Welsh eye Bok scalp
16 Sep 2008
Former Welsh wing Ieuan Evans believes the Springboks will be Wales’ easiest southern hemisphere opposition during the end-of-year tours.
Wales play the Boks on 8 November followed by Canada, Australia and New Zealand – all at the Millennium Stadium on successive weekends. Former Welsh captain Evans believes the world champions present the easiest opportunity for the Six Nations champs to cause an upset over the Tri-Nations teams.
“South Africa is the best chance of a win. Australia are probably the most innovative [of the three] and New Zealand are going to be a handful,” Evans told Scrum V.
He cited player burnout, which is not easing up as most of the Springboks have gone straight from the internationals into Absa Currie Cup action, as a reason to make the Welsh favourites. He also highlighted how the Bok players have struggled to understand Peter de Villiers’s game-plan as an added bonus for the hosts.
“South Africa are still unsure what sort of game they want to play. Also, a lot of their players are looking tired. Butch James has played two years of solid rugby.”
Not even a year after their World Cup triumph and the Boks already seem to have lost their aura of World Champions in the eyes of the northern hemisphere.
410 Comments
16 Sep 2008, 10:20 am
Aha!!!!!! Eerste………….dragons!!!!!
16 Sep 2008, 10:25 am
Stem nogal saam met Evans.
16 Sep 2008, 10:26 am
Evans is wide of the mark I think, Wales will always struggle with the big Bok forwards. Their best chance of a win is against Aus.
16 Sep 2008, 10:35 am
“their aura of World Champions in the eyes of the northern hemisphere”? When was there ever an aura?
16 Sep 2008, 10:35 am
Evans eyes are fixed firmly on our coaching booth at PdV when he makes this statement. I am also hoping our squad is not too experimental when we meet Wales though. Thank goodness for JS being captain!
16 Sep 2008, 10:38 am
Go Canada!
16 Sep 2008, 10:39 am
#6 It is just a game: haha
16 Sep 2008, 10:39 am
yeah, like they had an easy time against us when they came here this year.
16 Sep 2008, 10:45 am
#4 Richie_7: Your team has been achieving grand-slams at will in the northern hemisphere. This is what creates an “aura” of any kind over there. With our new eccentric coach, they will inevitably target us. However, in the history of Union, Wales has been eaten by the Boks. They always seem to have alot to say as well, along the lines of “we have the beating of this Bok team”
16 Sep 2008, 10:46 am
Hmmm, another boyo mouthing off.
Wales will be demolished.
16 Sep 2008, 10:47 am
So Wales are expecting to be whitewashed?
16 Sep 2008, 10:49 am
butch james’ springbok days are over.he won’t make the end of year side and won’t be playing against the lions next year
16 Sep 2008, 10:52 am
butch was part of the reosen why we had such a terrible 3n campaign
16 Sep 2008, 10:52 am
#9 aftermath08:
I don’t believe in aura’s. Respect yes, but you shouldn’t be putting your opponants on pedestals. Your aim should be to smash them every week regardless of what history says
16 Sep 2008, 10:54 am
#13 st.a.t.w: He’s also the reason you beat Wales last time out, kicked 9 from 9 in one game and many penalties in the second.
16 Sep 2008, 10:54 am
#14 Richie_7: I agree, its 15 against 15 when all’s said.
16 Sep 2008, 10:56 am
#16 Big Hit:
Yes, and any team can beat you on the day. Regardless of whether you’re a minnow team, they’re World Champions, or who’s ground you’re playing on.
16 Sep 2008, 10:56 am
Butch needs a LONG rest. But he is still an experienced and efficient player just with alot of burnout. I think he can still play test rugby for another 2 years if he manages his body correctly. Butch isnt a **** player as many people make him out to be.
16 Sep 2008, 10:57 am
#12 st.a.t.w: agree! Great world cup and a Warrior of note, should have retired from int rugby after the WC though!
16 Sep 2008, 10:58 am
#17 Richie_7: Agreed.
16 Sep 2008, 10:58 am
#4 Richie_7: There was an aura but for a very short time. Straight after the 2007 tri nations and end of year game against wales. The aura doesnt compare to new zealands in terms of length but the quality of the boks aura during that time triples what the all blacks had during all four years leading up to the world cup. The boks got respect from everyone during that time. More than the all blacks will ever get.
16 Sep 2008, 10:59 am
#18 aftermath08: Problem is he has contracted himself into oblivion!
16 Sep 2008, 10:59 am
#15 Big Hit: Yes, a phenomenal performance. 100 % ratio, calm and collected and totally in control. It was downhill after that though, he didnt get enough rest.
16 Sep 2008, 11:01 am
#23 aftermath08: He had to play his first games under ELVs after that, not easy to adjust straight away against the ABs in NZ.
16 Sep 2008, 11:02 am
#22 grant10: Jeez yes. Now he has to keep going for Bath!
16 Sep 2008, 11:05 am
#24 Big Hit: Good point.
16 Sep 2008, 11:09 am
#15 Big Hit:
any one could’ve played 10 that day, wales were never gonna win those tests
16 Sep 2008, 11:11 am
#25 aftermath08:
it’s all about the money
16 Sep 2008, 11:11 am
I dont want to moan too much about coaching but that is another reason for the drop in form of butch imo.
1) Too much rugby; tired body
2) Rules switch & staight into tri-nations
3) Average to poor coach; tired & confused mind
16 Sep 2008, 11:12 am
#21 iori Yagami:
Like I said, I don’t believe in auras. No matter who the team or what the title. Respect, yes
16 Sep 2008, 11:14 am
#27 st.a.t.w: they were ahead in the 2nd test after an hour, it was touch and go for a while but Butch kept nudging them ahead.
16 Sep 2008, 11:16 am
#24 Big Hit: Big Hit,
Maybe the ELVs just exposed some of James’ weaknesses? I mean, look at Montgomery. He was in exactly the same boat as James in having had no game time under the ELVs. Yet he rose to the occasion like the professional he is. He proved critics, me included, wrong. He certainly went up in my estimations.
I think James is tired, but that’s his fault for choosing to take the money in the NH and not the rest he probably needs. James is a good player, but he’s not a great one. He is a functional cog in the South African team, who offers alot defensively, but little or nothing offensively.
This year was a blessing in disguise for the Boks and their supporters. Better that they realised James’ limitations in the year before the Lions arrive, rather than after the Lions have left with a series win.
16 Sep 2008, 11:16 am
#28 st.a.t.w: Yeah. His name was worth alot post 2007. Getting back to his quality as a player, look how much the Sharks missed him during the Super 14 this year!
16 Sep 2008, 11:17 am
#4 Richie_7: good question, I would love an answer
16 Sep 2008, 11:18 am
#29 aftermath08: All of the SH teams had to contend with switching sets of laws ths year from pre-3N tests to 3N tests. If James, Matfield, Montgomery and Smit weren’t ready to play under the ELVs, then the coach shouldn’t have played them.
16 Sep 2008, 11:19 am
#32 stodders: If the ELVs exposed some of James’s weaknesses then why was he Man of the Match last week for Bath v Bristol? He also had good games at home for the Boks. Saying he offers little offensively shows a short-sighted knowledge of the game (strangely remniscent of most kiwis who think that if you’re not a good line-breaker you’re not a good attacker), his range of passing and wide game is ahead of most 10s in the world.
16 Sep 2008, 11:19 am
best yai-yine keeps his mouth closed, i think wales have beaten the boks only twice in their entire history, they have never been able to match the Boks physically, Australia yes, South African no.
16 Sep 2008, 11:19 am
#35 stodders: thats down to the coach not the players
16 Sep 2008, 11:20 am
#31 Big Hit: You’re a one man cheer leading squad for Butch James! The man can do no wrong in your eyes.
16 Sep 2008, 11:20 am
#24 Big Hit:
Butch James is I bit overrated IMO. Not in the league of Carter and Wilkinson, not even Gits.
He has got no X-factor nobody fears him and no opponent is making special arrangements to counter him like for instance they need to make for a player like Habanna.
Recently he has became a serious liability for his team.
16 Sep 2008, 11:22 am
#37 cab: They don’t need to beat you blokes physically, just mentally.
A little bit of Welsh flair and some Shane Williams trickery (check out the second test again to see 4 Boks made to look like the keystone cops). Wales also have a decent Kiwi coach, and Kiwi coaches seem to have the wood on your coaching team at the mo
16 Sep 2008, 11:22 am
#38 Big Hit: The lack of fitness was down to the players…
16 Sep 2008, 11:22 am
#40 Namblack: He outplayed Wilkinson and Carter last year, he struggled to make the transition to ELVs for a while but has adjusted accordingly. Habana has been a huge disappointment this year and probably deserves to be dropped for Nokwe.
16 Sep 2008, 11:23 am
#36 Big Hit:
Butch James last match was a bit of a ‘mare…
16 Sep 2008, 11:23 am
#42 stodders: not really, they were fit enough for the competitions in which they were playing. Altho Matfield’s move to second division rugby was questionable.
16 Sep 2008, 11:23 am
#41 stodders:
beat us mentally, come on, its the welsh.
great players is Shane, for a midget.
that kiwi coach saw his gat land badly in SA.
16 Sep 2008, 11:24 am
howdy all!
stodders, how much s14 did you watch last year?
butch has always been a running flyhalf. he was imo the vital cog missing in the sharks backline last year which led to the sharks being close to the top of the table in terms of tries.
sure, he has slowed down and his knees are a problem as is the burnout he is clearly suffering from but i dont buy the view that butch is a plonker who defends his channel and does little more.
his deft touches and passing game are great.
p.s. he also broke barnes in half albeit in a match we lost.
16 Sep 2008, 11:25 am
#44 WP Till I Die: I watched it, he missed his kicks, but he’s not really a consistent goal-kicker and shouldn’t be relied upon as such. I’m not saying the Boks shouldn’t look for other options, i think they should give Earl Rose a couple of games but I think blaming Butch for the 3N is the wrong answer.
16 Sep 2008, 11:25 am
#30 Richie_7: With our transformation coach even Canada might make the same starements in a year’s time. Eveybody respect the AB’s, how can you not – Henry, Hansen and Smith – 3 world class coaches – we have Piet Pink Tie who should be coacing u/13′s on provincial level..
16 Sep 2008, 11:26 am
#48 Big Hit: Earl Rose? Is he your dealer?
16 Sep 2008, 11:26 am
Interesting article
16 Sep 2008, 11:26 am
#46 cab:
SA played a Wales “b” side with a lot of players left at home and just off a 6 nations – tired bodies. That and the fact they’ll be playing in Wales this time with wet cold fiedls, things could be a bit more exciting. But you’re right, doubt they’ll take the Boks
16 Sep 2008, 11:26 am
#47 rangerman: oops, vital cog missing this year!
jpp lead the try scoring tables last year, this year he didnt get a try.
butch has distribution skills that lead to a firing backline.
16 Sep 2008, 11:27 am
#41 stodders: they need to step up physically stodders and Gatland has them doing precisely that
16 Sep 2008, 11:27 am
SA cannot hide their hunger for a brilliant flyhalve its what they always dreamt about since Naas Botha retired.
What they crave for is a hero in that spot. Its why a lot of Saffas are urging selectors to play Steyn at flyhalve, they are longing for the Naas Botha type drop goals again.
16 Sep 2008, 11:27 am
#31 Big Hit:
were’nt all those penalties infront of of the posts.butch james should never have made the test squad this year,he played against carter and gittaue 6 times(3 against each) this year and never outplayed them, and he never will
16 Sep 2008, 11:28 am
#47 rangerman: I watched a fair bit. Butch is functional, but rarely much more. He rarely challenges the defensive line these days, and more often than not his passes are easily read. He does have a decent kicking game, but under the ELVs he has struggled in this aspect too at times.
JdV is the creative fulcrum of the Bok backline.
P.S. your last comment sums him up. Instead of telling me who Butch last broke in half, tell me when he last popped a pass that carved up the opposition, or broke the defensive line with a great step or surge of pace. Truth is, you’ll struggle.
16 Sep 2008, 11:28 am
#52 Richie_7: ja, and NZ played a england developement team.
lets see how they fare at twickers.
16 Sep 2008, 11:28 am
#47 rangerman: great – thats just what you want – a past-it fly half who can break someone in half
never mind the win – just go for the hit
ag – its no wonder SA is in trouble
16 Sep 2008, 11:28 am
the chances of losing to the welsh are about 10-1, only chance of it happening is if PdV chooses an experimental side and/or reverts to expansive strategy in NH and even then the Boks have more attacking options.
Evans is mad, the game to target is australia, whom the Boks annihilated when playing to their potential and the manner which they should, i.e. bosh upfront.
