CJ’s Irish growing pains
8 Oct 2008
Leinster tighthead CJ van der Linde admits the European approach to the set-pieces will take some getting used to.
Van der Linde linked up with the Irish club at the end of the Tri-Nations. Having featured in a few matches, he has found himself on the wrong side of numerous refereeing decisions. The Springbok No 3 admitted the scrumming on northern paddocks is somewhat different to the set-pieces down south.
“I am not used to the way they have the scrums and the rucks so it is an adaptation you must make and get used to it,” he told the Irish Independent. “It is difficult to say who is right and who is wrong in a scrum because it is eight people against eight people and it can go both ways.
“Some of the calls were a bit funny so I will have to have a look at that.”
Van der Linde could be called up for the Boks’ UK tour in November, and will be hoping to gain some form ahead of those Tests with a strong showing in the European competitions.
The 28-year-old is in the first term of a three-year deal, replacing another Free State and Springbok prop in Ollie le Roux.
41 Comments
8 Oct 2008, 10:24 am
conisstency ios a word misisng from this OVS boy career for SA.
hot and cold
8 Oct 2008, 10:28 am
what are our two best TH props doing in Ireland?
8 Oct 2008, 10:39 am
Cj you don’t deserve the boks you traitor.
8 Oct 2008, 11:00 am
Oh please, CJ has haemmorhaged penalties and cards from day 1. This isn’t just a northern-hemishphere phenomenon.
8 Oct 2008, 11:13 am
#2 cab: Ireland have very few decent props, in fact I would go so far as to say, they have none.
8 Oct 2008, 11:17 am
It’s a sad indictment of the sorry state of our tighthead depth when we list CJ amongst our two best tightheads.
CJ has always been a weak link for the Boks, so this story does little to surprise me.
8 Oct 2008, 11:40 am
No place top hide, when it comes to scrumming in the NH.
You are soon found out if you are not a technical scrummager.
CJ will have to learn that a tight head in the NH is there to scrum, and not to score tries on the wing.
8 Oct 2008, 11:41 am
Sorry, top should be to.
8 Oct 2008, 11:42 am
Great with ball in hand, but weak at scrum time.
8 Oct 2008, 11:51 am
#9 Loosehead: We both agree that he’s weak at scrummaging, and he does look flashy (for a prop, if that’s possible) with ball in hand… but I don’t know if you have noticed – he has a tendency to lose the ball in the tackle more often than not.
How often do you see the ball ripped from his hands in the tackle, or equally when he takes the tackle and goes to ground, the ball turns up on the other side of the ruck? Too often for a man of his size and supposed “strength”…
8 Oct 2008, 11:54 am
#10 wooden spoon:
Poor technique.
But we have coaches who are too busy trying to reinvent the way the game should be played, instead of concentrating on skills, technique and decision making of the players.
8 Oct 2008, 12:10 pm
He was not what we needed in the 3N. Won’t cap him again. Beast, Mujati, Jannie, Heinke, Deon and John Smit are more than what we need at prop.
8 Oct 2008, 12:41 pm
CJ van der Butthead………….I remember him. Not the sharpest tack in the box if I remember rightly.
8 Oct 2008, 12:42 pm
One of Jake White’s blue eyed boy’s
How he got to 50 caps is beyond me
INCONSISTENCY should be his middle name
8 Oct 2008, 12:47 pm
#14 mshiniwami:
8 Oct 2008, 12:48 pm
#14 mshiniwami: Who else was there?
8 Oct 2008, 12:52 pm
#13 cane: Hey cane, how are things. quite agree with you and other comments made.
Too many penalties every time he pulls the boots on.
When are SA tight forwards going to concerntrate on completing their primary tasks before sitting out on the wing looking for glory? I see it week after week in the CC.
I also have a problem with the majority of SA prop’s when it comes to scrummaging technique. I’m a Lions fan through and through, and respect Heinke vd Merwe for his brute strength, but I fear for the lad when he comes up against decent opposition whith a good scrummaging technique.
The general underfoot conditions in both the NH as well as the land of the long white cloud generally force props into devloping a good technique IMO.
