TMO tortures Cheetahs
10 Mar 2008
Referees need to be more consistent when referring try-scoring decisions to the TMO.
Australian referee Paul Marks did the Cheetahs a disservice on Saturday when he asked the TMO if he could provide a reason why a try had not been scored by Chiefs scrumhalf Brendon Leonard. Television replays were inconclusive, so the TMO’s verdict was that he could not see the ball. Marks then bizarrely awarded the try.
That score came at a critical stage of the game. The Cheetahs were ahead 17-0 just after half-time and it gave the rattled Chiefs a much needed boost.
Later in the match, the Chiefs again drove their way over the line and claimed a try. Again, the referee couldn’t see the ball being grounded, yet this time he asked the TMO a different question. “Can you tell me if a try has been scored,” said Marks. After several replays, the TMO again said he couldn’t see the ball being grounded, and Marks awarded a 5m scrum.
Referees are human and make mistakes, but there is no excuse for the above inconsistency. By changing his question in the second incident, Mark’s was effectively admitting he’d screwed up in the first.
On a related topic, another controversial episode in the build-up to the Chiefs’ second try showed why the TMO should play a greater role in rugby. Sitiveni Sivivatu floated a forward pass that was missed by the referee, and the winger regained possession to make it 17-12.
Why couldn’t the referee have provisionally awarded the try, and then asked the TMO if the pass was legitimate? After a short break, “No try” could have been flashed on the stadium TV screen and the Cheetahs would have had a scrum nearly the halfway line.
Rugby is a professional sport and can no longer allow human error (of referees) to determine the result of matches. Fortunately, the IRB is aware of this problem and plans to trial a referral system that will allow coaches to challenge on-field decisions. For coaches like Naka Drotske, it can’t come soon enough.
By Simon Borchardt
69 Comments
10 Mar 2008, 11:02 am
Not since John Smit asked the ref whether he could talk to his players and the Irish went and scored that try has a team been so blatantly robbed as the Cheetahs were the other day…
10 Mar 2008, 11:03 am
The ref was planning to award the try come hell or high water and he wasted everyone’s time by referring.
Stupid pratt
That said the Cheetahs should still have won it, but they decided to protect their lead instead of playing atting rugby
10 Mar 2008, 11:04 am
Fortunately, the IRB is aware of this problem and plans to trial a referral system that will allow coaches to challenge on-field decisions. For coaches like Naka Drotske, it can’t come soon enough.
Dont hold your breath of this happening in the next decade.
10 Mar 2008, 11:06 am
At last I agree with Simon.
It was an abomination.
10 Mar 2008, 11:07 am
And point is, two mistakes were made to which is now given as reasons for the Cheetahs loss.
I feel sorry for them losing, but more importantly, they looked unfit and started missing crucial first time tackles in the last 20 minutes, and why in Mother Teresa’s name Naka brought Tewis on is beyond me.
IN that last 20 the Cheetahs made about 15 mistakes, because of fitness and specifically Tewis, and that is the reason they lost.
Blaming 2 incidents and ignoring 15 is missing the point on why they lost.
10 Mar 2008, 11:08 am
That Brussouw lad is going to play some big rugby though – I reckon he will become a superstar.
With players like him and Keegan we are in good stead.
10 Mar 2008, 11:09 am
PA
Don’t discount the effect two **** decisions will have on a team who were winning after the first half.
10 Mar 2008, 11:10 am
Didn’t see see the game, but that is the second time a team from SA has been screwed in the last 2 weeks. The first was when the Force scored from a forward pass and the Lions try legitimate try was disallowed. And now the Cheetahs.
I know I am biased toward SA teams, and the Lions specifically. To the supporters in NZ and Aus, do you also feel as annoyed at poor ref decisions that actually cost your teams the game?
10 Mar 2008, 11:14 am
lion4,
Of course, where you not here during the World Cup and specifically after ‘THAT’ forward pass and Wayne Barnes???
Dawn,
If you lose faith in your systems or game-plan on a field because of one or two bad decisions that went against you then professional rugby is not for you.
It has an effect obviously, but so does a dropped ball, a stupid kick directly into touch – all of those things affect momentum, to blame it shows a lack of professionalism.
There are many reason the Cheetahs lost, 2 of which where bad decisions, and arguably 25 of which were poor play.
2 against 25?
Looking for excuses blinds coaches, players and supporters to the real problems we have, or what we need to address to avoid the same happening again.
10 Mar 2008, 11:19 am
I vote for citing TMO’s.
10 Mar 2008, 11:30 am
PA, I think you are mouthing off for the sake of doing so.
It was obvious even to non rugby supporters and to kiwi fans (like myself) that the Cheetahs played better rugby and deserved to win. They lost purely because of two very poor decisions and NO other reason.
