Balance key in back row composition
3 Nov 2010
RYAN VREDE writes that Pierre Spies and Juan Smith’s selection in the loose trio necessitates the inclusion of Deon Stegmann.
Spies, consistently good in the Super 14, failed to replicate that form at Test level in 2010. However, coach Peter de Villiers remained unfailingly loyal to him and is fully expected to name him as his starting No 8 for their tour opening Test against Ireland on Saturday.
Spies, in five Tests in the northern hemisphere, has never recovered from his first – a nightmare display against Ireland in 2006. The Heathrow international arrivals hall seems to sap his power, rendering him a relative passenger. That he arrived this time with a fractured confidence after an indifferent Test season doesn’t aid his cause.
Spies is at his most potent when part of the game plan is geared towards engineering attacking opportunities in space for him. Admittedly, part of his failings can be attributed to the team’s inability to do this consistently. But Spies must (and would have given the high standard he expects of himself) take the bulk of the responsibility for his relative attacking impotency.
Equally he needs to assert himself more defensively. It continues to a personal point of frustration that none of his coaches have adequately taught him good tackle technique because a player with his upper body strength has the potential to be deployed as a defensive weapon, dominating tackle situations and whereby creating opportunities for turnovers. At present he is no more an a bulky obstruction.
Smith’s value cannot be overstated and was in full evidence upon his return to the Springboks’ back row for the home leg of the Tri-Nations. He is a banker at the gain line and defends with brutality that makes you cringe. His performance in those facets of play will be decisive to how the Springboks fare on tour.
However, balance is key in the back row, and with Spies and Smith tasked with making metres and blunting Ireland at the collisions (as well as the secondary roles as lineout jumpers), it is essential that the Springboks start with a specialist openside flank. Stegmann has the qualities that complement the aforementioned duo.
Certainly there is the legitimate concern that Stegmann is not match fit, having missed the bulk of the Currie Cup through injury. However, injuries and the perplexing omission of Francois Louw (he would have been my pick to start at No 6) means Stegmann is the only choice.
It would be a grave tactical error to deploy any of the other options – Ryan Kankowski, Keegan Daniel or Willem Alberts – there. While all three are undoubtedly gifted, none are as skilled at slowing the recycle or stealing the ball as Stegmann is. A player of this ilk has been at the heart of most defensively sound sides, allowing the line to set by ensuring that the ball emerges from the ruck slowly. In addition, teams often profit from turnovers created by these men.
Stegmann won’t offer the Springboks an additional potential metre maker with ball in hand, but they have an enough of those for him not to be a liability in this regard. Neither is he going to reverse anyone in contact, but again, there are those equipped to do so.
He has allowed Spies to play a looser role at the Bulls, South Africa’s most successful franchise, who’ve consistently deployed a specialist openside flank in the last four years (Wikus van Heerden preceded Stegmann in the role). He would now provide the same opportunities for him with the Springboks, and given that the forecast is for clear skies over the revamped Lansdowne Road, Spies could be a factor.
Balance is essential when constructing the back row, and it is an area where the Springboks’ coaching staff have consistently failed this season, following the premature axing of Louw. They cannot make that mistake again. Stegmann’s time is now.
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*Check out my lighthearted take on the Springbok squad selection and their chances against Ireland on the Telegraph’s (UK) blog – http://my.telegraph.co.uk/rugby/ryanvrede/478/peter-de-villiers-must-pick-patrick-lambie-as-springboks-full-back-but-he-wont/
291 Comments
3 Nov 2010, 10:27 am
Go Steggies Dragon! Where’s Agile?
3 Nov 2010, 10:34 am
“Spies, consistently good in the Super 14, failed to replicate that form at Test level in 2010.”
If Spies was good in the S14, then Duanne Vermeulen was great.
And in my book, a good player should be confined to playing S14 and CC. Great players play test rugby
3 Nov 2010, 10:35 am
Keo youth league are not going to like this one little bit.
I expect to see Mighty Tortilla leading the charge.
3 Nov 2010, 10:37 am
@Frankly speaking(Frankly speaking) :
frankly you are getting ahead of yourself here.
vermullet played in two finals this year and was owned in both of them.
what makes you think he was great?
3 Nov 2010, 10:39 am
@gunther(gunther) :
3 Nov 2010, 10:40 am
Agreed. Daniel or Stegmann at 6. I would go with Daniel he is the form player at the moment. Stegmann to come on at half-time or 60 minutes into the game.
3 Nov 2010, 10:40 am
I agree that a fetcher should be there. But Spies! No a chance. Stegmann, Alberts and Smith.
3 Nov 2010, 10:40 am
@gunther(gunther) :
Who are the members? Can I take a guess? Mighty, Transie, Ross, Skoppie? G10 maybe?
And who would be the Afri-forum members here? Tac? Hondo? Quotas Sux?
And PissAnt? Would he be the Vavi of the blog? Or the Zille?
3 Nov 2010, 10:41 am
I agree that the Boks need a guy who plays to the ball and slows opposition ruck ball down. I don’t agree that Stegmann is the best call. I’d have gone with Flouw, Smith and Alberts at 6,7 and 8 respectively. Daniel and Kankowski provide plenty of energy off the bench, and Spies should be rested with along with Burger.