16 Sep 2008, 11:29 am
#56 st.a.t.w: no not all of them a few were wide out. He outplayed Carter last year and Wilkinson and Hernandez for that matter. Carter and Giteau had a season under the ELVs under their belt. Butch had no time playing under the new rules. You say he shouldn’t have made the test squad, so who would you pick at 10?
16 Sep 2008, 11:30 am
#56 st.a.t.w: oh, i dont know about that. his tactical kicking was at the heart of the wallaby demise at the cokeblik.
i agree, when he went wrong, he went wrong big time! like newlands. but he wasnt the only one to blame there. percy and FdP also had a mare with the boot.
16 Sep 2008, 11:30 am
#48 Big Hit: Oh FFS. He is Bath’s kicker. That means he has been given the responsibility, therefore he needs to be reliable. If he didn’t think he could do it, he should have told the Bath coach Meehan “thanks, but no thanks” and the coach could have selected another kicker instead. I’m sure James will take full responsibility for his woeful kicking on the weekend, even if you want to give him a list of excuses.
16 Sep 2008, 11:31 am
#52 Richie_7:
yip and i gave them more respect than was merited when they toured, but old yai-yine here has got up my nose with his comments, these comments must be remembered, motivation and all, goodness knows they’ve been on the receiving end of some immense lessons from the Boks in the past. we nearly put a ton past them a few years back. cheeky chops evans.
16 Sep 2008, 11:33 am
#57 stodders: you’re showing your ignorance here stodders tbh. JDV hasn’t created anything, he rarely passes and never sends it wide before contact, all his runs are on the back of Butch’s distribution or Jacobs creativity. Again you’re falling into the trap of thinking a good linebreaker is a creative attacker, its not the case. As for when he last opened up a defence, he created two tries v Gloucester last week and created many which destroyed Australia.
16 Sep 2008, 11:34 am
#57 stodders: now dont go looking down your nose at the physical aspects of butch’s game stodders.
he has proved time and again that his physicality is an asset as witnessed by the almost complete abscence of any kind of penalties against him for this aspect of his game over the last two years.
his channel is secure but yes, he has slowed down. he is not the plonker you make him out to be and imo if you label him a journeyman you do so in error.
16 Sep 2008, 11:34 am
people like this should be fined for making these comments. like the 6 nations champs were coming here to beat the world champs earlier this year. what he should be saying is wales have no chance against any of the teams
16 Sep 2008, 11:34 am
#54 Big Hit: To beat the Boks, you need to stand up to them physically, but you also need to play with intelligence. It is the blueprint the Wallabies have used with some success for the last few years.
You can’t say the Wallabies have had the bigger, stronger forwards, but they have played with more discipline and accuracy than the Boks at times which has seen them win as many as they have lost in recent times.
If Wales can gain parity at the tackle point and in the set pieces (and it is lineout that is their achilles heel), they have a good chance of putting pressure on the Boks and challenging them to keep their mobile runners from crossing the try line. If they don’t, the Boks will walk over them.
16 Sep 2008, 11:34 am
#63 stodders: Barkley was Bath’s kicker last season and Montgomery was SA’s kicker. Butch has been thrust into a goal-kicking role he’s not cut out for and shouldn’t really be doing. He’s never been more than a 3/5 kicker over a period of games and its no coincidence he played his best rugby when others have the responsibility.
16 Sep 2008, 11:35 am
#65 Big Hit: I don’t count GP rugby against the likes of Willie Walker as good examples.
16 Sep 2008, 11:35 am
#68 stodders: thats basically what Gatland says, and I agree. Gatland hasn’t targeted wins btw, he just wants to challenge them. i think they have a good chance v NZ too.
16 Sep 2008, 11:37 am
#70 stodders:Many times he sent wide balls out at newlands and the Boks broke through only to be turned over at the last moment. You should watch more carefully.
16 Sep 2008, 11:37 am
#63 stodders: go back and watch his silky offloads vs wales or the steal he executed on one of the wales forwards which set the player outside him away for a try.
the “springboks didnt lay running rugby in the wc” bs is a myth man. how many tries per game are acceptable?
the final was just that, a final. the rest of our games were running affairs. with a running flyhalf.
16 Sep 2008, 11:37 am
#58 rangerman:
Pretty damn well I’d think, but lets wait and see
BTW, when last the Boks achieved a grand slam?
16 Sep 2008, 11:38 am
Butch and JdV are both sublime players, in fact the combination of FdP, Butch, JdV has played only a handful of games together with all their injuries – together thats a worldclass combo with each complemening one another.
Butch has lost a bit of sharpness, he needs to be rested. If managed he is an expereinced fallback option for the next 2 years at least. JdV has been in outstanding form. His anticipation is phenomenal, but he also is deceptively fast and has a good turn and change-up for a big guy, making many linebreaks in the 3N. It would be interesting to see a switch of JdV and Jacobs, but they have done well in the combination PdV put them in. I still cant understand how Frans Steyn is on the bench and Jacques Fourie will also be back, both worlclass centers.
16 Sep 2008, 11:39 am
#47 rangerman:
You grasping at straws to make him look good.
“sure, he has slowed down and his knees are a problem as is the burnout he is clearly suffering from ” HaHaHaHA!!!!
“his deft touches and passing game are great.” So what its his job.
“p.s. he also broke barnes in half albeit in a match we lost.” Wel if thats make a flyhalve great i have to agree.
“butch has distribution skills that lead to a firing backline.” When last did a bok backline actually fire, I mean really.
16 Sep 2008, 11:40 am
#57 stodders:
The problem with Butch is that under the ELVs he can’t cope with the 5m rule, he’s too slow. Under the traditional rules this is not a problem as he has always been a bash-em-up type direct flyhalf, but under the ELVs he seems rudderless in all that space.
But definitely not the kind of player you want tackling you, that’s for sure.
I for one would love to see Morne Steyn or Peter Grant being trialled at flyhalf. Both are exciting prospects.
By the way, when did this become a Butch James thread?
16 Sep 2008, 11:41 am
#66 rangerman: I admire Butch’s physical game, but it doesn’t blind me to his weaknesses in other areas. Like I said, he is a functional player.
He was the missing link in the Bok backline that won the world cup. He kicked well for territory and passed at the right times. Most importantly of all, he kept his mistakes to a minimum and played the percentages well.
He has rarely won games for the Boks at international level, but in fairness he has rarely lost games for the Boks at international level. The Boks needed someone like him after the misfiring duo of Jaco vdW and Andre Pretorius, both of whom mixed the sublime with the ridiculous and stunted the Bok backline.
James is someone who can do the basics well without making mistakes to allow for the explosive guys outside him to play. He is a good flyhalf, but he isn’t a great. Just my opinion.
16 Sep 2008, 11:41 am
#74 Richie_7: what are you bringing up grand slams for?
this isnt a ***** size competition richie, i merely stated that england werent as strong as they will be, just as you stated wales werent as strong as they will be when they toured here.
if you arent cut out for reasonable debate then continue as you were.
16 Sep 2008, 11:41 am
#77 WP Till I Die: When Big Hit started his case for the defence
16 Sep 2008, 11:41 am
#73 rangerman: you’re a joker
Wales at home will be full strength
Butch might be good against Samoa, Fiji, USA, inbound touring teams but when it matters, against quality – he is no where
16 Sep 2008, 11:42 am
#76 Namblack:
Butch is past his sell by date. Personally always thought the guy was a bit of a tool with his sloppy high tackles. He likes to think of himself as an enforcer, but he simply takes cheap shots to make up for his lack of talent.
Had some crackers for my Sharkies, but when looking at consistency, he’s been consistently below par
16 Sep 2008, 11:42 am
#79 rangerman:
Rangerman, if you can’t answer a simple question don’t get defensive and change the subject.
16 Sep 2008, 11:42 am
#65 Big Hit:
Whoa. Have you been watching the Springbok matches? Most of our backline tries were created by Jean de Villiers, Adi Jacobs thrives off of playing outside him.
I don’t think you and me have been watching the same games.
16 Sep 2008, 11:42 am
#76 Namblack: uh, three weeks ago at ellis park?
lol, keep it up mate.
16 Sep 2008, 11:44 am
#61 Big Hit:
when the squad was chosen just after the s14 pgrant was the best 10 in the country,unfortunatly he never got areal oppertunity(unlike f steyn who got every oppertunity)to prove himself,so we don’t know if the situation would have been better or wors,hopefully grant will get his chance at the end of the year
#62 rangerman:
agree with you on percy and fdp ,but butch had 4 or 5 shockers in a row
16 Sep 2008, 11:44 am
#47 rangerman: “Burnout” !!!!!!
Go Rangerman – come on you can do better
How much burn-out is his bank account suffering
or
why not rest him from Bok duties – you cant cause theres no one else
16 Sep 2008, 11:44 am
#72 Big Hit: I also saw the ABs reading that the miss pass was coming and had the players there to gang tackle the receiving player. James was too telegraphic in that game.
To be honest, using the Newlands game as an example is a bad idea. It was one of James’ poorest performances this year (primarily because he didn’t have the excuse of being under the weather like he did in NZ).
16 Sep 2008, 11:45 am
#84 WP Till I Die: that’s because Big Hit can only see one man on the pitch – Butch James. The rest are just blurs, so it looks like one man is doing it all
16 Sep 2008, 11:45 am
#81 vindicated:
You really do hate the Springboks, don’t you? You must really hate living and working here?
16 Sep 2008, 11:46 am
#79 rangerman: are you losing it – do you need another break ?
Walk away, have a think, and come back later
16 Sep 2008, 11:46 am
#76 Namblack: how about you suggest an alternative?
#78 stodders: I don’t think anyone said he was a great flyhalf, but he is a very good one and was great last year. The guy has played in 2 Super 14 finals and won a World Cup after all.
16 Sep 2008, 11:47 am
#89 stodders: the cheap shots do you no favours stodders, a sure sign that someone has lost a debate
16 Sep 2008, 11:47 am
#75 cab: Have to disagree. FDP and JdV are sublime players. But sublime payers need players like James around to provide them with solidity consistency. As a combination they work well together because of this.
16 Sep 2008, 11:48 am
I think Peter Grant and Ruan Pienaar are the flyhalves to take over from Butch. Both however need to concentrate on what they do best which is to attack the adv line and Ruan needs to learn to inject some pace onto the ball from a deeper position (he still stands like a scrummie). Both players are the only flyhalves in SA, which do not telegraph their plays, and they will suit PdV’s style. In such a situation, Steyn at 12 provides the boot option.
Ideally, one wants FdP-Butch-JdV playing together regularly and also Januarie-Grant/Pienaar-Steyn running alot of practice drills and games together.
when jacques fourie is fit again there are going to be some real selection conundrums.
16 Sep 2008, 11:48 am
#93 Big Hit: And someone claiming they have won the debate is a clear sign someone is flagging
16 Sep 2008, 11:48 am
#81 vindicated: sublime reasoning from you again. thanks for the input.
#83 Richie_7: richie, when last did the AB’s win a world cup?
see, its silly. now recognise that the AB’s will not be facing a second string england when they tour. just as i recognise that wales will be a far sterner prospect at home. have i said any different?
#78 stodders: fair enough stodders. i have seen the boks lose games when butch has left the field though. two examples would be NZ in durbs in 2007 and england at twickers in 2006. he may have dissapointed in some games during the 3n but then so did players like matfield and habana. that doesnt mean they are plonkers.
16 Sep 2008, 11:49 am
#88 stodders: A couple of overhit kicks aside (FDP did a couple too) he had a good game at Newlands, if the passes were so telegraphed then why not intercepts and why did SA keep breaking the NZ line? SA went down that day as a result of not protecting the ball on the floor not as a result of their 10.
16 Sep 2008, 11:50 am
#93 Big Hit: It’s not a cheap shot really…it’s just a bit of fun. I’m not getting all serious over this. It’s just my opinion vs yours. And i have realised some time ago that our opinions are like chalk and cheese.
16 Sep 2008, 11:50 am
#90 WP Till I Die: no I dont hate the Springboks
What I have an issue with is their fans that talk kuk all days
And by the way – I live here by choice and I love it – thanks for having me
16 Sep 2008, 11:50 am
#86 st.a.t.w:
Don’t worry, mate – PdV likes Grant and a little birdie whispered in my ear that PdV’s thinking is that he wants Grant to be flyhalf at RWC 2011.
EOYT will probably see Grant and Earl Rose being picked as flyhalves.
16 Sep 2008, 11:50 am
#96 stodders: how about you keep it within the discussion then and stop trying to take cheap shots then, too hard?
