Stofile stuck in past
26 Jul 2007
Keo, in his Independent Newspaper column, asks why Minister of Sport Makhenkesi Stofile is willing to accept the Proteas as representative of a new South Africa, but not the Springboks?
Stofile remains adamant the Springbok World Cup squad does not represent South Africa as a new country.
He said it was proof South African rugby was stuck in the past.
Springbok coach Jake White included one ethnic black African and five coloured players in his World Cup squad of 30 – a number government officials said was not enough.
Rewind a few months to the cricket World Cup. The Proteas receive the following message: “Go out there and represent South Africa with dignity. We believe in you and we will be behind you as you stand toe-to-toe with Australia next week.” Yes, the same Stofile sent this message to a cricket side that did not contain one ethnic black player in the starting XI.
Staying with cricket, government officials and cricket administrators lauded the squad composition ahead of the World Cup. Seven players of colour in 15 was viewed as a dramatic breakthrough for transformation, but only one of those seven players was black African – Makhaya Ntini.
The window-dressing exercise at the cricket World Cup was completed when Roger Telemachus did not play a game, Loots Bosman played in one and the first choice slow bowler Robin Peterson bowled less overs than part-time spinner and captain Graeme Smith.
Prior to the tournament Smith told the media he believed in every player’s ability, but he obviously didn’t, otherwise Peterson would have bowled more. Telemachus did not bowl a ball in the West Indies, Peterson bowled just 72 and Bosman, picked as a batsman, never batted. Cricket’s transformation of the squad was a lie, which the government was willing to embrace.
Transformation in South African rugby since unification in 1991 has been a farce. We all know that, but it does not start with the selection of the national squad. A coach can only choose from the players available and in this light the squad is very representative of South African rugby’s player demographics.
This past weekend only seven ethnic black Africans started in eight premier division Currie Cup sides. Only five of these players are eligible to play for the Boks. When it comes to black African selection White is effectively picking from a pool of less than 10 and not 40 million who make up South Africa’s population.
The government should be condemning South African rugby’s failure to transform and should be demanding change at a domestic level. Instead all the criticism is irrationally levelled at the national squad. Cricket, no better than rugby when it comes to transformation, never feels the wrath of the Sports Minister or his colleagues. Why?
Is it because cricket was traditionally seen as an English sport and rugby as that of the Afrikaner? Does cricket get away with it because of the so-called white liberal association and rugby gets caned because of so-called Afrikaans conservatives?
If South African sport is to be transformed and representative of a new country then the sports ministry’s attitude has to be consistent to all sports, including cricket and soccer.
If Stofile believed so much in a cricket team devoid of black African representation, why can he not believe in a rugby team accused of a similar failing?
The answer could be that he, like rugby, is stuck in the past.
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240 Comments
26 Jul 2007, 08:11 am
Is he Stofile stuck in there?
I thought this thread was gone…
26 Jul 2007, 08:11 am
Stofile is from the Eastern Cape, which is rugby country, and cricket, to a lesser extent. Hence, he’s more sensitive about what’s happening in rugby. He was also a rugby administrator.
But I agree that, as Minister, he should be consistent and be more focused on getting the grassroots infrastructure transformed/developed, than be quibbling about the national team selections.
26 Jul 2007, 08:12 am
lol It should be
26 Jul 2007, 08:16 am
Well said keo. transformation should be so much more than just about artificial social engineering. It has to be about breaking down barriers-racial, sexual, monetary or ortherwise, that exist and serve to keep individuals from competing in a fair environment. And you can only successfully do that from the bottom up. And yes those barriers exist,but we have to be honest with each other-honest about the nuances in this country and the different gifts we have. Have you ever heard any complaints about the swimming team being untransformed? And that is a lily white sport. No artificial social engineering possible there.
26 Jul 2007, 08:23 am
Read this story on IOL yesterday…very well said Keo.
Do you think we can expect a response from our Minister?
26 Jul 2007, 08:36 am
I am sick of this **** from you Keo! There is no transformation in the sport, period! You and your gang keep feeding us rubbish about “the small pool of black players Jake has available to him!” yet you never mention how those entrusted with grooming these players at school level and provincial level! You are the same dude that lauded Jake for a representative under 21 team he coached, what happened to those players? There is this ceiling in rugby for black players that the great Keo will never dare expose instead you choose to feed us garbage rubbishing government and the Minister in particular. You would do well to remember what they say about people that live in glass houses, boet!!!
26 Jul 2007, 08:38 am
One of the major reasons as is with everything is money. There is more money to be made in rugby than cricket. Would be good to see transformation in soccer too. And now with the new rule that states that every olympic team has to be 50% transformed or they can’t go. I feel sorry for our swimming team then.
26 Jul 2007, 08:40 am
Oi #6, please tell us a little more about that ceiling…
26 Jul 2007, 08:42 am
#6 Yes, please do enlighten us Azza.
26 Jul 2007, 08:50 am
Azza there is a saying in afrikaans that goes: “moenie n ding ryp druk nie”
26 Jul 2007, 08:52 am
Good, and true article Keo.
26 Jul 2007, 08:53 am
Azza …your Minister Stofile is an idiot.Keo is right. You guys are still living in the past.South Africa has become a sporting joke because of your quota system. Why not embrace and get on with it on merit. Black folk have had 15 years of access to every facility.So the youngsters of today Black,White,Pink,Yellow whatever, have had the best thats on offer. Perhaps it is your reverse Apartheid thats a problem. Get that f…ng chip of your shoulder buddy.
26 Jul 2007, 08:53 am
Azza, go get a tan in your glass house boet. Keo just pointed out the reality of the situation. It is not his or JW’s fault. If I remember correctly Hanyani Shimangi was very much part of JW’s squad from 2004 – 2006 before he got a string of injuries. Solly Tybilika also had a chance but underperformed and had a few injuries. Tonderai Chavanga also got injured. Chilliboy is another one that got injured. That is already 4 ethnic black players that cost themselves a ticket to the world cup by underperforming or getting injured at crucial stages. JW had all of them in the squad at some stage. If anyone is to blame it is the ethnic black players themselves.
26 Jul 2007, 08:56 am
What, every team has to be 50% transformed. Racism, quite simply. You cant base transformation on the number of black people in a team, you base it on the number of black people that compete on an even footing to make that team.
Anyways Azza, you miss the point, Keo is saying that more must be done at provincial level, you cant blame white when he only has a handful of black players to choose from.
Of course the way he treated Julies compared to Olivier might appear dodge, but thats just white being all defence, defence, defence.
Anyway i find it annoying how white sport is the target of transformation but not black sport, its just so racist.
Perhaps I’ve got the semantics wrong here but I thought transformation was all about equal opportunity for all citizens, not giving jobs/positions to a black person because they are black. I’m all for true transformation believe me but I cant support racism.
26 Jul 2007, 09:02 am
I still reckon it is matter of changing perseptions. How many black kids would still rather play soccer than rugby and vice versa. A hell of a lot is being done to change that and I believe it is starting to happen. Maybe I am wrong but these like all things take time.
26 Jul 2007, 09:02 am
#14 like the last paragraph.So true.
26 Jul 2007, 09:08 am
I am so sick of this to be honest.
Keo it is a good article but it saying the same thing using different words.
Maybe we should demand transformation from our government concerning crime in SA to represent the demographics of good law-abiding citizens in SA, i.e. tax payers to that of criminals.
For every book and law they throw at rugby we can throw 10 back as to the responsibility of government to its citizen’s as found in our constitution and many international charters from the international community SA is part of.
Someone mentioned glass houses and that is exactly what this is, the people doing all the talk are the people responsible for this transformation in rugby. They obviously do not know what they are doing so maybe its time we demand something from these so-called leaders – to piss off.
26 Jul 2007, 09:11 am
Nie eens iets waaroor ek my mond sal oopmaak nie. Want ek sal net lelikke goette se van die mense. Hulle target net rugby. FFS , hoekom kyk hulle nie na ander sport kodes nie.
26 Jul 2007, 09:15 am
LoL @ Stofile – this guy enjoys a crust at the taxpayers expense. BJ Vorster – someone is stealing your clothes, eat your heart out!
26 Jul 2007, 09:15 am
Someone mentioned something very interesting to me the other night.
In Namibia apartheid was around for about 30 years before the international community basically forced SA (and effectively Namibia) to change which is all good of course.
But Namibia, who has gained its independence before SA released Madiba and held democratic elections, has now been going on as a normal society for about 20 years (just short), so basically a decade short of the time apartheid was the norm.
Now exactly the same is done as was done in apartheid in too many respects and the country itself is no-where close to being a ‘normal’ society (whatever that is).
Transformation, like apartheid puts a certain class of person in a ‘comfortable’ position, whites were comfortable during apartheid, now its switched, point is, nothing in society really changes other than the colour of the skin of the guy in charge making the laws and rules.
He said in 10 years from now the international community will step in and demand law changes to BEE and transformation as it is abnormal in society same as they demanded apartheid being put to an end because it too was abnormal.
Then the cycle just repeats itself…
Welcome to Africa.
26 Jul 2007, 09:17 am
The All Africa Games in Algiers has been dubbed the All Africa Fun and Games by some South African participants, but parts of the fun have apparently not been all that funny.
Speaking from Algiers, Manase Makwela, the media liaison officer of the department of sports and recreation, confirmed yesterday that there had certainly been a spate of high and low jinks at the games – which Makhenkesi Stofile, the minister of sport, said earlier were not be treated contemptuously by South Africans just because they were taking place in Africa.
The minister had said this, however, before attending one of the games’ medal ceremonies at which Die Stem, the old national anthem, rather than Nkosi sikelel’ iAfrika, the new and official one, had blared out over the loudspeakers as two South African swimmers received their medals.
