Forward thinking
9 Jun 2010
Keo, in SA Rugby magazine, writes that Peter de Villiers should be appointed to a second successive term as Bok coach – and gives the blueprint that would make this appointment logical.
South African rugby’s future has never looked so secure. Careful management of and greater patience with players is non-negotiable to turn the prospect of long-term international dominance into the tangibles that come with Test wins and tournament successes.
This country is blessed with more natural talent than any other, New Zealand included, and the depth is spread across every position. There’s not a position in which South Africa suffers, but there’s a perception that we suffer in too many positions because the patience needed in developing players and allowing them to mature isn’t always applied.
Players too often have left this country disillusioned at the inconsistent provincial, regional and national selection policy, and this is the one curse of having so much talent. If there’s no immediate blossoming, coaches and selectors have turned to the next talent.
In countries not as fortunate to have South Africa’s playing base, coaches are judged on their ability to develop players as much as their team’s results.
Quade Cooper, the outstanding Reds flyhalf, is just one example of how a country with limited rugby union resources had to stick with what they had identified. Cooper played Super Rugby as a 19-year-old and played like a kid just out of school. His game lacked natural authority, there was no maturity and one act of brilliance was counter-balanced with three acts of schoolboy jitters.
The Australians didn’t panic because they couldn’t afford to. They kept on playing him and three years later he’s the sensation of the tournament, and he’s only 22 years old.
In the early- to mid-noughties our coaches were inspired by the way Australian Stephen Larkham played flyhalf, so they tried to find South Africa’s Stephen Larkham. There were many players of similar skill but lacking in experience. They weren’t given the time to develop and because they didn’t play like the veteran Stephen Larkham they were dismissed as pretenders. It was wrong and that kind of thinking will always be wrong.
Identification is critical to any strategy and in the next 10 years the greatest opponent South African rugby will face is itself. New Zealand will always be competitive and, in the right cycle, seemingly unbeatable. But the Kiwis have suffered like never before because of the overseas player exodus. It has not necessarily weakened the national team, but it has shredded the fabric of the country’s Super Rugby superiority.
It used to be a Super Rugby experience to win in New Zealand. Now with some teams it is considered a failure not to win at least half of their matches there. The quality of players leaving New Zealand is also of finer pedigree than the South African ones who have sought northern hemisphere salaries and the comfort of less intense domestic leagues.
South Africa’s game can maintain those seeking a European experience. New Zealand’s can’t, and that’s the biggest advantage South African rugby currently has over New Zealand. The lesser advantage is that our schools rugby structure is the best in the world and the production line of talent is endless.
Having the best recipe still doesn’t guarantee the best meal, and that’s why the dismantling of coaching and administrative egos has to be as ongoing as transformation. It can’t be an event; it has to be part of everyone’s contribution to a calmer, better and more honest South African game.
Springbok coach Pieter de Villiers, under pressure from politicians to include more black faces in the national squad, succumbed to the pressure and picked players not good enough to play in the midweek Bok squad last November.
The selections were blatant window-dressing and particularly sad because South African rugby has progressed in substance when it comes to a national game that includes anyone good enough to play it or have the passion to contribute to its health.
The selections and shocking subsequent results indicated that South African rugby lacked depth. The truth is more pleasing because between the Bulls, Stormers and Sharks, South Africa has three of the most powerful provinces in world rugby, and all three teams are well represented by the next generation, who have succeeded at junior level and are excelling in Super Rugby.
Add the handful of genuine national contenders playing in Europe and South Africa should be able to select two national run-on XVs of near equal strength. Previously, only New Zealand could do that and if they continue to exclude their offshore players they will never be in a position to do so again.
South African rugby has been spoilt by the player investment made in 2004 by then Springbok coach Jake White and his selectors. The Bok coach trusted youth and allowed this youth to grow up on the international field and not in domestic rugby. These players went on to win the World Cup and because of their youth many are still around to defend the title. Those new to the environment have walked into a culture of winning and excellence. It’s easier to prosper when you live in a house built with cement and not dressed up with colourful wallpaper.
The talent, though, is what makes South Africa the envy of everyone. No other country has as much international depth among wings, scrumhalves, loose forwards, locks and hookers.
Every country, bar Italy and Argentina, suffers for quality tightheads, but while they have these front-row Frankensteins, they have little else to trouble the more established teams.
South Africa’s talent has to be celebrated, and where there’s a feeling of anxiety, the perceived second-rate talent has to be coached and the decision to invest in a player who’s not the complete case study has to be supported with a desire to get the maximum out of his talent.
Bulls and Bok flyhalf Morné Steyn, playing a secondary role to Derick Hougaard at the Bulls, was never considered the all-round international package. He got a chance last year, kicked the most incredible pressure penalty in the series-winning Test against the British & Irish Lions and forced the selectors to play him. In a new environment, with different demands and philosophies he had not been exposed to, his game strengthened and he finished the season as one of the top three international flyhalves and definitely the most consistent wearing a No 10 jersey.
An early call has to be made on who’s good enough to play Test rugby, not just with an emphasis in 2011 but also 2015.
It’s possible to prepare for both World Cups in the next six months and doing so would also address the issue of player burnout and of getting the right players to be at their peak at the 2011 World Cup.
It won’t be a crime to lose a Test in the next six months if the planning is obvious and the identification is as definite. If De Villiers plays what is a team for the future in certain Tests, it has to include the type of players who have forced their way into Super Rugby at a young age or have the skills to replace a Test incumbent who won’t be around in England in 2015.
This season allows for selection identification with a difference; two squads for two World Cups and this also gives De Villiers an advantage should he want to continue post 2011. Having worked with the next tier of Test player for two years has to be a magnet to continued employment.
And I don’t think De Villiers should be judged simply on winning the World Cup. It’s too much of a lottery. His greater judgement should be from the players he picks, the quality of the rugby played, the improvement of the individual and results that bring more champagne than flat beer.
There’s enough in the current playing pool to alternate Test sides, but this can only be sold to the rugby public if there’s conviction that when Victor Matfield, John Smit and Bryan Habana, for example, don’t play, the three who replace them will be there in 2015.
Playing rugby in South Africa and coaching South Africa has never been as exciting. The demands and expectation will never allow for mediocrity and failure at the expense of building, but in this country we don’t need to build or transform and expect to fail.
White proved it when he selected nine black players in his match 22 that beat a full-strength Wallabies side 33-20 at Ellis Park in 2005. The Bok line-up, laughed off as a political gesture to former president Nelson Mandela, led 33-8 and with a bit more experience could have put 50 past the Wallabies.
The failure of that victory was how few of those nine black players made it to the World Cup two years later. De Villiers has a test case he can refer to and learn from.
Black players in this country win South Africa more Tests than they have ever lost and when the right young white and black players have been identified, played and trusted, they have not failed.
There’s so much to be bullish about this international season, but it’s what can be assembled as a national squad for 2015 that is even more powerful than the very good squad De Villiers will take to defend the title in New Zealand in 2011. No other country can say that.
– This article first appeared in the June issue of SA Rugby magazine
267 Comments
9 Jun 2010, 06:19 am
Forward Dragon
9 Jun 2010, 06:22 am
Some people still has a lot to learn what rugby AND business is all about.
9 Jun 2010, 06:23 am
Skopskiet for next bok coach -
9 Jun 2010, 06:33 am
I would say that one of the biggest failings of the Boks selectors is that they dont identify startling talent at a really young age (like schooboy age), and make sure that they get put into the best training and conditioning institutions that they can. I know that the Bulls do it, but there should be such a thing on the national stage.
9 Jun 2010, 06:35 am
@straight talk(Chris Coetzer)-3: Oh hell no! If you think Pdv talks a lot of **** – then wait…
9 Jun 2010, 06:46 am
PDV has given us a team with frayed edges, against one of the top sides in the world.
Two centers on the bench (one in his first Super Rugby season). No fullback. Chilliboy, who hasn’t played consistently for two seasons. Dropping Frans Steyn, a star player, because he was “not up to standard” in one match.
I’ll give him the Ricky selection, for his mongrel against France, which I think is needed.
But that bench shows PDV’s continued immaturity.
He was appointed, and he accepted, the job of Springbok Head Coach prematurely for “other than rugby” reasons.
The worrying thing is that maturity comes with experience. And the World Cup is just around the corner, not four years from now.
9 Jun 2010, 06:48 am
New Zealand tried the whole “two world class XVs” thing before and it ended in a quarter-final exit at the WC.
Who cares if we could pick two great test sides now, yes it’s good to have but I would much rather we pick the best xv we can for all games…unless we play some more mid-week games.
9 Jun 2010, 07:04 am
@sglazer: #6 in your pessimistic view, an “immature” pdv trounced the geniuses of robbie deans & graham henry last year?
9 Jun 2010, 07:14 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-8: He had the strongest group of players in world rugby.
I’m not saying he’s not a good coach or a good person, just that he was appointed and accepted the position of Head Coach prematurely, and is now learning at this level on the job.
There’s an alternate reality we could and should be on, one in which we are a lot further ahead of the competition and settled in this role.
We must learn from this, never to make expedient appointments and selections ever again. And we must find a way forward now, with PDV as Head Coach, to winning the World Cup.
9 Jun 2010, 07:25 am
Soo now Keo admits that the European leagues are ‘less demanding’, and that our best players aren’t playing there.
The flavour of the day changes yet again.
9 Jun 2010, 07:28 am
In fact, he called it ‘less intense’.
9 Jun 2010, 07:33 am
@sglazer: #9 “alternate reality” you sound like walter bishop now, all this talk of being further ahead is nothing but conjencture. You’re basing your assumptions on not even a smidgen of reality. If jake white was mature enough to take over as springbok coach then peter de villiers was also more than qualified. At no point during peter’s appointment did oregan hoskins say we have gone for the less mature of the two candidates.
9 Jun 2010, 07:41 am
its all still Jake White … i really don’t think PDV has a clue. I wonder what PDV will do with a average team like the lions.
9 Jun 2010, 07:45 am
if jake was coach Brussow would still be a beer fetcher.
9 Jun 2010, 07:47 am
@sglazer(sglazer)-6:
Aaah, the old PdV was the political selection chestnut
Lets go back on the selection process
SARU Committe (Presidents of the various unions – political committee) elect a Technical Committe to assess the candidates
SARU and Technical Committee agree assessment criteria
Technical Committee chooses PdV
To my mind, this makes PdV the merit selection
Members of SARU Committee (the political arm), led by the northern unions, reject the Technical Committee’s decision
Said members of SARU Committee override Technical Committe decision and force matter to go to vote
PdV wins vote
Hoskins makes his infamous statements so as to appease the disgruntled members of the SARU (political) committe
Irony, PdV was the merit selection from the outset and is now derided as being the political selection
9 Jun 2010, 07:48 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-12: I do know about alternate realities. That’s my line of work. They do exist, all the time. We decide which reality we live in. They’re like movies, only more real ones.
I suggest watching The Elegant Universe (Nova) for windows into understanding the construct of our reality.
There’s no connection between Jake White’s appointment and PDV’s. They were separate, unrelated events. The one does not follow the other.
Oregan did say PDV was appointed for “reasons other than rugby”. And we all know who the rugby appointment would have been: the guy who went through the ranks and was the logical right choice to take on the role of Springbok Head Coach.
At the moment the Springboks are living a positive but befuddled reality, less than it could be, largely because of an expedient choice around the appointment of Head Coach.
