Gunning for greatness
22 Jun 2010
Pierre Spies has become one of the world’s elite No 8s. And he will get even better.
Here’s a thought to consider: Pierre Spies is into his fifth year as a professional at No 8. When you trace his progress since he reluctantly relinquished his ambition of becoming a Springbok wing in 2005, you begin to understand the magnitude of what he has achieved.
If he were to garner a passing mention in comparison to the world’s elite No 8s – France’s superlative Imanol Harinordoquy, the Italian colossus Sergio Parisse and Ireland’s gifted Jamie Heaslip (Harinordoquy at 30, and Parisse and Heaslip at 26, are six and two years his seniors respectively) – he would have achieved much. Likewise, if he were to be spoken of as having similar promise to some emerging eights like Springbok team-mate Ryan Kankowski, the robust Duane Vermeulen from the Stormers or the Brumbies’ excellent Stephen Hoiles.
However, Spies doesn’t simply stack up well. The fact that he’s widely regarded to be better than Kankowski, Vermeulen and Hoiles, and that a similarly strong argument can be made in the debate of whether he trumps Harinordoquy, Parisse and Heaslip – all of whom have spent the majority of their amateur and professional career in the position – bears testament to the phenomenon that Spies is. That he isn’t an imposter in their company speaks of his adaptability, unrelenting work ethic, mental strength and ability to learn. That he could be the finest of the lot, although such assertions are rarely absolute, is a salute to him and his coaches.
According to those who have worked closely with him, he will get better. A lot better.
‘The new breakdown law interpretations have allowed the attacking side to carry the ball through a lot more phases than they were able to previously, and this has amplified Pierre’s strengths because there’s often space and time for him to work with in the wider channels after five or six phases,’ Spies’s mentor and Bulls director of rugby, Heyneke Meyer, explains. ‘He’s a threat with ball in hand normally, but when he’s running at a depleted defensive line, he’s formidable. The less numbers you are able to post on him the greater the chance he’s going to hurt you. If he’s utilised intelligently by the Springboks, and there’s no reason to believe he won’t be, he could be the difference between winning and losing a Test.’
Eddie Jones, former consultant to the 2007 Springbok World Cup-winning team and successful Wallabies coach, offers his insight.
‘The breakdown law interpretations will see him become the pre-eminent No 8 in world rugby, simply because he’s light years ahead of any of the competition in terms of sheer athleticism and physicality. Who matches his pace? Nobody, not even Kankowski, who has some appreciable toe. Who matches his upper-body strength and leg drive? Same answer. He doesn’t have an equal as an eight in terms of the sustainability of his contribution at the highest level because none are as fit.
‘He needs to make minor technical improvements and he could be making better decisions. I’d also like to see him develop a short pass before contact because that would give him an unpredictable edge – will he pass, will he run? – but he’s a relative kid who’ll develop those skills in time.’
Bulls technical analyst and forwards coach Johann van Graan has worked with Spies since he was a Standard 9 (Grade 11) pupil at Affies and knows his game intimately. He points out areas Meyer and Jones have omitted.
‘Certainly the fact that there are now longer phases allows running No 8s like Pierre to get multiple carries in one possession, but his potency is amplified by the fact that players are now commanded to freeze their kick-chase if they are in front of the kicker, whereas before that area wasn’t policed as strictly,’ he explains. ‘Now Pierre has more space and time to assess his options, and when he runs he’s always a line-breaking threat, or at the very least commits two defenders which then creates gaps in the defensive line.
‘His high-ball catching has also developed immensely in the past year or so and his work from the base of the scrum now rivals that of Hoiles and Harinordoquy, who are two of the best in that department. He won’t stand still or regress because his work ethic is unrelenting and he can’t stand mediocrity. He’ll be one of the greats of the game.’
Spies has learnt to treat the dual imposters – adulation and criticism – with equal contempt. He knows the truth lies somewhere in between. That said, his self-belief is unwavering. ‘I believe that when I play to my potential I’m the best in the world,’ he says.
I prompted the response by revisiting the very same assertion he made prior to the British & Irish Lions tour in 2009. The British media fed on the quote like a pack of famished hyenas, their appraisal of the assertion ranging from ‘arrogant’ (The Times of London) to ‘downright deluded’ (The Independent).