16 Sep 2008, 11:51 am
#87 vindicated: exactly, there is no-one else at the moment. sad but true. it is about the only position we dont have quality, proven depth in and is such a vital position too.
like prop. hold that, tight five maybe.
16 Sep 2008, 11:51 am
#98 Big Hit: A telegrpahed bad pass can be picked off. A telegraphed good pass can result in the defender getting his man and driving him back behind the advantage line.
I never said James was throwing shocking passes, I just noted that the ABs were reading where he was going to send them at times.
16 Sep 2008, 11:51 am
#97 rangerman:
Nobody’s denying the AB’s will be facing a stronger England side. You’re the one still stuck on the whole WC
16 Sep 2008, 11:52 am
#99 stodders: they’re not really all that different, I just think you don’t look beyond what you see at face value in a rugby match, I too was like this when I was much younger. As you watch more u realise there are other more latent and less noticeable facets to the game.
16 Sep 2008, 11:52 am
#102 Big Hit: Yes Sir, Thankyou Sir, three bags full Sir
16 Sep 2008, 11:53 am
Back to the article, he has a point, the Boks are the weakest of the three SH teams, doubt that the Welsh will win tho…… but……if Helium wants to run from all corners of the park on those heavy NH fields we might just see our arses
16 Sep 2008, 11:53 am
#107 stodders: as long as you know ur place
16 Sep 2008, 11:54 am
#98 Big Hit: James, FDP and Montgomery failed in their job to keep NZ pinned down in their own territory. James failed as flyhalf to control the tempo of the game. Carter didn’t have a brilliant game either, but he showed his class when it mattered for his try. He defended his channel too, passed and kicked well and kept the Boks pinned in their own half where the pressure told in the end.
16 Sep 2008, 11:54 am
#108 Tisme: regardless the celtic teams struggle against the Boks, they can’t match the size/power
16 Sep 2008, 11:54 am
#109 Big Hit: And where would that be?
16 Sep 2008, 11:55 am
#110 stodders: he was told to run it, that was the gameplan. It was only in the last two games the Boks kicked for territory before running the ball.
16 Sep 2008, 11:55 am
#103 rangerman: a lot of your percieved depth remains untested because PdV is still selecting the same tired old carthorses
16 Sep 2008, 11:55 am
#105 Richie_7: lol, i am not stuck on anything. i was illustrating your silly approach to a discussion.
but i do enjoy the banter so bygones.
what do you think of our chances against wales?
16 Sep 2008, 11:57 am
#97 rangerman: I never said James is a plonker. Last time i checked, the dictionary meaning of functional does not equal plonker
16 Sep 2008, 11:57 am
#100 vindicated:
Good to have you, mate. Cape Town’s a wonderful place.
16 Sep 2008, 11:57 am
#115 rangerman:
I think the Boks will beat Wales. It all really depends on the game plan once again (sounding so cliched). On the wet cold fields you can’t be running the ball from everywhere – the Boks need to get back to their forward dominated style and bash the Welsh. Maybe after halftime when they’re far ahead enough they can try some of the flash stuff
16 Sep 2008, 11:57 am
#113 Big Hit: The Boks were kicking for territory in Newlands too, just woefully!
16 Sep 2008, 11:57 am
#114 vindicated: who would you pick at 10 for SA vindi?
16 Sep 2008, 11:58 am
#111 Big Hit: did you see Shane William run through about six Boks on the inbound test
16 Sep 2008, 11:58 am
#114 vindicated: thats true. thank goodness habana got injured or we would never have realised nokwe was capable of scoring four tries against the wallabies.
imagine what other players may be waiting in the wings.
16 Sep 2008, 11:58 am
#119 stodders: they ran alot from inside their own half altho it is true to say a couple of kicks went awry
16 Sep 2008, 11:58 am
#118 Richie_7: Wet, cold fields! Have you visited the Millenium Stadium?
16 Sep 2008, 11:59 am
#123 Big Hit: A couple? Are you a historical revisionist?
16 Sep 2008, 11:59 am
NH rugby is like second division
we will put 50pts on the Welsh
good singers..**** rugby
16 Sep 2008, 11:59 am
#123 Big Hit: I counted at least 5 poor kicks throughtout the match, albeit from from 2 different players – FDP and BJ.
16 Sep 2008, 12:00 pm
#124 stodders:
No, I haven’t
16 Sep 2008, 12:00 pm
#118 Richie_7: they have a roof on their stadium in Wales richie
16 Sep 2008, 12:00 pm
#126 greatest13gerber: I don’t think you’ll post 50. It is the Boks first game on their tour, the Welsh will be pumped and it will be close.
I’d say Boks by 5.
16 Sep 2008, 12:00 pm
#116 stodders: just a question here stodders, do you think michalak or butch would be playing if butch was still at the sharks?
i know who i would choose.
in fact, barring diving dan, giteau and possibly wilko, which side would butch struggle to get into?
scotland?
16 Sep 2008, 12:01 pm
#120 Big Hit: Peter Grant
16 Sep 2008, 12:01 pm
#126 greatest13gerber: its not 1998 Gerber, this will be a tough game, altho i do expect Boks to prevail
16 Sep 2008, 12:01 pm
#128 Richie_7: See Big Hit’s reply at 129. They have a roof. It is NEVER wet in the Millenium Stadium. The welsh don’t like wet weather because it takes away their strengths – passing and offloading out of contact.
16 Sep 2008, 12:02 pm
#101 WP Till I Die:
i see the injury break has’nt affected his play also
16 Sep 2008, 12:02 pm
#134 stodders:
Yes, but surely their fields are nowhere near Loftus, Bloemfontein, or Ellis Park dry?
16 Sep 2008, 12:03 pm
#131 rangerman: I would chose James because Michalak is a mercurial flake. I prefer a flyhalf who can dictate the tempo and allow his outside backs to perform over and above a player capable of magic one minute and disaster the next.
16 Sep 2008, 12:03 pm
#132 vindicated: I think he’ll get the nod for the tour altho he wouldn’t be my choice (rose or m.steyn) but I guess we’ll see what his standard is.
16 Sep 2008, 12:04 pm
#118 Richie_7: i think it will be a cracker game as the welsh have imo always personified a running approach to the game, along with the french.
but i am not a believer in the medias interpretation of PdV’s gameplan at all. i dont think we executed the gameplan or finished off scoring opportunities that we created. it wasnt a case of headless-chicken rugby. thats media spin.
16 Sep 2008, 12:04 pm
#122 rangerman: How much more proof do you need before you realise the Aussies didnt really turn for the Ellis Park game
16 Sep 2008, 12:05 pm
#131 rangerman: James would stuggle to get into NZ, Oz, Argentina and England 1st XVs.
Considering that only leaves Wales, France, Italy, Ireland and Scotland (just) as the other main rugby nations in the world, it says that he is a good player, but he’s not a great one.
16 Sep 2008, 12:05 pm
#137 stodders: Stodders did u see Wilko’s back to form? setting up nicely for a showdown with one DC. Hit a 45m drop-goal off his wrong foot
16 Sep 2008, 12:05 pm
#139 rangerman:
Yes, the media always seems to blow things out of proportion. Perhaps they should write their articles DURING the game instead of 5 HOURS AFTER the game – that way they can be more accurate rather than trying to remember certain instances
16 Sep 2008, 12:06 pm
#127 stodders:
What was BJ Botha doing there?
16 Sep 2008, 12:06 pm
Hope we take a good team to NH and not just youngsters but some senior players too.
16 Sep 2008, 12:06 pm
#137 stodders: well thats answer enough for me then.
16 Sep 2008, 12:07 pm
#142 Big Hit: I mentioned it on a post to you on another thread. I appreciated more his offload for a Newcastle try as he got smashed in the tackle . It was a brillaint piece of skill, and suggests to me that if injury doesn’t hit him again, we may well see the old Jonny once again. His match up with Carter is mouth watering.
16 Sep 2008, 12:08 pm
#141 stodders: Actually I think he’d make it for England based on his GP performances for Bath, but we like a goalkicker at 10.
16 Sep 2008, 12:08 pm
#92 Big Hit:
Difficult to suggest an alternative because of lack of experience but i will start playing Pienaar more regularly and also give Morne Steyn a chance.
I do not rate Grant.
I also think Frans Steyn is a fullback not a flyhalve.
16 Sep 2008, 12:08 pm
#144 WP Till I Die: Don’t be a plonker
16 Sep 2008, 12:08 pm
#137 stodders:
Did you just describe Mischalak or Steyn?
16 Sep 2008, 12:08 pm
#137 stodders: a la Carlos Spencer
16 Sep 2008, 12:09 pm
#147 stodders: I didn’t notice your post on the other thread. Yes, its pretty exciting, just hope he holds it together for the AIs. Dan’s gonna get outplay and smashed
16 Sep 2008, 12:10 pm
#149 Namblack: I think Steyn is a 12 but agree with M.Steyn selection. Not sure we’ll ever see Pienaar at 10 again.
16 Sep 2008, 12:10 pm
#140 vindicated: uhm, i need no more proof. i saw the scoreboard.
shameful. how much do they pay that bunch?
#141 stodders: ha! i dangled hernandez out there and you snapped it up. judging by the last time the two sides met at full strength (wc, right after they beat france who beat……ag, you know) butch emerges as the top dog. hernandez looked bad because butch made him look bad.
sadly butch was made to look the same by diving dan and giteau. so he is middle tier, but thats still pretty damn good.
16 Sep 2008, 12:10 pm
#148 Big Hit: Not for me. I think Hodgson is a better flyhalf in the GP, he’s just sh*t at international level.
Cipriani was also a better 10 last year than James, as was evidenced by Wasps picking up the GP title at Twickers.
Andy Goode is in the Butch James style of player. Functional.
16 Sep 2008, 12:11 pm
#138 Big Hit:
another province hater i see
16 Sep 2008, 12:11 pm
#152 vindicated: Spencer should have been a fullback…I would have chosen Mehrtens every day over Carlos, and I enjoy watching Carlos.
16 Sep 2008, 12:12 pm
#155 rangerman: just keeping it in perspective – I saw the socreboards at Durban and Subiaco as well
16 Sep 2008, 12:13 pm
#156 stodders: Cipriani got dropped by McGeechan for a game or two for Walder, overreliant on attack and not using his tactical brain. Andy Goode actually comfortably outplayed him. Hodgson was good its true but he has no defence.
16 Sep 2008, 12:13 pm
#155 rangerman: Hernandez looked bad because the Bok pack smashed the Argies in certain periods of that game. If you put Hernandez in the Bok team, I think you’d be quite surprised at how good Hernandez is. He’s not in the league of Carter or a fully fit Wilkinson yet, but he could make it there soon.
16 Sep 2008, 12:14 pm
#159 vindicated: ja, but at subiaco the boks turned up, they were simply outplayed.
now if the wallabies “didnt turn up at ellis park” that speaks volumes about their pride.
16 Sep 2008, 12:15 pm
#160 Big Hit: True, but McGeechan recalled Cipriani because of his game breaking abilities.
Hodgson doesn’t have good defence, you’re right, but in the GP he has been carving up defences and setting his backline away better than any other flyhalf for some time now. He’s lucky that Sale have a good defensive backrow that keeps him out of trouble most of the time.
16 Sep 2008, 12:17 pm
#163 stodders: Hodgson has started the season with a bang, if only he could tackle he’d be very good. I agree that Hernandez is underrated by some on here based on his semi-final performance, he’s already as good as Wilkinson and Carter for my money.
16 Sep 2008, 12:17 pm
#161 stodders: cmon, the argies tight five didnt get smashed in that game?
they were solid and their competition at the breakdown was outstanding.
but a great flyhalf functions well even behind a losing pack. no, hernandez was outplayed by butch and i saw the fear in his eyes on a few occasions. like when he couldnt catch the ball.
16 Sep 2008, 12:18 pm
Hodgeson has his moments, the best test he ever played was the men v boys test when he carved the boks up a bit at twickenham. the worst test he played was the recent one’s against the ABs, except the 12 that was selected did not complement defensively at all.
Hernandez is an outsntanding football, skily skills including a great side-flip pass this weekend, but not really a master tactician or a general at 10, does not have a great kicking game either.
carter’s the best and then there’s daylight on current form.
16 Sep 2008, 12:18 pm
#157 st.a.t.w: I’d have Burger, Monty and JDV (wing) in the side, so no I’m not.
16 Sep 2008, 12:18 pm
#166 cab: agreed.
16 Sep 2008, 12:19 pm
#166 cab: When was the men v boys test? 2004? I think a 12 shouldn’t have to complement the 10 defensively, a 10 should be capable of holding his own.
