EP Kings have Solly to thank
25 Oct 2010
MARK KEOHANE, in his weekly Business Day column, says Alan Solomons has maximised his resources in Port Elizabeth.
It is no exaggeration to emphasise the importance of the Eastern Province Kings beating the Pumas and playing in next year’s Currie Cup Premier Division. It is also no exaggeration to emphasise the contribution of Kings director of rugby and head coach Alan Solomons in making this all possible.
Solomons, in a season, has done what the politicians and the rugby administrators have been speaking about for the past five years, which is to turn Eastern Province into a rugby region once again.
There were no pre-season promises from Solomons that in 2011 Eastern Province would again be among the top eight premier domestic sides in South Africa. There was no handout from South African rugby in the form of a restructured Currie Cup competition that accommodated the Eastern Cape by way of Eastern Province. There was no treasure chest, filled with cash to buy the best players and buy a winning culture.
All Solomons enjoyed, by way of luxury, was his passion, that of provincial president Cheeky Watson and the warrior spirit of De Wet Barry to lead a bunch of wannabes and could have beens.
Solomons, like he did when he was at UCT, Western Province and Ulster, relied on passion and a work ethic that has never failed and never ceased to amaze those around him.
Many class players have promised Solomons they will sign with the Kings when the side’s Super Rugby participation is guaranteed, which is supposedly 2013, but understandably none were prepared to sign for a team in the First Division and more familiar with a wooden spoon than the silver spoon.
Eastern Province rugby has been a mess for some time. Administratively it has been a jungle that has attracted every sort. Watson has restored integrity to the boardroom in the province but all that restores respect to a team is consistently positive results.
Not only did Solomons have to battle cynicism and the stench of mediocrity, but he had to build a winning culture with players who will be lucky to make it to Super Rugby because their talent doesn’t match their enthusiasm.
The result has been as remarkable as the 36-all away draw to the Pumas in the first of two promotion-relegation matches; the very same Pumas who went to Coca Cola Park (Ellis Park to the traditionalists) a fortnight ago and whipped John Mitchell’s hyped Lions.
Mitchell has rightly been praised for finding the occasional roar in the Lions this year, but seven wins from 14 is a telling statistic that demands acknowledgement and therefore perspective.
Solomons’ effort also demands perspective and the kind of acknowledgement that has always been denied him in South African rugby.
Solomons is not popular among South African rugby administrators because he is intelligent, hard working and has never suffered a fool. When involved with Western Province and the Springboks (as Nick Mallett’s assistant in 1997 and 1998) he encountered many fools and never excused their incompetence. He was vocal in his criticism and refused to play the political game of politeness.
In Watson he has found an ally and comfort that having an opinion is a good thing and exercising one’s right to think is even better. He has a provincial president who enjoys an intelligent coach and promotes the value of debate.
Solomons challenges any stereotype and his urgency and intensity scares more people than it seduces, but he has an ability to maximise any resource and the one thing he has always had is loyalty from players.
Barry, a WP and Solomons favourite 10 years ago, is an example of this loyalty, but those players who are close to Solomons will also tell you that they know they have Solomons’ loyalty, which is why he so often gets a return on his player investments.
Solomons is a sporting cliche because so much of what he does is based on the principle that a close team is a successful one – and there’s nothing wrong with sporting cliche that make us smile.
Eastern Province rugby is a point away from reaching the point from which there should never be a return to the sort of mediocrity Solomons inherited.
Never has a play-off promotion match mattered so much to South African rugby because an EP victory will be so much more than a win on the rugby field.
And for that Alan Solomons, Cheeky Watson and De Wet Barry can never be thanked enough.
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245 Comments
25 Oct 2010, 11:05 am
Grateful Dragons?
25 Oct 2010, 11:06 am
Nice one Keo, and good to see you praise the work Watson did behind the scenes too.
Best of luck to the Kings.
25 Oct 2010, 11:07 am
But as far as promotion/relegation play-off matches go, what a complete waste.
If you end top, and end bottom, you get promoted or relegated. Why they have to go into a play-off situation is beyond me.
25 Oct 2010, 11:13 am
but if they lose…it’s back to square one, and hand out’s and free rides demanded, isn’t it?
25 Oct 2010, 11:18 am
nice piece Keo!!
25 Oct 2010, 11:19 am
@Brigadier Van Zyl(Brigadier Van Zyl)-4: the stench of cynicism & mediocrity in this post is nauseating…
25 Oct 2010, 11:26 am
You have to feel for the Pumas. I think that must have been the best season by a team other than the usual suspects (and well done to Griquas to being included in that) in a very very long time. I am not sure if I want the Kings to go through at all costs.
And yes EP did play well, but amount of mercenaries in that team is a bit worrying. Ok, guess you can say that once they are competing and getting funds the talent will start to come through from the bottom.
25 Oct 2010, 11:27 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-3: I reckon this system is better than straight promotion / relegation. It still makes sure that the better sides play as there can be a huge gap between the two divisions.
Also after a couple of games next year, nobody can turn around and say the Pumas deserved to stay (thats if the Kings do the business this weekend).
25 Oct 2010, 11:28 am
@wpjoulekkading(wpjoulekkading)-7: The usual suspects are full of Eastern Cape players but that is just fine hey.
25 Oct 2010, 11:29 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-3: Agreed, the Leopards and Pumas didn’t use their opportunities. Time to go.
It’t will be great to have an EP side back in the Currie Cup. Hope they can finish of the Pumas next week.
On the other side it would be nice to see how the Pumas can develop if they do move to Nelspruit (with the beautifull Mbombela Stadium.) It will be a way more attractive option for prospective players than Witbank.
The people are hungry for rugby in Nelspruit. In the 2 games against the Bulls and WP there were around 20 000 people each time around.
25 Oct 2010, 11:31 am
@kevin w(kevin w)-9: Fair enough, and that was what I was saying, if they are succesful I guess the talent will stay put and maybe also come back. But for me there is a little bit of a mismatch at the moment between the EP team that is being marketed and the team that jogs and onto the field.
25 Oct 2010, 11:31 am
@kevin w(kevin w)-8:
It creates a silly situation though.
Both the Kings and SWD cares more about being promoted, than winning the first division title – which both teams contested for last weekend.
So you have a situation where coaches will rest their top players in a semi or final, in order to play their best in the promo-relegation affair as financially, it means more to the union.
Similarly, the premier division teams more or less know 2 or 3 weeks in advance who will end bottom, so for the last 3 or so round robin games in the premier division, they also experiment to ensure they hit top form when the player in the promo/relegation battles to keep their spots.
25 Oct 2010, 11:33 am
expect a full house on Friday night!!! okay not a full house, but 25 000 + !!!
25 Oct 2010, 11:35 am
@wpjoulekkading(wpjoulekkading)-11: who do you want to see, Mbhiyozo, Nodikida, Stick, Nelson, Payi in every single game?
25 Oct 2010, 11:36 am
@wpjoulekkading(wpjoulekkading)-11: why does transformation and player development have to happen overnight in the case of EP, when far wealthier better structured franchises / unions can’t get it right after nearly 20 years.
The fact is that everyone fears that EP / EC / Spears / Kings will actually get it right if they are given the right structures, finances and opportunities so they sabotage and expect miracles to happen on a stopwatch or its a failure before it starts.
EP might just be proving all the doomsayers wrong after all … just look at post 4.
The talent will stay and Odwa and Rory might be the first couple of guys heading back.
25 Oct 2010, 11:36 am
Nice article , there is so much negative reporting around , so this was a nice change. It’s nice to see the EP Region finally moving forwad. Many fringe players from Bulls , Sharks and Province will go play there to get more gametime which can only create more depth in our rugby.
25 Oct 2010, 11:37 am
Good to see the outstanding Michael Bondesio, the Leopards scrumhalf, has ben picked up by a bigger union. It looks like he is set to go to the Lions.
25 Oct 2010, 11:37 am
@Pypkan(Pypkan)-10: Come on, the Pumas had a decent season. These are some highlights:
Pumas Leopards 37-32
Pumas Sharks 17-27
Pumas Lions 30-33
Pumas Bulls 22-21
Pumas Leopards 26-27
Pumas Lions 27-34
Ok, of course there were also some shockers in between. But this is surely something they could build on if they get the chance. On the other hand the north is quite a bit over-presented with the Lions, Bulls, Cheetahs, Leopards and Pumas in the Premier division. So in that sense the Kings will bring some balance at least.
25 Oct 2010, 11:37 am
“And for that Alan Solomons, Cheeky Watson and De Wet Barry can never be thanked enough.”
Good to read a positive article at last on EP, Cheeky, Solly and De Wet…
Cheeky catches much flak but he has set the stage that has allowed Solly to come in and draw the best from his players…
Very good article Keo…!!!
Now we just need EP to clear the final obstacle and win on Friday…!!!
Seems to be a groundswell of support building for them… Great to see…
GO KINGS!!!
25 Oct 2010, 11:38 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-14: not forgetting tiger mangweni
25 Oct 2010, 11:39 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-6:
but true nonetheless…generally, amongst sane and almost sane people. Back slapping and bj’s are given after the war is won.
not in the middle a week before the toughest game of the season at home against the Pumas.
25 Oct 2010, 11:39 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-12: fair point – perhaps it should be who takes the 1st division title automatically goes through and last place falls out in premier. then 2nd last plays 2nd in relegation.
25 Oct 2010, 11:41 am
@kevin w(kevin w)-15: You don’t really seem to want to have a conversation. Are you reading my posts in a neutral way?
As for your “fact” that “everyone fears” that they get it right – well that is just ridiculous. At least say “some people”, or even better say exactly who you mean when you make those kind of statements. I for one wouldn’t mind in the least. All i said is that I feel for the Pumas should they loose out.
25 Oct 2010, 11:41 am
@kevin w(kevin w)-15: well you will b told that transformation should happen overnight @ EP becasue they have branded themselves as the “posterboys” of transformation
25 Oct 2010, 11:42 am
IMO the Leopards really don’t deserve to stay up because they couldn’t win a game. So, the relegation/promotion would be fairer if, the bottom team was automatically relegated in favour of the winning Division 2 team, and the next 2 teams play off. This way the next best team isn’t automatically promoted, and the next to last team not automatically relegated
25 Oct 2010, 11:42 am
@Brigadier Van Zyl(Brigadier Van Zyl)-21: no the toughest game was away against the pumas and they put their noses ahead with home advantage coming up.