3 Nov 2010, 10:45 am
I’m very much in favour of playing Spies on Sat….BUT on the following conditions:
1. He borrows another heart…a BIG heart. He should understand that someone with his built should be afraid of contact here and there.
2. He spent his off time with tackle bags…24/7
3. He has by some miracle learned to read a game. To be at the right place at the right time. I admire his ability to always be the guy who arrives JUST too late after sth has happened…..a tackle was made etc.
Except for that…….great no8!
3 Nov 2010, 10:45 am
To be fair Kanko was great in the Super 14 and we all know what he does a test level.
3 Nov 2010, 10:45 am
@Taahirah(Taahirah) :
Pissant would be Tony Leon.
The quiet insistent voice of reason
3 Nov 2010, 10:45 am
*SIGH*
Spies’ inability to defend is more a mental thing than a technique thing. I was amazed to see in the Bulls – Sharks semi how he consciously avoided being the first person to make contact on defense. He would run past the point of contact and then get stuck in when there are two or three of his team mates present. He is scared of contact – always has been and always will be.
Look carefully at how he makes contact with his hands first rather than with the shoulder – you have to hit with the shoulder while at the same time wrapping your arms around the ball carrier. He does not do it. He first makes impact with his hands – trying to soften the impact and then brings the player to ground. By that time the attacker has gained about three yards. Just not good enough for an international loose forward. Give me Alberts or Vermeulen any day.
3 Nov 2010, 10:48 am
@Couchcoach(GI POT) : You said it all.
3 Nov 2010, 10:48 am
@gunther(gunther) : More like the incessantly barking little poodle chasing the gravy train
3 Nov 2010, 10:49 am
@gunther(gunther) : Owned in both of them?
You sound like Tomatoboy with his “WO killed JdJ” statements
Spies is out of form. Normally a player would get dropped or relegated (like Flo, Potgieter) , but PDiv is his biggest fan and persists with starting him.
Whether he was great or not, he sure as hell was better than Assegaai
3 Nov 2010, 10:52 am
@Frankly speaking(Frankly speaking) : Absolutely right. I think PDivvy is on the same ‘roids – could be the reason for his squeaky voice and lack of balls. Who knows, maybe Assegaai is his supplier?
3 Nov 2010, 10:55 am
@Frankly speaking(Frankly speaking) : The only thing WO kills is lice in his hair on weekends!
3 Nov 2010, 10:56 am
@Frankly speaking(Frankly speaking) :
nobody killed anybody.
now stop being sdo embraboer.
honestly you are as predictable as an SABC board meeting.
it was hard to find a player who was more anonymous than vermullet in both games.
even the ballboys were more visible.
yes it’s true.
3 Nov 2010, 10:57 am
@gunther(gunther) :
Tony Leon… Bwahahaha!
Ryan allow me if you will…
How is it the Sharks won the Currie Cup, doing so playing without their recognised fetcher (Botes) for most of the season, and dominating contact, and the tackled area against the Bulls and Province (with your first choice fetcher no less) in the semi’s and final?
I would be fascinated with your view on this…
3 Nov 2010, 10:57 am
Why is it that JDJ gets injured in finals.
The kid has no BMT!
3 Nov 2010, 10:59 am
Good article. Would still prefer Brussouw at 6. A Stegman, Smit Spies combo sounds really balanced, and I would love to see how they perform.
3 Nov 2010, 11:01 am
@Tegejo(Tegejo) : That combo scares me. Spies – enough said. Stegman not matchfit. Looked out of sorts in CC semi.
3 Nov 2010, 11:02 am
@Frankly speaking(Frankly speaking) : Vermeulen was owned by Spies in the SUper 14 final and Alberts in the Currie Cup.
Vermeulen really didn’t have good games in the two finals he played in. Its not completely his fault – the Stormers and WP were dominated in both finals physically and really struggled to get into the game.
3 Nov 2010, 11:07 am
@WOLFMAN21(WOLFMAN21) : So being in the losing team automatically qualifies you as being owned by the opposing teams player in the same position?
Thanks for clearing that up for me
3 Nov 2010, 11:10 am
What has BMT got to do with getting injured?
3 Nov 2010, 11:10 am
@Two Eyed(Two Eyed) : As did the entire Bulls team.
Spies is given time and space to play his game around someone like Stegman and Brussouw. Spies played very well in 2009. Since the injury to Brussouw, he looked tired. After returning to the S14, he played with Steggies and looked in top form again, against the same intl. players that made him look ordinary during the intl. season. When given time and space (which he get from Stegman and Brussouw) he is the most destructive attacking 8 in world rugby.
3 Nov 2010, 11:11 am
@WOLFMAN21(WOLFMAN21) :
laugh
my
white
***
off
would you say he “disappears in tight” games?
(rubs chin knowingly, turns the wors with a deft flick of the braai tongs slurps his amstel and then starts on with another sporting cliche about great bok teams always having a jew in them, maybe throw in another couple of cliches, like their bone density prevents black people from being competitive swimmers.)
3 Nov 2010, 11:12 am
@Frankly speaking(Frankly speaking) : He didn’t have a big influence in either of the two finals. I thought he had a fantastic season, but didn’t have a particularly strong impact in the two finals.
Notice I said that Alberts owned him – the two were largely matched against in each other. The Sharks back row destroyed the WP backrow on Saturday, and that is a major part of the reason why WP lost the final.