16 Sep 2008, 12:20 pm
#155 rangerman:
I don’t think Giteau is as good a 10 as some make out. He can’t control a game with his boot yet like Carter and James and although he tackles well, teams can make good yardage through his channel. He also struggles sometimes to consistently make the split second decisions that a top flyhalf needs to. I still think the extra space and time at 12 suits his game better and allows his brilliant footwork and passing abilities to come to the fore.
James would struggle to make the Wallaby team because he isn’t creative enough. It is the Wallaby style to have their playmaker at 10, not 12.
16 Sep 2008, 12:21 pm
#164 Big Hit: He isn’t for mine, because he hasn’t yet produced against a top SH team, and like it or not, they are still the benchmark.
16 Sep 2008, 12:21 pm
think it was JW who said there’s no such thing as a NZ B side, the closest you come to it is when McCaw and Carter are not playing, think thats very true.
in fact, i dont believe mccaw was playing in our win in nz. it was a very green-looking side generally, henry tightened up as comp went on.
16 Sep 2008, 12:21 pm
#130 stodders:
same old story..they be pumped for first half then crumble under the X factor powers of likes of Steyn, Spies, Kankowski
McGeechan though will be watching these games with an eye on Lions for next year. Put money on him building his test side around a fit Wilkinson..with Cipriani at 12 or 15..mark my word!
16 Sep 2008, 12:22 pm
#170 stodders: I agree with you re. Giteau, some are getting carried away based on his running ability, there’s more to a 10 than that. He’ll improve though and will be great in a season or two. Its hard to know whether James would make it for the Wallabies, I can think of reasons for and against.
16 Sep 2008, 12:25 pm
#166 cab: Agree with you cab. Carter on current form has everything in his game, whereas his peers have too many flaws in their overall skillset to challenge him.
I’d say Wilkinson if he can get back to full form would pose Carter his biggest threat, but their styles are very different. I am most interested to see how Wilkinson looks to defend Carter. James has shown that if you can get up into Carter’s face you can disrupt him, but Carter has also shown at different times that he can slip through those sort of challenges. Wilkinson prefers the more direct flyhalves running down his channels. He sometimes struggles against more balanced runners, i.e. Carter, Giteau.
16 Sep 2008, 12:26 pm
#174 Big Hit:
james would never make the cut for Wallabies..he is like a slow tank who can kick. Think Rod Kafer.
Barnes, Gitau, Beale, Cooper..these guys have far more variety and x factor to their games. Andre Pretorius fit will be back to reclaim his throne.
16 Sep 2008, 12:27 pm
#174 Big Hit: I think the biggest reasons against are that he doesn’t challenge the gain line enough or is creative enough to be an Australian 10. If James were playing in the 80s with Lynagh, he may well have had a shout. But the Wallabies have gotten used to Larkham style of 10, and James is not that type of 10.
16 Sep 2008, 12:27 pm
#169 Big Hit:
cant remember if it was 2004 or 2005, i was at the stadium with my brother and was convinced SA could win that year, but were annihilated. agree on your 10 holding his own, but if he is very talented, then got to make a plan, i’d use giteau as an example, but he holds his own. SA had andre pretorius, who was very talented, but always felt he needed a big 12 alongside him and alot of cover from Schalk. in fact i think SA used to purposefully try and rush from the outside in so that Burger could take them down in this channel. made me laugh, old schalk, flinging himself at everything that moved.
16 Sep 2008, 12:27 pm
#176 greatest13gerber: lol, pretorius will sadly probably never play for the boks again.
16 Sep 2008, 12:28 pm
Okay, and by easy he means only losing by 40?
16 Sep 2008, 12:28 pm
#173 greatest13gerber: Same old story as 1998?
16 Sep 2008, 12:29 pm
#167 Big Hit:
whyt on earth would you put jdv on the wing,let me guess to find a spot for francois steyn
16 Sep 2008, 12:31 pm
#175 stodders:
of course you’d agree, you are a new zealander by heart.
wilkinson had the best mental ability of any player i have seen. i dont think he could boot the ball as far as nice, or was as deft at controlling a game, but definitely one of the best flyhalves ever. unfortunately he is too injury prone, if one player can come back its him, but too many injuries, out too long, starting too unravel.
16 Sep 2008, 12:32 pm
#175 stodders:
You shut Carter down by putting him under pressure. That means you need a very brash in-your-face flyhalf and some quick loosies tearing down on him at every opportunity – but he has improved in this area the last few years, you’re quite right that Carter sometimes manages to slip past challenges like that.
It was clear to see that the team orders for the Boks on the overseas leg of the Tri-Nations was “Get Carter”.
16 Sep 2008, 12:32 pm
#167 Big Hit: You are a bit confused. It is Bekker that hangs around on the wing. Not Schalk.
16 Sep 2008, 12:32 pm
#178 cab: A bit like Kronfeld/McCaw covering across to cover Mehrtens for the Abs/Crusaders. It did get to the point though where even a very tactical flyhalf like Mehrtens became a liability and his coaches moved him back to flyhalf and Leon MacDonald to defend the 10 channel from set pieces.
16 Sep 2008, 12:33 pm
#183 cab:
Best mental ability. How can you judge that?
16 Sep 2008, 12:33 pm
#176 greatest13gerber: I reckon Pretorius would be a pretty good 10 now if he was fit with greater maturity to his game, he was a headless chicken at one point
#182 st.a.t.w: because he doesn’t distribute and bring the outside backs into play, thats why Habana never gets the ball, I’d have Steyn or Grant at 12.
#175 stodders: Carter doesn’t have Jonny’s defence
16 Sep 2008, 12:37 pm
#186 stodders:
Kronfeld, now that was a class player. Always played offsides tho, like McCaw they have alot in common.
#187 stodders:
His powers of concentration were phenomenal, it was self-evident. I should imagine any coach that has ever coached him believes the only thing in JW’s mind is rugby, winning and how to improve his own game.
16 Sep 2008, 12:37 pm
#183 cab: Wilkinson is an old style flyhalf in the mould of Porta, Fox, Lynagh and ol’ Naas in the way he plays the game. more of kicker/organiser than an incisive runner/creator.
Where he reinvigorated flyhalf play was in his crunching defence. I say reinvigorated, because “Lem” Honnibal was the first bone crushing 10 I remember seeing.
16 Sep 2008, 12:37 pm
#187 stodders:
1998 wasn’t a bad yr
#181 stodders:
lol how the fck do you judge that?..
Carter and Gitau are equal in my book. Carter rates Wilkinson better then himself and the 10 he looks up to.
16 Sep 2008, 12:38 pm
#188 Big Hit: Jonny doesn’t have Carter’s attack.
16 Sep 2008, 12:38 pm
#188 Big Hit:
Big Hit, again I am appalled at your lack of respect for Jean de Villiers.
He has created the majority of tries scored by South Africa in this Tri-Nations; and from a defensive point of view, his contribution in organising the backline is vital.
Expect to see the backline struggle if you move Jean to wing and bring Frans Steyn in at 12. Frans Steyn at inside centre? Now there’s someone that does not distribute.
16 Sep 2008, 12:38 pm
#190 stodders: you’re talking about the injury prone wilkinson, the fully fit wilkinson was a tremendous runner, through the gap and offload in a flash
16 Sep 2008, 12:38 pm
#191 greatest13gerber: And that’s fair. Wilkinson has won a world cup, and Carter is a humble sort of chap.
16 Sep 2008, 12:39 pm
#188 Big Hit: The current Jonny doesn’t have the old Jonny’s defence either
16 Sep 2008, 12:40 pm
#188 Big Hit
it seems to me that you don’t know alot about rugby,some of the comments you make are beyond ridiculous
16 Sep 2008, 12:40 pm
#193 WP Till I Die: Why is moving a player to the wing a demotion? it will actually capitalise on his strengths as more ball will go to the wing with a distributing inside centre. Its a myth to say Steyn does not distribute whilst at IC, he can be a selfish player but when he plays 12 he uses his outside men more than JDV. What about Grant for 12?
16 Sep 2008, 12:41 pm
#196 stodders: no but its still pretty good, he can still smash someone
16 Sep 2008, 12:41 pm
seems like a very nice oke kronfeld, i always thought he must be a bit dom with the way he used to play, fantastic mullet-head, but was watching a doccie where he went to go play in a world side against tonga for the new king’s coronation. quite a charatcer.
16 Sep 2008, 12:42 pm
#194 Big Hit: Wilkinson is a very good flyhalf, but let’s not b*llshit each other here. One of his flaws is his lack of pace and his lack of natural talent offensively. He is not a natural runner like say a Larkham or a Carter.
He is a manufactured flyhalf. I’ve read many articles by Wilkinson himself describing how he has sought to teach himself how to be more instinctive. I have much respect for him in improving this aspect of his game.
16 Sep 2008, 12:42 pm
#200 cab: kronfeld is an eco-warrior
16 Sep 2008, 12:42 pm
#199 Big Hit: Only if he can get there in time
16 Sep 2008, 12:43 pm
#201 stodders: teaching instinct?
16 Sep 2008, 12:43 pm
#198 Big Hit: Why not play Steyn on the wing. Least amount of disruption then.
16 Sep 2008, 12:44 pm
#201 stodders: Lack of pace over the longer distance yes, but not over the first few yards. In 2001-03 he made more linebreaks than any other player but offloaded immediately. I don’t think there’s any such thing as a manufactured player, you do what you do on the field and thats it. Wilko gets the job done, over and over again.
16 Sep 2008, 12:44 pm
At the beginning of the Tri-nations it was said that South- Africa had the most settled team out of the three Southern Hemisphere super powers. I was stunned.
New Zealand retained all their coaching staff that they have had since 2004. They boasted to the world that they can win the World Cup with two teams, yes, a lot of their top players have gone overseas, but so have ours. And most of the players still remaining are the same players that ran the world ragged over the last couple of years. Saying that the All Blacks was the most unsettled team out of the three is absolute rubbish. Same coaching staff, and 80% of the players that have been part of their squad over the last few years. They should have taken the Tri-nations, and deservedly they did.
Australia appointed probably the worlds best coach, and with this comes the confidence of numorous Super 12/14 trophy’s and experience. No-one in world rugby can doubt his ability, not even the players. Having a coach of his ability automatically suggests that he will use Aus’s traditional strong points and build around it. That’s what he did, and that’s why they came second. They also have a new coach, it will take time to get used to.
Yes, we are the World Champions – but we had a total coaching change, none of the coaching staff involved in the WC was retained to help assist the new coaches. Settled? No. New game plan, new structures. It’s rediculous saying that we were the most settled squad. Our coach’s ability is still questioned. What did he achieve prior to the appointment of Springbok coach? He vowed to make us play a different game than to that of our traditional strengths. And I guarentee you that it was not just the public and press questioning this, but the players too.
We were the most unsettled team out of the three, and we still are. We were heading for the wooden spooners before the first match in Wellington was played.
16 Sep 2008, 12:44 pm
#190 stodders:
Wilkinson is the most intelligent playmaker around today. Reminds me of Lynach and Fox indeed but has more alround ability.
Naas is the greatest kicker of the ball I have ever seen. Complete master tactician when it came to controlling the game with his boot.
never seen a 10 dominate games like Naas..then Larkham came along and really revolutionalized the 10 game with his accurate passing game and slight of hand. Simply freakish
16 Sep 2008, 12:44 pm
#205 stodders: because the current centres don’t use the wingers
16 Sep 2008, 12:47 pm
#204 rangerman: OK, not instinctive in the sense of making the right play, but more instrinctive as in improving peripheral vision.
When Jason Robinson crossed over from League, Wilkinson asked to see his training regime to see if he could make train himself to be more elusive. One of the training sessions was in a gym with a load of swinging bags. Wilkinson’s challenge was to get from one side of the gym to the other without being knocked over. It was sort of medieval. Wilkinson used it to improve his balance and peripheral vision. You can see it when he spins out of tackles as the defender approaches.
16 Sep 2008, 12:47 pm
#190 stodders:
Yip, Henry “Lem” Honiball, the modest banana farmer from Bergville – he was an absolutely destructor of opposing players’ bodies. Launching himself like an assegai being thrown, you could usually feel his tackles in the stands even, that’s how hard he went in.
16 Sep 2008, 12:48 pm
actually guys like mccaw and kronfeld, who aren’t necessarily the biggest, compared to the modern forward, just show how much of the game is still down to attitude and heart. these guys put their bodies in the most compromising situations when over the ball and are likely to be cleaned out from all angles, yet their bodies are like pieces of old iron, just keep taking the punishment.
This is for me the real difference with respect to our opensiders, not so much the size but the attitude which is to take punishment for the team, they are the exact opposite of flash players. Niel Back, Phil Waugh, George Betsen, Marty Holah and George Smith all the same. Playing right to the ball, very tight, but into everything.