25 Oct 2010, 11:42 am
@kevin w(kevin w)-22: exactly.
25 Oct 2010, 11:43 am
you’re right brig!!
25 Oct 2010, 11:47 am
@wpjoulekkading(wpjoulekkading)-18: Yes, they did play way better than expected. I would have liked to see EP and the Pumas in the premier division. It’s a pitty that they have to play against each other in the playoffs now.
Like I said, the Pumas in Nelspruit (If they do move there) is an exciting prospect.
25 Oct 2010, 11:47 am
@wpjoulekkading(wpjoulekkading)-23: I’m just saying that so many people even yourself in that post want to compare the team on the field today, to what the real bigger picture is for Eastern Cape rugby in 2 years time.
Nobody gave them a chance, but now they got there, they not black enough. It takes time and all the other provinces have 15 years on them. I guarantee it won’t take an Eastern Cape franchise that long to get a good balance of local / black / white / coloured / good / imported players. No other franchise can say they have got that right.
And that is why i feel people fear that EP will become a success.
25 Oct 2010, 11:48 am
oh come on now….the Kings have marketed the “transformation” wagon to the hilt. There is massive amount of ethnic black talent in the area they just need the platform to perform…we have all heard this for years already now.
to my mind…”transformation”, in the ep region would mean more white okes being given the opportunity because I would automatically expect to see a almost entirely black rugby side running onto the field that resembles a zulu impi or whatever the hell it is the xhosa’s organized themselves into….probably a shebeen gathering?
in fact, I am suprised that Solomons hasn’t done a Schucks Schuster number and painted his face black.
25 Oct 2010, 11:49 am
Its been a while since I actually enjoyed reading an article on Keo.
It is quite a feat for Solly to have made the Queens competitive considering the “jungle” of EP rugby. Truly.
However before lionising the bugg.er especially regarding his loyalty to players just a little reminder regarding his not insignificant part in the poor treatment of Gary Teichmann.
Nevertheless, that disgraceful blot may have been a lesson learnt – it does seem that he earns his players’ loyalty and they really do play for him.
Not so sure though about the transformation credentials of EP (the reason behind getting the region into the big league in the first instance) considering the team generally has a lighter hue than most other teams, including their opposition – the Pumas.
Some would say that EP should not be denied the “professionalism” of other unions – especially the ability to buy whoever they need in order to improve – but the purchase of a scallywag Samoan (who will drop them at the first sign of interest from a bigger union) and an Italian American US Eagle representative (blocking the way for some real black talent from EP who could one day be available to the Boks) is not really professional and is a bit “short termist”. If it is the latter and the intention is to replace these guys with black talent from the area in the future then that belies the talk about loyalty, doesn’t it…
Oh well, the EP KIngs – yet another illogical anomaly in the constellation of SA Rugby, and not an incubator of the “huge” untapped talent reservoir of the Eastern Cape YET…
25 Oct 2010, 11:53 am
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-32: How can the initial plan not be short term … when the long term promises came to nothing.
First step is Premier division and they are one win away – the representation will come. Black and white because the region is rich in talent.
25 Oct 2010, 11:54 am
@Brigadier Van Zyl(Brigadier Van Zyl)-31: yes and they are busy building the platform.
25 Oct 2010, 11:55 am
SAPA
“CENTURION: The Customs and Excise department of the South African Revenue Service (SARS) announced on Friday the confiscation of spoiled and fake cans of whoopass.
Acting director-general of Customs and Excise, Sharkie Spoildapatie, held a news conference to announce the confiscation, which was made at an undisclosed address in the Greater Ekurhuleni area.
The items were discovered in two separate underground bunkers on a property belonging to one person identified only by the initial “T”, who was arrested.
The cans of whoopass displayed the names of renowned national and international brands, but they lacked the necessary quality requirements. “This confirms there is fraud and endorsement of spoiled goods,” Spoildapatie said, adding that the property owner confessed he had been aware of the nature of the products for a long time.
Spoildapatie explained that the role of the Customs and Excise was not only to collect duties at the borders but also to protect consumers and citizens from “products that do not respect health and quality conditions”.
The counterfeit cans of whoopass were thought to have been imported to South Africa via barrels smuggled from Sri Lanka.
Any people with information about the case were asked to come forward.”
25 Oct 2010, 12:00 pm
@WP Till I Die(WP-Forever)-35: :mrgreen” classic
25 Oct 2010, 12:02 pm
@Brigadier Van Zyl(Brigadier Van Zyl)-31: is the platform there is your skewed opinion?
25 Oct 2010, 12:03 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-36:
25 Oct 2010, 12:12 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-32: i see the volume & intensity of the vitriol is diminishing a bit
don’t worry Heaven’s Shame, you & your gatgabba Brigs van Zyl will celebrate soon enough..
25 Oct 2010, 12:17 pm
I have said this before and will say it again, give EP a Super Rugby franchise the rest will sort itself out. Border cricket and EP cricket were a mess individually, but now the Warriors are arguable the best provincial side in the world.
1. Ashwell Prince ( Protea)
2. Jacques Kallis ( Protea)
3. Davey Jacobs
4. Colin Ingram ( yes yes I told you all, he will be a Protea by year end!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
5. Arno Jacobs
6. Mark Boucher( Protea)
7. Johan Botha( Protea)
8. Nicky Boje
9. Wayne Parnell ( Protea)
10. Makhaya Ntini (Protea)
11. Lobster Tsotsobe (Protea)
25 Oct 2010, 12:21 pm
If the Kings make it to the Premier division of the CC they will attract HUGE sponsorships (I cannot think of a better way for Companies to earn brownie points). With these funds at their disposal they will attract a list of high profile players. Watch this space – its going to get very interesting!
25 Oct 2010, 12:24 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-40: you can put “ex-protea” for nicky boje, although I was never a big fan of his.
25 Oct 2010, 12:25 pm
@AlphaTango(AlphaTango)-41: Shimlas boost to EP Kings
2010-10-20 22:30Email | Print
George Whitehead (Gallo Images)
Jóhann Thormählen
Bloemfontein – The Eastern Province Kings’ bid at becoming a force in South African rugby has been boosted by the acquisition of more Shimlas.
Hooker Frank Herne will soon join the Kings, while flyhalf George Whitehead and wing Beast Nwandwa will also be available for the Kings.
They will join former Shimlas centre Wayne Stevens and scrumhalf Gerrie Odendaal in Port Elizabeth.
Stevens and Odendaal were both members of the Kings team that recently won the Currie Cup’s First Division and will be in action in Witbank in the first promotion-relegation match against the Pumas on Friday.
The Shimlas have also made an acquisition in flyhalf/fullback Shaun Davids, who previously played for Tukkies in the Varsity Cup.
Centre Charl Weideman, who played for the Maties in this year’s Varsity Cup and for the Griffons in the Currie Cup, may also play for the Kings.
Herne was captain of the Free State Cheetahs under-21 side this year. He represented the SA Academy side in 2007 and will join the Kings on November 1.
Whitehead, who is also a Free State under-21 player, has a bursary agreement with the University of the Free State. He has to complete six months of his studies there next year.
While he has not officially signed a Kings contract, he should play for Shimlas in the Varsity Cup and be in Port Elizabeth by July 2011.
Nwandwa will play for the Nelson Mandela Metropolitan University in next year’s Varsity Cup and may also be used by the Kings. He played for the Free State under-21 side with Whitehead and Herne.
Eastern Province certainly have a liking for Free State players as props André Schlechter and Riaan Vermeulen, locks Rory Duncan and Barend Pietersen, No 8 Darron Nell and flyhalf Jaco van Schalkwyk have already played for the Kings.
Sport24 also reportedly recently that former Free State’s Falie Oelschig, who plays scrumhalf for French club Stade Francais, will report for duty in Port Elizabeth in May 2011.
25 Oct 2010, 12:26 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-40: quite right, EP cricket was BANKRUPT in 2002!
25 Oct 2010, 12:31 pm
Shouldn’t the positive be in EP made it to Premier, and the Lions are now owned by BEE that 2 of the ‘old’ big 6 are now transformed, which means more opportunities and hopefully less of Stofile?
25 Oct 2010, 12:39 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-40: *****!!, I forgot Rusty Theron in that team, so Rusty in for Boje, only Smith, AB De Villiers and Dale Steyn, and Bob’s is your mum’s brother!!!!!
@Transformation(Transformation)-44: Yet, they said the franchise wont work in the EP, not even mentioning the set back of losing Mickey Arthur to the Proteas early on.
Just in terms of rugby brains who are from the region, Solomons, Rassie Erasmus, Allistair Coetzee.
25 Oct 2010, 12:40 pm
@gecko(gecko)-45: hahaha @ “less of stofile” which stofile are you referring to, the minister or his younger brother?
25 Oct 2010, 12:41 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-46: it’s not “rock science” that we have the capacity
25 Oct 2010, 12:43 pm
Great article to start off the week with Keo. Thank you.
25 Oct 2010, 12:52 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-48:
!!!
25 Oct 2010, 14:03 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-43: Eastern Province certainly have a liking for Free State players as props André Schlechter and Riaan Vermeulen, locks Rory Duncan and Barend Pietersen, No 8 Darron Nell and flyhalf Jaco van Schalkwyk have already played for the Kings
Rory Duncan and Darron Nel represented EP long before Rory took the Cheetahs to CC glory. I think it may be the other way around.
25 Oct 2010, 14:38 pm
I think the artickle is a bit premature. Let EP first get past the Pumas on Friday. In my opinion Solomons has achieved nothing yet, only if they advance to the premier division can you say he made a real difference.
I also agree from a SA rugby perspective, EP has to win. But what if they loose on Friday? I dont think the Pumas are going to roll over on Friday. Their careers are on the line so I will expect them to put up a fight, and if they play like they did against the Bulls and Lions they might just spoil the party for Solomons, Watson and a lot of other people.
25 Oct 2010, 14:50 pm
Explain this to me, how come this article is good, because Keo likes Solly and gives him a good write up?