Maybe you should give them a break. Everyone in NZ knows that it was more than luck that helped the Cheetahs lose.
10 Mar 2008, 11:31 am
Puff #1 Linston Manuels. Need I say more?
10 Mar 2008, 11:37 am
Why is it bizarre he scored the try. The ref said to the TMO is there a reason I SHOULDNT award the try, the TMO was unsighted, then the benefit should go to the attacking side. I’m not an Australian supporter, but dont miss the point of TMO’s. the refs comment “has a try been scored” in the second incident, was the correct question for a 5m scrum if the TMO, was also unsighted. The ref acted correctly in asking the questions that he did, besides the fact that he is a doos.
10 Mar 2008, 11:43 am
Punish them with a red card aswell , than you will see them getting there act together.
10 Mar 2008, 11:44 am
What the heck has Linston Manuels got to do with anything.
10 Mar 2008, 11:53 am
Even more blatant was the linesman ruling that the FS had passed the ball back into the 22. The diretc kick out lead to the lineout being held in the 22. This was rubbish as it was shown that the pass was well within the 22.
This non release of pressure also had a massive effect on the FS players & their lack of ability to defend.
10 Mar 2008, 11:55 am
Ag shame,poor cheetahs,little whining girls. stop crying and play rugby you sore losers. Since the ELVs were introduced everyone is crying like little grils instead of taking a loss like a man.
Tinkerbells, go and play soccer and roll around the field like girls to get cards.
10 Mar 2008, 11:59 am
From rugby heaven:
“If the Cheetahs couldn’t knock over the Chiefs playing as badly as they did last Saturday night in Hamilton, what hope have they got in Christchurch? ”
Nooooonnne I`d say.
10 Mar 2008, 12:00 pm
Blueblood,
No one is whining about the ELV’s, we are unhappy with ****** referee decisions, just like you were when Manuels cheated you out of a try (Akona).
The same like when the Lions were not given the try when Jano was away.
10 Mar 2008, 12:02 pm
I am surprise that most blogger`s on here picked the Chiefs for a win…and then blame the ref for the Cheetah loss.
10 Mar 2008, 12:03 pm
We are back to the same question.
When are they going to make refs accountable to somebody other than their own closed organisation?
I do not believe in attacking refs, but what we have seen in 4 weeks of S14 has been ridiculous!!
The way I see it, it is not the rules or anything else that will spoil the S14 it is the poor standard of reffing!!
10 Mar 2008, 12:07 pm
i dont think marks got it wrong.
in my opinion marks needed a verification if anything happened what he coudnt see before awarding the try
even though the tmo could not see the grounding marks apparently was happy that the try was on.
then why the question
as aforementioned just for anything that may have happened which he did not see
10 Mar 2008, 12:07 pm
How about that touch judge call in the Stormers game when Jantjes did a clearance kick deep inside his 22? When it was clear on the replay that the ruck was inside the 22?
There were a few dodgy decisions/calls in that match…I must say, Luke Watson was hard done by some of those decisions, but man, I like having him back in on the side of the scrum.
It’s amazing how the Aussie commentators were rating him as “one of the best” in South Africa, and meanwhile here almost no one north of the Hex River Mountains rate him.
10 Mar 2008, 12:09 pm
The Cheetahs lead the Chiefs 17-0 before inexplicably clocking off prematurely.
Thats what they should address as the problem and not feel sorry for themselves.
10 Mar 2008, 12:10 pm
Blueblood
Shut the **** up.
10 Mar 2008, 12:11 pm
All the refs have been extremely variable – except for Jonker who’s been appalling all year. His two shocking tries and one yellow card cost the Highlanders the Reds match in round 1. The Blues got butchered against the Sharks in the w/e. I can’t see any way around it beyond playing the ref out of the game by putting in a complete 80 mins.
10 Mar 2008, 12:11 pm
Luke is a good player, but not one of the top 6 in the country.
1)Schalk
2)Pierre Spies
3)Juan smith
4)Wikus van Heerden
5)Ernest Joubert
6)Keegan, Kankowski(spelling),Vermeulen, Hilton, P3
10 Mar 2008, 12:12 pm
The Cheetahs should have won the game not worry about TMO decisions! If they were the better team then they should have won! ALA AB in WC! Sharks in the final! If you are a good team then you should win your games! If the other team scores a try then you go back and score! Simple!
10 Mar 2008, 12:13 pm
Luke Watson is a very very good player and fooook those who don`t want to give him credit.
10 Mar 2008, 12:14 pm
26 In the second half the Sharks were butchered too! Whats your point? The blues were playing dirty on the deck and so were the Sharks!!!
10 Mar 2008, 12:15 pm
Fluke is a good player! But there are better!