3 Nov 2010, 11:13 am
@scrumfan(scrumfan) : Dont cry!
3 Nov 2010, 11:15 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt) : I’ve had the same discussion on the forum before. The ‘fetcher’ roles has been overemphasised and overhyped. As long as you have dominance at the contact point, any one of the closest supporting defensive players has to be the person trying to steal the ball. The skill in this, is the ability to read when that opportunity is. You’d have more opportunities when tackles are effective and dominating.
On another point. Is the return of bigger backline players the way to go? Seems the AB’s are moving in this direction. Seems the ability to offload in the tackle and minimize the ruck count is what they are going for. That style also disrupts defensive alignment.
3 Nov 2010, 11:15 am
@Frankly speaking(Frankly speaking) : In Pretoria, Yes.
3 Nov 2010, 11:16 am
@Tegejo(Tegejo) :
I have stated many times that Spies would be, or still is my first choice 8 – but like Ryan in his article I am concerned that areas of his game as an 8 have been seemingly neglected over the last 3 or so years.
I will go back again to what I said when Italy toured here earlier this year. Compare how Parisse looks world class behind a good (his club) and a bad pack as an 8, and you get an idea what a world class 8 is actually about.
World class athlete, no doubt, world class 8… not if his game is so reliant on other individuals around him to make him look good.
Like Juan Smith, Spies should aim as a player to be the best in the world, no matter who he combines with.
3 Nov 2010, 11:17 am
@WOLFMAN21(WOLFMAN21) : I dont’ think he was owned. His tight forwards were owned and he couldn’t play his game. Would any of the incumbent 8′s have done better?
3 Nov 2010, 11:17 am
@pompies2(pompies2) :
I have found the fascination with opensiders in union quite amusing for a number of years now.
3 Nov 2010, 11:18 am
@Frankly speaking(Frankly speaking) :
being on the losing team does not mean you get owned.
however in both instances thats what happened.
poor dwane didn’t know whether he was arthur or marthur… or bruce
3 Nov 2010, 11:19 am
hie all, knew here, but I’ll get straight to the point.
Burger, louw,& Vermulean – outplayed in two finals in a row by Stegmann, Potgeiter, & Spies, then by Daniel, Alberts, & Kankowski.
The most balanced backrow would be Stegmann, Smith, Spies/Alberts (depending on the latters fitness & expected conditions) bench Daniel & Alberts/Spies.
3 Nov 2010, 11:19 am
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid) :
you mean tshwane.
stop being a coconut.
next thing you will be supporting the bulls to impress your white colleagues
3 Nov 2010, 11:20 am
@pompies2(pompies2) : I don’t know because they didn’t play the game. You are very defensive of him – just because he had a bad game doesn’t mean you need to take the posters of him off your wall.
I am not hating on the guy, I am just saying that he didn’t have the same influence in the two finals he has played in this year as he had in other games.
I would have selected him for the Boks ahead of Daniel, Kankowski and Spies. It is strange that such a consistently player isn’t selected, when Daniel is selected after a half season of good Currie Cup rugby.
3 Nov 2010, 11:24 am
@WOLFMAN21(WOLFMAN21) : Not true. An combination of factors influenced the result.
1. The sharks prep
2. Januaries injury
3. De Jongs injury
4. Scrum dominance
5. Bissie in contact situations
6. Lambies goalkicking
7. De Waal’s hopeless display
So all in all, a deserved victory by the Sharks. I thought the backrows were evenly matched. No real standout. Schalk was most busy, without end result. Flo did well @ the breakdowns, but fighting a losing battle. Alberts was well marked and his influence wasn’t as big as expected. So all loosies provided a competent display, but the tight 5 is where the hard graft was done.
3 Nov 2010, 11:25 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt) : Its not about his game being reliant on players around him. As a coach, you need to pick the right combinations. When Spies plays with a good fetcher, he is given space and time to unleash bullocking runs, that no other 8 in this country posseses. The difference ONE second makes to your attacking opportunities, at most senior levels, are of the utmost importance. Playing guys getting to the loose slower than Stegman and Brussouw, gives you less time to create opportunities to gain ground through the big men. Simple really.
Please explain to me why Spies looks phenomenal in the S14, playing with Steggies and Potties, but looks so ordinary in a Bok jersey playing with Schalk and Flo. against the same opposition. I’ll tell you. Its because Ludeke picks the right combiations, and Pdivvy doesn’t.
3 Nov 2010, 11:27 am
@Tegejo(Tegejo) :
More than that, let me ask you a question.
What would you rather prefer, an all round world class 8 or an 8 who seemingly only comes into his own with ball in hand in space (created for him by opensiders)?
3 Nov 2010, 11:28 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt) : 36
Yeah, it all started with McAwe, ask Blank Panther.
Just kiddin, Howdy Doody.
3 Nov 2010, 11:29 am
@pompies2(pompies2) : If you think the backrows were matched, you are crazy. The WP backrow was killed. Slaughtered at the break down, destroyed at the tackle point, and annihalted when it came to working as a unit.
Burger was almost murdered by Ludik, and owned by Lambie. He might have been busy, but he wasn’t effective. Same with Flouw – one turnover and 3 or 4 penalties?