‘I don’t think the media and public know what they want you to be sometimes – humble [read: self-effacing] or supremely confident,’ he counters. ‘I don’t think I lack humility and neither am I apologetic about my own estimation of my standing in the game. I believe I have something special because I’m unlike most No 8s in terms of my pace, and my experience as a backline player gives me a more holistic understanding of how best to link with them and about attacking lines in the backline.
‘I don’t tell everyone who will listen how good I am, and I know there are areas of my game that need to improve.’
‘Like what?’ I interject, before offering a personally held belief that with his immense upper-body strength he should be more dominant at the tackle point on defence.
‘I agree with that and it’s something that I’ve been working on,’ he says. ‘I’m not a player who smashes okes 5m backwards in the tackle, but I realise I should be harnessing my strength better in contact. That’s just one example of many, like getting a lower body position in some contact situations in attack or working more effectively with Fourie [du Preez, the Bulls and Springbok scrumhalf].
‘But there are no No 8s with a complete game. If you analyse them closely they all have shortcomings. The best ones make those shortcomings less apparent by maximising their strengths.’
The one enduring criticism of Spies is that his threat is significantly diminished when required to mix it in the tight loose.
‘Rubbish,’ says Van Graan. ‘That argument was valid early in his career but people who still peddle that argument don’t know the facts.
‘Statistically he compares favourably with Hoiles, who’s one of the best at controlling the ball and playing from the base of the scrum, or with Vermeulen, who’s defensively superb in the tight loose and a powerful counter-rucker. His work rate and effectiveness in the tight loose can no longer be questioned. He carries the ball 10-13 times per match, many of those close to the ruck, and gets over the advantage line 80% of the time; he’s consistently among the best at the Bulls in terms of tackle count and the accuracy of those tackles, as he is in the rucking stats. He has also become a banker at the lineout, which is invaluable if your primary jumpers are under pressure. Maybe we should bury that argument.’
However, while he may have made strides in dispelling long-held perceptions about his aptitude for close combat, his primary value to the Springboks will be when tactical engineering creates opportunities for him to be pitted against the backs he dwarfs.
Doing so with the consistency that separates good Test players from the great ones will be his challenge.
‘In 2009 it felt like my game kicked up a gear to the point where I was a lot more influential than I had been previously,’ Spies explains. ‘The very best players are able to replicate those types of performances regularly.
‘Consistency is crucial because I realise now that if I fire, the Boks do well. As a rookie I was pretty carefree and just had a jol, but now I have a greater appreciation of my role and what my contribution should be.’
Meyer adds: ‘He’s more tactically astute now and is also able to rebound from bad starts in a way he wasn’t able to in the past. That comes with maturity and improved emotional intelligence in the sense that he realises that one mistake doesn’t make him a bad player and that it shouldn’t dictate his mood and, as a result, his performance.
‘That all bodes well for the Springboks because he’s making massive steps year-on-year. If he continues to progress like he has, questions about who the best in the world is will be futile.’
By Ryan Vrede
– This article first appeared in the June issue of SA Rugby magazine
87 Comments
22 Jun 2010, 10:19 am
Jones summed it up.
He needs a greater appreciation for the role of an 8 and with that better decision making will come.
He is a brilliant athlete, but he now needs to become a brilliant 8.
22 Jun 2010, 10:25 am
Pierre make crib notes from old Zinzan tapes.
22 Jun 2010, 10:31 am
Good player. Very good player.
But every time he streaks thru in the clear with his admittedly great pace, he somehow becomes “a great player”.
Still havent seen him bully a game like a Zinzan, a Teich, a Dallaglio, a Kefu.
Wheres the bump’n'grind ? Where’s the soft hands releasing his flankers ? Wheres the 3 consecutive spot tackles on the line to save match-turning tries ?
Far too early to judge Spies as a no8. He remains a highly-promising athlete playing damn good rugby; no more than that.
22 Jun 2010, 10:31 am
Ouboet – bly nederig!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
22 Jun 2010, 10:35 am
He is still a bit shaky at the back of the scrum, especially when the scrum is going backwards. And with our props he will need to work on this skill.
