Shades of grey
11 Aug 2010
There are enough quality young players of colour in South Africa to ensure quotas are no longer necessary at schools level, writes GRANT BALL in SA Rugby magazine.
The U18 Craven Week is meant to be the pinnacle of the South African schoolboy rugby season, but since its inception in 1964, its selection system has been flawed. In the early days, during apartheid, the best black schoolboys weren’t allowed to play, and in post-1994 South Africa, some of the best white players have missed out, in many cases because of the quota system.
For this year’s Craven Week held in Welkom, nine of the players in each 22-man squad had to be players of colour, with five on the field for the entire match on day one, four on day two, and five again on the Saturday.
However, the 50-50 racial quota for the SA Schools side was scrapped this year. Fourteen white players were named in the match 22 and the general consensus was that all eight players of colour had been selected on merit.
Saru’s high-performance manager Herman Masimla acknowledges that Craven Week is the envy of the rest of the rugby-playing world. But if the tournament doesn’t help to produce good results for age-group national teams, it’s not reaching its objective.
The SA U18 team’s 45-13 defeat to their English counterparts last year was a wake-up call, as was the SA U20 side’s third successive bronze medal at the Junior World Championship.
‘This is an elite programme, so we want the best,’ says Masimla. ‘This year there was a synergy between rewarding players who performed at Craven Week, and the requirements of producing a squad capable of winning at U20 level.’
But if SA Schools sides are to be selected on merit in future, shouldn’t the provincial teams do the same?
Western Province U18 coach Chris October, who fulfilled the same role with last year’s SA Schools outfit, believes quota selections have played a valuable role in a unique country like South Africa, but that there’s no longer a need for them.
‘At schools level, we’re able to pick on merit,’ he says. ‘You just have to look at the composition of the SA U20 side to see that we don’t require quotas anymore.’
October notes that certain players of colour are immediately labelled as quota selections, even in cases where they’re actually better than the white players in the same position. He says the only way this stereotyping will stop is if quotas are dropped.
‘Speaking as a previously disadvantaged person, if you talk to all black players, 99% of them will tell you they don’t want to be tagged as a quota player. They all want to be selected on merit alone.
‘We want a situation where we just regard the players as human beings and then select the side. If all 15 of the best players are black or all 15 are white in a particular year, then so be it. Those teams must just be selected.
‘It’s important that the work is done at grassroots level. If all South Africans are being given an equal opportunity, players will come through naturally and we can select teams on merit.’
Western Province, Eastern Province, Boland and Border regularly meet the transformation requirements at U18 level on merit, and at times exceed them. The problem is that inland unions, such as the Golden Lions, Blue Bulls and Free State, don’t have as many players of colour to select from.
This has led to many individuals from coastal areas being given bursaries to schools up north, but Lions U18 coach Gollie Gouws, who was October’s assistant with SA Schools last year, says it’s still tough finding enough quality players in those regions, and that the quota for each union should depend on the number of black players in their region.
‘At the Lions’ final trials, we only had 42 black players out of 112 schools to choose from. Twenty of those 42 have to be selected [nine for Craven Week and 11 for the 22-man Academy Week squad]. To put that into context, only one player of colour at our final trials had been playing rugby at one of our high schools for all five years. We had to bring the rest in from the Eastern Cape.’
Gouws says transformation is about picking a black player over a white one when they possess similar abilities, but in certain cases the players aren’t comparable.
‘The numbers are favoured heavily against white players coming through. It would be good to have a little bit of relief in terms of the numbers, because we don’t want to be unfair to white players, which is the case at the moment. We are losing white players to other unions and to rugby.’
Selecting the best squad of 22 always creates problems as it’s a subjective process, where coaches and selectors will favour certain individuals. However, in the past five years there have been some highly contentious omissions from Craven Week.
Four players who missed out on selection for their provinces are Bjorn Basson, Francois Hougaard, Mathew Turner and PW van Vuuren.
Springbok wing Basson’s ommission from Border’s Craven Week side was a case of talent not being identified as other black wingers were selected ahead of him.
Another current Bok, Francois Hougaard, missed out on Western Province Craven Week selection due to quotas, and he eventually moved to the Bulls.
Turner was the country’s leading try-scorer in schoolboy rugby in 2006 (28 in 17 matches) and he added another 146 points with the boot, but surprisingly he wasn’t deemed good enough to play for Western Province. Turner did play for WP U19 the following year, but when he wasn’t selected for the SA U20 or SA Sevens sides after being the Varsity Cup’s leading try-scorer in 2008, he turned his back on South Africa. He now plays for Bristol and the England Sevens side.
Van Vuuren’s case is an extraordinary one. Emphasising how difficult it is for provinces such as Free State to fill their Craven Week quota, the Grey College 1st XV hooker wasn’t selected in his Grade 11 year, with his place being taken by a schoolmate who was in the 5th XV.
Van Vuuren, though, was selected for Craven Week the following year and went on to play for SA Schools and SA U20. He says his mental strength prevented him from becoming disillusioned like other players in similar situations.
‘It was an awful time. It really sucked because I’d worked hard to make it into the Grey 1st XV. To then not make Free State’s Craven Week side – which is a weakened Grey side – because of quotas, was a setback.
For me, the main thing was to not get upset, lose confidence and think that I wasn’t good enough to play at that level. I chose to look at the positives. I’ve always said, if you’re good enough, you’ll make it – it may just take a bit longer.
‘Quotas are not a bad thing, as they are helping to make the game more representative, and the guy who took my place wasn’t a bad guy. I wasn’t mad at him, because it wasn’t his choice. It was just an irritating situation.
‘At senior level we see that the best players always come through. There aren’t quotas at senior provincial level because unions have to pay their players, and they can’t afford to contract sub-standard guys. The Boks also select the best players possible, with the exception of one or two surprises.’
SA Rugby magazine has an extremely reliable source who says a similar situation to Van Vuuren’s occurred with this year’s Western Province Craven Week side.
A black player from a local school had been identified as a talent for the future due to his size and skill, but he was dropped from his school’s 1st XV after a poor season and his place was ironically filled by another black player. Yet he was still selected for WP, even though he couldn’t play trials because he was out for five weeks due to injury.
However, October denies this. ‘I help select the side, and I seriously don’t know anything about that.’
Gouws says there are many cases where the black player is the best in his position, but in the few instances when the player clearly isn’t good enough, it does him more harm than good to be selected. He adds that some players of colour drop their standards at trials because they realise there are certain spots in a squad earmarked for quota players.
‘Sometimes quota players measure themselves against the other quota players in their position at trials,’ says Gouws. ‘Instead of measuring themselves against the 12 best wings, they compete against the three best black wings.
‘We have good young black players who are coming through on merit. Monde Hadebe, who played hooker for SA Schools in 2008, is the perfect example; he came through on his own ability. If the guys are good enough, that’s wonderful and they must be selected. The problem is when you’re forced to pick them.
‘In the past, the SA Schools selectors were obliged to look at black players in certain positions, such as hooker, scrumhalf and the utility backs. They picked guys so they wouldn’t get fingers pointed at them.
‘But last year we had to pick a 56kg scrumhalf from Dale [Bongi Kobese], because the Paul Roos captain [Rick Schroeder] was injured after Craven Week. That meant we had the eighth or ninth best scrumhalf playing against England U18. I looked at all his stats after the physical testing, and his muscle percentage and tone were poor. Don’t get me wrong, he’s a good player, but in a match of that nature, he was found out.’
Considering all these factors, it’s no surprise that the SA Schools side was embarrassed 45-13 by their England counterparts.
Unfortunately, we’ve seen this story before. In 2005, diminutive Mandilakhe Tile from Dale was selected for SA Schools, and a year later he moved up to the Bulls. He hasn’t played for a single representative side since.
Tile is not alone and from the SA Schools side that lost 30-24 to SA Academy five years ago, similar stories exist for Charlton Prinsloo, Riacco Eilerd and Malungisa Nkosi, even though they’re only 23.
Dries van der Wal is considered an authority on schools rugby after coaching Grey Bloem for over 20 years from the mid-80s. He was involved with Free State Schools for 10 years and SA Schools for six until he stepped down in 2007, and as an educationalist he’s watched the game and country change.
Like October and Gouws, he’s emphatic that quotas have served their purpose, pointing to the large number of players coming through in various positions at top 20 schools such as Paul Roos, Paarl Gym, Glenwood, Selborne, Grey PE, and Maritzburg College.
‘South African schools are doing their utmost to transform the game,’ says Van der Wal. ‘The coastal regions don’t struggle with quota numbers, but the interior does because there are less people of colour who play rugby. There are positives and negatives to quotas, and some good rugby players have come through because of them. But we’ve reached a point where we can pick teams on merit. There are brilliant young players coming through – recent Craven Weeks have been filled with them.’
Van der Wal doesn’t believe coaches will start to ignore black players if quotas are done away with, because they will continue to select their best team.
‘I listen to the coaches and the way they speak, and there has been a mind shift,’ he says. ‘They give credit to all the players – no matter what colour. There are very few coaches who see race at our school. We know we must go for the best players because we have to produce results. We are very positive about developing players of colour.
‘We must also remember that the country has changed since 1994, and some of those coaches’ best friends are black. Of course you get exceptions – from both whites and blacks – but young people have forgotten about the past and they want to move on and forget about the black-white, quota thing.’
Van der Wal wants quotas at Craven Week to be phased out over the next few years.
‘Many of us coaches go out and develop players of colour because we know we need them and they add value. We can’t do away with quotas immediately, but they should be reduced from year to year. For example, next year they should drop it from nine to seven. There are more than enough black players for the SA Schools selectors.’
– This article first appeared in the August issue of SA Rugby magazine.
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337 Comments
11 Aug 2010, 11:08 am
PDV off the hook for now
PDV Dragon – A claim of alleged misconduct against Springbok Coach Peter de Villiers has been dismissed by SANZAR Judicial Officer Jannie Lubbe.
The misconduct charge related to comments made by the Springbok Coach on Australia’s Fox Sports ‘Rugby Club’ programme on 21 July 2010, in which De Villiers said: “I’ve got my own observations about the last two Tests, and maybe I can’t say it in public, but we do have a World Cup in New Zealand next year and maybe it was the right thing for them to win the games so they can attract more people to the games next year.”
Mr Lubbe heard the case on Friday 6 August 2010 and after considering the evidence decided that, on balance of probability, Mr de Villiers had not breached the SANZAR code of conduct.
Mr Lubbe stated that during his interview with Fox Sports, Mr De Villiers never mentioned or referred to referees or match-fixing.
“I’m satisfied with the outcome,” said De Villiers.
“As the verdict makes clear, at no time did I mention referees or a conspiracy and the finding has put this whole incident into context.
“The matter is behind us and we can get on with preparing for our next Test match. I will not be commenting on it further.”
11 Aug 2010, 11:11 am
Well, you just have to consider the fact that Francois Hougaard didn’t actually make the WP Craven Week team.
And look at him today.
I didn’t read the entire article, but the fact remains:
Quotas will only be dropped if sufficient black guys can make the team on merit to keep the racial balance at the level they want it.
So the simple question is: What happens if there are NEVER enough black guys who can make the team on merit? What then?
11 Aug 2010, 11:14 am
Then the Quota domination continues…
11 Aug 2010, 11:15 am
@Guns(Guns)-1: That was yesterday’s news.
11 Aug 2010, 11:15 am
Quota’s will never be dropped at any level of any sector in RSA.
11 Aug 2010, 11:28 am
here we go again, a quotas thread,
11 Aug 2010, 11:31 am
There was an article on keo the other day about how they were dropping quotas at schoolboy level. My comment was emphatically, BS!!
Mind you, this idea of not picking the best in their respective positions is absolutle nirvana for talent scouts at unions with the best academies Sharks and Bulls.
They get to cherry pick the best of the disollutioned/unpicked lot, prime example Hougaard.
11 Aug 2010, 11:32 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-2: Well you already know the answer to that one…
11 Aug 2010, 11:38 am
frans steyn fit….joins boks thursday.
11 Aug 2010, 11:50 am
@grant10(grant10)-9:
He’s not match fit let alone test match fit, has not been in the Bok fold and I can bet you that if he’s picked in the 22 the muppets on this site will expect him to work miracles!
Very much like RP was expected to win the last Aus test after 40mins of test rugby at in 5 outings.
11 Aug 2010, 11:51 am
A lot of us are mixed race as the so called coluored people did not fall out the sky! Many of us are mixed race and so are many players if they scratched a bit!
can a witouk with DNA proof claim to quota or is it a percentage or pencil thing!
11 Aug 2010, 11:51 am
“Mind you, this idea of not picking the best in their respective positions is absolutle nirvana for talent scouts at unions with the best academies Sharks and Bulls.”
Not to mention the ARU and NZRU scouts that have been lurking the past few seasons.
11 Aug 2010, 11:53 am
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-8: Which is what?
It cannot carry on forever. The longer it does, the longer people will continue to see each as black or white.
Treat them as equals.
11 Aug 2010, 11:58 am
Quot’s should fall away completely. It is a insult to a player.
For that matter Mvovo should make the boks very soon and HE will be there on merit not his skin colour. What a fantastic talented player he is. Hope to see him in the Green and Gold for the Boks in the eoyt.