3 Nov 2010, 11:30 am
@gunther(gunther) : Shut up!! Gunther, you are going to confuse the “knew” guy
3 Nov 2010, 11:31 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt) : PA, cannot agree more with regards to the openside fascination.
I just shake my head when I read artickles like this stating that players like Daniel, Alberts and Kanko lack the ability on the ground. In the Currie Cup semi and final it sure did not look like the Sharks had any problems at the breakdown?
3 Nov 2010, 11:32 am
I think Steggies still limpimg around with the hammie. And Spies is a certain starter, Alberts is a debutant and battling a niggle. Juan Smith is going to start at 7.
So, it will probably be
8 Spies
7 Juan
6 Daniel
3 Nov 2010, 11:34 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt) : Looking at the Bulls S14 record, I’d go for the latter!
3 Nov 2010, 11:34 am
@WOLFMAN21(WOLFMAN21) : Perhaps you were expecting a certain type of performance from him, which were in your rights to assume, based on his seasons performance, but very seldom has his tight 5 been bossed. I think it happened in the stormers v sharks game earlier in the year as well.
I think he might be unlucky wrt selection, but he lost in a straight shootout with Alberts. I think PDV is looking for a typwe of dynamic 8, hence his reluctance to select vermeulen.
Duanes challenge now is to develope his game where he adapts to backfoot game. It’s might not be easy, but he’ll be a more balanced 8 for it.
3 Nov 2010, 11:35 am
The only deficiency in Spies’s game that concerns me is his technique in the tackle. I agree he uses his arms rather than putting his shoulder into the hit. He will wrap a guy up and leg drive him back, but he will never smash a guy back with his shoulder.
This leads to the attacking player sometimes being able to shift his point of contact off-centre, allowing him to run through the outstretched arm of Spies. This is one area he seriously needs to work on.
As for his ball carrying ability – he is as powerful as Alberts, but with much more pace.
He hasn’t set the world alight this year, but the criticism has been over the top. He hasn’t been that bad.
I don’t understand the hype about Vermeulen. He is a carthorse, and is at best a hard worker who loves making contact, without necessarily making massive amounts of ground.
He won’t let the Boks down, but he won’t be anything special either. Picking him would be more to reward him for his consistent play at provincial level than identifying a potential international star of the future.
He would have less impact than Spies, and in fact, would rob us of Spies’s other attributes, primarily his pace, mobility and cover defensive speed.
3 Nov 2010, 11:35 am
@Tegejo(Tegejo) : “Please explain to me why Spies looks phenomenal in the S14, playing with Steggies and Potties, but looks so ordinary in a Bok jersey playing with Schalk and Flo. against the same opposition.”
You can take “Spies” name in your statement and insert ” Wynand Olivier”, there you are, got your answer?
3 Nov 2010, 11:35 am
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis) : 47 I think you have it right there.
3 Nov 2010, 11:35 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt) : By the way, which all-round world class 8 are you referring to?
3 Nov 2010, 11:35 am
The only deficiency in Spies’s game that concerns me is his technique in the tackle. I agree he uses his arms rather than putting his shoulder into the hit. He will wrap a guy up and leg drive him back, but he will never smash a guy back with his shoulder.
This leads to the attacking player sometimes being able to shift his point of contact off-centre, allowing him to run through the outstretched arm of Spies. This is one area he seriously needs to work on.
As for his ball carrying ability – he is as powerful as Alberts, but with much more pace.
He hasn’t set the world alight this year, but the criticism has been over the top. He hasn’t been that bad.
I don’t understand the hype about Vermeulen. He is a carthorse, and is at best a hard worker who loves making contact, without necessarily making massive amounts of ground.
He won’t let the Boks down, but he won’t be anything special either. Picking him would be more to reward him for his consistent play at provincial level than identifying a potential international star of the future.
He would have less impact than Spies, and in fact, would rob us of Spies’s other attributes, primarily his pace, mobility and cover defensive speed.
3 Nov 2010, 11:36 am
@Tegejo(Tegejo) :
And that is where we differ.
I would rather prefer a player with complete or all round skills suited to his position, being strong in all aspects, than a player that is only strong in one aspect of a position.
3 Nov 2010, 11:37 am
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid) : What does Meisikind have to do with a discussion around picking the correct loose forward combo?
3 Nov 2010, 11:37 am
They will not **** around in Sat…they need to set the tone of the tour.
I will be surprized if Steggies gets the no.6 jersey. He might not even feature in the 22 at all.
BTW, it’s the anticipation of the roaming openside that makes him so effective. You can’t do anything if you can’t get inot position. Flou is good at pilfering, so is Bismarck, but neither can apply constant pressure like Brussow/Steggies, and slowing ht ball down, I think spectators dont appreciate their ability to test the refs…dont let their innocent looking faces fool you. (unless your name in Craig Joubert…then by all means,please.)
3 Nov 2010, 11:40 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt) : Lets agree to disagree. Holding thumbs that PDV has something up his sleeve, and that we give the lepricorn-sh@gging Irish a good lesson in Southern hemisphere rugby!
3 Nov 2010, 11:40 am
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis) : LOL did you see that classic “who me, ref? ” look that FLO gave last Saturday. Could have come right from the Fitzpatrick playbook. Butter wouldn’t have melted in his mouth.
3 Nov 2010, 11:40 am
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid) :
the FNG?