25 Oct 2010, 15:08 pm
Keo has been “hobnobbing” with Luke and his lady, so expect a lot more pro-Cheeky, pro-Luke redemption etc. I come to you at the turn of the tide
But I also want EP to make it to the Premier Division, have a softspot for the EC. Keo might even stay over at Joe Van Niekerk’s house one evening, they’ll kiss and make up, and tomorrow we have a piece on Joe, saying he must go to WC2011. Funny stuff.
25 Oct 2010, 15:14 pm
@Loki(Loki)-54:
ahh the things people will do for a free lunch….
25 Oct 2010, 15:17 pm
Last weekend’s starting lineups origins:
15 Mzwandile Stick: Born Port Elizabeth, School Stephen Mazumgula (Junior) Newell High School
14 Paul Perez: Samoa
13 De Wet Barry: Born Ceres, Western Cape, School Paarl Gimnasium
12 Wayne Stevens: Grey High School, Port Elizabeth
11 Norman Nelson: Born Patensie, Eastern Province, School Patensie
10: Monty du Mond: Born Klerksdorp, School Orkney High School
9 Gerrie Odendaal: Born Standerton, School Affies Pretoria
8 JJ Gagiano: Born Cape Town, School Bishops CT
7 Jacques Potgieter: Born Port Elizabeth, School Verkenner Primary and Danial Pienaar Tech High School (both PE)
6 Devin Oosthuizen: ???, School Voorpos (Junior) H.T.S John Vorster (High)
5 Willem Stolz: ???, School Jan Viljoen High School
4 Rory Duncan: Durban, School Dale Junior (King Willaims’s Town), Muir College Uitenhage
3 Andre Schlechter: ??? Namibian????
2 Jaco Fourie: Grey College Bloem
1 Pumlani Nodikida: Peddie, Macabangwana Primary School, Qaphelani High School
Pretty average spread of imports vs home grown when compared to other franchises.
25 Oct 2010, 15:18 pm
@Loki(Loki)-54:
lets hope he isn’t going to be staying with hougaard and schalk britz….
25 Oct 2010, 15:20 pm
Solomons has also a very nice big cheque book and that helps – I heard that Valie Oelsig is going to get a R1 million, the current Puma captain and hooker 3 times more than what he is currently earning at Pumas.’
25 Oct 2010, 15:23 pm
@Jonck(Jonck)-58: Jaco Engels also signed with EP.
25 Oct 2010, 15:30 pm
@j-ms(j-ms)-56:
I think you might surprise yourself if you were to go and do a similar analysis for a team like the Bulls.
25 Oct 2010, 15:45 pm
@j-ms(j-ms)-56:
The Bulls team that lost to the Sharks:
15 Zane Kirchner – born in George
14 Gerhard van den Heever – born in Bloemfontein
13 Jaco Pretorius – born in Johannesburg
12 Wynand Olivier – born in Welkom
11 Jaco van der Westhuyzen – born in Nelspruit
10 Morné Steyn – born in Cape Town
9 Francois Hougaard – born in Paarl
8 Danie Rossouw – born in Sabie
7 Dewald Potgieter – born in Port Elizabeth
6 Derick Kuün – born in Johannesburg
5 Victor Matfield (captain) – born in Polokwane
4 Bakkies Botha – born in Newcastle
3 Werner Kruger – born in Kempton Park
2 Chiliboy Ralepelle – born in Tzaneen
1 Dean Greyling – born in Potgietersrus
WOW! Not a single one born in Pretoria…
25 Oct 2010, 15:58 pm
@61
Who the F*ck cares where a player was born, where was he developed?
25 Oct 2010, 15:59 pm
@WP Till I Die(WP-Forever)-61: How many actually did any schooling in PTA
25 Oct 2010, 16:07 pm
62. Papoose(papaown): That’s why I noted where they went to school.
25 Oct 2010, 16:08 pm
62. Papoose(papaown): well, people care, because as soon as anything is said about EP then the make-up of the team becomes a bush for scoundrels to hide behind! a franchise like the bulls with all the money it has, could’ve opened its academy to many mamelodi, atteridgeville, soshanguve boys and unearthed a plethora of talent, but the willingness to transform is not there.
25 Oct 2010, 16:10 pm
61. WP Till I Die(WP-Forever): now you will be able to add Bjorn Basson: born in King Williams Town, prep: Central primary: high school: Dale College.
25 Oct 2010, 16:19 pm
#62 transie.
so the question is……
who is currently more “transformed”……
bbru or epru?
genuine question.
25 Oct 2010, 16:22 pm
A union operating on a shoe-string budget against the richest union in the country, wow, a fair comparison is possible?
25 Oct 2010, 16:23 pm
67. charo – the wp giant(charo): epru by a mile. there are no players accused of being quotas in EP
25 Oct 2010, 16:25 pm
67. CHARO – THE WP GIANT(CHARO): 67. CHARO – THE WP GIANT(CHARO): And that is the elephant in the room question that the transformationistas and their useful idiot liberals seem to avoid…
25 Oct 2010, 16:26 pm
OK, we’ll list where they went to high school:
15 Zane Kirchner – PW Botha College (George)
14 Gerhard van den Heever – Afrikaans Hoër Seunskool (Pretoria)
13 Jaco Pretorius – Gelofte Hoërskool (Pinetown)
12 Wynand Olivier – Afrikaans Hoër Seunskool (Pretoria)
11 Jaco van der Westhuyzen – Ben Viljoen (Groblersdal)
10 Morné Steyn – Sand du Plessis (Bloemfontein)
9 Francois Hougaard – Paul Roos Gimnasium (Stellenbosch)
8 Danie Rossouw – Rob Ferreira (Nelspruit)
7 Dewald Potgieter – HTS Dan Pienaar (Uitenhage)
6 Derick Kuün – Afrikaans Hoër Seunskool (Pretoria)
5 Victor Matfield (captain) – Hoërskool Pietersburg
4 Bakkies Botha – HTS Vereeniging, HTS Middelburg
3 Werner Kruger – Jeugland Hoërskool (Kempton Park)
2 Chiliboy Ralepelle – Pretoria Boys High
1 Dean Greyling – Afrikaans Hoër Seunskool
So let’s be generous and say that 8 of the run-up 15 were “developed” within Blue Bull country, the other 7 are imports.
So pretty much similar to what J-MS was trying to point out in his post 56 above.
25 Oct 2010, 16:30 pm
70. hg
have been trying to understand this “transformation” thingy in rugby for some time.
now i’m told it is not actually a numbers thing…
then wtf is it?
i thought epru was “transformed” when it went down the tubes.
but apparently not. it is now “transformed” even though there are more witous involved than before.
maybe it is now “transformed” because it is more successful than in the originally “transformed” days.
scratch head……………
25 Oct 2010, 16:35 pm
70. Heavens Game(Heavens Game): what is there to avoid? the blue bulls were the kakkest union in the history of super rugby from ’98 – ’03 FACT but because they were guaranteed participation in super rugby and sponsors pumped in loads of money – to a point where a black-owned Oasis asset management company from cape town sponsor them – they managed to BUY the best players and retain them!
25 Oct 2010, 16:39 pm
72. charo – the wp giant(charo): voting in an incompetent black person into a position of power is not Transformation! it doesn’t matter how much you want to associate transformation with mediocrity Charo, these two concepts are not tied at the hip
25 Oct 2010, 16:47 pm
72. CHARO – THE WP GIANT(CHARO): Ja, I also can’t get my head around the overwhelming witou presence in a “transformed” union… It is confusing… No one can define it so fark knows how you can measure it, so that you know if you have achieved it or not…
25 Oct 2010, 16:50 pm
75. Heavens Game(Heavens Game): what did jurie roux say it was to you senile dimwit?
25 Oct 2010, 16:52 pm
73. Transformation
They also used their money wisely in building one of the country’s best youth academies and brought in a coach who setup some fantastic internal structures.
Like Dubai they had longevity in mind with their spend.
25 Oct 2010, 16:54 pm
73. TRANSFORMATION(TRANSFORMATION): So the Bulls are transformed…yeah? Or have they still got a little bit to go…?
25 Oct 2010, 16:55 pm
Just read according to PDV to get our defence right we need a “5% improvement from the players”????
25 Oct 2010, 16:56 pm
77. Yetirat(Yetirat): the point is that if for any reason, they were not guaranteed super rugby participation, they wouldn’t have retained sponsors and thus the quality players! look at the lions – in the financial hub of sa – yet they are still kak and “transformation” can’t even be blamed for that one cos the Ferreias, Reyneckes, de Klerks have been at the helm!
25 Oct 2010, 16:57 pm
76. Transformation(Transformation)
actually old jurie didn’t spell out either.
all said was that “transformation” is not about numbers but more about attitude – if i remember correctly.
then he went on to boast that they had 6 coloured ous in the maties team.
????????????
25 Oct 2010, 16:57 pm
78. Heavens Game(Heavens Game): they’re not!
25 Oct 2010, 16:58 pm
76. TRANSFORMATION(TRANSFORMATION): and is Roux the expert in transformation? the sole authority? the Matie oracle?… farking umdidi
25 Oct 2010, 16:59 pm
78. Heavens Game(Heavens Game): 81. charo – the wp giant(charo): are the lions transformed? if not why are they kak?
25 Oct 2010, 17:00 pm
81. CHARO – THE WP GIANT(CHARO):Ja, you see, Rouz is also farting against the wind….
82. TRANSFORMATION(TRANSFORMATION): Please give a definition of transformation then…?
25 Oct 2010, 17:01 pm
83. Heavens Game(Heavens Game): get the Banshee to bring you your meds, did i say he is?
25 Oct 2010, 17:03 pm
84. TRANSFORMATION(TRANSFORMATION): Fark knows if the Lions are transformed? You or Roux can’t even tell us whether the EP Queens are transformed, transforming or to be transformed… and what that is when it happens…
25 Oct 2010, 17:04 pm
80. Transformation
I don’t disagree with your point.
All I was getting at was the long term vision the Bulls had in mind with their spend. A lesson a team like the Lions could learn as they enter a new blossoming period.