11 Aug 2010, 11:59 am
@Puma(Puma)-14: Meant = Quota’s
11 Aug 2010, 12:00 pm
@grant10(grant10)-9: Grant,
Did you just fall out of bed? LOL. We have read that on a thread here and many other blog sites have had it up from early this morning.
11 Aug 2010, 12:00 pm
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-2:
Its not an easy answer Tac because it could vary by province.
There are std quotas across all provinces. The hurdle is easy to clear in the EP, WP, Boland etc.
Its not so easy in provinces where the indigenous population don’t support rugby much. In Natal the Indian and Zulu populations don’t show much interest (apart from some Zulu kids).
The Zulu kids at the top Natal rugby schools (College, Glenwood, Michaelhouse etc.) certainly have a shot but there is no grass roots to speak of. Those kids are quite often the sons of professionals or businessmen.
SO in Natal the mere existence of a quota will probably keep deserving players out the side. In WP the quota will have little or no effect since the quota is naturally attained (i.e. it is irrelevant)
So its irrelevant on the one hand and damaging on the other…
Makes sense lets keep it.
11 Aug 2010, 12:02 pm
@KevinRack(KevinRack)-11: Excellent post and well said. Racial profiling based on appearance/skin colour is so dubious.
11 Aug 2010, 12:03 pm
@money_man(money_man)-10: agree…..he is being set up to fail
11 Aug 2010, 12:06 pm
Provincialism, poor management and politics is probably more of an issue in our rugby!
Any race based policies never deliver the best results for those it supposed to help!
I don’t even care if our whole team were tjaras as long as they were the best and winning
11 Aug 2010, 12:06 pm
@Puma(Puma)-16: sorry….been out ….just saw it now.
11 Aug 2010, 12:07 pm
Quotas aren’t acceptable at ANY level.
11 Aug 2010, 12:10 pm
We are so PC we have fat quotas too
11 Aug 2010, 12:11 pm
And NZ Maori carries a quota of 100% — you must have some Maori racial DNA/ancestry — to qualify. That too is an abomination.
11 Aug 2010, 12:11 pm
@RedMan(RedMan)-13: Come now REDMAN, surely you cannot deny that if there are not enough representative players in the teams, that it won’t be long before someone stands up and makes some sort of outrageous atatement in Parliment that a representative team is more important than a winning team..and there we go again.
There’s no doubt that PDV has to consider players of colour of non white or however you want to put it when he chooses his players..The fact that there are enough that currently make the team on merit is moot, because Tacitus asked the question “what if there was not??”
Having said this, let me put forward my list of players that currently make the team on merit, and shoot me if you want, but I stand by my statement. It doesn’t mean they’ll always make the starting lineup but here we go:
JPP
Brian
JDJ
Beast
Gurthro
Aplon
Those that are good enough but haven’t yet been, or have been selected briefly:
Mapoe
Mvovo
Basson
Jantjies
Those who shouldn’t be there but for their colour(IMO):
Zane
Ricky
Chilli
Sorry, but I’m calling it as I see it. Enough of this pussyfooting around the issue.
11 Aug 2010, 12:15 pm
Quotas are acceptable and necessary at lower levels due to the history of our country, and to generate more interest for the game in non-white communities.
However, what is AS necessary is boots, balls, fields, gyms, clinics, and diets for the young rural non-white guys in poorer/rural areas so they can grow and compete with the more affluent city boys (of all colours).
When are we going to see the first Indian guy (for example) in a Bok jersey? (there hasn’t been one has there?) That would be cool.
SARU should be spending the hefty profits they make on those kinds of things – mobile clinics, coaches and gyms to the rural areas. Think of the talent hidden in the Eastern Cape…
11 Aug 2010, 12:16 pm
@KevinRack(KevinRack)-23: LOL
11 Aug 2010, 12:16 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-25: ja
well let me not be accused of pussyfooting either.
Quotas with plae skins
WO
Spies
Plod
ruan pienaar….
When is just being a saffa ever going to be enough [ in the immortal words of Justrugby! ].
Far more so called pale skin quotas than so called darker skin quotas.
Bloody hell
11 Aug 2010, 12:16 pm
plae is pale
11 Aug 2010, 12:17 pm
oke has a darker skin and doesent play well….he is a quota.
Paleface doesent play well….its a poor selection.
Fark it…..strange country we live in.
11 Aug 2010, 12:19 pm
@TheTackler(TheTackler)-24: About 8 years ago Cullen, coming back from injury, needed game time. NZRU found 1/16 Maori in him so he could a warm-up game for the Maoris.
Surely that was taking the Mickey.
11 Aug 2010, 12:21 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-25: It was a necessary evil when the country evolved in the 90′s and early 00′s, but it’s a flawed system.
It cannot, or should not, carry on for too much longer, and I don’t believe it will. Until that day we’ll just have to put up with it.
As Tackler righly points out, it’s not acceptable.
The reason I addressed you, is that you think it’s a foregone conclusion that it will continue i.e. we aren’t in disagreement about the primary problem, but you think it’s here to stay?
11 Aug 2010, 12:23 pm
Just thought of it. Snor’s first Bok team had 7 players of colour in starting side and beat the then 6N Grand Slam champs by 25 points. I thought that was the end of quota discussions.
11 Aug 2010, 12:25 pm
the assumption is that all white players at all levels are there on merit
no favouritism, no provincialism, no racism, yeah right!
11 Aug 2010, 12:27 pm
Topic has been flaunted to death.
Only thing I can really add is what the new CEO of rugby has said recently which I think sums all this up.
“People’s minds need to transform…”
11 Aug 2010, 12:27 pm
@grant10(grant10)-21: Okay no problem. Thought the weather kept you in bed. Damn freezing here in Umhlanga today. Well for me it is. Around 18 or 19 today and overcast. Used to our sunny weather this time of year. The past week it was 27 – 28 everyday now back to this cold weather. At least it is not as cold as Joburg. Hear it is really freezing up there. Snow all over the Berg. Should had my 3 days up there now instead of a few weeks back. Love the log fires and snow outside. Not here in Umhlanga we are not geared up for it, no heating as such…..hehehehe.
11 Aug 2010, 12:29 pm
@Simon(Simon)-4: so, a SA SANZAR official clears PDV of any wrongdoing? didnt see a thread about it..part of the cover up perhaps?
maybe there is a conspiracy in rugby??
11 Aug 2010, 12:30 pm
Classic KEO.co.za … when things are quiet …
Talk about qoutas and transformation …
It adds no value, but hey, it’s one more hit for the bunch of ******* masquerading as journalists.
11 Aug 2010, 12:31 pm
@grant10(grant10)-30: I guess favouritism is alive and well in all aspects, black and white. The difference is, No-one stands up in parliment and complains that Flo is picked above Steggman.
11 Aug 2010, 12:31 pm
m.o.n.k.e.y. is a bad word?
Perhaps those filters are a bit tight eh?
11 Aug 2010, 12:32 pm
this racial ramblings is not worth it no wonder those who left the country are not interested in coming back. when will south africa remove its mutli-coloured glasses from its face and start seeing people as people. this smartie-mentality is destroying our sport. please STOP It!!
11 Aug 2010, 12:34 pm
@davidv(davidv)-40: hehehe try primates or gorillas
11 Aug 2010, 12:34 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-39: Very correct there. Only Stegmann is injured now but at the time for leaving for our away tour to NZ/Oz he was not. Should have been.
11 Aug 2010, 12:35 pm
@grant10(grant10)-30: Agree. Add Schalla to your list.
11 Aug 2010, 12:35 pm
@davidv(davidv)-40: Andrew Symonds acted as an adviser when they compiled the “naughty word list”
11 Aug 2010, 12:36 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-39: quotas cuts both ways…..far too many paleface hangers on….but thats not labelled.
Our very own capitano is , by definition, a quota. He is certainly not there on merit…..but because he is pale it is acceptable?
My man….merit should be the only criteria….as i am sure we all agree.
But merit has its drawbacks….because it implys honesty.
The real problem in our set up has absolutely nothing to do with ‘ quotas’
and everything to do with a Closed non merit Fat Boys Club.
11 Aug 2010, 12:36 pm
@malema vs verwoerd(malema vs verwoerd)-41: well said!
11 Aug 2010, 12:42 pm
@grant10(grant10)-46:
You’ve lost your marbles over the last 6 months or so. You used to be sensible.
I think I’ll refer to you as Skopskiet’s Mini-me from now on.
11 Aug 2010, 12:46 pm
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-48: whatever floats your boat …..
by the way the drama queen post savings you did….never brought it up again did you ?
11 Aug 2010, 12:48 pm
@grant10(grant10)-49:
I’ve been away for the last few weeks.
However, the fact remains, you ARE a drama queen. Always ranting and raving about the next big disaster etc.
The fact that your rantings happen to coincide with the reign of a clownish coaching trio at the present time doesn’t make you Nostradamus.
As they say, even a broken clock is right twice a day.
11 Aug 2010, 12:49 pm
@grant10(grant10)-49:
I’ve been away for the last few weeks.
However, the fact remains, you ARE a drama queen. Always ranting and raving about the next big disaster etc.
The fact that your rantings happen to coincide with the reign of a clownish coaching trio at the present time doesn’t make you Nostradamus.
As they say, even a broken clock is right twice a day.
11 Aug 2010, 12:51 pm
habana, guthro, juan de jongh, aplon, jp petersien, beast are all quotas. They’re all there on merit.
11 Aug 2010, 12:55 pm
@gecko(gecko)-31: That 1/16th is Maori DNA and it’s 100% Maori DNA, so Cully was in, like a rat up a drainpipe. But without that precious DNA he’d be nowhere near. Wouldn’t meet the quota requirements, you see?
A disgrace.
11 Aug 2010, 12:56 pm
Two pieces of news just out:
** PDV calls on Jacques Nienaber (Stormers defense coach) to join them at the Bok camp
** Sharks lose Mapoe bid – he will stay a Cheetah
11 Aug 2010, 12:57 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-34: you took the words right out of my mouth…
that is why you hear statements like “choose the best 15″ which most of them time means something other than exactly that…
11 Aug 2010, 12:58 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-54:
damn…
11 Aug 2010, 12:59 pm
Transformation. How do you know? As an example, if SA rugby had strubbornly stuck with January and Conradie at scrumhalf as they do with black wings in virtually every provincial team, would we ever have known about the talent of Du Preez?
Where have all the Carel du Plessis and Ray Mordt’s gone? Does the SA gene pool suddenly not produce white wings anymore?
11 Aug 2010, 13:00 pm
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-51: ja….
nostradamus has a few more pearls for you Tacitus….
you can save them on your computer…
and then duck for a few weeks…
11 Aug 2010, 13:00 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-54: Both stories have been added to our Currie Cup and Tri-Nations threads.
11 Aug 2010, 13:01 pm
@TheTackler(TheTackler)-53: Except that it turned out not to be true.
How do you feel supporting the Maori? Seeing you have not 0.00000!% Maori DNA in you, and in fact, your DNA, like mine, like FW de Klerk, like Eugene Terreblance etc are closer to Ricki Januarie’s than Peri Weepu.
11 Aug 2010, 13:02 pm
@Simon(Simon)-59:
Cool Simon, when I checked it wasn’t just caught it on the 24 website.
11 Aug 2010, 13:03 pm
WTF is a ‘white ‘ wing….
A skinless KFC ckicken special?
Fark me….this is too much for me…
will come back when racist talk dissipates.
It is enough to make me puke on my farken keyboard.
11 Aug 2010, 13:07 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-52:
Imagine if Louis Strydom and Herkie Kruger had been a shade darker, would they have lasted ten years in the CC?
11 Aug 2010, 13:10 pm
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-57: how do i know what?
As to your question on the gene pool producing white wings, ask the various coaches – at all levels. They’re the ones who tried to minimise the ‘disruption’ of their teams by players of colour by piling them on the wings.
11 Aug 2010, 13:10 pm
@grant10(grant10)-62: Skinless KFC? Surely that’s defeating the purpose?
Everyone know’s it’s the skin that makes a KFC piece of chicken. I’m not sure what would be so special about that special.
11 Aug 2010, 13:13 pm
Skinless KFC would be like decaf coffee and skimmed milk.
A total waste.
11 Aug 2010, 13:15 pm
@mxhosa(mxhosa)-63: think monty dumond, riaan swanepoel, jaco van der westhuyzen etc…
11 Aug 2010, 13:18 pm
Anyone else see that woman get aggro at KFC when they didn’t want to serve her KFC nuggets as it was still breakfast time?
Tried to punch the person at the drive thru window a few times. Ended up smashing the window and driving off.
11 Aug 2010, 13:30 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-67:
Speaking of “merit selections”, Francois Hougaard who was hond kak in last EOYT, has played two games at scrumhalf this year (against the Pumas and the Lions), is a must for next week’s game…
11 Aug 2010, 13:34 pm
@grant10(grant10)-46: We all agree that merit should be the only criteria, but to ignore the fact that race is a factor in selections is to ignore the elephant in the room. Trumpeting at the top of his voice…..
Even Hoskins admitted that it was a factor, only he rephrased it as the current political commitments to transformation. When the ofiicials stop using innuendo like that, then so will we. But we don’t pick the team or quotas, they do.
Hate the game, not the playa.