It seems that the Algerian organisers felt our anthem was too long,” said Makwela, “so they truncated it.
“But they cut off, so to speak, the wrong end. So the minister was there when ‘Uit die blou van onse hemel’ and nothing else was played.”
LoL @ Stofile!
26 Jul 2007, 09:27 am
These comments are stuck in the past.
Hamster wheel!
26 Jul 2007, 09:30 am
Ag ons weet almal hoekom die dom mense daar is om sports te beheer.
26 Jul 2007, 09:31 am
I have a question which I need answered.
Beast Mtawarira and Brian Mujati are from Zimbabwe, correct?
Have they been capped or will they eventually qualify for the Springboks ala Chavanga?
Can anyone help me?
26 Jul 2007, 09:39 am
Talking about glass houses I can’t help noticing that most detractors from applying some serious development here are not even in the country, sounds like a whole lot of argumentation coming from way over yonder, how in God’s name can they really perceive or understand wtf is really going down when even those where its happening beneath their noses don’t?
26 Jul 2007, 09:40 am
People outside rugby will never change rugby. Rugby will only ever change if those involved want to change. ” Transformation” should not be about adding black players to a culture thats foreign to most.
Rugby needs to move on and embrace that we have a tottly differnt type of culture to create in rugby.
Tradition is lovely but someone created tradition and this a the time to create new traditions.
As for the goverment in rugby they can go suck on on something.
Rather then we complain about meddling of politicians lets ignore them. If we don’t give them the time of day they will not meddle.
Take it from a black person. No one wants quotas and no one wants this “transformation” that people are talking about. People are interested in integration rather.
26 Jul 2007, 09:43 am
26 Sorry about the typing errors I am a bit busy.
26 Jul 2007, 09:44 am
Hello skopskiet/skunk
Yes, when tragic events occur like that accident this week, I again realise that we leave this life the same…why not live it the same while we can.
Eishh boys, I don’t know…
26 Jul 2007, 09:47 am
Kom ons geniet maar die rugby terwyl ons nog kan. Lekker braai , biltong , droewors , dop. Volgende jaar sal niemand meer rugby wil gaan kyk nie.
Kyk hoeveel spelers verloor ons al klaar. Baie spelers weet hulle gaan nie volgende jaar kans kry om weer vir die bokke te speel nie. Daai outjie op skool wat sy hart uitspeel weet nou al die toekoms lyk bleuk. Kom ons gaan speel eerder rugby oorsee waar ek gekies gaan word omdat ek goed speel.
Dis ‘n fooookop. En dit gaan net erger raak
26 Jul 2007, 09:49 am
Mooi gese too true Pietman, its a sweet short journey from here to the next stop and the curtain comes down on this stage act sooner than we are prepared to realize.
26 Jul 2007, 09:51 am
Skunk,
You mention traditions need changing, it is quite interesting.
Not that I disagree but to me it is very easy to learn something new – the near impossible though is to un-learn something.
I think people are constantly trying to bring new ‘traditions’ to rugby, but for that to work we need to get rid of the old traditions somewhat – hence un-learning what we have learned.
That goes for both sides of the fence – the ones that were hard-done by and the ones that benefit from the old ways or times – we all have something to un-learn before we can move forward.
But as we see on a daily basis, people have a tough time of letting go.
26 Jul 2007, 09:51 am
Malnourished, impoverished black boys are more likely to find employment with a professional football club, because their physical deficiencies are not exposed there (however, when they play for Bafana, they get pushed around by stronger Europeans and West Africans). In rugby, such guys are eliminated quite early on. Hence, we cannot REALLY talk about “merit selection” when so many potential players don’t get even good basic nutrition. Our “merit” is restricted to the pool of those who’ve made it past the Darwinian selection process in the school system. The Government shoud be building sports academies where promising sportschildren are given proper food, education, etc.
26 Jul 2007, 09:52 am
“Transformation” is also an archaic word for a woman’s wig.
Stofile is pissed at the lack of decent hairpieces in SA Rugby.
26 Jul 2007, 09:54 am
Its only the boys within Sarsu and perhaps some small groups scattered around that are really doing a lot towards a real go forward change action, I hope those with the mandates and backing at their disposal start to doing something meaningful too.
26 Jul 2007, 09:56 am
Good morning Piet.
I was chatting to mates about that whole thing. Its true a sad day in our rugby when the ranting of a lunatic overshadow such a tragic event.
It also tells you Keo is only concerned about hits then anything else.
It would have been nice as supporters we started a fund for the accident victims and maybe do something positive. instead of bickering about how may people of what color are in what squad.
26 Jul 2007, 09:57 am
There’s no such thing as a genuinely “equal opportunity” in any sport anywhere in any country on earth.
If it’s at school level, some kids get to attend a top “rugby school” such as Grey College or Christchurch Boys’ High, and other kids don’t. Their parents send them to the local school just down the road. The provincial selectors for the school rep side don’t even bother to watch his school’s first XV play. There’s no “equal opportunity” for rugby players at these two different schools and only an ignoramus pretends otherwise.
When you join a club, the same applies. Join the front-runner clubs in the leagues and you’ll have a far better chance of playing rep rugby than if you’re playing for the club conveniently down the road but who occupy a cellar-dweller spot on the log.
Life’s not equal. Life’s unfair. So get over it already.
26 Jul 2007, 09:58 am
Got to go get some materials for a job, see you round again. So long for now.
26 Jul 2007, 10:00 am
31 PA
In that lies my gripe with this whole debacle. We should not be trying to reinvent the wheel. what we need to make things work is already here. It needs effort and not people going on TV shouting to get a better position in government.
There some people out there with the brains and the skill to make things work. But that will only happen if we move away from trying to force things.
26 Jul 2007, 10:02 am
tackler, your little analogy conveniently ignores the fact that the inequality here in SA is perfectly split down racial lines. And you conveniently choose to ignore why this is the case.
This is because you are who you are and you believe what you believe. In modern SA such views are held in contempt.
26 Jul 2007, 10:06 am
Tackler
Again you seem to miss the point of the chat. You are right in what you say but its been said before and we all know that.
What we are talking about is what rugby can do to move on. Things in this world will always be unfair to someone.
26 Jul 2007, 10:07 am
No it isn’t perfectly split down racial lines. Even inside the SAME race you have a MUCH better chance of catching the Craven Week selectors’ eye if you’re in the Bishops 1st XV than, say, in the Westerford 1st XV.
These are two “rich white” schools in the same suburb, within walking distance of each other.
26 Jul 2007, 10:08 am
Methinks a lot of people on this blog have missed the point of keo’s article completely and have used this as a platform for spitting out vitriol. keo’s agrees that transformation is 1) necessary and 2) hasn’t taken place. his concern is that criticism of these failures is not evenly distributed across the sports codes.on that score, I agree. reading the last line of the article again, i realise why people are so confused-how in the world do you reconcile this article with the minister being stuck in the past, keo?
Also, when did it start being ok to label our leaders as “idiots” and “lunatics”? we might disagree with them, but my experience is that foreign nations are unlikely to respect us as a nation if we are the first ones to refer to our leaders as such. disagree with them. criticise them. but do it respectfully. it says a lot about our nation
26 Jul 2007, 10:09 am
Life is ALWAYS going to be unequal and unfair. Get used to it. That’s the way it will always be, no matter what you do to try to force equality on everyone.
26 Jul 2007, 10:11 am
Stofile!
Start living and let it be… the hero’s will rise and the fakes will slowly go into demise.
Let’s stalk about Eddie Andrews (although he is not “ethnicâ€); he had all the chances in the world yet he thanks the Springbok coach that gave him that chances by being constantly unfit, ill disciplined and lazy on the field. He thanks the WP union (that is in financial mayhem) that spends so much on him, in the same way.
Then there is Laurence Sephaka: he had all the chances too… and he did just the same as Eddie, well he was even worse mind you; he did not have the discipline to keep himself in shape at all!
The amounts of money spend on his conditioning and his enormous salary did not balance with what he gave back. We are talking of several hundreds of thousands of Rands and 4 times more money than the government was willing to give for development in SA Rugby as a whole…
Quinton Davids, he had opportunities he did not deserve but when he was given the chance to play in the WC he would cut corners in training and just didn’t do his part. Just typical: a person that did not do the hard grafting to get to the top… and he was found out. He was lazy as hell in training and just never there on the discipline front.
Then he went oversee and he quickly realized that he must “play†there, to get into the team (no token preference). So, he came back, got a lifeline from Rassie and again he sheettet on his own “stoep†again! All the ability in the world but just not the will to get out there and DO it!
Solly… need I say more? What a joke he has made of himself and the ones that invested so much in him… despite all the criticism. I suppose that in the end the criticism was justified!
The bottom-line is that if a player doesn’t do his part he will not make it. Clubs can not afford such charities and will rather invest in players that want too and can deliver!
The good players: Unions will pay big bucks to get those players but money can only buy what is for sale or available!
The mentioned players missed an opportunity to be an inspiration for the ones that will follow and they turned their backs on the ones that helped them to receive so easily! So sorry mate… they buggered themselves and their futures!
Don’t dare to start with the ethnic black topic… Why are the black players from Zim in SA teams? Don’t you think the coaches would love to have ethnic SA players in their teams? Funny thing though… all the foreign player come from countries where things in society goes very bad and if you want to get to the top you have to plan and WORK very hard. Those players don’t have discipline problems because they didn’t receive their opportunities on a “Silver Plateâ€; they WORKED for it!
You can “demand†your way to the top… but you will be measured and found wanting: the examples are scattered all over the papers… your name too!
26 Jul 2007, 10:11 am
Keo has consistently argued for equality of opportunity, and so have black sports people. However, when the measure used for assessing this – “representivity” – became a target, i.e., quota, it ceased to be a valid measure. We haven’t found another measure yet.
