The Bok No 8 debate
13 May 2008
Who should play eighthman for South Africa this season, Ryan Kankowski or Pierre Spies?
Phenomenal and freaky would be good words to describe these two players. Kankowski, who made his Test debut against Wales last November, was probably the top South African player in the first part of 2008 and looked to be a shoo-in to start at the back of the scrum for the Boks this year. That is until Spies, who missed the World Cup after blood clots were discovered on his lungs, made a comeback to the game that exceeded all expectations.
SA Rugby magazine asks two former Bok eighthmen, Wynand Claassen and Gary Teichmann, who they would play this season.
Also in the new issue of SA Rugby magazine, on sale Wednesday:
– In the wake of a brilliant World Cup, Juan Smith remains the Springboks’ most hardened warrior at the frontline. But is it time for him to leave Bloemfontein?
– Peter de Villiers’s attacking ambition suggests that positions 10, 12 and 13 will shoulder greater responsibility in 2008. Former Springbok inside backs Joel Stransky and Hennie le Roux examine the prospective 10-12-13 axis and why it is so crucial to an expansive approach.
– Mismatched teams, poor attendance figures, declining public interest … why Super Rugby is in desperate need of an overhaul
– Marius Joubert talks about losing his place to Jaque Fourie, gaining the respect of his Clermont team-mates, how much certain sections of the South African media irritate him, the guilt of carrying a Springbok contract and not playing, being knifed in the back by Western Province and text messages to Springbok coach Peter de Villiers.
– Nick Mallett on coaching against the Boks in June, the Six Nations, and why the ELVs could destroy rugby as we know it.
– While Wales defence coach Shaun Edwards never gets emotional in front of his players, he is a caring, loyal and deeply spiritual person.
– Wales Grand-Slam-winning captain Ryan Jones has his sights set on the Springboks.
– Former Test centre Jeremy Guscott on Martin Johnson‘s appointment as England manager.
– After the overwhelming success of the Varsity Cup, questions are being asked about the future of the Vodacom Cup and the National Club Championship. We put Saru president Regan Hoskins on the spot, and also speak to Maties and Ikeys coaches about this year’s Varsity Cup.
– Brian Mujati dreams of green and gold.
491 Comments
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13 May 2008, 15:47 pm
#247 St.Petersburgbok:
blue goggles?
13 May 2008, 15:48 pm
#245 stodders: Hmmmmmmmmmmm…….mmmmmmmmmmmmmm…………mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ….aaaaahhhhhhhhh……….. thats how I remember Hmmmmmmmmm the gaged gimp!
13 May 2008, 15:49 pm
Kanko by a mile, not even sure why Spies is mentioned?
13 May 2008, 15:49 pm
The best “to the ball” loose forward in SA goes about his business every Saturday, and no one talks about him, because he is not controversial and is not a fashionable topic.
Yet he is an absolutely brilliant and humble rugby player.
He would not be out of place in many international teams.
His name is Baywatch Grobler.
13 May 2008, 15:50 pm
Can only be Kanko – Spiecies om the bench as loose cover!
13 May 2008, 15:50 pm
Maybe Spies on wing. Remember his dad playing there, originated the expression “‘n bang vleuel is ‘n goeie vleuel” ie a scared wing is a good wing
13 May 2008, 15:51 pm
I would start with Smith and play Kanko off the bench after 50 min?
Mallet Skinstad, Techman manouver, resulted in an internal brainfart for the Mallet though.
13 May 2008, 15:53 pm
#253 Tony Moneo:
hello Mr. Moneo, het jy toe met AP gepraat of moet ek n beter aanbod maak hehehe
13 May 2008, 15:53 pm
#254 tight head:
The likes of Baywatch and Botes are indeed unfortunate that they are playing in the time of Burger and Van Heerden (although in my opinion, Baywatch is better than Wikus).
13 May 2008, 15:54 pm
fuzzy
Smith at 8thman ?
13 May 2008, 15:54 pm
247
Really Kanko sucks? lol what an idiotic thing to say. Kanko is the better player, the only thing Spies has over him is pace.
Go look at the matches Kanko has played in and then come back here and say that again. If you have not looked at the matches which I think you have not then stop being a cheapo, get Super sport or something to actually watch matches.
13 May 2008, 15:56 pm
#239 Vetkoek:
Yeah exactly. And this is the same lions team that doesnt bother on focusing how the oposition play, they only look at themselves. read the thread “Lions: Focus on ourselves”.
