The Bok No 8 debate
13 May 2008
Who should play eighthman for South Africa this season, Ryan Kankowski or Pierre Spies?
Phenomenal and freaky would be good words to describe these two players. Kankowski, who made his Test debut against Wales last November, was probably the top South African player in the first part of 2008 and looked to be a shoo-in to start at the back of the scrum for the Boks this year. That is until Spies, who missed the World Cup after blood clots were discovered on his lungs, made a comeback to the game that exceeded all expectations.
SA Rugby magazine asks two former Bok eighthmen, Wynand Claassen and Gary Teichmann, who they would play this season.
Also in the new issue of SA Rugby magazine, on sale Wednesday:
– In the wake of a brilliant World Cup, Juan Smith remains the Springboks’ most hardened warrior at the frontline. But is it time for him to leave Bloemfontein?
– Peter de Villiers’s attacking ambition suggests that positions 10, 12 and 13 will shoulder greater responsibility in 2008. Former Springbok inside backs Joel Stransky and Hennie le Roux examine the prospective 10-12-13 axis and why it is so crucial to an expansive approach.
– Mismatched teams, poor attendance figures, declining public interest … why Super Rugby is in desperate need of an overhaul
– Marius Joubert talks about losing his place to Jaque Fourie, gaining the respect of his Clermont team-mates, how much certain sections of the South African media irritate him, the guilt of carrying a Springbok contract and not playing, being knifed in the back by Western Province and text messages to Springbok coach Peter de Villiers.
– Nick Mallett on coaching against the Boks in June, the Six Nations, and why the ELVs could destroy rugby as we know it.
– While Wales defence coach Shaun Edwards never gets emotional in front of his players, he is a caring, loyal and deeply spiritual person.
– Wales Grand-Slam-winning captain Ryan Jones has his sights set on the Springboks.
– Former Test centre Jeremy Guscott on Martin Johnson‘s appointment as England manager.
– After the overwhelming success of the Varsity Cup, questions are being asked about the future of the Vodacom Cup and the National Club Championship. We put Saru president Regan Hoskins on the spot, and also speak to Maties and Ikeys coaches about this year’s Varsity Cup.
– Brian Mujati dreams of green and gold.
491 Comments
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13 May 2008, 23:11 pm
Luke, love him or hate him, his name is thanks to the journos probably one of the best known trademarks in South Africa. Imagine if Luke could convert all this publicity into money, what I rich young man he would have been.
13 May 2008, 23:15 pm
#450 Flametop:
Sad business, real sad, hope she be OK, damn sordid swines.
Dad Burger probably could kill right now.
Better subject, how you been doing up there on the Green Isle of clover
13 May 2008, 23:19 pm
#452 skopskiet:
Busy Busy mostly
Great weather lately (for a change, no summer at all last year)
Dublin is crazy when the sun comes out.
The fashions are “special” especially some of the locals and the Eastern Europeans.
Long evenings where the sun sets at around 11PM in June
Gotta get out there while it’s nice outside
13 May 2008, 23:30 pm
Cheers Flame, good to enjoy the joie de vivre of what the good planet can offer even if its only fleeting, you go enjoy and drink in those long northern soft summer days.
13 May 2008, 23:37 pm
I have been waiting thewhole season for this debate..:
Kankowski has been the form South African Lose forward of the super 14. Ryan and Wikus. However sticking to the topic at hand Spies needs to sit on the bench. I know we are fortunate to have such an amazing athlete available particularly after missing the RWC 2007, but Kankowski stepped up during that end of year tour and was fantastic. I went to see him during th BaaBaa’s and he was out running wth ball in hand like a centre, tackling like a flanker and kicking like a fly-half. He has been compared to Zinzan Brook, what a player..KANKO ALL THE WAY!!!
13 May 2008, 23:47 pm
8.Kanko
7.Smith
6.Burger/Watson (If Burger is not back)
Bench:
Wikus
Spies
Van Niekerk (most off-loads in Super 14 so far.)
13 May 2008, 23:58 pm
#455 Tbozknows: Spies and Kanko tend to disappear a bit when the going gets tough
13 May 2008, 23:58 pm
possible combinations that could work:
burger burger burger burger burger burger
smith smith smith smith smith smith
kanko spies watson joe vermuelen alberts
watson watson watson watson watson watson
smith smith smith joe smith smith
kanko spies burger smith vermuelen alberts
wikus wikus wikus wikus wikus
smith smith smith smith joe
kanko spies watson joe smith
13 May 2008, 23:58 pm
#49 4moreyears: I agree with the mosquito treatment of Macaw by Kankowski. We should not even be debating no brainer KANKO ALL THE WAY!!