Expediency is not a good choice. Honesty is.
9 Jun 2010, 07:49 am
@quotas_sux(quota_conrad_jantjies_is_jorrie_muller)-13: the same thing JW did last year i guess… F.all
9 Jun 2010, 07:53 am
@heita(heita)-15:
“Hoskins makes his infamous statements so as to appease the disgruntled members of the SARU (political) committe
Irony, PdV was the merit selection from the outset and is now derided as being the political selection”.
This is conjecture (an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information).
9 Jun 2010, 07:55 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-8:
You forget, according to the competency theorists, it was not PdV coaching those victories
As per the competency theorists, in Smit, Matfield & Du Preez we are currently blessed with what we can conclude must be rugby’s greatest EXPONENTS
Note use of the word EXPONENT (rather than player)
For not only are these inviduals the globes best players they similtaneously also out coach the worlds best coaches – Aus, NZ, BIL
Never has rugby history been blessed with such rugby talent
Combined player coaches the likes of which the game has never before seen
9 Jun 2010, 07:56 am
@sglazer(sglazer)-16: have you ever thought about what these “reasons other than rugby” are? It could’ve been anything really… think about it.
I can list a few things already… but instead I will let you try to come up with something…
9 Jun 2010, 07:58 am
@sglazer(sglazer)-18:
Its simple
Technical criteria were agreed by all
PdV was the candidate of choice
That made him the merit selection
Nothing incomplete about this
This is fact
No conjecture in this
If you believe otherwise, please highlight
9 Jun 2010, 07:59 am
AAAAAAAAAAAG PLEEEEAAAAAAAASSSSSEEEEE not so early in the morning with the merit/white/black snot asb!
Eish manne!
As jul wil relax kom bietjie plaas toe dat julle van al daai nonsens kan onslae raak.
Come and sit here with a coffee next to the dam and watch the Zebra, Kudu and rest of game… maybe then you will forget about all the merit/colour snot!
Eish..
9 Jun 2010, 08:01 am
@Staal(Staal)-22: Ek stem saam..
9 Jun 2010, 08:04 am
There’s no point in dwelling on the history, but there is value in being honest and learning from our mistakes (one of PDV’s virtues).
We need to find a way forward, that strengthens PDV’s weaknesses. We don’t have much time for experience. The World Cup is around the corner.
And we must resolve not to make expedient appointments and selections in future.
9 Jun 2010, 08:05 am
Heita, Transformation, how about commenting on this:
Two centers on the bench (one in his first Super Rugby season). No fullback. Chilliboy, who hasn’t played consistently for two seasons. Dropping Frans Steyn, a star player, because he was “not up to standard” in one match.
9 Jun 2010, 08:17 am
Keo,
This website was one of those claiming that it is the senior players coaching the team
Following this, your article then misses a key point
With pushing the re-election of PdV, should we not then also be proactive and start pushing for the likes of Potgieter, Hougaard, Spies, et al to complete their level 3 coaching certificates
For surely if we are going to continue with PdV combining his moustache on the sidelines we should have the next generation of rugby exponent ready to take over the player coaching roles
9 Jun 2010, 08:29 am
And then KEO has something to say when Chilliboy is included in the National setup meanwhile that is PDV trying to achieve what is suggested in the article.
9 Jun 2010, 08:33 am
@heita(heita)-26: LOL
Classic
9 Jun 2010, 08:34 am
Actually really surpirsed at some amteaur journalism on some valid points, but mostly non-related ramblings.
Isn’t this way of thinking exactly why we should move away from PdV specifically and go with someone with merit? Still think that he’s a clown of a couch, that is absolutely worthless if not for senior players controlling the team.
9 Jun 2010, 08:40 am
@Gevaar(Gevaar)-29: You know nothing about rugby, maybe you should start blogging on the FIFA website instead.
9 Jun 2010, 08:41 am
And here I thought that the Boks was and are currently coached by senior Boks?
9 Jun 2010, 08:41 am
@Staal(Staal)-22:
can we
shoot
them
9 Jun 2010, 08:46 am
@sglazer: #25 re chkiboy, read middles comment @ 27 and then re-read keo’s article on taking our best young/high school players & investing in them & what australia did with quade cooper! Pdv didn’t start picking all on his own, chili was in the set up already when pdv was appointed.
9 Jun 2010, 08:51 am
The secret to being successful is consistency. Before Jake we had a new coach almost every year ena each tried to enforce a new style of play which ultimately failed. Jake was almost fired as well but thankfully he prevailed.
For SA to stay dominant the coach has to be retained and the selection policy must be based selecting the inform team with a mix of old and new talent.
The Springbok jersey is not cheap and selection of a new prodigy should not be based on one game but on consistent excellent form.
That is what has been the basis of All Black and Aus success.
If you consider the showing of the Lions in the S14 with new staff all over the place from top management to players, it will take them at least 3-4 years to be competitive ifthe status quo is maintaid
9 Jun 2010, 09:04 am
@Porra the Fat Speedster(Porra)-32: yip.. you need ammo? Got plentch here oppie plaas!
9 Jun 2010, 09:07 am
The lengths people go to try and expose Keo as a d o o s is rather bizarre !!!
Who cares ????, he’s opinion is to generate debate /hits , rather successful if you ask me !
9 Jun 2010, 09:08 am
#9
Do you think PDV would have coached a provincial supa 14 side by now. He would still have been a assistant coach for **** or naka
9 Jun 2010, 09:09 am
@Staal(Staal)-35:
No man…….. let them roam and eat in peace !!!
9 Jun 2010, 09:17 am
@justrugby(justrugby)-38: hey i very rarely shoot something oppie plaas but here on this blog i wanna shoot a few!
9 Jun 2010, 09:19 am
I just hope all the racists out there can finally appreciate what Jake White has done for SA rugby.
When he took over our rugby was in the doldrums due to his efforts he left(forced out) the national set up far healthier than when he arrived.
Pdivvy and all future coach’s should bow down and kiss Jakes feet.
9 Jun 2010, 09:24 am
Keo pulls out another race related article.. It’s tired now.
9 Jun 2010, 09:25 am
@Staal(Staal)-39:
LOl…. that’s for sure !!!
9 Jun 2010, 09:29 am
I read this article in the magazine and I thought it was great then, as I do now.
My belief is that South African rugby, as more or less implied by the article, lacks proper business planning around a sports industry.
Something as simple as a SWOT analysis can map out a very clear and concise plan for now and the future.
There are certain risks or ‘threats’ we are faced with in rugby, some are global threats and some uniquely South African, these threats need to be identified and addressed. (Player exodus, player identification and player development as well as transformation are issues to fall under this)
Similarly our strengths (player depth, talent) and opportunities need to be identified and amplified or secured (policies on developing local talent, keeping local talent and criteria’s for selecting overseas based talent and what ‘carrots’ we can hold in front of the noses of the players). This might include privatisation if only in part of rugby or unions in South Africa to improve the cash reserves in rugby locally as well as our most valuable asset with great value even if not monetary being the Bok jersey.
One of our biggest weaknesses though is structures within SA Rugby. Structures such as the Bulls employ needs to be adapted and adopted to a national scale.
The simple goal should be that once players are identified and incorporated into the South African rugby system, to make it close to impossible for them to leave it or get lost in it.
This in my view will remain our biggest challenge as it is our biggest weakness. But if we get that right, SA will dominate rugby union in the way America, Russia, etc dominate the Olympic games.
As a footnote, and seeing it is a major topic of discussion this article with the example of Cooper suggests that both White and Peter are doing the right thing with Chiliboy, having invested so much time and resources in what no doubt was/is a good talent, by keeping him involved. The only criticism being the criteria in which this is done and when, as a business, to perhaps cut your losses and move on.
It will be a very tough call to make in rugby, but it is a very tough call to make in business and that is what rugby is now isn’t it?
9 Jun 2010, 09:30 am
@adi(adi)-37: A Bok assistant coach. Look at the contribution Alistair Coetzee made, and how he developed.
9 Jun 2010, 09:35 am
Perhaps the most stupid and politically correct suck up post I have ever read. Keo you post a lot of insightful stuff but how in the world can you back a buffoon like pdv.
Nobody in their right minds would back this guy. He is just extremely fortunate to have an incredible array of talent available with plenty of player experience. If we win anything it is despite ou pdv – a brainless hatter who is selecting quota players and claiming to select on merit.
Please Keo show some guts and stand up for rugby and decency rather than condoning the appointment of this quota coach who should be muzzled once and for all -what an embarrassment he is!!!
9 Jun 2010, 09:36 am
Yes … A Coetzee didn’t know the difference between a scrum and a ruck … Rassie & Jake het hom mooi geleer.. Nou perform hy
9 Jun 2010, 09:37 am
Why does it take ten years for non-white people to develop where-as whites can just coach (Rassie,****,Naka,)
Allistair has developed a long time ago, he just had to go with the system to get an oppurtunity
9 Jun 2010, 09:38 am
#46
Dankie Baas
9 Jun 2010, 09:39 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-43:
Don’t throw good money after bad money. Meaning just because you unwisely invested loads of cash in Chilliboy in the past, don’t base your future decisions on that.
It is a sunk cost, and I can only imagine the results if the same amount of time and effort had been invested in Adriaan Strauss, for example.
Or you could have saved all that money, and simply picked guys who had risen to the top by themselves, or thanks to the work of their provincial unions. Guys like Gary Botha and Tiaan Liebenberg.
We’re wasting our money on Chilliboy, in my view. The future Bok captain is not Rallapele in any case. It is Dewald Potgieter. Who will also take over the captaincy at Chilliboy’s provincial union, in my view.
9 Jun 2010, 09:40 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-49:
Like I said, where we miss the boat with many players is knowing when to cut your losses.
9 Jun 2010, 09:43 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-50:
Agree.
In my opinion, Maku has now moved past Chilliboy, and they are rougly of a similar age.
9 Jun 2010, 09:48 am
#51
#50
Maku and Chilly will only rotate each other as second choices.
None of them will get a chance, if it is not enforced.
Last year chilly was 2nd and Derrick 1st.
if botha is injured than khun becomes 1st choice
9 Jun 2010, 09:50 am
Its nice reading through all these comments and sittin back reviewing them all. Not everyone did, want to or will acept PDV as the coach just like not everyone will agree as to who the best candidates for the ultimate springbok team must be. One thing is certain though, and that is that PDV is the springboks’s head coach. Like it or not whether there is speculation tha he is immature and not deservant of the position, he is curently the most admired(amongst his peers) international coach in world rugby.
As for our up an coming player, yes they must be nurtured, all of them! Black, white and coloured!
One must never forget it’s one thing to say or claim that we are living in a non racial society but another to shake the legacy of the past. I believe that every non-white player chosen in the spring.
I love my rugby and will always support every south african team representing my country in a match whether thae team is all white or not!
It’s just sorry to see that most people complaining about the team are white!
9 Jun 2010, 09:50 am
@adi(adi)-52:
That should tell you something, shouldn’t it…
9 Jun 2010, 09:51 am
@adi(adi)-52:
Most second choice players will not get an opportunity unless enforced through injury or player availibility and/or rotation policies.
9 Jun 2010, 09:52 am
@SouthAfrican(SouthAfrican)-53:
Well, we certainly don’t complain that Habana or Gurthro is in the team. In fact, we are excited by their inclusion.
There is a message in that, too.
