World pack dominates Boks
3 Jun 2006
The much-anticipated forward clash between the World XV tight five and the Bok XV was completely one-sided.
It was rudely illustrated by Cobus Visagie’s hammering of Deon Carstens for the first 60 minutes, until Carstens was substituted for Lawrence Sephaka in the second half. Visagie then also gave Sephaka a horrible working over.
“Our scrum definitely won the day. Their loosehead prop [Carstens] hardly bound the entire game and just put his arm on his knee and rolled in under and kept falling in and managed to get six points for the Springboks, which is ridiculous,” said Dwyer. “They were targetting Cobus for the sake of targetting Cobus. I think our scrum did remarkably well.”
Visagie, a veteran of 29 Tests for South Africa, was dismissed by coach Jake White as a possible World Cup 2007 candidate. If he is not, then Carstens most certainly is not.
Dwyer bemoaned the performance of South African referee Tappe Henning.
“And that last penalty wasn’t even a penalty. I think Tappe looked away and missed why the ball had come out. He definitely made a mistake and it cost us,” added the former Wallaby World Cup-winning mentor.
Dwyer had a warning for the Tri-Nations though: “It would be silly to think the Boks won’t improve.”
By Andrew Hollely, at Ellis Park
43 Comments
3 Jun 2006, 18:14 pm
dragons
3 Jun 2006, 18:15 pm
Bob
Your last coment – exactly.
This is the boks first game together.
3 Jun 2006, 18:15 pm
Yes Dywer one thing you are right about is TAPPA, Thank **** he wont be reffing anymore.
But i also think we woudl have had two trys if it wasent for this poepal. (i might be wrong as i was at the game crying at the thought of throwing the money i spent to go watch)
3 Jun 2006, 18:16 pm
our boks were destroyed up front,egg on whites face for mouthing Cobus off
3 Jun 2006, 18:27 pm
At times I think Jake White says the wrong thing about players e.g. Brits, Watson and now Visagie.
Oneday, he is going to be wiping a lot of egg off his face. In reality though, he will always be the next Bok coach fired.
3 Jun 2006, 18:29 pm
wpforever I DONT THINK its egg on his face, because i think he was revving Cobus up, i would not be suprised if he gets chosen i mean Carstens was way out of his depth, so was Sephaka.
Surly he has to look at Cobus?
3 Jun 2006, 18:33 pm
i sure hope so too WLS,Cobus is as wise character,what is needed to win world cups
3 Jun 2006, 18:50 pm
Or he might be bloody-minded and make unconvincing excuses for Carstens. Sometimes people just won’t admit they’re wrong – pride preceding the fall and all that stuff. If indeed he does pick Visagie, then we’ll know whether JW is wilier than we all thought but the signs are not encouraging. We may be in for a long Tri-Nations.
3 Jun 2006, 18:52 pm
You guys forget that when Jake doesnt like a player he can be quite stubborn about it. Thats the problem with saying that you dont rate a player cause then that player can prove you wrong and for you as the coach to then bring him into the team is admitting that you made a mistake. I get the feeling that Jake doesnt like to admit when he’s made a mistake.
3 Jun 2006, 18:53 pm
Damn Rex I was just typing the exact same thing as you. WOuldnt have bothered otherwise
3 Jun 2006, 18:55 pm
Rex
Hope youre right about Jake being wilier than we give him credit for.
3 Jun 2006, 19:15 pm
Deon Carstens knows how his food travels after tonight. He got his head scrummed trough his backside. But we don’t need Cobus…. NO, we have lots of props! Lang traane…
3 Jun 2006, 19:53 pm
Much anticipated? Not by me. It was as poor asa ever by the Boks
3 Jun 2006, 19:54 pm
Another poor refereeing performance from another piss poor South African referee. It gets boring does it not?
3 Jun 2006, 20:12 pm
if white does n’t want him….mallett should the pay the money for cobus…….the money they invest visagie and boome will for sure pay off, when the stormers have a competitive pack that will get them to the next round, the next round means more revenue for the stormers …in turn means pay the tough as nails players i.e. boome and visagie what they asking…..stormers tight 5 of w/ moller, andrews, brits, visagie, boome, skeate , bekker, britz and shimange…means a foundation for a successful super 14 campaign
3 Jun 2006, 21:39 pm
st michel go join the Scousers football site,go play bingo at the Gala hall,join the British league,if you don`t enjoy SA rugby log off.Now go and eat your fish n chips carry out,talk shite POMMY
3 Jun 2006, 21:54 pm
A week or so ago we read about this new fantastic high tech scrum machine the Boks will now use – supplied by Sasol. This new machine apparantly has many settings that simulates “real world” conditions. Obviously the manual got lost – or it was written in chinese – because the scrumming was worse today than it’s been in a long time. And what about the great Balie Swart making such a huge impact? The SARU media machine is feeding us kak – again!
I wonder if this new scrum machine can simulate what happened to Carstens today? He had his head pressed through his ******. SARU should consider employing a rack-master to prepare the Boks for the All Blacks. On today’s performance they will need all the pain conditioning they can get.