13 May 2008, 23:59 pm
bugger no justification. great! it looks a mess
14 May 2008, 00:02 am
the selection of kanko or spies is on the cards.
playing either of them requires the 2 flankers to be a little tighter.
whoever gets the nod will have to make dam sure that they play their hearts out. coz if the other gets an opportunity and prospers that could be the first guy’s career over and forever be the bench man.
14 May 2008, 00:15 am
Agree with JL, both those two look like Batman or Superman in full flight, capes flowing in the breeze, but do the have a Robin somewhere to mop up. Flash Gordon might not look so flash in a tight mans game, gotta have some nitty gritty thug doing some dirty work for the sailor boys to look pretty.
Still say Juan, and Wikus – two tough no compromise hard men, Watson – a bit of wide awake savvy with a little grit too, Big Joe – all the savvy class and courage one could hope for in a player long as his legs and bones hold out his heart won’t sink, Grobbelaar – no nonsense grafter all the heart of a soldier, Botes – much the same as Baywatch,
Broussouw, Louw, Vermeulen, Kankowski, Spies – the new generation, new kids on the block – treat them good, blood some now, nurture them for 2011
14 May 2008, 00:18 am
I think Spies is only included in this debate because of past performances. Apart from his first game back, where his only real achievement was lasting the full 80, he hasn’t done much of note. Got stopped behind the gain line far too often, imo. Contrast that with Kankowski! Nearly everytime this kid touches the ball he’s over the advantage line if not breaking the line like a decent centre would. Other times you’ll find him on the wing to give even Habs a lesson or two on how to do it…sometimes. For me its a no-brainer realy! I’d even go as far as saying Lukie deserves it more than Spies at the mo. Off the bench if he is going to be selected at 8
14 May 2008, 00:24 am
I think just about everything has now been covered in the no 8 debate.
In “Die Burger today by Steven Nell:
KAAPSTAD. – Vir Ollie le Roux is die Kaap Hollands, al sal hy nie Saterdag vir die Stormers teen die Lions op Ellispark speel nie.
Rassie Erasmus, afrigter van die Stormers, het gister gesê die voormalige Springbok-stut is nie deel van sy planne vir hierdie naweek se belangrike Super14-rugbywedstryd in Johannesburg nie.
“Ek het van die begin af gesê hy help ons maar net. Hy is ’n vriend van my en het vandag ’n bietjie met die skrums gehelp,” het Erasmus gesê.
“Ek dink ons sal teen die Lions met Brian Mujati op vaskopstut begin, met Schalk Ferreira op loskop en Brock Harris van die bank af.”
Die Stormers het nietemin gister amptelik toestemming by die Suid-Afrikaanse Rugbyunie (Saru) gekry om vir Le Roux in te span.
If this is true he will probably never play for the Stormers because their season might be over. I cannot believe Rassie wants to start with “Vat jou goed en trek” Ferreira while Ollie is available.
14 May 2008, 00:28 am
Doubt any has the explosive power of Pierre Spies, Kankowski has the float like a butterfly sting like a bee medallion round his neck, Watson maybe the street smart savvy of one not as well endowed physically yet in the mix when it matters stealing some the hard yards and the 50/50 balls, Wikus much the same. Big Joe, now he has a little bit of everything, the height, the size, the speed, the savvy, and more importantly, all the experience and lateral wisdom to know when to hang on and when to do the dance, like Juan, if it weren’t for cruel fate, Big Joe would’ve long been a legend.
14 May 2008, 00:29 am
What concerns me more is the fact that the Sharks can’t seem to score with fluent backline moves or structured backline play. And Muir is the Bok backline coach. Will he be able to front up on the bigger stage? Would’nt it’ve been better to retain Alistaire judging by the Stormers’ backline? Or is it confidence levels of players?
14 May 2008, 00:30 am
Kanko and Spies are slightly different players. Kanko is more running and lines and running into space oriented. /He will get you over the advantage line by taking the gap. Spies breaks the advantage line one way or the other -normally by power (although he can take gaps too). In this regard, he will be more useful against large forwards with a good defensive strucure. Kanko will be more useful against smaller forwards.
Both have good skills – Kanko probably more. Both have good pace- Kanko probably more (although Spies played wing before at school).
14 May 2008, 00:30 am
#464 Robzim:
Could just be a cover up, last minute shimmy might just reveal some new breaking story come Saturday round lunch time.
14 May 2008, 00:33 am
In a straight line I would hazard a guess Spies would drop Kanko over 60-100 mts.
14 May 2008, 00:34 am
#468 skopskiet:
You better be right!
14 May 2008, 00:34 am
Skoppie. What’s your take on going back to ‘old’ rules against Wales? Think it will have an effect?