9 Jun 2010, 09:52 am
This point of KEO’s is hi-lighted in the flyhalf position. We never give the guys a chance to develop and hence its always the position we struggle to find depth in and unfortunately its the most NB position in a rugby side.
Very surprised to hear KEO saying that dV should stay on after…
9 Jun 2010, 09:52 am
Look at all the whites supporting Bafana ..with only 1 white player …. why can’t the ppl of colour (like Rosseneri) support a rugby team with only 2-3 coloured/black players?
9 Jun 2010, 09:52 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-51:
I rate Bandise Maku quite highly.
Chilliboy unfortunately is a lost cause, and SA Rugby must cut its losses.
9 Jun 2010, 09:53 am
#54
All people are equal, but white people are still more equal than blacks
9 Jun 2010, 09:54 am
@adi(adi)-60:
Really? Jacob Maroga will be much more equal than me once he gets his R85 mil.
9 Jun 2010, 09:57 am
@sglazer(sglazer)-16:
Oregan did say PDV was appointed for “reasons other than rugby”.
You sound like Keo yesterday putting words in people’s mouth. Hoskins said that reasons other than rugby were ALSO taken into account when PdV was appointed.
You now makes it sound as if the “reasons other than rugby” were the only criteria used with his appointment.
Not true.
9 Jun 2010, 09:57 am
tacitus
Im not sure the future captain is Dewald….from what i see in his games, he’s not a brainiac, but than again i see dat in Schalk also..and he hasnt done a bad job at weepee..
I like a captain with a thinking head on his shoulders like Victor, or john…
i dunno who’ll be future captain…maybe he’s still playin under 21…or maybe it’ll be a senior who didnt retire from international duties? Untill they see who teh young man will be to stand in the shoes of Vic and John…my cents
9 Jun 2010, 09:58 am
@58 People of colour? You are one naive individual! Why should we be happy with any number of non-white players! Those in the bok camp are there on merit! Accept it or move to Australia!
9 Jun 2010, 09:59 am
#61
R85million is nothing in comparison to your apartheid billions stacked away.
You could buy a country for yourself
9 Jun 2010, 10:02 am
South African … wtf ?? January & Chilli there on merit? tell that to G Botha and Liebenberg …. or Kockott/Vermaak .
9 Jun 2010, 10:02 am
@adi(adi)-65:
Ag tog. Ek gaan maar liewer nie verder met hierdie knaap gesels nie. Ek sien daar is ‘n Mount Olympus sized chip op daardie skouer.
Terug na die rugby.
9 Jun 2010, 10:02 am
@adi(adi)-65:
Don’t generalise now.
Otherwise your extremism means you become exactly that which you detest.
9 Jun 2010, 10:09 am
As long as politics stay away from the game, Boks future looks bright. How much bright – it depends.
9 Jun 2010, 10:09 am
Look there is alot of players who were in contention for bok caps, but there is only place for so many. And we can only send 22 to play. As for Kockott, Vermaak and co. they must remember, even when you play in a bad side you must still shine your light! Jaques Forie did it when he played for the Lions.
9 Jun 2010, 10:11 am
#67
I thought this site was about rugby, but i learned from you. What has Jacob got to do with the Bks
#68
It was meant at tacticus
Whether you like it or not PDV are the head coach. His got his players he believes in.
Rather channel your energy to suppoting the boks
9 Jun 2010, 10:13 am
Share the view Potgieter being future Bok captain
Classy player and guy
Reckon he has the abilities to deal with the unique responsibilities of being SA captain
Pleased young talent is being rewarded and groomed in the form of Flip, Potgieter, Flo, De Jongh, Hougaard (when fit)
Personally not to certain bout Aplon and Hargreaves
Never thought i’d say this, also pleased for Olivier
Has worked hard for his chance
Well deserved opportunity
9 Jun 2010, 10:14 am
@adi(adi)-71:
May I refer you to your post #60 and it’s enlightened social commentary?
9 Jun 2010, 10:16 am
@heita(heita)-72:
The reason I think Potgieter will be captain is that Div has already picked him to captain the Emerging Boks, and has mentioned in public how much guys like Potgieter are able to lift those around them with their belief and inspirational presence.
Personally I would like Potgieter to add a few kilos of bulk, but it seems he does not lack in leadership quality.
9 Jun 2010, 10:17 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-74:
I, for one, think Dewaldt Potgieter will be a much better captain for the Bulls than Victor.
Victor to me has always seemed to be a reluctant captain.
9 Jun 2010, 10:18 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-74:
Could be mistaken, think Potgieter has captained at just about every level (barring the Bulls) he has played at
9 Jun 2010, 10:21 am
@WP Till I Die(WP-Forever)-75:
Now, let’s not stretch the praise for the young man TOO far.
9 Jun 2010, 10:25 am
Hi Guys
have not commented for a while but have been reading posts. (articles are a joke)
Tac, i see you now support our coach. Well done buddy. I believe that he will continue to suprise us going forward.
One day when we sit back and reflect will we understand what he meant to the team at his appointed time. [those in denial will then still spew forth their drivel from the comforts of Australia or the UK
]
on the captaincy issue. I was at Orlando stadium for the S14 final. Victor has shown incredible leadership for Bulls. I reckon we would not be wealker if he take the boks to the WC. (I am a great fan of Smit, but his play needs to start improving – Bismarck is waiting in the wings)
Vic could then captain the side for a year or 2 after the WC and hand over. I am worried that no-one currently is showing that leadership potential. (will keep my eye on Potgieter and his progress at the Bulls)
9 Jun 2010, 10:25 am
I guess Dewald Potgieter has good leadership abilities, but I’m not so sure that his rugby playing abilities can match that. He has looked impressive with a Bulls pack which has dominated most of the games in this year’s S14, but he doesn’t seem like a match-winner to me. His “good” at everything he does, makes a couple of tackles a game, but doesn’t have that X-factor you need at test level. Bit of a jack of all trades, master of ….
9 Jun 2010, 10:27 am
@WP Till I Die(WP-Forever)-75: i must say my thinking of the best captain has changed this year.
IMO Vic is the best captain in SA…regarding leadership, example and commitment as well as current form.
there were numerous opportunities for this Bulls side to slip up but he held them together on the field. I toured with them down under in the S14 and his imput impressed me.
believe me when i tell you he is highly rated in the bok team as a captain….. although he isn’t the bok captain.
honestly this guy has impressed me…
my 2 cents.
9 Jun 2010, 10:28 am
@Frankly speaking(Frankly speaking)-79:
That is a fair comment. The ideal is to have your captain be the best in his position in the world. Like NZ’s Richie Mccaw, and the Bulls Victor Matfield.
Unfortunately, the Boks cannot say the same at the moment.
9 Jun 2010, 10:30 am
@Staal(Staal)-80:
I’ll take your word for it. I don’t doubt that he’s a hell of a nice guy.
9 Jun 2010, 10:32 am
For me John Smit remains our best captain
At present seems very fatigued
Difficult to identify best time to rest him
Loss of Fourie Du Preez and Juan Smith has huge effect on team spine
To rest Smit at this time would further remove the spine of the team with a tough 3N fixture list ahead – we start in NZ
In retrospect Boks before region
Smit should have rested during Super 14
9 Jun 2010, 10:33 am
@heita(heita)-83: some good points there.
9 Jun 2010, 10:37 am
@SouthAfrican(SouthAfrican)-70:
You know what I do not share that view.
Logically obviously there is only so many places available in a team, but your structures allows you to create depth and even more so, quality in depth.
The trick again is to create an environment where once you have included a player in your structures, that it is almost impossible for him to leave those structures.
You get that through proper planning and management, mapping out player careers and offering security in an environment and profession as risky as rugby.
The risks of these structures if done correctly then does not only become a monetary issue (players moving for more money) as the value attached to those structures exceeds simple monetary requirements or needs. This happens in business everyday.
Some people will always only move for monetary reasons (I did when I was young) but for most part, the more successful individuals when they are more mature start assessing their careers as to the total value your working environment provides and the security it offers.
The Bulls are getting this right.
9 Jun 2010, 10:37 am
Apartheid billions?
That must have been “forward thinking”…
9 Jun 2010, 10:40 am
@grant10(grant10)-14:
Perhaps, maybe not…Brussow only really started to make a name for himself in 2008.
9 Jun 2010, 10:49 am
barney should take the rest of the year off after the trinations…
He should me played of the bench for the second half of the super 15, spending the first half getting his condiitioning right.
Same goes for victor ludorum.
9 Jun 2010, 10:49 am
There are many people who believe that if talent is identified, that if you persist with developinbg this talent at ‘Bok level, that it will rise up. Take Quade Cooper. ****, but had potential, now getting there.
Many people (including PDV) feel that way about Chilli (right or wrong).
I cast my mind back to Makhaya Ntini. I didn;t feel that his initial selection was on merit, as many did, but he had potential and with time became a great and indispensible part of the team. I hope that by persisting with Chilli we get that same result. I know that there are differences in the comparison but you get my point.
9 Jun 2010, 10:50 am
3. straight talk(Chris Coetzer) :
June 9th, 2010 at 6:23 am
Skopskiet for next bok coach -
and SA rugby heads back to the chaos days of Strauli and Viljoen
9 Jun 2010, 10:51 am
@SouthAfrican(SouthAfrican)-53:
I think perhaps he would love to be seen as controversial, but with good results of course…it’s going well so far.
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-49:
Why Potgieter? IYO? Other than captaining the EBs
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-43:
Perhaps if Heyneke Meyer were chosen, these wouldn’t be a problem?
9 Jun 2010, 10:55 am
geez i dunno about certain assumptions of this article, such as we dont struggle for any worldclass talent in certain positions (3 and 4) and that our schoolboy talent and structures are the best – far as i know nz win the u 19 world cup regularly and france and england klapped us last year. i also dont really believe oz or nz ;develop; their players, they pick on merit and form and talent, same as anyone else. i also dont care what rugby is played or players picked for the rwc, provided they win, that is the coach;s job, winning is his sole yardstick.
But i do agree with the currrent crop of player depth, it would be nice to see if an alternative younger sqaud can be developed while resting the veteran boks to be ready for 2011 – tho tolerating a few losses is easier said than done, i doubt most will tolerate losses fullstop, that is a fact of Springbok rugby. When the Boks lose pressure builds on the coach;s job and his job is to win test matches, not just world cups.
9 Jun 2010, 10:55 am
22. Staal(Staal) :
For once I agree with you Staal
9 Jun 2010, 10:56 am
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-91:
As National Director of Rugby?
For sure, it is what I have been saying for 3 years now.
9 Jun 2010, 10:59 am
“White proved it when he selected nine black players in his match 22 that beat a full-strength Wallabies side 33-20 at Ellis Park in 2005. The Bok line-up, laughed off as a political gesture to former president Nelson Mandela, led 33-8 and with a bit more experience could have put 50 past the Wallabies”
Solly Tyibilika was Man of the Match for the second consecutive game, head to head with George Smith, the other game being Sharks vs Brumbies, yet, once again the SA system spat him out
9 Jun 2010, 11:02 am
to be fair Solly Tyibilika ruined his career by himself
9 Jun 2010, 11:03 am
They are going to have to rest Smit after the 3n’s until the Northern Hemispher tour and maybe through it as well.
No Currie Cup for him please, nor for Victor, maybe even Schalk, even though he has rested a bit due to injury in the last year or so – more than Smit at least.