11 Aug 2010, 13:36 pm
@gecko(gecko)-60:
interesting factoid…
a sea sponge shares 70 percent dna with human beings…
so we’re not as evolved as we like to believe…
11 Aug 2010, 13:38 pm
Stormersboy
Fo Sho..
11 Aug 2010, 13:38 pm
@ufo(ufo)-71:
I would imagine a 1% DNA difference is the difference between you and an earthworm though.
Or you and a Bulls supporter!
11 Aug 2010, 13:40 pm
@ufo(ufo)-71: Hence soaking up the facts
11 Aug 2010, 13:40 pm
@gecko(gecko)-60: I totally disapprove of ANY race-based rugby team, and that includes NZ Maori. They are abundantly good enough to play for the ABs on merit alone — as many do. And that should be that.
(Cullen’s one great-granny was a part-Maori, so Cully does have a bit of Maori DNA, making him eligible.)
11 Aug 2010, 13:40 pm
@gecko(gecko)-74: kak pun i know
11 Aug 2010, 13:41 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-73:
eina…!!
11 Aug 2010, 13:42 pm
@gecko(gecko)-74:
that wasn’t so bad…
but what i’d like to know is when are we gonna fight for the inclusion of sea sponges in the bok team…??
11 Aug 2010, 13:44 pm
hmmm
11 Aug 2010, 13:45 pm
@grant10(grant10)-62: Hence, your love for LW!
11 Aug 2010, 13:47 pm
As long as these racist quota policies exist South African School Teams will be below par, which in turn will have a ripple effect on or senior rugby in due course, with talented youngsters leaving our apartheid quotas systems for equity and equality.
11 Aug 2010, 13:49 pm
seems we’ve got 15 quota human beings in the Bok team…
we’d get better results if human quotas were expunged (hehehe…) and we had 15 sea sponges on the field…
11 Aug 2010, 13:54 pm
*sigh*
11 Aug 2010, 14:07 pm
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-2:
If you look at the transformation taking place currently in the lower ranks of rugby, and within the country as a whole, and you then consider the fact that black Africans make up circa 80% of the South African population whilst white folk make up circa 10%, that situation is not likely to happen.
11 Aug 2010, 14:09 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-84:
I respectfully disagree.
11 Aug 2010, 14:12 pm
habana is definitely not a quota!!! but he is sure playing like one in 2010
11 Aug 2010, 14:14 pm
@foreverrugga(foreverrugga)-81: Once we are “happy with the teams performance” like bafana (note lower caps) after they couldn’t make the second round, transformation will be complete!
Then I’ll have to start watching Oz and English Rugby league! And that’ll be the end of me!
11 Aug 2010, 14:15 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-84: exept that 80 don’t all play rugby, and certainly most of them that do, would not be good enough for the Springboks. But yes, if many did play, then we should get a fair amount of talent coming through….
How do you account for the fact that there are many “White” Springboks are the best in the world at theitr positions, even amoung the islanders, North African French, etc etc…?
11 Aug 2010, 14:15 pm
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-85:
Are you going to enlighten me?
11 Aug 2010, 14:16 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-84:
There is a moerse difference between demographic numbers vs. rugby playing numbers.
In other words, how much of that 80% of black people play or support rugby?
Better yet, what is the racial make-up of numbers from all the ethnic groups playing and supporting rugby.
Are blacks the majority?
Whites?
Coloureds?
Those are the numbers thats important imo.
11 Aug 2010, 14:17 pm
@geroom_sexwater(geroom_sexwater)-86: he most definitely is, when hoskins counts the number ie quota of players of colour that make up the current springbok team, he also counts habana! If behind the scenes pdv is instructed to maintain a certain number (read quota) of players of colour he starts counting with habana, guthro, jdj, beast etc and the politicians then get off his back.
11 Aug 2010, 14:23 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-90: A few weeks ago a blogger mentioned jokingly that we should get rid of locks and replace them with loose forwards (I say jokingly because he also mentioned getting rid of tightheads), but I think he may accidentally have made a very good point. If you assume that having traditional line out forwards is only an advantage during lineouts (kick offs are uncontrolled, and being 5cm taller than the next oke is no help at all in receiving them, whilst in scrums it’s strength, not height that counts), and since line outs and rucks are fundamentally the same in that they are contests for possession, then having traditional line out forwards can only be a benefit if the number of line outs exceeds the number of breakdowns. Since the number of breakdowns vastly exceeds the number of line outs, you should therefore have two extra loose forwards rather than traditional locks. Even if the opposition kick for touch more often, the number of line outs will never come close to exceeding the number of breakdowns, and by kicking more often you risk giving possession away (by not kicking the ball out, or if the opposition takes a quick line out) , and the extra loose forwards will then come into play. Imagine a forward pack consisting of Gurthro Steenkamp, Bismarck Du Plessis, BJ Botha, Danie Rossouw, Juan Smith, Schalk Burger, Heinrich Brossouw and Pierre Spies/Dewald Potgieter. We’d lose nothing in the scrums, very little in the line outs, but we’d dominate the breakdown (until people cottoned on and everybody dumped their locks, but it would be fun while it lasted).
What do you think?
11 Aug 2010, 14:24 pm
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-85:
Just heard, the All Blacks test in the 3N next year will be in your valley – PE will host it.
11 Aug 2010, 14:29 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-88:
It all starts at a young age.
I attended a white rugby playing school from grade 1 to Matric. My dad watched rugby, my friends watched rugby. I was born into a strong culture of rugby. That culture was based within a small white community and was protected for the most part within that community via all white schools etc.
I had access to top facilities at school, fantastic coaches and I played in a league that had the best players in the Western Cape.
The barriers that prohibited many others (vast majority) within the country from enjoying that same upbringing have been lifted. There is no doubt which way the graph is curving now, only the rate of change can be debated.
In answer to your second question, again it goes back to a strong rugby culture amongst white folk in our country (with money). That trickles down to good coaching, facilities etc etc. Resource is probably the main contributing factor, along with culture that produces so many of the great South African players.
11 Aug 2010, 14:32 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-90:
I understand that, but the long and short of it, in my opinion, is that more and more black children are now attending what were previously white-only rugby-dominated schools – that is where it all starts.
And as long as that keeps happening, the numbers will follow through naturally.
11 Aug 2010, 14:34 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-39:
I tried that..the Speaker called security. B itch.
11 Aug 2010, 14:35 pm
Stormersboy is closest to the truth. It’s not about sheer numbers. Else 1 billion Chinese should be able to field a rugby team no one can beat.
In truth, 4 million New Zealanders would klap the 1 billion Chinese even if every Chinese dude and his granny played rugby since Kindergarten.
11 Aug 2010, 14:36 pm
@Croc(1panzi)-92:
Well it is definately out of the box thinking but not all that new.
Many locks has backed up as loosies in the past or the other way around.
Danie Rossouw, Andre Venter, AJ Venter to name a few.
However I think you understimate the importance of kick-offs and set pieces in general.
One could clearly see what an effect poor kick-off retention had on the Wallabies in their first test against the All Blacks.
As for set pieces the actual techniques involved in scrumming and line-out work is also very specialised (more scrumming).
Problem is momentum in any match is either gained or lost at set-pieces or in the tight 5.
Modern rugby has moved a lot of the emphasis away from these areas and effective rucking defensively or offensively does have a huge impact on the final result.
The very nature of combinations also determines a team’s effectiveness. Your tight 5 are specialists in the tight phases and bulk and brute strength here is very important.
Locks do not only need to be anchors or drivers in scrums and jumpers in line-outs – their roles as supporting players in phased or loose play is also vitally important and well defined offensively and defensively.
I think there has been a marked increase in the option of selecting an ‘athletic’ lock with a ‘enforcer’ lock as your preferred combination in modern rugby to offer you the best of both basically going to what you are eluding to.
One also however have to notice the immense impact a Brad Thorne, Martin Johnson, Nathan Sharpe and Bakkies Botha (when not suspended) has on the modern game to realise that they are still very important.
Remember, rugby is not always about the high-paced stuff running teams off their feet – at times, and against the best you have to grind wins out as-well and that is where your fatties are crucial…
11 Aug 2010, 14:38 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-95:
That is true, but in context a hell of a lot of your traditional white, or rugby playing schools of old do not even present or offer the sport at school anymore too.
11 Aug 2010, 14:38 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-98:
Just look at the Bulls team collapse when Fudge Mabeta replaces Flip vd Merwe around the 60 minute mark.
11 Aug 2010, 14:39 pm
SA rugby can never progress unless we stop with our obsession about racial quotas.Just because of the demographic makeup of a country does not mean that a sport should be reflective of this breakdown.If you look at some football sides(i.e France)..there demographic makeup and the team selection does not “fit”..but as these are the BEST players they get chosen.How long are we going to harp on about quotas…if we at some point arrive at 15 players of colour in the SA squad will we still be on about quotas.I can confirm that in the past two years we have lost at least 12 white (junior)players of potential because of this policy.Enough is enough..!!!
11 Aug 2010, 14:40 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-99:
While we’re on the topic:
If the Chinese Politburo decreed that every boy in China must play rugby from now on, do you think China could beat NZ in rugby?
I sit back in anticipation while awaiting your answer.
11 Aug 2010, 14:42 pm
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-97:
Totally different scenrio which is why I mentioned transformation within society in our country as a primary factor.
In China hardly anyone plays or focuses heavily on rugby, and there is no change to that situation to speak of.
11 Aug 2010, 14:44 pm
@Spindoc(Spindoc)-101: Quotas a system promoted by the same politicians who want to promote the Media Tribunal. I rest my case. How about quotas in soccer?
I challenge anyone to define the race of a child born after 1994. Please do so within the legal context of the constitution. I makes me sick.
11 Aug 2010, 14:45 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-94: Good story. Thanks for sharing that. I agree it’s partly about coaching and facilities, and therefore opportunities. There’s also no denying that there is still a distinct lack of “equalisation” as far as that is concerned, BUT this is not restricted to rugby, but all aspect of life, education, health, infrustructure etc. I’m all for redressing ALL of those in those areas at that level. But I have no hesitation in saying that it has no place on an international level. We simply cannot compromise on a level which reflects the best that our nation has to offer. Yes, there are arguments to be made for the fact that a guy like Makhaya Ntini was picked at a time in his career when he wasn’t in the top 4 fast bowlers in SA, but given the oppotunity, he certainly became one of the greatest ever, and the same may be the case, in time with a guy like Chilliboy. So it’s hard to take a “black and white” stance and leave no room for the obvious grey inbetween. But the fact remains that people are fast tracked above others due partly to the fact that they fit a profile racially that is acceptable to the political goals imposed by the powers that be.
I have come to accept that this is an unfortunate fact of life in SA, and certainly will admit, as I have above that there are many instances where selection is purely on merit, but there are other instances where clearly it isn’t. I may not agree with it but i do accept it, but to deny that it exists is what annoys me the most. I get accused of being closed minded by pointing it out, but I didn’t create the rules. Sadly, the world over, athletes from poorer communities have had to struggle more to achieve than athletes with more opportunities, and this will continue, particularly here.
11 Aug 2010, 14:45 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-103:
NO, you misunderstand my point.
Assume every Chinese man plays rugby on a daily basis for the next 20 years. Will the Chinese be able to field a team in 20 years time – based purely on indigenous Chinese players – that could beat the All Blacks?
Yes or no?
11 Aug 2010, 14:45 pm
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-102:
I think we had this conversation before…
But in anycase to answer you no.
Rugby is as much as culture you associate with and enjoy as it is a sport.
I like rugby, I hate soccer.
It is just how I grew up.
I never had an affinity for the round-ball game, never developed any sort of love for it and find it utterly boring.
However, millions of people around the world have a compeltely different view than me about the sport.
Same reason I love cricket, and I hate baseball (I played both at club level).
If no interest is created for individuals in a sport from a young age, and supported through his immediate social and cultural structures I think you will struggle to estabslish any kind of success of such a sport with that person or community.
11 Aug 2010, 14:47 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-99:
Which schools are those because thse schools I grew up playing against are certainly all offering it and schoolboy log still has all the familiar names on it?
11 Aug 2010, 14:49 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-108:
Gauteng schools, specifically in the East Rand and central areas.
11 Aug 2010, 14:49 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-107:
OK, take it one step further then, since you are seemingly deliberately hiding behind a non-existent excuse.
Assume the Chinese have another cultural revolution and for national pride they embark on a campaign to become a leading rugby nation. Assume they all start playing rugby.
Apart from culture, interest and other “soft” obstacles, do you see any OTHER reason why they could not beat the All Blacks in 20 years time, given their immense numerical advantage?
11 Aug 2010, 14:54 pm
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-110:
so following your logic…?
what you’re saying is that the government should decree that every black, coloured and indian male should play rugby…
then no whites would make the team…
so you are for transformation… you really ARE…!!
11 Aug 2010, 14:58 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-107: Soccer is enjoyed all over the world because:
1. It’s the easiest game to play (something resembling a ball and perhaps a foot)
2. The majority are poor so they like the easiest game.
3. Poor people are stupid, otherwise they wouldn’t be poor.
11 Aug 2010, 14:58 pm
boring topic and discussion
11 Aug 2010, 14:59 pm
@ufo(ufo)-111: Indians playing rugby, now that I would pay to see. Those little skinny legs, broken into pieces.
