The big debate
1 Jul 2010
Has Chiliboy Ralepelle become a political pawn?
YES
Ollie le Roux, former Springbok prop
‘I think it’s a disgrace that Chiliboy was selected for the Springbok Test against Wales, especially when you consider he only played 20 minutes of Super Rugby this season and is the third-choice hooker at the Bulls.
‘There are so many world-class hookers in South Africa at the moment, with John Smit, Bismarck du Plessis [who’s currently injured], Tiaan Liebenberg, Gary Botha, Adriaan Strauss and Bandise Maku all in great form. Chiliboy’s selection is disrespectful to those hookers who deserve a call-up, as well as to the Bok team.
‘It’s sad for Chiliboy because he obviously doesn’t pick himself, yet he’s the one who has to suffer the consequences.
‘Chiliboy was a great player at age-group level and is earmarked to be the next Bok skipper, but this can’t justify his selection for the Cardiff Test. I can’t even remember what he brings to the field because I never see him play. He needs to go to a union where he will be the first-choice hooker and can prove to people that he deserves to be in the Springbok team.’
NO
Robbie Kempson, former Springbok prop
‘Chiliboy’s selection for the Wales Test was criticised because of his lack of game time in the Super 14 but I didn’t have a problem with it. He’s been sidelined for a long time because of injuries, which has seen him drop below Gary Botha and Bandise Maku in the Bulls’ pecking order at hooker. But keeping him in the Bok mix will help with his development as a player and keep him exposed to the team structures.
‘Chiliboy will also learn from the best players in the country and have the guidance of the Bok coaching staff, who can explain exactly what they want from him. That’s the ideal mentoring an up-and-coming player needs.
‘Unfortunately, he will be under fire because people feel he hasn’t proved that he’s worth a Bok call-up. But if he can make a success out of it, he will win the respect of the public.
‘Chiliboy has to remain focused, work hard, and make the most of his opportunities. He’s a good player with plenty of potential, but he has to make the step up.’
– This article first appeared in the July issue of SA Rugby magazine
506 Comments
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1 Jul 2010, 12:00 pm
@David(David)-91: It is a silly choice, but does give some cover for the Chili selection… (Haven’t you heard the ones about “PdV is selecting players from his Age group side who he knows and trusts”).
SARU are at most times a bunch of clowns but there is some strategy going on, a bit obvious though… Force through the one player by letting him ride on the other player as Trojan horse…
1 Jul 2010, 12:01 pm
@Bod(bod)-96:
I understand he’s just franchised his fruit and vegetable shop and is moving up the social ladder.
1 Jul 2010, 12:02 pm
@Porra the Fat Speedster(Porra)-83: What you are getting wrong is to assume that Gary Botha is better than Chilliboy, given a fit Gary Botha and a fit Chilliboy, there is no contest in my mind who is better, and its not Gary.
Based on my opinion, Botha is actually the third choice hooker at the Bulls, so WTF is he being played ahead of a fit Maku and Ralapelle?, is it fair for me and my fellow black brothers to believe that its white afrikaaners looking after each other?
1 Jul 2010, 12:03 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-101:
I never took you for a conspiracy theorist. :LOL:
1 Jul 2010, 12:04 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-100:
botha
and maku
obviously
brought
more than
chilli
to the
s14
so for
any reasonable
and logical
person
they would
bring more
to the
boks
1 Jul 2010, 12:05 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-73: If you say Chilli is not first choice at the Bulls, why is that so?, is it ability?, is it because of injuries?,is it because Afrikaaners are looking after each other, here I’m referring to the pedestrian Botha and a failed flank forward being picked ahead of young explosive black hookers.
1 Jul 2010, 12:06 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-103:
you see
it’s a
race thing
to you
and you
so you can’t be
objective
1 Jul 2010, 12:07 pm
I for 1 like to read these debates and not comment but against better judgement I will…
@Porra the Fat Speedster(Porra)-64:
If I
was
Bulls
Coach then
Chilli
would be
my
first
choice.
It’s called
preference…
not merit…
do not confuse
the two.
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-73:
Discrimination against Chilli by the Bulls management (Choosing a flanker, Kuun, as 1st choice when Chilli was fit & available)
or
Discrimination in favour of Chilli (Being selected to the Boks over Gary, Strauss etc)
Some were amazed at how a flanker (“a favourite”) was preferred over available hookers at the Bulls, but they kept quiet and did not shout “Discrimination”
Some are now amazed at how Chilli gets selected over other “favourites” and they are shouting “Discrimination”…
Take note that I have not used “1st choice” anywhere in my assessment of the situation…
1 Jul 2010, 12:07 pm
@David(David)-91:
Hargreaves wasn’t even chosen (initially) for the Sharks’ S14 tour to NZ and Australia.