22 Jun 2010, 10:38 am
Great athlete I agree , awesome going forward and would rather have him in my team than against me but he cannot defend so lekka , with so one with such strong upper body strength I am surprise how the Italians brushed his off. His only weakness and fortunately something that can be worked on. For me he is much like Bob Skinstad in his prime , awesome on attack , not that great on defense , Still I would put his name down first with Morne Steyn (and I am a die hard WP supporter)
22 Jun 2010, 10:40 am
Oh and one more thing , can the magazine guys do a different cover for a change ? Someone other than Spies or Fourie ? How about a article on De Joung or evens Hurdles ? One of the up and coming stars ?
22 Jun 2010, 10:40 am
Look I’m a big Spies fan and all, but how many of these rehashed articles are we going to see?
Didn’t we see this exact article in the last SA rugby?
My take on Spies:
He is the greatest athlete the game has seen.
He is the fastest no.8 the game has seen.
He is one of the most powerful no.8′s the game has seen.
He does NOT have the greatest hands.
And in order to be such a great athlete, his build does not lend itself to him being the most effective tackler, as he struggles to get a low enough centre of gravity to take guys down effectively at the first go, especially if they wrongfoot him.
He is not the ball player that the oh-so-revered Zinzan Brooke was.
But as a whole, I would take him over any other no.8 anyday.
His strong points make his weak points worthwhile in my view. And his weakpoints are slowly being addressed.
He will never be a Quade Cooper with ball in hand, but I’m quite happy with that. Zinzan Brooke was never a Pierre Spies when running at the defensive line. There is no one that comes close in that respect.
22 Jun 2010, 10:44 am
I did hear that he dropped a goal in practice the other day so maybe he will show us more in future , how cool would it be that he drops a goal against the abs ?
22 Jun 2010, 10:47 am
@Black Panther(Black Panther)-3: Kefu? Bwahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. You just showed your hand.
22 Jun 2010, 10:51 am
And every time he gets a suck like this article, it will take him longer to get to just-above-average in actual fact.
Come on with the stats, let us see.
And in which games did he dominate his opposite number to the effect that it made a difference?
And as part of loosie combination – the crucial question actually?
He can do things that look spectacular, but against whom and in which sort of situations, and to what actual value for his side in the match situation – he has a long way to go to deserve this sort of worshipping (Pun intended.
I hope he does, but then he should not read these articles.
22 Jun 2010, 10:58 am
@Black Panther(Black Panther)-3:
Bump ‘n grind? From Pierre?
Rude!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(PS: O vok he got his foot on a soccer ball!)
22 Jun 2010, 11:04 am
pierre spies is overrated imo.
22 Jun 2010, 11:09 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-8:
Thats a excellent assesment on Spies.
22 Jun 2010, 11:12 am
@Black Panther(Black Panther)-3: How the fck did Kefu sneak onto that list of great eights? Or are you just checking that we’re awake?
22 Jun 2010, 11:13 am
@rangerman(rangerman)-13:
THAT is an excellent assessment of Spies.
22 Jun 2010, 11:16 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-8:
Problem I have with that is that Pierre’s play will only suit a certain type of team or game plan which compliments his strengths as an athlete more than a number 8.
For now it is working because we build around him and his ability.
A more tactical and technical astute 8th man fits into any team.
That is why I would like to see him work on his technical abilities for the position.
22 Jun 2010, 11:23 am
Being a Slummies man, I am surprised that ol Tac is chosing to blog and is not down at the Bok training ground in salivatating at the legendary Pierre live in action
22 Jun 2010, 11:24 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-17: omg Morne how can you suggest Spies is not perfect and has short commings , sacralidge i tell ya
Taccy will never forgive you now
22 Jun 2010, 11:28 am
@sharks_lover(sharks_lover)-19: See post 8. Tac admitted Spies has shortcomings.
22 Jun 2010, 11:29 am
Spies reminds me a bit of the Welsh 12, Roberts. Both of them are big and fast yet Roberts needed BOD to bring the best out of him with his running lines both on and off the ball. Roberts hasn’t had the same impact for Wales since the B&IL tour, injuries apart. Both Spies and Roberts are devastating in space but both need someone to create that space for them. Spies is a taker of chances not a maker, which is why I feel that at 8 he’s not the best choice. Pottie creates space and knows when to release the ball, which is why I’d go for him, with Spies at 7 or off the bench as an impact player.