11 Aug 2010, 15:00 pm
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-106:
Haha, you are not cross examining me in a court of law here, so please don’t try and corner me with the restriction of a “yes” or “no” answer to suit your argument.
If the entire population of China had been playing rugby for AS LONG as NZ, with the SAME level of priority placed on the sport that NZ do, then yes I think by sheer numbers they would be in a position to field a very competitive side.
The fact that you’ve picked a nation with perhaps one of the lowest average height per human figures in the world and put them up against NZ who field Islanders who are some of the most genetically athletic people in the world, has to be factored into the argument as well.
11 Aug 2010, 15:01 pm
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-110:
I am struggling to identify what point you are trying to make other than to disprove there is such a thing as strength in numbers…
If the Chinese, or any other non-or-almost-non existant rugby playing nation establishes the correct structures including having available the best available resources and have the numbers to feed and sustain and maintain them there is no reason they cannot be successful.
This obviously has to include establishing the game with structures and resources at all levels including age group levels, tertiary levels, club/provincial level spilling over to national level.
Employ the best and latest coaching and conditioning techniques and support it financially. Not to mention creating an interest and following for the game socially amongst its population…
Yes they will very well be successful.
But again, this wont happen and I fail to understand what you are trying to prove, or disprove.
Afterall, creating and establishing a culture or almost religious following to a sport like rugby has in some parts of the world (where it is very successful) does not happen in 20 years…
11 Aug 2010, 15:01 pm
@ufo(ufo)-111:
Are you deliberately misunderstanding me, or is my point geniunely so difficult to grasp?
I have never seen so much tiptoeing around a straighforward subject.
11 Aug 2010, 15:02 pm
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-110:
+1
11 Aug 2010, 15:02 pm
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-97: Well there we are getting into the arena of genetic suitability, as in the West Africans (and their American descendants) make great sprinters, East Africans make good distance athletes etc….
China is certainly starting to dominate sports where their genetic physical predisposition is compatible, such as gymnastics, diving, etc.
in the same vein many White South Africans have a certain amount of Dutch and German etc heritage, and as we know the Dutch are on average the tallest nation on earth, so it stands to reason that we would be able to compete in terms of physicality better than many other races/nations whatever you want to call it.
Similarly the Southern African black person is more likely to be built like a wing than a lock. Hence the stereotype. No amount of facilities and opportunity will change this trend, but will hopefully catch and develop the obvious exceptions to the rule like the Chillis, Mbetas etc.
Pointing out these differences doesn’t make me racist, on the contrary if the South African Sports administration was at all clever about this they would be focussing on improving areas where there is already a predisposition to compete successfully such as track athletics, boxing, distance running etc. By no means am I advocating ignoring a sport like Rugby, but we all know that it’s easier to take an 80% athlete who is naturally predisposed to a certain sport and make him 95% than taking a 50% athlete with natural challenges to overcome and making him 80%. This way the nation would gain more pride on the whole, we’d improve our sense of self belief and people wouldn;t be so confused all the time..
11 Aug 2010, 15:05 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-119: Yes and Indians are built like accountants. Your point is a good one.
11 Aug 2010, 15:07 pm
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-117:
of i understand you tac…
was just pointing out the chasm in your logic…
11 Aug 2010, 15:09 pm
@ufo(ufo)-121:
grrrrrr… digital dyslexia again…
OH i understand you tac…
was just pointing out the chasm in your logic…
11 Aug 2010, 15:09 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-105:
Agree with you completely. I’m completely against quotas at national level and even provincial level and Craven week.
I’ve always been in support of transformation at grass roots level, which requires time, planning and investment to succeed.
If that is done correctly there will be no need for quotas and you will get more of an in tune demographic reflection of the country in it’s national side naturally.
11 Aug 2010, 15:10 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-116:
OK. Your mind is apparently totally closed to the obvious.
Points I thought I was making absolutely clear still elude you in the above posts – according to you.
So let me spell it out:
Even if all 1.4 billion Chinese became fanatical rugby fans and played the game for the next 50 years, they won’t stand a chance in hell to beat the All Blacks, unless the Chinese GENETICALLY increase their average height by about 5 inches, and their average lean muscle weight by about 40kg’s.
Because GENETICALLY they are too small and too weak. Why is this a taboo subject? Why is it not the first obstacle that springs to mind, instead of lack of rugby culture or tradition or whatever.
Chinese are midgets compared to Maoris. End of story.
I used the Chinese as an extreme example to prove the basic concept, but obviously it was not extreme enough for the closed minded among you. Maybe I should have used the pygmies of central Africa instead.
Once the PRINCIPLE is established, it is only a matter of degrees to bring the comparison back to the SA scenario.
Conclusion. It is not just a matter of numbers, rugby culture and structures. There is the big elephant in the room called GENETICS, that plays the biggest role of all.
Only when that discrepancy is more or less eradicated – as in when NZ play SA, or Aus or England or France – does it come down to superior structures and the other “softer” issues.
It is very obvious, in the end.
11 Aug 2010, 15:10 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-115:
China only became a member of the IRB in 1998 and in 2007 had a an officially listed 4210 players
11 Aug 2010, 15:11 pm
More same old, same old…
On the one hand you have the realists (conveniently labelled as bigots, racist or verkramptes) and then on the other you have the Keo liberals (apologists for anything with a top-down prescription of “transformation” or perpetuation of (inverted)colour based selection practices)
And never the twain shall meet…
Don’t some of you get bored with this…
The pecliar reality of it all is that you have those that:
Talk left but walk right and those that
Talk right but actually walk left, in reality…
Think about it….
Most won’t though, too many high horses to dismount…
11 Aug 2010, 15:11 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-120: LOL no but lets rather say that they are built more like spin bowlers than fast bowlers…..
And yea, maths is big in India. And China. Someone once told me (and I can;t remember whether they were talking about India or China) that the reason that they were naturally good at maths (diligence and work ethic aside) is that their language is set up in a certain way that it assists with the thought process from a younger age. Not sure of it’s true….
11 Aug 2010, 15:12 pm
chinese nba star yao ming stands 2,29 metres tall…
reckon there’s a few more like that hiding amongst a billion of his countrymen…
11 Aug 2010, 15:12 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-116:
The thing is, we’re are talking about this hypothetical “cultural revolution”. But in reality, you can’t force a culture upon any family or community when your expected outcome is to generate willful sports players.
There is enough incentive for sports stars all over the world in every discipline.
How many blacks do you see in the world class swimming events? How many blacks do you see in the field events that don’t require running but emphasize tecnique?
How many whites do you see in the top-tier sprinting lineup?
But that’s basically where it ends.
The so-called “non-whites” simply don’t have the rugby-culture and where I’ve seen it, it is “nagemaak” and forced.
Thruth is,Habana is on the ropes (though I still believe he’s the best) and Gurthro is there by his sheer determination (he’s not the best scrummager, but I believe he’s good enough).
Other than that, there isn’t a position in the Springboks where a white player is the best.
There isn’t even a black player in every position in the Super14 in all the teams put together!!
So how much money and discrimination against our young (of all colours) are you still willing to throw at the situation??
11 Aug 2010, 15:12 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-126: Pecliar = peculiar
11 Aug 2010, 15:16 pm
is it safe to say that blacks are genetically suited to do boxing, seeing that the highest number of saffa world champions comes from that human wasteland (read township) named Mdantsane in the Eastern Cape?
11 Aug 2010, 15:17 pm
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-110: My post 119 is not so much in opposition with anything you’ve said but rather in support of it. I just thought I’d elaborate on the whole “elephant in the room” issue.
11 Aug 2010, 15:19 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-126:
it’s only boring because all you do is comment on the position that everyone else takes…
and never show the balls to state your own position…
it’s much easier to simply to everyone else’s opinions from the safe saddle of your own high horse… than to offer your own…
why don’t you comment on the discussion… contribute… and make clear your own thoughts and opinions…? i know they’d be very enlightening…
11 Aug 2010, 15:19 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-131:
I have said that for ages. But only for specific weight catagories.
Like Bantam, Feather, straw etc.
They are great at it. Why deny it? Why not embrace it instead?
Just like the South and Central Americans.
11 Aug 2010, 15:20 pm
@ufo(ufo)-128: When I was in China I stayed in a hotel where the Bellhop was the tallest Asian I’ve ever seen. Apparently they come mostly from a certain region. Having said that when I worked in Hong Kong and in taking the metro to work I used to be able to look over most people’s heads the whole way down the line. The only time my view was obscured was by a “westerner” or “round eye” as the local liked to call us. I never challenged this because most of them looked like they were related to Chackie Chan or Bruce Lee…
11 Aug 2010, 15:21 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-131:
How many black heavy weight world boxing champs has South Africa delivered? How many white?
Does it matter when it comes to a technically demanding sport of grace combined with speed, stamina, hand-eye coordination and a well thoughout, rehearsed and planned gameplan?
11 Aug 2010, 15:22 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-131: @Tacitus(Tacitus)-134: Precisely! Embrace the differences. Not that there won’t be Black people who are able to be Springbok locks, just that there will be more that would be great Flyweight and Featherweight boxers. And wings.
11 Aug 2010, 15:22 pm
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-124:
Ah so we are back to genetics…
We also covered this subject before and we are simply repeating ourselves all over again.
Contrary to popular belief Tac not all Chinese or Japanese are 3ft anorexic midgets, I have seen enough Japanese Sumo wrestlers in my life to prove this.
The fact that China only has 4000 registered rugby player however does mean that they will never be competitive.
11 Aug 2010, 15:22 pm
The issue with the lack of black interest and player development in the poorer areas in our country, is the lack of sustainable development structures. Mobile clinics are farcical, it is akin to watching the Matrix and then believing that you can emulate Keanu Reeves physics defying movements, without the movie stage with attendant props and equipment to ensure the dodging of bullets and gravity. Rugby is an enormously technical game, the understanding of the rules as a first step is critical, with the rules changing pretty often it’s imperative that kids are continuous under tutelage to keep up to date with developing strategies to fully adapt to the rules. As strategies are so important the thinking element of the game has to become ingrained in the kids by constant interaction with skilled coaches.
Body conditioning, bespoke diets, drills, tackling and passing techniques, functions at the tackle point, scrums, lineouts, kick-offs, defensive lines etc., cannot all be taught in a two day clinic on the weekend and remain with the kids in perpetuity. There have to be established academies or development centres in the townships and villages, as the schools don’t have rugby fields and equipment, SARFU has to establish a junior club system with a competitive structure. Many of these kids after leaving school in the afternoon are more often than not, left to their own devices, the abovementioned structures would absorb this enormous number of talent but SARFU’s regional and local structures would have to work in tandem with the local schools. With this system one could introduce several hundred thousand kids into a sustained rugby culture.
Statistics alone dictates that with a bigger pool of players to develop and select from, will invariably mean in the South African scenario, there being more players of colour in representative senior teams in time, being selected on merit than whites, pure and simple. Any culture is acquired owing to opportunity and circumstance, blacks in South Africa did not invent soccer, it’s an adopted sport and then was fostered into the rubric of black culture as a dominant spectator and playing sport. There’s no reason that rugby cannot achieve a similar feat if not in part.
11 Aug 2010, 15:23 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-127: Interesting, they have different dialects and languages in both countries though don’t they? Not sure how it could influence math but not sure if it couldn’t either so good call.
Decimal comes from the east, perhaps they have just been doing it longer and it’s embedded in the culture.
Anyway, they can’t play rugby, not that I have seen at least.
11 Aug 2010, 15:24 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-129:
Well you wont find me disagreeing with any of that.
You cannot force a culture down on a person (sports culture in this context).
I will never like soccer, simple.
Nothing you can do will change that.
11 Aug 2010, 15:25 pm
@ufo(ufo)-133: I have stated my position many times and subsequently have been labelled many times…
Simply put, top-down prescription of hue-based selection is a perpetuation of wrongs made in the past. Full stop.
This is an observation made in current times and has no link to the past other than correlation by colour…
Talk right, walk left… Differs to
Talk left, walk right…
Think about it before labelling, as you do…
11 Aug 2010, 15:26 pm
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-57: Would I be fair if I were to say, “White South Africa” in its history of rugby has yet to produce anything close to the geniuses of the legendary Peter Mkata
11 Aug 2010, 15:26 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-135:
cool… never been to China… would love to go…
11 Aug 2010, 15:27 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-140: Yes, but they play a kick@ss game of tabletennis…..
11 Aug 2010, 15:29 pm
@Qudeni(Qudeni)-139: It is SARU not SARFU, they changed about 4 years ago.
I actually think you are wrong, genetics mean certain groups are better than others at certain things, like running, sprinting, basketball, rugby etc. Maybe they will, maybe they won’t.
11 Aug 2010, 15:30 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-143: ???? Are you on drugs kid?
11 Aug 2010, 15:30 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-143:
Does that comment deserve a response? If so, I am not the appropriate person to comment on Peter Ntaka’s genius or lack thereof. To the Birds with that, I say!
Hehehe, just trying to show off my rudimentary Xhosa with a little wordplay there. Probably got it wrong in any case.
