Get inside Big Vic’s head
29 Sep 2009
Victor Matfield is the undisputed lineout king, but what gives him the edge over his opponents?
Click here to subscribe (12 issues for R199)
In the latest issue of SA Rugby magazine, on sale this week, Eddie Jones and Gary Gold provide unique insight into Matfield’s ‘sixth sense’ at the lineout, while the player himself explains exactly what he does when the ball’s about to be thrown in.
Matfield also talks openly about his insatiable hunger for success, why playing 100 Tests for the Boks would mean so much to him, fears that the Boks are peaking too soon before the 2011 World Cup and his coaching ambitions.
Also in the new issue of SA Rugby magazine:
– The key to the Springboks’ Tri-Nations triumph
– Big Debate: Should John Smit be playing tighthead prop for the Boks? Robbie Kempson says yes, Ollie le Roux says no …
– Why Juan Smith is irreplaceable
– The departure of Frans Steyn has left Peter de Villiers with a selection headache at fullback. Percy Montgomery and André Joubert rate the leading candidates for the position
– South African club rugby continues to be plagued by violent incidents involving players, coaches and spectators. One man, though, believes his relaunched initiative will effectively tackle the problem
– How Dawie Theron has reignited the belief at Griquas
– Sharks centre Waylon Murray on his injury nightmare, getting back into the Springbok set-up, and his future plans
– When Harlequins were caught faking a blood injury during a European Cup match last season, it resulted in a record £259 000 fine for the club, a three-year ban for their director of rugby, and a four-month ban for the player involved. SA Rugby magazine finds out exactly what happened and what the implications of ‘Bloodgate’ are for the game in England
– It’s as though he’s never been away. Never shattered that Achilles tendon. Never had to fight his way back through six months of hard slog just to run up and down a rugby field again. it’s the latest remarkable feat in the career of Dan Carter
– Once the most hated rugby player in South Africa, Clyde Rathbone recently quit the game after a long injury battle. He explains his decision, reflects on the highs and lows of his career, and rates the current Springboks
PLUS: Six of the best match-altering tackles (and all of them legal)
212 Comments
27 Sep 2009, 09:58 am
for me Vic the most nb player to nurse through to 2011….
27 Sep 2009, 10:16 am
Victor Matfield bloody well hypnotises all his opponents to completely lose focus, surely? Phenomenally good lock forward.
Right up there with all the absolute all-time grand legends of that mighty second-row engine-room like Colin Meads, Frik du Preez, Willie-John McBride, Gordon Brown, Tiny Naude, John Eales and Martin Johnson.
No doubt about it.
27 Sep 2009, 10:19 am
#2 TheTackler: Jeepers are you feeling well??
Temperature perhaps???
Cant believe the praising of a Bok??
Go sit down lad….you feeling faint??
27 Sep 2009, 10:36 am
#2 TheTackler: And Mark Andrews, Louis Moolman, etc.
27 Sep 2009, 10:50 am
I always call it like I see it, regardless of nation, creed or colour.
The Taj Mahal is arguably the most aesthetically perfectly-formed building on earth while the Voortrekker Monument is probably not.
Toyota build far, far infinitely better cars than any of the German lux big-three, MB, BMW and Audi-VW-Skoda
Stuff like that.
27 Sep 2009, 11:01 am
Big Vic uses those caterpillars above his eyes to signal Bismarck and to hypnotise the opposition. You have to love him though
27 Sep 2009, 11:59 am
would have been nice for the cover to show Vic lifting the 3N trophy.
27 Sep 2009, 12:05 pm
after Steyn Ludik has to be the next best 15 in the land.
27 Sep 2009, 12:08 pm
Met him on Friday when I went to purchase tickets at Loftus. Great guy. Phenomanol rugby player.
27 Sep 2009, 12:27 pm
It’s amazing how the 5min subs always manage to worm their way into the centre of every “victory picture” !
27 Sep 2009, 12:57 pm
Ollie le Roux also said he wouldn’t have brought back John Smit and Victor Matfield from overseas after the world cup.
Anything he says, I take with a handful of salt… Unless he was talking about where to find the best burger in town.
27 Sep 2009, 14:28 pm
#8. I think so too. The thought of seeing the torpedo garyowen again disturbs me!
27 Sep 2009, 14:48 pm
#8 RedLion:
We’re not that short of 15s, are we?
27 Sep 2009, 16:41 pm
#5 TheTackler: Sorry to hear that you drive a Corolla. Didn’t think people admit that type of thing in public.
27 Sep 2009, 16:42 pm
#10, amazes me as well. For example ricky january carrying the match ball like it was his own in the last 3N match v NZ i mean come now… And sorry to say, ollie le roux is a legend prop for sharks and all but umm, for someone with less than half of either Matfield or Smit’s caps to say something like that just sounds suspect
27 Sep 2009, 16:43 pm
#10 The_Green_Machine_is_a_Mean_Machine: Those 5min subs are strategically placed in victory pics.
27 Sep 2009, 16:46 pm
Forgive me, the most capped springbok sub at 43 caps (on bench) and played for stormers and cheetahs. His argument holds no bearing
27 Sep 2009, 18:40 pm
The Bokke, have a good season, can they do it for the next 3 0r 4?
27 Sep 2009, 18:46 pm
I must say rathbone’s choice must seem very bitter sweet, had he taken JW’s offer i think his career might have had a very different bent to it. Could have been a great springbok winger, imagine he and Habana on each side, frightening.
27 Sep 2009, 18:48 pm
fabien juries try this weekend was unbelievable. tackling was bad in that game tho.
27 Sep 2009, 18:49 pm
#19 cab:
He made a decision that was far more important than rugby, he didn’t want to live behind a six foot wall and a 9mm under his pillow, silly I know.
27 Sep 2009, 18:57 pm
Had a run-in with Vic a couple of years back, more or less the same time Jake sent him home too.
I was not directly involved but I witnessed his attitude towards a fan. At that stage he may have been too big for his massive boots, but Vic is no doubt one of the greatest lock forwards in modern rugby and we will find it hard to replace him one day.
Seems to have matured tremendously.
Go Vic, stay with us till 2011.
27 Sep 2009, 19:05 pm
#22 PissAnt: Boks will be like the ‘Dad’s army’ by the time they get to the next WC – not too dissimilar to the English when they won in 2003.
27 Sep 2009, 19:10 pm
#21 NZINCHINA:
yip that might well have been his reason, but the alternative was greatness, Springbok greatness, with the talent he had, i would’ve kicked myself.
27 Sep 2009, 19:11 pm
#23 kwas:
So what are you saying they’ll probably win it?
27 Sep 2009, 19:13 pm
#24 cab:
That was the reason, and he probably would have had the medal, don’t know the guy does he seem worried about it?
27 Sep 2009, 19:13 pm
#22 PissAnt:
yeah i’m no great fan either, but who knows perhaps his arrogance is just a cover, def undisputed lineout king tho, and i reckon he has no problem with that.
Bakkies would be the bigger loss imo, Becker could always replace matfield.
27 Sep 2009, 19:14 pm
#27 cab:
He dominated this year which is fantastic, in the last 3 or 4 was he that dominant?
27 Sep 2009, 19:15 pm
With respect NZ had no second row this year.
27 Sep 2009, 19:16 pm
Certainly not SA’s problem but he wasn’t up against much this year, has to be a fair comment.
27 Sep 2009, 19:19 pm
#28 NZINCHINA:
yes imo he was, i doubt there had ever been such a good lineout jumper, and i am not keen on the guy’s personality.
27 Sep 2009, 19:20 pm
#31 cab:
So from 05 to o8′ he dominated the AB lineout?
27 Sep 2009, 19:21 pm
#30 NZINCHINA:
thats true but imo he’s been beating the nz lineout and others for a while now, even with williams there. it was always the aspect we’ve shaded nz over the last 2-3 years, the difference this year is that imo we’ve actually exceeded the ABs intensity and committment at the b/dm which has not been usually done before.
27 Sep 2009, 19:22 pm
#27 cab:
Was never a big fan, but this guy demands respect.
#29 NZINCHINA:
I think SA will struggle to replace a Bakkies more than a Vic for some reason.
We have some promising locks in SA I must say.
27 Sep 2009, 19:22 pm
#29 NZINCHINA: Would be good to see Ali back next season. Some competition for Big Vic. Mind you, problem more at hooker for the Blacks. Absolutely useless at throw inns.
27 Sep 2009, 19:23 pm
#32 NZINCHINA:
Let’s put it this way…
The Vic/Bakkies combo was seldom dominated.
27 Sep 2009, 19:23 pm
#32 NZINCHINA:
imo, he’s given the nz lineout an absolute hiding in the last 3 years 2006-2009.
27 Sep 2009, 19:24 pm
#33 cab:
Happy to concede he was all over us this year, but taking a look at the tapes from the last three years when won the Tri Nations can’t see the dominance you are talking about.
27 Sep 2009, 19:24 pm
#32 NZINCHINA:
Greg Rawlinson…
Now there is someone who talked a great game, but seldom produced.
27 Sep 2009, 19:25 pm
#36 PissAnt:
You might be right but clearly that wasn’t enough the results tell you that.
27 Sep 2009, 19:26 pm
#39 PissAnt:
Journeyman, one of your.