Equity – equality of opportunity – is not the same as equality (of outcomes).
Black and white boys who’ve gone to good rugby schools are just as likely to decide to become accountants, financial advisers (e.g., Andrew Aitken) or doctors, than rugby professionals. Or they’ll just “drop out” after school to have a good jol with girls and buddies. This dilutes the pool of black rugby players even more. Dof guys like Herschelle Gibbs and Percy Montgomery go to such good schools, then waste their expensive education by becoming rugby players. They would have done better (and much cheaper) by going to Bellville South High, like Bolla Conradie, or Scottsville High, like Adrian Jacobs.
26 Jul 2007, 10:12 am
Skunk dont try and talk to Tackler about moving on…
He wont get it.
And life is unfair – 20 years since WC glory proves that. Get over it because it will be another 4.
26 Jul 2007, 10:12 am
“Transformation” is NOT necessary and it will NEVER take place of its own accord OR by imposition by the ruling regime who have set it as their goal.
Pick teams on merit. Let the cards fall as they may.
26 Jul 2007, 10:12 am
#24 My understanding is as long as they take citizenship and after an effluxion of a certain amount of time, they may play for the Springboks. I dont think either of them played for Zimbabwe.
26 Jul 2007, 10:13 am
Tackler
I know this pointless but I will tell you this anyway.
Rugby in this country has a lot gain form integration. The biggest being that some of our coaches will start to think a bit more differently thus growth in our game look at it that way.
26 Jul 2007, 10:16 am
PA
All is not lost with. If he didn’t care about SA he would not here. He cares just much as the both of us. He tries really hard to hide that but if wade through the fake tough skin you see that.
26 Jul 2007, 10:17 am
Integration isn’t even remotely the “issue”.
Selecting teams — and judging the worth of teams — on race-based political criteria (“transformation quotas”/ faux “equality”) is the issue.
It’s wrong.
Merit is the way to go.
26 Jul 2007, 10:18 am
Transformation is a proxy fight directed at gatekeepers who should be opening up opportunities. This was never a problem in football – professional clubs like Highlands Park, Hellenic, Rangers, Wits, created opportunities for black players even when it was against the law, because they needed them. Hence, football isn’t part of the racial transformation debate. But rugby administrators have the stigma and label of not opening the doors energetically enough, hence rugby being targeted.
26 Jul 2007, 10:19 am
#42… Diddy!
If a leader is useless, incompetent and fit the “ugly†description, don’t expect me to shut up! What did Stofile do for Rugby? What is his contribution? How can it be measured?
26 Jul 2007, 10:20 am
#52 Henry
Unfortuanately you sre spot on!
26 Jul 2007, 10:20 am
Stigmas are often unfair and unearned. One does not remove an unjustified stigma by pandering to it.
26 Jul 2007, 10:21 am
Profound wisdom from the tackler yet again. “that’s how it is so get over it!” Amazing. Don’t try to change it,no. just accept it. So what about crime in this country tackler? shouldn’t we try to change that either, seeing as that’s how it is? forgive us for hoping that anything should change when it’s not ideal
26 Jul 2007, 10:27 am
#48
4man
“effluxion”
Well done on using a 50 buck word that even Tackler doesn’t understand!
26 Jul 2007, 10:27 am
You CAN — and SHOULD — deal with crime and get it under control. It’s do-able.
You CANNOT and SHOULDN’T stray one inch off the straight and narrow path of merit selection. Any other sort of race-selection/ forced “equality” is never going to work. It’s not do-able.
Try as hard as you like for as long as you like, but in the end it won’t work. It’s against human nature.
Rugby players are NOT all “equal”. Nor is society at large, no matter how hard we try to pretend otherwise.
26 Jul 2007, 10:27 am
So merit is the way to go, is it tackler? but i thought the type of school a schoolboy goes to influences selection, didn’t you say. in that event, a better player from westerford is less likely to be selected than one from bishops. and your solution to that is “get over it. life is unfair.” in that event, not even merit is the way to go
26 Jul 2007, 10:28 am
So merit is the way to go, is it tackler? but i thought the type of school a schoolboy goes to influences selection, didn’t you say. in that event, a better player from westerford is less likely to be selected than a poor one from bishops. and your solution to that is “get over it. life is unfair.” in that event, not even merit is the way to go
26 Jul 2007, 10:33 am
Nobody in the selectorial inner-circle even bothers to WATCH a Westerford 1st team play. And, let’s be fair, there’s very little reason to do so.
If a firecracker player ever DID emerge from Westerford, the boys’ parents would do well to enrol him at Bishops to get noticed. And that’s what they’ll do. If they don’t… too bad. That’s life.
26 Jul 2007, 10:33 am
Tackler
If you bothered to read what I posted before you would have know that is what I was talking about.
And if you actually knew what was going on in our rugby you would know that is the biggest problem we have. Remove the stigmas that have incorrectly being put on certain people through race and politics.
26 Jul 2007, 10:35 am
#58… Ditto!
26 Jul 2007, 10:36 am
I have read what you said #62. I’m just not impressed with it. That’s all.
26 Jul 2007, 10:38 am
64
Sorry I’ll try harder next time.
26 Jul 2007, 10:38 am
Get with the program Stofile. I am so sick and tired of this transformation/quota ****. For the first time in many years most people are happy with the squads composition, but the politicians have nothing better to do.
Rather concentrate on other issues, stop playing the race card all the time.
I see more black people with Springbok jerseys on than Bafana Bafana tops, why is this ?
The Springbok will NOT dissapear from our rugby jerseys, if it does it will be a sad day for SA Sport, and a MAJOR step back for this country.
MAN, THIS **** MAKES ME CROSS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
26 Jul 2007, 10:41 am
66
Cos the bok jersey is way cooler!
26 Jul 2007, 10:43 am
So merit isn’t even the issue then, tackler. teams never have been selected on merit, ever. maybe we should accept that too and never use it as an alternative to quotas
26 Jul 2007, 10:46 am
Azza, no knowledge is Fu^%$king dangerous knowledge!!!
The Springbok emblem has nothing to with apartheid or transformation… Why does Stofile think so… He should stop worrying about **** and think about sport as a whole!!!
All the black and white people calls the Springboks the BOKKE!!!!!
26 Jul 2007, 10:49 am
I think that Aza ask’s a valid questions about what happens to junior black players b-coz if u look at all our junior squads, u will find that they are more than representative in terms of colour and talent. The same could be said about schools rugby & even Craven week. However I do think that Keo has a valid point about saying that the focus for transformation should be @ da lower ranks i.e. Provincial and the national team will follow naturally b-coz u find that u will hve black players selecting themselves purely on merit.
If I think about our current squad, not even a single black with the exception of Waylon Murray comes to mind in terms of deserving to make the world cup squad. In fact there are some black players whom one could argue their inclusion i.e. Willemse & da Ndungane twin (picked the wrong twin). Even as a black rugby fan, I do feel that Stofile and the portfolio committee are a bunch of losers who are ***cking up our sports especially rugby.
They need to be consistent in their approach when it comes to all sporting codes. Look at da mess our soccer is in and yet they are doing nothing about. I really liked the article about what the president of Saru said about transformation, this sounded like a sensible approach.
We do still need to understand what happens to players of colour when they have to break into senior provincial ranks.
26 Jul 2007, 11:01 am
Teams all over the world ARE selected on merit.
From the talent on display.
The inequality woven all through life comes about in the fact that what is on display didn’t get there along the same primrose path. And that, out there somewhere, there may well be a greater talent than what is on display to the merit selectors. Or maybe there isn’t. We cannot know.
As a fine poet once wrote: “Full many a flower is born to blush unseen/And waste its sweetness on the desert air”
That’s life.
26 Jul 2007, 11:05 am
every time keo talks ****, you bandits follow.
26 Jul 2007, 11:07 am
Stofile is inderdaad van die Oos-Kaap af. Ek self kan die PH nie verdra nie. Sy agenda is polities en dit hoort nie in sport nie.
Ek kan nou nog nie glo dat Jake White hierdie 30 spelers kon kies nie. Dis ‘n pluimpie vir SA Rugby.
26 Jul 2007, 11:15 am
I still think transformation is a bit of joke. They should have had a mandela 15 team by now.
I blame that on SARU. Instead of them picking on the past maybe create something new. Theer are enough players to create an all black south african team.
They can start playing games against the new zealand maoris and maybe lesser teams like Japan, USA etc.
They could have had this up and running ages ago, Paulse could have been the first captain.
But SARU would rather lay into the past etc etc
26 Jul 2007, 11:27 am
72# ethiger
Howzit?
You there Saturday? I have a sponsorship on the ‘Most Promising Player’.
Go check that it is a fair decision please, I can’t be there!
26 Jul 2007, 11:32 am
I’m no fan of Stofile BUT,
I guess the difference is that the cricket franchises and the game on the whole is better represented by key players of colour. Transformation has been way better than rugby.
In general, i think there are more non-white rugby players than cricket players and bigger teams and squads yet they are behind.
It’s a game of stats and can manipulated in many ways. End of the day, transformation has been a farce no matter who is writing the article.
26 Jul 2007, 11:32 am
And maybe out there there’s a littany of talented players who’s paths are littered with thorns and entangling weed. we should espouse to at least remove these from their paths. at least that’s my belief. but if it is the darwinian approach that gets you excited, i’ll get over it! cheers
26 Jul 2007, 11:34 am
It is a pity that this article is not resulting in a discussion of Rugby as a professional sport, i.e. as a business with a profit motive. Most of the posts here above respond to Keo’s thoughtful article by concentrating upon the purely political aspects – but in truth the emphasis should be upon how Rugby in SA is to survive (and thrive?) from a financial perspective.