22 Jun 2010, 11:30 am
@David(David)-21:
I have long stopped saying Spies and Kanko will be more effective 7′s.
22 Jun 2010, 11:33 am
My comments after the Italy game:
Spies must be the most overrated player in sa. If he’s such an “athlete” then he must go to the olympics. I pray we have a combo of brussouw, burger and smith at the world cup
22 Jun 2010, 11:37 am
Spies is a poor mans Vermeulen.
22 Jun 2010, 11:40 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-22:
Yes, I know. For me, the vital point strangely enough, is that they both score a lot of tries. Which tells me that they’re not doing the primary work of an eigth man.
22 Jun 2010, 11:43 am
as far as tac saying spies is “the greatest athlete the game has ever seen” i find this hard to agree with.
he has brute power and speed in spades but his ball skills (surely a vital part of his “athletic” prowess?) are very poor and i just dont think he is an effective link man who can put others into space.
his work at ruck time is not poor, it is dismal.
kanko is far more athletic if all-round rugby skills are taken into account and his lack of physicality is a large part myth as evidenced by his bulked up frame this season.
as PA says, our game has been built around using spies as a strike runner/ball carrier where he takes impact sucking in defenders and then we go through phases trying to utilise the gap he has created.
smart teams defend against this quite well.
he has a long way to go before he justifies the hype imo.
22 Jun 2010, 11:46 am
its simple really … if your a Sharks fan. then you support Kanko … Province = vermeulen … bulls = spies. All i know is that spies had a great super 14 … he gave the Bulls the “go forward” in the semi’s vs Crusaders …strong runner of the ball at pace … best nr 8 in world rugby, by a mile!
22 Jun 2010, 11:58 am
Spies whikle a large chunk of ******** hasn’t even began to reach his potential, we see very little of a classic eight, he runs into people seeking contact, very rarely links with anyone and just holds the oppostion up. Far better eights in the world.
If he started working on becoming a better player – he might actually go onto be a legend, not another hulking South African who didn’t reach his potential and relied on his size.
22 Jun 2010, 11:59 am
with the help of performance adhancing drugs yes!!
22 Jun 2010, 11:59 am
Spies has great potential, but a great no 8 has a presence on the field. Morne Du Plessis, Gary Teichmann and even Jannie Breedt. The flyhalf kicks a ball and the 8 is there to collect it – the flyhalf passes the ball and the 8 is there to take the wing out on the corner flag – the flyhalf runs and the 8 is there to tackle the living daylights out of him.
Anton Leonard was the last such no 8 that I had the privilege to see. Spies has to work on his positional play. The progress he has made over the last five years in the position is remarkable, though. I am sure he will get there within the next season or two. Rassie better get his cheque book out
22 Jun 2010, 12:01 pm
@wpw(wpw)-29:
I think you need the help of spelling enhancing drugs.
22 Jun 2010, 12:04 pm
@Black Panther(Black Panther)-3: yes, spies is still an apprentice, he got outclassed by parisse just last weekend…
22 Jun 2010, 12:05 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-22: I have also stopped saying it, but I am thinking it a lot. Spies will be far better in a role of blindside flank where he can play with less structure and much more towards the ball.
Kanko, on the other hand, has all the skills needed to be a classic no 8. I think his rugby is suffering because of his presence in the Bok touring squad without being given opportunities to play. He must play a full season for him to hone his skills.
I must say, in conclusion, that we are truly blessed in SA with the stacks of world class loose forwards at our disposal.
22 Jun 2010, 12:05 pm
@John Galt(John Galt)-31:
hehehe
‘enhancing’
22 Jun 2010, 12:05 pm
LOL @ 31. JOHN
22 Jun 2010, 12:05 pm
@wpw(wpw)-29: ridiculous
22 Jun 2010, 12:06 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-32: Parisse was nowhere in that game, as was Spies. We can be glad Imanol did not play because he is a different kettle of fish.
22 Jun 2010, 12:07 pm
@GI POT(GI POT)-33: kanko is being done a dirty imo.
he had a great start to the s14 until he got injured.
he came back even better.
but he has had how much gametime since then?
22 Jun 2010, 12:10 pm
@GI POT(GI POT)-37: Huh?
parisse was AWESOME.
for the italians.
imanol plays for the frogs (aka cheese eating surrender munkeys aka bafanas b i t ch es).