3 Jun 2006, 22:03 pm
Re Cobus, The problem is not with JW. Lies with Gert Smal – our genious fwds coach. Remember the awesome pack he formed with the stormers?
Cobus has no chance with GS there. They do not see eye to eye as CV is technically much more in tune with the modern game.
Pity as CJ / Eddi is NOWHERE NEAR AS STRONG.
3 Jun 2006, 22:07 pm
Katsesnor enjoyed post 17. i`m having a good chuckle now
3 Jun 2006, 22:43 pm
Balie should go. Get Patricia Lewis to advise on front row play.
3 Jun 2006, 22:58 pm
so when i stated on thursday about cobus being the best prop in the guinness premiership and the muppets disagred, where are you now ??????
action speak louder than words.
3 Jun 2006, 23:08 pm
This happens quite often paddysid, lots of these guys trash players here one week and the next they are the bees knees
3 Jun 2006, 23:42 pm
how times did shimange head pop-up….did smit say shimange was a strongest scrummer he faced in the super 14…….
3 Jun 2006, 23:45 pm
can jake white explain to the sa public why visagie is nt good enough? does n’t cobus visagie has one of the best technique’s? does n’t he understand the european conditions? does nt he have experience? white please explain why visagie cant make an impact, but someone like andre snyman on the wing can make a difference?
4 Jun 2006, 00:17 am
Did Visage really look that good ? Or are you just listening to Garth Wright and then everyone follows suit?
He gave away many points,was on a warning ,scrummed in – as he has always done for the boks. Anyway what else does he offer? We had a weak 2nd row anyway.If our useless commentatots said it was Visage who needed to watch himself ,wouldn’t most of you be saying something like ,”ja he’s past his sell buy date” ?
Didnt see much from Snyman but then didnt see much from 13,11 and 15 either Except Monty and Gaffie’s boot.
Visage is overrated by all you sheep.Always was.
Carstens has a future ahead of him. Get Smit,Os,Bakkies and Vic back and Deon will be fine. Just think about the whole tight 5 vs the World 15′s.
I’d say forget about Visage ,unless we have a lot of injury’s (jake’sdoor should always be open ,as I head him say on Boots n all before the media blew it up) and think about if we really want WO on as a backup wing. Where is our wing depth???
4 Jun 2006, 01:26 am
Don’t blame Carstens,there are 2 guys next to him.WP/Stormers got destroyed up front the last & this season,shall I say more.
4 Jun 2006, 03:40 am
and stringbean behind.
im glad for this outing ,a worthwhile endevour pre Scots and French. If it were all 7′s baabaas style we would have learned less.
4 Jun 2006, 06:46 am
ddrek – some sanity on this board at last!!!
VISAGIE MAY BE RATED BY ALL AND SUNDRY FOR BEING THE BEST TECHNICAL TIGHTHEAD AROUND BUT HE IS CERTAINLY NOT RATED BY THE REFEREES!! HE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A LIABILITY FOR THE BOKS – A WALKING PENALTY! ALL HE DOES IS PUSH THE LIMITS OF THE LAW TOO FAR! HIS FACE IS ONE OF GUILT THAT EVERY REFEREE LOVES TO BLOW!
Now Deon may not have been up to much but before you comment on any prop you have to make sure he has a solid environment around him. He had Shimmie next to him – not match fit. Andrews – has not done much in S14 and behind there is Rossouw (a retreaded loosie) who has never been rated for his scrummaging and Van Der Berg (stringbean) another retreaded loosie!! In essence a completely new tight 5 combination. Difficult to judge them on this outing.
4 Jun 2006, 06:55 am
Oh and just to add to the saga of JW on Visagie – he has publically stated that he is not really looking at Visagie because he has identified a number of props that they have been investing in BUT the door is not closed to anyone. Now the media have spun that into some sensationalism – read between the lines. Special attention (and investment) is being paid to certain players that JW believes can be groomed to international standard HOWEVER if they do not perform OR some other player from outside that group performs significantly better then due consideration will be given.
But my personal opinion is that JW selects characters that he believes will fit in – outspoken players like Brits, Watson, Davidson won’t get a look in. He may well think the same about Visagie but I think he probably looks at the stats of how often he gets penalised. Now while it may be true that the refs don’t have a clue about scrumming and often the dominating front row gets pinged until that changes it is not worth having a rock solid front row that gives 6 points away every game! Rather just have a solid front row.
4 Jun 2006, 06:58 am
JP Pietersen should be with the Bok squad. He’ll make a fine winger and could be a star at the next WC
4 Jun 2006, 07:42 am
The scrums were actually not that bad. I saw this dramatised headline on keo and then went to watch the game and didn’t see much wrong. Both teams were scrumming inwards at just about every scrum (especially Cobus), and obviously under a decent ref they wouldn’t be able to get away with that.
4 Jun 2006, 11:49 am
Thanks BMM
Thought i may get lynched for my not running with the pack commments re Visage.