25 Oct 2010, 17:04 pm
86. TRANSFORMATION(TRANSFORMATION): See Xhosa’s have inherited the ability for evasiveness – its in the genes from running away from Zulu impis…
25 Oct 2010, 17:07 pm
81. charo – the wp giant(charo): hahahah go on and try to fudge what he he said duplicitous cretin, for the benefit of those like simon borchardt and yourself obsessed with race, he highlighted the advances of their transformation initiative that took kids who would not necessarily have had the opportunities to study @ stellenbosch and developed them into competent rugby players, hence he said there are no such thing as quotas at Maties!
25 Oct 2010, 17:08 pm
A section from “King Of The Road” -Roger Miller
Trailers for sale or rent
Rooms to let…fifty cents.
No phone, no pool, no pets
I ain’t got no cigarettes
Ah, but..two hours of pushin’ broom
Buys an eight by twelve four-bit room
I’m a man of means by no means
King of the road.
Third boxcar, midnight train
Destination…Bangor, Maine.
Old worn out suits and shoes,
I don’t pay no union dues,
I smoke old stogies I have found
Short, but not too big around
I’m a man of means by no means
King of the road.
GO KINGS!!!!! GO KINGS!!!! GO KINGS!!!
25 Oct 2010, 17:08 pm
84. Transformation(Transformation)
this is the big conundrum.
what measurement do we have to decide whether the lions are transformed or not?
if it is numbers then clearly not.
if it is s14 results then they must be pretty close
25 Oct 2010, 17:11 pm
Transie forget it bro, the type of attitude displayed by Heavens Game et al is exactly the reason why this lovely country of ours will never evolve into a better country. One can assume that HG at al are relatively educated fellas who should at least have the mental fortitude to grasp the imperatives of transforming a society, yet the spew forth ignorance of the highest order.
Now, imagine what chance does your less educated white person has of coming to terms with this need to transform?
25 Oct 2010, 17:12 pm
90. Transformation(Transformation)
but ikeys have doing this for decades.
so what’s so great about juries then?
8)
25 Oct 2010, 17:13 pm
89. Heavens Game(Heavens Game): where is it documented that Xhosas ran from from Shaka or were defeated by him?
25 Oct 2010, 17:14 pm
HG @ 89, I see your Colonial tendecies of dividing South Africans into tribes is raring its ugly head….
25 Oct 2010, 17:15 pm
93. XhosaKid(XhosaKid):
you seem to have got hold of the wrong end of the stick.
the question originally was…..
are epru more transformed than bbru?
if so, why?
simple question.
25 Oct 2010, 17:16 pm
93. XhosaKid(XhosaKid): don’t worry, they are cretins destined for the eternal life in a purgatory of nothingness while we will raise the profile of this country, slowly but surely!
25 Oct 2010, 17:18 pm
96. XhosaKid(XhosaKid): ja, he says Zulus are “genetically disposed” like afrikaners to be forwards
25 Oct 2010, 17:21 pm
Charo@97
I’ll put it this way, you rock up at Buffalo Park when the Warriors are playing, the Warriors side on that day could easily have 6 black players or 1, but you ask your average fan, whether they have any hung ups about composition of the side, the answer would be NO, why?, because everyone has the same chance of playing, therefore the team is selected purely on ability and form.
The same applies to EPRU, I hope you get the analogy, its about a paradigm shift, I know its difficult to grasp if one is not really interested in the change.
25 Oct 2010, 17:30 pm
100. XhosaKid(XhosaKid):
at last – somebody at least giving a reasonable explanation.
well then, the dolphins have been transformed for bladdy years.
25 Oct 2010, 17:32 pm
You can’t argue the facts … you look at players of colour, not just ethnic blacks if that is the correct term, and you will find that they have their roots in the Eastern Cape (Mossel bay to Kokstad).
Perhaps we can have a list of black Boks without their roots in the EC. Dlulane, Solly, Odwa, Akona, Nokwe etc. Is their another region to rival it.
Then you take the Ashley Johnsons, Zane Kirchners, Kabamba Floors, Bevin Fortuins etc. from SWD and surrounds
Lets not even start on the make-up of the sevens who run onto the field with at least a 50-50 against the All Blacks
And then of course Brent Russell, Luke Watson, Kankowski, Daniel, Potgieter, Killian, Kockott, Mvovo, Basoon, Joann Muller, Rory Duncan etc. etc.
These are ALL (except) Dlulane people that are still playing and would make a well balanced team on all fronts (quality and colour).
And this is the poorest region in the country, so imagine what proper development could do?
But you know what they say about common sense… its not that common.
25 Oct 2010, 17:35 pm
101. Charo –
Dolphins enlighten me? Don’t recall too many – Malcolm Marshall don’t speak too good Zulu. And in the case of Klusener, it’s just a nickname…
25 Oct 2010, 17:35 pm
Charo @ 100
Possible yes, as an example, I saw Dave Miller play and I knew he was destined for better things and nothing stood in his way, not some “quota” player just for the sake of numbers. The kid is pure class, head and shoulders above his peers, thats why he is in the team, thats how sports should be, TRANSFORMED!!!
25 Oct 2010, 17:38 pm
@104, yes, Dave Miller is white……. hope you keep up….
25 Oct 2010, 17:48 pm
the Law of the Transformation of Quantity into Quality and vice versa.”
According to this law, as we have already seen, “the process of development” is (a) one in which a number of insignificant and gradual changes in the quantity of something are abruptly succeeded by a marked change in its quality, and (b) one in which these abrupt changes are not accidental but are “the natural result” of the preceding quantitative changes. (c) that these changes of quality are “an onward and upward movement,” (d) that they are a “development from the simple to the complex,” and (e) that they are “from the lower to the higher.” With this sort of change is contrasted the sort of change that nature is held not to undergo, namely gradual changes, “movement in a circle,” “simple repetition of what has already occurred.”
Stalin…
25 Oct 2010, 17:50 pm
100. XHOSAKID(XHOSAKID): i’ve been saying the same thing for months but charo is seemingly dof to this kind of reasoning. When derick kuun plays hooker before the u21 baby bokke cappie & his reserve then you know ain’t sh*t transformed about that lot!
25 Oct 2010, 17:50 pm
103. kevin w(kevin w):
talking of indian cricketers.
unless they are excluded from this discussion?
104. XhosaKid(XhosaKid):
we have some good youngsters emerging for the proteas
105. XhosaKid(XhosaKid):
talking to yourself?
25 Oct 2010, 17:51 pm
96. XHOSAKID(XHOSAKID): So there are no “tribes” and there are not 11 official languages…?
There are no royal lines to these tribes and no traditions and history…
Must have been “transformed”…
25 Oct 2010, 17:54 pm
107. Transformation(Transformation):
hogwash.
you have evaded giving a straight answer to me every time i have asked.
you are good at archiving – find me a post from you to me spelling out your view on transformation.
8)
25 Oct 2010, 17:55 pm
@109
What was the relevance in mentioning Xhosa and Zulu in your original post other than to drive the tribal wedge?
25 Oct 2010, 17:56 pm
@ 108. Charo
Aaahhh Indians – even that I don’t recall too many. But then surely if the entire EP side should be black as you argue, the entire Dolphins side should be Indians based on the fact that you argue them so great in transformation. They do by far have the most indian cricket players.
In fact, when i think Dolphins a certain Kevin Pietersen comes to mind – the boy who dissed the country because of transformation and tattooed and England flag onto himself.
25 Oct 2010, 17:58 pm
On “Transformation”
George Orwell once wrote that ‘at any given moment, there is a sort of all-pervading orthodoxy — a general tacit agreement not to discuss some large and uncomfortable fact.’
…explains the evasion of the transformationistas to please explain transformation….
25 Oct 2010, 18:00 pm
111. XHOSAKID(XHOSAKID): The Need for Speed…? And bigger black forwards?
Keep up and read…
25 Oct 2010, 18:00 pm
Heavens Game @113
The irony of your post, take a mirror, please…
25 Oct 2010, 18:00 pm
@113.
What would George Orwell have written of Apartheid and linking to communism doesn’t appear that bright either considering who was instrumental behind ending apartheid.
You have Verwoerd as a role model, i’ll take Mandela.
25 Oct 2010, 18:04 pm
@114, well then I guess the English were/are expect at this “evasiveness” considering they have moved all over the world. Or maybe when its the English/Europeans moving, its called finding new frontiers whereas when its Xhosa’s its running away from Zulu impi’s, Wow!!, profound stuff!!!
25 Oct 2010, 18:04 pm
112. kevin w(kevin w):
go read xhosakid’s #100 again then you will understand why i think the dolphins have been “transformed” for years.
i.e. nobody questions the selections and everybody in kzn supports the team.
25 Oct 2010, 18:05 pm
116. KEVIN W(KEVIN W): Why Verwoerd as a role model when asking about the meaning of transformation?
Can you explain or define transformation or is this an “all pervading orhtodoxy” – a general tacit agreement not to discuss some large and uncomfortable fact…
Apartheid was defined, practiced and found tragically wanting…
Is transformation in the same circle?
25 Oct 2010, 18:07 pm
115. XHOSAKID(XHOSAKID): …. still no explanation of “Transformation”…?
I ask you now because “Transie” has evaded the question.
What is transformation especially in the context of rugby…?
I won’t hold my breath…
Stalinists and their useful liberal idiots like Kevin W on the other side of the telephone…
25 Oct 2010, 18:09 pm
119 I mention “circle” because liberal heroes like Stalin say that “Transformation” is “movement in a circle”…
25 Oct 2010, 18:10 pm
Heavens Game @ 120
Please read my post, number 100, then ask again if you still dont my explanation.
25 Oct 2010, 18:10 pm
@116 Heaven
listen mate, i disappoint myself every time i get drawn into a debate with someone like you.
Go and be holier than thou or whatever you still consider yourself to be. Again its been drawn away from the fact that EP rugby is on the rise, win or lose this weekend.
I’m proud and have no doubt that the right resources and management will see a strong franchise for the Eastern Cape and I believe it is the team that will develop black talent.
transformation is nothing other than change for the better … how you go about it can be challenging. So i don’t need google to come up with an opinion.
Enjoy the rugby mate.
25 Oct 2010, 18:13 pm
113. HEAVENS GAME(HEAVENS GAME): Orwell was referring to you and charo’s tacit agreement not to discuss the exclusion of blacks in most sports when you guys grew up!
strange how you are so in defence of that engineered status quo! 
