When winning isn’t everything
15 Jun 2009
Ian McGeechan must have an ace up his sleeve if he truly believes the Lions are on track to upset the Springboks.
We’re done with the provincial matches that matter and in conclusion you have to ask whether they really have mattered. The British & Irish Lions narrowly avoided embarrassment in three of their five encounters and how different would the vibe be heading into the Tests if they had won only three from six?
There was the late surge that spared the tourists’ collective blush in Phokeng. There was the reliance on local errors – read the Cheetahs’ missed opportunities – to get them home in Bloemfontein. There was the nervous times at Newlands when they were facing an embarrassing draw with only six minutes to go.
The Springboks were favourites before the tour commenced and the Lions’ recent performances have done little to shake this popular belief. McGeechan leans on the comfort of results, but momentum isn’t necessarily all about winning. The six games preceding the Tests were always about building a unit to compete against the world champions, and although some individuals have impressed, the collective has yet to deliver to the point where the Boks should be worried.
It’s hard to comment until we’ve seen McGeechan’s Test side in action, but we can always speculate how those individuals are likely to come undone. The much-vaunted Jamie Roberts has been penetrative, but against what kind of midfield? Hanno Coetzee (Cheetahs) and Deon van Rensburg (Lions) were the centre pairing in the Rustenburg clash but were reserve centres for the two worst South African franchises in the Super 14. It doesn’t get much classier when you’re up against the Golden Lions’ Doppies la Grange and Jannie Boshoff or when you’re running at the Sharks’ second-string combo of Riaan Swanepoel and Andries Strauss. What has Roberts really done to have scribes around the globe telling the Boks to take note?
Let’s see Roberts make an impact against a Test defence, one that boasts a history of winning World Cups. The Welshman slotted in at centre the last time he toured South Africa in 2008 and failed to make his mark. Can you really see him busting through Jean de Villiers?
The other Lions individuals have been equally aided by local failings, Tommy Bowe scoring his fourth try of the tour thanks to the most ordinary WP defence. Mike Phillips has never been an issue for the Boks before and it’s not hard to understand why. It’s fine to snipe around the fringes when you’re playing against the provinces, but let’s see him do it when he runs the risk of a vicious rebuke courtesy of the Springbok loose forwards.
These Lions are a cut above our provincial sides, but the difference in class between the provinces and the tourists is not the same as the gap between the provinces and the Springboks. Some people forget that and this is why the Lions’ five consecutive wins have those same people worried.
The truth is McGeechan will know in his heart of hearts that the weakened provincial teams are still challenging his group of internationals in every department. His official line is that the development of his team is a process so mistakes are expected, but it’s hard to see them making such a big step up in the space of a week.
Just where is this ace that Geech is holding back, what does he know that we don’t?
The Lions will show their true hand this Saturday and all the speculation and mind games will cease. If you’re going to make a prediction and you’re going to make a bet, put money on the Springboks because all evidence past and present confirms their favourite status.
The McGeechan factor is the only reason there’s any doubt and the Springbok management have admitted it’s going to be tough to beat him. Fortunately, it won’t be the two management teams that square off at 3pm this Saturday. The world champions will front an untested British & Irish Lions combination and anything other than a victory to the Boks would make little sense.
The Lions’ coach hoped these provincial matches would help the tourists ‘come to terms with rugby in this country’. If he believes they now know what it’s like to be on the end of a Bakkies Botha tackle, then he’s the one that’s in for a surprise at King’s Park.
By Jon Cardinelli, in Durban
160 Comments
15 Jun 2009, 06:08 am
Losing DRAGONS!
15 Jun 2009, 06:17 am
McGeechan isn’t leaning on the comfort of results, everything they have been doing up to now is geared towards the 3 test series, the focus has not been on the warm ups but in preparing for the tests.
If you read Shaun Edwards column you’ll see that the Lions were prepared to lose games if it meant trying different combinations out, and try them out they did, they were forever switching things.
Jamie Roberts made a decent impact against SA last year in his first start at 12 for Wales who led the Boks after an hour. Jean De Villiers is nobody’s idea of a stellar defender and he is returning from injury so likely to be rusty.
Moreover, it was the weaker Lions side which was pushed close by the Cheetahs and WP so it would be unwise to derive anything from those matches.
15 Jun 2009, 06:24 am
You can’t judge a team based on their practice encounters. Look at the All Blacks: every World Cup they rack up 10+ try wins against weaker opposition and then get beaten. The Lions are clearly trying out combinations and moves and it’s natural that they won’t come off. There are obviously areas they need to work on, and the team for the first test won’t be the one that finishes, but they’ve shown enough to suggest they’ll at least front up.
15 Jun 2009, 06:28 am
Two main concerns: the Boks will be rusty and the obvious holes in the selections.
15 Jun 2009, 06:31 am
#2 Big Hit: So BH, honest opinion, what you expect for the weekend?
15 Jun 2009, 06:32 am
The Boks — and their supporters — are SMUG.
And undercooked.
Just like in 1999.
15 Jun 2009, 06:33 am
#2 Big Hit:
More Biggles
15 Jun 2009, 06:36 am
#6 TheTackler: At least they have not yet lost this year…
By the way, what in the world happened in 1999?
15 Jun 2009, 06:51 am
in 99 we lost the RWC semi after extra time against a freak larkham drop goal. no shame in that.
The ABs also lost in the semis…
that makes us about equal…and we definitely werent smug..
Teich was dropped…and we did not really fancy our chances
Right now I would definitely be supporting the boks..
The ABs are going to get a few hidings this year…and not just by the Boks
15 Jun 2009, 06:53 am
#8 Koos: The Boks haven’t lost because the Boks haven’t played. Oh, it was 1997 — not 1999 — when Martin Johnson’s unfancied Lions came to SA and whopped the cocky Boks who, a year earlier, had won their first 3N and thought they were bullet-proof.
15 Jun 2009, 06:55 am
#9 sharkiedubai: I think you will find he did not take his medication this morning and was trying very hard to refer to ’97 when we lost against the Lions. Makes it very hard to win an argument if you can’t even get the basics right…
15 Jun 2009, 06:56 am
Got that one wrong too! The Boks won their first 3N a year AFTER they’d been taught humility by the Lions.