I mean Wilhelm Steenkamp (a loaned player from the Bulls) was even selected ahead of him.
Which means he was effectively 4th choice at the Sharks!!
Sykes
Muller
Steenkamp
And yet he still made the Bok squad. No outcry about his selection though! Strange one!!
1 Jul 2010, 12:07 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-98:
Almost spot on.
You need to elaborate the fact that our scrum against France actually went BETTER in the second half. Co-incidental??
Can someone remind me when last we lost a lineout on a Chilliboy throw??
I do recall our hooker turning over two balls in that second half against France…
I have never seen Chilliboy turbo reversed in the loose at international levels unlike a certain Gary Botha was
Whats this debate all about??
1 Jul 2010, 12:08 pm
@theOracle(theOracle)-108:
well
i’m glad
you’re not
bulls coach
then
1 Jul 2010, 12:09 pm
@mamma_lou(mamma_lou)-92:
I agree. PdeV has openly stated that he wants a more representative side, and he’s going about it in a sensible manner, that hasn’t endangered the Boks. Sure, he made some mistaken selections on the EOYT games against 2 club sides, but he admitted he’d made a mistake in his assessment of the players ability to step up a level.
1 Jul 2010, 12:09 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-103:
Uyakhumbula ndisithi kuwe uMxoli should move to hooker coz that’s where his future lies? guess what, Alan Solomons has seen the light and he’ll be playing hooker on Saturday against the bulls
1 Jul 2010, 12:10 pm
@Bod(bod)-110:
I think he lost one against Italy.
1 Jul 2010, 12:10 pm
@Porra the Fat Speedster(Porra)-105:
Well thanks Captain Obvious.
Of course they did, they played there.
My question was quite specific and simple if you care to answer that.
@Bod(bod)-110:
I dont know I lost the punchline.
1 Jul 2010, 12:12 pm
@wpw(wpw)-109:
To be fair, you must differentiate between 4 & 5 lock. I’m not even too sure which one Hargreaves fits into.
1 Jul 2010, 12:13 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-106: Either way it is a race issue. You say he is not the 1st choice at the Bulls cause he isn’t Afrikaans, I say he is only in the bok setup cause he is black.
1 Jul 2010, 12:14 pm
Guthro & Werner looked better in this years Super 14 vs the CC last year … Thanks to G Botha. .. i know Kuun was hooker in the CC, but still … G Botha is yster … 10 times betetr than chilli
1 Jul 2010, 12:14 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-115:
the minute
i posted
i knew
you will
misread
either
intentionally
or not
let me
rephrase
botha
and maku
obviously
brought
more than
chilli
to the
bulls
note bulls
1 Jul 2010, 12:14 pm
@Porra the Fat Speedster(Porra)-107: You say “its other reasons” or “political” , I call it what it is, then suddenly its a race thing to me, because I refuse to call it “other reasons”.
If to you its not a race thing, what are your “other reasons”
1 Jul 2010, 12:16 pm
now i go
to the
undertaker
1 Jul 2010, 12:17 pm
@Porra the Fat Speedster(Porra)-119:
And I said that is obvious – since they played for the Bulls ahead of Chili.
But my question was comparing what Chili brought (at test level) to what Gary or Maku brought (at Super 14 level) in 2010 so far and explaining to me what would either one of them have brought extra to the team Chili has not already given us?
I am not reading what I just want to, you are just answering what you want to.
1 Jul 2010, 12:17 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-120:
obviously
political
reasons
but then
politics
in sa
is all about
race
1 Jul 2010, 12:17 pm
@mxhosa(mxhosa)-113: Yes, ndiyakhumbula.
1 Jul 2010, 12:20 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-122:
hey you
listen good
i wanna go
to the
undertaker
they were
better
than chilli
whole season
so they
logically
would have
brought more
to the
bokke
1 Jul 2010, 12:20 pm
@Ratel Brussow(Morne Steyn is under-rated)-117: Agreed, herein lies the irony, I know its my opinion, I dont dare try and sell it as fact.
1 Jul 2010, 12:21 pm
Bok favourites. Regardless of race these players get more opportunities, because of their junior days.
