2 weeks to gie the boys and coaches belief and mongrel again.Also we’ve kept ball more in hand and its paid off . Finally Hope we’ve learned.
Finally MJ is a gonerr in my book. I’d rather we invest now in Welsh,Cooke, even JP Nel….its not worth it for a one game a year wonder boy anymore….and im a Stormer.Barry atleast has 2 games in 3 and is more allround.
2 May 2006, 04:33 am
Stuff and nonsense!
Of all the three #9 options Jake White has in place, Bolla, Enrico, Fourie … they are all just the same old same old usual Springbok complete mediocre scrummie rubbish compared to Ruan Pienaar.
Now THIS guy is every bit as livewire and threatening as what Joost vdW was in his early heyday before he became too “kop-toe” and full of himself as what dumb dutchies are invariably wont to do!
And, don’t forget how spectacularly — over so many years it by now almost spans generations — the Bulls proudest biggest broadest breker Afrikaners — just all fall completely to pieces once they put their foot on that aeroplane headed Down Under!
Factor that in!
2 May 2006, 05:04 am
Tackles
Where have you been ? Care to comment on the Crusaders choking at Newlands. Not a log point to the pathetic Stormers. And how about last weekend huh? Carter looked at ineffective as our big boys on a bad day in NZ. How about the Highlanders in wet Dunedin vs the Tah’s. Any comments there?
A couple of narrow losses at the house of Pain to the AB’s isnt falling completely to pieces.Sometimes we do ,but not always.
I do think someone like Bakkies is half baked overseas sometimes….and we do have an idea of bigger the breker is better.But thats old news now,anyway and harping on about what happened 2 weeks ago ,2 months ago and 2 years ago is not what we are talking about now. Did you watch any games this weekend. Did you see a come from behind attitude that we havent done i a while? Did you see some SA teams playiong 80 mins ,what i did see that was negative was our inabilty to kick our poiints and Tony Brown is not helping that side of the cause.
Jeez last week the Stormers were pathetic for 55 mins yet still won Down under.
Pienaar also a dutchy mate. He is very good,but you think the 3 no 9′ you mentioned are all exactly the same? On their poor day all are dissapointing,on their normal day they are all good and on their great day they will outplay any of the down under no 9′s.
Pienaar should be picked as an understudy,used sparingly etc etc. Did you see him vs the Bulls this w/e? I didn’t. But then again,the Bulls dominated so much yet perhaps he could have shown a glimmer of BMT. i never saw it. He must be brought in soon ,but slowly. He can be great.
Now go away again till you have something useful to say.
2 May 2006, 06:15 am
Ruan’s a very very very smart Dutchy, mate!
Not like the stupid dumbells in the Bulls line-up. Boneheaded, dumb as a sackful of hammers Dutchy “brekers”!
And the Stormers didn’t win “down under” agaist the Crusaders — they won that game at their home base of Newlands.
Highlanders historically have a hoodoo side at the House of Pain and that side is invariably the team from New South Wales. (No SA side is a big worry, somehow!)
2 May 2006, 06:38 am
You two enjoying each others company
2 May 2006, 06:59 am
159 Sharks.
2 May 2006, 07:02 am
i rate the scrummies in this country very high actually, much better then Australias and the Kiwis are not too hot either
1. Pienaar
2. Du Prueez
3. Januarie
4. De ****
5. Conradie
2 May 2006, 07:02 am
4. De Kock (not ****)
2 May 2006, 07:17 am
5 2 3 4 1
2 May 2006, 07:21 am
John Smit a fine performance? What game were you watching? His first time tackling sucks and he drops like a sack of potatoes when he gets touched, no go forward .. he is 4 rate and a weak link in any team he plays for. Lets not talk about not finding his jumpers. Bring on bothes and brits.
2 May 2006, 08:12 am
Bulls outplayed Sharks …what a great come back by the sharks in last 30min after almost whole bulls team reserves came on.
brown didnt know what to do was so big mouth im sure he regrets his words. bakkies was allova the park scored 2 tries how can they compare him with that no show ackerman. i liked piennaar play he would do so much better with bulls. pedrie should get his springbok jersey.
2 May 2006, 08:12 am
Great game Bulls!