You continue my point very well….better than i can write it. I sawboots and ll and Jake was sound on it. He must back his players and get them to where he believes he can and if not,as he said ,the door will remain open. Just look at jaco,Snyman and Percy. He’s been more open than any bok coach that i remember.
Stoffel
Yes JP Pietersen i think is many muppits favourite and it would be good to see.
I hate it when people say ‘he isnt intnl standars’ re the Ndungane’s (not yet saaid about JP) ,what do they think that a guy must be there pre being selected. half of Boks arent when rookies….they get the culture ,get developed and many of them reach those heights when the faith is shown in them and the opportunity is given. A few times.
I’d like to see all 3 of them given their chance sometime.
4 Jun 2006, 15:21 pm
The All Blacks will be licking their lips at the prospect of logging another 50+ point record score…
4 Jun 2006, 15:56 pm
Cobus Visagie scrumed the life out of Deon Carstens and Lawrence Sephaka. If Visagie is not going to the world cup then Deon most certeinly is not going either. Cobus proved beyond the shadows of doupt that he is the best Tighthead available for SA selection. I wouldnt like to see what Heyman, White, De Veliers and Adam Jones could do to a ” child” like Deon Carstens. Jake better keep that door open, and he better pick Visagie for the world cup or we are going to suffer come world cup time. He can “invest” all he wants in these other props but quality is not somthing that can be tought.
4 Jun 2006, 19:25 pm
Agree with ddrek comments although i do think cobus scrummed very well its certainly not the first time he has been penalised for scrumming in and it wont be the last also its interesting that the article states that sephaka got a working over from cobus i actually thought things got alot better when lawrence he came on then again that may have something to do with the fact that cobus was subbed and most of sephaka’s scrums were against cristian califano again which is also ignored by the article but dont let the facts get in the way of a good story.
4 Jun 2006, 21:26 pm
so much for the new scrumming machine. worked wonders
5 Jun 2006, 01:28 am
One feels it may be a good thing that the Bok fifteen played so poorly. Expect mnay changes for Saturday. It did show up South africa’s lack of talent and the continueing playing people to satsify the quota is ruining S.A Rugby. The facts are tht there are no black forwards to international standard . Sephaka is a case in point. His scummaging is average at best and he is a trundler round the park. Has been for three years.On the other hand there are some very promising three=quarters and I think the twins must be so close to selections. The major weakness in South Africa is a lack of fly-halves. They are still churning out kicking fly-halves at school while the rest of the world are teaching youngsters the running game. In New Zealand they don’t have such things as fly=halves. Fom the cradle they are taught first five and second five i.e. inside centre to S.A, Consequently there are guys playing second division rugby in New Zealand who are better than the crop of fly-halves in S.A. Those who saw Carlos Spencer on Saturday should remember thare ara some just as good if not better playing in New Zealands. Incidently, the best fly=half I have ever seen in S A rugby was Hershell Gibbs. If his father hadn’t influenced him to choose Cricket after an injury. my bet he would have turned out the best Springbok fly= half for years. And he would have been .classified as a”quata” player. What a fiasco. Hamba Kahle
5 Jun 2006, 02:14 am
2j’s did you go to school with Gibb’s?
5 Jun 2006, 07:09 am
No pompies – out of my league. He went to Bishops.
5 Jun 2006, 07:25 am
The stadium was kinda empty lots of open seats….. i feel for the okes that paid to watch this bad show. You should have listen to the okes at the bar nobody was happy and they didnt even pay to watch this.
The world team almost beat us if it wasnt for tappe it been a draw.
5 Jun 2006, 08:27 am
MMM, well said, & spot on, Visagie HAS FOR YEARS SCRUMMED IN ON THE HOOKER AND PENALISED time & again for this. Yes DEON had a hard time of it, but look who he had pushing behind — albert 105 kg monster.Shimmie is not an international hooker and never will be. The lien we were fed by JW WAS A LOAD OF HOG WASH — QUOTE” John[ smit] said that shimmie and andrews were the strongest he had scrummed against all S14″
Was that colloboration between captain & coach to suite a “purpose” — wer are being lead up teh garden path once again.
5 Jun 2006, 08:32 am
I am not a big Klappe Henning fan myself, but to blame him for the spectacle on Saturday is unfair.
The 2 captains had no control over their players and with all the mistakes, Klappe had no chioce but to breath through his whistle.
If he did not blow them up, he would have been accused of being biased and one eyed.
5 Jun 2006, 16:42 pm
ktb and BMM
well said – Visagie was a walking penalt machine, and it dos seem like h doesn’t scrum straight uch, OR bind. The World XV coach is just hopping on teh bandwagon and defending the fact that if his team didn’t give away so many penalties, they would have had a couple of tries against them too. It is common for Oz and NZ sides to slow the ball down and lie over the back of the rucks when they are defending in their own half – they either slow down attack, or get pinged, either way, no tries against them. And if they dont get pinged- more’s the better. Watch how the Crusaders do it – no decent ball for any team playing them…
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