This will, in all likelihood, be the very last appearance of the Springbok symbol at a World Cup and moreover, this present team will, in all probability also be the last really competitive team ever selected.
And, less the above statement be misconstrued, that is NOT to suggest that players “of colour†are somehow constitutionally incapable of being selected on merit! The Tobias’ and Williams’ and the Paulse’s and a host of others have won the Green and Gold on merit and served with distinction!
But as I wrote here some weeks ago, the point is precisely what Keo is depicting, the Springbok team as it is at present, is already pretty much representative of the status quo in rugby.
The demographic distrubution of Rugby players, suppporters and interest in the sport, and therefore also of financial inputs, is simply not the same as that in the general populace.
That is a very real problem that needs to be addressed at the levels which produce the players and supporters of the future.
A “quick-fix at the top†through enforcing uncompetitive “quota†teams will simply serve to destroy the capital base of Rugby as a business and therefore as a professional game.
If Bok or Protea teams are not selected on merit and become increasingly uncompetitive, then interest and eventually also attendance (including television audiences) will start dropping abroad.
Rugby is a business, whether one wants to believe that or not, and big business at that. Big business needs big money. Lose attendance figures abroad and thereafter at home and the business dies!
Just observe Namibia and Zimbabwe for examples of the future of uncompetitive teams!
In order to enlarge the component of players “of colour†in the national teams (including franchise teams) the representative component of such players and supporters MUST firstly be swelled across the lower (feeder) echelons.
If not, then Rugby, or at least professional rugby, in SA is doomed.
Let’s hope that sanity – or business sense – eventually does dictate!
26 Jul 2007, 11:38 am
When will these idiots realise that rugby is not played traditionally by the black community. Their preferred sports is cricket, soccer, athletics and boxing
It has been documented all over the world. Rugby is a sport played by the higher income class. This can be seen in England, Argentina, South Africa, France
CATCH A WAKE UP
26 Jul 2007, 11:43 am
cyberscamp
It is easy to call it business sense because it favours you. Unfortunately, i see your argument as the same as people who stocked up on cans before Mandela’s release and had “end of the world parties” before the ’94 elections.
Zimbabwe and Namibia were never forces in sport and Namibia has never been a team of colour.
Transformation has not happened as it should and when the government steps in, nobody to blame other than the boneheads that run the game.
The Spears were the middle ground that could have settled the debate. Every week i see players black and white from Spears territory doing so well for other provinces and then i wait for the Lions to deliver another piss-poor show.
26 Jul 2007, 11:44 am
79
Where do you live? I am black and I know over a hundred black players who play club rugby in Durban and Pmb. Do the Math. A lot of black people play the sport. In a few years they will out number white players is numbers.
26 Jul 2007, 11:46 am
Yeah Coach
Love to know where you got that info from…
One hell of a thumb you must have to suck
26 Jul 2007, 11:47 am
skunk
He is clueless – the soweto rugby club was formed through EC mine workers. Saying cricket is more popular than rugby is a really stupid statement.
26 Jul 2007, 11:50 am
Kevin
The problem is we are too rigid in our ways. The fear was that it would have killed a traditional powerhouse of SA rugby.
Traditions are there to be redefined.
26 Jul 2007, 11:56 am
jeez i didn’t know Tackler can actually talk sense… but the only thing you are probably missing Tackles is… racism leads to wars and bombings… its not the same with arguing with your neighbour about her dog ‘s dumpings in your side of the fence… and in sa it was designed… it will take another re-designing to try make it right…
26 Jul 2007, 11:58 am
Mark….. very well written article. I was thinking the other day if there are more than just ‘transformation’ issues at stake here. Let me explain. Subconsciously I think we (humans) will always feel more comfortable within our own culture. Look at British football. Benetiz at Liverpool has surrounded himself with Spanish players. Arsene Wegner at Arsenal has surrounded himself with French players. Even Mourinho at Chelsea brought in a few Portuguese players! That is not an excuse for not including the black talent coming through……but its another factor to consider…….we sa humans are predisposed towards our own ilk.
26 Jul 2007, 11:59 am
post 86………we AS humans are predisposed towards our own ilk. Sorry!
26 Jul 2007, 12:12 pm
We were the laughing stock at the Cricket World Cup and the day we send anything but our best 30 Rugby players to the world cup Rugby ,is the day that all Rugby supporters in this country start supporting Yukskei !( Yes we still the world champs at Yukskei )
There is enough ethnic talent at Craven Week for us to start producing more brilliant Black players ,i just wish the Polititians would stop using sport to get votes .
26 Jul 2007, 12:12 pm
#87 What does that mean.
26 Jul 2007, 12:23 pm
#80 Kevin w: Favours me? In what possible way – I am a professional rugby coach in the UK?
Moreover I was an ANC member when the party was still illegal in SA. I was also a member at the founding meeting of the the UDF – one of the the very first signatories on the founding constitution! I thereafter went into exile in a neighbouring country etc, etc – eventually ending up in the UK.
So really, do try to think before you make assumptions and completely unjustified statements!
What I was trying to present to you (all SAcans) was that rugby is a business – and MUST be treated as such.
In other words decisions involving the future of the professional aspect of Rugby (as opposed to informal and amateur rugby) should always be taken from a financial perspective – in the same fashion that governments do not regulate good businesses out of existence.
If any other government does what the Zimbabwe government did to both its cricket and rugby unions, and in so doing destroys the credibility (which is ultimately based upon the competitiveness) of the sport, then the revenues are directly affected and the sport eventually dies.
When that happens the business machine that drives the existence and momentum of the sport itself goes into a permanent and terminal decline and the entire country suffers as a result!
Ad that is not a political issue as such, for it is simply an economic fact!
26 Jul 2007, 12:45 pm
I have read most of your comments and realized that what Steve Biko once said is the sad truth in SA today. He said “black man, you are alone.” If anything, this blog has proven that!!!
26 Jul 2007, 12:59 pm
Azza
That was 30 years ago!
Surely it doesn’t still apply now ?
26 Jul 2007, 13:00 pm
Dawn. very true indeed.hamster-wheel.
Keo makes some valid points…but from my perspective it’s a glass-house scenario: of all the people he ‘employs’(if Ig,ryan,jc,simon are indeed employees) just how many are black?Is this website transformed i.e any black contributors? – because its proprietor constantly shows indignation at the myriad arguments arising from transformation in sport (and lack thereof).
ALL FACETS of society in our country require transformation.The two most crucial things to its success are buy-in from the powers that be(i.e employers) and also a workable implementation plan with regard to sport i.e bottom-up and not top-down.
26 Jul 2007, 13:14 pm
i started writing something then just got soooooo bored and deleted it….. in the words of Madonna! “we heard this all before”
black white black white black white.. How can there ever be unity when there is segregation by the leaders?
The solution is simple ” forget about colour and start investing money into disadvantaged areas! Sound easy? It really is!
26 Jul 2007, 13:15 pm
all the rest is just hot air!
26 Jul 2007, 13:17 pm
Azza, didnt you know this. Is there anything a White man has done or ever will do for a Black man. Equal opportunity, merit, access to facilities….. you wish. On average, White okes dont like us, dont care to like us and hate the fact that we share the same air as them…..on average. My man they never even said sorry for apartheid and I seriously doubt they even felt bad. A Black man cant and never will be able to do anything in their eyes. Accept this, its the reality of our countrymen…..in general. Those that dont fall into the general category never ever stand up for right and justice so I have zero problem in making broad sweeping statements. They are all the same.
Look at this site. How often do they try and paint Black anything as incompetent, lazzy, not to be trusted etc etc. Have they even bothered to expose the blantant rascism that exist in Rugby. Where are all the High School 1st team and u19/u21 Black players from the last decade.
My brother, we dont need their approval or opinions on matters. Their interest are narrow and run along racial lines. As such, we having the political power need to legislate transformation forcing every representative level and provincial team to have a predetermined percentage of players of colour. Full stop. Nothing else will work. DOnt for a second think White people in general will do the right thing of opening up their instituitions, structures and Rugby to include us out of their free will. Dont forget that we are sub-human to them. My advise to you, dont even feel bad. Leave them (in general) with Tony Leon and his cronies in the never never land of irrelavance. We’ll make this land great….with or without them.
26 Jul 2007, 13:23 pm
Nice Odogg…. you also still living in the past!
26 Jul 2007, 13:25 pm
Hellooooo odogg!
26 Jul 2007, 13:25 pm
“The blacks are tired of standing at the touchlines to witness a game that they should be playing. They want to do things for themselves and all by themselves.” Steve Biko!
last line sounds alot like something a boer would say!
26 Jul 2007, 13:26 pm
DD, you tell me whats changed about attitudes towards Black people at large. We are telling you the truth, as it is. We reached out to you guys in 1994 and you okes aint done jack to reach back and rebuild this country. Once again, whats changed about your attitudes towards us.
26 Jul 2007, 13:27 pm
#96 I love it how odogg can say what he has about “The White” man, and that wont be deemed racism. But if a white guy mentions any term that has “Black” in it, it’s taken as Racism. A sporting team should be chosen on merit, thats it. And odogg you say what has the white man ever done for you, what has this govt. done to help anyone black or white. The top govt. are the only ones that benefit. The poor are still getting poorer. Everyone wants everthing given to them these days, they dont want to work for it.
26 Jul 2007, 13:29 pm
Hello Pietman.
I have been hurting ever since the team was announced. I feel robbed. I feel like the spirit of the country we are trying to build had been robbed. The singular selection of Wyaand Olivier over Waylon Murray and Wayne Julies epitomised all that is wrong in SA Rugby. The right wing has won this battle.
26 Jul 2007, 13:35 pm
You know what?
I think Keo is black.