27 Sep 2009, 19:26 pm
#38 NZINCHINA:
Vic can play his game with Bakkies on hand, when we lose either one, the other one is not as effective.
It is a massive bonus they play together for the Bulls too.
In fact, I think the fact that our whole front row plays for the Sharks and the locks for the Bulls is a massive advantage for the Boks.
27 Sep 2009, 19:27 pm
#41 NZINCHINA:
And the headmaster picked him for a couple of tests as soon as Jake mentioned he is looking at him for the Boks…
27 Sep 2009, 19:28 pm
#27 cab:
yeah, bit of a big bok literally, but nevertheless one has to respect his sheer ability lineout time, it is phenomenal. I was actually a big fan before White picked him, and he nearly did not for a long time there. I think SA could potentially have an unbelieable pack in the tightloose if a tighter lock was picked too, so i can def see White;s thinking, but he developed the lineout as the Bok attacking platform. Bakkies and Juan are excellent jumpers too and old Spies is also 6ft 5 or something, not many places for the oppo to hide on the throw. can also get alot of momentum of back of lineout.
27 Sep 2009, 19:28 pm
#40 NZINCHINA:
You guys get Chris Jack and Ali back, you will be sorted.
27 Sep 2009, 19:29 pm
#45 PissAnt:
Jack has the brain, and Ali the mongrel.
27 Sep 2009, 19:30 pm
#42 PissAnt:
Best lock combo in the world but to date for the Bulls itS yielded very little silverware,
27 Sep 2009, 19:30 pm
sorry, last one meant for PA at 34.
27 Sep 2009, 19:31 pm
#47 NZINCHINA:
They basically dominated the Currie Cup scene since 2005, plus 2 Super 14 titles…
I reckon they have plenty silverware.
27 Sep 2009, 19:32 pm
#48 cab:
Yeah Jake had his head screwed on right to get confidence back in the Bok side. No doubt.
27 Sep 2009, 19:33 pm
#46 PissAnt:
Jack’s too old and big now now for the real topclass stuff, this was their one player who actually could give matfield a go and did about 4 years ago. Williams is alot more athletic, got alot of bluster mongrel but not in the league of Bakkies or Thorne, the meneers who boss the b/d. nz also have a problem with the aging thorne who is older than bakkies but superfit.
27 Sep 2009, 19:34 pm
#45 PissAnt:
Look this year we all know, we lost becasue we had no lineout ( and the Bokke were very good), get that sorted and we will be hard to beat, I for one have no problem with the Bokke winning this year, best team blah blah and best coach ( he he).We have you twice at home next year so pretty sure we’ll do a lot better, you can’t win the Tri Nations every year impossible.
27 Sep 2009, 19:35 pm
#51 cab:
Ask Vic who he rates -Williams.
27 Sep 2009, 19:36 pm
#49 PissAnt:
Sure but not S14
27 Sep 2009, 19:38 pm
S14 dominance is Canterbury nobody gets near them. I hate the farkers but they have all the silverware.
27 Sep 2009, 19:38 pm
#53 NZINCHINA:
i have no dount the ABs will be back, but i dont believe williams will be your salvation, and in my humble opinion, you are tring to do the wrong thing and will be playing into SA hands by trying to compete in this position. williams is not in the league of matfield come lineout time, but who knows. i think the ABs could have gone much closer if they’d gone back to their ruthless strenmths.
27 Sep 2009, 19:42 pm
#52 NZINCHINA:
I have said it before and I will say it again.
Your problem is your coach.
Henry has hit a brick wall and he cannot seem to get around or over it.
As long as he is there, the AB’s are going to struggle.
27 Sep 2009, 19:43 pm
#56 cab:
Cab it was your year this year, simple as that it happens. The Ab’s had won it the last 4 in a row so we got beaten this year, contrary to what a lot think its not the end of the world losing to the Bokke happens and it happens to us more than any against any other team, no shame losing to the Bokke painful but no shame.
27 Sep 2009, 19:43 pm
#54 NZINCHINA:
They won 2 Super titles in 3 years…
And they will be tough to beat next year looking at the draw.
27 Sep 2009, 19:45 pm
#57 PissAnt:
Henry’s done well tho, but yes of late, some desperate decisions.
They say he is a bit theoretical.
I dunno, but the selection of Donald at 12 was a strange one.
However, the ABs have been hit with a helluva lot of injuries this year, but so were the Bokke in 2006 when klapped.
27 Sep 2009, 19:45 pm
#57 PissAnt:
Disagree great coach, poor by his standards this years but he raised the trophy 05/06/07/08 so I’m not going to bag him.
27 Sep 2009, 19:46 pm
#58 NZINCHINA:
Still the greatest duel in world rugby.
It is the one team we want to beat, the others are just nice, but a NZ victory is sweet.
27 Sep 2009, 19:47 pm
#60 cab:
The Ab’s never get clapped, sure we lost 3 times to the Bokke this year but you never clapped on the score board, and the otehr habd we have clapped you many times over the last ten years.
27 Sep 2009, 19:47 pm
#58 NZINCHINA:
LOL, we shall see, yes NZ have been dominant, but i think the Bokke are now getting back into it and now know, not merely believe, they can beat NZ away too, which is a new thing since emerging from isolation, next year will be huge.
27 Sep 2009, 19:48 pm
#60 cab: #61 NZINCHINA:
I am not disputing Henry’s record as coach, it is brilliant.
I am saying he has hit a spot a lot of coaches do sometime in their careers, and it is tough to get out of.
It started in 2007, and I reckon they still did not digest the World Cup disappointment then, and it is eating them even now.
27 Sep 2009, 19:48 pm
#62 PissAnt:
Well of course, we all agree on that, this year hurts I’m sure you can relate to that to that feeling.
27 Sep 2009, 19:49 pm
#63 NZINCHINA:
No thats true, the ABs don’t get klapped. Tho when MJ went over for his hattrick in 2004 i did wonder what was going on.
27 Sep 2009, 19:51 pm
#65 PissAnt:
i think poor robbie deans was a bit hasty, he could still do great things with oz, but like rathbone perhaps might have achieved his potential with his mother country?
27 Sep 2009, 19:52 pm
#66 NZINCHINA:
Let’s hope this is the start of many more battles.
I am out, cheers gents.
27 Sep 2009, 19:53 pm
#67 cab:
Yes good game for the Bokke, what was the winning margin that day?
27 Sep 2009, 19:54 pm
#69 PissAnt:
Cheers pissed.
27 Sep 2009, 19:58 pm
Prett close
For: 1424 Points Against: 1210
W 341 22 July 2000 Christchurch, Jade Stadium 25 – 12
L 343 19 August 2000 Johannesburg, Ellis Park 40 – 46
W 350 21 July 2001 Cape Town, Newlands 12 – 3
W 352 25 August 2001 Auckland, Eden Park 26 – 15
W 362 20 July 2002 Wellington 41 – 20
W 364 10 August 2002 Durban, Kings Park 30 – 23
W 371 19 July 2003 Pretoria, Loftus Versfeld 52 – 16
W 373 9 August 2003 Dunedin, Carisbrook 19 – 11
W 379 8 November 2003 Melbourne, Telstra Dome 29 – 9
W 387 24 July 2004 Christchurch, Jade Stadium 23 – 21
L 389 14 August 2004 Johannesburg, Ellis Park 26 – 40
L 397 6 August 2005 Cape Town 16 – 22
W 399 27 August 2005 Dunedin, Carisbrook 31 – 27
W 409 22 July 2006 Wellington Stadium 35 – 17
W 412 26 August 2006 Pretoria, Loftus Versfeld 45 – 26
L 413 2 September 2006 Rustenburg, Royal Bafokeng 20 – 21
W 421 23 June 2007 Durban, Absa Stadium 26 – 21
W 423 14 July 2007 Christchurch, Jade Stadium 33 – 6
W 433 5 July 2008 Wellington Stadium 19 – 8
L 434 12 July 2008 Dunedin, Carisbrook 28 – 30
W 437 16 August 2008 Cape Town 19 – 0
L 449 25 July 2009 Bloemfontein. Vodacom Park 19 – 28
L 450 1 August 2009 Durban, ABSA Stadium 19 – 31
L 452 12 September 2009 Hamilton, Waikato Stadium 29 – 32
27 Sep 2009, 19:59 pm
#62 PissAnt:
No question, compare the Boks efforts of Brisbane to Hamilton, as if there was every any doubt.
Its a strange thing what happens to a Springbok when they take on the ABs and its something they all feel, even still with professionalism, its the one game the boks invariably get up for however kak they might be.
i was watching a tape of the ’56 tour and one of the more eloquent Boks Wilf Rosenberg made me laugh my arse off at times, they also had an old leathery afr ou (who looked like charles bronson but only tougher) who was also very amusing, those games were like wars – he said something along the lines of ‘the NZ ppl will give you everything off the pitch, but nothing on it.’
27 Sep 2009, 20:01 pm
#70 NZINCHINA:
i think it was 42-24 or something thereabouts, so 18 points is nothing, we’ve been rogered by 50 plus by the english at twickenham, which is quite honestly left me with psychological scarring, it was the longest most painful f’cking nightmare i have ever endured.
27 Sep 2009, 20:04 pm
#74 cab:
We have also put 50 past you twice but having the Pomes fark you in the ar*e with 50 would have hurt you a lot more because those arrogants cu*ts have no idea.
