The Bok No 8 debate
13 May 2008
Who should play eighthman for South Africa this season, Ryan Kankowski or Pierre Spies?
Phenomenal and freaky would be good words to describe these two players. Kankowski, who made his Test debut against Wales last November, was probably the top South African player in the first part of 2008 and looked to be a shoo-in to start at the back of the scrum for the Boks this year. That is until Spies, who missed the World Cup after blood clots were discovered on his lungs, made a comeback to the game that exceeded all expectations.
SA Rugby magazine asks two former Bok eighthmen, Wynand Claassen and Gary Teichmann, who they would play this season.
Also in the new issue of SA Rugby magazine, on sale Wednesday:
– In the wake of a brilliant World Cup, Juan Smith remains the Springboks’ most hardened warrior at the frontline. But is it time for him to leave Bloemfontein?
– Peter de Villiers’s attacking ambition suggests that positions 10, 12 and 13 will shoulder greater responsibility in 2008. Former Springbok inside backs Joel Stransky and Hennie le Roux examine the prospective 10-12-13 axis and why it is so crucial to an expansive approach.
– Mismatched teams, poor attendance figures, declining public interest … why Super Rugby is in desperate need of an overhaul
– Marius Joubert talks about losing his place to Jaque Fourie, gaining the respect of his Clermont team-mates, how much certain sections of the South African media irritate him, the guilt of carrying a Springbok contract and not playing, being knifed in the back by Western Province and text messages to Springbok coach Peter de Villiers.
– Nick Mallett on coaching against the Boks in June, the Six Nations, and why the ELVs could destroy rugby as we know it.
– While Wales defence coach Shaun Edwards never gets emotional in front of his players, he is a caring, loyal and deeply spiritual person.
– Wales Grand-Slam-winning captain Ryan Jones has his sights set on the Springboks.
– Former Test centre Jeremy Guscott on Martin Johnson‘s appointment as England manager.
– After the overwhelming success of the Varsity Cup, questions are being asked about the future of the Vodacom Cup and the National Club Championship. We put Saru president Regan Hoskins on the spot, and also speak to Maties and Ikeys coaches about this year’s Varsity Cup.
– Brian Mujati dreams of green and gold.
491 Comments
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13 May 2008, 13:42 pm
McCaw is kankos *****.klaar!
13 May 2008, 13:42 pm
Neither are good enuff. PdV to choose Saffa_Guy.
Will be R10 per autograph for you buggers
13 May 2008, 13:43 pm
#50 stodders: agreed.
13 May 2008, 13:43 pm
Big Joe has hit some top form ,Spies would be my third choice.
13 May 2008, 13:44 pm
#50 stodders: With respect, Burger’s not out until there’s a priest involved. He might not make it back for Wales, but he’ll be there for the 3N for sure.
13 May 2008, 13:44 pm
I am flabbergasted that this thread has not attracted Tacitus yet.
I would have thought bait like this would be irresistable to him, like churning chum for a white shark…
13 May 2008, 13:44 pm
asha1
time will tell, watson will most probably make the bok side, its just my opinion. that we are blessed with far better loose forwards than luke watson
13 May 2008, 13:44 pm
There is no debate. Kanko is the king at 8.
13 May 2008, 13:45 pm
This is a no brainer. Kankowski.
Wickus Van Heerden is better than Luke Watson.
13 May 2008, 13:46 pm
#58 King Shark:
lol
13 May 2008, 13:46 pm
#48 rangerman:
Ahh you been following. Some guys here must be thinking some of us are crazy…
Did you also see that the Lions must play cats-up and Harry felt that they will have to import a few Miaowries?
13 May 2008, 13:46 pm
4more years
you need to see past the eng afrikaans , spies is far better player than big joe
13 May 2008, 13:46 pm
all this kanko love is getting as irratating as matfield and watson discussions on keo
13 May 2008, 13:47 pm
Rotate them! And then after they have both played against the All Blacks and Wobblies you decide who is better for witch conditions or game. Simple.
And all these guys calling for Big Joe please tell me how many games this year has he played 8th man? 80% of the time he has played 7! He is still having a good season though.
13 May 2008, 13:48 pm
#52 saffa_guy:
Now here is a bloke that has not shown his face here in a while…
How’s it hanging down under?