26 Jul 2007, 13:35 pm
Carefull not to generalize odogg. A hell of a lot of white people are doing fantastic work rebuilding this country…..think about it. If you for some reason do not believe it,it really is your problem if you suffer from tunnel vision.
26 Jul 2007, 13:36 pm
Typical Wobas, typical. Listen, you have zero idea of the conditions we lived in during apartheid so shut your mouth re anything the government has done for us cause you wudnt understand. And regarding your precious merit, is this some kind of scientific measuring instrument that determines nplayer eligibility or is it a White coach or selector making this “merit” call. You cant be judge, jury and excecutioner. Actually dont respond to that cause I doubt you will have the intellect to understand my point.
26 Jul 2007, 13:36 pm
#102 Damn for once we agree on something odogg. Reckon Waylon deserved a shot ahead of Wynand
26 Jul 2007, 13:41 pm
Howzit Kwagga,
I think we agree on alot of things, just the mechanics of it that seem to generate debate.
26 Jul 2007, 13:42 pm
You’re right Odogg,i dont know the conditons of apartheid. I was born mid 80′s & so were my black friends. We cant stand how our forefathers carry on with apartheid. It was a terrible thing that haapend. But we’ll never be able to get past it if the youth of today are made to hate one another coz of what happend. As with Waylon VS Wynand, i agree totally. Waylon shouldve gone, Wynand did nothing to prove he should be there.
26 Jul 2007, 13:47 pm
Wobas, this is whats happen right through the divisions. Its just that its not publicised. Black okes are not being given a fair opportunity to develop, get game time and be groomed into better players. Its sacrilage what happens to these young Black Boys. They put their all into rugby only to be stuffed around and fuqd over by a Rugby administration and media that is intent on keeping the game of Rugby the sole preserve of the White race
26 Jul 2007, 13:52 pm
At the end of WW1 the German Weimar republic was in dissaray – the average German had nothing.
Hitler and the Nazi party came to power and promised to make the German Aryan nation proud and in so doing rebuild Germany.
He started by removing Jews and other non-Aryans from positions of power (INCLUDING SPORTS TEAMS) culminating in 100% Aryan representation at the 1936 Olympics in Germany.
Jews were dispised because they were seen as non-German, and a minority which had way too much economic, social and political power.
I’ve always assumed South Africa to be different in that we all want to make South Africa great, not make blacks or whites great at the expense of the other. That to me was Nelson Mandela’s dream.
Stofile and co obviously don’t agree…..
26 Jul 2007, 14:01 pm
I am going to stick my neck out here and say good on you Odogg except for one thing try not to throw every last ditch of rational perspective out the window, else we might just be in for a spell of Stalinist type revolution.
26 Jul 2007, 14:03 pm
Skopskiet, nothing else will work.
26 Jul 2007, 14:08 pm
Odogg!! please!! cant you see its our goverments failings! Instead of standing up and shouting we demand that you transform they should be doing something proactive.. I also think that WO should not be there.. but im sure right now people In france or England or wherever are debating how Laurence Delialio has made the squad etc only in SA there has to be some underlying race thing.
26 Jul 2007, 14:09 pm
odogg Come to the rugby on Saturday, no right wingers there, except on the pitch!
26 Jul 2007, 14:11 pm
I can understand your feelings of frustration believe me Odogg I know some of what you feel cos even though I have not been one to suffer the dire consequences of the blind perpetrators activities I have been witness to the blindness and watch it with absolute disbelief and amazement still. Nevertheless I would still urge you to still hold some hope and faith in abeyance otherwise the reverse of the pendulum swing may only keep the cycle repeating itself add infinitum, somewhere somehow, somebody must stop the villifying pendulum swinging too and fro.
26 Jul 2007, 14:11 pm
It is a underlying race things when things almost always go against the Black oke.
26 Jul 2007, 14:11 pm
Ek kan dit nie meer vat nie.
I’m gonna jump.
26 Jul 2007, 14:15 pm
Pietman and friends are the true leaders in the field of bridge building, not politicians, nor sports administrators, neither coaches or assistant coaches, its the real pioneers who have thrown down the gauntlet to aristocratic make believe do gooders and have gone out into the trenches and declared war on the atrocities of misrepresentation.
26 Jul 2007, 14:16 pm
Where you gonna jump to Dawn, you got a parachute?
26 Jul 2007, 14:19 pm
115,
Wisdom. mmmmmhhhhh. I hear you.
26 Jul 2007, 14:20 pm
115 agreed
26 Jul 2007, 14:20 pm
Dawn, if you jump, I promise to I’ll catch you.
26 Jul 2007, 14:24 pm
Yep hold faith its just a trick around the corner before the wheel starts turning, the dinosaurs are en route to extinction believe me, the new beginnings will start their course of momentum pretty soon, next it will be to see who can steer the ship of new beginnings on a truly encouraging course and direction.
26 Jul 2007, 14:25 pm
Skunk & Kevin W
take a look at the demographics. Of course there are exceptions
I am not saying that no black players dont play rugby.
Most of the black community play soccer then cricket.
26 Jul 2007, 14:27 pm
odogg,
I’m not a South African. I live in a supposed tolerant society (is there such a thing?)
I would like to think that I don’t have any racial prejudices.
Can you tell me how enforcing quotas and pushing people into positions that their experience doesn’t merit is going to benefit SA in the long run? It’s a country that requires a competitive workforce to survive in the global marketplace. We all have to think about the global market whilst balancing our requirements at home.
Onto rugby, the problems lie at grassroots level. I’m sure there is some institutionalised racism in rugby, the same as there will be in every other walk of life in SA. I’ve seen it and experienced it in my own visits. But racism is a multi edged sword. It is white on black and black on white, it is white on Asian and Asian on white, black on asian and asian on black etc. etc.
Rather than join in the bun fight, wouldn’t you rather rise above it and set the example that will lead South Africa to a successful and prosperous future for all races, creeds and colours that the world so desperately wants South Africa to achieve?
26 Jul 2007, 14:29 pm
125..here here!!
26 Jul 2007, 14:35 pm
ditto 125 & 126
26 Jul 2007, 14:39 pm
Stodders,
Victor Matfield didnt just becme Victor Matfield. It was through development, opportunitites and mentoring that he became world class. Bakkies had a shocker on debut but continued to receive opportunity and grooming until he became world class. The same is not being afforded to Black players of potential. What quotas will do is force administrators and coaches to select Black players. The wise unions will invest money and time to groom and develop these Black players so as to ensure they lose nothing in terms of quality compared to White Players. net result, grooming and development of lack players till they are world class.
26 Jul 2007, 14:46 pm
Coach … where do you live in SA – because there must be a hell of a lot of black cricket clubs in your area.
stodders … we all know it should happen at grassroots level, but there is little finance at grassroots level. The large franchises CANNOT produce players of colour – why – they don’t have to. Living in the EC and the same goes for guys in the WC, we see these players and next thing they have a Bulls or a Sharks jersey on and are afforded little gametime.
cyberscamp … for all your political credentials, i find it strange that you are happy with the current transformation in thegame. But then again, you fought so hard for a country but choose to live in another for … financial gain maybe.
The Spears were the middle ground and the answer to transformation woes… like it or lump it. We will watch the Lions embarrass SA for another year and i feel very little sympathy.
26 Jul 2007, 14:50 pm
118# Well thank you Mr Skopskiet, Sir.
Your kind words are much appreciated.
People don’t usually treat me that politely over here.
Nee, ek waardeer skopskiet. Ek wil graag saamwerk en die verkeerde dinge wat gebeur het help regmaak.
Dis hoekom ek odogg nooi om die ‘struggle’ te skuif na n positiewe uitkyk vorentoe.
Madiba het ons gewys hoe, en hy gaan nie daarvan hou as ons al sy goeie werk en swaarkry in die wiele ry nie.
Kyk daai man se gelukkige gesig toe hy die Wereldbeker omhoog gehou het.
Ek wil Stofile en daai ou ouens so sien weer, al is daar ook 15 swart ouens in die span.
Ek het nie n saak met kleur nie.
26 Jul 2007, 14:51 pm
Odogg, thanks boet.
i really couldn’t believe what people are saying on this! These are the same guys that don’t sing nkosi sikelela at the game but they wanna tell us about national unity! They will always use the same old tired argument against blacks to exclude them from the sport.
Government should no longer leave transformation in the hands of administrators, MAKE IT LAW! Then you will see how many people on this blog will run out of the country to England! If that’s what it takes, SO DAMN BE IT!!!
26 Jul 2007, 14:53 pm
odogg,
I agree with your bottom to top approach. Only when players prove themselves at one level should they be promoted to the next. To do that of course, they need opportunities. On that we agree.
But if a white kid shows more consistency and talent over a non-white one if both have been given the same support and development, the white kid in my book should get the nod. Vice versa, the non-white one should if better.
Every coach will have his favourites because he feels they can carry out his gameplan. But if players, irrespective of their colour, are good enough they will succeed and adapt to differing styles and coaches.
26 Jul 2007, 14:59 pm
Kleur is net n ontduidelike gesig, niemand kan rerig enege iemand se hart duidelik toeken, nou is dit die tyd om kleur en al sy kortkomings uit die venster te gooi vir eeuwaards en altyd. Die game moet stoking kry van onder af soos wat julle daar in Bethlehem en Soweto probeer doen, dis die enigste mannier om die velde te probeer gelyk te maak, ek hoop julle gaan slaag om die ding op die gang te kry en die swaar wiel te begin rerig te laat rol Pietman.
26 Jul 2007, 14:59 pm
Azza 131#
Aagh man, that so naive and yesterday, bro.
That is exactly what shouldn’t happen.
It will get you nowhere.