27 Sep 2009, 20:08 pm
#75 NZINCHINA:
yes, very true.
twice, i only remember you giving us a particularly severe arse pounding at loftus, which is amusing since that the homeground of bravado. actually the loftus faithful are very knowledgeable, thats just before the klippies&coke bites, then the stands looks like the remnants of some sort of medieval battleground.
27 Sep 2009, 20:08 pm
#71 NZINCHINA:
I am busy making food so wont comment as often.
But I asked Cane the other day what succession plans NZ has in place post 2011, because it seems from comments guys are only staying (the few that did) for that, to get the elusive WC.
27 Sep 2009, 20:11 pm
#76 cab:
Ha ha went to a Braii up there many years after a game, crikey an interesting experience…..
27 Sep 2009, 20:12 pm
#77 PissAnt:
No succession plan just win the fu*cking thing…
27 Sep 2009, 20:13 pm
Key for Bok’s now is to start changing gears. If we sit on laurels and not read the situation as it unfolds we get caught napping. Matfield is probably being groomed for captaincy by Pdv which I think is a mistake. He has the ability to manage the line out and command respect as a 2IC leader in the pack but I don’t think he’ll make a great captain. Yesterday against the Cheetahs the bulls almost choked under him. He is not a good candidate for bok captain even though he’s probably been promised the post and he probably believes he’s destined to be the one to deliver the goods at 2011WC. If I’m Pdv or bok management I don’t go down that road though I’m afraid thats exactly the road they going to go down, and I doubt we do the deed with Matfield at the helm.
27 Sep 2009, 20:15 pm
#80 skopskiet:
Plenty of time Skop, lets see how you get on next year.
27 Sep 2009, 20:18 pm
#78 NZINCHINA:
ja, its actually normally pretty good-natured stuff, they just like their beer, rugby and braai. end of. makes alot of sense actually. what more is there?
#80 skopskiet:
yeah, think he’s always had half an eye on the captaincy, he’s a bright guy but the captain should be someone who leads by example and puts their body on the line with 100 percent committment, rather than delegating imo.
27 Sep 2009, 20:21 pm
#82 cab:
Yer most of that, except these guy keep getting thier guns out of the back of their pick up trucks and asking me what I thought about their potential for personal protection with these particular firearms, sorry fellas I have know idea but the beer is good.
27 Sep 2009, 20:23 pm
#79 NZINCHINA:
I hear you.
#80 skopskiet:
If there is one thing I would love for people to debate or write more about it is captaincy.
I also agree grooming Vic is wrong.
Leaders play under captains but are not the one-off leaders or main captains once put into the position.
I have asked (myself included) who could ever succeed John…
I am yet to come up with an answer.
27 Sep 2009, 20:24 pm
#83 NZINCHINA:
yeah they’ve cut down on all of that, it used to be ridiculous, now i believe the firearm control are more strict, i remember going to nightclubs in joburg when my pals would check their guns into the cloak room, it was absolutely absurd, never really understood it, big army culture.
27 Sep 2009, 20:27 pm
Matfield is bright and even likeable but very fragile in a leadership scenario. He simply does not have the charismatic clear headed overview that is required from a top international captain and I fear that Pdv don’t realize this. Smit has carried the team even under Jake who was nowhere without Smit. Now Pdv realizes that Smits tenure is limited and he needs a backup and he’s investing all his faith in Matfield. I’m afraid we may come to face some hard learned facts when this happens and a more suitable captain should have been earmarked. I know who my candidate would have been, but the bok’s are going into the next stint beyond 2010 without a proper succession plan, and it could seriously come around to haunt us when these hard facts need facing.
27 Sep 2009, 20:29 pm
#85 cab:
As I said none of my business but was sightly different to what I had been used to back home, in saying that they were very hospitable and loved footy so all good and of course had a to have a quick walk on the Loftus turf, must be a kiwi / saffa thing pretty impressive ground.
27 Sep 2009, 20:31 pm
#86 skopskiet:
i dont particularly like Matfield as a person, and i do not know whether Watson would be right either, he is too pushy, but i suppose Cronje was like that when not tossing games for leather jackets, smit strikes a good balance – he’s a bit low key and flies under the radar, but perhaps that is what is needed for a ‘dirty’ springbok team, in any event, at present he is totally deserving of the captaincy.
he is actually busting a gut out there at the moment, i just dont know how much longer he can do it for.
27 Sep 2009, 20:31 pm
#86 skopskiet:
What about Burger, hes got the required intellect?
27 Sep 2009, 20:36 pm
as tough and bitter the pill might be for everyone concerned to swallow PA is that the next best captain in this country, and for my money perhaps even the very best option almost immediately is the one that may very well lift the CC trophy against most odds this year.
Yes WP have done an amazing turnaround in recent months and ask yourself who is fundamentally responsible for much of it, yes coaching and management and perhaps Rassie behind the scenes, but look what transpires on the field, who is the one rallying the troops and dealing with the ref and monitoring the opportunities and lifting the morale from the front. Beyond Smit we don’t have a suitable captain screaming out with confidence except if they willing to bury the ideological hatchet, then Watson is the one to carry the flame, even as tough a pill to swallow as it way seem for most.
27 Sep 2009, 20:38 pm
I like Burger, but the SA public seem to prefer the midget pinball wizards.
Dunno what sort of captain he’d make.
How much intellect does one need?
Its rugby not chess.
Wat is fout met fokvoort ou doos mentaliteit?
27 Sep 2009, 20:42 pm
nope, it may be a tough pill to swallow, but it does not make it the truth, Watson has been given a rough ride idelogically, but some of that was self-imposed, it takes two to tango and i personally would not pick him with the current looseforwards in SA, but sure perhaps he is worldclass, we’ll see at Bath where there should be no idealogical conditioning to cling too.
27 Sep 2009, 20:45 pm
sorry Nzinchina can’t see Burger as the captaincy candidate. In fact Burger was given the Stormers captaincy for a couple games this year and lost handsomely, soon after he got injured and Watson took the reins by default and the team never looked back after that and since then have actually progressed from strength to strength. I say again beyond Smit the next best captain in this country is the one heading for Bath. All ideology aside he is head and shoulders the natural born leader to take the reins on. Tough as it might be for most to accept it.
Will be interesting to see how the remaining games in this years CC comp unfold, if WP actually win under Watson then my assumptions will be validated.
27 Sep 2009, 20:49 pm
I doubt WP will win if the sharks play their best players in the final, but the reason WP are a success is becuase Erasmus knows how to coach and drill a forward pack, where for once there are tightfoward grafters like nlauw, liebenberg, van zyl, louw and vermeulen.
The Sharks will win, i’d say easily, but erasmus is wiley.
27 Sep 2009, 20:51 pm
let us put our idealogical beliefs to the test then.
i will happily be proven wrong and admit as much.
27 Sep 2009, 20:57 pm
#90 skopskiet:
I reckon if Watson can get in a good place he will be good.
The time away from SA shores might just prove to be the tonic – it was for Percival.
Luke currently however divides more than what he unites nationally.
With a good manager like Morne du Plessis in the Bok setup sure – he did it for Francois when the Tiaan Strauss thing was big news afterall.
27 Sep 2009, 20:57 pm
We talking captaincy now. Smit is not the best tight head prop in the country, neither is he the best hooker in the country. Neither was Francois Pienaar the best No.6 flank in 1995 but he was the man with the leadership charisma to carry the team to the title. Mallet dropped Teichmann for someone who he deemed a far better gifted no.8 and so lost the base of his foundation. He made Joost captain and lost his plot though still came mighty close.
Beyond Smit there is noone to take this team on, not Chilli, not Potgieter, not Matfield, not Burger, and not Fdp, maybe only one with the leadership credentials is Juan Smith but I don’t know if his body will hold out. So swallow it or don’t but next best candidate, and not even next best but the one actually knocking on the door is the little pariah Judas scape goat that everyone loves to hate. Believe it or not, but if they can’t make the correct call and very soon, we going down hill soon after that.
27 Sep 2009, 20:57 pm
1. Beast 2. Bismarck 3. Smit (Jan Dup) 4. Sykes 5. Muller 6. Deysel (Botes) 7. Alberts 8. Kanko
9. Kockett 10. Pienaar 11. Mlovu 12. Hernandez (strauss) 13. Jacobs 14. JP 15. Terreblance
Good luck beating that side, on idealogical grounds or whatever.
27 Sep 2009, 21:05 pm
no need to swallow anything since he’s not even being chosen to represent the springboks, let alone captain them. the reason for that is first he fought with JW, then he incensed the boere by calling them the D-word, and then he unbelievablty fought with PdV.
If anyone would have lent over backwards for Watson it would have been PdV, but due to his personality (no-one else is to blame) that goose was cooked too, good and proper.
Not bright at all, he was in the side and might very well have become captain, but his own worst enemy.
27 Sep 2009, 21:16 pm
PA the divisiveness you talk about is possibly created more from the status quo than from Watson. I believe both sides were at fault and I can’t assess which side was worse. Jake and John closing ranks and creating the furor or Cheeky pushing for his own ideological or political ends and trying to elevate his son beyond what his immediate requirement was. Luke was caught in the cross fire, and seems Pdv also railed against the political manipulation and withdrew his support for the guy.