10 Mar 2008, 12:18 pm
Is Pierre-hope-to-be-a-star-one-day-spies playing at 6 nowadays?
10 Mar 2008, 12:18 pm
Luke is good, and I will give credit, but not the best. Anyway, enough on Luke
Great weekend for certain players, and was long overdue, Schalk Brits had an absolute blinder, so did Keegan Daniel, Duane Vermeulen, Derrick Hougaard and Jano Vermaak, and yes, Luke as well
10 Mar 2008, 12:19 pm
#21 I agree Tighthead. Refs seem to be a law unto themselves, and heaven help a player or coach who has the audacity to critisize a ref after they have had a bad showing.What we have seen this season so far is really bad reffing, with nothing being done about it.
Rugby is a professional game, yet a lot of refs seem to be amateurs, and this can cost teams. Results effect a team’s morale, and a close win could boost a team the same way, a close could cost the same much needed confidence.
10 Mar 2008, 12:20 pm
Marius Jonker, reffing the Highlanders/Reds game, asked EXACTLY the same question to the TMO — “Can you give me any reason why I should NOT award the try?” The wording clearly suggests that the ref thinks it WAS a try and that he will award it unless the TMO can provide clear evidence that it wasn’t one. The usual refereeing default is that unless you are absolutely SURE of any decision, you should NOT make the call. The whole point of having a TMO is to clear up the unawarded uncertainty, and not to confirm a pre-decided certainty.
10 Mar 2008, 12:21 pm
The Blues played very K@K in the firts half and deserved to lose.
Foooken cost me a possible 7/7.
10 Mar 2008, 12:23 pm
I forgot about JW Jonker! A great up and coming youngster. Watch out Jaque Fourie!
10 Mar 2008, 12:27 pm
Tackler, no nasty words for us Saffas? Are you sick?
10 Mar 2008, 12:28 pm
1 – The Lions were robbed even more blatantly last week when the ref called them back after Vermaak had broken through to score (and not before, as some were suggesting here) only to award a scrum TO THE LIONS. I mean, WTF? Decisions don’t come worse than this.
10 Mar 2008, 12:29 pm
tackler you have it all correct except your last sentence, unawarded uncertainty.confirm predecided certainty.
10 Mar 2008, 12:30 pm
Howzit Tackler you sexy beast.
10 Mar 2008, 12:33 pm
When are we getting an England thread?
I`d like to hear what Big Hit has to say.
I hear the rednecks are now calling for Jonny’s head.
10 Mar 2008, 12:34 pm
Katman, see my comment at 19. We were robbed of the try, and as you point out, to get called back for a Force knock on? No more advantage?
Anyway, if we were good enough, we should’ve been able to at the very least milk a penalty!
I am so gatvol for losing! Year after year, and Loffie can’t blame “the young and inexperienced” guys anymore, is this not their 3rd season together?
10 Mar 2008, 12:36 pm
Katman,
You make me think of Big Hit.Everything must go your way before you can win a game.
Sorry its just not going to happen very often in this unfair world.
10 Mar 2008, 12:44 pm
Mistakes by refs should be regarded as a normal thing in rugby thats the only way to deal with it.
Blaming the ref is like blaming bad luck.
10 Mar 2008, 12:47 pm
I believe that referees should be more accountable. For a start lets have a new match stastic ” 50-50 decisions”
The red card yellow card rulings are also too amateurish. In a physical game such as rugby referees should strive not to penalise the team or the spectators. These issues can be dealt with far more accurately and efficiently after the match. In most cases a penalty would suffice!
10 Mar 2008, 12:48 pm
bok team of the week,
janjes
tonderai
jaco pretorius
meyer bosman
?
hougaard
jano vermaak
brussow
joe v niekers
keagan daniels
andries bekker
gerhard mostert
bj
schalk brits
heinke
10 Mar 2008, 12:49 pm
Namblack, at the very least you should watch the game before expressing opinions on what happened. Of course first prize would be if you shut the **** up altogether.
10 Mar 2008, 12:55 pm
Bad luck Cheetahs
Recon Naka should look to make a fresh start on the home leg as there is very little to save on tour now.
He should rest Duane, Bosman, Wian, Pieterse, Brussow, Daniller and play the squad for the rest of the tour.
Back home he can re-introduce the above as well as CJ and Juan, that will create a fresh feeling and antisipation to finish the campaign strongly and run into CC.
10 Mar 2008, 13:05 pm
Thought the refs were an abomination. They missed Sivivatu forward pass as well, but lets not cry over spilt milk… Cheetahs should have played better and closed the game off.
On the bright side:
JW Jonker – best game in a Cheetahs jersey
Nokwe- proved he is right for FS Game plan, and looked better than Passens.