But, anyway…
26 Jul 2007, 15:00 pm
133# skopskiet
Dankie, ons gaan nie ophou voor ons klaar is nie, glo my.
26 Jul 2007, 15:07 pm
Ek moet nou gaan, voerentoe en aahou tot die saak opgelos is, geluk, totsiens Pietman.
26 Jul 2007, 15:09 pm
skopskiet
Mooi loop.
Loer in daar op daai site en sien hoe ons vorder.
26 Jul 2007, 15:09 pm
Azza go play with your legos and let the grown up people talk!
26 Jul 2007, 15:14 pm
#128 Odogg valid point but am I wrong in saying that the players of colour like eddie andrews and lawrence sephaka etc was identified and given a hell of lot of rope but they just threw it away? Yet a guy like for example Hilton Lobberts is a far better prospect for the future. Question I am asking is simply are the guys in charge identifying the correct players to develop?
26 Jul 2007, 15:14 pm
Coach
It is this simple. You have no idea about what’s going on around you. Give it up.
26 Jul 2007, 15:14 pm
Kwagga
Jis mater.
Is jy al in daar by die ondersteunersgroep?
En Cousin?
26 Jul 2007, 15:16 pm
#141 yes pietta cousin kom na my toe vannad dan gaan ons bietjie opspring. Wou al gisteraand dit doen maar die vrou het heeltemal ander planne gehad.
26 Jul 2007, 15:17 pm
vannad? vanaand
26 Jul 2007, 15:18 pm
Kwagga
Saak is reg
Skunk
You driving down to Margate?
Look out for that guy in the blue suit with horns, ek se!
26 Jul 2007, 15:18 pm
Coach,
quite a few Black Rugby players of Nigerian origin played at the highest level for England – Victor Ubugo for 1, and in American Football – many players of Black origin, so to suggest that Black South Africans are not drawn to Rugby Union is ridiculous. I lived in South Africa when Black Players were not allowed to play Rugby in “white” clubs. Given the opportunity they will succeed. The SA goverment wants to redress the sins of the past before Merit kicks in. I for one think they’re right. They don’t care about one “lost generation” as they’ve had 300 years of lost generations, so you may have to accept bad results for 20 years or so, to achieve the greater good.
26 Jul 2007, 15:20 pm
Stodders, I agree about the White kid stuff but we will have to go through a transitional phase where quotas will force coaches to give opportunities to Black players. In time, once unions are investing as much energy into developing Black talent as they do White talent, what you will find is an equal competition for positions between Black and white players as they wud have received equal opportunity frm the get go and it wud truly be up to who is the better player. As it stands now the White player will on average be better not because of his genetics but simply because he has been given more opportunity, training and development. I just dont understand why people cant understand this. THis is why I paint all WHites with the same conservative brush. ITs really not rocket science and if one cant understand this then the logical conclusion is that one is bias and rascist. You cant merit selection now when one race has received superior opportunity and training. What makes the prolem bigger is that its the same race that decides on who gets to play, who get trained, etc etc. Judge, jury and executioner!
26 Jul 2007, 15:26 pm
Kwagga 139,
Its not only about selecting the right guy. You know being a sports star is a very special position to be in. The pressures are untold unless you have been one. Mentoring, life skills, guidance are huge elements of how a player ultimately turns out. Look at Heyneke Meyers success at the Bulls to see how important this aspect is. The problem is the Black okes are there alone. They have no support, no guidance, no mentoring and at times lke nobody actually gives a fuq. Look what confidence did to someone like Gaffie. Instilling self belief and the mental side of the game is so important. People shouldn’t look at Sephaka and Eddies failures in isolation. What are the factors around these players that led to them falling off the wagon as it were. People just refuse to challenge themselves and their thinking when it comes to race. ITs so much easier to say no Black okes are lazy, they want something for nothing etc etc. Verwoed’s legacy is stronger than ever bru!
26 Jul 2007, 15:31 pm
why are there no black locks?
26 Jul 2007, 15:31 pm
odogg,
you at it again i see – venting your racist spleen at white-skinned south africans because olivier got picked ahead of julies or murray!
if you take the time to read the threads, 95% the white-skinned bloggers also think that olivier shouldn’t have made it. so why get so carried away and emotional.
cool it – you get too hot headed sometimes. when you are cool, you post some very interesting and insightful comments, like the one a month or two back about african cultures and customs which was very informative to us folks.
26 Jul 2007, 15:33 pm
148,
you tell me. I know a few okes that played lock at 1st team level but hey, I guess higher up with selectors, its either wing or nothing.
26 Jul 2007, 15:34 pm
Piet Im only going down on Sat morning. It will be a blast as always.
26 Jul 2007, 15:36 pm
we need to get some of those NBA dudes to help out in the engine room.. as the say white men cant jump and yet there are still no black locks! weird! you might have a point odogg!..
Love to test out some masai mara in the line out to!
26 Jul 2007, 15:36 pm
odogg,
You shouldn’t tar everyone with the same brush though, should you?
I mean George Bush is white but i wouldn’t want to be compared to him unless someone was to tell me that i’m nothing like him!
If you are black (which i am assuming to be the case), you wouldn’t be too thankful if i started comparing you to Robert Mugabe, purely on the basis that you share the same colour of skin, would you?
I agree with you that there needs to be more investment in the black community, that there need to be more black coaches. But I would also say that those coaches have a duty to promote fairness and equality for all, and shouldn’t be allowed to discriminate against those who were favoured before. It wasn’t the players fault that they were picked on the basis of their skin colour, was it?
This will be a slow process, but if done correctly, will be a success. You can’t change 300 years overnight. SA is 15 years into a new era, and so far i am hopeful that they will make a success of things.
But for it to truly happen, people will need to let go of what happened in the past and embrace the future. Being constantly reminded of what your forefathers did is one of life’s most difficult legacies. You can forever be apologetic and profoundly sorry, but there has to come a point where you just have to be allowed to move on.
As examples:
The German youth of today were not responsible for the holocaust, and they shouldn’t be forced to wear the shame that their ancestors brought upon them.
British youth of today were not responsible for slavery, and they shouldn’t be forced to wear the shame that their ancestors brought upon them.
I will say one last thing: when i was in SA last time out, i encountered a number of guys who were wearing shirts with De La Rey quotes on them. They were quite hostile to me as soon as they learned i was British, even though i was with a group of South Africans.
They were bitter about what went on in the Boer wars, something that happened over 100 years ago. I suggested that they should let go of their bitterness of something that they weren’t involved in, for if it was good enough for them to carry a chip on their shoulder, they couldn’t expect the black population of SA to give them a fair chance for a good few years. They went quite quiet after that.
26 Jul 2007, 15:36 pm
148
There are.
26 Jul 2007, 15:37 pm
Charo, before you point that righteous finger at me, I ask you, do you believe that Black players recieve equal development and playing opportunities as White players. If no, have you ever said anything. The greatest evil in the world is when good people see wrong and do/say nothing about it. Think about it. We have no option but to come with a far left position because the centre is quiet whilst the right has its way.
26 Jul 2007, 15:43 pm
well would that mean The SA goverments quiet stance on Zimbabwe would make them the greatest evil in the world!
26 Jul 2007, 15:44 pm
I see a guy like john mametsa, who might never play springbok rugby, as a success story. Reaching that height is already an achievement and he played under Heinecke. Why guys fall of the wagon is an open question. Drunk, lazy, lack of commitment take your pick.
I have said this before and will say it again. We have got more than enough talented black and coulored players to select a Bok team on merit. I know the word irratates the **** out of you odogg. Feel free to differ but that is my opinion.
26 Jul 2007, 15:45 pm
1. Quintin Davids… Actaully he is not ethnic black he is coloured! dam everything is so confusing these days!! Almost!
26 Jul 2007, 15:46 pm
Its simple.. if people get handed stuff on a plate they take it for granted…
26 Jul 2007, 15:50 pm
#157 directed at #147
26 Jul 2007, 15:52 pm
153,
I oviously dont feel that way about all my White compatriots. Some of my most trusted drinking buddies are White. It just infuriates me when White people refuse to be critical of their own. Do you know how much we rip the ANC and our PResident. We are absolutley critical and we challenge our leaders. Look at the recent cosatu strike. WHite people, good White people that is dont seem to have a voice when there are blatant injustices and wrongs being dealt to Blacks by their own. Our king KEO with such an amazing media reach will not utter **** for the plight of Black Rugby players. What conclusion do we draw. That he is a coward for not taking on the system or maybe that he supports it and harbours his own prejudices.
26 Jul 2007, 15:53 pm
odogg,
you are being sanctimonious, not me my mate. why is it that you choose to conveniently ignore the calls for better facilities for black players from white-skinned bloggers then call white-skinned south african “generally” racist. you are an emotional hothead and you and your like piss me off when you are in this mood.
oh, and before i forget, it would be wonderful for the govt to enforce national representation based on demographics for all sports (note – olympics)and then get all defensive when the world condemns it.
26 Jul 2007, 15:54 pm
Nog altyd?
26 Jul 2007, 15:56 pm
While I feel a slightly more moderate approach to the debate might do odogg and azza’s crusade a world of good, I can’t help but agree with their sentiment. White coaches don’t seem to have an awful of of faith in black players and don’t afford them the same leniancy when they hit a bad patch as they do for white players. It doesn’t surprise me at all that more black youngsters lose heart than their white counterparts.
And all these comments about the dangers of “rushing” blacks into positions, and how it’s a “long-term process” is simply justifying all the blah-blah wheelspin delay tactics that have prevented rugby from moving on in terms of representation since 1992.
15 years should have been ample time to make a significant difference.
26 Jul 2007, 16:03 pm
I have met a couple but none will ever be blessed enough to play Bok rugby or even provincial rugby.
The reason being they are the wrong color and their names are not right.
