The Bok No 8 debate
13 May 2008
Who should play eighthman for South Africa this season, Ryan Kankowski or Pierre Spies?
Phenomenal and freaky would be good words to describe these two players. Kankowski, who made his Test debut against Wales last November, was probably the top South African player in the first part of 2008 and looked to be a shoo-in to start at the back of the scrum for the Boks this year. That is until Spies, who missed the World Cup after blood clots were discovered on his lungs, made a comeback to the game that exceeded all expectations.
SA Rugby magazine asks two former Bok eighthmen, Wynand Claassen and Gary Teichmann, who they would play this season.
Also in the new issue of SA Rugby magazine, on sale Wednesday:
– In the wake of a brilliant World Cup, Juan Smith remains the Springboks’ most hardened warrior at the frontline. But is it time for him to leave Bloemfontein?
– Peter de Villiers’s attacking ambition suggests that positions 10, 12 and 13 will shoulder greater responsibility in 2008. Former Springbok inside backs Joel Stransky and Hennie le Roux examine the prospective 10-12-13 axis and why it is so crucial to an expansive approach.
– Mismatched teams, poor attendance figures, declining public interest … why Super Rugby is in desperate need of an overhaul
– Marius Joubert talks about losing his place to Jaque Fourie, gaining the respect of his Clermont team-mates, how much certain sections of the South African media irritate him, the guilt of carrying a Springbok contract and not playing, being knifed in the back by Western Province and text messages to Springbok coach Peter de Villiers.
– Nick Mallett on coaching against the Boks in June, the Six Nations, and why the ELVs could destroy rugby as we know it.
– While Wales defence coach Shaun Edwards never gets emotional in front of his players, he is a caring, loyal and deeply spiritual person.
– Wales Grand-Slam-winning captain Ryan Jones has his sights set on the Springboks.
– Former Test centre Jeremy Guscott on Martin Johnson‘s appointment as England manager.
– After the overwhelming success of the Varsity Cup, questions are being asked about the future of the Vodacom Cup and the National Club Championship. We put Saru president Regan Hoskins on the spot, and also speak to Maties and Ikeys coaches about this year’s Varsity Cup.
– Brian Mujati dreams of green and gold.
491 Comments
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13 May 2008, 14:12 pm
It got to be Spies. He is the man in the saddle and only mist out during the WC and end of year tour as a result of his sickness. It is not a mere coincidence that the Bulls return to form coincide with his return.
Having said that Kanko and Vermeulen is also very good while Watson will never let any side down. He did iritate me on Saturday though with his constant moaning and talking – almost worse than Bolla. The first part of the season he behaved well, but it is almost as he wants to prove to someone that he should be the Bok Captain now that the test is on the horison.
Just before the WC last year Pakslae was nowhere in the ranking, yet he was one of the outstanding players so dont write him off either.
13 May 2008, 14:13 pm
#95 saffa_guy: lmao!!!
13 May 2008, 14:13 pm
#95 saffa_guy:
Do you feel that the treatment he received was fair?
13 May 2008, 14:13 pm
#82 rangerman: Kanko is simply put a superb athlete. Almost a total athlete suited perfectly for the modern game and under the ELV’s – I would reserve judgment on him however under old laws, when games are extremely tight as I have not seen him play too much under these conditions.
Remember he comes from the Sevens school of players, his ability to run into space, his speed and skills are all huge assets for a guy like Kanko. This suits him to a tee in the ELV’s.
But the simplest example I can use is that I see a Kanko, very different from what I saw a Teichman who to me was our best 8th man in the modern era.
Like I said, I would reserve judgment on his total game for now because I would like to see him in a test against the All Blacks at the House of Pain or maybe a test in the NH under the old laws – it all depends you know.
I reckon the certain positions are undergoing an evolution especially under the ELV’s, loosies specifically being a couple of them.
Kanko’s awareness in defense and reading the game is still a bit of a mystery to me – he features prominantly in open play which one can expect from a Sevens boy, but he is by no means the finished article, same as Spies to be honest.
13 May 2008, 14:14 pm
Mighty Elephant?
you Despatch bru?
13 May 2008, 14:14 pm
Pierre Spies is good.The Hoff is brilliant.