13 May 2008, 15:56 pm
#239 Vetkoek:
De Villiers I reckon thought he would’nt need a technical advisor having got his high quality assistant coaches. Maybe De Villiers is living the Bill Gates philosophy……..always surround yourself with people thats more clever than you are!
13 May 2008, 15:57 pm
baywatch and botes are both great players but smith, kanko, burger and spies just have that something supernatural…
13 May 2008, 15:58 pm
#259 Vetkoek:
Wikus is not that great especially this year although the quiet bulls pack can also be blamed but when the tight 5 struggle wikus this year has been no where
13 May 2008, 15:58 pm
#263 Isigidi:
They probably ran out of money after getting Muir and Gold to sign on the dotted line and he was all they could afford
13 May 2008, 15:58 pm
#258 MR Lam: Jy sal `n beter aanbod moet maak Lam…
13 May 2008, 15:59 pm
JL1,
NH rugby is not as strong as it should be. There are some good players for sure, but the talent pool, especially in the forwards, is more evenly spread IMO. For instance, I would say that Scotland and Wales have more quality back row forwards than Ireland and England.
Ireland have the better second rows along with Scotland to counter the beasts in SA.
England and Wales have the better props.
Scotland have the best set of scrum halves (and btw, I think Mike Blair is in with a shout of captaining the Lions – he’s a new version of Gary Armstrong) but little else outside the Lamont brothers
England and Wales will be where the inside backs will come from and the outside centre spot is up for grabs seeing that O’Driscoll is getting a bit long in the tooth.
There is enough talent in the 4 nations to put together a good touring squad. If coached well, they will prove a much more worthy adversary than Woodward’s Lions!
What do you think?
13 May 2008, 15:59 pm
#240 crikey_mate_did you see that shark:
how can ypu put Jacques at 13 after just one game? Put Bobo there instead.
13 May 2008, 16:00 pm
#269 stavros:
As good as Bobo has been this year, I reckon he should go with Jacques as well. To my mind, Jacques Fourie is the most underrated 13 in world rugby.
13 May 2008, 16:00 pm
#241 FrenklyMuDeah:
remember what Wales did for Percy. he went ther a boi and came back a man.
13 May 2008, 16:02 pm
jacques single handedly lifted the spirit of a team, that must say something about his presence, and he had one great game…
pluse if we look at the alternatives at the moment, i would not be so comfy going that way… steyn should stay at and make one position his own b4 he is another russel, which is such a great versatile talent that he cant make the team…
13 May 2008, 16:02 pm
#264 crikey_mate_did you see that shark: You unfortunately need the grafters like Botes, Baywatch and Francois Louw there. Without them the glory boys (not saying Kanko, Big Joe etc are glory boys but they tend to get more publicity than the grafters) would have no ball to play with.
13 May 2008, 16:03 pm
#270 Vetkoek:
yes but he’s had less than 85 minutes game time in the past 8 months. that is a worry.
13 May 2008, 16:03 pm
#256 FrenklyMuDeah: Kanko’s old man was also a wing or centre? cant remember?
13 May 2008, 16:04 pm
Cape Town – The Springbok training squad to be announced on Saturday will not include any players involved in the Vodacom Super 14 rugby semi-finals.
Sharks or Stormers players selected in the squad will only be named at the conclusion of their teams’ participation in the tournament.
Springbok coach Peter de Villiers has agreed to the arrangement in deference to requests from the franchises.
13 May 2008, 16:04 pm
Problem area I see is more backline.
Francois Steyn wants to play flyhalf, somebody please explain to him that he needs to play fullback!
13 May 2008, 16:06 pm
#261 RedLion:
Wow wee RedLion
Let me repeat my opinion. Kanko sucks. klaar.
Everytime the two players have gone toe-to-toe with each other……Spies has had little Kankowski burgers for takeaway.
Kankowski compared with Puke Twatson rules…but compared with superman Spies…sucks.
Come now, you must know what Imean when I use the word “sucks”….you do afterall support the suckiest side ever to have played the game!
13 May 2008, 16:06 pm
#269 stavros:
Jacques Fourie was excellent on Saturday in his first game already, the sign of a good player. Bobo lacks pace and is past his prime. Still a good player make no mistake. I’ll take Jacques, the come back kid, any day above Bobo.