However what they all missed and what I believe Rassie and maybe one or two others have recognized is that Watson is a natural born charismatic leader, the type of individual that true captains are made from, like the Fitzy’s and the Pienaar’s and the John Eales’ and Martin Johnsons of the world. Smit had the quiet fortitude of an intelligent and natural leader, Watson somewhat more fiery and aggressive, but as far as true leadership capacity goes, you cannot fault the guy. Far better candidate than Burger, Fdp, Matfield, Bismark, Chilli or Potgieter altogether. Whether the management and coaching team are capable of performing the miracle of getting the Pariah to be welcomed back into the fold is a complete other question. But paint it anyway one likes, Watson is to my mind undoubtedly the most pertinent suitable option for the job.
27 Sep 2009, 21:22 pm
No, no – there also comes a point in time when the pariah status needs to actually be questioned. It is not for everyone else to fit around the needs and requirements of LW.
Where i agree is that the fathers of these men should stay clear out of it, since it has nothing to do with them.
27 Sep 2009, 21:24 pm
#101 cab: Agree.
27 Sep 2009, 21:26 pm
i can see why schalk burger gets upset, along comes this upstart giving everyone orders, some ppl dont work like that, someone tries to push you around and you a certain type of character, you dont get pushed anywhere, you push back.
27 Sep 2009, 21:28 pm
WP will beat that overrated team cab then you might have some swallowing to do, Will be quite a sweet victory actually if Watson lifts the trophy in Durban with Smit and the others that chased him away watching on. Can’t wait actually for this little cookie to crumble.
Blaauw, Liebenberg, Harris,
4 lock, Van Zyl, Louw, Vermeulen, Watson.
Duvenhage, Grant, Toomua, De Jongh, Welsh, Aplon, Chavanga, Nakalavuki, Pietersen
Will eat that overrated Sharky outfit for breakfast in fact thats if Cheetahs don’t do it first. Much more concern about Cheetahs and Bulls then soft bellied Sharks especially Muller and co in the engine room.
27 Sep 2009, 21:31 pm
Evening guys, I’m on the Province/Cricket thread. Watsons problem is that, as an idealistic youngster, he didn’t take note of the fact that the bulk of the Bok team still regarded the ANC as the terrorist enemy. It might not have been concious, but it’s a mindset that the majority of white South Africans still have.
27 Sep 2009, 21:32 pm
#104 skopskiet:
LOL, not going to happen, your passion clouds your judgement, your ideology wins out over reason, every now and again it might do so, but statistically and rationally i will be right more times than you, imo, but lets see.
Same thing with JW and his style, you did not like the man, but you merged that with his rugby coaching ability.
27 Sep 2009, 21:36 pm
#105 David: What? Speak for yourself. I am white and SA. ANC terrorists, enemy?
Wake up! Talking bout yourself no doubt.
27 Sep 2009, 21:40 pm
#105 David:
maybe, but i dunno about that, the captain of griquas is a black guy, cant honestly believe that is altogether true, the old school will def have viewed the ANC as the enemy but not so sure that applies to the youngers… ppl gnerallly tend to be a bit weary of pushy upstarts regardless of political persuasion.
27 Sep 2009, 21:45 pm
I’m not talking about racism, but the fact that the ANC, amongst the white population is still demonised. Luke was/is an outspoken proponent of the ANC and admirer of his father.
27 Sep 2009, 21:46 pm
#105 David: what? Is that what those blokes @ free state university were thinking?
27 Sep 2009, 21:47 pm
#108 cab: Are you guys arguing who is black and white and acceptable and not acceptable as captain….and who is ANC?
I’m getting al confused between rugby and politics here.
Old school..enemy? What are you saying?
27 Sep 2009, 21:47 pm
#109 David:
yes on an ideological basis i agree with all of what you say, hell on an ideological basis i agree with all of what Watson has to say about the sprinbok jersey and the hallowed Danie Craven, the point that i am making tho is that he has not only fallen foul of White, but appears to have rubbed everyone up the wrong way, even those aligned with his ideals.
27 Sep 2009, 21:49 pm
#111 batman:
lol, i think its all being thrown into the mix at the moment.
27 Sep 2009, 21:50 pm
Fault you may say is the upstart, I look at the management of the players. Sure the kid may have been a c’cky young upstart so what does the coach do. Either work with the nature of the individual or you cast it out the kraal and make him the black sheep. I believe White realises his folly in how he dealt with the issue but only belatedly.
James Small, Dalton, etc were not such easy individuals to deal with but if the coach worked with the character of the players they bring the better aspect to the party. White had the opportunity to incorporate all of Watsons abilities in 2006, he chose the opposite and turned a ravaged jaundiced blind eye to his capacity and so he lost 49-0 and at the same token created a pariah setup that never got healed. White was far more the architect of the nature of this stand off than Watson was, he had the power to change it and admit his folly but his ego would not back down and admit he needed a fetching flank in 2006, so he landed up losing 49-0 instead and almost his entire credibility which was only resurrected by E. Jones and the easiest of WC draws in history.
27 Sep 2009, 21:50 pm
#109 David: “the fact that the ANC, amongst the white population is still demonised”
And you claim not to be a racist?
27 Sep 2009, 21:54 pm
#114 skopskiet: What would the score have been if Watson played?#113 cab: Can’t keep up…….
27 Sep 2009, 21:56 pm
i think White does realise he should have treated the situation differently in hindsight, but i do not believe he did it for idealogical reasons, i may be wrong, but he treated schalk britz the same way and said he would pack his bags for him when pushed by Britz on his non-selection.
White was one of those ppl who was just as stubborn and was not going to be dictated to. Matfield and AJ were two other players White was very circumspect about, rightly or wrongly. He wanted ppl with a team ethic and buy-in imo.
27 Sep 2009, 21:59 pm
“White was one of those ppl who was just as stubborn and was not going to be dictated to.”
Thank goodness PdV learned that from JW.
27 Sep 2009, 22:04 pm
you say JW created a pariah setup that never got healed, but i still struggle to see what exactly he did to do this, all he did was not select someone who to your mind (and many others) should have been selected, the same could be said for schalk britz not so?
White left, PdV took over and selected Watson and was big mates with the family, and then what happened? White had nothing to do with what happened next. sorry, i don’t follow that.
On the hooker situation, interestingly JW at the time said he preferred his hookers to be of a certain type, i.e. he preferred liebenberg, who is in fact the current hooker and quite possibly one of the reasons WP are doing so well.
27 Sep 2009, 22:04 pm
David is quite correct. Watson was not only up against an arrogant egotist of a coach who could not be bigger than his own short sighted self righteousness, but he was up against the entire ideology of the players and the supporters of the game and fathers of the players he had to try and play alongside.
He was cast as the sh’t stirring enemy even before he took the field, and if he wasn’t a ja baas, nee baas, drie sakke vol baas *** licking adoring disciple like some these coaches want their players to be then he gets called a beer fetcher and all other manner of tripe to try divert the attention from the real issue at hand, that the coach and the ideological heritage they trying to promote is directly contrary to the attitudes they are pushing.
So Watson could not win under the prevailing circumstances just a pawn in the game between his father the political activist and the coach the stuck up egotist fool looking to promote his own self seeking agenda and losing handsomely in the process. Till E.J and that fortuitous WC came along.
27 Sep 2009, 22:07 pm
#118 batman:
its a quality you better have in SA rugby, cos you will meet stubborn hard-headed doffos like nowhere else. He’s just won the 3N in magnificent fashion and has been singled out by some group called TARC as a “traitor” to his country for not doing his bit on transformation. ridiculous.
27 Sep 2009, 22:09 pm
#115 batman:
I’m not talking about racism. I’m talking about the political polarity that exists in South Africa between black and white. How many white friends do you have that voted ANC in ’94, when service delivery couldn’t be used as an excuse? Why didn’t they vote ANC?
I’m just trying to point out a socialogical reason why Luke was a divisive influence. Not make accusations of racism.
27 Sep 2009, 22:11 pm
sharks would love to meet with wp in a semi or final at the tank.
but the bulls are such regular visits for finals and we really enjoy taking their cash.
27 Sep 2009, 22:13 pm
watson was never a **** licking drie sakke vol seun, he was completely the opposite, he was given elevated attention becuase of his family’s political ideology, and if Burger did not like him for his pushy nature, i feel that is quite understandable.
but my question remains, if it was just JW, why did PdV stop selecting him, surely he was not also influenced by this cabal?
27 Sep 2009, 22:15 pm
#122 David: no man david.
what does that have to do with luke white in 2009?
seriously man, 1994 and who people voted for is not really relevant here imo.
27 Sep 2009, 22:15 pm
TARC?
Jeez, just give the man credit. He won and it’s good enough for me.
27 Sep 2009, 22:16 pm
EJ came along for a ride, that was JW’s team completely, they were going to win the RWC regardless, it was an incredibly well prepared and crafted outfit – the professionalism of which increased exponentially with JWs takeover.
27 Sep 2009, 22:18 pm
watsons time has come and gone.
he will not be here for the next wc as he will be playing overseas and soes anyone seriously believe that he will be picked post 2011 as a starter for the boks?
i just hope cheeky’s gransons dont have to live with the same persecution complex.
27 Sep 2009, 22:19 pm
#125 rangerman: luke watson, sorry, the cricket is killing me.
27 Sep 2009, 22:22 pm
#125 rangerman:
I’m talking about a mindset. Luke was divisive because of his politics. The only reason I mentioned 1994 was to highlight a division between black and white South Africans.
