The Bok No 8 debate
13 May 2008
Who should play eighthman for South Africa this season, Ryan Kankowski or Pierre Spies?
Phenomenal and freaky would be good words to describe these two players. Kankowski, who made his Test debut against Wales last November, was probably the top South African player in the first part of 2008 and looked to be a shoo-in to start at the back of the scrum for the Boks this year. That is until Spies, who missed the World Cup after blood clots were discovered on his lungs, made a comeback to the game that exceeded all expectations.
SA Rugby magazine asks two former Bok eighthmen, Wynand Claassen and Gary Teichmann, who they would play this season.
Also in the new issue of SA Rugby magazine, on sale Wednesday:
– In the wake of a brilliant World Cup, Juan Smith remains the Springboks’ most hardened warrior at the frontline. But is it time for him to leave Bloemfontein?
– Peter de Villiers’s attacking ambition suggests that positions 10, 12 and 13 will shoulder greater responsibility in 2008. Former Springbok inside backs Joel Stransky and Hennie le Roux examine the prospective 10-12-13 axis and why it is so crucial to an expansive approach.
– Mismatched teams, poor attendance figures, declining public interest … why Super Rugby is in desperate need of an overhaul
– Marius Joubert talks about losing his place to Jaque Fourie, gaining the respect of his Clermont team-mates, how much certain sections of the South African media irritate him, the guilt of carrying a Springbok contract and not playing, being knifed in the back by Western Province and text messages to Springbok coach Peter de Villiers.
– Nick Mallett on coaching against the Boks in June, the Six Nations, and why the ELVs could destroy rugby as we know it.
– While Wales defence coach Shaun Edwards never gets emotional in front of his players, he is a caring, loyal and deeply spiritual person.
– Wales Grand-Slam-winning captain Ryan Jones has his sights set on the Springboks.
– Former Test centre Jeremy Guscott on Martin Johnson‘s appointment as England manager.
– After the overwhelming success of the Varsity Cup, questions are being asked about the future of the Vodacom Cup and the National Club Championship. We put Saru president Regan Hoskins on the spot, and also speak to Maties and Ikeys coaches about this year’s Varsity Cup.
– Brian Mujati dreams of green and gold.
491 Comments
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13 May 2008, 14:49 pm
Zinzan is a legend of the modern era. Kanko and Spies have raw, physical attributes that may see them one day join the pantheon of the greats. they are a long, long way from that now though. Let’s look again in 5 years and see how they’ve done.
13 May 2008, 14:51 pm
when is the bok tream announcement?
13 May 2008, 14:52 pm
tream = squad
13 May 2008, 14:52 pm
Sheriff,
The thing that set set Zinzan Brooke apart for me from other 8s in the modern era was his ability to play a fast, open style of game or if the need arised, a slower, tighter game. He was just a brilliant all round player, blessed with incredible skills allied to a brilliant reading of the game. Which is quite weird because as a commentator and analyst of the game, he really is quite poor!
13 May 2008, 14:56 pm
Stodders # 11 – Luke Watson has been solid, but in whose position will he play? Schalk? Juan? You’ve got to be kidding. There are a number of players that do what he does better than him – Brussouw for one.
As for Spies – Kankowski; I can’t believe there’s even a debate. Kankowski has been the form # 8 in the whole Super 14, never mind just the SA sides. The guy is an absolute revelation.
13 May 2008, 14:57 pm
#149 Craig Goosen:
Throughout Jake’s tenure as coach he was often compared with Nick. Come to think of it , Nick Mallet, that would be a great nick, wouldn’t it?
Time after time did we have to see Nick’s 72% (I think) winning ratio to Jake’s 68% ( I think)
Now Jake of course won the Trinations (Nick’s claim to fame) and shall I remind you – went on to win the RWC07.
That’s the stats side of things. Jake also surpassed him with his ability to manage and look after his players.
Now nowhere am I rating Mallet’s rugby knowledge, he’s right up there with the best in the world, even Clive W said so.
Thought I’ll just table these thoughts seeing that you are so in awe of Nick.
13 May 2008, 15:01 pm
Looked at their Fantasy stats
Player Games Tries Avg: Beat defence Tackles T/Over W L Lineout PenCon
PS 6 1 1 6 0.2 0.2 1 0.5
RK 12 3 2 4 1 1 2 0.5
Similar players. I would flip a coin. Both great on atack, both makes a couple of cover tackles and both gives you a lineout option. Spies plays behind an average pack this year. Kankowski has a much better tight five. Would like to see them both playing with the same team. Maybe rotate them in warm up games.