Duanne Vermeulen – best no 8 in the tournament so far.
Brussouw – Brilliant again. Cant wait to see him up against McCaw.
Cheetahs can take a lot from this.
10 Mar 2008, 13:59 pm
#34 — check your law-book. The referee is the “sole judge of fact”. That means he is actually EXPECTED to be a “law unto himself”. The linesmen and TMO are only “advisers”, whose advice the ref may take or leave as he wishes.
10 Mar 2008, 14:07 pm
refs has really had in for our teams this season and its becoming more blatant as the weeks goes on
10 Mar 2008, 14:32 pm
Katman,
I did not say the refs blunder never happened.
All i was saying is that you ,like Big Hit, ALWAYS put the blame on something else but your team.
Try for once to find out the real reason why the lions failed to deliver for decades now.
10 Mar 2008, 14:38 pm
#23. The refs and assistants in the Stormers game were pathetic. So many errors. It was shocking.
I must say apart from the slow adoption of the ELVs by the SA teams, the low standard of refereering this year must be the disappointment of the tournament so far.
Where have all the good refs gone? Where is Welsh, Kaplan (I’ve only seen him once), the Aussies #1?
10 Mar 2008, 14:49 pm
Its just a play on words –
Marks asked the TMO –
Is there a reason I cannot award the try? The TMO, then SHOULD have said yes there is a reason. I cannot see the ball being grounded thus deciding a try had been scored is pure assumption.
Dont know what all the fing fuss is about!
10 Mar 2008, 15:00 pm
53 – You talk so much kak it’s not even worth responding to. I ALWAYS put the blame elsewhere?
I dare you to find ONE other occasion where I’ve blamed anything or anyone but the Lions for our losses. I’m the first to admit we’re below par. But this decision was so diabolical it warrants a moan.
10 Mar 2008, 15:11 pm
I am also not sure about the forward pass judge by the referee in the Force vs Crusaders match…The try under the post could have let the Force won 32-9…
10 Mar 2008, 15:12 pm
Oops…typing error.. 31-29…
10 Mar 2008, 15:27 pm
Charlie,Charlie,Charlie,
Please try and except that the saders is now very close to becoming unbeatable.
10 Mar 2008, 15:30 pm
If 55,000 people can see whether a try is scored or not from the big screen then surely the Ref should be allowed to have a look himself. Im not saying he should make his decision from what the big screen shows alone but surely he’ll have a much better idee of what the tmo is talking about.. or they could bring a portable tv onto the field so he can be his own tmo.
Also supersport should put a synchronized clock on all cameras so that if one camera angle shows grounding of the ball but another shows a foot in touch they could simply use this time to determine which happend first…
A perfect example is the almost England try in the world cup final… there the Tmo had to go back & forth & try to look through the player to see whether there was a foot in touch before the grounding. Had there been a clock in place the tmo would simply had to look at the time of the
grounding & then from the other angle the time of the foot in touch. Simple!
10 Mar 2008, 15:34 pm
Wat van daai Sivivatu dr@l se spear tackle op JW Jonker ?
Geel kaart, yeah right en Zane Kirshner kry ‘n rooie vir syne !
Ek se dit nog altyd die Aussie en NZ refs het hulle messe in of uit vir SA spanne !
10 Mar 2008, 16:45 pm
Nee, King Cheetah [61], dit is ons refs wat ons plaaslike spelers benadeel – in die hoop dat daar ‘n paar internasionale krummels na hulle kant toe kan kom.
Mark Lawrence & co is meer gevaarlik as die skelms van Doeronder.
10 Mar 2008, 17:16 pm
I said it all weekend the ref messed up on both calls and cheetahs again were very unlucky
10 Mar 2008, 21:50 pm
that inconsistency is seriously part of the conspiracy – its no secret that the aussies in general hate us.
10 Mar 2008, 22:21 pm
its always against our teams. a BIG UP YOURS 2 all da refs
10 Mar 2008, 22:47 pm
Will rugby become like gridiron where the coach will have a colored flag in his hand? The coach can at any time challenge a try by throwing the flag onto the field (within a certain cutoff time after the try was scored). The try will then be reviewed by the TMO. The coach however will only be allowed 2 or 3 of these challenges during a game.
11 Mar 2008, 02:21 am
Refs are not perfect just ask Wayne Barnes, and I guess all teams have been hard done by, but in the end at least they have a game the following weekend to retify any mistakes and get back on track….. some teams have to wait four more years in the hope a ref can become abit more consistant & fair.
11 Mar 2008, 05:03 am
to tell the truth. Most refs are dicks.
Actually, most people when put in a position of power, act like dicks.
11 Mar 2008, 05:31 am
#68 Speak for your self mate.
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