22 Jun 2010, 12:14 pm
@rangerman(rangerman)-38:
Was the same last year as well.
Warmed the bench for so long that when he did eventually get some game time, he was undercooked and played behind a sub par pack. Then everyone comes out and says he is average.
Had a great S14, has packed on bulk and is a great athlete.
Geev heem anuda shance!!
How you Ranger, get any bugs recently?
22 Jun 2010, 12:15 pm
Well, the Bulls seem to do remarkably well for a team with:
A useless fullback,
A wing that is actually a scrumhalf,
Another wing that is still a “manchild”, can’t tackle and whose pace is overrated,
An inside centre who is the most overrated player in SA,
A kicking flyhalf who cannot get his backline away and has little creativity,
A no.8 who has almost no skill and shouldn’t even be playing eigthman,
A flank who is too small and another flank who is too ill disciplined,
Props who can’t scrum and a hooker who apparently couldn’t cut it in the northern hemisphere and who isn’t one of the top 4 hookers in the country, according to the national selectors.
Given all of the above, it seems Fourie du Preez, Victor and Bakkies won the S14 all on their own. 3 times.
And to think Bakkies was injured for 90% of the 2010 campaign.
Victor and du Preez must be damn good players.
22 Jun 2010, 12:15 pm
@rangerman(rangerman)-39: Ah damn, wrong team, my bad. I did not see the Italy game because I refused to watch if Butch played. I won some money because I predicted a yellow card for him.
Sorry Transie – Parisse was awesome. Thanks for the correction Ranger
22 Jun 2010, 12:17 pm
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-41: Just shows you how kuk the rest of the teams were:lol:
22 Jun 2010, 12:17 pm
And as for how other countries rate our players?
It is worth noting that the only three SA players the new French flank had even heard of before the Cape Town game, was Habana, Pierre Spies and Ronald Red Card Mcdonald on the flank.
22 Jun 2010, 12:23 pm
In contrast, the Stormers have:
The most deserved Bok fullback in Joe Pietersen,
The two incumbant Bok wings,
The most recommended Bok centre pairing,
A flyhalf that was done an injustice for not being in the Bok squad,
The incumbant Bok no.9,
An eigthman who was done an injustice for not being in the Bok squad,
The two incumbant Bok flanks,
The apparent best no.5 lock in South Africa,
A front row that should all be playing for the Boks in a few years time.
And yet they have zero S14 titles to their name.
How DOES this game of rugby work?
22 Jun 2010, 12:30 pm
@John Galt(John Galt)-40: howdy man!
no bugs in a while.
but this weekend i hope to do some diving.
ja, kanko needs a bit more gametime foreshore.
@GI POT(GI POT)-42: no worries.
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-41: tac, cmon now.
spies is a very good player. he is not however the greatest anything yet.
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-45:
uh oh. its on like donkey kong.
22 Jun 2010, 12:30 pm
If Spies has iffy hands, Kanko must have two bags of runny **** at the ends of his arms. He spills more than BP.
22 Jun 2010, 12:32 pm
@GI POT(GI POT)-42: hehehehe noted, you didn’t see the italy game but are quick to refute
22 Jun 2010, 12:33 pm
Pierre Spies is over rated as an eighth man. He is a great athlete but that’s that. When last have anyone actually seen him cover half the ground that he is suppose to. He is spoiled at the bulls and boks to have FDP because he covers ground and kicks so well.
22 Jun 2010, 12:34 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-48: Only because I trust your judgment and I saw Parisse score a great try on the highlights
22 Jun 2010, 12:35 pm
The England team visited an orphanage in Cape Town earlier today.
“It’s heartbreaking to see their sad little faces with no hope,” said Bongani, aged 6.
22 Jun 2010, 12:36 pm
John Smit is back at hooker and captain for Saturday’s test.
22 Jun 2010, 12:37 pm
@Staal(Staal)-51: Eish.
22 Jun 2010, 12:37 pm
“In tight games your Spies disappear”
Ancient Chinese Proverb
22 Jun 2010, 12:38 pm
@Staal(Staal)-51: BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!
all my mates at the office are in tears
22 Jun 2010, 12:42 pm
staal …. make that bafana bafana and bob is your uncle
22 Jun 2010, 12:43 pm
If Peer Spear can learn to protect the ball better (in contact and when gathering at the back of the scrum) and pick up some Skinstad-esque offload skills, he’ll be the best there is.