3 Nov 2010, 11:41 am
@WOLFMAN21(WOLFMAN21) : You might have to watch the game again.
WP’s ineffective attack was easily repelled by a solid sharks team defensive effort. Scrums were easily managed by the sharks. WP also had some issues at the lineout, and when they did manage to form their rolling maul, this was also countered.
The 2 incidents you mentioned are memorable, but the effective non-flashy, grafting performance of the Sharks is what should be lauded. A true team performance.
Do you remember any outstanding play by either Kanko or Daniels on saturday? I didn’t, but they were damn effective when involved in the play.
3 Nov 2010, 11:41 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus) : 54
Are you Hebrew?
They don’t have any punctuation to define exclaimation…so they just repeat something for emphasis……
3 Nov 2010, 11:42 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus) : not a bull but impressed by the balance of the stegmann, potties, spies trio. would thus put in smith @7 and alberts together with daniel on bench for an all out forward onslaught.
3 Nov 2010, 11:42 am
6 Stegman-stay disciplined my boy!
7 Smith
8 Spies
18 Alberts – covering Bakkies and Smith
19 Kankowski – covering 8
Simple.
3 Nov 2010, 11:42 am
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis) :
No, I just refuse to have any post of mine languish in position 50 at the bottom of a page that no one will read.
3 Nov 2010, 11:43 am
@Tegejo(Tegejo) : Sergio Parisse, Joe Van Niekerk is the closest guy in terms of 8thmen skills.
3 Nov 2010, 11:43 am
@Proud to be a Lion(Proud to be a Lion) :
Agreed.
3 Nov 2010, 11:44 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus) : Spies’s deficiencies have been well known since the first time he was picked and it has always been said that not to worry…..he will grow into the no8 position to become a real world class no8. Well I think he had enough time to ‘grow’. It aint gonna happen. And to have cover defensive speed but not making the tackles helps as much as my arse itching and i scratch my head. The bokke can’t afford to carry a pasenger at no8 anymore. But we all know snorre will always pick him. Sooooo…….
3 Nov 2010, 11:44 am
@stormersboy(stormersboy) :
shame, I got the feeling he wanted to backchat…and then he remembered that there has been talk of his attitude onfield….But it doesn’t matter if you look as insidious as a nazgul if you are so blatant in infringement
3 Nov 2010, 11:46 am
@Tegejo(Tegejo) : Was answering your question on why Spies is an average player at test level, its the same thing that happens to WO, his skills set is simply not good enough at test level. The only time Spies remotely looked the part at test level was in 2006 when he was on juice.
3 Nov 2010, 11:46 am
@Two Eyed(Two Eyed) :
Thanks for your contribution. We’ll be sure to consider it.
3 Nov 2010, 11:46 am
@John Galt(John Galt) : +1
3 Nov 2010, 11:47 am
@pompies2(pompies2) :
I strongly disagree.
Remember that the key regarding fetching is not to pinch ball, but to slow down the opposing ruck ball. The best fetchers out there hardly pinch 4 balls in a game.
Defensive teams who excel at deck play organise fetchers at specific nodes on the park given the particular phase. It helps if you have two deck players (like a hooker and an opensider) because obviously a single fetcher cannot be at every single ruck.
Of course, this is much easier to do in earlier phases – in fact, if you haven’t managed to slow down opposition ball effectively in the first 3 phases, you are in for a tough time. We can discuss this analytically if you want.
Counterrucking is not only energy inefficient if done repeatedly, but it cannot solely be a method of disrupting the breakdown. You need to mix and match it up.
Think about it this way. If you don’t play fetchers, you are effectively forced to stay up in the tackle a bit more to allow inefficient deck players to arrive at the ruck, which creates opportunities for offloads for supporting runners for your enemy. This is one of the things the ABs did so effectively against us. Of course, their ruck play was not threatened because we did not play a deck player, so they had the best of both worlds.
So yes, you are right that decisionmaking in a tackle situation is key, but you are really complicating matters for yourself if you don’t employ a hybrid approach to cover all possible scenarios.
3 Nov 2010, 11:48 am
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid) : None of which are available this weekend for the Boks, genius!
3 Nov 2010, 11:48 am
stegmann&brussow>>>>louw ito speed to the ball, workrate, effectiveness, tackle count, turnovers and overall complementary value in balancing a loose trio.
3 Nov 2010, 11:48 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus) : All the Spies qualities oyu mentioned has been seen at various times in various games. Have they ever come together in a a single game?
For me, Spies is not a channel 1 or channel 2 defender. He just lacks the technique to be a front-on defender. SO if you not the defender, you have to be the 1st arriving player to either slow down, or steal the ball. I don’t think he does this either.
Vermeulen might not bee the answer, but I’m yet to be convinced that Spies is based on his international performances. Thus far,I onky remember the England game where he ran them to shreds.
3 Nov 2010, 11:49 am
@Tegejo(Tegejo) :
Sweet, here is to hoping against hope we can pull it off on Saturday
3 Nov 2010, 11:49 am
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid) : Eish…. I’m not going to bother……
3 Nov 2010, 11:49 am
@willievz(willievz) : Good analysis.
3 Nov 2010, 11:49 am
@pompies2(pompies2) : England B!!