25 Oct 2010, 18:16 pm
People who think EP rugby must transform overnight and be completely black to be able to have their place in rugby are as friggin thick and so full of their own importance as Mugabe and Malema who believe in the same approach for land grabs and taking over businesses.
25 Oct 2010, 18:16 pm
115. XHOSAKID(XHOSAKID): Explain the irony…? You will probably mention something to do with Apartheid…
My assumption then is that “Transformation” = redress of the effects of Apartheid…
And if so, how is the redress:
-accomplished in operational terms i.e. practicalities?
- how do you determine whether this redress is occurring?
- how do you know whether this redress has been accomplished?
Transformation = redress = social justice…?
How? Especially in the context of Rugby…
(Which then relates to my comments on EP – I don’t see redress in the form of a Samoan and a lighter hued team than the Pumas…)
Curious…
25 Oct 2010, 18:19 pm
124. TRANSFORMATION(TRANSFORMATION): Avoidance… see post 126. And I ask again What is Transformation and how is Transformation accomplished….?
But I think you will evade and mention apartheid….
I don’t know why?
25 Oct 2010, 18:21 pm
125. kevin w(kevin w):
mugabe is a cuckold.
but careful, you might annoy transie…
he still buys nestle products
8)
25 Oct 2010, 18:21 pm
119. HEAVENS GAME(HEAVENS GAME): there’s nothing ‘uncomfortable’ about the fact that rugby in south africa had to be transformed from the ‘white’s only’ sport or bastion/expression of afrikaner nationalism & manhood! Ask alan solomons if he is ‘uncomfortable’ with transformation, and while you’re at it call the ceo of saru and ask him if he is also ‘uncomfortable’ with transformation…
Only anal pessimists like yourself & charo from the last outpost are ostensibly unnerved by transformation
25 Oct 2010, 18:26 pm
128. CHARO – THE WP GIANT(CHARO): yeah i still by nestle products like you still buy chinese goods
25 Oct 2010, 18:28 pm
128. Charo
I’d prefer if you actually commented on the statement … the fact that your approach to being all black immediately instead of a prolonged process of controlled change is similar to the mentality around mugabe and malema who want things to be black overnight. Do you support that way of thinking?
25 Oct 2010, 18:30 pm
123. KEVIN W(KEVIN W): Why am I holier than thou when I ask what Transformation is.
Do you accept your complicity as a white person who benefitted disproportionately from Apartheid…?
Who is holier than thou here…?
25 Oct 2010, 18:34 pm
Transformation is a process of change for the better.
And i believe a strong representative team will be good for the region, the country and the game. No other region has been able to do that.
Feel free to disagree or google a quote or whatever makes you look so blerrie klever
25 Oct 2010, 18:34 pm
Transie?? What’s this I hear about you buying Nestle????
Get with the program man……. 
25 Oct 2010, 18:38 pm
It’s because I’m white, isn’t it??
25 Oct 2010, 18:39 pm
129. TRANSFORMATION(TRANSFORMATION): “rugby in south africa had to be transformed from the ‘white’s only’ sport or bastion/expression of afrikaner nationalism & manhood” – so with that past tense “had” are you saying that transformation has taken place? How did this take place? Is transformation of rugby finished, then? If not, when will it be finished…? Will transformation ever be finished or is everyhting continually transforming re Stalins quote above…
I am not “unnerved” about transformation – How could I be if it is the indefinable object of faith, like it seems…
You still have not told me what you mean my transformation or what it is: The only answer I have got is from a witou Kevin W telling me that transformation is “nothing other than change for the better”… What “change” and what “better”…?
25 Oct 2010, 18:40 pm
131. KEVIN W(KEVIN W): What do you mean by “who want things to be black overnight”…
What “things” and “to be black” means what?
25 Oct 2010, 18:44 pm
131. kevin w(kevin w):
when did i say that i wanted everything black right now?
sheet…this is getting confusing.
on the left of me i have transie saying i am a relic of the bad old days because i want him to define “transformation”
and on the right i have kevvie going on about me wanting everything black now, now ,now.
as they say in the classics……
eish
25 Oct 2010, 18:46 pm
So transformation is:
“everyone has the same chance of playing, therefore the team is selected purely on ability and form.”
How do you determine whether or when “everyone has the same chance of playing”?
What do you mean by “everyone”…?
Practicalities please, not nebulous obfuscations…
25 Oct 2010, 18:49 pm
134. STORMERSBOY(STORMERSBOY): Its a practicality… who cares where it comes from and how it was produced if you like the product… Its “transformation” in a way? Maybe Nestle is fully “transformed”…?
25 Oct 2010, 18:53 pm
136. HEAVENS GAME(HEAVENS GAME): use your own freaking mind, why would the sponsor of the Currie Cup be concerned with the pace of transformation if it was complete?
Your words betray your trepidation with this change.
and if you don’t know, now you know n*gga 
25 Oct 2010, 18:54 pm
Post 139 was meant for Xhosakid post 120…
Talking about tribes I see you find some sort of relevance by using a nic containing “Xhosa”… Nothing “tribal” I presume?
25 Oct 2010, 18:58 pm
141. TRANSFORMATION(TRANSFORMATION): I am not asking why… I asked what is transformation and how is transformation accomplished?
Still no answer…?
How could I have “trepidation” and why would I have “trepidation”?
25 Oct 2010, 19:04 pm
143. HEAVENS GAME(HEAVENS GAME): to paraphrase: transformation is the restoration of order where there was disorder, the changing of prevailing mindsets re coaching, development, playing, administration of south african rugby..
25 Oct 2010, 19:04 pm
141. TRANSFORMATION(TRANSFORMATION):Also re “pace of transformation”…
How do you determine a faster or slower pace of transformation if you don’t know what it is…?
So do you think Maria Ramos and Fatty von Zeuner know the answers…? (A couple of witous?)
Who determines transformation then? Just powerful witou executives of companies established by Apartheid?
So it is the same circle Witous –> Apartheid –> Transformation —> Witous…? Doesn’t seem representative, this “transformation”?
25 Oct 2010, 19:07 pm
It’s been my experience that on this site, people are not really interrested in adapting to another’s point of view. So basically just agruing at each other from accross the fence
25 Oct 2010, 19:08 pm
144. TRANSFORMATION(TRANSFORMATION): so when you transform, you restore order…
Okay lets take an example using that definition:
- You say the Bulls are not “transformed” which means they are in “disorder”…
How would you transform the Bulls to be more “ordered” or “orderly”??
25 Oct 2010, 19:11 pm
146. STORMERSBOY(STORMERSBOY):”adapting to another,s point of view”…
Adapting = transforming?
Adapting can also mean being compliant and wishy-washy…?
25 Oct 2010, 19:14 pm
145. HEAVENS GAME(HEAVENS GAME): what is the fixation with race? So what if maria ramos is a ‘witou’ as you call her? Can she not contribute in the transformation of the many aspects of our country because she’s white? Stay in England HG, we don’t need your kak
and Charo should remain in Ghana with those subservient natives he loves so much 
25 Oct 2010, 19:32 pm
Its not a “fixation”, just an observation about the colour of their skins – not race per se?… expecially since both executives seem to have a stake in the “pace of transformation” in rugby… It may be irrelevant if transformation has nothing to do with race?
Which leads me to another question in my seemingly circular quest to find out what transformation is, how it is applied and how is it accomplished.
Does transformation not have anything to do with race?
Does transformation not have anything to do with colour?
However those questions assume that transformation is defined and yes you seemingly have defined it by stating it is order from disorder…
Another application of your definition: Was PdV appointed on the basis of transforming bok rugby? If so, is Bok rugby now more “ordered” by your definition of transformation?
25 Oct 2010, 19:48 pm
HG @ 139,
Are you genuinely not understanding what post 100 meant in its definition of what Transformation is or you are deliberately being obtuse because you were complicating a very simply matter.
You got an answer, that your bigotry didnt really expect existed?.
Yes, re read post 100 and ask your buddies to help you if you genuinely dont get it.
25 Oct 2010, 19:52 pm
HG @ 150
Transformation is a race issue only if one narrows its definition, I used Dave Miller as a perfect example of a transformed system.
25 Oct 2010, 20:07 pm
149 transformation
you are sounding more and more like your hero mugabe everyday.
these neo-colonialists must stay in breeetin and not interfere or ask awkward querstions
152 xhosakid
so, you are saying david miller would not have been accepted by the black supporters if cricket hadn’t been “transformed”?
25 Oct 2010, 20:12 pm
@153
No, I’m saying, an UNTRANSFORMED system would have had a “quota” player block a talented youngster from breaking through. Whether that “quota” is White or Black, or the youngster is white or black is irrelevant.
Again, refer to post 100
25 Oct 2010, 20:16 pm
151. XHOSAKID(XHOSAKID): I am asking you…
Seems to be a very uncomfortable question to ask? I have some answers that are quite hazy…
One of my questions was “what is transformation?” never mind the other questions relating to applying it and observing it. I have 5 different answers from 3 different people:
- “because everyone has the same chance of playing, therefore the team is selected purely on ability and form.”… Xhosakid
- “nothing other than change for the better”… Kevin W
- “is a ‘process’ of change for the better”… Kevin W
- “is the restoration of order where there was disorder”… Transformation
- “the changing of prevailing mindsets”…Transformation
So this leads to: What is the “process”?, How do you determine “the same chance”? When does “purely on ability and form” come into fruition? What is meant by “order” in the context of rugby bearing in mind my other queries? What are the “mindsets” that need to be “changed” and how do you change them. Who does the “changing”?
Easy to label someone a bigot… What makes me more of a bigot and you less of one?
Eish, this “transformation” is truly a large, uncomfortable fact that is explainable only by an all pervading orthodoxy…
Maybe another time someone can tell me what this thing is…. “What is transformation?” seems to be a similar question to “what is God?” or “what is the meaning of life”?
Eish.
25 Oct 2010, 20:28 pm
Ah, freedom of speech is wonderful! Begotry,racism, fascism, humanism, self righteous, etc. Being entitled to your opinion and being smart enough to realise that your opinion is your perception of issues in a way. But perception is not always necessarily correct or the truth. There will always be contestations. One thing there is only one fact and there are no versions of fact/truth.