Smugness is always the Boks’ undoing. And, let it be said, the ABs too.
It’s kryptonite.
15 Jun 2009, 06:58 am
yeah fair enough…in 97 no kicker ..but that was our own fault…no one else to blame.
I do not think we will make the same mistake this year..
like I said earlier…in 2009 I would much rather be a bok fan than an AB fan
15 Jun 2009, 06:58 am
#10 TheTackler: Ja, last Saturday morning you could have said the same about your team hey!
You are however barking up the wrong tree, there is very little smugness amongst the majority of Bok supporters. Worries about lack of match fitness and weird selections are the order of the day.
15 Jun 2009, 06:59 am
I would have preferred the first test to be in Jozi or Loftus..but still see a win for the boks by at least 10
15 Jun 2009, 07:00 am
#12 TheTackler: YOU MEAN LIKE ENGLAND IN 2004. SOOOO SMUG AFTER A LUCKY DROP IN THE FINAL. STOP THIS NONSENSE OLD CHAP. YOU ARE JUST LOOKING FOR AN ARGUMENT.
15 Jun 2009, 07:02 am
#16 JM: Nog ‘n naam vir jou lys, maar die hanskakie praat vlot Afrikaans.
15 Jun 2009, 07:03 am
#17 Koos: WIL JY NOU MEER. HULLE ALMAL HAAT DIE BOERE, MAAR PRAAT AL TE LEKKER DIE TAAL.
15 Jun 2009, 07:05 am
#17 Koos: HOEVEEL WORD PARTY OUENS HIER BETAAL OM TE KOM MOEILIKHEID SOEK?
15 Jun 2009, 07:06 am
#18 JM: nee jong, die een is van die Kaap af maar ek vermoed een of ander boerseun het sy lunchbox gesteel en hy is steeds die moer in!
Anyway, waar bly jou broer en wat het jy alles gesien hier?
15 Jun 2009, 07:06 am
#15 sharkiedubai: I’M NOT THAT CONFIDENT. IF PDV PICKS THE RIGHT TEAM, WE SHOULD WIN 3-0, BUT IF HE DOESN’T…
15 Jun 2009, 07:07 am
#19 JM: Fet mooi nokkel! keo drop net sy blog se naam by die sielkundige en siedaar, hier pop die pasiente uit…
15 Jun 2009, 07:08 am
To THETACKLER, 1999 was the World Cup when AB’s and their supporters were smug and got knocked out by the French and again in the 2007 world cup again and now you loose at home to them
15 Jun 2009, 07:09 am
#21 JM: Mmm but does he have the right squad to pick the right team from?
15 Jun 2009, 07:09 am
#20 Koos: HY BLY IN MACKAY. BAIE NICE HIER, LEKKER GE SKUBA DUIK.
15 Jun 2009, 07:11 am
#24 Koos: HY KAN NOG ‘N GOEIE SPAN KIES, MAAR ONS KON DOEN MET KIRCHNER, BRUSSOUW, EN BJ. WAT DINK JY?
15 Jun 2009, 07:12 am
NETNOU WEER TERUG.
15 Jun 2009, 07:12 am
#19 JM:
Al die moeilikheidmakers op keo kom uit dieselfde geweste oorspronklik, kyk maar mooi vandag as hulle opdaag, ongeag van waar hulle deesdae in die wereld woon.
Moet die wyn in die moedersmelk wees wat hulle kleintyd gesuip het….
15 Jun 2009, 07:12 am
#25 JM: Mynbedryf? Ek is net so entjie in die pad af van Mackay, in Brisbane.
15 Jun 2009, 07:14 am
#29 Koos: NEE, HY IS TANDARTS. MOET GOU HARDLOOP, MENSE WAT HIER KOM GROET. VLIEG MORE TERUG SA TOE.
15 Jun 2009, 07:14 am
#22 Koos: #26 JM: #23 whenwe:
SA has a strike rate of 50% in WC’s.
AB’s 17% (and that was achieved in an invitational contest without us being there).
15 Jun 2009, 07:15 am
#28 Pietman: Ja en dan is daar ouens soos Explayer, ook van daai geweste maar hy het die moedersmelk geskip…
#26 JM: If we come out and play to our potential we should have enough to overcome the Lions, simple as that.
15 Jun 2009, 07:17 am
#30 JM: Close, so hy boor ook en grawe gate…nou wanneer kom jy?
#31 Pietman: Ja, even the Aussies have a better strike rate.
15 Jun 2009, 07:23 am
#32 Koos:
Trossie was n bottelbaba, lol!
15 Jun 2009, 07:26 am
#33 Koos:
Ek sien dis n Ozzie lacrosse-span wat aangehou word in die ‘varkamp’.
Wat se sport is lacrosse, btw, daai Kanadese spel waar hulle die bal gooi?
15 Jun 2009, 07:27 am
#35 Pietman:
‘varkkamp’
15 Jun 2009, 07:27 am
#34 Pietman: Ja siestog, en kyk hoe het hy uitgedraai…
15 Jun 2009, 07:28 am
#35 Pietman: Ja met die hokkiestok met ‘n net vooraan.
15 Jun 2009, 07:32 am
#38 Koos:
Praat later,moet gou papierwerk gaan doen hier by die ‘village office’ (onse munisipaliteit).
Tjeers.
15 Jun 2009, 07:33 am
#39 Pietman: Cheers, watch out virrie varke!
15 Jun 2009, 07:43 am
Umm, from what I have seen Jamie Roberts has been quite impressive, especially comparing him to the rest of the unperfoming lot. And when did Jean become this world class defender? Regardless The Boks will win, comfortably.
15 Jun 2009, 07:52 am
#5 Koos: Not sure to be honest, would need to see the Lions line up. At this point, I would agree with the author, the Boks seem better placed to win.
#7 Rugby_Princess: G’moaning
#9 sharkiedubai: actually the Boks beat the ABs in the 3rd/4th place play-off in 1999
15 Jun 2009, 07:56 am
#42 Big Hit: On what do you base that? We have not even seen the Boks in action and the selection left a few holes from where I stand.