27 Sep 2009, 22:25 pm
The real question i would like answered is whether a JW coached Bok team would beat a PdV coached Bok team?
27 Sep 2009, 22:27 pm
#128 rangerman: I hope Cheeky’s grand son’s don’t play rugby at all.
27 Sep 2009, 22:28 pm
#130 David: ok.
but surely you cant draw some kind of comparison between the general white view of the anc in 1994 and 2009 and use that as an analogy to explain luke watsons reception by the bok team without expecting a challenge?
imo its a bit of a stretch.
luke is divisive because of what HE does and says. not because of how black and white people voted in 1994 (when exercising their freedom of choice).
27 Sep 2009, 22:29 pm
sorry been talking with my son from Sweden on the phone so couldn’t follow the discussion. Looks like captain Graeme Smith won’t be able to steer the wallowing ship all alone while the wickets keep tumbling on the other side. Too bad they all folded like flies around him.
27 Sep 2009, 22:30 pm
#131 cab: i dont think so.
#132 batman: i wish them all the happiness in the world. may the sins of the father not impact on them.
27 Sep 2009, 22:31 pm
#131 cab:
I don’t think JW is a coach so much as a manager. Look at the Lions currently.
Anyway, I’m off to bed, ‘night guyd.
27 Sep 2009, 22:33 pm
anyway, i am out.
cheers all.
27 Sep 2009, 22:33 pm
#136 David:
LOL, thought you might have liked that one.
27 Sep 2009, 22:34 pm
#137 rangerman:
cheers ranger, good luck to the sharkies.
its tough to be no 1
27 Sep 2009, 22:34 pm
#135 rangerman: Sins?
Everybody deserves happiness, in fact, you are the architect of your own happiness, I believe anyway.
27 Sep 2009, 22:46 pm
its all such utter bullshit, where they should just get on with it, hell have a democratic election for the selections or get an independent 3rd umpire in from the UN without racial ideologies – just excuses, same as the referee, get on with it.
27 Sep 2009, 23:04 pm
how divisive is Luke Watson actually, only as divisive as those that cast him as divisive,
according to John Smit, Jake White, Schalk Burger and his dad, rangerman and cab, and possibly 80% of white south african rugby supporters, they believe Luke Watson is divisive and should go away and play his rugby in Bath. Yet how about those that play in the current team he captains, how about those that have been close enough to him to recognize the qualities that all those that were challenged by his strength of character or his so called divisiveness and value the qualities of his natural inborn mature leadership qualities.
So the damage due to the fear and ridicule that is the natural bugbear of South African rugby politics is such that Luke Watson will never perhaps be the leader of players that he might have been under other much more normal society standards.
I say Jake White was incredibly small minded under the circumstances and now we are faced with a situation where beyond John Smit there is no natural leadership succession plan in place and not even one remotely anywhere on the horizon because the beer fetching natural leader is off to play his rugby in Bath, due to the fact that Schalk Burger, John Smit and even Pdv regard the strong minded kid as a pariah divisive outcast who has no business playing rugby here with his peers.
Such is rangerman’s and most other white rugby followers ideological opinions of the guy even though they probably don’t know him from a bar of soap. Such is the nature of Sa Rugby’s fathom around divisiveness. They far prefer to foster divisiveness in this country than unification.
27 Sep 2009, 23:07 pm
Watson’s time with Bath will reveal a certain amount about how he gets on with others.
27 Sep 2009, 23:11 pm
#142 skopskiet:
well i’m actually ok to be cast into the box of 80% of white south africans for the purposes of this discussion, because i believe there is more to it, than simply political ideology. i believe i’m about as far removed from the average white south african as one could possibly get, but let us continue this straw man argument for what it is in any case, since i would like to see where my ideology falls short.
Watson is a divisive influence imo, he is so, becuase the incident with JW was not the first one, there have been innumerable incidents in the media, of which White is only one part. White’s sole indiscretion in this matter was making light of the non-selection of Watson.
White did not do this for political grounds or because he was born in germiston rather than the cape or because he does not like the ANC – no White did it, because he preferred larger more robust players.
In fact, my reasoning is supported by the Schalk Britz example as well as recently when he said he would not have picked Brussow. That is consistency, and its the reason he crafted such a powerful team and whose core remains today.
27 Sep 2009, 23:18 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7btxVEHrf0
Go to 3.34mins in – brilliant sound bite from PdV!
27 Sep 2009, 23:20 pm
Also, i’d be a bit reluctant to place judgement on white south africans and others so quickly. there are a few here, including the likes of rangerman that you have lumped a little too harshly, as you will notice by his response to my fishing query at 131.
whats more to the point actually, is there were alot of afr people that actually supported watson as a player, who’ve actually become totally turned off by him.
In fact, he also left the sharks under acromonious grounds well before he encountered White, and the sharks had their worst season in a decade with him at no 8.
27 Sep 2009, 23:20 pm
#144 cab: it certainly seems that way, his political message gets lost because he doesn’t appear to be a good politician, by that I mean he doesn’t know how to get on the right side of people and influence them from there. It seems he only knows how to protest, and that’s a fast way to upsetting the apple cart and alienating others. But that may all be perception, as I say it’ll be interesting to see how he gets on up here.
27 Sep 2009, 23:29 pm
#147 Big Hit:
yes, exactly, i do feel sorry for him, he is very intense principled young guy, but he needs a bit of charm. There is nothing the afr hates more than a whinger, and its good quality, its also a good quality that we have ppl that dont simply tow the party line such as watson, but my perception is that he does not tow it at all and that is the problem.
To be fair to him tho, he looks to have mellowed and even his captaincy is far more mature. I think his move to the UK will be a massive eye-opener and can only be good for him. He could well come back in a season or two and captain SA if he performs well. He is a natural leader, just got to learn to temper his wants.
27 Sep 2009, 23:29 pm
has anyone actually witnessed how Watson actually leads from the front with some distinction in the teams he leads. As captains go he is probably a thousand times more suitable to the task than Victor Matfield, Schalk Burger, Fdp and Chili Boy put together. Yet according to Jake White and many of those that simply see his political or ideological principles as abhorrant including John Smit, categorically state that Luke Watson without doubt is a divisive influence in whichever team he plays for. Bull dust he might have been somewhat divisive for Jake White because Jake White’s agenda was inconsistent with incorporating skillful small and headstrong tough players who don’t take authoritarian hog wash schoolmaster dictatorial coaching style as the gospel of rugby strategy. Jake White should have incorporated Luke Watson in his team in 2006 then Jake White would never have lost 49-0 and furthermore if Jake White was half the man manager he likes to think he was he would never have created a situation in a sport loving country where half the contingent or more hate the best captaincy candidates guts.
Jake White turned Luke Watson into the martyr pariah he is now. It was unnecessary and sure Watson had maybe as much to do with the showdown but certainly not all 29 himself. Another coach in another country would have utilized the kids talents for total positive input but here he was turned into a complete utter scape goat and surely for personal ego bent reasons not even ideological just plain and simply egoistic incompatibility.
27 Sep 2009, 23:34 pm
29 = by
27 Sep 2009, 23:42 pm
But how do you know that Jake White and John Smit see his political ideologies as abborhent? How do you know what White and Smit personally believe, have they ever been asked to give their views on apartheid or the springbok under apartheid?
The only person who has voiced these views is Luke Watson. But i wonder if White even knew who Watson was when he did not select him.
Just because White did not select someone with more challenging political views, this has nothing to do with his size. White has said he would not have selected Brussow also. White may be sizeist, but how everything else you assume or import onto White or rangerman is speculation.
27 Sep 2009, 23:46 pm
I personally think Cheeky Watson and Oregan Hoskins are to blame for forcing Luke on Jake White. White probably resented Luke and the whole forced selection created resentment amongst the players as they may have felt he got there because of nepotism. I don’t JW is completely to blame here. Cheeky didn’t exactly do his son any favours. That’s my two cents worth anyway.
27 Sep 2009, 23:47 pm
rangerman was commenting on whether a JW coached team would beat a Pdv coached team and he said he doesn’t think so. Which he may not have said 2 years ago or maybe even twelve months ago. But that is not what we are discussing. We are discussing whether Luke Watson would be a good candidate for Bok captain which I say he is and not even 80% but more likely 99% of white rugby supporters would disagree with because like rangerman they distinctly believe Luke Watson is divisive, because Jake White, John Smit and Schalk Burger says so. But what does Rassie say or Juan de Jongh or even Andries Bekker or Jean De Villiers, or Joe Pietersen, do they also say he’s divisive, and if not, then why not. I mean if Rangerman and 99% of white south african rugby supporters believe he is divisive because those are the stories as promoted by White and Smit and co. What is actually the real truth about the guy if others who play under him actually enjoy doing so?
27 Sep 2009, 23:53 pm
#153 skopskiet:
i dont listen to jake white on anything apart from rugby, and certainly not politics, i dont even listen to watson on that front – but watson has had many run-ins with many ppl and not just JW, i also watch him on the field telling ppl where to stand and such – and it is my impression that he does not have a good way of handling certain ppl.
In a nutshell, i would say he is selfish, and that is why he currently is not a captain’s captain that puts the team first. Smit is the opposite, its chalk and cheese, and a ridiculous comparison at this stage.