Juan has had some enforced rest this last year, we need him in top form come WC – still love this guy.
I really rate FLO and actually liked the back 3 we used against Wales. They are good enough to be used in the NH tour later this year.. They need test experience anyway – apart from Big Joe – but he need test game time.
I just hope our coaches have the balls to rest our most over-played players.
9 Jun 2010, 11:06 am
I agree with you Pissant – Jake for Director of SA Rugby – the man is pure rugby genius.
My f’ing hero to be honest
The man took SA rugby from the scraps to the top of the pile – and still many moronic SA supporters can’t appreciate it.
Smit as well, still unappreciated after 94 tests. Too many dimwits around.
9 Jun 2010, 11:07 am
96. quotas_sux(quota_conrad_jantjies_is_jorrie_muller) :
June 9th, 2010 at 11:02 am
to be fair Solly Tyibilika ruined his career by himself
100% agree
9 Jun 2010, 11:08 am
@ 95. XHOSAKID(XHOSAKID)
Solly Tyibilika has a bad history with management at his former unions. I remember when he was contracted by the Lions, he often missed team practises, yet still expected to be picked Saturdays.
He’s got only himself to blame for his demise as he had more chances with the sharks and Boks than a lot of other players could dream of didn’t take them.
9 Jun 2010, 11:13 am
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-95: solly was used as a political pawn unfortunately.
i really rated this guy and am saddened that he was lost to our rugby.
it is not right.
9 Jun 2010, 11:14 am
@Mike H(Mike H)-98:
I think he meant Heyneke Meyer- IMO unparalleled in rugby initiative and development.
9 Jun 2010, 11:14 am
@adi(adi)-60:
if black people can’t make AA or BEE work in their favour arguing that white people are ‘more equal’ than blacks is completely nonsensical.
Any black person who fails to succeed in an environment created for him to succeed is either lazy or incompetent
9 Jun 2010, 11:14 am
This reflexion is kind of naive…
You can’t make 2 teams for the 2011 WC with the 2015 WC in mind. You need to have a group of 40 players, very close in term of level, who can play together, and if one is missing the team is still competitive. They will be picked depending on their form of the moment/injuries/tactics/rules applied etc…
But I agree with the fact that SA rugby has incredible depth, and some players didn’t have the chance/time to prove themselves, and it could be an issue during the 2011 WC…
9 Jun 2010, 11:17 am
102. Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis) :
June 9th, 2010 at 11:14 am
@Mike H(Mike H)-98:
I think he meant Heyneke Meyer- IMO unparalleled in rugby initiative and development.
Ah
I have seen Piss call for JW to be Director of SA Rugby as well – HM is a good choice as well.
But JW is my man, but i respect HM indeed – turned the BUlls from rubble into the best franchise in the world.
9 Jun 2010, 11:23 am
Januarie 4 captain!
9 Jun 2010, 11:40 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-74: Dewaldt Potgieter is a King or a Spear …
9 Jun 2010, 11:45 am
@Mike H(Mike H)-105:
Correct I would not mind either of the two.
I remember in December in 2007 I mentioned Jake would make a mistake if he continued to coach the Boks as his role now should solely be in the management and implementation of structures within the game.
I was not well liked after that comment.
9 Jun 2010, 11:49 am
@quotas_sux(quota_conrad_jantjies_is_jorrie_muller)-96: and @Mike H(Mike H)-99: and@Frankly speaking(Frankly speaking)-100:
Would you guys care to comment on the below, its easy to distort history to suite a certain agenda or perception.
08/Feb/06
“Coach **** Muir has gone with veteran loose forward Warren Britz at No 6 and named Samoan import Daniel Farani on the bench for Saturday’s match against the Chiefs in Durban. It is a selection that will no doubt irk Bok coach Jake White who has spent the last two years trying to convince the Sharks that Tyibilika is good enough to play in the Vodacom Super 14.
Tyibilika earlier in the week told keo.co.za that he needed regular game time ahead of the World Cup and was in the best form of his life. In Bok conditioning tests held over the last year, Tyibilika was always the fittest loose forward in the squad.
While Muir’s decision to play Britz and AJ Venter on the flanks is understandable, he will have a hard time defending the selection of a foreigner ahead of a black Bok.”
9 Jun 2010, 11:50 am
pdv in his 2006 under21 baby boks team, had chiliboy as starting hooker & his captain with maku on the bench, alistair hargreaves was on the wood with wilheim steenkamp & nikolai blignaut as the starting locks…pdv has tried with do exactly what keo & pissant are suggesting with a lot of the guys eg morgan newman (when pdv picked him to go to the bok camp last year or the yr before, everyone & their grandmother were screaming “who the hell is morgan newman?”), adriaan strauss (who was also on the bench), heinke van der merwe
9 Jun 2010, 11:56 am
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-109:
All provincial coaches care about is winning. They will pick whoever gives them the best chance of achieving that goal.
A provincial coach isn’t going to drop a black player if that player increases the chances of the team achieving a win by 1%.
At the same time, he isn’t going to pick a black player if a white player gives the team a 1% better chance of winning.
Coaches don’t care about colour. They care about results. Because that’s what the fans care about, and the fans vote with their wallets when it comes to ticket sales.
It’s a harsh environment, and all that counts is success.
9 Jun 2010, 12:04 pm
@JEZ(DEE DAH)-103: Not all whites succeeded when the system favoured them. So your comment about blacks not being able to make BEE work for them makes no sense. WorKs both ways buddy!
9 Jun 2010, 12:11 pm
Apart from having a formal SA “A” team, like the England Saxons, who play regularly, I reckon we should pay more attention to the original reason for the Super series. Which was to provide a platform for the countrys’ top 150 players at just below test level and eliminate national trials.
The AB policy of allowing the franchises to announce a core squad of 25 contracted players with the national selectors then apportioning non core players that they want to see more of to bolster other franchises, is the better option. This wouldn’t affect CC contracts but would ensure that young players don’t get hoarded by the unions or kept out by more established ones. Currently the Unions/Franchises are the ones deciding who the national selectors get to see.
9 Jun 2010, 12:28 pm
Beeno – Your comments from post 40odd are very rude and derogatory towards PDV. I believe/know that PDV has done very well as a coach, he has good people skills and is not too arrogant to learn from his mistakes!!
I do still belive we are benefiting from the White era, but it still takes a good coach to continue it!
Take Markgraaf(kkk lookalike) for instance, inherited the well coached(Christie) RWC95 team and destroyed it.
9 Jun 2010, 12:36 pm
Here are a lot of fake people. The boks are winning.
But it seems thats not good enough. Then you have to conclude its the colour of the head coach.
9 Jun 2010, 12:37 pm
Hey KEO – regarding your twits, encase you didn’t know there’s another game against France and one against Italy for Butch to play…
9 Jun 2010, 12:42 pm
a lot of people here would really like us to believe that jake white is some rugby messiah when white himself 18 months to the ’07 world cup admitted he had no succession plan in place and was annoyed with provincial coaches for not resting the guys he depended on. If jake masterfully engineered succession in sa rugby why didn’t he field the team of supa dupa youngsters that he’d identified as the next tier when he rested the boks for the away leg of the tri-nations?
9 Jun 2010, 12:48 pm
@Bok fan(Bok fan)-116: you are wrong.
France a 1 off
then 2 games vs Italy.
9 Jun 2010, 12:50 pm
@adi(adi)-115:
“Here are a lot of fake people.”
Oh…no…we…have…been…found…out. Robots!…prepare…for…retaliatory…action…
Over…and…out.
Bizzzzzt. Fizzzt.
9 Jun 2010, 13:01 pm
@grant10(grant10)-118: G10, you see Deysel is under the knife for a wrist injury. Explains his absence over the last 2 weeks.
9 Jun 2010, 13:02 pm
@Oubaas2009(Oubaas2009)-120: That explains it then.
Blow for sharks if he cant play in CC….
I see brussow renewed contract with cheetahs till end 2011 as well.
9 Jun 2010, 13:03 pm
@Oubaas2009(Oubaas2009)-120:
Oh noes! How long will he be out?
9 Jun 2010, 13:04 pm
@grant10(grant10)-121: Yip, Alberts also injured at the mo.
Pity about Brussouw. ‘Dolf has a Durban Country Club membership lined up for him.
9 Jun 2010, 13:06 pm
@Oubaas2009(Oubaas2009)-123: LOL
Ja….Sharks been after him for over a year now.
Alberts out as well!!
Hell….give that Rhodes and Downey chaps a go !
9 Jun 2010, 13:06 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-122: According to sharksworld, Deysel out for at least 5 weeks. Not sure about Alberts but apparently undergoing ankle surgery today.
9 Jun 2010, 13:07 pm
@grant10(grant10)-118: Oops my bad, still 2 more games for Butch to get a run though
9 Jun 2010, 13:08 pm
no Keo are you in G10′s words are you mal? Only losers like Henry gets a second term.
9 Jun 2010, 13:09 pm
@grant10(grant10)-124: Yip, its a pity. A Deysel/Alberts would have been great against France even if just off the bench with Pottie as well, if we had gone with a 5-2. Ah well.
9 Jun 2010, 13:11 pm
Will be interesting who plays against Italy. I am sure they will bring in a ‘B’ side for the first test to allow rest for Matfield, Smit, Fourie, Rousouw, etc.
Then the 2nd test? Do you get the ‘A’ side together to get some momentum going before 3N? Or do you keep resting the stars?
9 Jun 2010, 13:14 pm
@Oubaas2009(Oubaas2009)-129: pdv has said he will use a North bok team and a south bok team against Italy, and use it to experiment.
So i reckon stars may be rested for both games….
9 Jun 2010, 13:15 pm
of course if we lose 1 st test against italy expect a change of approach!!
9 Jun 2010, 13:17 pm
@grant10(grant10)-130: Oh, yes. Forgot about that, he’s been rather quiet about that lately. Wonder if his mind has changed.
I suppose JDV will need some game time, Bakkies too. Butch will be in the mix no doubt.
9 Jun 2010, 13:21 pm
@grant10(grant10)-131: That damn Castro will be lurking.
Interesting thought about who the backup loosehead is going to be? Beast, Wian, Heinke all out of contention. Leaving CJ possibly covering 1 and Jannie 3? After CJ we start scratching around a little…
Coenie, Blaauw, Cilliers? They just jumped a few places in the queue!
9 Jun 2010, 13:23 pm
hell I just read the whole article and now my head hurts. Keo kuk that you are writing these days is not on.
9 Jun 2010, 13:25 pm
117. Transformation(Transformation) :
He started off with a group of youngsters, he picked them from nothing, on belief in their talents – why did he have to develop a second group come World Cup time.
We went from having one of the most inexperienced teams in the world to one of the most capped come WC time.
His succession planning was building a team of experience. Any youngsters coming into that setup learn exponentially.
Jake White said to his palyers in the first weeks of becoming coach his goal was to resurrect SA rugby and win the WC.
He achieved that.
PDV is the one that got given a team on the top of the world, he needs to do the developing now. Fourie said he loved playing under PDV, PDV proved he can take experienced palyers and give them an environment to thrive.
9 Jun 2010, 13:26 pm
@Oubaas2009(Oubaas2009)-133: ja….i agree….
Jannie covering BJ
CJ covering guthro.
Butch must be given a shot at 10….not bloody 12…[ thats almost as mal as playing smit at 3 ! ].
I am a Butch fan….imo the best 10 we have, although currently M Steyn just too hot to drop.