22 Jun 2010, 12:43 pm
15 Gio Aplon (Vodacom Stormers) – 3 caps
14 Jean de Villiers (Vodacom Western Province) – 57 caps
13 Jaque Fourie (Vodacom Stormers) – 56 caps
12 Juan de Jongh (Vodacom Stormers) – 3 caps
11 Bryan Habana (Vodacom Stormers) – 59 caps
10 Morné Steyn (Vodacom Bulls) – 14 caps
9 Ricky Januarie (Vodacom Stormers) – 43 caps
8 Pierre Spies (Vodacom Bulls) – 30 caps
7 Francois Louw (Vodacom Stormers) – 3 caps
6 Schalk Burger (Vodacom Stormers) – 56 caps
5 Andries Bekker (Vodacom Stormers) – 21 caps
4 Bakkies Botha (Vodacom Bulls) – 66 caps
3 Jannie du Plessis (Sharks) – 15 caps
2 John Smit (Sharks, captain) – 95 caps
1 Gurthrö Steenkamp (Vodacom Bulls) – 24 caps
Reserves
16 Chiliboy Ralepelle (Vodacom Bulls) – 11 caps
17 BJ Botha (Ulster) – 21 caps
18 Danie Rossouw (Vodacom Bulls) – 48 caps
19 Dewald Potgieter (Vodacom Bulls) – 4 caps
20 Ruan Pienaar (Sharks) – 39 caps
21 Butch James (Bath) – 36 caps
22 Wynand Oliver (Vodacom Bulls) – 28 caps
22 Jun 2010, 12:46 pm
“Given all of the above, it seems Fourie du Preez, Victor and Bakkies won the S14 all on their own. 3 times.”
You overlook the obvious fact that Fourie du Preez is a completely overrated prima donna. (If you wish to dispute this, I refer you to any of Skopskuit’s comments over the course of the last year or so. It is just about the only issue on which he consistently agrees with himself, so it must be true.)
Moreover, you overlook an alternative explanation for why the Bulls won the S14: they had the refs (all of them) in their pocket (in every single game). (Again, see any of Skop’s recent comments for further elaboration.)
22 Jun 2010, 12:48 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-58: Chili’s got 11 yarmulkes.
22 Jun 2010, 12:48 pm
He’s not bad, but he’s no Rudolph Straeuli.
22 Jun 2010, 12:48 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-58: Rest for Steyn, Spies and Habana?
this makes it clear he doesn’t rate another 8 in south africa, and also that we are short on the wings. Also doesn’t no who his ten is, and it sure isn’t James.
22 Jun 2010, 13:05 pm
Pierre spies has never really dont it on the international level.
He kind of reminds me of James haskell very powerful, big, fast but when he plays for England he never seems to do it just like spies.
People these days seem to get bonners over fowards running the 100 metres in 9 seconds.
Its like Tom croft whos is 6ft 6 in England everyone keeps going on about his electric pace (10.3 seconds in 100 metres) rather than his line out skills, tackling, turn overs, etc
22 Jun 2010, 13:14 pm
@WOLFMAN21(WOLFMAN21)-62:
Looks like James is cover for 10 and 12, Ruan for 9 and 10. It makes sense if you think about it, for a WC squad. If FdP or Morne is rested for a pool game or injured, having this sort of cover is vital.
22 Jun 2010, 14:22 pm
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-41:
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-45:
Very well put and contrasted, these two posts. Love it.
(Who’s the “ronald red card mcdonald” you spoke of, Tacitus? The flank that the Young frenchman heard of? Where did you here this?)
Spies is the world’s best. There isn’t an 8th man preferable in the Sh and only Heaslip really compares up NH. Harinordoquy is on his way out, sorry.
And I can’t really understand why many think he is poor come rucktime, he is extremely efficient at cleaning rucks out.
My take:
Spies is skilled in every department. His downfall: IMPATIENCE.
Sometimes he doesn’t display the calmness and nerve- and I don’t mean necessarily under pressure. I think (it seems to me) he puts himself under so much pressure, he wants to to pass the ball when he barely has a hand to it. He wants to do everything double time.