27 Sep 2009, 23:54 pm
#152 Crouching Tiger Hidden Bokke:
That was a very poor move by Hoskins who should never have given into political pressure, they should rather have fired the coach then circumented due process.
27 Sep 2009, 23:59 pm
The Springbok under apartheid issue was more an ideological smoke screen about why Watson was resented by White and Smit.
It probably did have some bearing on much of the players resentment and ill feelings towards Watson before even the personality issues reared their heads.
Yes Cheeky did Luke no favors whatsoever by trying to foster him onto White who dug his heels in as a matter of personal pride and refused to see the players value. Now you say Pdv has done the same. Probably because of the same political interference by Cheeky in 2008. But all this does not detract from the real issue at hand. Is Luke Watson divisive in his own personality as a player and leader on the field and is he a competent and international class loose forward. I say without doubt he is one of our top loose forwards in the country and has been such since 2005. But more importantly he is without doubt most likely the best and most capable captain in the country after John Smit who will unlikely see out 2011.
28 Sep 2009, 00:04 am
R199 for the subscription and R500 for interntional postage? Have you heard of email? WTF? Why on earth dont you offer thsi option?
28 Sep 2009, 00:05 am
Yeah well i genuinely thought by political ideology you were referring to the springbok under apartheid, if not that, what do you mean when you say Smit and White aborred political ideology?
I dont know what PdV’s reasons were for non-selection, do you? All i do know is, Watson was selected when PdV came into the setup and then not. This had nothing to do with White.
But lets say White was the original person who turned everyone against Watson, its strange that the team has performed far better in 2009 with Watson not there, so surely this does mean he is divisive? I think what you are saying is that the coach needs to be big enough to bring in even the most difficult ppl, but he tried that.
28 Sep 2009, 00:05 am
#155 cab: Thing is though what’s done is done and as PdV says “I can’t do anything about it”…no but seriously there is nothing that can be done now. We need to look to the future and the present circumstances we’re in and the captaincy issue is a bloody tough one to solve.
Logic suggests that Juan Smith could be a potential stand-in but he may take up the role reluctantly. Matfield is not suitable and as skop said neither is FdP, which then brings me onto Habana. Habs like John is a humble guy with a lot of integrity. He’s very good with the media, speaks a lot of sense and the fact he’s involved with grass roots development of rugby in poor schools adds real value to his credentials. But the problem is his position. Can a wing truly captain a team from a position removed away from the action. Though Mortlock does Captain from the centre is it really that different? This is possible where that idea falls down.
If Habana was a forward then I’d say he would be the next best option.
28 Sep 2009, 00:09 am
ok fair enough, we will have to disagree, i’ve always thought there were better.
mallet probably had it right that he should have been selected when burger went down in 2006, but White like bash-em ou doos rugby, that has nothing to do with the ANC or his poltical persuasions.
totsiens, i’m out, another time.
28 Sep 2009, 00:11 am
#159 Crouching Tiger Hidden Bokke:
yes, no real contenders, habana might be a good candidate actually, but wing is a tough place to captain from as you say.
28 Sep 2009, 00:25 am
I reckon Pdv fell foul of some similar meddling or manipulations by Cheeky and this became the root cause of the axing of Luke. I’m not sure if Luke would have been dropped if it were purely a rugby reason. Same as with White, too many personal and ideological reasons impacting on the judgements and prejudices which effectively caused White to determine that only beers get fetched from his fridge and that if he put the no.6 jersey in the change room and left Luke and Schalk to see who would emerge with it. Stupid little innuendo’s like that. Meantime as intelligent linking and to the ball open side fetcher flanks go Luke Watson was without peer through 2005-2006 and he was in absolute fact the very missing ingredient in that team that lost 49-0 and went on to lose to almost everybody after that inclusively through that year even against the French White had no answer to the breakdown ball and lost everytime he faced them with one draw.
28 Sep 2009, 00:29 am
#24 cab: And he would have been used as a centre instead of a winger under Jake. His preferred position and one in which he is much better
(he was not fast enough for winger). Ironic that Australia is now struggling to find a replacement midfield centre when Clyde retires.
#84 PissAnt:Have you not been reading between the lines? Chilliboy is teh next SA captain. Fact. He is being groomed in teh Bok manner, seeing how John deals with captaincy, and earning his stripes as a tackle bag holder with the senior players. As he gets older and stronger, his playe will be tighter, and he will take over where Bismark leaves off. He is also a great captain (U21 WC winners captain) and a good leader.
#87 NZINCHINA: I grew up in Pta, and I hated the idea of firearms being behind every bush. It scares the **** out of me – all you need is some fool with too many Brandys in him and a twisted sense of humour to take it out and start pointing it around in jest (happens way too often with idiots with a small pen!s and large bravado).
Now say he did not clean it properly or eject the cartidge from the chamber when he took the magazine out. It is scary to rely to have your life rely on someone else NOT being absent minded…
If people start horsing around with guns near me, I get anxious and upset. I tell them once to stop. If they don’t then I leave. If I can’t leave, I start klapping. It’s no joke, and they aren’t toys.
28 Sep 2009, 00:48 am
#162 skopskiet: not sure about the 49-0, Boks played Aus in Brisbane this year with a fetcher in Brussow and were still well beaten. I reckon they just like playing at Suncorp.
28 Sep 2009, 02:10 am
#162 skopskiet: The old Luke debate again. Who cares really? Sad people like you continue to hang on to the fantasy of Luke getting sick all over his green jersey. It is over. Turn the page, old man.
28 Sep 2009, 02:18 am
#164 Big Hit:
Don’t listen to Ubu… Jake White persisted with a ‘fetcher’ (albeit a quota) on Solly Tybilika in the 49-0 smashing… furthermore… he also played Kabamba Floors as a ‘fetcher’ in other tests… so the whole argument is moot…
Watson broke the code of the Springbok (or part of the Springbok oath) by criticising both the coach and the captain… that (and then getting monstered out of position @ 6) sealed his fate… boring boring boring…
#158 cab:
Yes Peter told the world media he thought (like Watson) that his best position is at 8 (as do I… a great utility-link-8 preferably off the bench with Vermeulen @8) but that in Spies/Kanko (not to mention Vermeulen) he had that position covered… enough said… his words… only some on this forum will look for conspiracy theories in light of his great CC (2nd tier) performance… happens every year in the CC even when WP cannot even make the play-offs as in the last few seasons… again boring, boring, boring…
Luke clearly does not relish playing as an open-sider as we have seen at many a level… and yawn again… prefers his roving roll as an utility-link-8 with the ability to turn ball over away from the engine room where he excells… fine for the CC and off the bench in the S14… but when it comes to the brutality of test rugby @ 8…
Spies
Kankowski
Vermeulen
Alberts
Potgieter
Nuff said!
28 Sep 2009, 04:13 am
The heading on this article is way misleading.
Just say you are trying to sell the magazine FFS
Proteas are the same as the AllBlacks
CHOKERS
28 Sep 2009, 04:43 am
#167 Boksarenumber1:
Only difference is Protea’s are still ranked numero uno…
28 Sep 2009, 07:04 am
#163 SjamBok:
Dude, I doubt Chilli will be the next Bok captain.
The captain will in likelihood be someone who is the best in his position and I can’t see Chilli starting ahead of Bismarck anytime soon.
There are also many leaders in the side who will probably do a better job and earn more respect than a guy who is not even the 1st choice at his province.
28 Sep 2009, 07:06 am
Proteas are useless!!!
1999, 2003, 2007…
And those were the CWC tournaments.
They have failed to reach the final of a major tournament since they won the Commonwealth final in 2000.
CHOKERS!!!
28 Sep 2009, 07:13 am
#169 wpw:
Wonder if Tiaan Liebenberg has the creds to captain WP… he’s most definitely the next in line with Strauss (already becoming a great captain) to top hooker mantle behind Bismarck…
Ralepele is a ‘never was’ form hooker despite his ‘caps’…
28 Sep 2009, 07:21 am
#168 money_man:
Yeah, but don’t deserve it with a shocker like that! Good knock by Smith though. The choker tag is sitting lekker vas with the Proteas.
28 Sep 2009, 07:25 am
#172 whatever:
Agreed… the Kiwi’s used to be able to choke and still remain number1… it doesn’t sit that well for us Protea’s supporters…
28 Sep 2009, 07:28 am
#173 money_man:
What pees me off even more is all the groot bek talk by Steyn before the tournament. When will we learn to shut the F up and do the talking on the park?? The Boks have done it as well…….. seems to be a Saffa thing (Apart from the AB’s of course
)
28 Sep 2009, 07:38 am
#171 money_man:
Which Strauss are you referring to? I don’t think that Andries Strauss has captained the Cheetahs that often.
28 Sep 2009, 07:42 am
#175 David:
He is the stand in captain for the Yster Smith… hence ‘becoming’… he has shown some good leadership in the last several games and his form is only parred by Liebenberg at the moment…
28 Sep 2009, 07:58 am
#176 money_man:
Wasn’t Scholtz the stand in for Juan and Strauss the stand in for Hendro when he was injured? As far as the Boks are concerned I can’t see Strauss even being considered as a potential captain.
28 Sep 2009, 08:03 am
#177 David:
Me either… but he’s a far superior hooker to Ralepelle… quicker, faster, stronger… as is Liebenberg…
28 Sep 2009, 08:09 am
#178 money_man:
I’m a great Liebenburg fan. Andries is good, no doubt about that, although I’ve always felt that Richardt was a slightly better player. But that’s a personal opinion.