Work to do….till later.
outta here
9 Jun 2010, 13:56 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-135:
Which youngsters made their debuts under Jake White??
He did not start off with a group of youngsters
Players already capped when Jake selected them:
Os
Percy
Burger
Matfield
Bakkies
Mal Jaco
Marius Joubert
Julies
Smit
Juan Smith
Joe V Niekerk
Danie PK
P3
Breyton
Gaffie
CJ Davids
Bolla
9 Jun 2010, 13:58 pm
The biggest problem SA rugby has had for years has been the unprofessional standard of administration,particularly at provincial level. It is no surprise then that the three SA teams who are performing well now are those who have implemented professional standards to best utilise their playing roster as well as setting high standards of management.
Nowhere is this more evident than in the contrast between the Bulls and the Lions. These two teams are spitting distance apart.
Joburg is the financial powerhouse of the country with every advantage that goes with it and yet the Bulls implement a highly professional regime while the Lions are like Boswell Wilkies circus without a ringleader.
The current state of rugby in SA is what it should have been for years. Regardless of this rugby fans in SA will always be at odds with the coach’s selections due to provincialism and the fact that every rugby fan ( quite rightly,too) thinks he/ she is an expert of unparalleled authority.
There can ultimately be only one criterion by which a coach of such an expectant country can be judged. That is results. Jake did it and PdV is doing it. Disagree with him as much as we like, the Boks and SA rugby is doing a lot better than it did under a lot of others. That to me is bloody brilliant.
9 Jun 2010, 13:59 pm
How many caps? virtually none except for a few. Ofc no coach is going to start a team of no caps
9 Jun 2010, 14:03 pm
@stormer in a teacup(stormer in a teacup)-138:
A successful team/union is built around its leaders, this is mainly the reason the Lions fail.
9 Jun 2010, 14:03 pm
137. wpw(wpw) :
How many caps in total. Only a couple of those players had any caps behind them. I think Paulse might have been one of the most capped in there.
No coach is going to start completely from scratch, PDV sure as hell didn’t and nor will the next guy.
Jake’s core was Smit, Victor, Bakkies, Os, Juan, Schalk, JDV (wing at the time).
He obviously had to include more as he went along, some didn’t always work out but his core prevailed and are the core today.
Take the team that went to the WC and then compare the caps to the team Jake started with.
That’s what i mean
9 Jun 2010, 14:05 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-141:
The starting 15 had a combined total on 179 caps.
9 Jun 2010, 14:07 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-141:
You may be right.
I can’t believe Gaffie was at fullback ahead of Percy.
Maybe Percy was not available or back from Wales yet!!
9 Jun 2010, 14:16 pm
The question is can our backup team be competitive in the 3N, and will the australasians hit the roof if our top bokke are not selected?
And if going to select for development, surely gotta look at those positions we dont have alot of depth, i.e. 3, 4 and wing. I’d say it;d be a good idea to pick a younger side for the away leg of the 3N and also for the EOY tour – this will give the senior boks a good total 6 month rest before 2011.
1. Beast 2. Bismarck 3. WP 4. Sykes 5. Flip 6. Louw 7. Potgieter 8. Alberts 9. Hougaard 10. Pienaar 11. Van Den Heever 12. Olivier 13. De Jong 14. Mapoe 15. Viljoen
16. CJ 17. Rallapelle 18. Kruger 19. Bekker 20. Brussow 21. Basson 22. Frans Steyn
9 Jun 2010, 14:18 pm
143. wpw(wpw) :
Ye and teh worst part was how SA supporters basically kicked Percy out the country and Jake dragged him back and in the end he became the most capped Springbok in history with nearly every points record behind his belt.
Got to love our supporters
9 Jun 2010, 14:24 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-145:
Yeah I agree.
Our good friend Tacitus is one of them. He still refuses to acknowledge that Percy is one of the All Time Greats of Bok rugby.
To him Percy was just a good kicker.
9 Jun 2010, 14:29 pm
@wpw(wpw)-137: Du Preez, Frans Steyn, JP Pietersen, Pierre Spies, the du Plessis brothers, BJ Botha, Ruan Pienaar, Bryan Habana, akona ndugane, wynand olivier, ricky januarie, gary botha, Johan muller, chilly willy, guthro steenkamp…… all JW debutants.
9 Jun 2010, 14:34 pm
146. wpw(wpw) :
Ye it’s not worth reading what Tacitus has to say at the best of times.
I’m sure he is still proud that the Springboks are WC champions but remembers it only as the Bulls playing and the team was coached by HM.
9 Jun 2010, 14:48 pm
People have short memories. I read here how JW was torn apart by all and sundry – me included. Then he wins a WC and suddenly he is the hero. I still think he is a useless coach and base my statement on the following:
1. We won the WC without playing Aus, NZ or France
2. Drafting Eddie Jones was a stroke of genius, but also a confession on his part that he did not know what he was doing.
The point is that he may be a brilliant technical analyst of the game, but that does not make him a good coach.
PDV is a good coach. He may not be the best technical analyst or the most eloquent at press conferences, but he knows what type of rugby he wants to play and he can convey that idea to his players and can coach them accordingly. He may have made mistakes in the past, but on the whole he is putting us in a far better position than JW ever did and would have if he still was the coach.
9 Jun 2010, 14:49 pm
If people like Skop and Tacitus had any say in the coaching or selecting of our team we’d go back to the days of Strauli and Viljoen.
A bunch of chickens running around with our heads cut off.
I am happy to acknowledge when someone has done a good job no matter if they are Afrikaans or English, Bulls or Lions, Black or White.
Jake did a f’ing good job and Smit was the kingpin and still is today. Victor has come a long way in the leadership stakes and that can only help the cause.
I just dare say I will tell you so when Smit is gone. Just have to take taht disastrous 3n’s where Smit was injured and Victor was Captain to see the issue. Even though Victor has come on leaps and bounds with his leadership, he said it himself he was a bad leader 4 year ago and he was. I bet he has learnt a lot from Smit and obviously HM to make him who he is today.
9 Jun 2010, 14:50 pm
149. GI POT(GI POT) :
You actually think Eddie turned the team into a WC winner in 2 months – lol.
That’s all i need to say with regards to your opinion.
9 Jun 2010, 14:53 pm
Eddie added value but he couldn;t even get Saracens to the Top of the supposably inferior Premiership.
Eddie added value and yes all coaches have assistants for a reason.
But to say Eddie won the WC for us is just stupidity.
There was 4 years of grooming and planning involved in us winning the Wc.
9 Jun 2010, 14:54 pm
@stormer in a teacup(stormer in a teacup)-138: Good summary and I agree fully.
@GI POT(GI POT)-149: Oh and add to that the success of the Bulls and Sharks in the S14 because of Henry’s decision to rest his AB’s – gave our guys a huge mental advantage as the mental block of beating the NZ sides was given a big dent
9 Jun 2010, 15:01 pm
so what exactly is keo saying in this long tirade?
we should be more patient with our chosen players?
9 Jun 2010, 15:01 pm
Have to agree that the Super 14 has delivered some fine prospects to take the Boks further post 2011. There is healthy competition betwen old stalwarts and fresh faces in most positions and a whole crop of youngsters who will run a development foot race to be the guns of the next few seasons.
Another aspect that is often forgotten is the development of our coaches. We played catch-up for much of the nineties and simply didn’t have enough quality coaches available. There is a good base of senior coaches in place, while a number of “emerging” talents are staking a claim and we have succesful coaches that have stepped up to directorship positions.
The game in SA is in a very healthy way at present and with correct planning and a little belief can only prosper further.
Bring on the world and let’s show them what we have.
9 Jun 2010, 15:05 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-151: Listen, you chop, I am saying that I am amazed at how the sentiments towards JW changed after we won the WC and I am saying that there was an uncanny set of circumstances that led to our victory
1. Beat Samoa
2. Beat a bad England
3. Beat Tonga – by a whisker
4. Beat Fiji – with great effort
5. Beat Argentina
6. Beat England the same poor England
ET VOILLA – We are world champions and JW is the saviour of the world – the best coach ever.
But, what does his record against NZ, Aus and France look like?
I know at least five other nations who would beat those sides nine times out of ten to win a World Cup.
All may be forgiven and forgotten in many minds because of us winning the trophy, but I do not forget. The sad thing is that PDV is building us into a real force and the chances that he may not win us the WC are real. Will he be considered an inferior coach to JW?
No, JW did not leave a legacy as significant as everyone thinks. He selected those players, yes, but would they not have been selected anyway had another coach been in his position?
9 Jun 2010, 15:12 pm
@GI POT(GI POT)-156: name your five sides mate.
i want to hear this.
you seem to forget that the argies beat the frogs at the same wc-twice.
9 Jun 2010, 15:17 pm
@GI POT(GI POT)-156:
what jake brought to bok rugby was;
pride in the jersey
respect from opponents (after that streuali/krige regime)
experienced squad
a goal (rwc2007)
don’t think he ever was a brilliant rugby coach and was quite stubborn in getting his way.
but he certainly redeemed bok rugby in the eyes of the world
9 Jun 2010, 15:19 pm
@GI POT(GI POT)-156: ja…..
i am with you.
If it wasnt for the WC win Jake would have been remembered as nothing as an average coach with a limited game plan.
Purely on a rugby front he certainly did not impress me.
9 Jun 2010, 15:19 pm
@GI POT(GI POT)-149: Gotta take issue with the assessment of JW. We won without playing NZ, Aus and France, not because we had a bye but because they didn’t have the stones to go the distance. We beat the team who came second twice as well as the team who came third. France lost twice to the team who came third. The ABs, aussies and france held no fear for us. We were clearly the best prepared and most well rounded team at the tournament. We had a team able to adjust playing styles as required with the leadership and character to pull any game out of the fire. I would love to have played the ABs, Aussies and France, just to shut them up, but when we hit the park they were nowhere to be found.
Jones was a good recruit. He was a consultant and no more. He has done sod all as a head coach but brought an extra insight into bok backline play. Good management on the part of JW to bring him in.
PdV has his strengths as well. He has had a good start to his tenure. He too will be judged on how he handles the toughest teat of all.
9 Jun 2010, 15:21 pm
@charo(charo)-158: also true….
but without doubt he allowed all sorts of agendas to cloud his reign, but its a great day….and a long walk is in order….
cheers
9 Jun 2010, 15:22 pm
156. GI POT(GI POT) :
I never said PDV was a worse coach than Jake. Jake irratates me no end that Jake doesn’t get the appreciation he deserves, and when you come with tripe like Eddie won us the WC it just degrades anything you say further.
PDV inherited an organised respected team, Jake inherited rabble. I respect PDV for taking that team on and developing them further and not returning us to rubble again.
But PDV’s real test will come when he has to rebuild, if he is reappointed.
9 Jun 2010, 15:24 pm
Correction
It irratates me no end that Jake doesn’t get the appreciation he deserves, and when you come with tripe like Eddie won us the WC it just degrades anything you say further.
9 Jun 2010, 15:27 pm
the fact that he reedemed what was in shambles doesn’t make him the rugby god that most here would like to see him exalted to! there’s plenty of articles & interviews, some written on this website that show that jake was no master of the universe who made rugby miracles. Nick Mallet’s “video analyst” as Alan Solomons once referred to him is no rugby genius.
9 Jun 2010, 15:32 pm
He played a Game plan that won WC’s and at the same time he was developing a team not taking it on from already being established.