3 Nov 2010, 11:50 am
@John Galt(John Galt) : would put in daniel ahead of kankowski though, he adds true value from the bench, can cover 6&8, impact player & good link to turn things on in the last quarter
3 Nov 2010, 11:52 am
Divs going to keep as many combinations as possible the same.
Do you really think he’s going to switch players around a few days before we play Ireland on the opening of their new stadium?
Wont happen and correctly so.
The core of this side will without doubt be:
Jannie, Bissie and Beast
Matfield and Botha
Smith, Spies, Hougaard and M Steyn
3 Nov 2010, 11:52 am
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid) : talking about ‘juice’
FS flyhalf fails dope test
Hendrik Cronjé
Bloemfontein – One of South Africa’s most
promising young rugby players has been
banned for three months for the use of a
banned stimulant.
Grey College star flyhalf, Johan Goosen, was
named Craven Week Player of the Year at
the SA Rugby Awards banquet in Midrand
on Monday night.
However, earlier on Monday, Goosen
appeared before a SARU judiciary
committee and was found guilty.
Sport24 believes Goosen, this year’s Free
State Craven Week No 10, took the
stimulant unknowingly. He was tested after
a Cheetahs Under-19 match against the
Griffons.
The stimulant was initially on the list of
banned substances, before being removed,
only to be added back at a later date.
Due to this, Goosen was only banned for
three months – from November 1, 2010 to
January 31, 2011.
Goosen was not in Midrand to receive his
Player of the Year award.
3 Nov 2010, 11:55 am
@pompies2(pompies2) :
frint-on defender? hehehe so I guess he needs to scamper out of the way next time they come his way first. this is silly. Spies has demostrated that he tackles effectively when he “needs” to..as the last line of defence, he is very safe, I just think he scales and paces himself to save up for a run. Pacing is good. dont judge him too harshly. His cover work is absolutely brilliant.
3 Nov 2010, 11:57 am
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis) : Haha….that was so tongue in the cheek
3 Nov 2010, 11:58 am
@willievz(willievz) : I can understand why you’d disagree, but my take on it is in relation to the Boks situation.
From earlier discussions, I think we both agree on the importance momentum plays, whether attacking or defending. What I’m saying is, that an effective tackle should ideally be where the defending player manages to stay on his feet, while the attacker is tackled to the ground. I know it’s difficult, but it is a skill that can be developed. What happens after this is that the defender then immediately becomes the counter-rucker and because the attacking players have hade to change thier supporting lines to join ‘through’ the gate, thier momentum has been disrupted. This is where the next supporting defensive player has an impact on the ruck.
I also agree that this becomes more difficult as phases go on, but defensively smart players in this regard might minimize the effect. I also seem to remember us saying that the number of phases also does not give an indication of the success of the attacking side.
3 Nov 2010, 12:01 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis) : To each his own then. I challenge you to give an example, just in this year where he has really put the shoulder in or managed to steal a ball. I know they are different, but Reid, is an example of an effective defensive 8. It helps that he has played @6 in NZ before.
3 Nov 2010, 12:02 pm
On the question on why the Sharks outsmarted WP at the breakdown.
Here is my take.
WP made very poor decisions on attack regarding channels. They took the ball wide on early phases, which is not wrong per se, but they ran diagonal lines and attacked the stronger shoulders of defenders in the tackles out wide. This effectively means that the Sharks player entering the ruck had an advantage over the WP player entering the ruck.
If you play against a side with no recongised fetcher, you should run a lot straighter than what WP did over the weekend, sucking in defenders at close quarters and making greater use of channel 1.
Go and look at where the turnovers took place. In wide channels, often close to the touchline.
3 Nov 2010, 12:03 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis) : tackles effectively when he “needs” to
surely that’s not right. should every tackle not be made with the intention of being effective?
3 Nov 2010, 12:03 pm
In terms of all-round skills, in Spies the Boks have probably the most one-dimensional and predictable nr 8 of all major test playing countries.
He’s probably only better than Scotland’s 8, whoever he may be
3 Nov 2010, 12:04 pm
@pompies2(pompies2) :
?the tackler immediately becomes the counter-rucker?
Uh, no.
3 Nov 2010, 12:05 pm
@pompies2(pompies2) : “What I’m saying is, that an effective tackle should ideally be where the defending player manages to stay on his feet, while the attacker is tackled to the ground.”
It is not quite as simple Pompies.
It depends on the situation.
Sometimes it is better to stay upright in the tackle, for instance if you have no immediate support or if you are defending in a wide channel with the opposition having quick ruck ball.
If you go to ground every time, and you don’t have support on your shoulder, you will get killed by the very breakdown method you are suggesting – counterrucking.
This will happen almost every time if you play a stronger but slower tight five that will get to wider defensive channels at a later stage than their opponents.
3 Nov 2010, 12:07 pm
@willievz(willievz) : I think De Waal has alot to do with this. I don’t think province were planning to play the ball back on the angle. That would’ve been silly. What they might have been hoping for is to strike with de jongh @ terblanche, but because the sharks used the drift defence well, it meant Strauss was defending that channel. Plans obviously changed when de jongh went off, but this was wholly ineffective.
I was expecting Coetzee to make the change early in the 2nd half and pull De Waal, but this didn’t happen.