13 May 2008, 13:49 pm
in anyways, i think vermeulen played better in the 1st half of the 2008 season,
13 May 2008, 13:49 pm
Mmm, tough one, Kanko on form but we know what Spies can do.
13 May 2008, 13:49 pm
witch=which
13 May 2008, 13:49 pm
and i would start with big joe
13 May 2008, 13:49 pm
#61 Sheriff: lol sheriff, they are the undisputed wordsmiths! i had a moer of a laugh when i caught up with that thread.
13 May 2008, 13:50 pm
Is this a joke ?
Its Kankowski without a doubt. Spies has done nothing to deserve a Bok call up this year. He has added to the disgrace and humiliation of the Bulls. He can only redeem himself by helping to get Ludekak tossed out of the country.
Kankowski at least looks like he wants to play and Spies is a little girly tinkerbelle this season.
13 May 2008, 13:51 pm
One should compare their workrate. In tests that is most important. I think statistics would show that Spies is not that hard a worker. Very good runner though.
13 May 2008, 13:51 pm
Spies off the bench……Kanko to start…
13 May 2008, 13:52 pm
#52 saffa_guy:
What’s up Saffa, why so scarce?
Or have you been hanging out with that new blogger DaOne in London?
Check him out bro’ , daai ou is nie lekker nie, ek se…
13 May 2008, 13:53 pm
#70 rangerman:
Talking of which … Kat and Dawn are hibernating today
13 May 2008, 13:53 pm
stoders
time will tell, give luke a fair go and see what he can do this tri nations series.
all i want for Christmas is the tri nations trophy next to mr ellis , drinking tassie.
13 May 2008, 13:53 pm
Stodders a theory really but quite simple.
I believe the ELV’s dictate that you should play a dual fetcher combination in your loose-trio combination, if for only part of the match.
A lot of the Stormers relative success was due to their dominance in this department very evident especially in their game against the Chiefs. Rassie of course is no stranger to a dual-fetcher scenario playing it at the Cheetahs already a couple of years back, and who can forget the impact Floors had in the one CC final?
The point being that the team who controls the breakdown collisions will most probably be the team that wins the game. I find it interesting that people compliment the defensive structures of the Stormers and mainly look to the backline when they do dish out compliments, forgetting the vital role the loosies play in slowing the ball down at the breakdown to allow their defensive structures to get in place – one cannot work without the other.
Having worked a bit with the ELV’s also I find when you play the dual-fetchers you are basically nullifying their effectiveness when you play them left and right on a scrum specifically of which we see plenty of nowadays in the ELV’s. If the second ‘fetcher’ pack down at 8 his speed to the breakdown is much better.
I also found that ‘traditional’ (for a better word) 8’s struggle a hell of a lot to adopt to the ELV’s, more so than adopting their games to pack down on the side of the scrum and still perform their traditional roles within the team.
That said, in SA I think Spies, Kanko and Watson are traditional 8’s – the traditional 8’s would rather be Danie Rossouw, Diack and the likes in this context. Strangely enough I always held the belief Juan Smith is more an 8 than a 7 so not much changes there for me.
Scrums play a vital part in the ELV’s and we see a lot of them today. And most teams use this now as preferred 1st phase attacking platform’s so if only, I would employ this dual fetcher example or theory as above on defensive scrums only if you are too scared to upset the apple cart. None more so at the Sharks where I think Kanko does very well at the back of the scrum (on their own ball) but would consider shifting him to the side on defensive scrums with Botes at 8 and Daniel at openside.
It depends of course on each player’s specific strengths, Spies for instance has played openside so its not new to him and for that perhaps keep him at 8 to hunt with Wikus, horses for …
But I will say it again, collisions at the breakdown wins you matches under the ELV’s, combined with speed at which players get there, this is why I would seriously consider a dual fetcher role in any team if you have that luxury.
13 May 2008, 13:56 pm
#75 Sheriff: dawnie is scarce but i worry most about the lady ruck! she is nowhere lately whilst dawn is never far.
13 May 2008, 13:56 pm
Kanko and Watson are NOT traditional 8’s
13 May 2008, 13:56 pm
#74 Pietman:
DaOne made a brief appearance yesterday in the guise of DaCritic.