Hargreaves
Pottgieter
Chilliboy
These are the blue-eyed boys of springbok rugby. They can do no wrong and merit means nothing to these guys.
1 Jul 2010, 12:22 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-98: You’re making an error of omission…
Compare apples with apples and all that… What did Chilli do to be chosen as the no 2. hooker in South Africa in the first instance…? Did he perform better than Botha or Liebenburg in the S14 – supposedly the prime indicator of form for Bok selection… ?
Was it because the Bulls management did not give him the “opportunity” to take his “rightful place” at the top of the pecking order as hooker for the Bulls S14… Was Botha unfairly favored at the Bulls… Was Maku unfairly favoured at the Bulls…
Considering the Stormer flavour of the Boks, it is hugely “unlucky” that Liebenburg was not selected as hooker for the Boks…
It is a wonder that the player market is not clamouring for a player of the “stature” of Chiliboy… Are journo’s not reporting on this, or covering up the huge interest in our Chili, or is it such that Chili is not as highly valued as some other SA hookers… If so, why?
It may be that Chili is falsely valued at this stage by those who have determined he should be in the Bok squad… “you can fool some, some of the time….etc”
Imagine if the Boks and a test match could be used as an experimental incubator for all players out there… Heard the one about if a chimpanzee could live forever, place it in front of a typewriter, and eventually its random typing could produce Shakespeare….
Try it enough and a decent performance could be engineered fr anyone – even Chili…. Reliability and consistent performance withot injury – I think not… The moment Chili is made Bok no.1 hooker – I could place a safe bet that he would be injured within 3 games…
1 Jul 2010, 12:24 pm
@Porra the Fat Speedster(Porra)-111:
and I’m
glad you
Porra
are not
the Springbok
coach…
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-106: @XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-103:
Snap Bra! I took so long writing my post inbetween work that at the end I did not need to… you said it all.
now I’m out… I’ll keep an eye on the debate though…
1st choice this, 3rd choice that… 8th choice there… and that according to some is a FACT!!
This “1st Choice” argument is really meaningless IMO… whose 1st choice? yours or mine?… Ludeke or PdV?… his or her?
… etc etc etc…
1 Jul 2010, 12:25 pm
@theOracle(theOracle)-108: your point, explicitly…?
Excuse the selection of a player who is not the best in his position by giving an example of another player where that has happened…
That doesn’t make sense…
1 Jul 2010, 12:27 pm
i really don’t get this, if pdv was under pressure to have a black hooker in the team, the easiest thing would’ve been placing maku on the bench and leave chili to play currie cup.
The phantom politicians i assume would be happy & the “traditional rugby watching demographic” would also be merely placated.
Then why select the contentious chiliboy?
1 Jul 2010, 12:28 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-128: Great post.
1 Jul 2010, 12:29 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-130: Its called setting up a straw man… akahlakaniphile na!
1 Jul 2010, 12:30 pm
@Ratel Brussow(Morne Steyn is under-rated)-132: Good man. Strange how some of us think alike
1 Jul 2010, 12:30 pm
@Porra the Fat Speedster(Porra)-105:
Like Wynand Olivier brought to the Boks in his 28 tests?? Oh wait!!
1 Jul 2010, 12:31 pm
If this is even remotely close to actual stats, then merit is completely out the window. These stats from Wiki:
Playing career
Position Hooker
Provincial/State sides
Years Club / team Caps (points)
2006-Present Blue Bulls 16 (5)
Super Rugby
Years Club / team Caps (points)
2005-Present Bulls 18 (5)
National team(s)
Years Club / team Caps (points)
2006-Present Springboks 10 (0)
1 Jul 2010, 12:31 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-131: Is Chilboy’s dad a tendertrepeneur by any chance…? Or is his family connected…?
There is a precedenct for this – Lukepuke…
1 Jul 2010, 12:32 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-130:
Try John Smit when he was chosen as Bok captain, or a young Jaques Fourie at wing based on Jakes belief in him.
1 Jul 2010, 12:33 pm
The fact of the matter is Chili hasn’t produced the goods in the last five or six years. That’s a long time to keep peddling the “potential” tag. But the transformation fanatics will only see that and nothing else. Gary Botha is a proven superior to Chili. Even if he was fit, would it make any difference, there are other technical areas to his game that just haven’t been where it needs to be, and this can’t be blamed on injuries. When all is said and done, he simply isn’t good enough, we haven’t seen even a flash of his age-group form, but that goes with many players who never make the next step up, but racists will keep pushing him into the Bok side regardless because they want to see things in him that aren’t there, and try to use him to prove a point and yet again try to prove us wrong. But it just costs the team, like the 3rd Lions test, the demolition job on Chili at scrum time gave them the platform to defeat us. When will they learn that the Boks are not a vehicle for personal vendetas.