Our guys prefer a linking role and do not compete for the ball, instead they try and take out the player rather than playing to the ball at the expense of a big cleanout which would hurt the pride. McCaw could not care less, he is simply back into the next breakdown. Great spirit and attitude.
16 Sep 2008, 12:50 pm
#198 Big Hit:
Now that sounds like an interesting prospect, I might agree with you there – Peter Grant inside, Adi Jacobs outside, and Jean de Villiers on the right wing with Conrad Jantjes at the back.
The mouth waters at the prospect of a combination like that…
16 Sep 2008, 12:50 pm
#211 WP Till I Die:
Henry “Lem” Honiball was quite a strange and enigmatic character in rugby circles. Even when he scored tries he always had the same bland expression on his face.
an enigma
16 Sep 2008, 12:50 pm
#210 stodders: is that like nature nurturing you?
no mate, i know what you mean.
16 Sep 2008, 12:50 pm
#206 Big Hit: Any other player in the NH.
Of course there is such a thing as a manufactured player. Carter is manufactured too in some ways, but he is a more natural runner than Wilkinson, and it shows in the way he plays the game. I imagine it also mainly because In Nz that aspect of his game was nurtured better than wilkinson’s was in England.
Mark Ella was the most natural running/passing flyhalf I have ever seen, and he could do things with the ball that even the Welsh greats would have marvelled at.
16 Sep 2008, 12:51 pm
#212 cab: do Sa have a player like that? Deysel, Watson or Van Heerden?
16 Sep 2008, 12:52 pm
#210 stodders:
Wilkinson training methods and perfectism is legend.
200 place kicks in a trainng session?..WTF?
16 Sep 2008, 12:53 pm
#216 stodders: sorry i don’t get the idea that someone is manufactured, they’re humans not machines
the only thing more natural about Carter than Wilkinson is that he’s quicker over the longer distance, same as Charlie Hodgson.
16 Sep 2008, 12:53 pm
#218 greatest13gerber: What’s your take on Carter? Take off your anti-Kiwi bias for a mo.
16 Sep 2008, 12:54 pm
#219 Big Hit: Machines are assembled by humans/machines, rugby players are assembled by coaches. Manufactured.
16 Sep 2008, 12:54 pm
#213 WP Till I Die: yeah, if PDV is intent on playing a wide game those guys could really do a job on the opposition if given the ball in space
16 Sep 2008, 12:55 pm
#190 stodders:
Honiball, now you mention another great player.
i think mallett was a very good coach, but i always felt SA should have added a 3rd world cup crown in 99 if had not dropped honiball for de beer, this was for me more important than the teichman dropping, but there was talk of injury and de beer did out-droppie england, still i felt it was a bad call. Honiball excelled to win 3rd spot by beating the ABs. we has the wood on that oz team, oh well.
16 Sep 2008, 12:55 pm
playing the best 12 in the world on the wing is the stupidist thing i’ve ever heard
16 Sep 2008, 12:55 pm
#221 stodders: Wilkinson wasn’t assembled by a coach he’s not T1000
16 Sep 2008, 12:55 pm
#214 greatest13gerber:
My uncle is his doctor there in Bergville, Henry still farms bananas there. A very humble, quiet-spoken man. I have amazing respect for Honiball.
16 Sep 2008, 12:55 pm
#217 Big Hit:
Baywatch from the Lions is a prime example of what cab is saying. He’s not as big and strong as McCaw, but play very similar.
16 Sep 2008, 12:56 pm
#219 Big Hit: I would say that Carter has more of a tendency to try to take the gap. Maybe that is just because he has the speed to take advantage of it, or maybe that is because the teams that he plays in encourage it more.
16 Sep 2008, 12:57 pm
#223 cab: You can take comfort from something. De Beer left a lasting impression on another player with his drop goal exploits – Jonny Wilkinson.
16 Sep 2008, 12:58 pm
#228 stodders: Wilkinson in the past year hasn’t looked interested in taking the gap, mostly I think because he was playing injured but also because the England forwards provided nothing but slow ball. But in his last two games for the Falcons he’s started to make breaks again. The challenge from Cipriani appears to have reawoken his attacking instincts which can only be a good thing. I see Kelly Brook is rehabilitating Danny’s foot
16 Sep 2008, 12:58 pm
#225 Big Hit:
Jonny Wilkinson is actually a highly-classified MI6 project.
Rumours abound that David Beckham was built by the same shadowy group.
16 Sep 2008, 12:58 pm
#188 Big Hit:
“Carter doesn`t have Johnny`s defense” – I cant agree. I have seen Carter making crucial tackles when AB`s are defending but you will not notice unless you remove your blinkers.
Also this thing about playing on your opponenst face is BS you can only do that if your opponent is struggling usually when the the forwards are on the back foot all the time and that does not happen a lot with the AB`s. Its not something you decide to do or not to do upfront.
I can remember that 2005 game at Newlands was a case in point, the boks still cannot forget it till this day. It shows how long ago they actually managed to dominate a game against the AB`s.
16 Sep 2008, 12:59 pm
#229 stodders: man they were like mortar bombs they just kept coming and there was nothing anyone could do about it
16 Sep 2008, 12:59 pm
#223 cab: I have to say, the tactics that day were one of the best coaching jobs I have seen from a team. England had no answer whatsoever to what the Boks, and De Beer, were doing to them. I remember sitting watching it and asking myself if it was really happening. It was truly surreal!
16 Sep 2008, 13:00 pm
Honiball had Greenwood’s build, very tall for backs, wirey and strong.
Honiball had a massive heart tho, brilliant player, actually i think those were the days when they had another chiropracter in the backline, pieter muller was about as close to brian lima as we came, in the old days i think it was mannetjies roux that used to fly into tackles…difference with Honiball, like Os, all their tackles were low and fair, but helluva bonejarring, literally drove players back and capable of changing a whole match.
16 Sep 2008, 13:00 pm
#234 stodders: Wilkinson didn’t start that game though, Paul Grayson did. Wilkinson had a poor goalkicking performance v the ABs in the pool game and Grayson was preferred.
16 Sep 2008, 13:01 pm
#235 cab: yeah, the Boks had real hard backs in the 90s, a really physical side
16 Sep 2008, 13:01 pm
I can’t see Wilkinson and Carter being compared. Wilkonson was great, but Carter is phenomenal. He’s in a class of his own. He’s going to be the best FH the world has ever seen.
16 Sep 2008, 13:02 pm
#232 Namblack: Oh come on. Don’t be a plonker. Carter is secure on defence, but he doesn’t rock defenders back in the tackle like Wilkinson did in his prime.
I have to say though, Wilkinson didn’t effect as many turnovers in the tackle, or get up to contest the ball as Carter does. Different tackling styles, but both are effective in their way.
16 Sep 2008, 13:02 pm
#220 stodders:
Dan Carter is smooth as silk. Seems to have all the time in the world. Does not shine as much as Gitau but his ability to create opportunites is better then anyone esle.
Carter, Gitau, Wilkinson
I don’t see anyone esle getting close to these three.
16 Sep 2008, 13:03 pm
#231 WP Till I Die: Wilko got the best left boot, Beckham got the right
16 Sep 2008, 13:03 pm
#236 Big Hit: I didn’t say he played. But Wilkinson must have learned alot about keeping the scoreboard ticking and the pressure it puts on the opposition (as did Woodward)
16 Sep 2008, 13:04 pm
#240 greatest13gerber: Cipriani will make it, not yet, but in a season or two. He arguably already has Carter’s running ability just has to add the tactical nous.
16 Sep 2008, 13:04 pm
#238 johnnybravo: Unless injury forces him to retire early, he’ll have overtake Wilkinson’s points scoring record. All those 5 pointers will be the difference
16 Sep 2008, 13:05 pm
#224 st.a.t.w:
Exactly. To make it even worse is that they want to replace him with one of the most erratic backs in SA. There is just no logic in it.
16 Sep 2008, 13:05 pm
#234 stodders:
hardest fairest tacklers, who u reckon?
i go 1. Os 2. Willy O 3. Collins
from back, no question, no better technique than Honiball.
16 Sep 2008, 13:06 pm
#226 WP Till I Die:
Henry Honiball, I too respect. Very erractic sometimes and unusual player but everything said about his defence is spot on. If his goal kicking was better, he would have shone more. Compared to Stransky and rest, Honiball is far the best flyhalf we had since Naas retired.
16 Sep 2008, 13:07 pm
#245 Robzim: I put Grant at 12 either, just someone who gets the ball wide.
#246 cab: Lima
16 Sep 2008, 13:07 pm
#244 stodders:
If only we could have a Carter. We would be untouchable.
16 Sep 2008, 13:07 pm
#241 Big Hit:
Apparently Gordon Brown was also “manufactured”.
He is run by Queen Lizzie via remote.
16 Sep 2008, 13:08 pm
#246 cab: Best tap tackle – Gary Armstrong
Hardest, fairest tackler (the alternative selection) – Scott Gibbs, Jason White, Trevor Leota.
16 Sep 2008, 13:09 pm
#249 johnnybravo: not if the forwards kept getting turned over
#250 WP Till I Die: it must be broken then because he’s not doing too well
16 Sep 2008, 13:09 pm
#243 Big Hit:
put money on it. Cipriani will play 12 or 15(likely) next yr for the Lions.
15.Cipriani
14.Williams
13.O’Driscoll
12.Flood
11.Lamont
10.Wilkinson
09.Blair
possible Lions test XV?
16 Sep 2008, 13:09 pm
#248 Big Hit:
lol, Lima’s tackles were more like execution’s, never seen anything like it.
i thought his tackle on a young hougaardt were horror events, but if u look at what he attempted on AP in the world cup, i aint seen anything like it.
16 Sep 2008, 13:09 pm
#246 cab: It has to be Scott Gibbs. Just ask Os
16 Sep 2008, 13:10 pm
#251 stodders: White’s probably the hardest tackler ever given his size (maybe Ox du randt). But he doesn’t do it consistently.
16 Sep 2008, 13:10 pm
#249 johnnybravo:
I still believe that Morne Steyn is our answer at 10. He’s the most rounded FH in the country. He just needs to work on his goalkicking. a Few sessions with Monty and it’ll be sorted.
16 Sep 2008, 13:11 pm
#251 stodders:
Scott Gibbs was an immensely hard running centre, but tackler, not so sure.
Jason White is very physical, but not sure he really piledrove ppl back like the 3 i listed.
Leota made some huge hit, before his gut got the better of him, was at the cheetahs at one stage with ollie le roux, bejesus what a frontrow,
16 Sep 2008, 13:12 pm
#255 stodders:
I second that. Scott Gibbs was hard for a little fella
16 Sep 2008, 13:13 pm
#253 greatest13gerber: O’Driscoll has ground to make up, he’s not looking sharp these days.
Lions backline:
9. Blair (or Danny Care)
10. Wilkinson (fitness permitting)
11. Williams
12. Henson /Cipriani
13. Shanklin
14. Sackey
15. Kearney
16 Sep 2008, 13:13 pm
#255 stodders:
yeah that was a big tackle, but i think Os was slightly offbalance and unawares in that one, think its on utube somewhere.
16 Sep 2008, 13:14 pm
#252 Big Hit:
Well, Lizzie’s old, and prone to fainting.
I love the old bat, she has a wicked sense of humour.
16 Sep 2008, 13:14 pm
#213 WP Till I Die: Peter who?
16 Sep 2008, 13:15 pm
#258 cab: White can piledrive people, he broke Lawrence Dallaglio in half and Lol is a big guy but he doesn’t do it consistently enough.
#254 cab: yeah he tried to take Wilko’s head off too, when he gets it right tho, no one can match Lima’s ‘punch’ in the tackle
16 Sep 2008, 13:16 pm
#260 Big Hit:
Please don’t put Henson there.
I despise him.
He violated my sweetheart, Charlotte Church. He defiled her. She’s damaged goods now, thanks to him.
He is dead to me now.
16 Sep 2008, 13:17 pm
#264 Big Hit: lima is a thug man. he did the same high tackling kak in the 1995 wc.
i laughed my head off when the tosser knocked himself senseless on andre pretorius’s shoulder last year.
what a ****.
16 Sep 2008, 13:18 pm
Brian Lima!..sh*t, he is number one!
no one comes close.
end of debate
16 Sep 2008, 13:18 pm
#260 Big Hit:
i see you’ve picked the world’s greatest winger at 11, o’driscoll actually looks a bit heavy and out of shape, on your query on south african opensiders that fit the mould, as johnny said above probably baywatch is the toughest and most selfless, but he does not have the body position techniques of the best antipedean fectchers, yet.
croft is an an example of the size cuto-off that White was right about imo, has the same tigrish attitude and body position skills, but simply too small to compete against the likes of Waugh, Smith and even the new oke for NSA, beaux robinson.
