The Bok No 8 debate
13 May 2008
Who should play eighthman for South Africa this season, Ryan Kankowski or Pierre Spies?
Phenomenal and freaky would be good words to describe these two players. Kankowski, who made his Test debut against Wales last November, was probably the top South African player in the first part of 2008 and looked to be a shoo-in to start at the back of the scrum for the Boks this year. That is until Spies, who missed the World Cup after blood clots were discovered on his lungs, made a comeback to the game that exceeded all expectations.
SA Rugby magazine asks two former Bok eighthmen, Wynand Claassen and Gary Teichmann, who they would play this season.
Also in the new issue of SA Rugby magazine, on sale Wednesday:
– In the wake of a brilliant World Cup, Juan Smith remains the Springboks’ most hardened warrior at the frontline. But is it time for him to leave Bloemfontein?
– Peter de Villiers’s attacking ambition suggests that positions 10, 12 and 13 will shoulder greater responsibility in 2008. Former Springbok inside backs Joel Stransky and Hennie le Roux examine the prospective 10-12-13 axis and why it is so crucial to an expansive approach.
– Mismatched teams, poor attendance figures, declining public interest … why Super Rugby is in desperate need of an overhaul
– Marius Joubert talks about losing his place to Jaque Fourie, gaining the respect of his Clermont team-mates, how much certain sections of the South African media irritate him, the guilt of carrying a Springbok contract and not playing, being knifed in the back by Western Province and text messages to Springbok coach Peter de Villiers.
– Nick Mallett on coaching against the Boks in June, the Six Nations, and why the ELVs could destroy rugby as we know it.
– While Wales defence coach Shaun Edwards never gets emotional in front of his players, he is a caring, loyal and deeply spiritual person.
– Wales Grand-Slam-winning captain Ryan Jones has his sights set on the Springboks.
– Former Test centre Jeremy Guscott on Martin Johnson‘s appointment as England manager.
– After the overwhelming success of the Varsity Cup, questions are being asked about the future of the Vodacom Cup and the National Club Championship. We put Saru president Regan Hoskins on the spot, and also speak to Maties and Ikeys coaches about this year’s Varsity Cup.
– Brian Mujati dreams of green and gold.
491 Comments
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13 May 2008, 21:45 pm
8′s on form
Joe van Niekerk,
Willem Alberts
Duane Vermeulen
Ryan Kankowski
Pierre Spies
Luke Watson
Dewald Potgieter
6′s
Heinrich Brussouw
Wikus van Heerden
Schalk Burger
Baywatch Grobbelaar
Luke Watson
7′s
Juan Smith
Jacque Botes
Joe van Niekerk
Francois Louw
Deon Stegmann
again take your picks and makes your choices
13 May 2008, 21:47 pm
Skoppie Yes You really like Joe
Personally, If Skalk is out I would go with.
6. Wikus (grafter)
7. Smith (no debate here)
8. Kanko (huge talent and in form)
Joe on bench maybe plays in 2nd test.
Brussow maybe too.
Hard to leave out Spies.
I know you guys dont like this, (except Wooden Spoon ) but here it is again:
6 Smith
7. Spies
8 Joe or Kanko
Sorry no room for Luke
13 May 2008, 21:50 pm
So what they going to do with Floors, and Lobberts, where they going to find space for them?
13 May 2008, 21:53 pm
#402 CoachPete: Howdy CoachPete
At 6 you need someone like Schalk, Wickus or Luke Watson. A little more nuggety than the big athletic type (Spies, Kanko, Smith) who will get stuck in on the ground at the tackle point. A combination of Smith, Spies and Kanko does not have the right balance.
Number one trio for the boks currently:
8 Kankowski
7 Smith
6 Burger
Are you in the US?
13 May 2008, 21:58 pm
OK Coach if I had to chose in order on brains and balance, then it goes like this
1. Wikus, Luke, Joe
2. Schalk, Juan, Kanko
3. Brussouw, Louw, Vermeulen
4. Baywatch, Botes, Spies
Something like that – top 3 have more savvy than the others, who get progressively more physical.
I know its highly subjective and hypothetical, but one needs to balance physical brawn with a little savvy too, all brawn and no savvy or all savvy and no brawn could be perhaps too much of a good thing or too much of the same, and not get the required result one looks for, its about striking the correct balance.
Joe and Watson might be our most intelligent lateral type thinking players, but not our most physically gifted, so one needs to look to who to combine with who to get the balance of the 3 just right.
13 May 2008, 22:01 pm
Yes I am in US
I like your 3 there if Skalk is fit
13 May 2008, 22:02 pm
Which state? How long you been over there?
13 May 2008, 22:04 pm
I am in No California. Been here for a while since late 80s
13 May 2008, 22:06 pm
How much rugby coverage do you get over there on tv? Any growth in the game out there? Will Americans ever take to the sport do you reckon?