I can only think it is based on the notion that we ‘should’ beat you comfortably but I am not sure about that…
15 Jun 2009, 07:59 am
Winning is not everything… just it sure beats losing
15 Jun 2009, 08:01 am
#43 Koos: Home advantage, the Lions test team not played together before (a mistake imo), a lack of quality in the Lions back row, Bulls victory in the S14, altitude/heat, good goal-kickers and the 97 guys giving motivation, most of the injured players back. All points to good things for Boks.
But, you just never know.
15 Jun 2009, 08:02 am
#44 SpringbokSarah: apparently they’re the same thing according to PDV
15 Jun 2009, 08:07 am
#45 Big Hit: We will have to wait and see. The two issues for the Boks is lack of gametime and selection holes…tough to stick your neck out either way!
#44 SpringbokSarah: In a professsional sport it IS everything….unless you have a finger in the pie with the bookies!
15 Jun 2009, 08:08 am
#46 Big Hit: he’ll “bank” whatever he can get
I swear… I think he’s got the JSE and rugby confused
15 Jun 2009, 08:12 am
If the Lions have shown us anything from these warm-up games it’s that, whatever the game situation, they know how to win. Forget how they played or who they played, the scoreboard reads 6/6 at the moment despite using a lot of backup players and experimenting with combinations and plays.
I sincerely hope the Springboks and their management don’t have the same attitude as the Keo journalists.
15 Jun 2009, 08:19 am
Ian McGeechan’s ace, isn’t actually one of his players its his opponent! PDV can’t pick a team to save his life. With all the players available to South Africa as well as playing at home in the middle of the season as opposed to the end of a long season, he should win at a canter, but as has been pointed out by many people on this sight, some of his selections are insane given what he could choose from. Its going to be a lot tougher for the Boks then it should be.
15 Jun 2009, 09:11 am
While there is a class difference, the collective effort is always better than brilliant individual performances.
That’s where the BI Lions have the advantage. 6 games against 6 sides, regardless of their class, is 5 more than the Boks have had
15 Jun 2009, 09:12 am
#12 TheTackler: I notice you haven’t actually gone so far as to predict that the Lions will win any of the Tests.
Or do you?
My own view is that the few weeks off after the Super 14 will help the Boks, not hurt them.
The only factors that might count against the Boks are, firstly, a couple of silly selection errors, and secondly, the pedantic “old” rules.
But the gulf in talent between the Boks and the Lions is just so vast that these factors alone cannot possibly prevent the Boks from winning by a wide margin. Everything the Lions do, they appear to be doing in slow motion.
15 Jun 2009, 09:22 am
We still can’t ignore the fact that we have no specialist fullback; if Pienaar starts at 10 he’s not played for a very long time; we have no specialist tighthead to fall back on if Sheridan (or Juenkins more likely) gives Smit a torrid time and of course, there’s always the awful danger that PdV puts Rose in the squad!
The Lions are game-hardened and up against it… it’s when they perform best! And of course, you don’t have to score more tries than the opposition to win – I’d hoped we would remember that from the pain of ’97 but I do wonder sometimes.
15 Jun 2009, 09:27 am
#52 pierre: I don’t THINK the Lions will win the series, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they did. And the key reasons will be (1) poor team selections and (2) poor coaching. I think PDV is a weak coach and an even weaker selector. If the Boks win it will be in spite of their coach, and not because of him. Do you agree?
15 Jun 2009, 09:30 am
#53 BigScrum: It does seem worrying that PdV will be favouring Ruan at 10 instead of Morne, why not leave the bulls combos in tact.
15 Jun 2009, 09:33 am
It is not that the Lions are any good it is that SNOR is so BAD!
15 Jun 2009, 09:39 am
#54 TheTackler: I agree with you Tackler – the Boks have the greatest depth of talent in the world currently, but they’ve failed to pick specialists in two key positions, have chosen a few untested players (and left out the excellent, proven Brussow) and have got a near-moron for a coach. So yes, if they win, it’s likely to be in spite of PdV!
15 Jun 2009, 09:39 am
#54 TheTackler: I agree completely, I do think that the BOKs will win but wont be shocked if they dont.
@pierre I think that some game time would have been good for the boks, and i think SNOR avoided it so that no one would know who the team is, ie keep criticisms away until the DBN test but who could the boks have played? defiantly not a provincial side, maybe an islanders side?
15 Jun 2009, 09:41 am
#55 byoboy: Couldn’t agree more BYOBOY – as brilliant as he can be, the first test against a team you get to play only every twelve years is not the time to play a guy who hasn’t played a competitive match for months. Why wouldn’t you go with Steyn, who was one of the stars of the victorious Bulls side?! It means a tighter game but if we can seal the first test at least, we could get a bit more creative for the second perhaps…
15 Jun 2009, 09:42 am
#58 hoven: why not let the boks at least play for their respective provincial sides
15 Jun 2009, 09:56 am
#6 TheTackler:
… And how about the undercooked, beaten All Blacks? Do you know the Boks are rare rather than well done or you just on the Big *** band wagon?
15 Jun 2009, 09:59 am
#59 BigScrum: Difference is guys that the bloggers here seem switched on to the dangers and our coachs dont !
I expect Boks to win 2-1 but it comes down to an element of luck on the day and Geech has understood this better than our 3 coaches.
Oh but happy days if we are being misled deliberatly by the Bok brains trust !!!
15 Jun 2009, 10:02 am
#59 BigScrum: exactly man, a couple of drop kicks could be the difference between victory and defeat. They can bring Ruan in from the bench. I also hope (yes great hope) Snor thinks clearly with Schalk’s replacement and no.15. There is no room for experimenting and cocking around.
15 Jun 2009, 10:05 am
#62 bananas: why the hell aren’t they switched on to the dangers which are evident to so many bloggers? happy happy days if we are being misled.
15 Jun 2009, 10:06 am
#54 TheTackler: You haven’t really said anything there. Just hedged every bet you could. Come on, stick your neck out old chap.
15 Jun 2009, 10:08 am
I’ve been impressed by the Lions thus far except for the first game. If you haven’t then you’re a fool.