Victor didn’t get 93 caps under PDV or Smit 93, 70% came under JW.
And you telling me that up and under **** last year was not limited – but it worked.
What we play now is not much differnet from what we played under Jake White.
The new rules will make the game more expansive but the old rules were about territory and defence – exactly what Jake played and what won us the WC.
So really Grant tell me where Jake was limited in coaching astuteness.
9 Jun 2010, 15:33 pm
What did Alan Solomons ever do, took Northamton to relegation – enough said
9 Jun 2010, 15:45 pm
MikeH is a jake white groupie – enough said
9 Jun 2010, 15:49 pm
HAHA I am.
Interestingly, since PDV and Jake stopped coaching the U21 we haven’t wona damb thing
9 Jun 2010, 15:49 pm
that said, a big thank you to Jake for ressurecting the Bok under difficult circumstances (the Blue Bulls union tried to sabotage him). We will forever be indebted to you Jakey
9 Jun 2010, 15:51 pm
If Pdv is a quota coach by virtue of not coaching a Super rugby team or winning,what about Harry Viljoen,Markgraaf,Straeliu,Jake White?Just because they are white then they deserved to be bok coaches?Leave Pdv alone and who says Heyneke Meyer was going to be succesful,he could have gone on and failed.
9 Jun 2010, 15:53 pm
169. Transformation(Transformation) :
With you on that one mate. I remember too clearly those days between 1999 and 2003. Hundred new caps in a season.
Poor old SHaun Sowerby – 1 cap callup and now can never play for France where they actually appreciate him
9 Jun 2010, 15:55 pm
@@bantu beeko: #169 heyneke meyer is a rugby god, he won the super14 with a team he built brick by brick himself…
9 Jun 2010, 16:02 pm
172. Transformation(Transformation) :
if that’s your arguement then Jake is as well.
Yes HM built something from nothing. At least he gets the respect for it.
9 Jun 2010, 16:02 pm
I tend to believe the rise of the Bulls and Sharks star players as developed by those unions had greater contribution towards out national success than Jakey himself
Those unions developed Smit, Matfield, Bakkies, Russouw, Fourie, Habana, JPP, et al
Little coincedence, Sharks and Bulls contested the Super rugby finals same as World Cup year
Jake simply enjoyed the cream of those unions development and efforts
9 Jun 2010, 16:03 pm
@ Trans who would’ve thought Robbe Deans would struggle with the wallabies after dominating super rugby and some people want us to believe that HM would have been a success with the Boks just because he won 1 super rugby title.
9 Jun 2010, 16:04 pm
bantu beeko … what you doing in front of your pc … banana banana is in sandton, they need your support…. go make the circle bigger
9 Jun 2010, 16:06 pm
I was hoping someone had some insight into this statement.
Since Jake and PDV stopped coaching the U21 side they haven’t won a damb thing.
Is that statement correct? I don;t recall us winnin since PDV left and I know Jake won it prior to that.
Interesting if it is true
9 Jun 2010, 16:07 pm
175. Bantu Beeko(Koos van der merwe) :
You do have a point.
Deans was a Rugby god in the eyes of NZ’anders.
But we have to admit he has teh vision to build something from nothing
9 Jun 2010, 16:07 pm
@Bantu Beeko(Koos van der merwe)-170: PdV is a superstar.
interestingly, his colourful comments are not being publiscised widely enough any more.
like his chirps about the boks being a prickly pear to wales.
the man is hilarious.
9 Jun 2010, 16:09 pm
Quotas…that mentality of yours is outdated,its people like you who inspire groups like Blackwash.
9 Jun 2010, 16:16 pm
174. heita(heita) :
Otherway round. Sharks were nothing before Jake White took over the Springboks, nor were the Bulls
International experience trumps S14 experience any day
9 Jun 2010, 16:16 pm
Being a national coach is nt child’s play.you have to deal with players from different provinces,backgrounds,cultures,languages etc,it does nt only require coaching abilities.
9 Jun 2010, 16:16 pm
@quotas_sux(quota_conrad_jantjies_is_jorrie_muller)-176: Ag my ou jy maak jou eie naam maar net bollie. Gaan speel in die verkeer
9 Jun 2010, 16:19 pm
@rangerman(rangerman)-179: Stuff of legends bru. He confuses the media and the oposition so much that they cannot focus on the real issues. I think it is all an act.
9 Jun 2010, 16:20 pm
Tune hom boer.
9 Jun 2010, 16:26 pm
So tell me what coaching experience and results have KEOlites got that entitles them to ascertain that JW or PDV are useless or incompetent. As far as I recall the only people whose criticism carries weight are those who have been there and done it before. Not even GH or RD can say they have achieved what PDV and JW achieved yet they are promoted on here as rugby gods. The assumption that is made is that if they had the same playing power they would achieve more – pure speculation i think.
9 Jun 2010, 16:29 pm
@grant10(grant10)-159: Same here. Jake made a lot of coaching errors during his reign. There is a reason why a down to earth guy like F du Preez had problems with White. A typical hoerskool onnie that was quite dictatorial in his management style.
9 Jun 2010, 16:31 pm
@bananaboy(bananaboy)-186: Coaching an under 5′s cricket team here in Yorkshire. Does that count?
9 Jun 2010, 16:36 pm
@GI POT(GI POT)-156: @grant10(grant10)-159: articles like this tend to reinforce your view…
This entry was posted on Thursday, November 30th, 2006 at 6:00 am
Why results matter
Keo, in his News 24 column, writes that if Jake White has to pay R350 to watch the Boks lose every Saturday he’ll also start believing test results are important.
If five wins out of 12 is acceptable fare for the Springboks then don’t waste your time on a World Cup ticket in 2007.
Jake White has told us not to judge him on five wins out of 12, but on what his strongest team could do at the World Cup – the kind of team that has beaten the All Blacks in the past few years, but also that team that lost in Dublin to Ireland and at Twickenham to England.
For the moment, let’s forget about the losses and concentrate on the wins, even if they haven’t been that many.
And let’s look at who achieved our famous wins for the Bok coach.
The Boks, if they put together their strongest team, can beat anyone on their day. How often have I heard this in the past 12 months? Hell, I’ve even said it myself on more than 10 occasions.
But will the Boks ever put out their strongest team? And does such a thing actually exist?
The Bok coach has said often this year that the ideal match 22 he has in his mind has (in 37 tests) never played. That could be because they’re all New Zealanders, but we’ll give Jake the benefit on this one and actually believe they are all South Africans.
Then, what is the best XV? Is it an ageing Percy Montgomery or a youthful Francois Steyn? Schalk Burger, Juan Smith, Danie Rossouw, Pierre Spies, Kabamba Floors and Pedrie Wannenburg don’t go into three. It can only be one of Ricky Januarie or Fourie du Preez at scrumhalf … the best to beat Ireland is perhaps a different best to beat New Zealand.
You need bulk to batter the Kiwis, but more mobility to see off the Wallabies. Which is better and what makes one player better than the other? One’s skill could be potent in a particular game plan and not a factor when played in a different combination.
It is fantastic to develop depth and to have two or more players to cover every position. But the moment a team reaches that level, what they gain in quality they lose in talk of a best team. The latter term then no longer exists because you can only play 15 at one time.
So when Jake White says his best team can beat the All Blacks and whoever else at the World Cup and win it, who is this best team he has developed over three years?
You’d have to say Steyn has overtaken Montgomery, even if White won’t be as quick to agree with you. You’d have to say Bryan Habana’s shares have dropped, even if White won’t agree with you. You could argue a place has to be made for Wynand Olivier and that Jaque Fourie and Jean de Villiers aren’t as good as we’d like to think. Of the flyhalves Andre Pretorius rose from the dead at Twickenham, but only next year will tell us if the life in his international career has 12 months or more. Can Butch James’s knees take another year and will Meyer Bosman come good?
At scrumhalf there’s Ruan Pienaar, Januarie and Du Preez. Who do you play against whom?
The loosies number 10, but only three can start. We know who the locks will be, we know who the hooker will be if White takes the team to the World Cup and we know who the loosehead prop will be, even though White keeps on bemoaning Gurthro Steenkamp’s absence. If he can breathe, Os du Randt will be there.
Given this little exercise you can’t say with any certainty after three years of White’s coaching which is the best 15 out of the 64 players he has used.
And I seriously doubt White can tell us who they are either.
This brings me back to results and the need to win more than you lose every Saturday during the test match season.
White has to be judged on the team he picks every test and on the subsequent results. If we do that we are dealing in tangibles.
If we start buying into the ‘judge me at the World Cup’ and ‘when I pick my ideal team’ then we may as well stop keeping score on a Saturday and all sign up for the fantasy league.
And if we do that then SARU may as well stop charging outrageous cash for test match tickets.
Professional coaches are well paid to do a job and that job is about each Saturday and not 44 supposedly meaningless tests between World Cups; tests that cost the punter more than R350 a pop.
Sorry Jake, but you have to be judged on a 59 percent win record in the last three years. No more and no less.
If SARU’s bosses believe that is acceptable, then you should stay. If not, then get in the queue for a World Cup ticket and you’ll soon start seeing that when you are paying every test result does actually count. When you’re cashing big dollars to watch a team, you are entitled to performance and not four year promises from coaches.
I’ve said it often: the World Cup has become a four year excuse for the majority of the game’s coaches. The World Cup should be a bonus to winning more test matches in four years than you actually lose.
This entry was posted on Thursday, November 30th, 2006 at 6:00 am and
9 Jun 2010, 16:40 pm
@Boer in beton(Boer in beton)-188: I coach an under 15 rugby team here in Holland and don’t feel qualified to make the statements that are sometimes made on here. Coaching as you know involves so many variables and some are are better at some variables than others. Doesn’t make them bad coaches particularly when despite their weaknesses their achievements reflect positively. They have to be doing something right.
If I could use a footballing comparison of Alex Ferguson compared with Arsene Wenger. Who would you say is the better coach/manager and why? What do their performances say and by what criteria do you measure their success as a coach?
9 Jun 2010, 16:42 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-189: Same thing happened to Alex Ferguson in his early reign at Man Utd , did that mean he is a bad coach.? Jake asked to be judged on 1 thing only the WC.
9 Jun 2010, 16:43 pm
And how many did we win before Jake took over. Easier to take a winning or developed team and take it up a level.
Try building something from rabble. That’s your arguement for HM and it is the same for JW.
Just HM gets respect – he was in charge when the Bulls were getting killed but finally turned it around.
I’d love to see HM win ratio with the Bulls in his tenture there.
Both are greats in modern SA rugby history and both should be appreciated and respected.
9 Jun 2010, 16:59 pm
@bananaboy(bananaboy)-190:
My comment was tongue in cheek but you are right, there are many variables in making a good coach:
1. Management style – dictator, consultative, everyone’s chum, etc
2. Technical knowledge of the game
3. Strong/weak team around you – some like strong people in their management team, others get threatend and have weaker people close to them (Zuma vs Mbeki good examples of the 2 extremes)
4. Respect – how do you command respect? (many coaches never do)
5. Strategic thinking – how good are you as a coach to be more than tactical?
6. Analytical skills
7. General people skills
Wenger and Fergie are quite different in their coaching styles and both have had a lot of success with their respective teams. Now my wendyball knowledge is very limited, so I may embaras myself here, but it seems like Fergie is more of a dictatorial coach, with limited people skills, but still commands respect. Wenger – I really do not know. I must ask a mate of mine, he is Arsenal crazy.