This is an excellent attitude and I’m glad we have a looseforward like this, he needs to calm down, and develop a Nonchalant attitude to what transpires on the field (gonna be difficult to do so and maintain humility- but I think this is a slight weakness with Spies, too busy with PR and being a good guy, I truly seems as though at times he worries about being a gentleman of the game).
What would this be like: Spies’s body and Richie McCaw’s mind?
Devastating? Yes? How so? It’s all in the mind. There’s nothing wrong with Spies’s abilities, he needs to mature that’s all, he’s already the world’s best 8th man, give him a break. Although I also don’t appreciate this “Oh, he needs time, he needs timw, in a couple of years…blah blah blah…”
He can snap himself into gear permanently tomorrow. Good for us, bad for them.
22 Jun 2010, 14:32 pm
@john123(john123)-63:
Fair enough but neither do we need 115-120kg neanderthals-tractorlike loosies like Jacques Cronje/Danie Rossouw/Nick Easter.Game has evolved beyond them,a good athlete in loose fwds is half job done because they operate in tandem thus if combined well-work off each other’s strengths & weaknesses.
BTW the 8thman position has been without a true star since Ron Cribb left the scene.All have been one dimensional or high efficient in non-essential facets in Test rugby.
22 Jun 2010, 14:45 pm
59. Thucydides(Thucydides) :
HAHHAH Classic
22 Jun 2010, 14:51 pm
Provicialism died with apartheid, get over it.
22 Jun 2010, 14:51 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-65: “Ronald McDonald” (think McDonalds, think Burger, think Schalk Burger)…
22 Jun 2010, 14:55 pm
66. mshiniwami(mshiniwami) :
You need a blend of mobile and brutal – and if they both come in the same package then all the better.
Spies is a package. Sometimes he makes basic errors but the guy is irreplacable. My favourite is Spies in the tackle picking players up and driving them backwards – he is also good to watch on the gallop but in test against top teams he won;t have as much oppurtunity to show his attacking strengths as he does his defense.
Also a great lineout option.
22 Jun 2010, 14:56 pm
oh and Kanko in my opinion shouldn’t even come close to a Bok jersey unless we play a team that can’t ruck or tackle.
22 Jun 2010, 15:02 pm
Spies is Springbok material. No question about this. He has everything and will only get better. He will be the best No 8 in world rugby, and among the best who have ever played the game. He’s still young. Look what he’s achieved already.
22 Jun 2010, 15:03 pm
@Partizan(Partizan)-69:
Mmm…nah, I think he was referring to Bulls players. Who could it be?
22 Jun 2010, 15:04 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-70:
Fair enough.
Thats why the HYBRID is the ultimate achievement.Problem is the athletic body-shape is prone to injury especially in loosies.
Ex:characteristics(1.87m-1.94m,105-112kg)
-Joe van Niekerk
-Pierre Spies
-Bok Skinstad
-Ron Cribb
-Imanol Harinodiqouy
-Simon Taylor
-James Haskell
etc
22 Jun 2010, 15:21 pm
What a load of complete and utter horse k*k. 50% of the time Spies loses the ball in contact. How does that fit into the definition of ‘greatness’?
22 Jun 2010, 15:23 pm
Parisse is the best no.8 in the world and has been for a couple of years. Re-watch Saturday’s game to see the difference in class. Spies will get there eventually though
22 Jun 2010, 15:24 pm
@sglazer(sglazer)-72:
Stop using hyperboles
The young man is good,but still has too many deficiencies
Best ever 8′s…Not even close as of yet..Not even close to Toutai kefu…Zinzan Brooke is the benchmark
22 Jun 2010, 16:09 pm
@Oubaas2009(Oubaas2009)-10:
Toutai Kefu
60 Test caps.
On debut was rampant as Wallabies beat England 76-0.
1 x RWC – possibly Wallabies best player throughout the tournament. 1 x RWC RunnerUp medal.
2 x TriN titles.
Countless heartbreaking performances – in NZs eyes – in Bledisloes.
Fantastic player.
There is a rumour that the odd player outside Pretoria knows how to play the game.
22 Jun 2010, 16:14 pm
@katman(katman)-15:
refer above.
He was an awesome no8.