They can beat the Springboks.
With all the talk of the back 3 rotating positions, playing Danie at 6 and no specialist fullback to speak of i’m worried.
15 Jun 2009, 10:13 am
I have no faith in our Springbok coach nor in his assistant coaches.
Hopefully in 3 years time we could have Heyneke/rassie/Plumtree.
With all the talent coming through i’m sure we can start building from scratch again.
As for the present, i can only hope the boks win as many games as they can despite the poor coaching trio.
15 Jun 2009, 10:15 am
#62 bananas: Ha – Bananas, you’re bananas if you believe our coaches have seen this (apologies – very weak, but it is Monday morning). If they did see this, why have they picked Earl Rose for the ‘experience’?! Like Du Plessis picking Montgomery in ’97 – he played an 82kg full back out of position, against Scott Gibbs and expected him to take on the kicking duties when others had failed. So we’ve clearly not learnt our lesson!
15 Jun 2009, 10:15 am
winning isn’t everything – its the only thing
Can’t wait for Saturday. Time to silence the northern hemisphere media machine
15 Jun 2009, 10:18 am
#63 byoboy: Yip, Schalk’s replacement will be key – Russouw is awesome if played at eight or lock and if the game plan suits him. But seeing as Brussow showed just how effective he is at making tackles and getting on to his feet fast enough to turn the ball over, it’s simply insane not to pick him! Why wouldn’t you?! As for 15 it’s all good and well putting F Steyn in, but what about a proven full back who perfomed in the Super 14? Again, why not?! And why not a tigh head who performs strongly in the NH week in, week out? It’s not to say we can’t win, but we could’ve made our lives a lot easier I think…
15 Jun 2009, 10:22 am
#67 Shark_Logie: no Meyer back now!! but that won’t happen. PdV will be in until after the next WC even if we lost every single match.
15 Jun 2009, 10:26 am
#71 byoboy: Seriously, i watched an interview with PDV last night and the man makes no f#cking sense whatsoever!
How and why was he picked to coach the springboks?
15 Jun 2009, 10:26 am
#54 TheTackler: Yup, I actually do agree with all of that, except that I would nevertheless be very surprised indeed if the Lions won.
Snor is undoubtedly a weak coach, in addition to being a racist buffoon with a chip on his shoulder the size of Devil’s Peak.
Thankfully, though, we have a very strong captain supported by a several highly respected senior players who can take charge and pull the team through with or without Snor.
15 Jun 2009, 10:28 am
Can’t see the boks doing well:
1. No ball fetcher
2. No recognised tight head
3. Suspicious flyhalf
4. Adi is not the best defender (O’driscoll is going to have a field day)
5. A consistent kicker on the bench (best flyhalf ATM)
6. Fullback who has not even played in that position for quite a while!
15 Jun 2009, 10:30 am
DIT GAAT SARREDAG NET GROEN WEES!
15 Jun 2009, 10:32 am
I don’t know why journos in this country insist on contstantly portraying this overconfident “we are untouchable” tone. I’m guessing it stems from the top for the writers on this site as normally when Keo takes a stance all the other little ducklings quickly get in line.
I’m also not sure what all this big talk of JDV being such a solid defender that Roberts will be running into a brick wall talk is all about. JDV certainly does not have a reputation as a big hitter and I would say, if anything, his tackling is probably the weakest area of his overall game, which is strong.
15 Jun 2009, 10:33 am
#74 riaanf: WHO IS THE FULLBACK? Do you know?
15 Jun 2009, 10:33 am
#75 Staal: ons hoop so…..
15 Jun 2009, 10:34 am
#77 Shark_Logie: Apparently PDV is playing Frans Steyn in that position in the training against the emerging boks.
15 Jun 2009, 10:35 am
#54 ThePlumber: tackler in repeating what 99% of keo posters say shocker
15 Jun 2009, 10:36 am
I would have liked if John Smit was picked on hooker and a recognised tight head had been selected. Extra strength in the front row. That will make the selection for the bench easier as Smit can move to tight head later in the game…
15 Jun 2009, 10:37 am
#68 BigScrum: As I am flying 3000kms and have forked out for the tickets/accom I am pissed that they are all so casual.
I have not seen Shalk play live and was hoping this would be my chance. Pls tell me this is a wind up and he will play otherwise we really are in deep s*** for contemplating another player out of position. Remember how fantastic Shalk was in the days of rush defence … would be poacher turned game keeper.
Why cant they experiment in 3N ? If Rose is in the squad then I guess we know whats coming in the next few years.
15 Jun 2009, 10:42 am
Wanneer word die bokspan aangekondig ?
15 Jun 2009, 10:42 am
What a load of one-eyed biased tripe. I hope that journo doesn’t get paid for that stuff.
I must imagine that most of the Bok posters here are on the younger side and didn’t watch 1997. I don’t mean they’re read the result or watched the replays, but actually sat down to watch the games 12 years ago, because if you did, you wouldn’t be full of the ****, Boks to win 3-0.
These warm up games are acclimatise, practise combinations and gel a team together, to prepare for the Tests, but that is all they have been, preparation and match fitness. Winning them all is good, but the Tests are the prize. It’s not our fault they were depleted teams, we’d rather have played the full team, blame PdV for that, not us.
Anyway, we’ll se who’s right on Saturday, Lions to win the series 2-1 (in the same way as 1997).
15 Jun 2009, 10:46 am
#82 bananas: Banana there is speculation that it’s a wind-up, so here’s hoping. But even if it isn’t, they should still pick Brussouw because it gives us options. And couldn’t agree more with regards Rose – if you need to blood someone, put in in the Tri-Nations squad – to include him in the most important series we still play (RWC is clearly not a series) is insane. I hope your efforts don’t end in tears!
15 Jun 2009, 10:47 am
#70 BigScrum: I agree 100% man Brussow should be in, and Frans will also be out of position at 15, why they didn’t pick Zane? If Frans had been playing fullback for the sharks then it would have been ok but he wasn’t. Given the squad lets just hope it is in fact Frans at 15 and not any other ridiculous choice. Tighthead is cause for concern hopefully John will cope. Snor mustn’t be stubborn.