16 Sep 2008, 13:19 pm
#253 greatest13gerber: Lions test XV:
1. A. Sheridan
2. D. Hartley
3. ? (Not many good tight heads in Britain and Ireland)
4. N. Hines
5. P. O’Connell
6. J. Haskell
7. A. Hogg/T. Rees/M Williams
8. R. Jones
9. M. Blair/M. Phillips
10. J. Wilkinson/ D. Cipriani
11. S. Lamont
12. G. Henson
13. T. Shanklin
14. S. Williams
15. R. Lamont
16 Sep 2008, 13:20 pm
#265 WP Till I Die:
lol
I hate Henson..overrated.
Darcy and Flood are better options.
16 Sep 2008, 13:21 pm
#265 WP Till I Die: haha, I don’t think he defiled her, she’s a game sorta girl if u know what i mean
#268 cab: deysel? I actually think van heerden could still do a job, should kept with him
16 Sep 2008, 13:21 pm
#270 greatest13gerber: D’Arcy is always broken (would you want him to take up a valuable spot on the tour knowing he is going to breakdown against Valke 3rds!)
Flood isn’t even the best 12 in England.
16 Sep 2008, 13:22 pm
#264 Big Hit:
yeah lima comes in at such a speed and with such committment he just cleans everything out.
But for sheer momentum, i think if a package of Os du Randts greatest tackles were put together, it would make for quite a spectable. Os was not only huge, what many dont realise is he had the pace of a back, i saw him make a tackle on lomu, which is the one and only time when i think Lomu got up and felt what it was like to be really mowed down in a tackle.
16 Sep 2008, 13:22 pm
#269 stodders:
Lions test XV:
1. A. Sheridan
2. D. Hartley
3. ? (Not many good tight heads in Britain and Ireland)
4. N. Hines
5. P. O’Connell
6. J. Haskell
7. A. Hogg/T. Rees/M Williams
8. R. Jones
9. M. Blair/M. Phillips
10. J. Wilkinson/ D. Cipriani
11. S. Lamont
12. G. Henson/Riki Flutey (if he plays well for England, he could be a shoe in). first Kiwi to play for the Lions
13. T. Shanklin
14. S. Williams
15. R. Lamont
16 Sep 2008, 13:24 pm
#269 stodders: Hartley still has a bit to do, I’d choose Flannery of Ireland at hooker. Vickery if fit will be tighthead. Hines the angry aussie is a bit of a liability, Shaw or o’callaghan. Openside will be Rees or Moody if fit. And you’ve seen my backs, R.Lamont isn’t starting at 15 for Sale, Tait is.
16 Sep 2008, 13:24 pm
#269 stodders:
not bad..
some certainties..
1.Sheriden
2.Thompson(to return?)
3.Vickery/Stevens
some bolters…
8.James Forrester
2.Mark Regan( one last campaign?)
16 Sep 2008, 13:25 pm
#271 Big Hit:
She was virginal!
Then he put his grubby hands on her.
*******. I **** in his general direction.
16 Sep 2008, 13:25 pm
#273 cab: Wish i could see Lomu getting smashed, Mike Catt didn’t quite manage it
16 Sep 2008, 13:26 pm
#277 WP Till I Die: she’s got her own chat show here WPTID, and she’s anything but virginal, ask stodders
16 Sep 2008, 13:27 pm
#275 Big Hit:
Brad Barritt!!
Big Hit, I am quite certain Geechs already has in mind the players he wants to look at. I think he will base his backline game around an experienced pommy pack.
16 Sep 2008, 13:27 pm
#272 stodders: Flood’s playing some good rugby at Leicester, don’t be surprised to see him in the squad.
16 Sep 2008, 13:27 pm
#275 Big Hit: Flannery is too hit and miss as a lineout thrower. Against the Boks, we need consistency from the hooker.
Vickery won’t make it.
Hines is needed to bully Bakkies.
Hogg is a better openside than Moody. Rees is a good player too, but Martyn Williams may be selected depending on the type of Game Mceechan wants to play.
R. Lamont isn’t starting yet, but he has come back from a horrific injury (Balshaw’s knee in Calcutta cup match last year). Tait will do well to keep him out for the full season.
16 Sep 2008, 13:28 pm
#281 Big Hit: He’s playing 10, not 12. On that basis, there are better 10s who can also play 12 to chose from (Cipriani and Hook)
16 Sep 2008, 13:29 pm
#280 greatest13gerber: Thats what Woodward did, it didn’t work out. You might be right though, I would go for a big pack against the Boks too. Sheridan, Vickery, Shaw, Haskell and Moody would be certainties in my team with Jones, Flannery and O’Connell filling the gaps, thats a monster pack.
16 Sep 2008, 13:29 pm
#279 Big Hit:
Yip, she’s not virginal anymore. The point is, she was. Before Henson came along.
Oh, and I have an irrational fear of the Easter Bunny.
16 Sep 2008, 13:30 pm
#280 greatest13gerber: That’s what Woodward did last time and it worked a treat!
I don’t think you know McGeechan too well. He will select who he thinks the best players are, then he will give them all ample chance to stake a claim for the test side. The side that runs on in test 1 will be the best team on tour, not the best team conceived in a pub on the Thames!
If you don’t believe me, check out the team that played SA in 1997. There were a few Englishmen, but not that many.
16 Sep 2008, 13:31 pm
#282 stodders: Hartley’s been missing his throws for Northampton too. Mears is the best thrower of them. Hogg isn’t on that level, I’d back Barclay ahead of Hogg. Hines bullying Bakkies would probably get us a red card. O’Connell can mix it with Botha.
16 Sep 2008, 13:32 pm
#278 Big Hit:
yeah unless u count the smashing inflicted on lomu’s studs by mike’s head.
as for the os tackle on lomu, there were two SA defenders, but think that was incidental and not Os’ intention to double tag, he simply lines up and charges, normally puts in 2 or 3 in per game, can miss quite spectacularly, but gets down low and unbelievable accurate when one considers the bulk being shunted around.
16 Sep 2008, 13:36 pm
#286 stodders:
thats true. That ’97 side had a lot of shockers in terms of selection but Geechs picked the personnel he thought could do the job. Not necessarily the form players form the 6N. You’re right about him picking his test side during the tour.
That competitiveness is soo important and what was missing from the disaster that was ’05
Bring back Mark Regan..that guy annoyed the hell out of the Bok pack!..old dog
16 Sep 2008, 13:37 pm
#286 stodders: 1997 team:
1. Smith (Sco)
2. Wood (Ire)
3. Wallace (Ire)
4. Johnson (Eng)
5. Davidson (Ire)
6. Dallaglio (Eng)
7. Hill (Eng)
8. Rodber (Eng)
9. Dawson (Eng)
10. Townsend (Sco)
11. Bentley (Eng)
12. Gibbs (Wal)
13. Guscott (Eng)
14. Tait (Sco)
15. Jenkins (Wal)
I think thats accurate, a lot of injuries though.
16 Sep 2008, 13:38 pm
#284 Big Hit:
Sheridan – ok. But maybe McGeechan will select a smaller, more technical loosehead like he did playing Tom Smith in 1997. It was a masterstroke in 1997. Does lightning strike twice?
Shaw – there are better tighter locks available in the British Isles than Shaw. Hines, O’Callaghan are but two.
Haskell – ok. But he will have his work cut out against the likes of Jonathan Thomas. Keep an eye out for Tom Croft as a bolter.
Moody – Nope. Not when you have better specialist players like Hogg, Rees and Williams. Moody may go as he is a 6/7 hybrid and would be valuable bench cover.
No bulk lost, and better players to boot. It is a myth that England has all the big players. They get bullied just as much by other teams as they bully them these days.
16 Sep 2008, 13:41 pm
#291 stodders: ‘They get bullied just as much by other teams as they bully them these days.’
with their first choice pack out, this simply isn’t true
16 Sep 2008, 13:43 pm
#291 stodders:
8.Taylor
7.Wallace
6.Ryan Jones/Julian White
the depth is quite bad in many positions. Sheriden and Stevens are best of whats availible. there is no Tom Smith in the NH at present. Sheriden is getting stronger and better. he will be a dangerman.
16 Sep 2008, 13:43 pm
Let me guess, with Stodders on the site the best players are the ones wearing the silver fern called the All Blacks.
They must have in Dan Carter the best FH, Richie MacCaw, the best flanker and Ali Williams, greatest living lock, Sivivati must be the gretaest winger, Meealamu must be the best sub etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc
Yawn, yawn, yawn
16 Sep 2008, 13:45 pm
What rubbish is this also about the Welsh eyeing the Boks, this must be a misprint, in more than 100 years of rugby they have only beaten the Boks once
Real intelligent nation the Welsh, aren’t they?
16 Sep 2008, 13:46 pm
Sheriden vs Mumjati
Sheriden will eat this boy alive. We will be weak at 3 come next season.
16 Sep 2008, 13:46 pm
#290 Big Hit: Lucky bunch, a drop kick from JeremyGuscot and Boks playing without a recognised kicker
16 Sep 2008, 13:47 pm
Lions
1. Sheridan 2. Flannery 3. Hayes
4. Shaw 5. O’Connel
6. White 7. Moody 8. Poppen
9. Cussitter/Peel 10. Wilko
12. Cipriani 13. BoD
11. Williams 14. R Lamont 15.
15. welsh fullback in 2nd test v SA in june
16 Sep 2008, 13:47 pm
#296 greatest13gerber: No not really, Mujati will stand his ground and grab more ground like his father
16 Sep 2008, 13:47 pm
#292 Big Hit: Who was missing from your first choice pack at Murrayfield last year?
16 Sep 2008, 13:48 pm
#297 JL1:
Hennie le Roux should have worn the 12 jersey against the Lions in ’97. Disgrace he didn’t.
16 Sep 2008, 13:50 pm
#294 JL1: Nice to see you too.
As it happens, we’ve just been speaking about the merits of Carter, Wilkinson et al. Now that you’ve finally arrived, we’ll move onto Richie McCaw
16 Sep 2008, 13:51 pm
#297 JL1: a win’s a win
it was over three games too so no complaints
#300 stodders: Moody and Haskell. But even if they weren’t missing, one game doesn’t prove everything.
#298 cab: the Welsh fullback was flyhalf James Hook, that was his only game for Wales at 15. They have a better one at home, Lee Byrne.
16 Sep 2008, 13:51 pm
#297 JL1: Close-knit, tough bunch, who took their chances…unlike the haphazard opposition they were playing. Better luck next year
16 Sep 2008, 13:52 pm
#303 Big Hit: True, but your top tight five were beaten up by Scotland and Italy last year.
16 Sep 2008, 13:53 pm
#299 JL1:
Squatters at Twickers!!
Mugabe’s way to get back at those damn british!!
16 Sep 2008, 13:55 pm
#303 Big Hit:
i dont know if it was hook, hook seems a bit flakey, i seem to recall another name, very steady, perhaps he was the 15 who was changed to centre in the 2nd test, robust and played well despite his age…let me think some more. looked a good prospect, lamont (the original one) is also a good option at 15.
16 Sep 2008, 13:57 pm
#304 stodders: 4 nations to beat one nation and it does not happen that often
Weak NH rugby nations
16 Sep 2008, 13:57 pm
jamie roberts i think is his name, i’ve seen byrne, but i think it was jamie roberts who was the one welsh back to stand out on tour.
16 Sep 2008, 13:58 pm
#305 stodders: I don’t consider Borthwick and Mears our true tight 5. Thompson is on his way back.
#307 cab: Roberts? he’s supposed to be a good prospect
16 Sep 2008, 13:59 pm
#308 JL1:
Weak NH rugby nations…..indeed, blame the retirees from the SH
16 Sep 2008, 13:59 pm
#308 JL1: hey its 15 against 15 on the field at the end of the day.
16 Sep 2008, 14:00 pm
What bollock the Welsh are talking. The Boks will destroy the Welsh even without a recognised kicker. Plus Pretorius should be up for contention soon.
The Welsh will be the toughest game but they will be destroyed by the Bok mobility. The Welsh looked unfit in SA. They need to become more lean. As for Shane Williams we will have a game plan for him.
16 Sep 2008, 14:02 pm
#308 JL1: I can’t disagree with you there about us being weaker than the SH nations in the past, but the Lions is now more of a challenge then it ever was for the Home unions, as gelling a squad of players from 4 disparate rugby playing nations against one country in the professional era is as tough as it gets for a coach. Thankfully we have a coach who knows how to win in SA.