Now let’s see you do it overseas………
2 May 2006, 09:07 am
Your Bones are worth as much as the rolling of traditional healer bones. That is NOTHING. The same amount of thought goes into your rolling of the bones as the amount of thought into traditional medicine and bones predicting the future.
2 May 2006, 09:19 am
Paws
Your knowledge of rugby is right up their with Mugabe’s governance prowess.
2 May 2006, 09:26 am
I have a question?
I was under the impression that support players were not aloud to be in contact with the runner until contact is made. The Bulls players did it the whole game and were never blown.
Any answers?
2 May 2006, 09:28 am
kevin w
Sounds more like a gripe than a question.
Get over it your team lost.
2 May 2006, 09:31 am
no jondood,
It’s a question, because now i will be supporting the Bulls this weekend and might see an aus ref with a clue blow them against the crusaders and then i’ll have to hear you squeal like a ***** on monday again.
2 May 2006, 09:32 am
Kevin
Where on earth did you get that impression?
2 May 2006, 09:33 am
I love it
All of a sudden JDV is not good enough anymore.
A couple of months ago he was SA’s saviour.
You okes are pathetic
2 May 2006, 09:37 am
Kevi
Are you possibly confusing the “truck and trailer” infringement which counts as obstruction. If so, it only applies if the support player is in front of the ball carrier and then would be technically ofside.
2 May 2006, 09:37 am
David,
I’m sure i’ve seen it blown before and i chatted to a guy who refs schoolboy rugby.
Surely it’s the same as “truck and trailer” and it’s pretty dangerous considering you are tackling and putting your head in line of an attached player.
I’m just asking, because it was pretty effective.
2 May 2006, 09:39 am
Who said Jean de Viliers isnt good enough anymore???
2 May 2006, 09:40 am
Rastafox … call them as I see them .. go watch the game again and then come back to me …
and by the way .. it is an opinion shared by many ..
2 May 2006, 09:41 am
Moegrat
read through this blog and check it out
2 May 2006, 09:44 am
Kevin W is right. A player may not bind/support another player until contact is made with the opposition (in all situations).
2 May 2006, 09:45 am
Jean Div, spot on mate. JDV will be our 12 for years to come and rightfully so. Thank goodness Jake is not as fickle as some of the fans on this site.
2 May 2006, 09:57 am
It is always fair to criticise where due,but one bad game after weeks of powerful performances and now the guy’s useless all round.It is only two weeks ago and all were singing Smit praises and one weekend later it’s a whole new ballgame!
2 May 2006, 09:58 am
Tckler
Wake up…..my opening comment refers to the Storm /Crusader game at Newlandsso why would I get it wrong a few lines down?
Last week the Stormers were terrible for 55 mins down under…..to spell it out ,last week I mean ‘your’ week before. Its obvious the Stormers werent poor for 55 mins this (past ) weekend.Im talking about down under being OZ where the Stormers beat the Reds.
Stop looking for issues,I take it the other 99 comments I made you agree with as you never take up anything positive or in agreement.So ill just read betw the lines.
Glad you like Ruan,why ever are you in favour of someone?…its gonna snow. He will be there ,time is on his and our side…its not no 9′s that our problems anyway.Perhaps it is in NZ
2 May 2006, 09:59 am
Rasta
There has always been a large part of us that never sings Smit’s praises. I for one do not rate him as a Captain or a hooker.
2 May 2006, 10:03 am
Xtreni does not like a Sharks player, SHOCK!!
2 May 2006, 10:04 am
Xkreni-WP
I rate him as a captain but not as a hooker.
Remember there was a lot of hoo ha about Francois Pienaar in ’95 not being the best player but he sure was a leader
2 May 2006, 10:06 am
Moegat, yep. John Smit is a great leader and sure, like Seun Fitz is prob not the best hooker in the country (but is damm close), but his effect on his players is immense.
2 May 2006, 10:16 am
Ja, good weekend all round. Congrads to the Stormers and Bulls. Tell me guys, after the great draw my team had this weekend does anybody think we can still turn this season around and win the thing??? Thing being the Super14…
2 May 2006, 10:18 am
There is several I do like Londonshark
Hey Moegrat
Have you paid Jondood the R100 yet?