11 Aug 2010, 15:31 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-140: I hope you mean East, as in middle east. It is disputed whether the decimal system per se as the west started using it comes from China originally, unless your authoritative info comes from Wikipedia…
Simply: West <— Middle East <– India <— China or Japan has not been established and is in dispute
11 Aug 2010, 15:31 pm
@Qudeni(Qudeni)-139: There’s no doubt that a bigger pool would benefit SA in many ways, but as you say you can’t “hit and run” that sort of thing.
11 Aug 2010, 15:31 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-142:
who’ve i labelled…?
i merely commented on the fact that most of the posts i see from you, you are usually criticising other posters or insulting the holders of opinions that differ from yours…
i didn’t label you… i simply asked for your opinion… and thought it would be enlightening…
i apologise…
i was wrong…
11 Aug 2010, 15:32 pm
As per usual almost every post on this site eventually results in some form of racism, or talk of it.
Saffas are the most race obsessed people on the planet.
Just to remind you, the last people who were this obsessed with analysing and categorising peoples physical, mental and racial characteristics were the Nazi’s.
11 Aug 2010, 15:33 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-145: True, and tabletennis is very similar to rugby.
Not sure at all the point of these threads are anyway, but here is a thought:
If NZ got a large vacuum cleaner (wet and dry) and sucked up all the water between NZ and the Islands and then bred billions of people, the Maori Matrix, if you will, and fed them sheep and Tui, is it possible that they would be the best rugby team ever?
11 Aug 2010, 15:34 pm
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-124:
Right, well if the entire thing is about genetics and this debate started around the limited number of black players, can you explain what it is then about their genetics that puts them at such a disadvantage to white people when it comes to rugby?
Given that we’ve travelled far and yonder with extravagent diversions like a Maori vs Chinaman comparison?
11 Aug 2010, 15:34 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-147: Before you go into insults, do you mind naming these players you can mention in the same breath as Peter Mkata
11 Aug 2010, 15:36 pm
@ufo(ufo)-151: You are often wrong…
But it is hard for a conflicted mind (emotional vs rational) to reconsider any entrenched subjective position…
11 Aug 2010, 15:36 pm
@ultra vires(ultra vires)-152: Nope, you got it wrong. The Russians tested on ethnic groups during the cold war. The North Vietnamese probably still do. The US are underhand and I doubt they would have stopped this kind of thing just because it’s illegal.
Then there are all sorts of dodgy private groups the world over doing all sorts of things all the time.
11 Aug 2010, 15:36 pm
wtf is a Peter Mkata? is it those guys living in a tent with white faces and half a tottie? or no ..thats makweta
11 Aug 2010, 15:37 pm
The keo youth league are not going to appreciate the nasty turn this thread is taking.
Not ayoba at all.
Aynoba in fact.
I thought the tallest man in the world was Chinese.
His name is Ho So Hi..
Son on Chi So Hi.
11 Aug 2010, 15:37 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-138:
Pissant, are you seriously denying the role of genetics in a contact sport such as rugby.
The massai are genetically predisposed to be tall and lithe and the pygmies of south america are predisposed to being short.
This genetics at its purest level. Just because there are a few genetic outliers in a nation doesnt mean one has to refute its existence in society.
11 Aug 2010, 15:39 pm
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-148: Its exactly this type of ignorance that makes many white people like yourselves ill-equipped to deal with rugby issues in this country.
Now you are killing or not enhancing the debate, purely because you are too ignorant about the very sport your deem to support religiously, I can only imagine how little you know about general stuff, let alone other sports.
11 Aug 2010, 15:40 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-155: What makes you think he was the best, is this another way of holding onto a faint glimmer of something so insignificant to feel in some way that you can compete?
11 Aug 2010, 15:40 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-156:
yes… i know that…
that’s the price dof people like me have to pay… we are wrong… sometimes… all the time… but i live with it…
can you tell me something that i don’t know…?
can you tell me what it’s like to always be right…?
that’s why it gets so boring for you bud… you’re always right…
11 Aug 2010, 15:41 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-154:
The contrast is not as pronounced as the Chinese/Maori comparison, but there is still a disadvantage in terms of forwards in particular.
They did the survey a while ago, on average heights of white vs black, Indian and coloured South Africans.
The difference was signficant.
But I repeat: Why is that a negative thing? That makes them better at other things, again. Like Bantam weight boxing, soccer etc.
Why this refusal to acknowledge differences among people?
11 Aug 2010, 15:42 pm
@gunther(gunther)-159:
good one…
mind you…
took me a while…
but i got it in the end…
11 Aug 2010, 15:43 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-131: No.
A quick summary of genetics as an influencer of outcomes (whether for sports or for a high yielding plant):
P (Phenotype or Appearance / Outcome) = G (Genotype) + E (Environmental Effects) + G x E (Interaction of the two).
So, Environment (training regime) of a sportsman plays a great a part as his genetic makeup in detemining how successful (Phenotype) he is.
Think about it…
11 Aug 2010, 15:43 pm
@John Galt(John Galt)-160:
Well said. We can argue about the degree of influence, but the fact that these differences exist is obvious. To deny it seems a deliberate attempt to deny reality.
11 Aug 2010, 15:44 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-141:
Ja PA, but the sensitive thing that I’m just getting at is the spin-off of this.
There are hundreds of black boys looking to emulated what they perceive to be the boerseun rugby-attitude their style. Make it their own and enjoy the supposed counterfeit culture.
But it just isn’t the same. And white players in the lower levels simply don’t see blacks as their equals and will not have much good to say about them either (in general). In my day transformation just got kicked off. There weren’t any blacks with me in highschool, and there was only 3 blacks in the usual 22 at varsity. (actually 2 coloureds, 1 black).
And we got along just fine. But I could still see that they were up to the aggression and physical contest like the rest of us, and whenever I played against a black I always underestimated him in the sense that I knew that he never was technically sound or aggressive enough (or brave enough, whatever the hell it is that make the guy not want to go 100%- paired with skill).
That’s just how it is, and a decade on I can’t see that anythings changed.
If things are so progressive nowadays, howcome PdV and his advisors can’t even fill (hardly) the Bok team with the “magic 4″? Even the non-whites there aren’t good enough, except for Habs, Steenkamp and Aplon in way.
Who else? Anywhere. In any position.
In fact, if Heinkie was here and fit, we’d have seen him @1 instead of Gurthro most likely and GvdH is just as inexperinced as Aplon yet he’s got better all round skill. (people say he lacks heart etc. have you seen him look for work and defend lately? I say bullshit).
That leaves you with not a single black in the entire squad, only coloureds.
Now here’s the thing: WHat’s going on? What’s wrong?
hello? Is there anything wrong? Why should somthing be wrong and need drastic and immediate remediation if there isn’t “sufficient Blacks” in the squad? How mnany do we still need. And we already know it’s not done on merit. Despite the cloack they use for it- that’s how the Januaries and Raubenheimers and Roses end up at the Boks.
I think the entire situation should just be dropped and everybody can forgive everybody else, and good coaches in the new South Africa can be free to select the best talent being put forward and be at total ease to select the odd black player or two and as it gradually increases as more black players are eventually reached with the sport- if they so desire.
This way no-one gets racially discriminated against and we always field merit teams (eventhough one can never eradicate the practise of certian coaches selecting one or two favourites- but it’s only a couple and it isn’t every coach)
What do you say?
11 Aug 2010, 15:44 pm
@ufo(ufo)-163: It does get boring especially when I donate valuable insight for free…
11 Aug 2010, 15:44 pm
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-164: All people are equal in this new world Tac, except the more equal have to fork out MORE to ensure the less equal equal are equal, despite being as equal as the more equal, even if the more equal consistently prove themselves to be MORE equal than the less equal in this equal society where all are equal.
11 Aug 2010, 15:45 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-157: So you keep good company…
If I were you I wouldn’t be highlighting the fact that your corner of the world is mentioned in the same breath as North Korea, Soviet Union, Nazis etc.
They havn’t exactly gone down in history as the most popular kids on the block…
11 Aug 2010, 15:45 pm
@gunther(gunther)-159:
11 Aug 2010, 15:45 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-166: plays as great a part as his genetic
11 Aug 2010, 15:46 pm
@gunther(gunther)-159: LOL
11 Aug 2010, 15:46 pm
just read about this Peter Mkata chap ..they compare him to a Joel Stransky … definitely no Naas/lem or M Steyn
11 Aug 2010, 15:47 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-153: LOL, no, because as physically imposing as the Jerry Colins of the world appear to be, there will always be the Danie Rossouws of the world who will make them his ******.
11 Aug 2010, 15:49 pm
@ultra vires(ultra vires)-171: Oh it’s world over. In New Zealand of course we have the only example of a rugby team selected on racist lines to this day, something the Springboks were taken apart for in NZ in the 1980s.
NZ also has the NZ Maori Party, the Maori benefit, the Maori Land and Fisheries Act etc. All of course based on the notion of diving people due to specific genetic differences or similarities.
Of all the countries I have mentioned, NZ is the only one I know of that actually does all this according to race. In fact, in some areas NZ Pakeha cannot collect shellfish while NZ Maori can.
Talk about fascination with race.
11 Aug 2010, 15:50 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-168: Good post, my feathered friend. Good post.
11 Aug 2010, 15:52 pm
@John Galt(John Galt)-160:
Genetics have a role in most things in life, some even belief IQ is genetically inhereted but that is also disputed by some.
Genetics however is every changing, especially given the globalisation of humans to all parts of the world.
Genetics just amongst white people in South Africa who play rugby plays a role.
Some okes are genetically shorter than others, runs in the family type thing but it does not make them any worse rugby players, just means he wont be a lock any time soon and chances are his son won’t be either…
Genetics plays a part, but it is not the sole judge of success or non-success in rugby, not by a long shot.
11 Aug 2010, 15:53 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-143:
Who the hell is Peter Mkaba?
11 Aug 2010, 15:53 pm
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-164:
I don’t deny for one minute that different races possess different genetic attributes. Nor do I deny that certain race groups are more genetically predisposed to succeed in certain sports, which play to their strengths.
What I fail to understand is how an athletic and strong race like the Africans (think athletes around the world, Olympics, football, American football etc etc!) are deemed not to have the genetic attributes so succeed in a physical sport like rugby?
11 Aug 2010, 15:55 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-168: GvDH has “better all round skill” than Aplon – in which alternate reality. Not this subjective one, I would think…
11 Aug 2010, 15:55 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-178:
Minus the spelling and grammatical errors. I can always fall back on the fact that I’m a Dutchie and I work with numbers not words.
11 Aug 2010, 15:56 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-179: How can IQ (An index made up by humans) be genetically inherited… Think about it.
11 Aug 2010, 15:57 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-168:
I have said many times that I am a great supporter of transformation, but I am also probably its worst critic in the way it is being implemented in rugby (and society in general) at the moment.
If you are part of the game you get to see first hand how ineffective transformation negatively effects the ones it is supposed to help.
My first post on this thread is still the one I go back to and one that sums all this up for me.
From all sides, all cultures, the biggest transformation needs to happen in our minds, not in physical numbers or bean counting.
Only then will we be successful in transforming our country (and the world for that matter).
11 Aug 2010, 15:58 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-181: Its the E factor or environment, dear Watson.
11 Aug 2010, 15:58 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-181:
Because your basic assumption is wrong.
You assume that there is one African race.
Is there on European race? Of course not. Germans are different from English, from Celts, from Dutch from Serbians from Greeks from Italians etc etc.
South African “Africans” are physically VERY different from West Africans or Central Africans, who are different from East Africans.
South African “Africans” are physically smaller than their West and Central African counterparts.
Much smaller, in fact.
11 Aug 2010, 15:58 pm
I think we all agree that black people are genetically better off when it comes to sports than whities. Correct?
Why then is it taboo to suppose that whites are genetically more intelligent than black people?
Same argument surely?
11 Aug 2010, 15:58 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-182:
GvdH is faster, bigger, stronger, faster, an effective tackler, a better finisher, faster and a great kicker.
He also is basically the S14 2010 top try scorer (his ban and hammy strain). So, what does Aplon have that GvdH does’t
GvdH is a kid yes. So was Steyn and Lambie and O’Connor etc.
GvdH is more than a match for Aplon- but he just isn’t Province, now is he?
11 Aug 2010, 15:58 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-181: because and African from Ghana is not the same as an african from Kenya, is not the same as an african from East London (who by the way isn’t exactly like and African from Durban, if you get my meaning).
The Same way that 2 white nations can be different, like the Swedes and the French. Or the Dutch (tall) and the Potuguese (Shorter). Both are considered caucasian, but have marked general differences.
11 Aug 2010, 15:58 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-184:
Hey mate I am just relating what I read on the subject, it is not my view… nor am I an expert by any means.
Anycase I must be out.
Ciao.
11 Aug 2010, 15:59 pm
The amount of bullsh.yte masquerading as fact here is incredible…
A full fancy dress party…
11 Aug 2010, 16:00 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-162: Being in a very fortunate situation of being able to interact with both educated and uneducated white people and also having shared my upbringing with both black educated and uneducated, it has become clear that there is very little difference between Educated/uneducated white people and Uneducated black people when it comes to debates.
All three groups are like taxi drivers, very little substance to add in order to improve the debate, very little intellect in terms of trying to apply ones mind broadly and more importantly, they are all unmistakenly passionate.