Of course, it is something that has stuck in many a South Africa throat for the past 11 years, especially as the Wallabies and ABs managed to beat us in that time
16 Sep 2008, 14:03 pm
if england can put together an experienced tight 5 like in years gone by, they will be very difficult to beat by any of the SH sides at twickenham. no mears and no bortwick, kay is so-so, get thompson back with shaw and grewcock and they’ll be very difficult to beat.
16 Sep 2008, 14:03 pm
#310 Big Hit: Sh*t man, I forgot all about Rob Kearney, the Irish fulback. If he plays like he did on the summer tours to the SH, he will be 15 to play for the Lions.
16 Sep 2008, 14:03 pm
that Shane Williams try this year was best of the year
16 Sep 2008, 14:05 pm
#316 greatest13gerber: it’ll be Carter v Williams for IRB player of the year this year
16 Sep 2008, 14:06 pm
there isnt a welshman alive who thinks the boks will be easy beats.
and our social rugby world cup is in cape town during the lions tour so we will have plenty of welsh, scots, irish and poms to drink and be merry with!
16 Sep 2008, 14:09 pm
#318 rangerman:
merry with? brokeback CT mountain style?
yeah..good have a good time
16 Sep 2008, 14:11 pm
#314 stodders:
Here is a tip for the coach.
Give Castrogiovanni honoury citizenship!!
16 Sep 2008, 14:13 pm
#320 tight head: castro had a great 6N, if props were ever given recognition, he’d be on the IRB list too
16 Sep 2008, 14:14 pm
#319 greatest13gerber: lol, is that how they do it in Despatch?
its a tournament for social rugby sides from all over the world. we will party hard after we leave the field!
16 Sep 2008, 14:14 pm
#239 stodders:
Yeh i can see hitting someone back in the tackle means something for some of us.
Carter may also have been ordered to make sure he does not injure himself unnecessarily.
Its sometimes not really necessary to tackle like a lunatic just to get the ohhh!! from the crowd. May impress some but not me.
Like you pointed out it may be better to get up quickly and contest the ball then to concentrate on drilling your opponent into the ground.
16 Sep 2008, 14:14 pm
#320 tight head:
need to import some italians
16 Sep 2008, 14:17 pm
#322 rangerman:
in Despatch..you com a boy..you leav a man
16 Sep 2008, 14:18 pm
#323 Namblack: Nah, his tackling style is something he has picked up from McCaw. Tackle low, use the momentum of the driving player to pivot back onto the feet and then rip the ball. Works quite well.
16 Sep 2008, 14:18 pm
#324 greatest13gerber:
Sure, Castro and a few of his mates can double up as security officers for the tour as well!!
Can kill two birds with one stone!!
16 Sep 2008, 14:19 pm
#320 tight head: I agree with you there. Maybe we should rename the Lions to British & Irish Plus Honorary Latin Lions
16 Sep 2008, 14:22 pm
#328 stodders:
there was that april fools story on a rugby site about french and italian players being made eligible for Lions!..I actually fell for it at first
16 Sep 2008, 14:26 pm
#328 stodders:
I believe Castrogiovanni’s real name is Fergus Fitzgerald.
Perhaps you could look into his family tree.
You know, Stodders, do your bit for the tour!!
16 Sep 2008, 14:26 pm
#314 stodders: Still, NH rugby teams are weak and will become weaker due to the system here
You will see eoyt. NH rugby is a bit of a joke
16 Sep 2008, 14:33 pm
#324 Namblack:
yes, but there are many a big tackle that i’ve seen which have swing an entire game’s momentum right around, it lifts your own team and deflates the oppo, aside from anything, a low fair piledriver is a very skillful thing to do execute in its own right.
i love the big tackles, burger and os, hell its beautiful to watch.
16 Sep 2008, 14:33 pm
#331 JL1: Again, I can’t disagree with you. It is club centric, just like European football. That is where the money is, and that i’m afraid is where investors want to pump their money into. The international game in the NH is not the be and end all that it is in the SH. It’s sad, but that is harsh reality up here.
I know a few Frenchmen who couldn’t give a rats *** about how France fare, song as their club side are winning. This club vs country battle is also beginning to hit English rugby. I know many a passionate Englishman, but they are becoming more loyal to their clubs.
I would say that only Wales are the last truly international focused NH nation. Scotland is a dying force, and Ireland have real issues with their supporters choosing their province above their country (Munster being the greatest example).
16 Sep 2008, 14:34 pm
#326 greatest13gerber:
but greatest, u still sound like a boy, did u spend enough time?
bladdy dirty league that.
16 Sep 2008, 14:35 pm
#330 tight head: Sadly ol’ Fergus chose to done the Azzurri blue, so he can’t play for the Lions. But I believe he has a cousin…Sean Slattery. I’ll get onto it straight away
16 Sep 2008, 14:41 pm
#333 stodders: Club Rugby
the top 6 S14 teams will sweep the floor with all the NH club teams, they are weak those club sides
16 Sep 2008, 14:45 pm
#336 JL1: Try telling Big Hit that. He seems to think that Wasps would beat the Crusaders anytime, anywhere. I’ve tried to reaosn with the man, but he won’t listen.
IMO, any one of the Sharks, Waratahs or Crusaders (best S14 teams from each country) would probably topple the best of the NH.
16 Sep 2008, 14:49 pm
#337 stodders: My point precisely, you will see how the Lions rugby will aslo be affected by the club system and by the amount of imported players
16 Sep 2008, 14:49 pm
Anyhow I am out of here, we should get together some time
16 Sep 2008, 14:50 pm
#331 JL1: we’ll see won’t we. Looking forward to it.
#337 stodders: Wasps would dispose of the Crusaders, Toulouse probably would too.
16 Sep 2008, 14:51 pm
#332 cab: agreed!
16 Sep 2008, 14:53 pm
#340 Big Hit: Seems like you are smoking the wrong weed
16 Sep 2008, 14:55 pm
#339 JL1: It would be good…I promise to keep schtum about anything to do with NZ and to talk solely about the virtues of South African rugby.
16 Sep 2008, 14:59 pm
#334 cab:
I am more man then most of the girls here.
16 Sep 2008, 15:00 pm
ah well, good nite girls..being a decent discussion for a change
16 Sep 2008, 15:12 pm
#345 greatest13gerber:
ok gerbs, just pulling your leg.
you need to take down that bronzed statue of Naas in your garden.
16 Sep 2008, 15:22 pm
#61 Big Hit:
interesting – in which game in 2007 did ‘Butch James outplay Dan Carter’ ?
16 Sep 2008, 15:45 pm
#348 BlackPanther: 2007 in Durban, SA were heading to victory, James claimed a try was kicking well and Carter was whinging to the ref about his rough treatment but Butch had to go off when the Boks were ahead. Steyn came on at 10 and the rest is history.
16 Sep 2008, 15:47 pm
#207 johnnybravo: I would agree with your comments. The claim that this years ABs were a young untested team in development is an exaggeration. In reality they had 12-13 established test players in their 22 game day squads. Plus they had a proven coaching squad to lead the team.
16 Sep 2008, 15:52 pm
#350 JimT: in reality they lost Kelleher, McAlister, Jack and Hayman from their run-on 15. SA lost Du Randt and Fourie from their run-on side. The replacements for both teams did well though with Cowan and Thorn stepping up and Beast/Jacobs doing well.
16 Sep 2008, 16:15 pm
Evans is a rocket scientist eh?
Boks came stone cold last and have a numnuts as a coach… tell us something we don’t know!
16 Sep 2008, 16:22 pm
#352 bryce_in_oz:
53 – 8
16 Sep 2008, 16:25 pm
#162 rangerman: You sound like a a 2nd hand car salesman.
16 Sep 2008, 16:27 pm
#352 bryce_in_oz: I too am going to say this. 53-8
16 Sep 2008, 16:28 pm
#351 Big Hit:
McAlister was never a regular starter in the run-on 15, he doesn’t count.
16 Sep 2008, 16:30 pm
#349 Big Hit: Agree with you there Big Hit. Butch was great in that game. Outplayed Carter that day until he had to go off.
16 Sep 2008, 17:03 pm
#357 Puma: You mean the Bok pack outmuscled the ABs pack for 60 mins until they ran out of puff
16 Sep 2008, 17:06 pm
#352 bryce_in_oz: and to come second means that you are the first loser
16 Sep 2008, 17:14 pm
#358 stodders: I think we done well that day. We had 6 of our best players out. Also our Captain never played that day. Not bad I think. We still should have won. Its long gone now. But we won the world cup. Nice hey!!!!! better than to have won on that day anytime.
16 Sep 2008, 17:23 pm
#360 Puma: True. ABs had injuries too and were playing away from home. I don’t know why you say you should have won, considering the ABs finished much the stronger in that game. But like you say, the Boks won the games that mattered most in 2007 and walked away from France with the Webb Ellis Trophy.
16 Sep 2008, 17:25 pm
Let’s face it……any team that is organized with a “plan”, will have a great chance against the boks so long as DeVilliers persists with his absence of any sort of coherent plan and/or organization.
“Play what is in front of you”…….
soon Georgia will be queing up for a crack at us.
So, so sad…….from World Cup winners to “easiest scalp”…..in 12 months.
But that is what you get when you get hoodwinked and bamboozeled by an affirmative action candidate for a industry leading position.
Shame on us…we are getting exactly what we deserve.
Pray that DeVilliers learns or else the next 12 months could be the worst we have had ever before.
16 Sep 2008, 17:28 pm
#361 stodders:
…..that game was the Kiwis reward for resting their AB’s during the S14 that season. The South Africans reward was winning the S14….and of course, the big one!
16 Sep 2008, 17:30 pm
#362 St.Petersburgbok: Agree with you. If PdV does not learn quick then we are going the same way down as the soccer here. Right to the very bottom. Its a shame as we should have been right up there if we had a coach. Heard that Eddie Jones says he would love to coach the Boks. Which great coach would not want to coach such talented players. We should have had the best coach with the kind of talent we have here.
16 Sep 2008, 17:49 pm
#362 St.Petersburgbok: What makes you think that he doesn’t have a gameplan?
and don’t repeat “Play what is in front of you” because that’s what he’s adding to the team.
16 Sep 2008, 17:51 pm
#61 Big Hit: Peter Grant @ 10. JDV captain.
16 Sep 2008, 17:52 pm
#363 St.Petersburgbok: I agree with that.
16 Sep 2008, 17:54 pm
#364 Puma: We have a coach! It’s
PDV, and we are 2 on the IRB ranking..?
16 Sep 2008, 17:54 pm
#364 Puma: Count your lucky stars that Eddie jones didn’t get his hands on your team. A very good techincal analyst and assistant coach he may be, but a consistently poor head coach he also proved to be.
16 Sep 2008, 17:55 pm
2 = 2nd
16 Sep 2008, 17:57 pm
#369 stodders: True, very true..
16 Sep 2008, 17:59 pm
#364 Puma: hi Puma, Eddie Jones head coach and Jake Director of Rugby! HIER KOM N DING!
16 Sep 2008, 18:01 pm
#369 stodders: Eddies no fool, that poisoned chalice too much for most to handle i am afraid!
16 Sep 2008, 18:02 pm
Oh… and I forgot to mention, any one of our top 5 Currie Cup teams will beat the Welsh!
16 Sep 2008, 18:06 pm
#374 GeminiCT: i wouldnt be so sure, the eoyt is going to have either a 2nd string bok team or an exhausted one. We playing our boks into the ground!!
16 Sep 2008, 18:15 pm
#375 grant10: Dude… It was a joke! stop reading all the negative **** that gets spewed out on this site! It’s frying your brain!
16 Sep 2008, 18:32 pm
#374 GeminiCT: That’s just being silly and arrogant. Wales, at home, in front of a passionate support have a good chance of beating South Africa if South Africa have not prepared properly and are not mentally engaged.
Remember that South Africa will not have played together once since the 3N prior to the Wales match, and the Bok players will not have had any match action after the CC finishes in October. The Boks will be going in cold, as will Wales, but the Welsh players will have had the benefit of being at the beginning of their season and be playing consistent rugby.
I still take the Boks to win by 5, but it won’t be easy.
16 Sep 2008, 18:40 pm
#372 grant10: That would be great I think but it will never happen.
#375 grant10: Agree there.
16 Sep 2008, 18:44 pm
#376 stodders: Stodders we are still playing CC until October. All our Boks are in those teams even if we are not playing together we are still playing rugby so will be fit and ready mate. We have only ever in the history of Bok rugby in a 100 years lost to Walse ONCE. They will only have a chance to beat us if PdV takes a very young side and leaves the regular Boks at home. Wales do have a good coach though.