Some here called Mandela a terrorist not so long ago and that was their perception of him, now those begots will never be found today under any boulder.
Now transformation is the new swear word, some call it racism in reverse. As I said that is their perception, their reality, like when they called Mandela a terrorist not so long ago. You can see these people are not your ordinary Johnny come lately. They have been around and they know what they are talking about. It is like when Hannes Marais said not so long ago that “rugby is not for Blacks.” Or when Doc Craven said there will never be a Black men in a Springbok jersey. Freedom of speech I guess is a right to be a racist or a fascist in a way etc. You got to love it.
25 Oct 2010, 20:36 pm
156. Peter Mkata(Peter Mkata): peter, respectfully, your comment sounds like an attempt to shut down the debate that is going on here.
in fact, i have read nothing racial from either side beyond the normal banter.
but you storm in throwing the bigot, racism etc card like a drunk at the world series of poker?
no man. the point is that we ALL have the right to disagree and debate issues.
me? i think “transformation” is a wishy washy load of bullshi t that cannot be adequately measured or even defined, even by its staunchest supporters.
but thats just my opinion. whats yours?
25 Oct 2010, 20:39 pm
just a quick question here chaps.
if the Eagles somehow gain promotion and ep stay down, will the eagles be the flag bearer for eastern/southern cape rugby?
will they be the posterboys for transformation?
if not, why not?
25 Oct 2010, 20:39 pm
HG@155
“pure ability and form” means exactly that, there is no other definition. Right now, there is no way that the Bulls or WP for that matter can clearly say, thats the case with their structures
25 Oct 2010, 20:39 pm
rangerman my opinion is the sharks are gonna win
25 Oct 2010, 20:40 pm
My earlier quote on Transformation from Stalin seems to be the most practical definition…
25 Oct 2010, 20:42 pm
is it because bevin fortuin attended bok trials?
25 Oct 2010, 20:42 pm
@158, Ranger.
The EP/Kings are they posterboys for transformation in your mind?
25 Oct 2010, 20:44 pm
156. PETER MKATA(PETER MKATA): Lets try with you.
What is transformation?
How do you measure it? i.e. pertinent considering “the pace of transformation is too slow”
25 Oct 2010, 20:45 pm
HG
To make things easy for you, take my example on post 100, now use that in rugby and bob is your mum’s brother. A transformed team is achieved, case closed.
25 Oct 2010, 20:46 pm
156 Perception and reality is the point I was driving in my contribution. You have defined your transformation, that is your perception of transformation. Whether it is a reality/fact or not is another issue.
Ps. I am not ever going to stop people expressing their opinion. The Mandela analogy is just an example which you are free to agree and disagree. Nazis killed Jews and obviously in their view/perception were right up until they were shown otherwise. Sad part is that millions perished before then.
25 Oct 2010, 20:48 pm
159. XhosaKid(XhosaKid): please expand on this oh non-tribal kid of a non tribe.
160. sharks_lover(sharks_lover): eish, i am not very confident mate. but i am sure it would be sweet for you living in CT now
HG- on todays evidence, no one is quite sure wtf transformation means. Xhosakid tells us the warriors are transformed because “everyone has an equal chance at selection now”. Everyone?
surely not?
the chappies working on an abalone farm in haga haga for minimum wage having attended a barefoot farm school have an equal chance of playing for the warriors as the young white kid?
astounding! how did they do it?
25 Oct 2010, 20:51 pm
159. XHOSAKID(XHOSAKID): you said “purely ON ability and form”…
So are the Sharks fully transformed?
Which South African rugby team is fully transformed?
Can something be “fully” transformed? That is, is Transformation completable?
What determines whether something is transformed or is in the “process” of transformation?
What is the “process”…?
To me it seems that transformation is more an article of faith with many definitions…?
25 Oct 2010, 20:54 pm
163. XhosaKid(XhosaKid): no.
they are a bunch of rugby playing kids from different backgrounds. like the bulls.
but the bulls havent been dancing the anc/absa tapdance now have they?
166. Peter Mkata(Peter Mkata): uhm…nazis and jews. after the first post i thought you may have got my none too subtle point about attempting to shut down debate but it looks like your answer was to simply up the ante (to keep with the poker theme ya dig?).
i notice you didnt give your idea of transformation wether it is reality/fact or not Peter?
oh well, another wasted opportunity for us to look into each others eyes as equals and have an honest discussion goes down the drain.
pity.
25 Oct 2010, 20:55 pm
transformation…
what is it with you continually denigrating ghanaians?
if you trying to get a jibe at me you are missing something.
you simply make yourself look vindictive.
25 Oct 2010, 20:57 pm
HG – when obejectives are achieved(political) its over when its over, until the power that be(eee) are satisfied. Thats the SA version! I understand where you are going with this! Like your reasoning!
25 Oct 2010, 20:57 pm
fully transformed?
sheesh, how do you achieve that scorecard?
it definately isnt just by filling up at engen and having someone from the mvelaphanda group clean your office.
no, this is far more serious than that.
once you get that stamp though, being white is actually cool again.
xhosakid, maybe you can give us a list of “fully transformed” organisations so one day, i can tell my daughter where to apply for a job?
25 Oct 2010, 20:58 pm
@167
Jerry Nqolo and Siyamthanda Tshona have the same chance at playing for the Warriors as Colin Ackerman, google these kid’s background, then you will realize what I mean about a Transformed team.
Again, I repeat, if cricket in KZN was not transformed, Dave Miller wouldnt have broken through the ranks, there would have been a litany “quota” players whether they be white or black is neither here nor there.
25 Oct 2010, 20:58 pm
164 Heavens G
I do not know what you are driving at but I have my suspision which I will keep to myself. Many people have given you their version of transformation which any reasonable person will understand.
Were you born in South Africa? Where have you been all these years? Under some boulders hibernating or was your head stuck in some kind of sand. Rhetorical question. Guess that is my perception of you. Correct or not another issue!!
25 Oct 2010, 20:59 pm
the answer is a circle!
25 Oct 2010, 21:00 pm
170. charo – the wp giant(charo): transformation is our resident closet xenophobe.
he vehemently defended khompela and co’s handling of the beast issue.
25 Oct 2010, 21:01 pm
167. RANGERMAN(RANGERMAN): Fark, when you really search for the truth it can never be found…? Even from someone who is named “Transformation”…?
Ja, I don’t quiet get an “equal chance” based “purely” on ability and form…
On that basis, every team is bugg.ered because nobody really is selected “purely” on “ability” and “form”… Anywhere in the world…
This “equal chance” could mean 50/50 or 100/0…Zero sum game or just plain average halfway mark.
Eish….
25 Oct 2010, 21:05 pm
174. PETER MKATA(PETER MKATA): I am as much African as you are depending on what definition you would like to use…?
However I did ask you some questions which now seem to indicate that I am “suspicious”…
Does the fact that I ask for a definition of transformation indicate that I am not transformed or have not “changed mindset”?
Is suspicion the first indicator of the non-transformed or untransformed?
25 Oct 2010, 21:07 pm
Gents, I have just realized that I have wasted time in trying to help get us ( South Africans) moving forward and understanding what a transformed team would be, only to realize that you okes are exactly the reason we will never move forward.
It is official, I’ll keep to my counsel when it comes to transformation conversations with you lot.
25 Oct 2010, 21:08 pm
171. ZANDBERG JANSEN(ZANDBERG JANSEN): Questions are dangerous… They provoke “suspicion”….
25 Oct 2010, 21:09 pm
173. XhosaKid(XhosaKid): sorry man. i dont buy it.
the simple fact is that more privileged kids with better access to sporting facilities, nutrition and training will always be in the majority when it comes to representation.
now if even one of you transformation spin artists had articulated the IDEA of transformation properly ie:
to ensure that there is access to the same OPPORTUNITY by ALL in terms of both coaching and nutrition as well as chance to represent at a higher level in the chosen sport…
i still would have said bullsh it. life is not like that, the world is not like that and south africa will NEVER be like that. so i will teach my child to run faster, swim harder, leap higher, learn more, ask more questions, take advantage of the opportunities she has and ALWAYS try to be the best.
because thats life.
175. Zandberg Jansen(Zandberg Jansen): or a see saw?
25 Oct 2010, 21:12 pm
177. Heavens Game(Heavens Game): its just another wooly liberal catchphrase that is simply impossible to put into practice and simply drags the entire society down a few notches instead of facillitating excellence by engendering competition and thirst for victory.
to me it is insidiously creeping logic imbued with the losers cry “its so unfair!”
25 Oct 2010, 21:13 pm
Ranger @181
Do the Sharks have any injuries this coming weekend?
25 Oct 2010, 21:16 pm
179. XhosaKid(XhosaKid): sorry to dissapoint mate but to be honset, robust debate is kinda good surely?
as much as i hate the very idea of transformation in sport (because i dont view it as a black white thing but rather as a threat to merit, be the sportsperson black or white) it does not mean i hate the person who does believ in it.
my folks have some pretty quirky notions too but i still dig the oldies
25 Oct 2010, 21:17 pm
179. XHOSAKID(XHOSAKID: Why are “you” okes the reason “we” will never move forward?
- Who is the “you”? Why?
- Who is the “we”? Why?
- What is “forward”? Progress? If so how do you define progress in this instance? Is Progress = transformation?
Do questions also invoke a feeling of “suspicion” from you?
Maybe I am being unfair in asking someone to define transformation to me: It seems there is no single answer…
Would love to ask Fatty von Zeuner though – He seemed to think the pace of transformation was not adequate… He must know…
25 Oct 2010, 21:18 pm
183. XhosaKid(XhosaKid): mate, i actually dont know.
i dont think so though. but your side, wp, looks like the real deal to me.
then again, maybe its the pessimist in me but i also thought my beloved sharkies would lose against the bulls.
i hope its a cracker and i am sure it will be.
25 Oct 2010, 21:20 pm
185. Heavens Game(Heavens Game): shhhhhh…..if you mention someone with the name von zeuner we are sure to hear about nnazis and jews again.
sounds like a boardgame actually..nazis and jews, the final edition.
25 Oct 2010, 21:20 pm
179. XhosaKid(XhosaKid):
kudos to you for at least fronting up and giving your honest viewpoint.