3 Nov 2010, 12:08 pm
@pompies2(pompies2) :
Yeah, I didn’t say it was “right”. It juts seems to me as though he gauges the situation at hand on the fly and adjusts his effect accordingly. Yeah, I also used to think that I was a defensive genius, just go straight for the guy with the ball…how difficult can it be?
Yeah, not so.
But re Spies, he hasn’t even missed about half as many tackles as Burger this season in the 3N for example, eventhough he attempted less. Why is that? I though old Burger was a rock? Doesn’t Burger give it his all? Every time? You see blind aggression doesn’t always help.
3 Nov 2010, 12:09 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis) : Why not? If you on the ground, you out of the game.
3 Nov 2010, 12:15 pm
@willievz(willievz) : I did acknowledge that it wasn’t easy, nor would it happen at every tackle situation. Everythin on the field happens as a result of the opposition’s actions.
I primary focus for this is the momentum building plays, and primary phase ball going to the wings doesn’t happend often, and if your scenario does occur, you’d need a pacy openside.
3 Nov 2010, 12:15 pm
@willievz(willievz) : 92
hehehe, you guys make it sound like you have a choice. Getting thumped gives you no choice whatsoever, except to go into bail-out mode and wriggle yourself into position to place the ball far as possible away from the opposition.
Everyone gets trained to stay on their feet long enough to get the offload away or ig they are slightly isolated, the opendside helps here in that he’ll hang off and wait for less support to be committed before committing huimself, or being in proximity to provide emergence support. Technique at the b/d isn’t just ramming into it like a bison, you have a spilt second to identify the quickest way of destabilizing the support, whether you hit his wrists, or gooi him with a half nelson.
3 Nov 2010, 12:16 pm
@pompies2(pompies2) : 95
say what? you’ll only roll away and join the ruck half the time…what do you mean?
3 Nov 2010, 12:25 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis) : I’m asking if your work is done once you’ve made the tackle. Is just making the tackle enough?
3 Nov 2010, 12:29 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis) :
It is all about dominating the last meter before contact, meaning you need to mentally anticipate action and then implement physical reaction.
But fair enough, sometimes you don’t have a choice.
However, you should also remember that players learn how to go to ground with the ball and how to protect and place the ball effectively.
Although, in this country, I sometimes wonder if they learn it.
3 Nov 2010, 12:31 pm
@pompies2(pompies2) :
No, the real work starts after you made the tackle.
3 Nov 2010, 12:32 pm
@pompies2(pompies2) :
OK, we’ve lost eachother. You’re not the counter-rucker when making the tackle, immediately afterwards…that’s what. Anyway, If Steggies isn’t fully recovered JC will feel vindicated that he “isn’t up to international standard”, that’s a slight worry. Afterall we’ve seen players got a little look-in, and then dropped like a hot potato. We could have had Potties there. just think about it, now we have Keegan
Ja wat.
3 Nov 2010, 12:35 pm
@willievz(willievz) : 100
No trust me Willievz, we are the best in the world in that department..next to the All Blacks
3 Nov 2010, 12:36 pm
@Frankly speaking(Frankly speaking) :
come now frank.
don’t be sour, rather help duane with his gardening whilst the big boys tour.
he needs a shoulder to cry on after Alberts put a collar and leash on him in the final.
3 Nov 2010, 12:37 pm
@willievz(willievz) : Have to agree. Contact skills aren’t very good.
3 Nov 2010, 12:38 pm
Lions making a major announcement at 15:00 today, expect it to be more than just confirmation on the Mapoe move to the union.
3 Nov 2010, 12:39 pm
I think a lot of people under-estimate the value of the sharks tight forwards in the loose – especially bismarck and hargreaves who steal the most ball for them.
The new laws have changed the breakdown quite a bit imo. The tackler has less impact; the guys arriving next are responsible for slowing the ball down. On your own ball, speed to the ruck is still the most important in terms of maintaining possession and getting quick ball.
This is where the mobile sharks pack excelled and is the reason for their currie cup success.
3 Nov 2010, 12:40 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt) : oh yes? what else are you anticipating?
3 Nov 2010, 12:40 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis) : OK. I understand what you saying. I was referring to the tackler driving past the ball once the tackle is made. I haven’t written the openside completely after seeing Pocock’s display in the 2nd half this past weekend, but I’m not of the ‘fetcher’ at all costs brigade.
3 Nov 2010, 12:41 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt) :
luke watson to be the new captain next year?
3 Nov 2010, 12:42 pm
@dump_divvy(dump_divvy) :
Couple of rumors going around…
New sponsors being one of them, and then also possibly Lions making Soweto their new home???
3 Nov 2010, 12:42 pm
@pompies2(pompies2) :
You’re not allowed to do that. if I understand what you are saying
3 Nov 2010, 12:44 pm
On the subject of a balanced loose-trio…
Ideally it should be:
6. Should be a supporting and linking player, playing to the ball and ensuring quick recycling of possession, as well as slowing down opposition ball when on defense.
7. Should be a very physical and aggressive (and preferably big) ball-carrier, who can cross the advantage line to ensure go-forward ball and establish momentum. Defensively he should counter the opposition’s ball carrying forwards and lay in some big hits.