14 May 2008, 00:38 am
#468 skopskiet: My thoughts exactly! If they have permission, why not use him? Can’t see that he’ll make a difference anyway but hey, at least it will make for headlines! And maybe confuse Loffie.
14 May 2008, 00:41 am
Spies looks to me like he’s super hyped on some adrenalin of a super natural vigor, sure do hope there’s no truth to the rumors that he’s ‘on’ something power enhancing, and that its just his own adrenalin thats pumping him up.
14 May 2008, 00:42 am
Ollie won’t last much longer past the 1/2 hr mark with the ELV’s. If that is true he’ll have to blitz vd Merwe in that time to be a successfull venture. Can’t see that happening! Sorry, Ollie! Want another burger?
14 May 2008, 00:46 am
#474 BokiNZ:
He might not last the full distance but to let Ferreira loose against the Lions front row is even more frightening!
14 May 2008, 00:47 am
#471 BokiNZ:
I’m hoping (actually expecting) the switch won’t be too much of an adjustment, if anything I’d say we should have the advantage in that we’ve been playing a game at much faster pace and reaction timing and also needing greater levels of fitness, conditioning and endurance, if anything it should be Wales trying to stay with the pace and action, our guys should have the edge in the breakdown and high skills activity stakes, I reckon, here’s to hope I’m right.
14 May 2008, 00:50 am
Times up for me, always gotta wait up till the wee hours to get some interesting chat in with you low cloud sailors, but now its time to lay down my weary head.
Ciao for now, country bumpkins.
14 May 2008, 00:53 am
I can’t remember when there has been so much back 3 talent in SA. It’s really sad that some guys have to miss out. For that reason I’d like to see some of the fringe/young guys given 5 minutes off the bench, primarily so they won’t go play for another country. For starters Bekker, Brussouw, Beast, Mujati, Vermeulen, Baywatch, & Botes come to mind.
14 May 2008, 00:54 am
#476 skopskiet: I think you got it right. Again I’m more or less of the same line of thought. Other than for legaly taking the ball in the 22 and kicking out on the full, we should have the upperhand if we play ELV rugby. Unless Gatland has done some serious aerobic fitness training, Wales should be down and out in the last 20.
14 May 2008, 00:57 am
Cheers, skoppie. Dont think too much of JW or you’ll have a nightmare!
14 May 2008, 01:02 am
#475 Robzim: Well, if all you want him to do is scrum, by all means…(Tommie Loubser comes to mind). But especialy with new laws you need something more. For that its a toss up realy. Either way, Stormers is going to get 5 pts!
14 May 2008, 01:06 am
guys im not sure that henkie is all that.
of the lions games i did see he was not superior over his opposite.
14 May 2008, 01:17 am
#482 Tomsta: You might be right but compared to Ollie? At least he’s got youth on his side. They should play Mujati at loosehead for full 80 then it shouldn’t matter who they play at tighthead. As long as they can hold their own. Brock needs to start living up to his namesake in WWE (not that I watch it). Isn’t it funny though that when JD crocked the Stormers scrum were in trouble. Untill this season I would’ve put JD in the try-his-damnest-but-just-not-good-enough category.
14 May 2008, 01:58 am
yep with JD there the stormers seemed to just get by. now without him they are really under pressure at every scrum. they lost 3 agaisnt the head agaisnt the tahs. that was very ugly.
14 May 2008, 08:18 am
Morning Skoppie.
It is a physical game.
As Heyneke once said, it is a game of physical collision.
The greatest players at international level have all the physicality as well as brains and skill.
You cannot pick players at international level who have a good rugby brain but are less physical.
At international level you want it all, that is a player with a brain and the physical attributes.
If you think number 8, then it is Teichman of the modern era or Morne of an older era.
You sometimes accuse me of being biased in favour of brawn and not brain, wheras you are too fixated with brain before brawn.
It is not an either/or situation, test players have to have both.
14 May 2008, 09:12 am
#485 tight head:
And that certainly sums it up.
14 May 2008, 09:15 am
Why can’t you play spies at no. 7? I’ll pick kanko at no. 8 and spier over Juan at no. 7 at this moment
14 May 2008, 10:55 am
Play Kankowski for 60 minutes…then bring spies on as an impact player…….the combo will be devastating
14 May 2008, 11:05 am
#487 vanhunks: Juan is the only certainty in the back row. Best loosie in the world. The rest are all debatable.
14 May 2008, 11:07 am
487 …with Schalk at 6 and Smith on Bench. Im not sure Spies deserves it yet but wow that would be a nice rotation and see how that combo works. liking my lips ,imagine Kanko and Spies going crazy over the whole field with Habana running onto the final pass !
19 May 2008, 19:31 pm
#309 Comment by:
You were UNBELIEVABLY CLOSE… Too close for it to have been a good guess.
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