181. rangerman(rangerman):
happens in every country in the world…from usa to haiti.
there will always be kids in a better position to excel.
even in the microcosm of ghana – the haves and have-nots are worlds apart
25 Oct 2010, 21:22 pm
170. CHARO – THE WP GIANT(CHARO): fyi i know and grew up & studied with a lot of ghanaians and they are nothing like the subservient natives you always portray on this blog. It might be off the cuff banter to you but it betrays exactly who you are. I told you before that i’ll always respect you but i’ll never be cowered to subscribe to your ideas because of some ingrained idea in your mind that you know better
176. RANGERMAN(RANGERMAN): yawn saru broke south african law by allowing tendai mtawarira to play for the Springboks without him meeting the requirements for residency! What is xenophobic about that? Hambo kunya!
25 Oct 2010, 21:26 pm
182. RANGERMAN(RANGERMAN): Yeah, there is a definite woolliness to the concept of “transformation” as shown by 5 different answers from 3 different people…
It only seems to give more questions that are impossible to interrogate without coming across as “suspicious”…
Maybe transformation is an article of faith for better things… Conversely is could be a euphemism for command and control…? which one is determined by the “correct” “mindset”…
I wonder who determines “who” is “correct” and which “mindset” is the appropriate one to have?
Jeez, I am more confused than old Charo – the poor bugg.er has been accused of being two diametrically different things by 2 different people…
25 Oct 2010, 21:27 pm
189. Transformation(Transformation): it was high profile politicking and you know it pal.
but one day when your mind has transformed and you have realised that these colonial boundaries are insignificant and wholly illusory constructs you will understand.
viva Beast viva!
25 Oct 2010, 21:31 pm
187. RANGERMAN(RANGERMAN): lol… Ja maybe you can make a boardgame called “Transformation”… More challenging than the Rubik cube..
25 Oct 2010, 21:35 pm
189. Transformation(Transformation):
since when does the term “decent” transform into the meaning “subservient”
only in your mind it seems?
treat people with respect and they will respond accordingly.
is that a foreign notion to you?
25 Oct 2010, 21:38 pm
191. RANGERMAN(RANGERMAN): hahahaha, the funny thing i said at the time i know of a candidate attorney, studied at rhodes, passed very well, got articles at a reputable firm but couldn’t be admitted because he was zimbabwean and the firm was under pressure from the law society & government to open up the spot for a saffa kid that might be needing articles.
The dude applied for citizenship – his application took TWO years to be approved! It wasn’t expedited by home affairs at the behest of the sports mininster acting on the pleas of sa rugby!
It is the law!
But play however you want…no sking off my back..
25 Oct 2010, 21:39 pm
187. RANGERMAN(RANGERMAN): The new boardgame – “Finding Transformation”, more difficult to find than spotting a Leopard at night in Zululand…
25 Oct 2010, 21:40 pm
Ranger @186
Whether Province win or Sharks win, will be determined by who wins the breakdown collisions, in the S14, the Sharks were simply superior and Dewald Duvenhage bottled.
25 Oct 2010, 21:41 pm
Finally, that hated man of SA rugby, by some of our compatriots, is the cause of all this transformation talk. Cheeky Watson is his name. Kings/Queens is doing well all of a sudden thus the talk of transformation posterboys. Nothing wrong in expressing your opinion but people will make their interpretation like Mandela was called a terrorist at some stage in our lives. Opinion/perception/fact/reality is another issue.
25 Oct 2010, 21:42 pm
193. CHARO – THE WP GIANT(CHARO): what did i just say to you? Do you feel disrespected?
I really don’t know what you’re after
25 Oct 2010, 21:43 pm
194. Transformation(Transformation)
are you saying that a sports minister had influence on the citizenship of a zim candidate attorney?
sounds a bit far fetched…no?
25 Oct 2010, 21:43 pm
I wonder how you would act out “Transformation” in Pictionary…?
25 Oct 2010, 21:45 pm
197. PETER MKATA(PETER MKATA): Is Cheeky “transformed” .i.e. Does he have the “correct mindset”…? Is he a transformative force/agent/example?
25 Oct 2010, 21:51 pm
200. HEAVENS GAME(HEAVENS GAME): Maybe indicate a big question mark with the hand, then scratch your head looking confused followed by giving this intense look of suspicion… That would do it for me…
25 Oct 2010, 21:52 pm
202. HEAVENS GAME(HEAVENS GAME): or just try and act as if you are Josef Stalin… He defines transformation quite well I think…
25 Oct 2010, 21:57 pm
199. CHARO – THE WP GIANT(CHARO): no, i am saying the candidate attorney didn’t have oregan hoskins begging makhenkesi stofile to fasttrack his application like tendai mtawarira did! He followed south african law to the letter which is what is expected of everyone else whether they!re trying to emigrate to new zealand or australia!
Britain, last year or sometime passed a law that all saffas need visas to enter the united kingdom because of the bungles @ home affairs. Now some saffas might not like that but it is british law and we have to abide by it! Period.
Saru f*cked up in the Beast issue and that’s it, i could care less if he is the ‘beast’!
25 Oct 2010, 22:00 pm
Transformation
Do yourself a favour, I gave HG a “model” of what transformation means, instead of using it, he chose to argue from a theoretical point of view.
I could have used Moroka Swallows of the late 80′s, that team had the likes of Noel Cousins, Les Grobler, Owen da Gamma, Andy Sensic, Nelson Castro, Graham Louw in its starting line up, yet the entire fan base was black and not a single person questioned the merit of the team( the black fans were fully transformed, they understood what merit was). That was a fully transformed side, funny that was a team from Dube in Soweto made up of white guys with just three black guys being able to make it into the starting line up, this occurred at the height of Apartheid.
25 Oct 2010, 22:04 pm
200 Heavens g
I am listening to a beautiful song, Weeping, originally composed by Vusi Mahlasela. It is perfomed in collaboration with Josh Groban. You must listen to it when you have the time. Have a funny feeling that Vusi had you in mind when he wrote it. Beautiful song though.
25 Oct 2010, 22:05 pm
205. XHOSAKID(XHOSAKID): did you forget calvin petersien on purpose
i hear you chap, HG is a funny dude
25 Oct 2010, 22:13 pm
207. Transformation
I forgot Calvin “Mkhonto” Petersien!!! or Roger De sa on the bench. Those were the great days for the team affectionately called “Inyoni zase Dube”.
So I chose not to give him this example and gave him a modern example in a sport he should know but instead of applying his mind, he chooses to protract a drawn out argument on definitions rather than use a practical example for understanding.
25 Oct 2010, 22:14 pm
205. XHOSAKID(XHOSAKID): well as peter mkata said, everyone has freedom to gaan aan, it doesn’t meam we have to take them seriously.
25 Oct 2010, 22:24 pm
if a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts; but if he will be content to begin with doubts, he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon,1561-1626
night chaps, go sharks!
p.s. transie, who you calling punk, punk?
25 Oct 2010, 22:24 pm
Trans, isn’t it funny that we are trying to get your average white rugby fan’s mind to be well developed to be at the same level your average soccer fan was back in the 80′s.
Watching “king of the Hill”, Hank reminds me of Tacitus
!!!
25 Oct 2010, 22:25 pm
Eita!!, Ranger
25 Oct 2010, 22:28 pm
200 Heavens Game
This article will serve as adefition of TRANSFORMATION. Read it.
EP calls for huge crowd to back bid for big time
2010/10/25
Chumani Bambani bambanic@avusa.co.za
THE EP Kings are aiming for a full house of red and black supporters when they face the Pumas in a do-or-die clash at the Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium on Friday.
Victory for the Kings – who drew the first-leg encounter 36-36 in Witbank at the weekend – will see them promoted to the Currie Cup Premier Division and the return of big-time rugby to Port Elizabeth.
Calls for support came from the EP Rugby Union yesterday.
“The home factor will be very important,” said coach Alan Solomons.
“We have had great support from the people of the region – people from Port Elizabeth, Uitenhage, Despatch and other surrounding areas.
“We are hoping – and are quite confident in fact – that the stadium will be jampacked as people will be there to give the boys the extra boost,” Solomons said.
EP president Cheeky Watson said busloads of supporters had travelled to Witbank to cheer on the side on Friday and the side was “most grateful” for the away support.
For the return game at home, he urged fans to arrive and create the “biggest crowd” the Kings had experienced.
Watson said there was nothing stopping the stadium seating more fans than there were during the British and Irish Lions ruby tour. That figure was 35800.
Tickets are available from today at a number of outlets at R30 for adults and R10 for children, with free entry for children under the age of six.
Outlets are Computicket, Money Market counters at Checkers and Shoprite stores, the EPRU Stadium offices, Brian Bands Sports, Action Sports, The Footballer & Sports, and Brockett’s Sports, Uitenhage.
25 Oct 2010, 22:29 pm
211. XHOSAKID(XHOSAKID): Tacitus is being chased by snoop dogg the pimp
25 Oct 2010, 22:29 pm
= definition
25 Oct 2010, 22:36 pm
213. Peter Mkata(Peter Mkata):
good to see the epru following the mighty sharks template when building support for their team.
cheers guys… it was a very stimulating discussion tonight.
keep well
25 Oct 2010, 22:41 pm
where are ET & Sodajoe? Leeds United 0 Cardiff City 4 @ Allen rd. Damn!!!!!
25 Oct 2010, 22:47 pm
elland rd…
25 Oct 2010, 23:03 pm
hi all…
just a quick note before i hit the sack… long day…
hey peter…
weeping is an awesome song… one of SA’s best ever…
but it wasn’t written by Vusi, it was written by Dan Heymann of the rock band Bright Blue…
From his website http://www.weeping.info...
“I’m Dan Heymann, and I wrote the words and music of “Weeping” during the mid-1980′s
when I was an unwilling soldier, drafted into the army of South Africa’s white-supremacist regime.
I now live in New York City.”