No doubt we’ll be hearing from the Bulls supporters soon about who should be the Bok hooker, if the rumours are true about a certain gentleman returning to Loftus next year.
28 Sep 2009, 08:28 am
Skoppie must be paid for by keow to keep the hits coming. It’s sad to see how skops starts off with sensible rugby comments which rapidly degenerate to divisive racist drivel in the style of Julius Malema. I appreciate that a forum is agreat place to trade insults but, if you do, you can’t really be taken seriously.
Bok captain is a biiig problem. Chiliboy was certainly being groomed for the job but hasn’t yet come up trumps. Vic a bit old (ditto Bakkies) and not that inspitaional, not sure why FdP doesn’t get considered, Habs could be an inspired choice but a bit injury prone (ditto Juan). No obvious candidates who would always be selected for the team unless you consider Bissy, M Steyn and F Steyn (imagine that!!) then JdV and JF (getting on a bit).
To touch on Watson. Unless he has an inspired season at Bath he has a few problems. Is he the best in his position considering the loosies SA does have? Also consider that Watson hardly had the impact of Brussow in his Bok debut, against Samoa was it, where he was innocuous while Brussow shone immediately agansy the BI&L and in the TN. Then there’s the Watson baggage. Putting aside the JW fall out, how can he captain under PdV having fallen out with him? Could he weld team members from diferent cultures together when he’s so outspoken? He’s sort of managed at provincial level although helped by the WP chequebook. He wasn’t that great at the Sharks. And of course, he’s not getting any younger.
The Boks also have other problems. Who is going to be back up to kick for posts for Morne, where’s the next Bakkies and is Bekker really going to stand in for Vic?
28 Sep 2009, 11:51 am
Captaining a rugby team is about 1/100th as hard as captaining a cricket team. A rugby captain only has about ten decisions to make in the average eighty-minute game. And most of the rest is just pep-talk and rah-rah . Complete waste of perfectly good breath, mostly. Rugby captaincy surely has to be the most wildly over-rated job description outside of politics and religion. Cricket captaincy? Now THAT is entirely another matter.
28 Sep 2009, 12:49 pm
No wonder Fitzy kept the job for so long.
28 Sep 2009, 12:50 pm
#181 TheTackler: tell that to Richie McCaw, he’s still in tears about his decision-making flop in ’07. Cost millions in the end.
28 Sep 2009, 13:06 pm
#183 Big ****:
Ritchie doesn’t seem to have much of a problem against your bunch of sad sacks Biggles.
83% winning record against Pom-golia.
28 Sep 2009, 15:03 pm
#184 cane: don’t hate me for speaking the truth, he was at it again in Hamilton, going for the try instead of taking the 3 points. The man is too busy concentrating on his cheating to be bothered with making genuine rugby captain’s decisions.
28 Sep 2009, 16:28 pm
#166 Money Man
Solly did not play in the 49-0 trashing, Danie Rossouw was the openside flanker.
28 Sep 2009, 16:49 pm
#166 money_man:
Kak.
Solly didnt play in 49-0 thrashing,he played the next week vs AB’s along with Butch
Kabamaba Floors played one game vs Eng after Jake lost the first Test vs Poms partly due to persisting with 3 big loosies.Lost the breakdown battle the week before,won it the week after with Floors at 6.
Jake play the following at 6 majority of time during tenure:
Danie Rossouw
AJ Venter
Schalk Burger
Gerrie Brits
Jacques Cronje
Which of those are fetchers?
f**kall
28 Sep 2009, 16:53 pm
#187 mshiniwami: when i see those so called fetchers i get the moer in all over again….bloody hell….free lunches for ythe aussies and Kiwis…..
28 Sep 2009, 18:28 pm
Jake didn’t know what a fetcher signified, he admitted as much as the only fetching he ever required were his sons fetching beers from the fridge.
He conveniently skirted around the one individual who could have saved him his credibility and his ignomony, Mallet, Frik Du Preez, everyone that knew anything about rugby were screaming at him to pick Watson, instead he picked Tyabaliyka or Floors, where are those 2 today, playing second string rugby somewhere off the bench or in Solly’s case right off the bus, meanwhlie Watson is leading his team possibly to CC semi’s and beyond.
Now they continue deluding themselves Jake knew what he was doing by playing Roussouw or Spies at open side and losing hand over f’ng fist in the process, then they delude themselves further after he lost against NZ and Aus throughout 06 and 07 that by beating Argentina and England all that losing gets redeemed.
So he compromised and picked Tyabalyika or Floors as his attempt to compromise his penchant blindness in respect of his denial of Watson. Its been a long way round the rosemary bush, but its coming around again, and this time they got it right by default, eventually the penny dropped that a fetcher was paramount, otherwise no way in hell would this team be anywhere with Burger still plumbing away at 6 and Brussow off the bench behind Roussouw.
29 Sep 2009, 10:42 am
#189 skopskiet: who is tyabalyika?
29 Sep 2009, 11:25 am
#189 skopskiet:
I think that is correct, JW never recognised the qualities of a specialist fetcher, he believed everyone should fetch – I think he was wrong here – but he stuck to this reasoning where recently he said there was no chance he would select Brussow over a fit Burger.
It might be that Watson would have added what was lacking, perhaps you were right, perhaps White got this wrong. Mallett i believe said he would have picked Watson at this time as backup to Burger.
However, I still struggle to see how this was anything other than a ‘poor’ rugby decision, as considered by many but not all, at the time. To bring in supposed political ideology is too much imo. you may be right, but i think its others who are importing this political ideology where there is none.
29 Sep 2009, 11:52 am
Solly Tyibilika or however you like to spell his name. But then you knew who I was refering to already.
Jake tried to make him the open side flank he was missing while palpably ignoring the one who was holding his hand up week in and week out.
All it really showed was as far as true strength of character went Jake was the one that came up consistently short. Hell he even had to get Eddy Jones in for the WC because he basically knew that his heart and nerves would never last out the cauldron of the exercise. Not only did EJ give his entire team a totally new perspective on the game, but psychologically without EJ Jake would have folded in a heap of insecure desperation at the first sign of falter. I almost know so and I reckon perhaps so does Jake.
29 Sep 2009, 12:11 pm
It was personal cab, otherwise why did he recognize the need albeit belatedly after his 49-0 snot klap and introduce Tybilika and later Floors who both filled the role far better than Roussouw or Spies or Cronje or Gerrie Britz?
Jake had a personal vendetta against Watson and possibly not many know exactly what for, but I reckon it went around more than just one or two issues. I think possibly Watson had stood up to his authority already at junior level when Jake suggested if he wanted to play in his team he should play hooker and Watson refused and said he wanted to continue his career at flank or loose forward. Also there may have been leadership conflict at Sharks with J. Smit and White rallied round Smit which is understandable. Some rumours doing the rounds about a thing with John’s wife which sounded rough and might just be rumour. But I reckon perhaps the initial issue is what David touched on that he was Cheeky’s son and that his influence under ANC political ideology was simply abhorred by the bulk of the rugby status quo and this is possibly along with all the other divisive speculation which sparked the vendetta off.
Why would one single individual represent such a diverse conflict in a rugby nation if it was not fraught with all manner of personal and ideological issues, impossible. He was voted by the rugby players as players player of the year in 06 I think it was yet White refused point blank to pick him and picked Tybilika and Floors instead. Blindness is the word absolute prejudiced blindness nothing else suffices as a true representation of the issue. And ultimately what we reap out of it is a player who is either martyrd or despised 29 the rugby fraternity. Totally unnecessary stand off for petty personal or ideological reasons.
29 Sep 2009, 12:13 pm
#193 skopskiet:
Cape Town – Former Springbok coach Jake White says he is ready to help save the team from their present crisis. He also wants to play a notable role in the future of SA rugby.
“I want to be director of rugby in South Africa,” White said on Tuesday.
But the man who masterminded the SA World Cup triumph in France last year does not want his former job back and he wants to stay out of the limelight.
SA Rugby Union president Oregan Hoskins has already made it clear that Peter de Villiers’s position as national coach is in no danger.
However, the Springboks have lost four of their five Tri-Nations Test matches this season and the players seem to be struggling to adapt to De Villiers’s rugby philosophy.
“I don’t want to get rich from SA rugby,” White said. “I don’t want to be in the limelight and I’m not looking for the pressures that go with it. I’ve had my turn.
“All I’d like to do is help. That’s what I have always wanted to do.”
White was unable to attend the Test in Durban last week when Australia beat South Africa 27-15.
However, he has formed an opinion on the basis of observations he made during other matches.
“There are too many forwards standing around in the backline,” he said. “They try to do half of what we did, and half of their own thing. Half of everything leaves you with nothing,” White said.
“Schalk Burger was, until recently, the best player in the world. Now he is replaced during a match by Luke Watson. I don’t understand that.”
White said it would be easy for him to join in as a consultant. He would be comfortable with the players because the core of the team that had won the World Cup was still there.
29 Sep 2009, 12:30 pm
Thank goodness he never got it right to manipulate his way into the Springbok DOR job. Imagine Pdv having to work under White and his straight jacket style.