13 May 2008, 16:06 pm
#272 crikey_mate_did you see that shark:
mate, thats what cheerleaders are for, not 13s. and if you saw the Lions cheerleaders then you might understand why they were so happy to see Jacque…
13 May 2008, 16:06 pm
#274 stavros:
Agreed, but I think you have to just take a plug on some players and hope for the best. Fourie is one of those players that I would give the luxury of regaining his form against Wales and Italy. If it was NZ I would perhaps think differently.
13 May 2008, 16:07 pm
#271 Stavros
Can’t buy that experience. SA has problem in only looking local, coach at Bulls a good example. Can’t tell me they wouldn’t have benefited more by having foreign coach for year ……….. or sending Ludeke over
13 May 2008, 16:07 pm
#276 asha1:
good call otherwise teh f….ckers relax and don’t play so they don’t get injured, has happened in the past aka bob skinstad
13 May 2008, 16:08 pm
ciao all… the waves are picking up…
and just to make it clear:
K A N K O !
13 May 2008, 16:08 pm
#273 Tony Moneo:
Tony agree 100%.
Most people in the world would agree that Kanko, Schalk and Burger are unbelievable and pick themselves, but the 3 you mention are brilliant players that any team would want.
13 May 2008, 16:08 pm
Play Spies at #8. Play Kanko at outside centre. Remember the call years ago to retread Skinstad as a centre, after he ghosted past Tim Horan? I have seen Kanko take better outside gaps than that one. Hell, I have even seen Kanko take better outside gaps than Jean De Villiers. Not such a foreign idea, really. I believe he played quite a bit at centre during his St. Andrews (Grahamstown) days.
That’s my call. He has the footwork, the acceleration, the hand-off, the step, top-end speed, the strength and size (in spades) and the savvy. When required, he could “hit it up” in the inside-centre channel.
That would scare opposition backlines shitless!
13 May 2008, 16:10 pm
#268 stodders: I say gang up, 4 Nations to beat one nation. It will be a good tour though
13 May 2008, 16:10 pm
#278 St.Petersburgbok:
I thought the bulls were the suckiest side beside lines / cheetahs (cats) they have the kakest Super record you should really take off your blue goggles and actually watch again with open eyes
13 May 2008, 16:11 pm
#278 St.Petersburgbok:
What a fantastically lucid argument? I particularly liked the way you backed up your well researched “he sucks” stance, by not only referencing Watson, but also using the word Puke to draw a correlation between his name and the way you feel about him. Bravo… That was a pure masterstroke.
My 4 year old nephew is struggling with a bully at school… Would you mind if I had him reference your posting?
13 May 2008, 16:11 pm
#285 tight head:
Kanko, Schalk and Juan!!
13 May 2008, 16:11 pm
#278 St.Petersburgbok: Now you’re talking out your ***.
13 May 2008, 16:12 pm
Later all
13 May 2008, 16:12 pm
#279 Isigidi:
you will have to oppertunity to compare the two this saturday. bobo has had a very good season thus far … personally i doubt whether its good enough to get him into the bok set-up again, but you cant get away from the fact that he’s been in good form
or
that a eg player like spies still need a few more games to gain form
or
that someone like pienaar is way off form etc etc etc
to just say someone sucks stinks of prejudice!
13 May 2008, 16:13 pm
#278 St.Petersburgbok: I`d go for Duanne Vermeulen, he`s not as flashy as either Kanko or Spies but he does the basics right and he`s consitent. Spies blows hot and cold and Kanko play when going backwards. There. End of story.
13 May 2008, 16:14 pm
#263 Isigidi:
You have now consistently been beating this drum.
PdV needs help.
Why are you of this conviction?
13 May 2008, 16:14 pm
#288 MR Lam:
line = lion
13 May 2008, 16:15 pm
#275 Gr8ter:
Yes, wing, EP, 1976, Tito Kankowski, with Cheeky Watson on the other wing..
13 May 2008, 16:16 pm
i think Spies could be a revelation…there were 1 or 2 moments against the understrength english touring side where he looked other-worldly.
However Kankowski has been brilliant, clearly the best no 8 in the S14 of all teams.
13 May 2008, 16:17 pm
#297 Pietman:
seriously
maybe it bodes well to make kanko no8 and watson no6
13 May 2008, 16:17 pm
#283 MR Lam:
if only one sa side make it into the play-offs, it may still be quite easy to figure out who the missing players will be!
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