13 May 2008, 15:02 pm
#154 stodders:
Quite frankly I cannot recall a game where Zinnie commentated.
Mexted of course is one of my all time favourites. Cannot say the same of Grant Nesbitt and Tony Johnson.
SA however, also not that great there. Just haven’t seen the Bill Maclaren of SA…
13 May 2008, 15:02 pm
if nick mallet had taken teichmann to the 99 wc then the boks may have been 3 from 4 and how boring would that be? by now we would be on the experimental variations to the experimental variations to the….you get the point.
13 May 2008, 15:03 pm
Play Spies at inside centre……That could cause some problems for the opposition
13 May 2008, 15:04 pm
So according to Keo’s mag there are only 2 no 8 worthy enough to play for the Boks. What utter ****!
Well what about Big Joe? is he being discriminated against because he can roar? What he has forgotten about playing at the back of the scrum those 2 pretenders still have to learn.
Like Jake said there is no substitute for experience and Big Joe = experience.
13 May 2008, 15:05 pm
Luke Watson has looked dodgy since big brother Schalk stopped clearing the rucks for him. Kanko’ is great talent but still young and inexperienced for Bok team, same applies to Spies who although great on the break can’t distribute. Big Joe, one swallow doesn’t make a hooker. Juan Smith Kobus Grobbelaar and Wikus would be my first choice (Wikus covering for Schalk) with kanko on bench till Spies learns to pass.
13 May 2008, 15:05 pm
#160 Zulushark:
That’s a nice out-of-the box idea.
What do you see as the basic role of a 12?
13 May 2008, 15:06 pm
SA is extremely fortunate to have two freakishly talented players to choose from and its a good position for PdV and SA rugby to be in.
I do, however, think Kankowski has been the form loose foreward of the whole tournament let alone just in SA and for this reason he should start for the Boks.
Spies would be phenomenal off the bench and the healthy competition will be good for both of them.
13 May 2008, 15:06 pm
What about Joe v Niekerk?
13 May 2008, 15:06 pm
On current form aswell as reputation this is my loose trio”
6.Wikus(Schalk is injured)
7.Smith
8.Kankowski
Bench:
Watson
Spies will obviously be back in the mix , but I don’t think he deserves selection ahead of Kankowski , and Watson can cover 6 and 8 from the bench and has been in better form.
13 May 2008, 15:06 pm
Kanko at 8 and Spies at 6 while Schalk is injured.
13 May 2008, 15:06 pm
#161 RedLion: maak al die leeus bokke?
13 May 2008, 15:07 pm
Forwards:
8 KANKO
7 Juan
6 Incredible Schalk
5 Bakkies
4 Matfield
3 BJ
2 Smittie
1 Heinke
Bench
Bismark, CJ, Muller, Joe, Spies, 5-2 bench Split…
13 May 2008, 15:08 pm
In a idealistic world I would like to see the following in green and gold
1. Hienke
2. Smit
3. BJ
4. Vic
5. Bakkies
6. Schalk
7. Juan
8. Kanko
9. Fdup
10. Butch
11. Tonda
12. steyn
13. spies
14. Habana
15. Conrad
13 May 2008, 15:09 pm
#167
that is a great idea for while burger is out…
and NO luke watson please, Hoskings said no more quotas!
13 May 2008, 15:09 pm
#161 RedLion:
Who is discriminating against him? Loffie right now is not even using him at 8.
And with Willem’s performance last Saturday, I doubt that he will.
13 May 2008, 15:09 pm
#167 Blue Nine: Spies At 6. Are you on drugs ????
13 May 2008, 15:09 pm
#156 Sheriff: Dewi Morrison, Stuart Barnes and Will Greenwood are throwing his name around as British Lions coach under Mcqeegan
13 May 2008, 15:09 pm
he he Zulushark, great pack you have there
13 May 2008, 15:10 pm
i agree, Louke has shown at times that he has a head on his shoulders…but to be frank….he is way to small..the varsity cup had bigger players…with schalk, Juan, Wikus , kanko and Spies in the squad…this is no a Charity…and even if those players were not available….louw,vermeulen, botes then only watson….Ok maybe not botes..lol
13 May 2008, 15:11 pm
#176 kritical: its “hat trick botes” if you please!
