Welsh eye Bok scalp
16 Sep 2008
Former Welsh wing Ieuan Evans believes the Springboks will be Wales’ easiest southern hemisphere opposition during the end-of-year tours.
Wales play the Boks on 8 November followed by Canada, Australia and New Zealand – all at the Millennium Stadium on successive weekends. Former Welsh captain Evans believes the world champions present the easiest opportunity for the Six Nations champs to cause an upset over the Tri-Nations teams.
“South Africa is the best chance of a win. Australia are probably the most innovative [of the three] and New Zealand are going to be a handful,” Evans told Scrum V.
He cited player burnout, which is not easing up as most of the Springboks have gone straight from the internationals into Absa Currie Cup action, as a reason to make the Welsh favourites. He also highlighted how the Bok players have struggled to understand Peter de Villiers’s game-plan as an added bonus for the hosts.
“South Africa are still unsure what sort of game they want to play. Also, a lot of their players are looking tired. Butch James has played two years of solid rugby.”
Not even a year after their World Cup triumph and the Boks already seem to have lost their aura of World Champions in the eyes of the northern hemisphere.
410 Comments
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16 Sep 2008, 12:42 pm
#194 Big Hit: Wilkinson is a very good flyhalf, but let’s not b*llshit each other here. One of his flaws is his lack of pace and his lack of natural talent offensively. He is not a natural runner like say a Larkham or a Carter.
He is a manufactured flyhalf. I’ve read many articles by Wilkinson himself describing how he has sought to teach himself how to be more instinctive. I have much respect for him in improving this aspect of his game.
16 Sep 2008, 12:42 pm
#200 cab: kronfeld is an eco-warrior
16 Sep 2008, 12:42 pm
#199 Big Hit: Only if he can get there in time
16 Sep 2008, 12:43 pm
#201 stodders: teaching instinct?
16 Sep 2008, 12:43 pm
#198 Big Hit: Why not play Steyn on the wing. Least amount of disruption then.
16 Sep 2008, 12:44 pm
#201 stodders: Lack of pace over the longer distance yes, but not over the first few yards. In 2001-03 he made more linebreaks than any other player but offloaded immediately. I don’t think there’s any such thing as a manufactured player, you do what you do on the field and thats it. Wilko gets the job done, over and over again.
16 Sep 2008, 12:44 pm
At the beginning of the Tri-nations it was said that South- Africa had the most settled team out of the three Southern Hemisphere super powers. I was stunned.
New Zealand retained all their coaching staff that they have had since 2004. They boasted to the world that they can win the World Cup with two teams, yes, a lot of their top players have gone overseas, but so have ours. And most of the players still remaining are the same players that ran the world ragged over the last couple of years. Saying that the All Blacks was the most unsettled team out of the three is absolute rubbish. Same coaching staff, and 80% of the players that have been part of their squad over the last few years. They should have taken the Tri-nations, and deservedly they did.
Australia appointed probably the worlds best coach, and with this comes the confidence of numorous Super 12/14 trophy’s and experience. No-one in world rugby can doubt his ability, not even the players. Having a coach of his ability automatically suggests that he will use Aus’s traditional strong points and build around it. That’s what he did, and that’s why they came second. They also have a new coach, it will take time to get used to.
Yes, we are the World Champions – but we had a total coaching change, none of the coaching staff involved in the WC was retained to help assist the new coaches. Settled? No. New game plan, new structures. It’s rediculous saying that we were the most settled squad. Our coach’s ability is still questioned. What did he achieve prior to the appointment of Springbok coach? He vowed to make us play a different game than to that of our traditional strengths. And I guarentee you that it was not just the public and press questioning this, but the players too.
We were the most unsettled team out of the three, and we still are. We were heading for the wooden spooners before the first match in Wellington was played.
16 Sep 2008, 12:44 pm
#190 stodders:
Wilkinson is the most intelligent playmaker around today. Reminds me of Lynach and Fox indeed but has more alround ability.
Naas is the greatest kicker of the ball I have ever seen. Complete master tactician when it came to controlling the game with his boot.
never seen a 10 dominate games like Naas..then Larkham came along and really revolutionalized the 10 game with his accurate passing game and slight of hand. Simply freakish
16 Sep 2008, 12:44 pm
#205 stodders: because the current centres don’t use the wingers
16 Sep 2008, 12:47 pm
#204 rangerman: OK, not instinctive in the sense of making the right play, but more instrinctive as in improving peripheral vision.
When Jason Robinson crossed over from League, Wilkinson asked to see his training regime to see if he could make train himself to be more elusive. One of the training sessions was in a gym with a load of swinging bags. Wilkinson’s challenge was to get from one side of the gym to the other without being knocked over. It was sort of medieval. Wilkinson used it to improve his balance and peripheral vision. You can see it when he spins out of tackles as the defender approaches.