1 Jul 2010, 12:35 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-128:
Did he perform better than Botha or Liebenburg in the S14 – supposedly the prime indicator of form for Bok selection… ? Prime but not the only indicator… Frans & JvN did not play S14…
“Try it enough and a decent performance could be engineered fr anyone – even Chili…”… you may be right… now if only we could get Wynand O to engineer this kind of performance for the Boks!
I’ve heard this saying here before “Form is temp.. and Class is Perm..” that means someone somewhere (read Bok Management) thinks that Chilli is class… this answers a few of your questions…
1 Jul 2010, 12:36 pm
@David(David)-138: I don’t get yor point – John Smit was good for the team not only on the basis of his proven playing ability, but also for his leadership skills… Jaque Fourie was an experimentation at a different position, like Aplon – no argument there, but the case of Chili is different…
Clutching at straws…?
1 Jul 2010, 12:36 pm
@Alucard(Alucard)-139: Do you care to expand on those “technical areas” you are referring to, I would love to know, in fact a **** load of us here would kill to know.
1 Jul 2010, 12:39 pm
@Porra the Fat Speedster(Porra)-125:
Logically?
What logic do you apply to that?
Logic I choose to apply is to compare as best I could. That would mean what happens on the park when both play – and in this instance one area was the Super 14, and the other the recent tests.
Otherwise there is now way to measure each player.
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-128:
Let’s try this as posted:
Compare apples with apples and all that… What did Chilli do to be chosen as the no 2. hooker in South Africa in the first instance…? Did he perform better than Botha or Liebenburg in the S14 – supposedly the prime indicator of form for Bok selection… ?
Was it because the Bulls management did not give him the “opportunity” to take his “rightful place” at the top of the pecking order as hooker for the Bulls S14… Was Botha unfairly favored at the Bulls… Was Maku unfairly favoured at the Bulls…
Considering the Stormer flavour of the Boks, it is hugely “unlucky” that Liebenburg was not selected as hooker for the Boks…
The Boks and Bulls are two different teams, coached by two different coaches, each with their own management and game styles and both looking for results which needs to be delivered by those they select to achieve this.
Fair enough so far?
The Bulls rate player A over player B.
The reasons for this can be anything to the type of game they play, player and team strengths, how players compliments specific combinations and execution of plans or plays.
What exactly they require or look for we can only speculate, since none of us know.
They invest money, time and faith in all their players and selections and look for returns on those investments.
That is just the most obvious of arguably 100 things coaches have to take into consideration when selecting players since we did not even touch on conditioning, fitness, injury etc.
Most importantly however is that both the players and the coaches will only be judged on the results they achieve in practice, or on the pitch.
As long as a coach and player produces on what has been invested in them, the reason for change is minimal.
The question however remains how one can judge one coach being more right than the other – which seems to be the case here.
It seems a general acceptance that a union or franchise coach is more right in his selections, or certain selections and players are more justified in a national setup, based on the decisions made at provincial level.
So who is right and why?
Is Ludeke more right than De Villiers for selecting Botha over Chili? Or is De Villiers more right for selecting Chili over Botha? And if you can find a case for either one the most obvious question I will raise then is why?
Fact is, both are either right, or wrong given the results (on the field) or the return on their investment on those selections.
The time those investments does not show a positive return in results, then one can question the merits of those selections.
So to me there is no case to criticise Ludeke for selecting Botha above Chili – both he and Gary got the results.
Similarly, we can’t crit Peter either, because the scenario is exactly the same.
It is a wonder that the player market is not clamouring for a player of the “stature” of Chiliboy… Are journo’s not reporting on this, or covering up the huge interest in our Chili, or is it such that Chili is not as highly valued as some other SA hookers… If so, why?
It may be that Chili is falsely valued at this stage by those who have determined he should be in the Bok squad… “you can fool some, some of the time….etc”
Are we now judging the values of players according to how many offers they get and the values (monetary) of those offers?
Surely not.
Again I refer you to what I posted above.