15 Jun 2009, 10:49 am
RIAANF – Hopefully that is surety. F Steyn at FB does settle the nerves.
I have a feeling and hopefully a good feeling that snor could be feeding Mcheeghan porky pies(pommie slang for lies)!!! By telling everyone he is going to play Ruan at flyhalf and a few other questionable selections, when all the time snor has already decided to go with the Bulls axis!!!
This would certianly put snor in a different light and show us that he does have a brain!!
15 Jun 2009, 10:52 am
#72 Shark_Logie: pdv has won everything with the junior bok teams and displayed his abilities as a coach, go & google his cv, it should be outthere somewhere…
15 Jun 2009, 10:52 am
#86 byoboy: More worrying is if we have John injured who are we calling in to replace him ???? another LH, talk about a stupid selection.
Would any of you guys get away with this sh*** in your jobs ? I didnt think so.
Lets hope for the best which is a shocker considering Boks are at home and World champs.
15 Jun 2009, 10:54 am
#87 race of tan: Aaaaah now if that was true then I would indeed accept his brilliance.
Anybody ready to bet money
15 Jun 2009, 10:54 am
#72 Shark_Logie: I know what you mean man, he doesn’t even answer the questions he is being asked, it’s fkn ridiculous he tunes such shite really. There is no doubt in my mind that he was picked because of politics. Meyer would have been far far better.
15 Jun 2009, 10:55 am
A lot of people are talking about the boks being “under cooked’ come saterday, but am I wrong but have Province not also been with out a match since the end of the s14? They seemed to be well cooked and ready for an upset!
The lions and those writing about the boks being undercooked, watch out, the boks have had a nice month off, while the B&I Lions have been playing non stop rugby since last year!
If the boks would be undercooked then the lions should surely be burnt out.
But neither will be the case this sunday!
Even without Burger! The boks will show the lions the difference that Jon is talking about!
Go bokke!
15 Jun 2009, 10:59 am
#84 Road_Hog:
I share your concerns, 100%.
We need to win the first test at the coast.
Coming back from behind at altitude will be hard (remember 1974 Newlands/Loftus), especially with our Bokke training at sealevel all the time.
2-1 to the Lions, if we don’t win in Durban.
15 Jun 2009, 11:01 am
#92 Breakdown Boy:
Good point about the Province side!
15 Jun 2009, 11:02 am
This would be my Lions and Bok team:
Lions:
Forwards:
Sheridan, Mears, Vikery
O’Connel, AW Jones
M Williams, Croft, Powell
Backs:
M Phillips, S Jones
J Roberets, BOD
Bowe, Monje, Byrne
Boks:
Forwards:
Beast, Busmarck, Smit
Matfield, Botha
Brussow, Smith, Spies
Backs:
Du Preez, M Steyn
De Villiers, J Fourie
Habana, Pieterson, F Steyn
15 Jun 2009, 11:03 am
#89 bananas: I know boet its laughable, but there’s always earl rose…
To have 4 wings in the squad with no specialist tighthead for back up is fkn stupid.
15 Jun 2009, 11:04 am
#94 Yetirat: Thanks. I received free tickets to the game and expected a complete massacre, I went in the rain and was supprised, I screamed my lungs out when J Peterson scored. Great game, but the game of the weekend was the u/20 boks beating a uge frensh team. Go bokke!
15 Jun 2009, 11:06 am
Ek meen dat selfs sonder ‘n erkende vaskop, fetcher, heelagter, en selfs met ‘n beseerde Ruan en JDV, en selfs met ‘n gemiddelde verdediger soos Adi, en selfs met FS op heelagter, en selfs sonder ‘n akkurate stelskopper, kan ons nogsteeds die BIL wen.
Dit kan egter soveel makliker en beter wees as ons die beste span kon kies, maar selfs met die groep soos hy is, kan ons nogsteeds wen.
Go Bokke !
Maar as ons gaan verloor …
15 Jun 2009, 11:08 am
If we had the following players in the starting 15 i would feel much more convinced:
3. BJ
6. Brussouw
15. Kirchner
Instead we will be targeted in these areas….especialy at 15. Expect Jones to constantly put in the tactical kicks….
15 Jun 2009, 11:09 am
#95 Breakdown Boy: Goeie span, sou net graag vir WO saam met JDV of JF wou sien, maar JDV en JF is ook ‘n goeie kombinasie, as JDV 100% reg is.
Hoe lyk jou ‘bench’ vir die bokke.
15 Jun 2009, 11:10 am
The pessimisim,negativity & racism on this site is nauseating.I bet if Pdv drops Schalk for Brossouw and we lose to the lions he will be blamed for dropping the legendary Schalk Burger.People have been going on about how he must not field rookies in a series that comes once every 12 years,well who is a rookie between Ruan & Morne?Hypocrites!Let Pdv make his own decisions because he has been given that mandate & support him & the boks rather whine behind your little desks wishing you were bok coaches.FFS the man has won a world cup with the junior boks.Enough of this negativity.Be proudly saffa or sommer immigrate finish & klaar!
15 Jun 2009, 11:10 am
#96 byoboy:
anyone have the stats of saturday’s game
or know where i can find it?
i’m especially interested in turnovers conceded/ won and who the players were that conceded/ won those turnovers!
hope someone can help!
15 Jun 2009, 11:11 am
#95 Breakdown Boy: looks about right….
15 Jun 2009, 11:12 am
#101 Koos van der merwe:
thank you, koos
well said!!
15 Jun 2009, 11:14 am
#99 Shark_Logie: As ons hierdie 3 manne kon inbring van’buite’ sou ek ook meer gerus gewees het, maar dit gaan nie gebeur nie, so ons moet die beste van die groep maak wat daar is.
15 Jun 2009, 11:15 am
#101 Koos van der merwe: Hy maak dit baie moeilik vir my wanneer hy kak aanjaag soos hy doen.
waar is Kirchner?
Hoekom Rose?
Waar is Brussouw nou dat Schalk beseer is?
Waar is BJ of enige ander ordentelike vaskop stut?
Nee man, as ons verloor gaan dit nie Brussouw se skuld wees nie.