16 Sep 2008, 12:47 pm
#190 stodders:
Yip, Henry “Lem” Honiball, the modest banana farmer from Bergville – he was an absolutely destructor of opposing players’ bodies. Launching himself like an assegai being thrown, you could usually feel his tackles in the stands even, that’s how hard he went in.
16 Sep 2008, 12:48 pm
actually guys like mccaw and kronfeld, who aren’t necessarily the biggest, compared to the modern forward, just show how much of the game is still down to attitude and heart. these guys put their bodies in the most compromising situations when over the ball and are likely to be cleaned out from all angles, yet their bodies are like pieces of old iron, just keep taking the punishment.
This is for me the real difference with respect to our opensiders, not so much the size but the attitude which is to take punishment for the team, they are the exact opposite of flash players. Niel Back, Phil Waugh, George Betsen, Marty Holah and George Smith all the same. Playing right to the ball, very tight, but into everything.
Our guys prefer a linking role and do not compete for the ball, instead they try and take out the player rather than playing to the ball at the expense of a big cleanout which would hurt the pride. McCaw could not care less, he is simply back into the next breakdown. Great spirit and attitude.
16 Sep 2008, 12:50 pm
#198 Big Hit:
Now that sounds like an interesting prospect, I might agree with you there – Peter Grant inside, Adi Jacobs outside, and Jean de Villiers on the right wing with Conrad Jantjes at the back.
The mouth waters at the prospect of a combination like that…
16 Sep 2008, 12:50 pm
#211 WP Till I Die:
Henry “Lem” Honiball was quite a strange and enigmatic character in rugby circles. Even when he scored tries he always had the same bland expression on his face.
an enigma
16 Sep 2008, 12:50 pm
#210 stodders: is that like nature nurturing you?
no mate, i know what you mean.
16 Sep 2008, 12:50 pm
#206 Big Hit: Any other player in the NH.
Of course there is such a thing as a manufactured player. Carter is manufactured too in some ways, but he is a more natural runner than Wilkinson, and it shows in the way he plays the game. I imagine it also mainly because In Nz that aspect of his game was nurtured better than wilkinson’s was in England.
Mark Ella was the most natural running/passing flyhalf I have ever seen, and he could do things with the ball that even the Welsh greats would have marvelled at.
16 Sep 2008, 12:51 pm
#212 cab: do Sa have a player like that? Deysel, Watson or Van Heerden?
16 Sep 2008, 12:52 pm
#210 stodders:
Wilkinson training methods and perfectism is legend.
200 place kicks in a trainng session?..WTF?
16 Sep 2008, 12:53 pm
#216 stodders: sorry i don’t get the idea that someone is manufactured, they’re humans not machines
the only thing more natural about Carter than Wilkinson is that he’s quicker over the longer distance, same as Charlie Hodgson.
16 Sep 2008, 12:53 pm
#218 greatest13gerber: What’s your take on Carter? Take off your anti-Kiwi bias for a mo.
16 Sep 2008, 12:54 pm
#219 Big Hit: Machines are assembled by humans/machines, rugby players are assembled by coaches. Manufactured.
16 Sep 2008, 12:54 pm
#213 WP Till I Die: yeah, if PDV is intent on playing a wide game those guys could really do a job on the opposition if given the ball in space
16 Sep 2008, 12:55 pm
#190 stodders:
Honiball, now you mention another great player.
i think mallett was a very good coach, but i always felt SA should have added a 3rd world cup crown in 99 if had not dropped honiball for de beer, this was for me more important than the teichman dropping, but there was talk of injury and de beer did out-droppie england, still i felt it was a bad call. Honiball excelled to win 3rd spot by beating the ABs. we has the wood on that oz team, oh well.
16 Sep 2008, 12:55 pm
playing the best 12 in the world on the wing is the stupidist thing i’ve ever heard
16 Sep 2008, 12:55 pm
#221 stodders: Wilkinson wasn’t assembled by a coach he’s not T1000
16 Sep 2008, 12:55 pm
#214 greatest13gerber:
My uncle is his doctor there in Bergville, Henry still farms bananas there. A very humble, quiet-spoken man. I have amazing respect for Honiball.
16 Sep 2008, 12:55 pm
#217 Big Hit:
Baywatch from the Lions is a prime example of what cab is saying. He’s not as big and strong as McCaw, but play very similar.
16 Sep 2008, 12:56 pm
#219 Big Hit: I would say that Carter has more of a tendency to try to take the gap. Maybe that is just because he has the speed to take advantage of it, or maybe that is because the teams that he plays in encourage it more.
16 Sep 2008, 12:57 pm
#223 cab: You can take comfort from something. De Beer left a lasting impression on another player with his drop goal exploits – Jonny Wilkinson.