When they cant intellectual or substantively contribute or their general ignorance is exposed, they dont bother trying to learn so as to improve and be better equipped when the same subject comes around in the future, so in essence, the information they had when they were 14yrs old, its the same information they use to approach the same issue 20yrs later.
So the same dumb points that are made by illiterate blokes at my local township tavern, I then encounter from supposedly educated white people, this would be funny if not so sad.
11 Aug 2010, 16:00 pm
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-187: Disn;t we cover all this already? we should just refer people to the appropriate posts above
And I’m told that the reason that the Greeks aren’t as successful at soccer as other European Nations, dispite their passion for the game, is that every time they get a corner they stop and open a cafe…
11 Aug 2010, 16:02 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-185:
Yes, the only way that will ever happen (and it won’t in its entirety) is if players are given equal opportunity across the board and we learn to appreciate black talent that comes through and stop seeing it as “black talent”.
That’s how it was with Habana.
Is that how it was/is with Ricky Januarie?
Hell no! Because he is kak. and thus we are constantly having our faces rubbed in reverse-discrimination.
11 Aug 2010, 16:05 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-189: Probably
better sidestep,
spatial awarness (leading to better placement of kicked ball and positioning),
10-15m acceleration at least equal,
better pass,
better offlod… etc
Anyone can come up with “objective” variables that are important for a rugby player…
Its just that Aplon has performed fairly well out of position and is an overall better player (except for kgs, that is…)
11 Aug 2010, 16:05 pm
Yeah Baby!!!!!!!!!
PE to host Boks v All Blacks
2010-08-11 14:09
Johannesburg – Next year’s Springbok Test
against New Zealand will be held in Port
Elizabeth, following a decision of the
Executive Council of the South African
Rugby Union.
The decision was taken as part of SARU’s
commitment to bring top-flight rugby to
the region. The award is conditional on
agreement that all three unions in the
Southern Kings region (Eastern Province,
Border and South Western Districts) should
benefit from the award and on agreement
on an appropriate Test match hosting
model.
It means Tri-Nations rugby will be played in
the Eastern Cape region for the first time,
while it would be the first visit of the All
Blacks to the region for 41 years (since
1970).
“There is a hunger in the region for top
flight rugby,” said Oregan Hoskins, the
president of SARU.
“Port Elizabeth now has a top flight venue
in the Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium and
SARU has a long-standing commitment to
assist in bringing top flight-rugby back to
the region. This is a tangible proof of our
commitment. ”
The 2011 Tri-Nations Test against Australia
was allocated to the KwaZulu-Natal Rugby
Union, subject to discussions with the
union.
The meeting also appointed East London
businessman Monde Tabata to the
Executive Council, joining Mike Stofile as the
second independent member and filling a
vacancy that had been open since the
elections in March.
Other decisions taken by the council
were:
• The Exco will call for tenders from all 14
provincial unions to host the South African
leg of the IRB World Sevens Series,
according to the IRB ’s criteria for host
venues.
• Applications will be sought for the
position of SA Under-20 coach and
assistant coaches to cover the 2011, 2012
and 2013 IRB Junior World Championship
competitions.
• The CEOs of all 14 unions are to be called
to a meeting for their inputs on: Vodacom
Super Rugby franchise fees and the
division of unions within franchises; the
Test match hosting model.
• The competitions committee was
instructed to formulate a proposal to assist
the Southern Kings in their preparations for
potential Vodacom Super Rugby inclusion
in 2013.
• Approval was granted for an
international sevens tournament, under the
auspices of the Leopards Rugby Union, to
be held in Rustenburg from September
24-26, 2010.
11 Aug 2010, 16:06 pm
How long before someone mentions jorrie muller?
11 Aug 2010, 16:06 pm
Spellings and “a” key are frked today
awareness
better offload
11 Aug 2010, 16:07 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-193: LOL.
I hear your point, clearly you also got exactly what I meant. Just observing what is acceptable to acknowledge vs not etc.
I am confident that a hunger for knowledge, for understanding and with it, some degree of intellectual maturity can be nurtured in people. Nurture certainly plays a part.
It’s also unfortunately true that for some, no amount of coaxing will achieve any level of understanding, there is no software installed.
I see this across all groups, on all levels. Some are naturally better, just because, and average people can be super amazing in the right environment.
Who plays where etc really has more to do with opportunities which, we can call racially based in SA, is really more about class-based oppression and lack of access to facilities, knowledge and upliftment.
It is not a black v white thing, it’s a poor vs rich thing.
How do we solve this? We would have to make everyone equal.
11 Aug 2010, 16:08 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-197: “Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium ” – fark, now thats a venue waiting to be half full for a Bok test…
11 Aug 2010, 16:12 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-196:
Hmmm… yes, but Gvdh is faster and I’d still have a specialist right-wing and GvdH is better IMO. and more than half a decade younger. And faster.
11 Aug 2010, 16:13 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-201: Half price tickets along with half payment for test leads to fuller stadium and the illusion that a S15 franchise will work there and there is money there, all while the rest of us fork out R500 for a similar test at a traditional hunting ground for rugby.
11 Aug 2010, 16:14 pm
Genetics is not a sensible argument, as much as cultures are not static, they are fluid and frequently if not always have to adapt to interaction with other cultures. South Africa is still going through a social engineering system based on the “Rainbow Nation” cultural integration principle, this naturally means that all cultures in South Africa are moving from being separate as prescribed by Verwoerd and friends, to a more melting pot unity focused society. Under quota system constructs, sport becomes a component to further integrate our cultures. Rugby is not and will never be the exclusive domain of whites, that time has ceased.
The obvious paradigm to examine is the on-the-ground system that ensures that the quota precept develops previously disadvantaged groups to a point where the merit system can be implemented in view of selections. As corrected by one of the gentlemen in the forum, “SARU” rather then “SARFU” must borne a system that inculcates rugby into our peoples way of life, this can only be achieved by a physical continued presence on the ground to involve kids in the sport and culture of rugby, genetics do not dictate one’s development of love for a sport but rather one’s appreciation for a sport that can be, when played adequately and adventurously be as great as the Gods intended.
11 Aug 2010, 16:17 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-201: LOL
11 Aug 2010, 16:17 pm
@Qudeni(Qudeni)-204: I never knew god invented rugby… heck he was quite a clever chap, you’d think he could have made simpler break down laws
Seriously, on the ground is where it needs to happen but the government isn’t interested in results it seems.
Pity.
11 Aug 2010, 16:20 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-202: Yeah, but that still doesnt make him “better all round”. Aplon should be selected as 15.
Nevertheless proven WC and BI Lions series winner, JPP, is better than both all round anyway for 14.
11 Aug 2010, 16:20 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-197: That is wonderful news! OMG! It’s gonna be packed!
People will flood from surrounding areas (Uitenhage, Despatch, Graaff Reinette, Kirkwood, Willowmore, Hankey, Humansdorp, East London, Grahamstown, Port Alfred, Jeffreys Bay to name a few and the locals will go nuts.
Not to mention the large contingent of people that adore the All Blacks.
Will be a SOLD OUT MATCH guarenteed!
11 Aug 2010, 16:21 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-203: And if they still can’t fill a stadium… ?
11 Aug 2010, 16:23 pm
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-187:
I’m not denying that.
But that generalisation is not reason enough to discount the benefits that even a small percentage of the 39,200 000 black people in this country could add to the game in South Africa.
It’s those types of numbers that dampen an argument based on generalisations.
11 Aug 2010, 16:24 pm
@rossoneri(rossoneri)-208: Yeah like there is a precedent for packed rugby games at NMBS…
Talk about sprinting before learning how to crawl…
A shy.te commercial decision by SARU…
11 Aug 2010, 16:24 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-207:
JJP if fit and kept on a tight leash, yes. Aplon I barley good enough as a Springbok wing IMO, def not a FB.
And there everyone will say “he punches above his weight” blablabla. Doesn’t matter.
11 Aug 2010, 16:25 pm
It’s akin to the assumption that God made the earth but not our political systems or rules of law. Nonetheless, I agree with you, it has to happen on the ground and now only SARU can be the decider, they are the ultimate administrators, government creates policy, and SARU administers, policy is only a framework, the real work is done on the ground. SARU needs to stand up.
11 Aug 2010, 16:25 pm
Xhosakid #193, agreed, we’re all the same hence there shouldn’t be any quota’s ne?
To genetics; interesting how many top class players have fathers who also excelled. Not easy to catch that up.
11 Aug 2010, 16:26 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-210:
Sure. 0.0000000000001%
11 Aug 2010, 16:27 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-209: HG, the last test match in PE was at the Boet Erasmus. Boks against France. If memory serves it was in 2006. (correct me people, I might be wrong).
The place went nuts. Traffic went crazy, people had travelled from farming areas in bakkies and caravans. The City was on some big party!
Now imagine it being the freaking All Blacks! That’s x100!
11 Aug 2010, 16:27 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-195: this is another illustration of myopia syndrome inherent in your average rugby punter, You mention Habana and contrast him with Ricky January, now a question to you, since when did Ricky become “quota”, will Habana also be “quota” when he loses form like Smit, Spies.
The jist here, is simply in your limited understanding Ricky is “quota” because he is **** now and there are better players than him, yet when he single-handely won the test against the AB, he was not “quota”, so when did he become “quota”?
11 Aug 2010, 16:27 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-212: Naah man, you must be whackhead simpson…
JPP has proven ability at test level,
Aplon has not disappointed at test level (and out of position)
Has GvdH? He needs to get in line…
11 Aug 2010, 16:28 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-209: They won’t will they and we all know it;
11 Aug 2010, 16:28 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-211: You know nothing HG. We’ll just have to show you when the time comes. Get ready to vreet your humble pie.
11 Aug 2010, 16:28 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-211: blah blah blah…all i hear is kak outtaa ya lips
the eastern cape is part of SA, no monopoly hear ol codger! Get over yourself.
11 Aug 2010, 16:30 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-211: You’re just jealous!
11 Aug 2010, 16:31 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-221: The sick part is that EC has never EVER, had a trinations fixture. Fark me, surely its time!
11 Aug 2010, 16:32 pm
@rossoneri(rossoneri)-216: I just remember the Kings vs BI Lions and that wasn’t packed…
Now you might say “but that wasnt a test” to which the reply would be “but the Kings are supposedly the franchise that reflects EC aspirations in rugby whether CC or Super rugby”.
You also might say that “the BI Lions are not the ABs” and the reply might be “so a team comes around only once every 12 years and the response is not to fill a stadium”.
The only valid reason would be if the ticket prices for the BI Lions were as extortionate for an SA market as those at other stadiums eg. Kings Park…
11 Aug 2010, 16:33 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-217:
I never insinuated that. Let me help you out: Ricky was never good enough in the light of other scrumhalves available- as is the situation now. Ricky isn’t even in the top 10 scrummies.
You know, for a bunch of whining WP supporters who long for Allister to be national coach, you sure don’t care much about Allister’s preferences. Duvenhage is better than Ricky-OK?
So why isn’t he there? See?
11 Aug 2010, 16:34 pm
@rossoneri(rossoneri)-223: Yeah why not. I’m going to make an excuse to see some clients there and have a jol. I love PE. The traffic is nonexistant and the people are great.
11 Aug 2010, 16:35 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-224: Are you farking nuts. That match broke the record in SA for the largest attendance in the history of the country for a mid week non test fixture!
11 Aug 2010, 16:35 pm
@rossoneri(rossoneri)-223: Why? The Chatham Islands are part of New Zealand and also the first land on earth to see the sun each day. For the life of me I don’t recall a test match being played there either.
11 Aug 2010, 16:36 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-226: True. The people are great and rugby mad I promise you.
11 Aug 2010, 16:37 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-218:
Nahh, I said he was good enough, if he doesn’t underperform like he has been since the start of 2008.
11 Aug 2010, 16:38 pm
@rossoneri(rossoneri)-227: At 100 bucks a ticket as opposed to 275 everywhere else I’m not surprised.
11 Aug 2010, 16:38 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-224: No ground was full for a midweek fixture.
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-225: White fancied him enough to pick him in 2 world cup winning squads. He might be kak this season, but around 2008 he was bloody good. Last test of that year at Twickenham he was superb.
11 Aug 2010, 16:38 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-228: Like it or not. EC is part of SA.
11 Aug 2010, 16:40 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-231: It was not R100.00. Jy lieg net. I was there.
If you can’t stand the watch the rugby, then switch off your TV and piss off. The rest of the country will enjoy the test and the people of the EC will love it!
11 Aug 2010, 16:42 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-230: At least you know with both and with JPP its a definite benchmark – he is on his way back to attaining that by evidence of his CC games…
GvdH – we don’t know yet. All we do know is his propensity to get sent off. He will have his turn but not now.
11 Aug 2010, 16:42 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-217:
All black rugby players are quotas! when Butana Khompela starts bleating about the racial make of the Bok team, SARU counts Bryan Habana, Gurthro Steenkamp, Gio Aplon, Juan De Jongh, Ricky Januarie, JP Pietersen and Chilliboy Relepelle (just in case they ask, why there isn’t any black african in the team).
Doesn’t matter they are world cup winners, multiple sl4 winners, IRB player of the year, u19 player of the year… they are seen as such by the very organisation that is supposed to develop the game in previously disadvantaged communities… Because if SARU were really interested in transformation, then they would’ve awarded the then Spears the opportunity to compete in the s14 in 2007, surely they have done no worse then what the Lions are currently doing.