Here are the lyrics…
WEEPING
Written by Dan Heymann
(Copyright Bright Blue)
I knew a man who lived in fear
It was huge, it was angry, it was drawing near
Behind his house, a secret place
Was the shadow of the demon he could never face
He built a wall of steel and flame
And men with guns, to keep it tame
Then standing back, he made it plain
That the nightmare would never ever rise again
But the fear and the fire and the guns remain
It doesn’t matter now
It’s over anyhow
He tells the world that it’s sleeping
But as the night came round
I heard its lonely sound
It wasn’t roaring, it was weeping
And then one day the neighbors came
They were curious to know about the smoke and flame
They stood around outside the wall
But of course there was nothing to be heard at all
“My friends,” he said, “We’ve reached our goal
The threat is under firm control
As long as peace and order reign
I’ll be damned if I can see a reason to explain
Why the fear and the fire and the guns remain”
25 Oct 2010, 23:06 pm
seems some people were transformed…
even way back then…
cheers all…
over and out…!!
25 Oct 2010, 23:17 pm
anyone wanting to know what is transformation here it is staring you in the eye
2 years ago this site was pretty much almost run and manipulated largely by the broederbond and now you have open debate amongst those who were even then 14 years after demise of apartheid still marginalized on rugby blogs such as these
Now they are here enjoining and enjoying in open participation and discussion in absolute equal measure
so that to some extent is transformation, deny it if you must, but its a reality.
Pity the broederbond chose rather to run duck and hide than to stay and be a part of it, the loss and detriment is only theirs, and none other.
25 Oct 2010, 23:20 pm
Transformation is simply the changing of one thing into another. In this case, the changing of a white dominated sport (with a long history of racism) into a sport that is truly non-racial.
It has absolutely nothing to do with mediocrity. In fact, the complete opposite when truly non-racial. A non-racial side makes it possible (not a certainty) for a side to develop/draw from the entire population at it’s disposal and likewise to be supported by the same cross section of the population. If that means 15 white guys or 15 black guys so be it. There was opportunity for all (within reason)to be developed and selected.
However, their is no perfectly transformed “target” or set of rules and unfortunately there never can be. We are dealing with people, history, winning and losing and we all have our own “target” of what we believe a fully transformed team/union should look like and whether we like it or not, those on the receiving end of racism will always view many of the dodgy decisions made by SARU and our unions with a whole lot of suspicion.
Any attempt to insist on a perfectly detailed 100% accurate definition of “transformation” is disengenious and more a reflection on HG and Charo etc’s view on politics in general than on any real desire for a quantifiable target for them to work towards.
Cheeky and his merry men have an idea of what they see as a transformed rugby union. Yes, it’s flawed,they are human. But they are working their butts off trying to make it work with very little support and a whole lot of opposition.
So instead waxing lyrical about the lack of a mystical perfect definition of transformation, what are rugby lovers around the country and on this blog doing to achieve at least a consensus level of change.
I can quite see how dissing EP and Cheeky Watson could be seen as a major contributor to this change. As for me, I’m going to the stadium on Friday night to hopefully see another step in the dream come true.
26 Oct 2010, 03:25 am
There’s nothing vaguely, remotely “non-racial” about ANY set-up which employs race quotas.
Ergo, “transformation” really isn’t changing from a racist system to a non-racial one.
It’s moving from racist Plan A to racist Plan B.
26 Oct 2010, 03:36 am
223. I guess the argument would be that if it didn’t move to Plan B things would never move on from Plan A.
26 Oct 2010, 05:24 am
BH, I think the point is not about Plan A and Plan B as much as the word in front of it…
26 Oct 2010, 05:29 am
Hi UFO
Thanks for the correction. Do you think Heavens Game will have a better understanding of transformation after going through those words?
Powerful words I must say. A transformed man indeed!!!
26 Oct 2010, 05:37 am
222 Infidel
No reasonable will disagree with you. Well stated. Good luck on Friday night, pity cannot be there. Will be flying to South America over the weekend.
Just hope Rangerman and Heavens game see this explanation of transformation.
26 Oct 2010, 06:49 am
227. PETER MKATA(PETER MKATA): they’ll see it, pick it apart & ridicule it
that’s their mo. It has nothing to do with actually understanding the aim it to make gat…
26 Oct 2010, 07:26 am
the problem with those like Tackler and fastfarstingbart is they still stuck in racist plan A and or B they haven’t evolved one little bit, that’s why they both discontented dissociated expatriots who couldn’t cut it in the real world of transformation.
26 Oct 2010, 07:44 am
Tell me skop, do you get a kick out of making degrading comments about other people on a public forum? I got you the first time, you don’t like me, I really get it. Now please move on and keep your foul mouth to yourself in future.
26 Oct 2010, 08:17 am
don’t dislike you at all Koosie just can’t help myself calling it as I see it
But you a good sort deep down, when the ideology gets shelved, worked that much out too
26 Oct 2010, 08:20 am
skopskiet het jy nou weer te veel dagga oor jou pap gestrooi vanoggend??
26 Oct 2010, 08:24 am
Well skop, maybe you should look again and make sure before shouting off at the mouth…because the way you ‘see it’ may be well off the mark.
Your delivery also su cks…
26 Oct 2010, 08:33 am
all these people shouting racist quotas and A and B racists while they sitting in some far of Grandwannaland in pristine havens of cut off expatriation sure speaks volumes for having conquered the devil called transformation don’t it just. Funny thing is they all white Europeans, that in itself shouts it out even louder..
26 Oct 2010, 08:46 am
Jaaaa skop, I am not lus for a fight today. Suffice to say you should come and visit one day and I can introduce you to some of my Saffa friends over here, they will be very surprised to hear you calling them white Europeans…
26 Oct 2010, 08:51 am
222. INFIDEL(INFIDEL): “Any attempt to insist on a perfectly detailed 100% accurate definition of “transformation” is disengenious and more a reflection on HG and Charo etc’s view on politics in general than on any real desire for a quantifiable target for them to work towards.”
- Look, there does not seem to be a universal definition for transformation, maybe a rugby site is the wrong place to ask people notwithstanding the ever present imperative for “transformation in rugby”. However there are a few people that portray themselves here as transformation oracles… I then asked them for a working definition of transformation – after much bluster and evasion I did get some “explanations” (5 different ones from 3 different people) – not definitions however and certainly not “working” definitions…
- By asking these questions I have been viewed with “suspicion”, being called a bigot and now am told by you that I have “reflected my view on politics” in general…
So lets look at being a bigot – A bigot is a person intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, irrationality, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs.
I would like to know how I have shown intolerance in the comments on this thread, on the other hand those who hold the “knowledge” of what transformation is have shown less than tolerance for these pesky questions…
The irrationality of the all encompassing term “transformation” as used on Keo is clear – Nobody can define it, everybody has a different idea of what it is, but everyone talks about it…
The animosity for my comments are also clear even though I have actually not shown any different beliefs in asking what “transformation” is….
Finally, since you say that this is a reflection on my politics in general – can you tell me what my politics are…?
26 Oct 2010, 08:53 am
234. SKOPSKIET(YLIAD): Can you define transformation, mlungu? Are you transformed or are you transforming?
I won’t hold my breath….
26 Oct 2010, 08:59 am
205. XHOSAKID(XHOSAKID): A model? How do you get a “model” if you do not know what it is you are “modelling”…? However your examples you have given are illuminating and you deserve credit for putting yourself out there…
On evidence, Transformation is very subjective though…
26 Oct 2010, 09:03 am
213. PETER MKATA(PETER MKATA): The take away from that article is that transformation is having the support of all the people in the region…?
The Bulls have the support of all the people in their region, dont they…?
26 Oct 2010, 09:15 am
206. PETER MKATA(PETER MKATA): I think “weeping” is a soppy, treacly, sentimental song… The fact that Groban is using it only highlights its pretentiousness…
Heres one to my liking:
41 shots
41 shots
41 shots
41 shots
41 shots
41 shots
41 shots
41 shots and we’ll take that ride
41 shots
41 shots
41 shots
Lena gets her son ready for school
She says now on these streets Charles
You got to understand the rules
Promise me if an officer stops you’ll allways be polite
Never ever run away and promise momma you’ll keep your hands in sight
Cause is it a gun?
Is it a knife?
Is it a wallet?
This is your life
It ain’t no secret
It ain’t no secret
The secret my friend
You can get killed just for living in your American skin
41 shots
41 shots
41 shots
Across this bloody river to the other side
41 shots they cut through the night
You’re kneeling over his body in the vestibule
Praying for his life
Is it a gun?
Is it a knife?
Is it a wallet?
This is your life
It ain’t no secret
It ain’t no secret
Ain’t no secret my friend
You can get killed just for living in your American skin
41 shots
41 shots
41 shots
Lena gets her son ready for school
She says now on these streets Charles
You got to understand the rules
Promise me if an officer stops you’ll always be polite
Never ever run away and promise momma you’ll keep your hands in sight
Cause is it a gun?
Is it a knife?
Is it a wallet?
This is your life
It ain’t no secret in getting killed just for living in your American skin
41 shots
41 shots
41 shots
Is it a gun?
Is it a knife?
Is it a wallet?
This is your life
It ain’t no secret
It ain’t no secret
It ain’t no secret
41 shots and we’ll take that ride
Across this bloody river to the other side
41 shots my boots caked in mud
We’re baptized in these waters and in each other’s blood
It ain’t no secretIs it a knife?
Is it a wallet?
This is your life
It ain’t no secret
It ain’t no secret
The secret my friend
You can get killed just for living in
You can get killed just for living in
You can get killed just for living in your American skin
41 shots
41 shots
41 shots
41 shots
41 shots
41 shots
41 shots
41 shots
Just a subjective matter of taste and the transformation police cant dictate my taste in music yet I’m afraid…
26 Oct 2010, 10:12 am
HG @238
You look at the resultant of the “model”. Resultant being defined as a final point of a process.
26 Oct 2010, 13:02 pm
Moving from racist plan A (the frying pan) into racist plan B (the fire) just isn’t a sensible transformation at all. You’d might as well stay in the frying pan for all the difference it’ll make.
26 Oct 2010, 17:12 pm
glad to see absa not renewing their sponsorship deal with the racist sharks rugby union….that’s now transformation for you!
27 Oct 2010, 01:38 am
Perhaps it’s Sharks RU refusing to accept sponsorship from the racist ABSA…
27 Oct 2010, 03:57 am
“…Solomons, like he did when he was at UCT, Western Province and Ulster, relied on passion and a work ethic that has never failed and never ceased to amaze those around him….”
Airbrushed out that total fiasco at Northants?
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