16 Sep 2008, 18:54 pm
#333 cab: A big hit might be exciting to watch and it may lift the team spirit and earn you some bravado, but whats the point, when at the same time you are fast tracking your demise? To biggles i beg to differ with you when you say JW is a better defender than Carter. Only difference is their technique, i dont see any disparity.
I have actually seen Carter make some try saving tackles and some that are embedded in my mind to back my statement are the ones on Marc Cueto at Twick in 06 i guess, one on Habana this year in NZ after receiving an inside ball, the bootlace tackle on Gitts in OZ[ inthe test they lost].His tackle on Spies after that charged drop attempt…… infact i could go on and on
But it seems you are measuring defence with the force you hit an opponent with, but no its stopping the offensive surgethat matters. I guess you would say Collins is a better defender than McCaw basing from your logic.
16 Sep 2008, 18:57 pm
#378 Puma: They have two good coaches – Gatland and Edwards.
South Africa lost to a Welsh side coached by a Kiwi in 1998. Maybe lightning will strike twice in 2008
16 Sep 2008, 19:01 pm
#377 stodders: Dude.. read post 376
16 Sep 2008, 19:02 pm
Is it just me or is this site up to ****?
16 Sep 2008, 19:41 pm
Are you trying to wind us up Grant? We thrashed Wales only a few months ago and that was when we’d only just started under PDV…?? Oz and NZ players will be just as tired.
Ah well, what ever helps Ieuan Evans sleep better at night….God loves a tryer.
16 Sep 2008, 19:46 pm
#379 rugby fan:
i dont think there’s any bravado whatsoever in a big hit, quite the opposite, its all about actions not words. Os personified and why he was hugely respected.
you are putting down a marker for the oppo and showing them through your actions what the day is going to be like, those thunderous tackles have a big effect in the big games, when it appears u are playing against men posessed its bound to have an effect.
also, wilkinson is far better than carter defensively and he is better mentally, but carter is more naturally talented and on current form is the best flyhalf easily imo.
16 Sep 2008, 20:36 pm
cab : the mental bit i can take on any given sunday, infact jonny is one guy as a coach, if you have never met him or heard of him and on your first encounter with him, just by looking at him you are assured…. yo sho def got a player… same goes to Glenn McGrath.
were i tend to disagree is the defensive part. just because you come in with a big hit does not necessarily translate you into a better defender. like i pointed out earlier, its stopping that offensive surge or defending the gain line that matters the most. of which dan and jonny do it every now and again hence my summation, there is no disparity between the two despite what other commentators would like us to believe that there is a deep gulf between the two.
it would be a fine line if ever there is, which i doubt in my opinion. cant wait for the autumn tests tho
16 Sep 2008, 21:24 pm
#4 Richie_7: ag richie, suig bird.#48 Big Hit: BH, Earl lives up to your nick.His wife and hotel security guards.
But you’re right. I rate him too.
16 Sep 2008, 21:44 pm
We may see some surprise selections in the end of the year tour.If Pdv picks the right kind of players the Welsh will have to wait another year or two.
If our coach sticks to his expansive game,Welsh could spring a surprise.
Watching four NZ sides play today on Supersport I’ll never complain
about our refs again.Boy those Kiwi boys can play but their refs must
be the worst around.
16 Sep 2008, 22:15 pm
Wales has not done anything great in rugby since the 1970′s. Winning the Six Nations in a weak year counts for nothing. There are no hiding places in the Tri-Nations as can be seen from this year. Maybe the Pikees of world rugby should keep quiet
16 Sep 2008, 23:40 pm
Ieuan Evans should put his brain into gear before his mouth, methinks.
“South Africa are still unsure what sort of game they want to play. Also, a lot of their players are looking tired. Butch James has played two years of solid rugby.” is going to turn around and bite him on the arse. I have my doubts whether Butch will be playing a part
17 Sep 2008, 02:20 am
#21 iori Yagami: you wish. The boks will never have the same aura as the AB’s, maybe in the republic of SA, but even that seems to be eroding now.
#387 brentie: Our refs were pretty good in those games SA v Aus, or have you got a very short memory?
#278 Big Hit: Why do you hate us so much BH, did a kiwi kid steal your lunch money one day, or do you accept that we are a far better country at playing rugby than your lot will ever be, despite your massive population and financial advantages?
17 Sep 2008, 05:52 am
Must agree with KiakahaNZ – You South Africans really dfind it hard to accept that after losing four out of six tests in the Tri-nations, you were last! Forget the excuses…. Outside of SA, you are not rated the top nation/. Inside SA you rate yourself first, second and third!
17 Sep 2008, 07:47 am
390
KiakahaNZ
Not at all but the ones I saw were just plain ****.
17 Sep 2008, 07:50 am
391
Kiwikev
Repeat your comments only after you manage to win your second
World Cup.21 years is a long time don’t you think so?
17 Sep 2008, 08:09 am
Wales will have to do a lot of the same talking, not in the same league as Boks. I will admit they did look good in a very average 6 Nations, but looked very average against a Bok side in June without 10 World Cup players.
17 Sep 2008, 08:19 am
#392 Kiwikev: Kiwikev, now there’s a name that goes so well with your comment you must surely be the brightest bulb on the marquee !!
17 Sep 2008, 13:27 pm
#392 Kiwikev: #391 KiaKahaNZ:
You Kiwi boys keep talking about the aura of the Boks, it doesn’t exist etc. but you keep talking about it – Irony. We dont talk too much about the ABs in these parts.
No doubt the Boks did finish last in the 3N. But I do think you are only as good as your last World Cup. I think it has been shown on enough occasions that when the Boks do put it together (sadly not often enough due to our OWN doing) we are unmatchable. Can’t honestly say that about the ABs – they head into every tournament as favourites – favourites in 6 world cups, with 1 win. I dunno Kiwi boys, that doesn’t seem right! When I think of Brazil in football, Aus in cricket, Tiger Woods, Michael Schumacher – The AB’s just don’t fit in as the best in their code…
17 Sep 2008, 14:57 pm
Pienaar should succeed James. He is a modern fly-half. He can kick, tackle and run. he will rival the likes of Giteau and co with his intelligent running and speed. I would go Ruan Pienaar, plu she is a game breaker. At scrum-half there is no hope. Also at FB he looks fragile.
I might start a Facebook group called “Ruan for 10..”
18 Sep 2008, 05:07 am
#397 foot-in-touch: except to say, oh no we lost to them again …
of course the “aura of the boks” doesnt exist, as your charmed WC victory was proven beyond reasonable doubt against (in Keo’s words) an average AB side and a rebuilding Aussie…
18 Sep 2008, 05:13 am
#397 foot-in-touch: only as good as your last world cup hahahaha keep believing that… because the way SA rugby is going, it may just be an extremely long time before you win another… and although us kiwis have had to wait a while, eventually we will get another one, then the floodgates will open and we will end up having more of those then anyone else … so continue living off of last years glory, thats what your team did, and where did it get them, last against supposed weaker opposition… man , some of you SA bloggers just have no idea at all…
18 Sep 2008, 05:15 am
#397 foot-in-touch: you are unmatchable ? whats the ledger between the boks and Ab’s now, 42 to 30… man , that has been steadily growing each year… seems you are matchable, in fact beatable, even in your own country, twice in succession ? hell, its taken you guys ten years to beat us at home, seems you got your sides confused.
18 Sep 2008, 05:23 am
#397 foot-in-touch: still, tell me the last time a world cup champion was held scoreless in its own country ??? WC champs losing 19-0 oh my oh my oh my oh my hahahaha that has to be almost as bad as 49-0, or 53-3 (to England, thats farkin embarassing), not to mention the times the AB’s have put 50 past you, and yes, one of those was in your country too…(Loftus)
18 Sep 2008, 05:45 am
#142 Big Hit: hahahah so now we measure how in form JW is by him kicking a field goal, no wonder you hate Kiwis and their rugby so much, your golden boy wants to turn the game into a hybrid version of Australian rules….
18 Sep 2008, 06:06 am
#397 foot-in-touch: check your facts, we havent been the favourites going into every WC, Aussie were in 91, and we were joint favourites with Eng in 2003… do you even watch rugby ?
18 Sep 2008, 14:04 pm
Yep, we feel pretty good about our rugby at the moment – as you SA say, only an average NZ team and a weak Aussie team. You guys had six chances to win and you managed twice and that was with a lucky bounce in the last three minutes in Dunedin! Not bad for a Kiwiteam that lost 17 AB’s from last year. We will take the satisfaction of winning at the moment. Have got over the one loss from 2007. I cannot recall an NZ crowd booing our own team off the field…incidently, who is the top team on the IRB rankings? Another thing – you guys constantly talk about your overwhelming depth – well I seem to remember that South African teams seem to end up in the lower half of the table in Super 14 and last in the Tri nations – AND you only just beat Fiji in the World Cup!
18 Sep 2008, 14:12 pm
poppa69
Jeez, where to start.
After the 95 WC, we heard similar rantings from outside SA about this being the last WC we would win. Describe the comment “the way SA rugby is going”? Do you think we did not hit rough patches before we won the WC again – every year we have a crisis. You seem a person for facts, so check this out and I think the holes you picked in us before are the same ones you pick now, and will no doubt do so again. So I guess this leaves the Kiwis in a quandary asking themselves how they can consistently be the best side in the world (which I do believe – between world cups) but never winning the ultimate prize when all the teams show up. And then asking yourself how those Saffas pull their game through their butt but have won 2 in 4?
I watch rugby with both eyes open. Yes, those smacks your refer to were embarrassing – no doubt. We take the good with the bad here, you don’t read articles about Saffas falling out of love with rugby like those coming out of NZ after the last WC. What’s that about? I am wondering what will happen if you don’t win the 2011 WC at home. The pressure will be huge and I just don’t believe the ABs will handle it. Which is odd for such gifted players. But, with hardmen players like Ali Williams saying that a cricket score against Samoa in a nothing game is better than a boring WC, I am not really surprised.
If I had a dollar for every time I heard a Kiwi bleating “When we win one we will win a load…” Let’s see the one first!
19 Sep 2008, 14:22 pm
I think that you will find by the 2011 world cup, NZ will be feilding a pretyy comptent team. A number of current players in the UK/France have indicated that they will be back – we have a good young group coming through from thre World Champion inder 20 team – add these to the very average team in 2008 and I think we will do OK! NZ has pretty well got over 2007 and will once again enjoy taking in the wiins over the next two seasons. Every win means the cafe’s are full and people have agreat night out. They also feel good the next morning. It becomes a habit! We sleep well at night and enjoy reading the morning papers….In some countries with 50million people, they boo their team off after being beaten by Italy, they sack their coach and the daily pa[pers maul them….No winning tests do give you that “warm feeling” of satisfaction!
20 Sep 2008, 00:29 am
#406 foot-in-touch: do you really ? well , have a look at some of the comments on this very site after your teams loss in Wellington, or the two losses in SA this year… then please tell me that SA’s dont fall out of love with rugby…. the constant calls for PDV’s head suggest otherwise, best you open that other eye…
The first one was in 87 champ, yet SA fans dont count that because they werent there ( not our fault your country wasnt civilised then, they would have been invited otherwise) … and heres the fairness of SA fans, and I quote “it doesnt count because we werent there”… well as sooo many SA’s tell us about last years WC, you can only play whats in fron of you, so its different for SA…
and tell me, the fact that Fiji pushed you guys so close in the WC, is that the standard you are happy with ? I was cheering your team on after mine exited, but seeing as everyone seems to think the WC is the measure of supremacy in rugby (which lasts the next 4 years , apparently WTF ? ), then I can only summise that your team CHOKED miserably in this years 3Ns ? waiting for the excuses for that now, you know, travel, ref conspiracy, game plan, PDV, quotas, antipodean alliance, ELV’s , did I miss any ???
21 Sep 2008, 00:59 am
Cmon, people bleating about New Zealand choking every WC assume that NZ were undisputed favourites to win every time. You may be unpleasantly surprised that they were as such only in 2007. In 1991 the main favourites were Australia, 1995 – Australia, New Zealand and South Africa, 1999 – Australia, New Zealand and South Africa, 2003 – England and New Zealand. And in any tournament the better team won, which clearly indicates that New Zealand weren’t the best team in the the respective tournaments.
Good luck, South Africa in autumn internationals. After England’s misery in their 4 year would cup tenure, hopefully South Africa will do better. However, I fancy NH chances this year and Welsh blokes are not too far from the truth, as SA may be ruthless and brilliant – and may be woeful. For a long time European AI have not been too happy hunting grounds for them.
30 Sep 2008, 11:17 am
The last word is mine.
Wales didn’t make the WC quarters, so he can shut his trap.
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