9 Jun 2010, 17:03 pm
@bananaboy: #191 can we please judge pdv on the world cup too? Forget tri-nations, eoyt & all other insignificant competitions, can the man please be judged on the WORLD CUP 2011 only?
9 Jun 2010, 17:04 pm
Jake was a rather licky coach in the WC. The draw favoured him as did his lack of injuries to his key players with JdeV being the only one.
In my opinion Jake was an OK coach when it came to tactics. As an analyst he identified a teams weaknesses and how to counter them in defence. As a creative tactician on attack he was sorely lacking which is where Eddie Jones came to his rescue.
9 Jun 2010, 17:06 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-194: Most certainly if thats his stated objective. Of course as with Jake if we don’t think that ought to be his objective and he is not willing to adjust then we fire him
a discussion that was equally applicable to JW.
9 Jun 2010, 17:06 pm
To add: Did Jake bring out the best in his individual players. I don’t think so.
9 Jun 2010, 17:15 pm
Some of you guys are incredibly tough with the coach of your national team… Regarding the results they had, JW in the world cup, PdV lately (2009 was incredible)they should be regarded as some of the best in the world…
Some of you have a short memory to judge JW like that, this proves very well that this is the toughest job in the world…
9 Jun 2010, 17:15 pm
@David(David)-197: Explain why you think so. What gives you the idea that they could have been better and what have they done subsequent to substantiate that argument?
9 Jun 2010, 17:21 pm
why aren’t countries, unions, international club etc jostling each other for Jake White’s Winning Ways? If he is soooo kwaai…
9 Jun 2010, 17:21 pm
If it weren’t for all those injuries last year, this would be PDV’s first choice team:
1. Beast
2. Bismarck
3. John Smit
4. Bakkies Botha
5. Victor Matfield
6. Schalk Burger
7. Juan Smith
8. Pierre Spies
9. Fourie du Preez
10. Ruan Pienaar
11. Bryan Habana
12. Jean de Villiers
13. Adi Jacobs
14. JP Pietersen
15. Conrad Janjties
Think back to last year. If there was not one injury, that would have been the team for the whole year. Remember, Brussow originally wasn’t even in the squad! Let’s see here, Tendai “useless” Mtawarira, Bismarck “penalty!” du Plessis and John Smit at tight head. Then no Brussow, then Ruan Pienaar at fly half. Adi Jacobs over Jaques Fourie. JP Pietersen over van den Heever, Francois Hougaard, Aplon or Mapoe. And Conrad Jantjies over Francois Steyn. He’s more like a very lucky coach rather then a good one
9 Jun 2010, 17:27 pm
@rugbywriter(rugbywriter)-201:
He wanted to see players, to see how they perform on a test level. Thinking that you can keep the same 15 for 4 years is stupid… You need to have a group of 35 40 players in mind. And also be lucky enough to keep your masterpieces out of injury on D Day!
9 Jun 2010, 17:38 pm
@David(David)-195: The draw certainly did not favour us. We had the second toughest pool of all considering our opposition (after France, Argentina and Ireland).
Apart from playing England, we had tough physical encounters against Tonga and Western Samoa (who we always seem to draw at WC’s
I agree that our performance against Tonga was especially disappointing, but they really brought all their physical presence to the party and is a bruising team to play against and more often than not try to hurt you on purpose.
To those who say we were lucky with the play-offs, just remember – you can only write the exam paper that is in front of you. France beat the All Blacks, England beat the Wallabies. France lost to the Argies. Twice.
And I don’t want to hear that the All Blacks would have beaten us if we played them and that they were cheated out with a forward pass. The former statement is a purely normative one and the second fact (yes, it was forward) cannot be held forward (excuse the pun) as the reason for their defeat.
In fact, the All Blacks were beaten fair and square. After the quarter-final in Cardiff, Paddy O’Brien (a Kiwi) analysed the match and, I quote from the timesonline: ‘produced statistics that showed how good Barnes had been. Of more than 600 decisions he had had to make, he got only five wrong – an error rate of less than 1 per cent. The forward pass was one of those, but that was not the reason New Zealand lost the game; that was more to do with their inability to handle the pressure.’
Would I could go back to the SA-Aus semi-final of 1999 and look for mistakes made by the officials and hold it forward for our defeat if I managed to ascertain bad decisions? No, but it would be a convenient excuse for some.
9 Jun 2010, 17:41 pm
@rugbywriter: #201 how many of last weekend’s selections were injury forced? And even after the injuries you’re crowing about he could’ve seleceted palooka to replace them…
9 Jun 2010, 17:47 pm
@bananaboy(bananaboy)-199:
I’ll have to answer you a bit later as I’m in the middle of making supper.
9 Jun 2010, 17:48 pm
@David(David)-205: Hey David, hope someone will be fetching you a beer for dessert
9 Jun 2010, 17:53 pm
Both JW and PdV are both good coaches.
JW did an amazing job for SA rugby and anyone that cant see that is dumb as well as blind.
Most of you go on about world cup draws, etc, etc – fact of the matter is there have been few bok teams favoured so highly to win a world cup. We beat who was put in front of us, and the team the way it was, free from injury which JW had struggled with in 2007, was a fkg great team.
JW was just too conservative, but he knew how rugby games were won and how teams were crafted started from the basics, sounds set pieces, structures, defence and winning – thereafter comes the champagne stuff.
But the Boks needed some fresh impetus and PdV is the man for the job.
Just so happens he has a way with words too.
9 Jun 2010, 17:54 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-150: Many people blame the drop in form of the Springboks in 2008 to Matfield’s captaincy. However, there are many other reasons for that. Firstly, there was a reluctance from many of the players to adapt to the ELVs. Secondly, there were conflicting opinions with regards to playing styles. Thirdly, there were several players injured or not available (Bakkies Botha and John Smit as hooker).
Matfield has proven the last couple of years and especially this year that he is an astute captain. He was lambasted for not taking kickable penalties by all and sundry but he used home-ground advantage and favorable refereeing circumstances with regards to the rolling maul to go for tries. After 5 round the Bulls had 25 points on the log and the other teams were playing catch-up.
Matfield will make a superb Springbok captain right now with a settled team and clear objectives.
9 Jun 2010, 17:55 pm
Is it only me that finds the opening paragraph of this article confusing?
Honestly, where is Keo’s blueprint?
9 Jun 2010, 18:02 pm
I still haven’t read my SA Rugby mags for the past 2 months…
9 Jun 2010, 18:06 pm
@SpringbokSarah(SpringbokSarah)-210:
personally the quality of content has dropped but it is at least still good enough for the long drop.
Keep it in your toilet, at least its much better reading than the You or People magazines…
9 Jun 2010, 18:08 pm
Still on the race issue?
Perhaps one of the sports journalists here at keo.co.za should run an article on how many coloureds(“non-ethic blacks” so-called by the ANC) and WP players have been elevated/kept/persisted with/brought back to Springbok/Emerging Springbok status/group/squad now that Jake White is no longer “restricting” Peter Jooste and seeing as Pieter de Villiers is also a WP-fanatic.
Selections ought not to be made with the heart (especially by a small group of “non-representative” men);
Earl Rose
Morgan Newman
Bolla Conradie
Conrad Jantjies
Adi Jacobs
Ricky Januarie
Juan de Jongh (bless his soul-maybe the only youngster on merit)
Davon Ruabenheimer
Ashley Johnson
Hilton Lobberts
Gio Aplon
Heini Adams
Burton Francis
Zane Kirchner
Since 2008 when Pieter de Villiers took over from Jake White. Why? Can anyone explain the merit/numbers-logic? Is it because Jooste and De Villiers have free rein?
I won’t include Gurthro Steenkamp and Habana, since they were always in contention and up to standard in mosts view.
So why weren’t enough black players brought through and favourited by them and supported and pushed through to SA A’s and Emerging Springboks in this time period???
Is it because Peter Jooste and Pieter de Villiers are coloureds and giving preference to their “ethinicity”.
I think this is very unfair and is another example where “black” players have been done in/over-looked because of a bigotted few that aren’t representatively selecting in anyway. Of course the teams should be selected on merit to gain respect/money/status/chances at further development etc. , and currently we don’t even have “non-white” players in every position at Super14 level- let alone trying to force them into the national team on demographics.
9 Jun 2010, 18:09 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-212:
There are more. Can anyone expand the list I’ve given?
9 Jun 2010, 18:09 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-211: I haven’t read a You or a People since 6th grade
perhaps, but it does provide some rugby info
9 Jun 2010, 18:10 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-212:
Bear in mind, this is within the last 2 years…
9 Jun 2010, 18:13 pm
@SpringbokSarah(SpringbokSarah)-214:
Women like you are few and far between…
Please marry into rugby one day!!!
9 Jun 2010, 18:16 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-216: I’m hardly a woman, I’m a little girl
ha ha well I don’t really plan on getting married at all
9 Jun 2010, 18:18 pm
@SpringbokSarah(SpringbokSarah)-217:
Well at least I got the *** right I usually suck at this, and if you do not plan on getting married then even that is all good (I am not a fan of the institution either) just promise you will associate yourself with it in future!!!
9 Jun 2010, 18:19 pm
*** = s e x
9 Jun 2010, 18:20 pm
@SpringbokSarah(SpringbokSarah)-217:
Gonna become a nun?
9 Jun 2010, 18:20 pm
And ‘it’ being rugby of course that you need to associate yourself with…
9 Jun 2010, 18:20 pm
The one thing I have noticed with black and white players development is that black players(especially forwards) at high school level are quite big and strong compared to white guys (obviously there are exceptions), they seem to reach their physical maturity earlier than white guys do.
The black dudes seem to stagnate after leaving school from a physical perspective, where the white dude appears to reach his physical prowress at a later stage………ie they continue get bigger and stronger after school/university and seem to physically mature at about 23/24, Nic Koster is a good example, he is still in the process of maturing and a ideal position for his physical attributes has yet to be confirmed, although I am happy to see they have decided on no.8 for him.
The black counterpart at school level who is bigger and stronger does not appear to genetically get as big and strong after school/university (again there is obviously exceptions) as the white dudes, I think this is a major contributing factor as to why so many promising black players get lost in the system after under 21 level.
I am not sure if there is any scientific proof to back this up but to me it is pretty obvious.
9 Jun 2010, 18:21 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-218: lol why do you know a guy called Sarah?
With rugby? Ja for sure. Either with sports journalism, law or at grassroots level.
9 Jun 2010, 18:22 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-220: why on earth would I do that? You do get independent women who don’t feel the need to get married
9 Jun 2010, 18:24 pm
@justrugby(justrugby)-222:
“The one thing I have noticed with black and white players development is that black players(especially forwards) at high school level are quite big and strong compared to white guys (obviously there are exceptions), they seem to reach their physical maturity earlier than white guys do.”
I would disagree with you. Go play out back on the platteland and come back and tell me the same.
Obviously you haven’t been around much.
And yes there is nio “scientific” evidence, becuase this is aBullshit line of reasoning.
9 Jun 2010, 18:24 pm
@SpringbokSarah(SpringbokSarah)-224:
Just pulling your leg.