Since Schalk was sidelined out of WP for injury reasons, Province have suddenly come right and under the captaincy of Watson. I can tell you that Schalk Burger as much as he is so highly rated by many across the country and the world isn’t fit to tie the boot laces of Watson if it comes down to intelligent rugby captaincy no matter what White thinks or says.
Agendas flow fast and furiously in this ideologically driven sport here none more so where coaches favorites are challenged by so called politically active upstarts. But if I have to chose between Watson and Burger to captain any side or for that matter to play open side or 8th man I reckon under current circumstances I stick with Watson. Not saying Burger has become superfluous or redundant, his ferocious defensive capabilities are legion, the pity is that between those two there seems to be such bitter rivalry and such absolute animosity and zero love lost that they simply cannot get the best out of their compatriot association.
Such is the great pity where ideological or personal vendetta’s get blown so way out proportion by coaches who rather fan the fires of incompatibility than utilize the variety of talents for the overall good cause. Such is the nature of such divisiveness. If the coach was half the man manager or potential DOR he pretends to be, he would never have incited this stand off from the beginning and would have been far more mature and encompassing about it all.
29 Sep 2009, 12:38 pm
Just look where we stand a year later. A team on top of the world. A happy team of committed players and associates all working together to a common end. A team that has beaten Nz 3 times in succession in one season and back to back victories against them at their home grounds. When last did a Springbok team enjoy such unbridled successes. Never in Jakes time and hardly in any other coaches time before that. And all this achieved without the meddling manipulations of a JW as a DOR. thank the good lord above someone saw sense enough to not grant his manipulative self centered wishes.
29 Sep 2009, 14:44 pm
#196 skopskiet: if he got the job we wouldn’t have “winning ways”, which means the Golden Lions wouldn’t have contracted the consultancy which would’ve meant Loffie would’ve still been in-charge and hans coetzee would still be regarded as nothing either than a high school coach and earl rose would be playing flyhalf instead of warming the bench.
29 Sep 2009, 14:57 pm
#193 skopskiet:
I dunno, you a pretty insightful guy so perhaps you are right, but i just cannot go on gut feeling, i will rather give someone the benefit of the doubt before all sorts of extraneous judgments are placed on them.
I believe it did beoame slightly personal, in light of JW’s abbrasive untactful approach, but i just am not sure the initial non-selection was a personal one.
You probably feel White ruined Watson’s career, but the coach can only select those he feels will best implement his vision, i think you and many others felt Watson was an automatic shoe-in, but not everybody felt this way, even Stephen Jones is not a big Watson fan (tho he also seems to be tjoms with White). I just do not think White rated him, but perhaps there was more, i dunno.
Where I think White’s personal ideology was very questionable was the terrible opportunism shown immediately after RWC2007 in which he touted his services for the touring BIL. That was bladdy poor smaak imo.
29 Sep 2009, 15:02 pm
#196 skopskiet:
yes, that is also true to an extent, i believe the team is playing better and is even a happier environment now, but it was a pretty happy camp under JW’s reign too imo. White was perhaps over-controlling, but perhaps that was what was needed at the time he took over to break the bad habits that had crept into the boks game.
29 Sep 2009, 16:00 pm
Skopskiet you can’t make JW and PDV comparisons.
Jake built a team from nothing to one of teh most caps teams in history.
PDV took a mature team and helped them developed.
The real test will be what happens when these core players identified by Jake have to reture and replacements need to be found.
Who will have the vision to pick the right players and let them develop over time.
It takes time to develop a team into the unit the Springboks are today.
England under Woodwood back up that statement.
A young NZ and Aussie team not playing as well is also testament to what Jakes core belief was> Pick teh right players and let them build caps.
Thats what happened and look now.
Skop you have always been a person that can’t see further than one game ahead or remember anything previosu to the last game played.
Get perspective on what has been achieved over 6 years. Yes 6 years since the core of this team was formed. over 800 caps between them.
It took Jake and PDV to achieve that not either one. And I will always back Jake as teh better coach of the 2 as he built teh team, he made the hard decisions, PDV make the right decision but they were much easier to make.
But I am happy to say PDV is our Coach. He is doing a great job. The players seem really comfortable and happy under him which is a great testament.
29 Sep 2009, 16:05 pm
retire rather
29 Sep 2009, 16:06 pm
in essence, skopskiet, you’re myopic. Be far-sighted…
29 Sep 2009, 16:19 pm
In other words Skop’s opinion is a heap of beattles dung.
The guy has no idea what development is. He thinks a coach creates a team in a week – like his comments about Eddie Jones winning teh world cup for us.
Eddie might have had valuable input but he didn’t change the way the Boks played. Jake groomed them to play WC winning rugbya nd thats what they did.
Eddies contribution I’m sure was valuable but a coach doesn’t build or make a WC winning team in the space of a month or so.
Really to even utter that is stupidity.
It took year to build the team to have the composure, defense, experience to win a WC. Jake knew that and thats what he set out from the start to achieve and he achieved it.
We are all proud of our current team. Give JAke his dues in this success. It really is astounding that people can;t do that. It’s pure stubborness and lack of ability to know what it takes to develop a winning team.
PDV deserves his dues as well. As a black coach in a sport loved like a religion my the majority of white people he must feel the heat. He has stood tall and delivered and good on him. He has made teh right decision in selection and come round to the right decisions in tactics. Respect.
29 Sep 2009, 16:48 pm
let’s see if he can answer without flinging f’ckadilly f’ckwit or ingrained ignorant bigots into the broth….or 49-0 for that matter…
29 Sep 2009, 20:40 pm
You people are deluded. We talking about why was Watson ostrisized as a follow on from who is the best Bok captaincy candidate after Smit.
Your delusion stretches to the fact that White didn’t select a fetching flank throughout his tenure and got whipped by the biggest hiding a bok coach could as a result of some of that very blindness. Now you trying to tell me he built a WC winning team after losing poorly through 06 and 07 in the 3N.
You also deluding yourselves to convincing your minds that by beating 7th ranked England and 6th ranked Argentina to win a world cup competition made in heaven was tantamount to eradicating all that poor strategy and hopeless losing through the two years before as somewhat redeeming this coaches credibility in your eyes.
Pdv is streaks ahead of White in terms of winning capacity unless you still unable to realize this.
Also its a totally false premise to believe the core of Whites team was of his own design or making. He made as many if not far more stupid decisions and selections than Pdv, one example being he was unable to recognize the need for a to the ball open side flank as highlighted already on this thread picking big slow ball carriers instead. Selecting poor fly halves like Vd Westhuizen poor wings like Pretorius and some others. He did not create the team that won the world cup he coordinated it together with Eddy Jones who he needed desperately as another internationally experienced sounding board because he was emphatically floundering right out of his depth, otherwise he would not have solicited his input. The only players introduced to that team during his tenure were Fdp, Steyn, Habana, Pienaar, Bismark and Jpp. All the rest incl J. Smit, V. Matfield, B. Botha, Steenkamp, Cj, Os, van Niekerk, Smith, Burger, van Heerden, Jdv, Percy etc were Springbok’s before he took charge. His two better years 2004 and 2005 were in fact when he had taken the previous team almost intact with Barry and Joubert still in centre field. After that his strategic and tactical lack actually got severely exposed hence the more than poor showings through 06 and 07.
No if anyone is short sighted and fooled by deluded oblivion round here its certainly not me but all you that still reckon White is or was anywhere near a rugby coach as Pdv is.
29 Sep 2009, 22:18 pm
Awesome! I now have something to read under my desk at school again!
30 Sep 2009, 17:37 pm
On the captaincy issue, i doubt Watson is the best captain at all, for the simple reason that he is percieved as being ‘divisive’. He is also not being selected by the present coach PdV, so its a non-issue.
On the JW issue, the RWC might have been a helluva lucky draw, but we succeeded where other teams failed in beating Argentina and England who put pay to the Frogs four times.
imo that Bok side would have beaten all and sundry, as the present side is showing it can do.
On who is best between PdV and JW, i think they are both excellent, and probably we were very lucky to get these two exactly when we did. I am not sure PdV would have been as consistent as JW was in terms of sticking to the core, even when losing, and I am not sure JW would have taken the team on as PDV has done with such a magnicent set of results including two away wins in NZ, a 5-1 3N demolition and a Lions series.
30 Sep 2009, 17:48 pm
Skop seems locked on to JW’s feud with Watson, was it really that big a deal? lots of coaches have issues with players, Woodward ended Cockerill’s international career over a disagreement. Sometimes personalities clash.
7 Oct 2009, 20:16 pm
I would have liked to see the cover split in 3 ways showing the Springboks’ success over the last 2 years. What a cover it would’ve made. Where’s the creative design guys?
7 Oct 2009, 20:19 pm
#208 Big Hit: they literally hated each other BH…thats a fact!!!
7 Oct 2009, 20:37 pm
#210 grant10: my point is that players are ignored all the time by sports coaches around the world based on a personality clash, it just happens sometimes
7 Oct 2009, 20:48 pm
#211 Big Hit: i agree…but this was fuelled by politics….the past history…powerful politics….and , no matter what anyone tells you BH, an intense dislike for each other….
One day when you visit SA we have a beer….my blonde was at J C E with Jake….i met and chatted to Luke in 2007 ….told him to stop the kak….also met Jake with the blonde….it was a goddamn soap opera.
No prizes for who you think i backed!!
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