2 May 2006, 10:19 am
Grrr…
You got as much chance of winning the S14 as Dale Sandton has of playing fullback for the Boks
2 May 2006, 10:21 am
Jean div
You obviously take it personally
It is Ok to watch a guy play and finally admit and see his shortcomings. I have occasionally been one to spring at the fuss made about JDV as he can be great once or twice a match yet he lets us down in other areas (at times). Its just that we tend to be all or nothing about a guy. As much as I slam I always say he will be in my match 22 if not 15 every week. He does need to work on some things and also work with a specialist fine(r) tuning his alround game and being effective in all areas if he is to be our 1st choice. Most agree he is our first choice either wing,12 or 13 but find probs in some of what he does and doesnt do. I also find it worrying that he can just be on the park and get mentioned in the same breath as other worthy Man Of the Matches when he has been pretty inconspicuous. The commentators often dont think,they also beleive the sun shines out of his arse. His pathetic first 55 mins display vs the Reds 2 weekends ago has all been forgotten cos of 1) us winnning and 2) his great break and hand in G.Brits try.
Oz commentators mentioned the words – his almost disgraceful display so far – at half time. We are too scared and blind to say that sort of thing,esp our useless commentators.
I would still rather have a Scott Stanisforth, a Mortlock , a stepping Tipoke (not mentioning his fouling) in my team and aside from Mortlock,those guys areent hailed as their world classmatch winners.
Whatever happens dont put JDV at no 10 until he’s been groomed as he cannot find touch and his attempts have led to crucial tries by the opposition a number of times. As supposedly mercurial as he is,he has not (yet) got the overall abilty of a flyhalf ,you need a very able boot ,preferably both ,ASWELL as an eye for a gap.He does have the latter twice a game.
Right now me personally prefers him as a hard working ,looking for action and intercepting wing. He is deadly and has a high work rate.His defence has to get rock solid before he can scream ‘im the man for the job in the midfield.
Some criticism seemed to help Fleck and WO more recently so perhaps if everybody stops blowing the smoke up his arse and tells him where he is good and where he is **** and needs to pull finger ,he may get a lekker skrik and op en wakker.I would love this as we could do with a defensivley sound JDV at no 12….the we’ll be talkking. It can happen this season…he needs someone to ‘tell him like it is,ek se !’- Jake White = someone ,and the general talk
2 May 2006, 10:21 am
Fck i hope one of you didnt remember that
Yep will pay him right after the Stormers/Bulls game. I wont owe him a cent after that
2 May 2006, 10:23 am
Methinks it will be R 200 then
2 May 2006, 10:23 am
j vd westhuizen has more rugby in his little toe than most sa backs
he must be springbok flyhalve
i’ll supply jw with fruit and veg forever
2 May 2006, 10:26 am
Nah not a chance, the Bulls were lucky this weekend. I heard from an “inside source” that a few of the Sharks players had food poisening after eating a choclate basket that was delivered to their hotel rooms by a Mr. J Roets
2 May 2006, 10:26 am
Ddrek, no one is really banging on the door to take JDV place in the starting 15.
DVB is a good super rugby player but his crash bash gameplan does not work on the international scene (2004 was the exception).
He should play for the Bulls.
2 May 2006, 10:27 am
Moegrat, I knew it.
2 May 2006, 10:28 am
We dont need him London
2 May 2006, 10:30 am
Xtreni, true. Your number 12 (WO) is the only guy who could seriously challenge for the Bok number 12 jersey with JDV. Great player!
2 May 2006, 10:30 am
Now who is dumb. Definately not us dutchmen
2 May 2006, 10:32 am
He still needs a season or two London. Prove himself consistently
2 May 2006, 10:32 am
The sharks should have spiked the Bulls Brandy and coke.
2 May 2006, 10:33 am
Team for after WC07
15 JP Pietersen
14 Ndungane
13 J Fourie
12 J d Villiers
11 B Habana
10 M Steyn
09 R Pienaar
08 J Smith
07 S Burger
06 L Watson
05 R Skeate
04 V Matfield
03 BJ Botha
02 John Smit
01 JD Moller
Bring it on
2 May 2006, 10:34 am
I would still take him to the world cup as backup to JDV.
2 May 2006, 10:35 am
If they spiked the bulls drink with Brandy & Coke they wouldve moered the pom pom girls. You know those Northern Transvalers cant handle brandy
2 May 2006, 10:36 am
Megrat, nice team. I would still take Bakkies though and Steencamp/Os.