9 Jun 2010, 18:26 pm
@SpringbokSarah(SpringbokSarah)-223:
I have traveled to some weird places in my time…
9 Jun 2010, 18:27 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-227: roflmao shame poor him then
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-226:
9 Jun 2010, 18:28 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-225:
Go look at any of the school clashes they show on TV, plenty of big and strong and talented black players in most of the sides, what happens to them afterwards then ?? you appear to have the answers !!!
9 Jun 2010, 18:30 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-225:
As far as scientific evidence goes my conversations with Tac will suggest I strongly agree with you.
My opinion is that emerging (or in context black talent) is simply not managed effectively.
Social orientation and coaching being, and having always been a big criticism of me.
Luckily, the new generation of players are dismissing this obstacle with flying colours.
9 Jun 2010, 18:31 pm
@SpringbokSarah(SpringbokSarah)-228:
All I can say is be careful when you visit the East…
9 Jun 2010, 18:32 pm
@justrugby(justrugby)-229:
Simple answer?
Management.
Best case study.
Solly T.
9 Jun 2010, 18:34 pm
@justrugby(justrugby)-229:
I don’t have to go look at school matches on TV when I actually physically go to them. SouthERN african blacks are small compared to “Dutchies”.
Do you know who statistically speaking the “tallest” nation on earth is…?
You guessed it, theDutch.
Blacks and whites are the same in their growth and don’t get some magical growth-spurt after school. Go look at the SA u/19 these boys are school-level. And by the way won’t mean anything in the way of representing a study group. You insinuations areBullshit.
9 Jun 2010, 18:35 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-231: ja dude… the amount of proposals you get is ridiculous and the stalkers you get are even worse
9 Jun 2010, 18:36 pm
& with the race card being played I am out… cheers peeps
9 Jun 2010, 18:36 pm
@justrugby(justrugby)-229:
Also…just by the way “JUSTrugby”, how do you know youth blacks are “stronger” as you put it? Just by watching matches on TV?
9 Jun 2010, 18:37 pm
@SpringbokSarah(SpringbokSarah)-235:
Nobody played the race card if you followed carefully.
9 Jun 2010, 18:40 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-230:
My question is why WP’s and why so many coloureds all of a sudden? Is it because of the reasons I mention (or speculate) in the post?
All of a sudden those in the list, and their are some I forget, within 2 years?! Why?
Is it because coloured play more rugby, so that there is a greater pool to select from?
I thought that this is exactly the reasoning that they go against in making these “non-white” selections in the first place.
9 Jun 2010, 18:46 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-230:
You can take a player from any “ethnicity” on Earth and raise him in a rugby-culture, so that he can be taught the ball-skills and tecniques of good rugby, and raise that kid to be a top international player…THAT IS IF he has the physical “talent” (in other words genes). But genes aren’t limited to the “races” here in question. Even if you only find 10% big forwards in “race” A and 30% in “race” B.
Doesn’t matter at all.
9 Jun 2010, 18:53 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-239:
I believe genes plays a huge role !!
9 Jun 2010, 18:56 pm
What this about jeans?
I’m lucky, i have many jean pants
White ones, black ones, brown ones, all colours
Call it my rainbow collection
9 Jun 2010, 18:56 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-238:
Dude I had to go re-read your post and in all honesty it still did not make sense to me.
You are arguing a numbers game, and numbers are only important for statisticians and politicians, not rugby people.
Rugby, like any sport is a culture.
The love for the game is not supported out of statistics or benchmarks, but as an affiliation you have with the sport as either a player, supporter or coach.
This is largely why in my view we got the whole ‘transformation’ policies in rugby wrong, because we base our perceptions and facts from numbers and either argue for it, or against it.
Like with most things in life a natural selection will take place, and yes in the case of South Africa social circumstances does play a massive role in that because natural selection was previously affected by policies like Apartheid and is now affected by policies like affirmative action.
Both policies try to cosmetically change situations, and when you get into that game you will fail.
I think the lesson rugby lovers and supporters need to learn is that the cosmetics applied in rugby comes from those not involved in the sport in a playing or coaching capacity, meaning that it is wrong to judge players and coaches and label them as quota’s or BEE’s.
They are there by choice of associations – a love or affinity for the sport.
Do not get caught up in political games and numbers when looking at rugby, because you will not get the answers.
Rather pray that one day our game will be run, and assessed by people who actually has a love and affinity for the game of rugby union.
9 Jun 2010, 18:59 pm
@heita(heita)-241:
9 Jun 2010, 19:00 pm
@justrugby(justrugby)-240:
You didn’t quite understand. There are only a handful of players required in a training group setup. Any “race” can therefore provide the numbers. Regardless of genes in reference to the last part of my post 239.
Anyway, having a look at the longon shots of the U/19 national lineup, would you seriously say that the biggest are “non-whites”. And even then the point is; of course, these 4 or 5 players were chosen and THEY themselves are big, and the their selection was partly because they themselves are big.
But does it tell you anything about the rest of black players? Does it tell you anything about them IN RELEATION to the white players? No it doesn’t.
Genes play a role in everyday life…but no role in your argument.
9 Jun 2010, 19:05 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-239:
Association with anything in life, is a choice – when it becomes a rule or law, you will fail.
In rugby, the association and affinity to the game from personal experience is luckily still a choice people make – whether they be white, black or purple – the all love the game, and that is all that is needed.
Once we accept that, discussions like these will become insignificant.
Thing is my man, we are deliberately forced (or brainwashed) to choose and allegiance, we are kept apart through and made to choose sides through physical differences or cultures.
In the end, rugby is used as a tool to divide, whereas if we actually use the power of the game itself, and let go of cosmetic or grain-fed differences which has nothing to do with the actual game, the game, and the people who love it will look beyond colour and culture.
I use the example of the current soccer world cup in our country – I have no affinity or love for the sport, hence the moment of this event, is insignificant to me – now or what it holds for the future of this country.
My affinity is not with what surrounds the game (in the case of the SWC what it means to our country) but with the game itself, and that means nothing to me, which in turn leaves me not ‘feeling it’ as the add campaigns go.
Rugby similarly, to rugby lovers as I am, should only be about the game, not the cosmetic bullshit that comes with it.
9 Jun 2010, 19:07 pm
Anycase I am out of here for a bit, wasn’t planning on getting that heavy tonight!!!
Later.
9 Jun 2010, 19:08 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-242:
-Firstly, do you mean in regards to my post no.212?
It is a stand-alone point that I made and not part of any argument with “JUSTrugby”.
-Secondly, with all due respect (humbly), I think that you misunderstand the concept of “natural selection”.
Anyway, I agree with your post 242. I don’t believe in “races”, there is only one race- the Human Race.
But my post 212 is there to insinuate that because the selectors are coloureds and WP men, we now see an “overflow” of coloured and WP players against the philosophies that they profess to stand for and select by.
9 Jun 2010, 19:17 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-247:
No I understood your post perfectly (I believe) as I think I have a decent understanding of natural selection as explained in your belief or perception in what is currently happening with PDV and Jooste ‘looking after their own’ so to speak.
I just do not agree with it.
9 Jun 2010, 19:18 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-247:
Not an argument rather an interesting debate !!
But Pissant is right maybe to heavy a debate for tonight……going to watch Eng vs Ireland Junior rugby ………the English, NZ and French seem a lot bigger than our Saffa’s at this level……..again I believe the Dutchies mature fully and continue growing after school level !!! That’s why the Boks size wise stand back for no nation !!
9 Jun 2010, 19:24 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-248:
@justrugby(justrugby)-249:
Maybe it’s the green of their jerseys that make them seemingly blend into the baackground pitch that make them seem small to you.
9 Jun 2010, 19:27 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-250:
LOL !!
9 Jun 2010, 19:28 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-248:
I wasn’t meaning to refer to anykind of natural selection, unless I in turn misunderstood you, and what you meant by PdV and Jooste benefitting their “own”.
But I didn’t what to bring in a “heavy debate” over genes and player sizes and black vs white or even development for that matter…Just consider the post 212 alone then.
Talking a bit past eachother here
An Englishman, aDuthman, and a Xhosa, “debating” race, politics, rugby and religion on a free blog 
9 Jun 2010, 19:31 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-252:
No probs, will have to read it again though just not now… Going to watch the juniors play rugby.
9 Jun 2010, 19:31 pm
@justrugby(justrugby)-251:
Are we perhaps getting smaller altogether as a nation? Maybe we’re only now beginning to see the harmful effects of South Africas poorly managed mine effluent and the 1980′s Apartheid off-shore nuclear bomb testing???
Bye bye William Webb Ellis 2019.
9 Jun 2010, 19:31 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-252:
Priceless !!
9 Jun 2010, 19:33 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-252:
aDuthman = aDutchman ….sorry, my lisp.
9 Jun 2010, 19:35 pm
@justrugby(justrugby)-255:
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-253:
Ok I’m out too, but I want some views still. Will be back tomorrow to inadvertently sink the blog.
9 Jun 2010, 20:05 pm
Great headline on news24.
“Semenya to finally reveal all.”
Going about it in his own merry way, PdV will leave behind a nucleus of players behind consisting of:
Beast or Guthro and Bissie in the front row;
Bekker at lock
SB or Brussow at flank
Spies at no.8
MS at FH;
JPP at wing
Zane at FB. (for the Frans Steyn disciples, he can come into consideration when he returns in 2012)
He is currently bringing JdJ through at centre. (WO will not be there in 2015. He may even not be there in 2011 depending on his performances, or lack thereof, in the Bok team this year). The only real problem we have
I would say that the next coach will have something to work with towards 2015.
9 Jun 2010, 20:07 pm
c@$ter $emeny@ is back, she’ll be running again as a “her”. Those other chicks are in trouble…
9 Jun 2010, 21:02 pm
Sorry Keo but you live in S.A do you really know all about NZ rugby I don’t think so, what a load of utter tripe!!! NZ rugby has not suffered because of overseas player drain, it is suffering because other sports are now of more interest to our young players, league, and now even more so soccer, and the fact the other rugby playing nations have caught up to NZ’s standard, ok there are a few going overseas, but thats been like that for the past 6yrs, being involved in top flight rugby for many many years I find it remarkable that a jappie can make a comment like that when you have nothing to do with the admin of NZ Rugby!!!!
9 Jun 2010, 21:36 pm
@Taniwha(CHAZ)-260:
Keo is japanese?!? I thought those eyes were a little squinty. Maybe that explains why he’s short too. And why he speaks in short choppy sentences…
9 Jun 2010, 22:34 pm
@sglazer(sglazer)-25: How about Aplon being able to cover fullback (very well in fact) and nobody expecting Zane to have any problems.
How about grwing depth in teh Bok squad at fullback (we know what we have in Frans) before teh RWC?
How about grwoing depth at centre and getting them up to spec experience wise?
There is NOTHING wrong with Chilliboys play either. He is a damn fine hooker. Pdv has been consistently grooming him for future bok capatain, and nothing has changed. He has been thrid chouce hooker at bulls because of injuries only.
9 Jun 2010, 23:08 pm
Entirely sure that this tone looks no good on you, Keo.
9 Jun 2010, 23:55 pm
Anyway, I’m done. The blatant pandering to the verktamptes has to see me gone.
Good luck. You used to be a journalist. What are you now?
10 Jun 2010, 06:37 am
#258 Nama; no more Beast bru.
10 Jun 2010, 08:46 am
@husky(husky)-265:
He’s been living in SA for a while now. All he needs to do is apply for citizenship and he would be eligible to play for the Boks again.
10 Jun 2010, 09:25 am
balanced view keo
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