Go to some of the tertiary institutions you will find lots of them.
26 Jul 2007, 16:04 pm
165 is directed @ 158 & 159
26 Jul 2007, 16:05 pm
Couldn’t agree with you more Odogg. There is an abundance of talent where black ( both ethnic and coloured ) rugby players are concerned. admittedly there are those who fall of the rails who have no-one but themselves to blame. However there are plenty black players who are just not afforded the same opportunities as their white counterparts – that is a fact. If you can’t see that then you must be living in a different planet. There are those minority white South africans who of the strong belief that they need to protect their beloved sport of rugby from outside influence claiming all rights to the sport to themselves. Failing to realise what a national treasure this belovd sport is for ALL South Africans!!
26 Jul 2007, 16:08 pm
Facilities, shmatilities……………we want opportunity. Training. Development. We want to see Black players at the highest level. White coaches are not affording these opportunities. case in point, Wayne Julies and Wynaand Olivier. You guys advocate for a soft solution to appease. Build grounds and they will be happy. No we will be happy when Black players have provincial contracts and can make a living from RUgby. We will be happy when Black players get S14 contracts and make a tidy some. We will be happy when Black players get Springbok contracts and go to the World Cup and become millionares. Stop this condescending thing Charo of thinking we just build the Blacks a few grounds so they can run around and throw the Rugby ball and happeee. Rugby is huge and we are talking a transformation of the game on many spheres and levels. Your “build the grounds” theme is a thinly veiled protectionist agenda to ensure the resources, opportunities and economic spoils remain for White people
26 Jul 2007, 16:10 pm
and the sad truth is that in 4 years time we will be having this very same debate. personally it is unacceptable with what hoskins has been saying. 4 years ago the then head honcho uttered the same nonsense and nothing changed. odogg – keo bemoaned this fact that the union pres. received a slap on the wrist and still did nothing so your critism is a bit unfair. i am dead against enforced quotas at international level and by this include the s14 but it would be a good thing at cc level. we simply have to tap into the vast undiscovered talent that is out there. the bottom line more supporters means more money for saru which will allow them to spend more money on development etc. odogg – you do speak alot more sense when you’re not trying to imitate fidel.
26 Jul 2007, 16:12 pm
164,
I feel to strongly about the suject matter to be moderate. Call it a bloggers licence.
26 Jul 2007, 16:14 pm
Martin,
Its the revolutionary in me. I missed chucks of the struggle so I feel like this is my last chance. hahahahahaha!
26 Jul 2007, 16:17 pm
Chunks!!
26 Jul 2007, 16:24 pm
odogg,
regardless of what you say, facilities are almost non-existent in most parts of rural ec where the game is strong. so how will aspiring young black kids reach the level of s14 or bok contracts if they play on makeshift veld. i have seen photos of games in those areas, played and watched with great enthusiasm, but the basics like proper white lines, corner flags etc almost non-existent.
by the way, i prefer adie jacobs over olivier, murray or julies.
26 Jul 2007, 16:27 pm
what do you think of Tonderi Chavanga?
26 Jul 2007, 16:28 pm
Jacobs is good.. but i have a feeling that Murry will be better!
26 Jul 2007, 16:29 pm
dawn is bound to make a lewd comment about my last paragraph in #173
26 Jul 2007, 16:33 pm
adi jacobs has better hands, vision and acceleration than olivier or julies. waylon is a good one for the future but he is a 13 whereas i think adi is a natural 12
26 Jul 2007, 16:34 pm
odogg,
As kakpraat ‘n kolletjie was, was jou naam Spottie, die f@kkennnnnnn hond.
Militante stuk weggooi-kak-en-hare!!
26 Jul 2007, 16:35 pm
what annoys me more than anything else… it actually makes my blood boil .. its the fact that when a shite white play is selected ahead of other better players… he is called lucky and no issues… when its a black player on the same conditions… oh hell no its qoatas… our rugby is going down the drain blah blah blah… white dudes!… after all you ‘ve done to us?… and by the way you are still sitting comfortable in your surburbs… every dog has its day boys… our day will come…
26 Jul 2007, 16:36 pm
177 agreed..
26 Jul 2007, 16:39 pm
lazeybonez,
are you really robert mugabe?
26 Jul 2007, 16:40 pm
lazeybones!! was blacks who invented quotas!! its just our way of shoving the racist, dum idea back down your throats.. By introducing quota players you left yourselves wide open to those types of attcks.. As long as there are things like quotas, BE, AA, etc it will be very hard for any black player to succeed.. Your doing not ours!
26 Jul 2007, 16:43 pm
DD
Quotas were SARFUs idea to get the government off their back. Get your facts straight.
26 Jul 2007, 16:44 pm
Skunk.. please!!
26 Jul 2007, 16:47 pm
this thread has been hijacked by sacp and ancyl – i’m out – to read something more stimulating and mature.
26 Jul 2007, 16:49 pm
Charo… i aint no Bob son… actually was born in the EC if you care to know… where the likes of Makaya, Bobo, Zondeki, Steve Biko etc etc originated… i’m just giving you a perspective..
Durban Docks # 182… how else can we can get black people intergrated in the mainstream south african way of economic, social activity?… you had your chance you abused it immensely… and those who could jumped the ship to perth when they had a chance… you ‘ll never do it naturally history shows that… how else can it be done?
26 Jul 2007, 16:58 pm
DD
Thats one of the biggest problems with this forum. Most people here do not bother to check their facts.
184 does not make you smart or me dumb, It simply shows misinformation. And since that is the case lets rather leave it at that.
Charo
You think that corner poles are what makes a person a good player. Hog wash. there good players playing now who will never be seen playing because of how people like you and DD think.
Building a rugby field is good but giving equal opportunities is better.
26 Jul 2007, 16:59 pm
178#
GBS
Hello
Ek sukkel nog steeds om AB deur te gee aan die manne, heel dag al!
Miskien as middernag slaan binne 5 minute, sal dinge verander.
Daai ‘ou’ een met wie jy hier praat, sal nie verander nie.
Ek gaat hom maar los.
26 Jul 2007, 16:59 pm
lazeybonez,
That’s a lazy stereotype my man. There are plenty of non-whites who are “jumping ship” too now that they are skilled. Call it market forces.
Of course there were some whites who didn’t want to stick around when white rule ended. But there are plenty who did stick around and who want to actively contribute to South African society.
Please lose the chip. It ruins your look.
26 Jul 2007, 17:00 pm
Um.. What History??? never studied that one? infact we as a country are rewriting the history books as we go! never has so much control by a goverment been handed over with so little fighting!
things take time and effort..
26 Jul 2007, 17:00 pm
179# lazeybones
Jy praat k#k man.
26 Jul 2007, 17:02 pm
charo #185
Ja nee wat, hulle moet maar aanneuk.
26 Jul 2007, 17:04 pm
skunk until you acknowledge that there is a serious flaw in the way you think im wasting my time to..
Do you know how many great talented white players have not made it??
Do you get my point??
26 Jul 2007, 17:07 pm
Skunk,
I’ve received no mail yet…… were you just all talk & no action?
26 Jul 2007, 17:12 pm
GBS
Wanneer vlieg jy, more?
Ek hoop jy en skunk kry mekaar…alleen.
Dat julle kan gesels.
As dit dan nie werk nie, dan gaan ons steeds voort.
26 Jul 2007, 17:15 pm
GBS
There was no email address on there. there was only a phone number.
PS. If I was all talk a lot more people in this blog would know me.
26 Jul 2007, 17:15 pm
Pieta,
Ons vlieg more, moet reeds teen 14:30 op Lughawe wees……. ons kry die res van die groep daar en vlieg bietjie later na Deben.
Ek stem!
26 Jul 2007, 17:19 pm
GBS,
Whats with the Afrikaans gents. Lets keep it Anglo.
26 Jul 2007, 17:21 pm
Skunk,
You just missed the mail addie but here goes:
legal@
The rest is the same as the website addie after the www.
26 Jul 2007, 17:23 pm
odogg,
Why should we not talk Afrikaans……. so we can listen to your militant ****?
Gaan speel man……suka wena!!
26 Jul 2007, 17:24 pm
GBS
Sorry I just went back there. I must be getting dumber by the day. I sent you a massage.
26 Jul 2007, 17:29 pm
skunk
So you guys are still on then?
Good.
Face to face is better than here.
Let’s do the business.
26 Jul 2007, 17:29 pm
Skunk,
If your name starts with an X…….. I replied via mail……. phone me!
26 Jul 2007, 17:33 pm
201 – Sent him a massage? You and GBS are really getting to know each other well.
26 Jul 2007, 17:36 pm
mirrag almal. Hoe lyk dinge?
26 Jul 2007, 17:39 pm
hahaha Katman
beat me to it
26 Jul 2007, 17:40 pm
Pietman,
What’s up with GBS and skunk? What are those okes up to?
26 Jul 2007, 17:43 pm
GBS is trying to figure out how to send Skunk a hug as an attachment.
26 Jul 2007, 17:46 pm
207# Loerie Awards, Margate, and some serious rugby going down…!
All for a good cause.
Patience boys, you will have full report by Monday.
26 Jul 2007, 17:46 pm
wateva u dumb idiot! politicians shoul piss off and leave sa rugby.. we need to reamain as the boks and the best playas will play for F%%KS sake!
26 Jul 2007, 17:55 pm
GBS
I’ve just replied to your mail. I will call you tomorrow.
26 Jul 2007, 17:57 pm
Katman
You might also be interested in my idea.
26 Jul 2007, 17:57 pm
OK then boys, now that everyone is all friendly, I will bow out and take the missus to dinner.
See you okes around.
And don’t forget, all the roads lead to Bethlehem this weekend.
That is in the OFS.
In the good old R of SA.