I’m not convinced with Ndungani yet either.
2 May 2006, 10:37 am
At least they wouldnt have moered the Sharks!!
2 May 2006, 10:38 am
this skeate will have to show what he’s worth against the bullas
he is below average so far
fortunately he shaved off that *** moustache
only a tomato for him
2 May 2006, 10:38 am
Ye I had to go for Skeate as two bulls locks is too much
and Ndungani is a quota player although he is good but maybe not the best
2 May 2006, 10:39 am
And as for Os I dont think he will make it after next years Cup
2 May 2006, 10:40 am
Ross Skeate instead of bakkie. You must have had some of that dinky chocolates Moegrat.
J VD Westhuizen
Ndugane
Fourie
Habanna
De Villiers
Pretorius
Du Preez
Pedrie
Watson
Smit
Botha (k)
Matfield
Steenkamp
Botha
Moller
2 May 2006, 10:42 am
Xktreni, Botha as captain, ARE YOU MAD??????
Nice team. I would still go with Burger and John Smit though.
2 May 2006, 10:44 am
Bench
J.P Pietersen
Ruan Pienaar
W.O
Joe Van Niekerk
A.J Venter
B.J
Chilliboy
2 May 2006, 10:45 am
I guess I will use this thread to congratulate the Bulls on a great game on Saturday. Well done, that pack really packs a wallop. That said, I’m not feeling down cos my team played really good rugby and the best part was that iot was the youngsters doing some amazing work (so much for the doomsayers who allege that the Sharks will suffer once the old-timers retire, our success is base more on our youth). The performace of the Bulls pack is great news for the Tri-Nations while Morne Steyn also showed why (I believe) he is a much better player than De Waal,Grant etc. But lets not loose all touch with reality and suggest Bok teams like in (211).
2 May 2006, 10:47 am
Porra,
i think your boys need some fruit and veg after losing out by 1 point and meyer missing the winning conversion…
2 May 2006, 10:47 am
Look what happened when the Aussies made Ricky Ponting Captain. Before that he was a real hellraiser. Added sense of responsibility will settle him. Just get someone more eloquent to do the media thing.
2 May 2006, 10:48 am
Xkreni WP
In your team AJ Venter and J vd West will be to old by then (or is this your current team not “after WC07″ team?)
Also to have Bakkies as captain is madness, he is to prone for a yellow card
2 May 2006, 10:49 am
Thank you Ben M. We graciously accept. I think it is a damn fine team.
2 May 2006, 10:50 am
moegrat
I have not forgotten. Just wondering if you would own up.
We can carry it over to the Stormers game. I dont mind.
But to be honest right now I am more curious about the Stormers vs Sharks game this weekend.
2 May 2006, 10:50 am
And after the appointing Pontinga as Captain the lost the ashes for the first time in 20 years
2 May 2006, 10:51 am
AAh Moegrat
Ek lees soos my gat. It is for WC 07. When last did Bakkies receive a yellow? Is Burger not more of a liability in that department?
2 May 2006, 10:52 am
They are still the best side in the world Moegrat. With Ponting as the number 1 test batsman. It was a wobble but they will regain it.
2 May 2006, 10:53 am
Ye its going to be a good one, Sharks on a low and Stormers on a high. If the Sharks played like they did in the second half against the Bulls then the Stormers is in for a long evening.
Anywas, gotta go. And im confident i can scratch the 100 bucks in a few weeks time, only time will tell
Cheers
2 May 2006, 10:58 am
Moergat,
BJ Botha end Burger have a much bigger yellow card liability factor than Botha. Botha is the dominant enforcer lock in world rugby at the moment. no SA team without him. end of story.
2 May 2006, 11:05 am
i watched the Cats game and to entertain myself I imagined that Andy Turner had sold movie rights to Hollywood and Steven Spielberg was making an epic called “Ludeke’s List” it is a tragic tale of young lives ruined and the hopes of a whole community dashed and culminates in a popular uprising and civic unrest. Marvin the Martian is playing Earl Rose and Stiffler is playing Grant Esterhuyzen. Britney Spears will star as Wickus v Heerden.
2 May 2006, 11:09 am
i think saders just wanted extra pocket money…. now the stormers thing they the best. Sharks should bring the chockers back to earth.