13 May 2008, 14:15 pm
neels, rangerman
13 May 2008, 14:16 pm
Tino junior has nothing on Spies..the latter is the most naturally gifted player we have along with Steyn..FACT
13 May 2008, 14:16 pm
#97 rangerman:
Yeah, I mean after all, what more can you expect from a Khoisan?
Just don’t colon-ise him…
I think he needs to work tomorrow…
13 May 2008, 14:17 pm
#95 saffa_guy:
That bad huh?
Sorry to hear that.
No man, cut the brother loose, he is bad news, he will just get you in the kuk over there.
13 May 2008, 14:17 pm
#89 Vetkoek: I think my last post might answer that Vetkoek?
13 May 2008, 14:18 pm
#104 PissAnt:
See my post # 25; just before/after you had to dash out
13 May 2008, 14:18 pm
Vernon Koekemoer to start at 6, Juan Smith at 7, Ryan Kankowski at 8.
Spies to play off the bench, maybe.
13 May 2008, 14:19 pm
#97 rangerman:
You are in for a treat with Harry tonite, I guarantee you!
You boys must enjoy.
13 May 2008, 14:19 pm
Seems like it Sheriff!
13 May 2008, 14:21 pm
#104 PissAnt: PA, good post!
i also rate teichmann very highly (but then i would, would’nt i?). but on that note, kanko played s14 last year under the old rules and whilst i am not saying he should’ve been a bok, some of the things we praise danie for doing, like cover tackling, would be just as simple for kanko with his pace.
i agree, the old fir ‘n brimstone of test rugby will be the acid test for kanko but to my mind, an 8th man who can break from the back of the lineout (he is tall and offers another option), can control the ball at is feet (something i am still doubtfull concerning schalk) and can link effectively with the backline using his pace is perfectly suited to any kind of rugby.
the one concern maybe is that he does go missing sometimes but no more than spies.
time will tell but with PdV’s stated intention of playing creative, open rugby, kanko is a shoe in.
13 May 2008, 14:22 pm
#115 PissAnt:
Now you’re doing the same. Playing it safe that is.
13 May 2008, 14:23 pm
Rangerman
Tiechman was a great captain BUT average player much like Pienaar was.. Richter was Tiechman equal.
13 May 2008, 14:25 pm
#107 RedMan: ok redman, done deal!
sheriff, pieta
i will take good care of my pigmented friend. just hope he doesnt expect me to drink some kind of herbal sh#t,cut palms or rub noses. its a family place!
13 May 2008, 14:26 pm
#118 greatest13gerber:
Oh, but of course. If Gary Teichmann happened to play for Noord-Transvaal, I’m sure you would consider him world-class.
13 May 2008, 14:26 pm
#111 PissAnt:
Yup- sure does. I agree with much of what you say, but I must say I think that Spies and Kanko are more suited to the modern game (with or without ELV’s). Remember that they are both very young and will become battle hardened with age. I’ve watched Kanko quite closely this year and I find he gets through a mountain of work and he is certainly not afraid to do the dirty work. With experience, he can only become more effective.
SA is blessed with an abundance of hugely talented loosies. We are in a very fortunate position.
13 May 2008, 14:27 pm
#118 greatest13gerber:greatest, we didnt feel that way about him in natal. especially when he crossed the tryline for THAT try in THAT currie cup, before he was captain, when we were playing for our first ever cc trophy against……….well, you get the picture.
13 May 2008, 14:28 pm
#118 greatest13gerber:
i reckon Richter was the most overrated 8th Man in the country in his “prime”.
13 May 2008, 14:29 pm
#123 Vetkoek: adriaan “flip pass” richter. good player. no teichmann.
13 May 2008, 14:29 pm
#119 rangerman:
I’m very deliberate in writing what I am. I know Harry will read the thread later tonight.
Just add a a bit of spark to tomorrow’s blogging…
13 May 2008, 14:29 pm
Spies is prettier.
13 May 2008, 14:29 pm
I don’t know why you guys are even discussing the merits of who should be the Bokke 8.
Kancowski (spell it anyway you like. He’s your man).
And the loose forward cover from the bench. Luke. He can play all 3, He can cover for Capt if you like……….take the field goals as well no doubt.
Spies “the one man wreaking machine”. He will have his day. But not just yet.