13 May 2008, 22:06 pm
So Skoppie if you take # 2, some brains and lots of brawn, that is going to be the 3 loosies
13 May 2008, 22:08 pm
I don’t classify Burger as a classic fetcher in the mold of George Smith or Phill Waugh or Richie McCaw or Wikus van Heerden / Heinrich Brussouw / Luke Watson, Burger is a demolition man at the breakdown and a target tackler, and a ball carrier, so too Juan Smith great carrier and tackler and line out option, as is Kankowski fundamentally a loose no.8 big ball carrier, Spies more devastating in contact and again a big fast ball carrier, so we do need a hard and rugged to the ball fetcher, a Brussouw perhaps, or a Wikus (who has limited pace but enough savvy and strength), or a Watson who has strength and intelligent savvy.
Big strong and fast ball carriers we have plenty, Smith, Joe, Schalk, Spies, Kanko, Vermeulen, Alberts, its the nuggety fire eater we are a little short on. Maybe an opening for Floors and Watson and Brussouw somewhere in there.
13 May 2008, 22:08 pm
Howzit guys
Getting some news of a sad story…..
Filtering down is a story that one of the Bok WC winners sister was raped?
Kidnappped in the car park of a Cape Town hospital where she was a student
I really miss Africa and it saddens me more when I here things like that.
Going back seems less of an option day by day
13 May 2008, 22:09 pm
Oh I get media zone (Kudu) and Setantas sports which is a feed from Sky in London. So I get all games.
No, for many reasons mainly money, but also hard to break into schools .
US kids really love the game, but Baeball Football soccer and Basket ball coaches in Schools hate rugby.
Also kids lose interest when they dont understand the game and since it not shown of regular sports channels here, they move on.
13 May 2008, 22:10 pm
#412 Flametop: Yeah that story broke on Sunday. I have no idea which player’s sister it was. Terrible. They should publicly castrate rapists.
13 May 2008, 22:10 pm
Yes was that not Skalk’s sister?
13 May 2008, 22:11 pm
I heard from Pietman and Koos I beleive it is Skalla’s sister.
Maybe wrong here but thats what I hear
13 May 2008, 22:14 pm
Coach Pete
That seems to be the rumour
Seems that dad Burger is not a guy to be messed with
SA really needs a good Soccer WC to get the world to see close up the good that Africa has to show.
On my last trip (Feb) even my most “stick with SA..never leave” friends were very negative
Worried me quite a bit
13 May 2008, 22:14 pm
I reckon after a WC is held in Japan, they should think about giving one to Italy and then the US. Both have good stadia and tourist infrastucture. It happened with football in the US in 94 although real growth in football in the US is debatable.
13 May 2008, 22:16 pm
Ja Flametop My brothers say the same, but they keep going .
MY borthers wife was car jacked , gun at her head at their house, near Newlands rugby ground, Geez I could not believe it
13 May 2008, 22:17 pm
#418 wooden spoon:
I can hear it already
“oh my gaad the USA have a lineout……and it’s on the half way line!!!
“the scrum half has the ball….this is so exiting!”
13 May 2008, 22:19 pm
That’s why I’ve left SA. I will go back to visit family and the Kruger Park once in a while, but never felt unsafe once in the 3 years out of SA.
13 May 2008, 22:19 pm
It could work in US, because dollar is so Kuk, and europeans would come over.
There is not much interest
Only the big games would draw crowds, the other games may be 5 – 10 thousand if that.
13 May 2008, 22:19 pm
In a squad of 45 you pick:
Smith,Burger,Kankowski,Spies and Watson atleast. NO Diack and no Vermeulen yet.Rather invest in young locks now than loosies. Nobody ever complained about the size of that English loosy a few years back …oh it was BACK. I dont like the Watson politics but that boy can play ,on the ground and in the open…he is a thinker ,he runs into space (like Kanko and unlike Burger and Smith ,so its a nice mix) and he is always looking to keep the ball alive in the offload…whjich he does vbetter than most. Wikus…give me a break. Danie Tnd Wikus can be backups when injuries start to mount.Itsa great time to get the new boys game time vs Wales.
JDV,Steyn and J.Fourie with atleast one more center to be invested in ….ideas ?
JF looked like he had never been away from the game in his return. perhaps fresh and better !
Habana,Odwa,Akona and JPP.
I would pick Odwa at 14 ahead of JPP right now but perhaps in the Bok squad he will find his form again. The Ndungane’s worth in so many aspects negates the fact that they are a tad slower than some other wings. they look slower than they are and they look for a lot of work. Oh and Chavanga. At the moment its who’se fit and who is gelling well with the Bok squad between Odwa and Chavanga.
Locks,Vic,Bakkies,Muller and Bekker. No VdBerg or Pieterse (retiring soon) ,rather look at Skeate and fondse for the future.
Smit,Bismark and Britz
That’s a start.Im looking at S14 form ,world cup expats and players who complement each other.
13 May 2008, 22:19 pm
#166 wp_boytjie:
You know your rugby, unlike some of the “experts” here on this site.