16 Sep 2008, 12:58 pm
#228 stodders: Wilkinson in the past year hasn’t looked interested in taking the gap, mostly I think because he was playing injured but also because the England forwards provided nothing but slow ball. But in his last two games for the Falcons he’s started to make breaks again. The challenge from Cipriani appears to have reawoken his attacking instincts which can only be a good thing. I see Kelly Brook is rehabilitating Danny’s foot
16 Sep 2008, 12:58 pm
#225 Big Hit:
Jonny Wilkinson is actually a highly-classified MI6 project.
Rumours abound that David Beckham was built by the same shadowy group.
16 Sep 2008, 12:58 pm
#188 Big Hit:
“Carter doesn`t have Johnny`s defense” – I cant agree. I have seen Carter making crucial tackles when AB`s are defending but you will not notice unless you remove your blinkers.
Also this thing about playing on your opponenst face is BS you can only do that if your opponent is struggling usually when the the forwards are on the back foot all the time and that does not happen a lot with the AB`s. Its not something you decide to do or not to do upfront.
I can remember that 2005 game at Newlands was a case in point, the boks still cannot forget it till this day. It shows how long ago they actually managed to dominate a game against the AB`s.
16 Sep 2008, 12:59 pm
#229 stodders: man they were like mortar bombs they just kept coming and there was nothing anyone could do about it
16 Sep 2008, 12:59 pm
#223 cab: I have to say, the tactics that day were one of the best coaching jobs I have seen from a team. England had no answer whatsoever to what the Boks, and De Beer, were doing to them. I remember sitting watching it and asking myself if it was really happening. It was truly surreal!
16 Sep 2008, 13:00 pm
Honiball had Greenwood’s build, very tall for backs, wirey and strong.
Honiball had a massive heart tho, brilliant player, actually i think those were the days when they had another chiropracter in the backline, pieter muller was about as close to brian lima as we came, in the old days i think it was mannetjies roux that used to fly into tackles…difference with Honiball, like Os, all their tackles were low and fair, but helluva bonejarring, literally drove players back and capable of changing a whole match.
16 Sep 2008, 13:00 pm
#234 stodders: Wilkinson didn’t start that game though, Paul Grayson did. Wilkinson had a poor goalkicking performance v the ABs in the pool game and Grayson was preferred.
16 Sep 2008, 13:01 pm
#235 cab: yeah, the Boks had real hard backs in the 90s, a really physical side
16 Sep 2008, 13:01 pm
I can’t see Wilkinson and Carter being compared. Wilkonson was great, but Carter is phenomenal. He’s in a class of his own. He’s going to be the best FH the world has ever seen.
16 Sep 2008, 13:02 pm
#232 Namblack: Oh come on. Don’t be a plonker. Carter is secure on defence, but he doesn’t rock defenders back in the tackle like Wilkinson did in his prime.
I have to say though, Wilkinson didn’t effect as many turnovers in the tackle, or get up to contest the ball as Carter does. Different tackling styles, but both are effective in their way.
16 Sep 2008, 13:02 pm
#220 stodders:
Dan Carter is smooth as silk. Seems to have all the time in the world. Does not shine as much as Gitau but his ability to create opportunites is better then anyone esle.
Carter, Gitau, Wilkinson
I don’t see anyone esle getting close to these three.
16 Sep 2008, 13:03 pm
#231 WP Till I Die: Wilko got the best left boot, Beckham got the right
16 Sep 2008, 13:03 pm
#236 Big Hit: I didn’t say he played. But Wilkinson must have learned alot about keeping the scoreboard ticking and the pressure it puts on the opposition (as did Woodward)
16 Sep 2008, 13:04 pm
#240 greatest13gerber: Cipriani will make it, not yet, but in a season or two. He arguably already has Carter’s running ability just has to add the tactical nous.
16 Sep 2008, 13:04 pm
#238 johnnybravo: Unless injury forces him to retire early, he’ll have overtake Wilkinson’s points scoring record. All those 5 pointers will be the difference
16 Sep 2008, 13:05 pm
#224 st.a.t.w:
Exactly. To make it even worse is that they want to replace him with one of the most erratic backs in SA. There is just no logic in it.
16 Sep 2008, 13:05 pm
#234 stodders:
hardest fairest tacklers, who u reckon?
i go 1. Os 2. Willy O 3. Collins
from back, no question, no better technique than Honiball.
16 Sep 2008, 13:06 pm
#226 WP Till I Die:
Henry Honiball, I too respect. Very erractic sometimes and unusual player but everything said about his defence is spot on. If his goal kicking was better, he would have shone more. Compared to Stransky and rest, Honiball is far the best flyhalf we had since Naas retired.
16 Sep 2008, 13:07 pm
#245 Robzim: I put Grant at 12 either, just someone who gets the ball wide.
#246 cab: Lima
16 Sep 2008, 13:07 pm
#244 stodders:
If only we could have a Carter. We would be untouchable.
16 Sep 2008, 13:07 pm
#241 Big Hit:
Apparently Gordon Brown was also “manufactured”.
He is run by Queen Lizzie via remote.
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