2 May 2006, 11:12 am
BIG HAHAHAHA at Earl “Bite the hand that feeds me” Rose. Lovely on attack; shameful on defence. Count your money, Earl, while the Stormers count their lucky stars.
2 May 2006, 11:14 am
londonshark …yes there’s nobody really pushing him but two days in 3 I prefer Barry at 12 and JDV at 14 or 13 ,and WO is in need of some more play. I say pick em all and work with em all and work hardest with JDV as he has it for sure. If he doesnt step up ,use Barry and get WO on the filed too. But i suppose these are our 3 choices. Watch Jake pick big *** and perhaps Bosman as backup (which is ok i suppose)
2 May 2006, 11:26 am
hi all,
**** sitting at loftus leading by 24 pts i thought we had it in the bag… Not happy with the way we let the sharks back into the game!! Bulls have been lacking that aspect the last few months… They even let the cheetah’s back in the CC final!!
A win is a win!! Never seen more scared sharks players on a field in my life… Bakkies even handed T Brown a little pakslae…
Bring on the Crusaders before we clean the stormers!!
2 May 2006, 11:35 am
actually just looking at the log, the bulls loss to the reds was pisspoor.
2 May 2006, 11:38 am
cab
Rub it in.
It was disgraceful.
I still believe that is the final nail in our coffin.
But one can hope.
2 May 2006, 11:45 am
actually jondood i thought the bulls would qualify for a semi after their sharks win, but looking at the log, there’s a good chance they might not, even if they beat the stormers and crusaders.
thats why i look back at the loss to the reds, ridiculous.
2 May 2006, 11:57 am
cab – you can add the loss to the Brumbies as well……
2 May 2006, 11:58 am
Ig
That last try of Mortlock came from a knock on.
I saw it with my own eyes.
2 May 2006, 12:00 pm
Ya jondood – not so sure – reckon the Bulls got lazy as they have shown against – the Brumbies, Sharks, Force and the Reds – someone needs to let them know 80 minutes constitues a game not 20, 40, 60….
2 May 2006, 12:01 pm
And don’t forget THAT loss to the Canes.
2 May 2006, 12:03 pm
There is some real genius thinking in the Bullpen if we hadn’t lost to the Reds,if the TMO didn’t shaft us,if,if,if,if.It’s quite simple really never mind the opposition if you ain’t good to win enough you will be an also-ran. The Bulls are a good side,unfortunately not a great one.The S14 has highlighted weaknesses in their game and a lack of evolution has allowed the opposition to better counter the Bulls strenghts.If the Bulls really want to be a force in this competition they are going to have to improve tactically as this year they have not been consistently good enough to be regarded as real contenders.
2 May 2006, 12:04 pm
rastafox
Surely you can not aim your post just towards the Bulls?
2 May 2006, 12:06 pm
Cab
Look on the bright side. We can now concentrate on the CC where, at least, 2 SA sides will make the final.
2 May 2006, 12:09 pm
hi guys, how about this scenario!
If bulls win their last 2 games with bp they end up on 43. If saders loose their last 2 games (bulls, Brumbies) without any bp they stay on 42.
if thas and canes win one match the saders are out of the semis.
How about that!!!!!!!
2 May 2006, 12:12 pm
Not only at the Bulls,they are however our top side and really should have delivered more this year.The Sharks have surprised and improved dramatically,the Cheetahs are in their debut season,the Cats are currently not deserving of any comment and the Stormers are worth a coloumn on their own.The Bulls had the most to lose this season and cannot be satisfied with this season as it stands.I would love nothing more than see the Bulls sneak into the play-offs and come home with the title,but I am sure there are few who would dispute the slimness of that chance.
2 May 2006, 12:15 pm
Unless its a home semi, the Bulls have fakall chance. What a shame they only just managed to squeak out the Sharks who travel much better.
2 May 2006, 14:27 pm
Sharks got rattled, they did… Bulls had the most impressive start i have seen in a long time, but thats that. Another 10 mins of that game, and sharks would have had it in the bag. Bulls well done, but Sharks remain the better team as a whole and the one that could possibly take it to the end 80 mins to 80 mins to 80 mins.
Don’t thinks Bulls will fire like that again, and even if they do Crusaders won’t be rattled out of their impressive defence like we were in the first 25 min.
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