13 May 2008, 15:11 pm
#167 Blue Nine: Powder puff, we need someone that can play towards the ground like Jaques Botes, Duane Vermeulen, Wickus van Heerden just to create balance in the back row
13 May 2008, 15:12 pm
sheriff
The basic role of a 12 is distribution, pressure relief and backline mngt, but hell, with Butch and Fdup in the line, can you imagine having the likes of spies running at centres with juan and kanko running off him. He would be a handful. I know he has passing problem but that can be fixed
13 May 2008, 15:12 pm
Spies at 13!!!!!!!!!!!
13 May 2008, 15:12 pm
#170 Zulushark:
See my post 163
13 May 2008, 15:12 pm
9 FDP
10 Butchie
11 Habana
12 Jean
13 Jacques
14 Tonderai
15 Steyn
Ruan and Pieterson/Jantjies on the bench
with the 5-2 split Spies can cover loosies and backline
13 May 2008, 15:12 pm
#166 wp_boytjie: I dont think anyone can argue with that back row either. Very strong indeed. I just feel that spies has to be in there somewhere. Oh boy, PdV has got a selection quandrary on his hands.
13 May 2008, 15:13 pm
Vermeulen
13 May 2008, 15:13 pm
#167 & #171
Spies at flank while Schaalk is out. Must be nucking futs. Not even going to you the honour of repeating your names. And who’s going to fetch the ball, the tooth fairy?
13 May 2008, 15:13 pm
#179 Zulushark: jpp fixed it for him last year.
13 May 2008, 15:13 pm
#171 crikey_mate_did you see that shark: And you believed him? You also then believe in Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny
13 May 2008, 15:14 pm
Oh yeah, and Superman is going to zoom down for the big hits, while smiling at Louis Lane
13 May 2008, 15:14 pm
#182 crikey_mate_did you see that shark:
100% agreed.
13 May 2008, 15:14 pm
#182 crikey_mate_did you see that shark: That is the best backline i have seen posted on this site to date. World class.
Jantjies before pieterson on the bench at the moment i would think.
13 May 2008, 15:15 pm
Solly Tbylikka (spelling) has also got experience Red Lion
13 May 2008, 15:15 pm
#174 JL1:
You mean as assistant coach?
13 May 2008, 15:17 pm
172
KEO’S spin machine says that only 2 players can play at 8 for the Boks.
I do not fall for old spin. I know that a certain player from the Xhosa tribe who plays for problems will wear the #8 jersey.
13 May 2008, 15:18 pm
Seriously now, it will surely boil down to a horses for courses selection. Both are great runners but kanko is more suited to the thinking mans game early on and spies can run them to pieces in the latters stages. I wouls seriously like to see both on the field against wales tho. They are supremly fit and amongst the most talented ball players in the current crop of players
13 May 2008, 15:18 pm
#171 crikey_mate_did you see that shark:
Oooooh “Crikey mate” do we have a f*cking australian idiot hanging out here ? Yipeeeeee
13 May 2008, 15:18 pm
#192 Sheriff: No, full coach of the mid week team, reporting into the head coach
13 May 2008, 15:20 pm
#59 wooden spoon:
dont talk kuk check the stats between wickus and luke , luke claps him by far metres gained, tackles made, turnovers won, even far less tackles missed, only thing wickus has on luke is height, lukes 40m sprint is even faster
13 May 2008, 15:20 pm
What the All Blacks would do to be able to choose between two no.8′s like kankowski and spies…
13 May 2008, 15:20 pm
JL1,
Last time I checked, Italy wasn’t a home nations country. I know it shouldn’t, but the old boys network work a particular way. I would be surprised if the old farts select Mallet as anything other than as a technical adviser. Certinaly not a coach.
Personally, if the Lions are to have a chance, they need to select the best they can get. I’d have McGeechan as head coach. He’s the best coach in the NH for getting players to gel in the short space of time needed to make the test matches competitive. He isn’t divisive like Woodward and his record commands respect. I would love it if he would call out Jim Telfer for one last go at Springboks. To succeed in South Africa you need a bit of old school brutality to get you used to how you guys like to play
Shaun Edwards will go as defence coach. He is the brightest young coach in the NH, and both and Geechs coach at Wasps.
I would select Jake White if he was available as technical adviser. There isn’t a better man avaialble who knows the strengths and weaknesses of each player and team in SA.
Between those 4, and with the right selections, the Lions could pose the Boks some problems like they did in 97!
13 May 2008, 15:20 pm
thanks Biggles… Yip, i also believe Jantjies edges out Pieterson at the moment, but i must say i am a bit sceptical about jantjies, he had a few great seasons b4 but when he became bok he just disappeared! but he has bn a revelation for the stormers at the back. just edging out aplon midget he he
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