11 Aug 2010, 16:43 pm
@gecko(gecko)-232: See my comment re extortionate pricing…
11 Aug 2010, 16:43 pm
@rossoneri(rossoneri)-233: Not the point. As I said so are the Chatham Islands in NZ part of NZ. Stewart Island too. Perhaps Tasmania deserves a Super Franchise?
What about Marion Island in SA, it’s also part of the country, and about as far south as Invercargil. Maybe MArion Island should get the next test match. Like it or not, it is part of SA.
Chump
11 Aug 2010, 16:44 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-189: And Aplon is not at the Bulls, is he?
11 Aug 2010, 16:45 pm
@rossoneri(rossoneri)-227: Was that for a BI Lions tour because if it is, then your stats are “farking nuts”, as I can remember many a midweek game with packed stadia… Was the NMBS packed?
11 Aug 2010, 16:45 pm
@gecko(gecko)-232:
Ja I disagree but ok.
11 Aug 2010, 16:45 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-94: Spot on! 100% agree.
11 Aug 2010, 16:46 pm
@Couchcoach(GI POT)-239:
No, he’s at the Bullshitters.
11 Aug 2010, 16:46 pm
@rossoneri(rossoneri)-234: Actually to be honest, the rate at which the Boks are deteriorating under die Groot Snor I may as well not watch next year.
Besides, it has nothing to do with rugby, but rather where.
How much were your mid week tickets? Mine were 275 I think but I got a test and midweek in Durban for 1100.
In your neck of the woods many many tickets were given away. I know this as fact. I know too that SARU then spun a story about being a packed stadium, all because the chumps were bussed in, FREE.
11 Aug 2010, 16:48 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-235:
Ja, I was really impressed with his comeback, I wasn’t expecting that. JJP might just be hungry enough.
11 Aug 2010, 16:49 pm
@mxhosa(mxhosa)-236: You have a point about the Spears/Lions… lions under Muir like Boks under Muir… useless.
Only problem with KingSpears is Watson
11 Aug 2010, 16:51 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-244: “Mine were 275 I think but I got a test and midweek in Durban for 1100.
In your neck of the woods many many tickets were given away. I know this as fact. I know too that SARU then spun a story about being a packed stadium, all because the chumps were bussed in, FREE.”
Interesting. I think much BS is spun regarding this “huge” demand for Rugby in the EC…
Demand would drive prices if there are low prices in the EC then it follows that…
But then again other Stadia take the mickey out of what SA supporters are willing to pay…
11 Aug 2010, 16:52 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-245: That he may be… all in time for the EOYT…
I maintain that is the actual goal of the Boks this year – a Grandslam rather than the 3N (a holding pattern)…
11 Aug 2010, 16:53 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-224: read & weep
Southern Kings: T Mangweni; W Human (M
Stick 53), F Welsh (B Fortuin 7), D Wet Barry,
M Turner; J van der Westhuyzen, F Hougaard
(J Fowles 42); J Engels, D Kuun, R Vermeulen
(D Greyling 8), M Wentzel, R Skeate, M
Mbiyozo, S Tyibilika, D Nell.
Try: M Mbiyozo.
Pen: J van der Westhuyzen.
British and Irish Lions: K Earls (Ireland); U
Monye (England), R Flutey (England), G
D’Arcy (Ireland), L Fitzgerald (Ireland); J Hook
(Wales), M Blair (Scotland); A Sheridan
(England), R Ford (Scotland), E Murray
(Scotland), S Shaw (England), D O’Callaghan
(Ireland, capt), N Hines (Scotland), J Worsley
(England), A Powell (Wales).
Subs: A Jones (Wales) 7 for Murray; R O’Gara
(Ireland) 13 for Hook; S Williams (Wales) 65
for Monye; M Rees (Wales) 65 for Ford.
Tries: U Monye, penalty try.
Cons: R O’Gara (2).
Pens: R O’Gara (2)
Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Attendance: 35,852
11 Aug 2010, 16:54 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-247: No that’s not how it works. SARU demand a fee from the host Unions, from 5- 6 million. For a test.
What did the EC have to pay? R1 million. How come? Why the difference? SARU loses there but expects the Sharks and all others to cover the bill.
11 Aug 2010, 16:55 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-249: Total income R1.52
11 Aug 2010, 16:56 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-250: I think you misunderstand my comment. But I agree – truly a fark up with the payments it seems…
11 Aug 2010, 16:56 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-248:
on top of that, we won’t win next year’s Tri Nations either considering our rest routine as opposed to the ABs and Wallabies.
Thus PdV is shaping up to have a worse record than Jake White.
11 Aug 2010, 16:57 pm
This is great news for the eastern Cape.
My happiness is tinged with melancholy though.
Now that Lilith is going to be up close and personal with dan and ritchie….
Does that mean that the writing is on the wall for Transie?
I hope not. They are my favorite keo couple.
Apart from grantie and jr.
Obviously.
Oh and skop and his split personality.
Ok they are my third fave keo couple.
11 Aug 2010, 16:57 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-249: 36000 is capacity…????
11 Aug 2010, 16:58 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-253: And I maintain that the WC is what really counts…
as the saying goes:
“Judge him on the WC” – fark the rest… (He has a bonus of a series win against the BI Lions anyway)
11 Aug 2010, 16:59 pm
Were any of the Lions matches sell outs?
11 Aug 2010, 16:59 pm
@gunther(gunther)-254: LOL tidal wave….TSUNAMI LOL
11 Aug 2010, 17:00 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-252: So they make it cheaper and yet SARU needs the cash to bring the game and the workshops/clinics etc to the kids, which I am 100% behind.
So where do they get the money from for all this? The 95 000 yearly test at the National Stadium at R600 and raping the other Unions to host a test. To foster a Union in an area with 3.5 people and R2.75 in change and chappies.
Excellent
11 Aug 2010, 17:01 pm
@racheltjiedebeer(racheltjiedebeer)-257: Lions Matches LOL ha ha ha get it
11 Aug 2010, 17:02 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-259: My first comment about this – “a shy.te commercial decision by SARU”… It is just stupid.
11 Aug 2010, 17:03 pm
South Africa’s two world cup winning coaches Kristie and White, and Mallet being the most successful in terms of winning consecutive games, Macintosh also did ok !!
Common denominator ……..all English !!!!! , so by some narrow minded bloggers reasoning I can determine that English speaking SA’s must be more intelligent than Afrikaans speaking SA’s ????? Genetic’s ???
Afrikaans coaches had very little success !!!
What a load of c rap !!!!!!!
Contrary to the belief and hope of some bloggers on here, there are plenty of black players out there with the passion and physical ability to play the game at the highest level…………….the process is just really starting to kick in !!!!
11 Aug 2010, 17:03 pm
lets just face facts all those clinging to white supremacy in rugby are farked, its a melodramatic hope in hell going out the window at a rate of knots, hang on as tight as your quota bashing principles can but you going down in a heap of twisted ideology into the same dust as you rode in on on the Esmeralda.
White pure blood lines are a thing of the past, I give you maximum another 3 – 4 generations and its all a shade of gray or brown, but pure white hereditary supremacy in this sport (read religion) of the colonialist super races is basically already consigned to the history books as we speak.
11 Aug 2010, 17:05 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-261: SARU is known for genius decisions…
The smaller Unions holding the larger ones to ransom… The SANZAR agreement. The S14 schedule agreements, the EOYT schedule. The mid year away test. (WTF)
The appointment of the coach, the ability for the sports’ minister to poke his nose in etc etc
11 Aug 2010, 17:06 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-256:
Those players wanted the BIL, they waited their entire career for that- it basically had nothing to do with PdV except that he was fortunate enough to be gifted the job and that he almost lost it for us. Imagine Heyneke Meyer with 3 Tri Nations titles and a BIL.
11 Aug 2010, 17:06 pm
@justrugby(justrugby)-262: Good point JR.
Jeez there must be something wrong in CT water supply today… Unless you are hammered from some Paarl plonk.
Nevertheless I find myself agreeing with your post.
Except the maoist tendency at the end: “the process is just really starting to kick in “…
A spoiler but no-one is perfect
11 Aug 2010, 17:08 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-265: Heynecke Meyer does not have the genetic makeup to be successful Bok coach
11 Aug 2010, 17:10 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-264: Yup, the committee men. Those “professional” heads of Unions…
11 Aug 2010, 17:10 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-225: I have said in my own words that Ricky is currently ****,like Smit and Spies,there are probably better club scrumhalves than “The Ricster” at the moment, like Smit and Spies, there are better club players than them, I must add that, “currently” being the operative word.
Now I ask you,again,
1. When did Ricky become a “quota” ?
2. Was he always a “quota”?, here refer to all his test caps
3. Will you also call Habana a quota if/when he loses his form like the three guys.?
I’m sure other people would be interested in your response.
11 Aug 2010, 17:10 pm
Its true JR, English speaking coaches are way a cut above their Afrikaans counterparts, just check the intelligence levels of White vs Streauli, and then White couldn’t coach for toffee apples till he got a half bred Japanese crossed with a sheep shagging convict to come teach him the ropes.
So bottom line facts are that the more intermingled your blood lines are the better coach and higher level of intelligence you got.
Equation goes like this, pure bred Caucasian of Dutch/German descent rugby intelligence < mixed bred Anglo Saxon cross < multi breed of Asian/Convict/Irish/Japanese
So when we get to the eventual strains of cross bred society the Baster will obviously have best of all worlds flowing through his veins.
11 Aug 2010, 17:10 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-267:
LOL:)
11 Aug 2010, 17:12 pm
@skopskiet(yliad)-270:
Makes sense to me !!!! LOL
11 Aug 2010, 17:14 pm
@skopskiet(yliad)-270: With canines they say that mongrels are a hardy type… I tend to think their phenotype is buttugly and many are downright dof…
So much for the brak…
11 Aug 2010, 17:14 pm
@skopskiet(yliad)-263: It’s never been about colour dear Skop, it’s always been about class, didn’t they tell you that?
Class and money to a lesser extent are the real separators. You see whilst people like Rooney and Oprah etc have money, they have little class. They are rich, their kids can go to the right schools, but they are not from the same stock you see. One will always hide the silverware from that kind.
It’s like being American, I mean, an American is human I guess, but one doesn’t really want them to dinner does one?
11 Aug 2010, 17:15 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-274: LOL. Teeheehee
11 Aug 2010, 17:18 pm
@gunther(gunther)-254: I kinda had Grant10 paired with Rangerman. Kind of like Archie and Edith Bunker. Or My Roper and his nutcase wife in 3′s company.
11 Aug 2010, 17:19 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-269: The quota thing is silly IMHO:
Ricky is and always has been a quota, one of very few proper quota players. He had one lucky bounce in one game. Chiliboy also hasn’t shown, at Open Age Group level, the kind of consistency that guarantees his place in the team.
Habana was a great player as have been most Bok players all the way through. The few ‘quota’ players have a negative impact on all the others there on merit.
The only other obvious quota player is Rose, 99% can agree with that.
11 Aug 2010, 17:19 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-276: LOL… Kissing cousins???
11 Aug 2010, 17:20 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-269: The Boks are a unique team with one place always kept spare for… the warthog.
11 Aug 2010, 17:21 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-269:
No, everyone loses form, why do you think they retire?
Ricky was always not good enough considering his competion for the spot, as I mentioned. I won’t go attaching the meaningless (in this “discussion”) quota tag to him.
Habs? What of him? He’s just good enough for the squad. What’s the problem?
I don’t throw him into an eventual category as he ages due to his skin colour.
11 Aug 2010, 17:21 pm
if its world cup success stories you after then who actually carries the crown?
Dwyer
Christie
McQueen
Woodward
White
???
so there you have the pickings of the successful coaches in WC rugby intelligence
Who got the intelligence to coach, not a Kiwi or a boerseun in sight.
11 Aug 2010, 17:23 pm
Rugby V Soccer:
Not sure I quite understand here BUT from an average kids’ perspective
1. All my friends play soccer.
2. My family is soccer mental.
3. The SABC which I watch shows soccer.
4. It’s quite rare to break your neck playing soccer.
5. There is a shed load more money in soccer.
6. I love soccer.
7. I understand soccer.
8. I like to play soccer.
9. I can play soccer anywhere.
WTF would I want to play rugby, earn less and break my neck?
11 Aug 2010, 17:23 pm
@skopskiet(yliad)-281: “Who got the intelligence to coach, not a Kiwi or a boerseun in sight.”
LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL – choking to death
11 Aug 2010, 17:24 pm
@skopskiet(yliad)-281: I am nearly dead…. LOL
11 Aug 2010, 17:25 pm
@skopskiet(yliad)-281: They all seem English, which makes sense, I am of English descent and boy am I clever.
11 Aug 2010, 17:27 pm
Stormersboy
Kind of like ted danson and whoopi?
11 Aug 2010, 17:27 pm
@gunther(gunther)-254:
don’t worry about me Gunman!
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-255: no 48 459 is the capacity of the NMBS
Lions limp past Kings
The Lions produced an ordinary showing in
downing the Southern Kings 20-8 in Port
Elizabeth.