15 Jun 2009, 11:18 am
#99 Shark_Logie:
There seems to be talk from “people close to the Springbok camp” that Frans Steyn will run on at Fullback which should help eliminate at least some of our vulnerability.
Scrums are going to be tricky though, even completely disregarding Sheridan I think we will struggle to hold our own. We have the class and big match temprament to win though.
15 Jun 2009, 11:19 am
#100 BDB: Reserves:
Lions: E Murray, Reese, D O’Callaghn, Heaselip, M Blair, O’Gara, Williams
Boks: BJ Botha, Carstens, Rassouw, Kankowski, Kocket(Januarie does not deserve to be there), Ruan Pienaar, W Olivier
(Pienaar covers flyhalf, wing and fullback, Olivier 12 and 13.
Russow can replace B Botha at the 50min mark and Kankowski can come in as the impact player when the game opens up!)
15 Jun 2009, 11:19 am
#106 Shark_Logie:
As ons verloor sal dit Peter se skuld wees volgens jou.
En as ons wen?
15 Jun 2009, 11:19 am
#106 Shark_Logie: Toemaar, sy post was net ‘n koos vd merwe grap, moet dit nie te ernstig opvat nie.
15 Jun 2009, 11:20 am
#106 Shark_Logie:
i’m looking for the stats on saturday’s game
any idea where i can find it?
(you seem to know everything
so
i’m quite sure you can point me in the right direction!)
15 Jun 2009, 11:20 am
#101 Koos van der merwe: sorry KdubbleOS, sonder n gemoan en die deskcoaches sal dese sit nie bastaan nie, maar bly jy maar glo, man.
15 Jun 2009, 11:21 am
#109 cris: Ons moet maar wag wie jy kies, Ruan Pienaar kan dalk ons almal veras en die leeus stikkend speel, en dalk het Percy vir F Steyn en Pienaar leer skop!
15 Jun 2009, 11:21 am
#109 cris:
die players wat die gameplan gechange het!
15 Jun 2009, 11:22 am
Soory nie wie jy kies nie maart PDV
15 Jun 2009, 11:22 am
Frek, my tikkery is weer in sy….
15 Jun 2009, 11:23 am
#109 cris: As ons wen gee ek die Keyser wat hy toekom.
Maar hy probeer dit regtig moeilik maak vir homself, die span en die ondersteuners.
Kan die man nie net die beste spelers op die veld plaas nie?
15 Jun 2009, 11:24 am
#111 ashley: do your own donkey work mate…..
15 Jun 2009, 11:27 am
#118 Shark_Logie:
as i said
..
you seem knowledgeable
15 Jun 2009, 11:32 am
I bet you the bok players can feel the negativity around the squad.Lets give those boys positive energy.It seems like most bloggers are waiting for Pdv to fail so that they can say we told you so,”daai swart mannetjie was nie goed genoeg nie”.The classic one is this one ;if the boks lose its Pdv’s fault,if they win the boks showed Pdv the finger and adopted their own game plan.Pathetic,Pathetic,Pathetic.
15 Jun 2009, 11:32 am
#106 Shark_Logie:
waar is Kirchner?
KIRSCHNER IS UNTESTED IN A TEST MATCH AND SHOWED IN THE FIRST TEN MINUTES OF THE S14 FINAL THAT HIS DECISION MAKING IS NOT YET UP TO SCRATCH.
Hoekom Rose? NOBODY KNOWS, EXCEPT THE FACT THAT HE WAS WITH THE BOKS EOYT LAST YEAR AND HAS AN IDEA OF THE PLAYS/STRUCTURES ETC.
Waar is Brussouw nou dat Schalk beseer is?
BRUSSOUW IS NOT IN THE SQUAD.
Waar is BJ of enige ander ordentelike vaskop stut?
NO PLAYERS WERE SELECTED FROM ABROAD.
Nee man, as ons verloor gaan dit nie Brussouw se skuld wees nie.
15 Jun 2009, 11:34 am
#120 Koos van der merwe:
i AGREE 100%. TWO-FACED IMBECILES…
15 Jun 2009, 11:35 am
Dit is nie ‘n kwessie van slegte vs goeie spelers nie, maar beter vs nog beter, of op vorm spelers vs spelers wat nie op vorm is nie, of half beseer is.
Ruan is baie goed, maar nie die op vorm losskakel nie. Die logiese keuse is MS, wat op vorm is, en saam met FDP en WO gespeel het, en die top puntemaker was in S14.
Dieselfde met die heelagter kwessie: Zane en Stefan was op vorm, nou wil hy iemand kies wat lanklaas daar gespeel het.
Brussow en Stegmann op vorm, Burger nie.
WO is in kombo met FDP/MS/Hab/Kichner, dit is nie dat JDV sleg is nie.
Hierdie argumente het dus niks met ‘rassisme of pessimisme’ te doen nie, dit is goeie rugbyvrae wat gevra word, dit is waarvoor daar ‘n blog is soos hierdie.
En laat ek herhaal, sodat niemand verkeerd verstaan nie: gee nie om watter span Snorre kies nie, ek sal my longe vir hul uitskree saterdag.
Die argument is net: ons kan ‘n soveel beter span kies, maar kom ons kyk wat gebeur saterdag.
Die GROOT probleem is: as dit verkeerd gaan saterdag, dan gaan dit moeilik wees om reg te maak.
Weereens: go Bokke !
15 Jun 2009, 11:37 am
Burp!
15 Jun 2009, 11:39 am
#120 Koos van der merwe: So, as hul verloor is dit “Player 23″ se skuld ?
15 Jun 2009, 11:39 am
#124 Staal: Gesondheid ! Jy kan maar net nie oor daai S14 babalaas koom nie …
15 Jun 2009, 11:40 am
#101 Koos van der merwe:
Don’t take it too seriously. It’s inevitable and much to the jounralist’s delight it will never end.
The same slating was going on when JW was coach by bloggers and journos alike (inlcuding KEO himself). What happened? Keo got a sniff of some mula with a JW autobiography, JW won the RWC and he was hailed an almighty Messiah by all and sundry.