The place to be.
26 Jul 2007, 17:59 pm
cheers Piet
see you around
26 Jul 2007, 18:03 pm
Cheers Piet!
26 Jul 2007, 18:11 pm
skunk, tell me about it at katman1973@gmail.com
26 Jul 2007, 22:12 pm
Does Stofile even know what the public think….
We are a big group of blacks. Zulu’s, Xhosa’s, Sotho’s, coloureds….etc and we are not of the same opinion as Stofile…
White people support Bafana with 1 white goalie?!?
Wake up man….blacks are not the sorry *** victims as the perception Stofile and likes are creating out there…
If the blacks that are there don’t cut it…they should not play…as long as the same goes for the white players….I’m all for it…
And all the best for the Springboks….
26 Jul 2007, 22:25 pm
aaah, skunk, odogg et al,
now i get it at last. so it’s not about facilities or anything else groundroots. its all about money for the brothers – i.e. s14 or bok contacts.
seems like the “africa disease” has reached sa earlier than expected.
what’s “africa disease” do i hear you say?
well, simply, it’s what happens to african countries after they gain indepenence – simply they blame all their woes on their former colonial masters instead of focusssing inwards at the actual problems like fraud, lack of service delivery, personal bank accounts etc.
thanks anyway for clearing things up!
26 Jul 2007, 22:35 pm
218 – charo it seems you are right. It is a pitty that we choose to follow Africa’s example instead of Singapore. For me the saddest thing is the potential we have in SA, but with this attitude will we never get anywhere.
26 Jul 2007, 22:42 pm
I’ll tell you where the attitude is lacking, its in the great divide, I see all of you slating each other from far flung positions of huge division, not even a hint at any reconciliation, just you blaming them and them blaming you, so you really reckon you have some humanity in you? At all? I’m searching to try and find some vestige of it, just a wee trace of some sincere human understanding and compassion and insight. Its because there is still a mountain you have to climb just to gain a small iota of the maturity you profess to possess, unfortunately your lack of insight out strips your vision, and your dogma is steeped in racial prejudice. Pity, great big pity.
26 Jul 2007, 22:49 pm
220 – Skopskiet howzit
Look I am not some rightwinger that emigrated and are then dikbek over the whole situation.
We both want the same for SA, and SA rugby – to be sucsess. We just differ about the way it should be done.
26 Jul 2007, 22:53 pm
skopskiet,
very good point man but i am afraid you speak from a point of inexperience and possibility naivety.
i have lived or worked in probably 75% of sub-saharan africa and the culture is not that different from that shown by odogg and his minions.
i am happy that you believe that all can be overcome here in sa between whites and blacks but it will never be that way – sorry to say.
mbeki has set the tone – “i am an african” and the acceptable level of service delivery – police, hospitals, courts, schooling has followed suite.
fortunately, i am the md of a british shipping company here and both my wife and i have uk passports so we will, regretably, leave when the likes of odogg get out of hand.
very regretably, since this is a beautiful country otherwise.
26 Jul 2007, 22:54 pm
Hello LondonBul, I’m not wanting to judge you or anyone here, I am just commenting on what I see, and what I see is left and right, black and white severe marginalization not getting any nearer to one another in 15 years of participation, if anything I see you all drifting further apart.
26 Jul 2007, 22:57 pm
You say you are African, which African will gladly leave his mother country in search of greener pastures if he sees that it is economically beneficial to immigrate rather than build the nation he so loves?
26 Jul 2007, 23:00 pm
223 – skopskiet, we have a difficult situation in SA. I just think this government has got its priorities wrong. I think the main reason for the divide is not a more white Bok team, but the economic differences. Once you sort that out, a lot of other issues will be sorted. When last did you hear about an economically sucessfull country having these issues?
I think the politicians are doing a **** job in governing the country, a lot of blacks are still piss poor. Now they are taking the heat of them by focusing attention on the demographics of the Springboks. I bit like Mugabe in fact.
26 Jul 2007, 23:01 pm
#224 I’ll be leaving soon too; purely for monetary reasons.
26 Jul 2007, 23:07 pm
Rugby is really a minor issue, believe me the bulk of our population couldn’t give two hoots who is in the springbok team, if you had to ask them who are the springboks the majority of them wouldn’t even know wtf you talking about, the next loaf of bread on their table is of far more valuable importance than how many whites/blacks are representative in the springbok team. We make it far more an issue than most of the population here.
26 Jul 2007, 23:10 pm
skopskiet,
it is difficult to invest time and capital to a continent that has failed in every way.
i know sa is currently different and there is much that is positive but when i read posts like that of odogg and azza, i feel a sense of hopelessness for the white man here – much like the sense that eventually this dark continent will revert back to its primitive rooots.
26 Jul 2007, 23:12 pm
227 – Exactly
The crime is horendous, the economy can do much, much beter and they harp on about this. And I really don’t understand why the Springboks are the only team in the world that have to do “nation buiilding”. Isn’t that the politicians job?
26 Jul 2007, 23:14 pm
Each man to his own, some will seek their fortunes abroad others will stay and fight the good fight, neither is right or wrong, it is only a matter of perception and what holds sway or value to our individual needs and aspirations, nothing, not identity, aspiration, hopes, dreams are so emphatically vital to our ultimate ambition that it is a case of right or wrong, no needs are such that they are cast in stone, our desires and needs alter from one day, year, lifetime to the next, so we are but swallows in search of that elusive endless summer.
26 Jul 2007, 23:16 pm
perhaps if sabc made more of a fuss about losing the rugby broadcast versus the huge hoohaa about the soccer issue then i would be more accommodating about the perceived lack of interest of rugby amongst black s africans.
but it is all bullshit – odagg and his mates blaming the whites for lack of opportunity rather than looking inward at the anc govt.
26 Jul 2007, 23:20 pm
Charo I hear a deep routed sense of insecurity coming from you, a strong identification of the us and them syndrome that is dividing man from man and which has been the case through aeon’s of time, nothing is new here, we come we pillage we take we run and so the cycle continues from day to day life to life, generation to generation, if ever there will be reasonable tolerance and compatibility between races, nations, societies, religions, it is still a far flung dream to the majority of all humanity, whether it be in Africa, Asia, Europe or America, the injustices and divisions between men will continue to blight the humanity some of us profess to hold dear.
26 Jul 2007, 23:26 pm
It is still black and white to you, it is such a narrow short sighted perception this huge monster mountain you have created of superiority and inferiority between and amongst races, it is one huge lack that we have that we see and judge all men by the pigmentation of their skin, or rather fail to see that men are men period, with exactly the same needs desires hopes ambitions and dreams, only the cycles of so called civilizations turn in different spheres so it is always one nation or race dominating another until that wheel turns full circle and then the dominating become the dominated, simply nature and destiny balancing out the injustices, or have you not eyes to see it?
26 Jul 2007, 23:37 pm
Diddy
How can you have respect for someone that is only ever part of the problem, but never part of the solution.
Stofile has been been given the authority and power to do something about it (for a long time now) but does not have the brains to be able to figure out a solution, because he is only in that position because of cronyism. They have butted their head to a pulp against a brick wall by insisting on transformation on the top down, but the practical reality is that if teh Bok coach only has five black players to choose from, then he can’t select ten. If a ball is blue, then it does not change colour because you have legislated that it is red! And that is what these power drunk morons don’t get. Their role is to nurture and vitalise the system to grow it in the way they want it grown, not just criticise and condemn. But they are obviously not smart enough to know how to do this.
26 Jul 2007, 23:39 pm
skopskiet,
i have tortured out 2 posts that now have failed to pitch – no more.
i am afraid the issue is not skin colour as you say above – i wish it was as simple as that. no, it is a culture thing and africans are way behind the europeans, chinese, indians and the rest. probably about 300 years behind. this explains the current problem of understanding each other.
26 Jul 2007, 23:42 pm
goodnight to those bloggers still left here.
chat again in the morning.
27 Jul 2007, 02:33 am
Some excellent posts here, some of you boys are really good at this politico-sport business.
Now here is my question:
Which one of you, if you were a Bill Gates or a Johan Rupert, let’s say, would have appointed Mr Makhenkesi Stofile as your CEO and his brother as your General Manager, with Mr Butane Komphela as Head of Production…….and go to bed at night peacefully with the confidence that your business was in good hands?
If you can answer ‘Yes, me, I would do so without any reservation’, then you shouldn’t be in business.
Rather go teach history or social sciences or something instead, or go work for some or other government subsidised organisation with endless financial resources (taxes, preferably).
LondonBul summed it up very neatly, you cannot use one sport to change all the wrongs in a society.
And read the penultimate sentence of Sjambok’s post, it is all there, what the role of politicians in sport should be.
How can anybody not agree with that statement, anyone of sound mind that is?
Charo said it time and time again, you cannot divorce sport from culture, or conversely, enforce sport upon a culture.
If that had been the case, than all the basketball players in the USA would have been white and all the ice hockey players in Canada would have been Inuit (Eskimo)!
27 Jul 2007, 05:29 am
Pietman
Jy en my mede ex parkie GBS is mos computer boffins. Ek gaan vir ‘n maand in die kruger wildtuin rond swerf. Hoe gaan mens te werk om internet daar te gebruik?
27 Jul 2007, 05:35 am
petoors
Hello
Ek weet van rekenaars maar weinig, ken net van internet.
Maar GBS is die man, hy het grade en alles in die IT bedryf.
Jy kan hom kry by legaleasy@xsinetdotcodotza, hy sal jou vinnig regsien,
Maar hy gaan vandag Margate toe.
Sy adres is telefoonnr ook op sarsu site.
Geniet die wildtuin.
27 Jul 2007, 05:38 am
Petoors
Ek het hom laat weet jy soek hom.
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