The expectant crowd of over 35 000 – the
largest on tour to date – were left
disappointed as the Kings dominated large
periods of the first half and entered the
break with the scores level at 3-3. The gulf
in class eventually showed, but Ian
McGeechan will be far from pleased.
11 Aug 2010, 17:28 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-287: So it wasn’t a sell-out then.
11 Aug 2010, 17:30 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-287: See goyougoodthings interesting insights – gives a bit of a different slant on things…
11 Aug 2010, 17:30 pm
Should say White/Jones cos it was a tweeling affair that did the deed, White alone would have crumbled against Tonga and/or Fiji, was actually that half bred Irish/Convict/Japanese that pulled him though.
***** Disdain – the world is going baster brakish old boy, the upper crust Pom is a dead breed, so too is the pure bred European colonialist, and its true, you in the genetics business should know already the more you mix the blood lines the hardier and more resilient they become, the purer you try keep them the more insipid and putrefied they degenerate.
So answer to the riddle is mix n match breeds as fast as you can, that way you stand a better chance to sustain human survival against the odds of nature, the pure breeds of nature are on the extinct list, its the basters that are lining up for the crown.
11 Aug 2010, 17:32 pm
The overall impression from the comments here that I’m getting is that P0C’s have added zero contribution to bok rugby. And that the geneticists out there would rather see a team chosen only from white Afrikaans stock. Enough with the innuendos already.
11 Aug 2010, 17:32 pm
I thought jake’s real name was Jacobus Westerluin?
11 Aug 2010, 17:34 pm
@skopskiet(yliad)-290: But if we go by genetic theory then you should know heterosis only works for progeny if the two parents are so genetically pure as to be inbred…
So, Kickshot, not enough inbreds involved for your “theory” to be valid
11 Aug 2010, 17:34 pm
Sometimes mixing breeds can be good, sometimes bad. Haemophilia comes from interbreeding, so does brain damage.
But you can also breed a donkey and horse and end up with a mule…
Now I’m not saying what makes what but imagine a race that was:
1. Arrogant
2. Aggressive
3. Lazy
4. Stupid
5. Can’t handle their alcohol
11 Aug 2010, 17:34 pm
@gunther(gunther)-292: An inconvenient truth…
11 Aug 2010, 17:35 pm
@gunther(gunther)-254: “Oh and skop and his split personality.
Ok they are my third fave keo couple”.
I think Skops is more promiscuous than you think, my sense is he sleeps with all his multiple personalities and does not mate for life.
You are my favorite lady on Keo. By the way. I would take you on a date to La Perla any night.
11 Aug 2010, 17:36 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-293: It is possible for Dwyer though…?
11 Aug 2010, 17:39 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-294:
Yes…yes…go on, I’m picturing it…
11 Aug 2010, 17:40 pm
Ja Jakey is in actual fact a Rocky with Anglo Saxon wannabee genes, thats why he been clambering for Her Majesty’s RFU job since even before he got the Bokkie one. He always thought a Sir Jake would be a fitting tribute to his immense rugby acumen.
Only problem that before the mixed bred Jones came along old Jakey was up the creek with only half a paddle, and he knew it oh only too well. Hence moral of the story, when in doubt, reach out for a half breed (long as they got ome high class education) they gonna save your plucky highfalutin low bred @ss every time.
11 Aug 2010, 17:41 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-274:
Quite apt!
11 Aug 2010, 17:41 pm
@King Shaka(zulu shark)-291:
I wouldn’t say zero contribution…negative maybe.
11 Aug 2010, 17:43 pm
@skopskiet(yliad)-270: Legendary prose.
11 Aug 2010, 17:44 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-277: since when did you start following Ricky January’s career?
11 Aug 2010, 17:45 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-276: Nah Rangerman and Black Panther. That’s why he’s called Rangerman.
11 Aug 2010, 17:46 pm
@gunther(gunther)-286: haha i think I just threw up a little in my mouth….
11 Aug 2010, 18:14 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-294: @Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-298:
Reminds me of:
…..
.
.
.
.
.
one…
….
Richard Muir LOL
11 Aug 2010, 18:15 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-303:
11 Aug 2010, 18:24 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-306:
teeheehee
11 Aug 2010, 18:36 pm
@SodaJoe(SodaJoe)-296:
no problem soda…
a **** is out of the question though….
11 Aug 2010, 18:36 pm
Soccer City will continue to be called the FNB
Stadium, the High Court in Johannesburg
ruled on Wednesday.
The court upheld the bank’s naming rights,
First National Bank spokesman Derek
Carstens said in a statement.
“The bank is pleased with this outcome and
will continue with its promotional and other
programmes bearing the name FNB
Stadium.”
The financial institution had taken National
Stadiums, which manages Soccer City, to
court to prevent it from changing the name
of the stadium, outside Soweto in
Johannesburg.
Wednesday’s judgment meant promotional
materials and tickets would now refer to the
stadium as “FNB Stadium” and not Soccer
City.
FNB’s lawyer PF Louw argued in court last
week that FNB had the right to the name of
the stadium until 2014.
The stadium was completed in 1988 and
owned by FNB. As part of preparations for
the 2010 World Cup, the institution gave up
its ownership of the stadium and
transferred it to the City of Johannesburg.
Carstens said the bank, in compliance with
Fifa requirements, agreed that the name
and/or logo of the stadium be changed for
a period starting three months before the
soccer world cup opening match, and
ending a week after the last match.
11 Aug 2010, 21:23 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-192:
As amply manifested in this session of yours, you have ingloriously, with your perculiar version thereof, contributed to that body of utter garbage.
The irony is that once in a blue moon you come up with a gem of an exposure as aptly demonstrated by this exposure of PA wrt the questionable IQ notion.
Note the total lie of an answer by PA to your question which obviously stumped him and in the process revealed his ignorance.
11 Aug 2010, 21:30 pm
@ET(ET)-311: ET tu, ET.
Your issues are not mine, plainly…
Please highlight any deviation of HG’s comments from the ET version of the truth…
11 Aug 2010, 21:41 pm
@ET(ET)-311: Echoes…
11 Aug 2010, 21:46 pm
How to clear the room…
11 Aug 2010, 22:33 pm
” The general consensus was that all eight players of colour had been selected on merit.”
Grant, let me tell you this:
You are either kidding yourself
Or
The Keos are under a decree to write that outragous nonsense!
Do you truly believe in what you write? I bet you don’t
11 Aug 2010, 22:56 pm
@Hondo(Hondo)-315: lol Ed Zachery….
11 Aug 2010, 23:58 pm
@grant10(grant10)-46: Only non-whites can be quotas.
The likes of Khompela et al are not auditing the number of white men in the team, so the only way any and every white player makes the team is on merit alone.
You and I may dispute a white player’s merit as deemed by the selectors, but they decided he has the merit to make the team, and their judgement is all that matters.
All non-white players are counted as contributing to the minimum race quota. It really doesn’t matter if they are good enough to be there purely on merit or not, or if they’re only there because they’re needed to fill the race quota. ALL of them are “quotas”.
If that hurts their feelings — it’s too bad, isn’t it? They just aren’t going to be told “you’re in the team on merit” or “you’re here to help fill the quota”. Tact and team motivation sees to that.
But whites are never quotas; non-whites are always quotas.
Until the day breaks when ALL race-quotas are scrapped, that sorry state of affairs will remain.
12 Aug 2010, 00:07 am
Grant … You and Simon should get together and have a chat sometime. He doesn’t seem to think there are black players in the Eastern Cape.
But then again, he believes they should just miraculously appear at EP senior level for Currie Cup and Super 15 inclusion.
12 Aug 2010, 00:34 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-124: this is incorrect tacitus, if 1 billion chinese people played the game and took it seriously there’s little doubt in my mind they’d be world champions. Japan aren’t even bad and there’s a fraction of those player numbers.
12 Aug 2010, 00:49 am
@Big Hit(Big Hit)-319: Japan are rubbish, and get beaten 100-0 regularly.
12 Aug 2010, 01:00 am
@Big Hit(Big Hit)-319:
even the worst student in math.stats 101 would have to agree.
12 Aug 2010, 01:12 am
not sure why everyone is taking the micky of of the ec?
it has some good areas on the coast.
ok, the locals are a little odd and appear inbred (and perhaps they are given the lack of migration into the area) but generally they act towards visitors in a friendly manner.
except, of course, those degenerates from a peculiar area near the airport called forest something or other (mind you there is no sign of a forest within 100kms).
the other strange part of pe is “north end” – the last outpost of eugene’s progeny living outside of oranje.
apparently it is the same area where the new super stadium is located.
should be an interesting crowd at the first 3n game in a million years
12 Aug 2010, 02:11 am
@ET(ET)-311:
You could learn a lot from PA’s postings… then maybe not!
12 Aug 2010, 02:12 am
@TheTackler(TheTackler)-317:
Some just don’t get it… it’s not rocket science…
12 Aug 2010, 04:15 am
@charo(charo)-321: A billion Indians and how many Olympic golds do they ever produce?
12 Aug 2010, 04:27 am
The cream will rise to the top. An excellent player who loses out to be picked for the Craven Week because of quotas must not lose heart. Keep on playing and come through the club system like many did before. If you`re good enough you will play. If not in SA then overseas. The poor results at recent junior world cups show that once prestigeous tournaments like the Craven Week has lost it`s glamour and that the best players were not selected.
12 Aug 2010, 05:27 am
@TheTackler(TheTackler)-320:
By North Harbour nogal…………
12 Aug 2010, 15:43 pm
Quotas are the least of the problem.
A more pernicious problem is that there is no system to do due diligence on selections that are made. How do we know if the Qriquas Craven week side is the best available and that the selections were fair and reasonable. Were the selectors influenced in any way?
This is fundamental in that we lose a lot of talented youngsters by not identifying them early enough and developing them or because they become despondant and quit.
There need to be checks and balances in place to ensure that our most precious resource is optimally managed. For instance, at Craven week level, the selectors have to provide detailed feedback about the top 8 or 10 players in each position and provide good explanations why they selected who they did. They need to justify their selections objectively.
Consider that if there are 20 teams at Craven week of 22 players and detailed data is kept on 10 in each spot, each year detailed information on 3000 players will be collected. this will grow into a fantastic database which we can exploit in numerous ways, such as establishing good base lines for comparison etc. if done well, this would be our biggest asset in a few years.
Obviously then, corruption in selection will be mercilessly rooted out!
12 Aug 2010, 15:51 pm
@charo(charo)-322: hahaha you can talk kak ‘forest hill’ and the plek that is the last outpost for eugene’s progeny is ‘algoa park’! yessus, there you see all sorts of home engineered cars!
13 Aug 2010, 06:07 am
@TheTackler(TheTackler)-317: I dont agree with you much, but in this I do.
While you have focus on sub issues, and less focus on the best performance, you will not get the best performance.
13 Aug 2010, 06:21 am
@skopskiet(yliad)-299: SO I guess that, since Jake was up the creek without a paddle on attack, and because he needed additional input from Eddie, that makes him a bad coach. Kind of like Snor needs a defence coach like Nienaber?
Hell, maybe Snor is more Afrikaner than you think Skop?
14 Aug 2010, 14:52 pm
You can chop down a 100 year old tree in less than a day. This doesn’t mean it can grow back in the same time you took to destroy it.
To understand this one needs to look at the 30 years of Apartheid law as the chopping down process….
14 Aug 2010, 14:56 pm
@Bell(Bell)-332: Really, that is all there is to it…
So when the chaps arrived in 1600 what did they find? Locals in big cities with lights, water, rugby and cars? No, they found guys sitting around doing very little. Since then not much has changed. Apartheid only lasted 30 years, the chaps have been here for 100 000 years.
14 Aug 2010, 15:11 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-333: you missing the point, the rugby talent that were excluded were not only of the natives of south africa, they included everyone that was non-white.
After the dutch landed, like any nation, people developed seperate communities – some with strong rugby clutures. People settled in different places. E.G: Why is there a moslem cemetry and mosques in Constantia, Claremont main road etc? Easy – quite alot of the land was non-white owned. Before Apartheid law, there were newspapers printed in african languages with african editors. There were non-white lawyers, doctors etc etc
In any event, the apartheid laws starting being introduced from 1948 already to obviously stop the influence of “inferior” people on their country.
Besides – the people who landed here in the 1600′s were dutch, they don’t caremuch for Rugby as a priority sport. They did well in the FIFA world cup though. The British brought rugby when they arrived, a little while later.
14 Aug 2010, 15:16 pm
…and when they brought rugby… the ducth received at the same time as the malay slaves and coloured inhabitants of SA… makes one think…
14 Aug 2010, 15:17 pm
and of course… the black and french inhabitants as well…
14 Aug 2010, 15:26 pm
@Bell(Bell)-334: The irony of Apartheid…
They introduced it I guess to keep control for their children etc. To oppress people, just normal everyday people who, at the time were fairly rural still. Like many areas of the world, nothing wrong with that.
Fast forward and the rest of the world developed, SA citizens didn’t due to laws and they act and behave in a way the regime feels is not appropriate. No infrastructure occurred, not much education.
Come election time the people don’t understand what democracy really means, and 16 years later still don’t. The country going to ruin because of the legacy of a system designed to keep the very people they call ignorant, ignorant.
Certainly not one of Africa’s proudest moments. Mind you, there haven’t been many.
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