15 Jun 2009, 11:44 am
#126 BenDieBliksem:
jy al oor joune?
15 Jun 2009, 11:46 am
#128 ashtray: Hik … hik … hik …
15 Jun 2009, 11:51 am
This article sounds like bragging and boasting, just as in 1997. The Boks are not the All Blacks, who win 90% of their games and as SA fans we should come out of our fantasy world. The SA coaching set -up is inferior to McGeechan who actually has played on the greatest Lions XV, and perhaps one of the best XV’s ever assembled, the 74 Lions, and guided the 97 Lions to an underdog victory in which the Boks scored all the tries and the Lions scored all the points.
This is what you can bet on: McGeechan will have picked every single player as the best specialist in his position, after watching 7 games in a row. He will have decided to play low risk attrition rugby and milk the “old” laws for penalties where he has more (and better) kickers than my sister has knickers. His XV will be tested in various combinations through an unbeaten, confidence boosting run. Meanwhile the Boks train at low altitude (ask a Kenyan as I am how dumb that is) for the low altitude test. And then move to high altitude. This is called “handicapping”. One more sign of the Bok “mismanagement”.
Can we look at the last para and substitute “PdV” for “McGeechan”? Will it read the same? No it won’t and I would not be overconfident and boasting about Bakkies testosterone over the Lion’s grey matter.
15 Jun 2009, 11:51 am
PDV said at the beginning of the S14 that he will select his squad on s14 form, there are exceptions to the rule, like Burger and JDV, they had a non-eventfull S14 but are still the best in there position, if they are not 100% then play someone else or in the case of Brussouw, at least draft him into the squad!
But Ruan Pienaar does not fall under this execption, he has not played a full seison in the pivot role and is thus untested where as M Steyn has won a S14 title in that position and was the key player to the victory, he is the only complete flyhalf in SA, he can run, pas, kick, and drop very well and they way the Lions are playing cheat rugby you want someone that can punish them for every mestake, M Steyn can do that, Ruan can not, even before he busted his knee. And Rose… let me not get started on him, he is not a quota player his selection is a favour to uncle Rose.
15 Jun 2009, 11:51 am
#102 ashley: don’t have the stats mate
15 Jun 2009, 11:52 am
I really think the SA boys are very OVER confident. We had the easiest of world cups (no France, NZ, Oz) and lost the tri nations last year. We’re gonna be rusty and I think it will be a 3 point ball game either way in the first test.
15 Jun 2009, 11:58 am
#133 Desertfaffa: That easy world cup **** is a load of bull!
If they (the “mighty AB” who lost to france AGAIN, Wallabies) were so great they would have at least made it to the semis but they choked and never did.
We beat fiji (who beat wales), we beat Argintina (who beat France/ Ireland and Scotland), and we beat England twice (who beat Aus/ France)
So shut up
15 Jun 2009, 12:04 pm
#120 Koos van der merwe: don’t worry about it koos, in their convoluted minds pdv has never won anything & has never worked before in the junior setup with players like spies, pienaar & the like. And the assumption is that these players know more about rugby than pdv..let it slide boet…
: #127 Yetirat:the praise singer parading as journalist – craig ray penned jake’s book, as far as i know keo didn’t have anything to do with that book…
15 Jun 2009, 12:13 pm
As n man die media en sport berigte so lees is Piet Snot Snor besig om D…. van hom self te maak. As hy nie die kombinasie van Spies op 8, Du Preez 9 en Morne 10 kies nie ondersteun ek die Leeus.
15 Jun 2009, 12:16 pm
#134 Breakdown Boy: We beat England twice and Argentina – great world cup.hmmm… COme on guys we weren’t tested champs. NZ or France could have taken us.
15 Jun 2009, 12:19 pm
he doesnt have anything up his sleeve.
What u see is what u get, too many Englishmen in the side, thier backrow is substandard with poor turnover skills. The Boks will get 60% of the ball, with our locks and bakrow excelling in those depts. The Lions might get lucky, but I honestly cant see them making the grade. Boks by 12. Morne to start, Ruan on the bench, Steyn at fullback ( only real mistake really )centres Juan and AD, Wynand on the bench.
15 Jun 2009, 12:22 pm
#106 Shark_Logie: “waar is kirchner”.soek jy hom?ek dink hy is by sy huis.
15 Jun 2009, 12:25 pm
#130 peterg123: Mate, you cannot believe the arrogance and whining being shown on the B&I side:
eg Keith Wood: “Yes. The Springboks have been disrespectful to the Lions. It is wrong and unacceptable. The lack of the main Springbok players has contributed to a series of games that will not be remembered at the end of this tour.”
“Another radical thought is that if South Africa really does seem to have lost interest in midweek Lions game with half-strength sides performing in front of thin crowds, why not repeat the Argentine exercise before an abbrieviated Lions tour of South Africa?”
“I don’t think South Africa have the physicality in the front row to compete with ours,” said Guscott,
Guscott also believes the Lions will benefit from what he says will be a predictable approach from South Africa.”They won’t change the way they play,” he said, “they’ve played it that way for years and I don’t think they will move away from the physical confrontation that they love. They’re egos don’t allow them to. They’d much rather run through them than around them, it’s in their very nature, so that’s what we’ve got to match.”
I, for one, am sick of the arrogance and disrespect shown by the Lions coaches with their faux-intellectual, build-em-up, break down the other side approach in the media.
They actually think they will win this series 3-0 chaps. They do not believethe Sprigboks are good, invoking the struggle against Fiji in the world cup, the loss against Ireland and other pointers of Springbok fallibility.
The B&I Lions are a dirty side and they are going to target (similar to ABs with O Driscoll) our key players such as Bakkies, Matfield, Du Preez, De Villier. Our guys will have to stand up to this even at risk of themselves being labelled dirty. The first test may have fireworks and their could be a few cards. Gatland, for one, is frustrated with his lack of success against the Boks – he is going to get the pack to play dirty.
15 Jun 2009, 12:28 pm
#137 Desertfaffa: Could have should have blah blah……
We also could have klapped the All Blacks and France. Both those teams were not good enough to even get to the point to face us.
If they were so deserving, why didn`t they make the grade against teams that we beat?