8 Oct 2008, 14:17 pm
#16 Big Hit:
BJ Botha…but he was a walking penalty as well.so we were and are still thin at 3
#17 Scrumdown:
On the NH i agree but not NZ who havent produced a plethora of world class prop except Hayman and Woodcock of late.Woodcock has matured in the last yr or 2 to be the world’s most complete prop.Even shading Hayman in my opinion.But Sommerville was scrummed to shreds by greenhorn Mtawarira earlier this yr.Struggled to dominate Baxter in last 2tests in 3N as well.He might be over the hill i fear.After that the cupboard is bare for them too. In Afoa,Tialata,Schwalger,Franks,Crockett,Johnstone they dont exactly have the most fearsome of prop stocks.
8 Oct 2008, 15:45 pm
CJ’s problem has always been that he is played out of position. He is a loosehead and he is playing tighthead. People who know Rugby, know it is as different as fullback is to flank.
His technique is designed around a loosehead scrumming, which is why he is slow on the engage, and he always has his wrong foot forward. The RWC Final was the first game he ever spead up his engage, which is part of why he negated Sheridan.
CJ is still young (by propping standards) and can still play some good rugby. He can be a fantastic asset for 2011. As long as he is kept in the no 1 jersey and not shoved into a 3. Ulster will do him the world of good.
8 Oct 2008, 15:52 pm
Gentleman
Nice to have all the experts here all in one spot, well Gerber aside (though he was an awesome winger) My question to all since I was branded as being biased – actually lets come out with it racist on another blog is the following.
How do you rate Eddie Andrews and Etienne Fynn as props? Simple question. All comments and opinions gratefully accepted.
8 Oct 2008, 15:52 pm
Oops I mean centre.
8 Oct 2008, 15:58 pm
#19 pedspin:
Eddie was probably the worst scrummager ever to wear a bok jersey.
Etienne could scrum a bit, but that was where it ended.
An international prop must be picked first and foremost for his scrumming.
If he cannot scrum, but can do a double scissors with Bekker on the wing and score under the posts, then he is not an international prop.
If he can scrum, as well as do the hard work in the line outs, kick offs, loose scrums, mauls, drives, and pick and go then he is a world class international prop.
8 Oct 2008, 16:00 pm
#19 pedspin: Not very good. They were all picked cause they could “hold their own”. Neither prop could dominate an opponent.
A good scrum revolves around your tight head (shorter generally) being able to attack the loosehead and the hooker. Carl Hayman was an expert at this, as he could wrestle two men at once. SA has for the past 7 years had a poor scrum cause we dont have a strong tighthead. If you have a weak tight head, you will always struggle. See Dunning having his neck shoved in by Os and Sheridan
Eddie and Etienne could stand- but not dominate. My personal opinion, although some might disagree.
8 Oct 2008, 16:08 pm
Thanks chaps that was pretty much my view, though I unfortunately fought a losing battle. Oh well we are all entitled to our opinion. He is welcome to his and I to mine. As long as we don’t insult or try and hide behind certain guises or agendas that is fine.
Cheers
8 Oct 2008, 16:16 pm
#20 pedspin:
Eliciting support on other threads are we…
#22 tight head: #23 Cheetha Champs:
Please read the later threads in the “Bech boys give sharks edge” thread paying attention to my debate with pedspin about selection of Fynn & Andrews as Boks.
PS:Please note that I in any post dont advocate neither as scrummaging powerhouses etc.My contestation is based on form presiding selection and whether they had deserved selection above their SAffa prop competition based on those seasons however lean they might have been.
As far as I can remeber in 01′ on Willie Meyer was better than Fynn especially consistency and he was first choice ahead of Fynn
And in 04′ Andrews was the best amongst SA props therefore warranting selection.It was a lean yr amongst tightheads yes,but he was the best in S14
8 Oct 2008, 16:24 pm
#24 mshiniwami:
Hi Mshini,
I have read the debate between you and have no intention of getting involved mate.
My view is simply based on what I know about the front row, and not on who should or should not have been selected.
I don’t care about history.