Your opinion is the Chili is falsely valued, yet from where I sit Chili shows a positive return whenever on the park for the Boks whenever he takes the field (only place he can repay the investment taken in him).
So how do you then value the investment or value of players.
Apples with apples?
Not from where I sit sorry.
The moment Chili is made Bok no.1 hooker – I could place a safe bet that he would be injured within 3 games…
Can you give me the winning numbers for this Friday’s PowerBall draw too please?
1 Jul 2010, 12:40 pm
@theOracle(theOracle)-140: Not really,
No,
And so..
So 0 out of 3… this would normally mean failure but you can adjust using a curve to account for relative stoopidity in a tested population… You know, like teachers used to do adjust for schools that were more stoopid than others…
Here I will do it to account for habital schools of thought and for blindness caused by head in the sand…
1 Jul 2010, 12:41 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-130:
I apologise about the lack of clarity in my post HG
… I was only trying to understand this “1st choice” theory… 
1 Jul 2010, 12:42 pm
@Porra the Fat Speedster(Porra)-123: “but then politics in sa is all about race” hahaha what would you prefer politics in south africa to be about porrageezer? People were previously excluded from playing for the Springboks according to what criteria, fat, thin, vegetarian, religion? Gtfoh
1 Jul 2010, 12:44 pm
I don’t think this issue is as clearcut as it seems. Another variable in the equation is the trade-off between the current and the future.
The problem with labelling Chilli as a quota is that he has been part of the Bok setup for a very long time. PDV could argue that this could very well be a case of consistency in selection.
As I’ve said before on this blog, being the first-choice player for your province does not mean that you are necessarily a better choice at international level than the guy that sits at the bench provincially. The Januarie / Duvenhage scenario locally or the Shontayne Hape / Olly Barkly scenario in England are classic examples of this. Selections depend on various factors, including the specific gameplan a coach wants to employ or past familiarity with an existing structure.
Chilliboy and Januarie are both familiar with the Springbok gameplan, structures and everyday lifestyle and culture. They know the drills – being there, done that, got the T-shirt. Even if the T-shirt, in Chilliboy’s case, only have stains from about 200 minutes of game time.
In addition, Chilliboy is blooded as a national player post 2011, together with players such as Hargreaves, De Jongh and Potgieter. Therefore, giving them exposure now makes sense from a long-term perspective.
The problem with selecting Chilliboy over players such as Liebenberg and Gary Botha at current is simply because the latter two have proved their worth in the Super14, whereas Chilliboy has not.
However, what have we got to gain from picking Liebenberg and Gary Botha now? They could be better choices for the 3N this year, surely. But they might not be available for the 2015 RWC, and the second-choice Bok hooker, Bismarck, will go to NZ if ready.
We should ask ourselves if we are putting the cart in front of the horse by focusing on the future rather than the present. Do we care more about the future than the present?
If yes (and I suspect it is yes), we should ask another question: Is the national setup a place to give future players exposure or should the very best players still play at current despite their age and the declining marginal utility they can bring to the table in future?
PDV should also seriously ask himself – if both FDP and John Smit are injured and not available for the RWC 2011, will he start with Januarie and bench Chilliboy? Ruan Pienaar became the backup for FDP in the latter stages of the 2007 RWC and overtook Januarie, who warmed the bench for the bulk of the season. In hindsight, it is very difficult to argue that Januarie was not a quota selection in 2007 before the RWC.
I would bet my bottom dollar that PDV is still wary about his replacements, despite claiming otherwise in recent times. He is a very brave man by trying to predict future Bok teams and giving them exposure in current setups. But high risk investments often have the highest returns. Let’s hope the stockmarket does not crash.
1 Jul 2010, 12:44 pm
@David(David)-138:
John instantly proved Jake right, as well as Fourie. In fact Jake was very rarely wrong, the only times he never got it right was when trying to test players out to build depth, depth which just wasn’t there at that time. Chili has never played a good game for the Boks, never shown anything like it. That’s since 2005. That’s a long time, so the comparison to Jake is flawed from the outset.
1 Jul 2010, 12:46 pm
@willievz(willievz)-147:
Well yes.
The investment in players (based on selection) goes beyond the obvious as I mentioned before.
1 Jul 2010, 12:48 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-141:
How old was John when he was first selected for the Boks??
Was it for his leadship skills??
Hold old was Chilli and wasn’t he the captain of the SA U21 side at the time??
Didn’t Jake say that Chilli will more than likely captain the Boks one day??
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