Clearly the common denominator is the first 2 letters. But he was literally in and out …
Why is that you think?
13 May 2008, 13:59 pm
#80 Sheriff: daone was on the no bok quotas thread for a while.
13 May 2008, 14:00 pm
#79 PissAnt: watson i agree with pa, but kanko?
please elaborate.
13 May 2008, 14:01 pm
Kankowski without a doubt and spies on as a supersub in the last 20min
13 May 2008, 14:01 pm
#81 rangerman:
Oh ok, oh yes I remember we could not access the web here yesterday afternoon.
The quotas thread you say, why am I not surprised?
13 May 2008, 14:02 pm
Kanko is the incumbent and has done nothing to warrant being dropped. Spies must displace him and with the way he has comeback he seems intent on doing so. The nett result is that we have 2 number 8′s in the country who are the envy of many countries in the rugby world and who are pushing each other onward and upward. What a fantastic situation to be in!
My view is that both of them should be in the mix for any matchday 22, irrelevant of who starts.
13 May 2008, 14:03 pm
#84 Sheriff: i really wanted to hang around for that but alas, it was not to be. he elicits a chuckle though i must say.
13 May 2008, 14:03 pm
kanko ois a good sub like bob skinstad, start with joe and bring on kanko later
13 May 2008, 14:04 pm
I vote spies on the wing instead on Pietersen…. Damn he is pathetic…
13 May 2008, 14:05 pm
#79 PissAnt:
Pissant, I think that depends on how you classify a “traditional” 8? Are you talking about the Anton Leonard, Jannie Breedt type 8?
I would say that Spies and Kanko are your perfect 8. Pace, power, height, vision (moreso in Kanko) and good skills.
13 May 2008, 14:06 pm
Sean Plaatjies from the Falcons or Solly Tybilike fron the Bulldogs,although Kanko does have curly hair,mmmmmmmmmm, interesting!!!
13 May 2008, 14:06 pm
big mouth Joubert at it again..fcking arrogant WP brat
13 May 2008, 14:07 pm
#87 neels: neels, back up what you are saying please. nothing wrong with supporting big joe but do you really think he has the inside edge on kanko? in terms of what? ball carries, tackle count, speed, linking ability, tries scored, metres gained?
13 May 2008, 14:07 pm
#87 neels:
Big Joe has been in good form, but I think he has never lived up to the reputation he has. IMHO Spies and Kanko are both superior 8th men.
13 May 2008, 14:08 pm
#86 rangerman:
Rolling then forward to tonight, what do you expect ?
13 May 2008, 14:09 pm
Sheriff And Pietman,
Been bizzeee on this side. Work, work and more work. Mostly been scanning the day’s debate at the end of every evening.
On the topic of Da One. Spent the past weekend with the militnat. Ignoring the fact that we in the land of the white man, brainy Smurf aka Da One, decides to loudly express his dubious views on the local underground transport system. All i remember is a white blur and a BNP logo. Been bloody hard trying to read with a piece of rump steak strapped to my left eye the past few days. Da bloody Onus – last time i hang out with that nutter.
13 May 2008, 14:09 pm
rangerman, don’t encourage him
13 May 2008, 14:11 pm
#94 Sheriff: a few beers and a good laugh will do nicely sheriff. beyond that? anybody’s guess.
13 May 2008, 14:11 pm
PissAnt,
Great post, thanks. It adds ballast to my opinion that Kankowski should play 8 as he is a a better at the supporting role at the breakdown than Spies. If Spies is to play, I think it will be from the bench to cover Juan Smith.
Looking at the backrows of the Boks major foe, the ABs have a dual fetching 7/8 in McCaw and So’oialo already. Maybe this will stand thm in good stead for the ELVs in the Tri Nations as they won’t need to try out new combinations?
13 May 2008, 14:11 pm
Can’t believe there is debate surrounding the no. 8. Spies has done nothing this season – we are obsessed with size in SA. Kankowski has shown that he is a game breaker, Spies plays a few games and suddenly he should start in the bok team. (Joe is not even in the same league)
13 May 2008, 14:11 pm
#96 RedMan: who redman?
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