13 May 2008, 22:19 pm
Oh Ja
Percy and Jantjes
13 May 2008, 22:20 pm
W/S where are you?
13 May 2008, 22:20 pm
#419 CoachPete:
SA really needs the world to come down in 2010 have a great time and meet lots of nice people, drink nice wine, great scenery etc. and tell everybody back home what a great place it is.
The hype and the money will create investment
A bit of gloom needs to be lifted
13 May 2008, 22:21 pm
Lets here your loose trio, Camel?
13 May 2008, 22:21 pm
Long time Flame
Medias not saying who’s sister, downright despicable act of horrendous debauched cowardice
13 May 2008, 22:23 pm
Skoppie I got some e mails from Pietman and Koos and it appears to be Skalla’s sister.
13 May 2008, 22:23 pm
I also agree with WP botjie 166…although I would like to see Van heerden as backup. Agree with Watson as cover for 6 and 8.
Kanko is a great lineout option too.Ofcourse we are looking at Burger being available too.Danie must only be considered if all these guys get injured. Too many other botjies ,even JvN ahead of him.
13 May 2008, 22:24 pm
UK, with another 399,999 Sef Effrikens if the stats are to be believed.
13 May 2008, 22:24 pm
Camel I have,
Skalk (if fit) Wikus if not fit
Smith
Kanko
Sometimes guys just thow out suggestions to get a debate going.
13 May 2008, 22:25 pm
#428 CoachPete: Coach. I agree with ddrek 423 and wp 166, however I think ddrek is maybe a bit harsh on wickus. Not really a lot that I can add to the above.
13 May 2008, 22:27 pm
I think Luke is a good player and as aplayer at 6 or 8 is fine , however I would not select him based on his decisive attitude, which I have heard via many people (2nd hand of course)
13 May 2008, 22:27 pm
sorry devisive
13 May 2008, 22:28 pm
#429 skopskiet:
Skoppy……howzit
No quotas in the new Bokke setup.
Presume the debates are hotter than ever lately?
13 May 2008, 22:31 pm
Coach
I would actually like to meet Luke in person to see for myself. There is nothing wrong with a bit of attitude on the field as long as you get back to earth after the game. Somebody that met him yesterday after the practice told be today that he is a a nice guy, in fact a bit of an introvert off the field.
13 May 2008, 22:33 pm
How would John Smit, Victor Matfield, Bakkies Botha, Butch James, Jaque Fourie, Percy Montgomery, Frans Steyn, Bismark Du Plessis and Fourie Du Preez feel about playing with Luke Watson now?
Do you reckon they will all forget the recent past and initiate him for his second and not first cap? Best of buds.
13 May 2008, 22:34 pm
Yes I cant confirm it but My boet is involved in WP and SA sports and spends some time at SA rugby in Newlands and has heard a few things.
So I am not sure ?
Ok I am off for a bit
Cheers
GO STORMERS
13 May 2008, 22:36 pm
#439 wooden spoon:
I’m sure they would be so relieved to be reconsidered for the Boks that at this point in time they will probably give Luke a big initiation.
13 May 2008, 22:36 pm
#440 CoachPete: The same thing was said when he played for the Sharks. Not to mention Sheeky Cheeky’s influence. Where there’s smoke there’s ALWAYS fire.
13 May 2008, 22:38 pm
#441 CamelToe: Not really. All those players should make the squad. Snor would be silly not to include any of them.
13 May 2008, 22:40 pm
Jeez never would have considered who’s sister, family must be going through tough times – sympathy goes out.
#437 Flametop:
Seems all the speculation says no quotas, lets wait and see after the announcements based on merit and if the politico’s going to start pulling strings or not.
13 May 2008, 22:44 pm
Apparently there are no quotas. But are there targets, or allocations, or allowances?
13 May 2008, 22:45 pm
Have heard a lot about all these divisive stories going around the place, one needs to have first hand experience of any individual to be able to cast certain judgment and not hearsay.
13 May 2008, 22:49 pm
Why don’t you hear such stories about certain other players? The one’s that don’t have storm clouds of controversy constantly above their heads. I repeat. Where there’s smoke there’s always fire.
13 May 2008, 22:51 pm
#444 skopskiet:
From what I have heard…would not like to be one of the perpetrators either
But more importantly I really hope the young lady gets some support and love and help
She’ll need it
13 May 2008, 22:59 pm
Which controversy you referring to, #447 wooden spoon: I only remember the in crowd gang deciding they were not going to initiate someone because coach didn’t pick him, I also remember the self same in crowd gang smirking off a diabolical loss in Brisbane without so much as a I’m sorry for dragging the Bok legacy to an all time low, not a single point scored in anger, and yet every top flight chosen few player was playing that day, with the omission of two, Burger (injured) and Watson (ostracized).
#448 Flametop: Have they actually caught the perpetrators, I’m not up with this sorry news at all?
13 May 2008, 23:09 pm
#449 skopskiet:
I don’t know maybe/probably not…..just heard Dad Burger is not to be messed with
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