Your logic is very flawed.
15 Jun 2009, 12:29 pm
#101 Koos van der merwe: with this post you will be a marked man for the rest of the day.just wait until pietman and his gang turn up.
15 Jun 2009, 12:32 pm
#141 The-Pill: C’mon guys, show a bit of rugby know-how. We all know that if you beat a side, it doesn’t mean that you’re automatically better than sides they beat. Jussus what do you guys watch on the weekend.
15 Jun 2009, 12:34 pm
# 140. Heavens Game
Thanks for this. of course I agree there is a lot of turkey talk from the Lions and the Brit media, trying to egg on the Springboks into losing cool. But I still think fans and management should be taking this series very seriously indeed, especially the crucial first Test where the lions have the continuity and altitude advantages. We have witnessed some very good Lions players out there and they are canny fellows.
PdV has improved his ideas of the game at this level. If we can play the combination of basics and then “what’s in front of you” when and if opportunity is there, we will surely beat them. That seemed to be the pattern of PdV after he had digested the tri-Nations loss. Let’s hope he keeps it.
15 Jun 2009, 12:36 pm
All I am saying is that we seem to think that we are soo good but we won a world cup that we weren’t even stretched with and lost a tri nations pretty freeken badly, need I remind you 6 played, 4 lost, 2 won.
B&I’s 5 games on the trot won. We have been sitting on our arses. It is going to be a very close game.
15 Jun 2009, 12:37 pm
#136 Kalahari Kid: gaan gerus voort want n man wat span wil verander omdat die coach sekere spelers moontlik nie gaan kies nie is maar taamlik dig.
15 Jun 2009, 12:39 pm
#142 mk:
I am here.
What’s your problem Mkhonto?
15 Jun 2009, 12:44 pm
#143 Desertfaffa: Ai Fa Faaa Ha Ha haaa.
That was your argument. You are going on ifs and buts, not me.
Fact is. SA is deserving RWC winners. We lost the Tri Nations because we wasn`t good enough.
15 Jun 2009, 12:47 pm
#148 The-Pill: jussus bru, wat mekaar. lets leave that anyway. prediction on Sat?
15 Jun 2009, 12:55 pm
#149 Desertfaffa:
Jy ook een van daai ouens wat jou punt probeer maak deur heeltyd die ‘Groot Naam’ te roep…watter woestyn woon jy in, die fletse se duineveld?
15 Jun 2009, 13:00 pm
#150 Pietman: Arabian. Is a woestyn an angry garden?
15 Jun 2009, 13:06 pm
#151 Desertfaffa:
O, ok thx.
Welkom op keo, btw.
En hier hou ons godslasterlikheid en politiek uit die gesprek, keo se regulasies.
15 Jun 2009, 13:17 pm
#149 Desertfaffa: Anyway, you are rightfull to your oppinion.
As we do not know what either team will be it is hard to make a prediction so I will put it down to 2 results based on one key decision: Who plays pivot for boks?
Result one: Monrne Steyn plays, kicks every penalty that lions give away, which should be around every time we form a ruck in there half, so a garenteed 12 – 20 points. This forces the lions to play according to the rules which makes the game more open and allowes the boks to run rampant, of course BOD and co will test us and we will give some penalties to so I would sugest a score of about 35 – 20 for the BOKS.
Result two: Ruan Pinaar plays and misses 40%-50% of his penalty kicks, but still we win because we have a very experienced side but will have to work harder to put the lions under pressure. 27 – 20
15 Jun 2009, 13:17 pm
#152 Pietman: MMmm, ek sien hier’s ‘n dowwe drol wat wil sweets he….
15 Jun 2009, 13:20 pm
#154 grootblousmile:
Ja, ‘Umkhonto’ is steeds besig ou maat, maar wat, hy is rerig kragteloos sonder Langkop en Namakwaland….hy praat maar net….
15 Jun 2009, 13:23 pm
Again this site is ******* depressing..Vitriol at its best
People are touting Brussow as the saviour of Bok rugby all of sudden.He is a ROOKIE in the Test arena,with only 1 test to his name and even though he had a great S14 he still has the propensity to give away a plethora of penalties which will even be worse with the employment of the global ELV’s.
Frans Steyn has long been touted as a 15 by all and sundry on this blog,many a time being suggested as a great there one day and should be played there.PDiV finally chooses him there-the desk coaches call him an idiot for doing so.And have suggested we filed a rookie 15 (Kirchner) and a rookie 10 (Morne Steyn) in this series..
PDiv cant win in most of the circles in SA rugby and the public anyway so why not pick what he wants and be the owner of his destiny.Thats all any MAN wants.
Plenty of hypocrites on here..
Its ridicilous
15 Jun 2009, 13:24 pm
#150 Pietman: wat gaan met jou aan?as n persoon nie met jou saamstem nie dan kom hulle altyd van die “fletse” af.het iets sleg met jou gebeur daar op die “fletse” of wat of het jy maar net n “backward mentality”?
15 Jun 2009, 13:27 pm
#157 mk:
Nee jong, ek ry draaie om die fletse.
Maar jy het darem gister te veel op verkeerde mense geskel, selfs Transformasie het jou stilgemaak…..of onthou jy nie.
Jy moet stadig met die rassisme man, die mense hier hou nie daarvan nie, **** jy?
15 Jun 2009, 13:31 pm
#158 Pietman: Die “fletse” is die pitsweer van Slaapstad…. onheiligheid broei daar !
15 Jun 2009, 14:04 pm
#156 mshiniwami: So Mwishi you are happy with playing a wing at FB and Nokwe another “rookie” at wing ? What about playing a no8 at 6 as well as the no2 as no 3 ?
The bloggers are entitled to express opinions about ALL the Bok coaches purported selections – not just PdVs.
BUT when you take the top job you get shot at, rememeber Jake White he got kicked every week by bloggers and politicians !
And one PdV had no problem putting the boot in to the incumbent Bok coach during a Bok tour of UK !!!
Suck it up man, we are all fervent supporters and entitled to express opinions. This team belongs to SA not one man. Many coachs have found this out the hard way.
Have your say
You must be logged in to post a comment.