13 May 2008, 14:30 pm
Cant wait to get my hands on the new SA RUGBY. A lot of people are saying how great the new ELV’s are, but if Nick Mallet is saying it might kill the game, I would be very interested to read this article. Nick has so much knowledge, I have met him before, he knows his rugby inside out. Cant wait to read the article.
13 May 2008, 14:31 pm
#105 greatest13gerber: Ja Bru
13 May 2008, 14:31 pm
#127 cane: and heeeeeeeeeeres cane!
that sound like a horror movie:
“the wreaking”
13 May 2008, 14:31 pm
#116 rangerman: #121 Vetkoek: Yeah look I reckon like I said the loosies and roles of loosies are undergoing a bit of an evolution – and its not like we are struggling with talent here.
What concerns me however is that a loosie can look absolutely kak if played in the wrong combinations, something we then judge the individual on which is unfair, and something I can guarrantee you Spies and Kanko will be judged on this year.
Peter must simply ensure he gets the combination right.
#117 Sheriff: Does not matter how hard I try and be contraversial I just cant nail it!
13 May 2008, 14:32 pm
Put Spies and Kankowski on the wings for the Boks and the Backline might start scoring tries.
13 May 2008, 14:33 pm
#115 PissAnt:
Just joking mate, Sheriff the provocateur …
How does Kanko (sounds like kinki that’s why you guys like him so much) measure up to the like of Murray Mexted and Zinzan Brooke?
13 May 2008, 14:33 pm
I would go with Kankowski as 8th man, cant go wrong. We have so much talent at loos forward, would’nt touch Luke Watson, seems like controvasy seems to follow him around.
13 May 2008, 14:34 pm
must say, it is nice to have two guys this size who are both astoundingly quick!
13 May 2008, 14:35 pm
luke watson will be a merit selection this year. there, my neck is out…….
13 May 2008, 14:35 pm
luke wont start but he will be in the squad.
13 May 2008, 14:35 pm
we definetly have depth in our lossies, Kanko deserves the number 8 jersey. However let not forget what Spies can do, i think he will play off the bench thou. I worried about our backline combination, we lack in this department
13 May 2008, 14:35 pm
#128 Craig Goosen:
Nick Mallet, yeah great guy …
Dave von Hoesslin and Gaffie du Toit – what is the link between Nick and these 2 blokes?
13 May 2008, 14:36 pm
luke will be in the squad of 40……thereafter to be honest there is no place for him?
13 May 2008, 14:37 pm
#130 rangerman:
Cane’s always very dramatic. Probably ’cause he has limited blogging time.
13 May 2008, 14:39 pm
Sheriff
Zinzan talent was Godlike compared to Kanko today. Zinzan should have played 10 and he was rated one of the fittest men to ever wear the black jersey.
13 May 2008, 14:40 pm
#140 kritical:
Do you mean that or are you just being kritical?
13 May 2008, 14:41 pm
That FS number 8 has being on par with Kanko I believe if not the form number 8 this year.
13 May 2008, 14:41 pm
pretty tough decision, might be tempting to slot them both in.
13 May 2008, 14:45 pm
Dear Mr Pieter DeVilliers,
Please play Schalk Burger at 8 when he regains fitness!
13 May 2008, 14:47 pm
Spies is King
13 May 2008, 14:48 pm
#142 greatest13gerber:
I introduced Mex and Zinnie for a reason.
We here in the “republic” do not always value skills. I have listed all the players at 8 earlier and none of them, at this stage anyway, possess the flair of a Bob Skinstad for instance.
Ironically Luke Watson has at times displayed the anticipation and “on-the-ball-intelligence” that Bob had. But he lacks the size.
We need to invest a lot in what is between the ears. That’s generally the difference between a good player and a great player.
13 May 2008, 14:48 pm
Sheriff, that was years ago man. You judging Mallets rugby knowledge on 2 guys that were not that great anyway.
Mallet knows his rugby.
I wouldnt touch Luke Watson, controvasy [And his Dad] seem to pop up wherever he is. We have too many good loose forwards in SA to have to deal with Luke and his father.
13 May 2008, 14:49 pm
the problem with Kanko & Spies is none of them can slow/steal ball at the breakdown! number one reason why stormers have been so good this year – All three loosies slow/steal ball
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