8 Oct 2008, 16:28 pm
#18 Cheetha Champs:
i dont have your knowledge of prop technique, but my gut instinct agree with what you say, which is that CJ is a natural LH since he has natural strength and is a fairly large unit. I think his strength allows him to hold his own at TH, but where CJ is better than any other frontrow forward in SA is at the cleanout. Sometime his technique is overzealous, but there is huge momentoum going into those collisions cos he is also extremely quick over the ground for a big man, not unlike Os. He is also still young in prop terms as you indicate.
andrews was a terrible TH, the best scrummagers was BJ botha who was the only SA TH who has not pushed backward in the last few S14 seasons. The last really powerful SA scrummaging TH was Visagie, but he did not have mobility needed at end of career imo.
8 Oct 2008, 16:43 pm
#26 cab: I am very worried about the SA depth at tighthead.
Our U21 side this year had a poisenous backline – Africa, Petersen, Mapoe, Ebersohn (x2), Brummer and co – but we lost to England in the rain cause they scrummed us all over the show. Our props were playing with roller skates on.
BJ is our best at the mo- although we need to make a plan SOON to get someone in.
Maybe Tim Noakes needs to give Brian Mujati some “juice” and at the same time, we should appoint someone like Dawie Theron to spend time with the boy and teach him some more technique.
8 Oct 2008, 16:55 pm
#27 Cheetha Champs: Couldn’t agree with you guys more – as I said on a previous thred NZ learnt a while back that the scrum is still key. They exhaused a lot of time and energy in the area making sure that a good platform was created for their backs and are now reaping the benefits with a decent crop of youngsters coming through. Same goes with England – legacy of Woodwa. The Frogs and Tinians have always loved it. South Africans have just naturally bred props to the point we have never had to nuture. We may be in for tough times…..Losing BJ was silly.
8 Oct 2008, 17:04 pm
#27 Cheetha Champs:
It looks like PDV will play Mujati as his starting tight head on the EOYT.
That will be a mistake.
He will get murdered.
Who he picks as back up tight head will be very interesting.
8 Oct 2008, 17:08 pm
#29 tight head: Who do you believe should be there, is BJ defintely out of the picture now that he plays up north?
8 Oct 2008, 17:15 pm
#30 pedspin:
I don’t know about the availability or politics surrounding the selection of BJ.
I do know this though:
Any coach with half a brain would have his name down first on a team sheet to tour the NH.
We will probably not see him selected.
That leaves a struggling and inexperienced Mujati, Jannie Dup who is improving steadily and a very important player to take on tour in Deon Carstens who is comfortable both sides of the scrum and who is now experienced and has been on a EOYT.
8 Oct 2008, 17:29 pm
dont think there’s much seperating mujati and dupplessis, both seem the best of an everage bunch, both still to young for those conditions and style of game. BJ and CJ are a no-brainer for that tour, along with Beast and Heinke.
8 Oct 2008, 17:36 pm
#32 cab:
I am assuming that BJ and CJ will not be selected.
8 Oct 2008, 17:39 pm
#33 tight head:
good god, surely not.
can probably play who he wants against scotland or wales, but surely will call these two up for england.
8 Oct 2008, 17:40 pm
#34 cab:
Well Cab, I hope you are right but I doubt it.
8 Oct 2008, 17:41 pm
#31 tight head: #32 cab: Boys I am seriously nervous – seems we have let some of our best props slip out of our hands. A lot of youngster leave early to play up north….. eish. Nothing worse than going backwards in a scrum. Going to be cold and wet up North this winter, not sure I can handle any stupid loses.
8 Oct 2008, 17:44 pm
#36 pedspin:
The selection and combinations of our forwards will be the key to success or failure on this tour.
I am not confident about the above.
In the NH you need hard forwards who do the dirty work and who are excellent at the basics.
You don’t need locks on the wing and loose forwards doing cross kicks from the fly half position.
That is why I am not confident.
8 Oct 2008, 17:56 pm
#38 tight head: tight head as per usual astute analysis. That day we lost to Scotland years back when our scrum was going backwards still gives me nightmares.
8 Oct 2008, 18:09 pm
I remember it well.
Rugby at the highest level is technical.
A short, compact, well drilled Scottish front row, with a low scrumming 5 behind them, all committed to the timing of the shove, were technically superior.
We have learnt very little since then.
Our national coach is more concerned with re inventing the game, then getting these technical issues right.
9 Oct 2008, 07:26 am
Whatever happened to faan rautenbach, bring that ox back.
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