Wasnt including Teich enough for your delicate disposition ?
I dont expect you to show too much respect to any non-Safa tho, Katman. I recall the ‘respect’ you showed to Bill McLaren and it gives me cold-shudders.
22 Jun 2010, 16:19 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-32:
Parrise sure is some player. He would fly in to most top teams, if not all of them.
Big Joe is the best SA no8. Im a big fan, always have been. All the attributes, incl the X-factor gene known as ‘mongrel’. Spies may be built like a thoroughbred but I dont see any mongrel in his eyes. For eg, Zinny and Buck Shelford – I still cant split them as to who is Best AB no8 – both had mongrel in spades.
Spies is still young tho. Zinny didnt really come in to his own until ’94 Bok tour of NZ where he seemed to grow arms and legs. He was King. But it was only ‘promise’ prior to that.
22 Jun 2010, 18:18 pm
He’s not one of the world’s great number 8′s when he still struggles to pick the ball up without knocking it on from the back of the scrum…
22 Jun 2010, 20:05 pm
I feel like they wrote this article just so we could argue about it.
My opinion (not that it matters) is that although Spies is not the most complte 8 in SA he should still be the Bok 8 because of his athleticism. I feel that if we structure our play around him just a little more by find ways to include him in set moves to better utilise his strengths then both the player and the team will benefit. Someone with that amount of pace and strengh is just always going to be difficult to deal with and we should take advantage of that when where in the opposition half.
Yes, he doesn’t tackle briliantly but unless I’m mistaken, and I could be, I don’t remember it ever costing the Boks or Bulls too badly.
And yes, he can be a little anonymous in tight games but what do you expect? He’s a ball carrier! He can’t run it up if we’re always in our own half, always on the back foot or we don’t have the ball for long periods.
23 Jun 2010, 00:57 am
It’s obvious that as a physical specimen he has no equal and as Bash said above they should bring him into set plays more to take advantage of that. However, for pretty much all of his career (Bulls and Boks) he has played on the back of a dominant tight five with arguably the best locking pair in Bok, if not world, rugby history. This has allowed him to play his lose game without really exposing his shortcomings. He is not a natural number 8, he’s had to learn it. That said he will get better because he has a great work ethic and attitude.
My ideal 8 is Vermuelen’s brain in Spies’ body.
Kankowski can’t cut it at Bok level and should be dropped now to groom another 8.
23 Jun 2010, 01:13 am
@WO_owned_De_jongh_in_super14_final(suffer_guy)-27:
Can’t be the best No.8 based on club/provincial rugby, test rugby is the acid test.
@john123(john123)-63: agree, too much focus on pace, it ain’t 7s
@Black Panther(Black Panther)-78: this is like cane saying Owen Finegan was the best 6 in the last decade, good players not great.
23 Jun 2010, 08:39 am
@Big Hit(Big Hit)-84:
I agree with Cane, altho I would have to say “one of”.
The Brick with Eyes was an immense player. Have you forgotten 1999 RWC, esp the Final, and the Brumbies of that era (2 titles) ? Finnegan was the dominant player, let alone no6.
23 Jun 2010, 08:51 am
Pierre Spies is a great player, and he’s proved it time and again for the Bulls/Boks. He possesses the ability to turn a match on its head with his brilliance.
But if I was Bok coach and we were playing a big test match, Duane would be my #8
Though Pierre Spies shines when the game is open and expansive, he often tends to fade away when the going gets tough, resulting in the two flankers having to work a lot harder and not giving them freedom play as they like.
Duane’s tactitcal and positional play is a bit superior to Spies’s. Duane makes a lot more tackles during a game and hits a lot more rucks (on the attack and defense), which is why you hardly see Spies making any turnovers.
23 Jun 2010, 10:59 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-45: I see it didn’t take you long to take a very positive article on one of your idols and turn it into some anti WP rant….as ususal.
I really find it quite amusing how you cloak your anti WP posts in supposed “logic” all based on the fact that the Bulls won the Super 14 and therefore deserve to have practically the whole team in the Springboks, and basically regard any of the other unions as irrelevant when it come to the National set up.
Let me ask you this: When the Crusaders were dominating the Super competition how many of their players were in the All Black run on team??
Work on that and come back to me (yes i’ve researched the answer)
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