8. The nr 8′s positional play is key both when fielding kicks in the backfield, as well as on cover-defense. On attack he will either be a primary ball-carrier, or play a supporting role, depending on his build and size. Linking between the forwards and backs is essential. Most importantly, he should be able to adapt his game to the current situation, both on attack and defense, be it assisting in tackles or retreating to the backfield to field kicks
With Spies at nr 8, our loose trio will never be balanced.
If he has to be included, pick him as a 7 and have him play to his strengths, like Kaino does with success for the AB’s
(Although I can’t ever see him replacing Juan Smith)
3 Nov 2010, 12:45 pm
@semi(semi) : I’m glad you saw it the same way. I might only have 1 braincell, but I was worried that it wasn’t working so lekker. Didn’t notice hargreaves, but that doesn’t mean he didn’t contribute.
3 Nov 2010, 12:49 pm
ok, this is a bit silly now.
In the opinion of many, including myself, SA’s strongest trio combo is:
8 Spies
7 Smith
6 Stegmann
Triple S, Super Springboks. Can’t go wrong.
3 Nov 2010, 12:49 pm
@pompies2(pompies2) : my main thought on the fetcher argument is that a guy who excels at stealing ball can be a major bonus, provided he does all the basic foundational stuff that a loose forward must offer. So, guys like Brussouw, McCaw and Pocock are all helluva strong, make huge numbers of tackles, carry the ball effectively and have a good general skill set. On top of that, they will pilfer 2 or 3 balls a game that you might not otherwise have turned over, and as we know, turnover ball is your best attacking opportunity so that is significant.
So I do see the value of a fetcher, provided that’s not all he is. A guy like Stegman, for me, does not quite have the all-round game that guys like the 3 I’ve mentioned offer. Then on the other hand, a guy like Jean Deysel is not a stereotypical fetcher, nor it Francois Louw, but at their best, they both turn over a fair amount of ball, and offer a lot more all around the park.
3 Nov 2010, 12:50 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis) :
Then why is our ruck ball so slow?
3 Nov 2010, 12:51 pm
@Frankly speaking(Frankly speaking) : Spot on,did you notice how well Alberts did the whole cover defense and fielding the deep kicks on Saturday. I was pleasantly surprised.
3 Nov 2010, 12:52 pm
1. Beast Mtawarira
2. Bismark du Plesis
3. CJ van der Linde
4. bakkies Botha
5. Victor Matfield
6. Keegan Daniel
7. Juan Smith
8. Willem Alberts
9. Francois Hougaard
10. Elton Jantjies
11. Bjorn Basson
12. Jean de Villiers
13. Brayan Habana
14. Gio Aplon
15. Patric Lambie
16. Jannie du Plessis
17. Chilliboy Rallepele
18. Allister Hargreeves
19. Pierre Spies
20. Ruaan Pienaar
21. Morne Steyn
22. Francois Steyn
3 Nov 2010, 12:54 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis) : That’s news to me. You saying you cannot drive past the ball after making the tackle?
Did anyone notice the comment on the reply icon if you hover over it? WTF!!!
3 Nov 2010, 12:56 pm
@willievz(willievz) :
when? Not disproportionally. getting it wrong and having insufficient numbers there can screw you over, I believe the Stormers over anticipated earlier this, the refs still hadn’t settled on it. The Bulls had a furious recycle rate for the most part of the S14.
(And im also tempted to say something RE Rick Januarie….images of Potties running at flank and scrummie come to mind)
3 Nov 2010, 12:57 pm
@Frankly speaking(Frankly speaking) : That’s the basic requirement and should in no way be compromised. Any additional skill a loosie brings is a bonus
3 Nov 2010, 12:57 pm
@pompies2(pompies2) :
vous ne parlez pas francais?
3 Nov 2010, 12:59 pm
@pompies2(pompies2) : 120
Only saw it now….that explains it, this site is run by the French. Je suis en merde avec francais? Anyway…you aren’t allowed to interfere with the placement of the ball.
3 Nov 2010, 13:04 pm
dictionarydotreversodotnet/french-english/****
Change exclamation to ‘i’
3 Nov 2010, 13:06 pm
should be s h i t. Explains all the merde being written on the site. please turn off the pc brigade. we might act like children, but we can hanlde the profanities.
3 Nov 2010, 13:07 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis) :
I saw on several occasions in the 3N that ball carriers such as Danie move that extra yard too far away from support, isolating himself, and then still fail to protect the ball in the tackle or when presenting it at the base of the ruck.
Of course, in the Springbok case, you can also blame support players for not arriving at the ruck quicker. But sometimes you can also blame the ball carrier for moving too far and making a wrong decision.
However, I primarily blame a lack of attacking strategy for ball carriers at close quarters. We rarely seemed to bundle up attacks like the ABs did with supporing runners on a carrier’s shoulder. These players are supposed to (a) provide support if the carrier goes to ground or (b) provide passing options for the carrier if an offload is on.
The only loosie I saw doing this in part was Potgieter.
For the most part, our carriers simply march on without any idea of what they are actually doing.
3 Nov 2010, 13:11 pm
Hello Rugby Lovers
My name is Ned.
Here is my view.
1) We must dominate the tackle/contact point.
2) If we do that, Stegmann will come into play.
3) If that happens – Spies & Smith can make metres.
4) Now we are making metres.
5) Backline gets front-foot ball.
6) We can play our running game.
Kindest Regards
Ned the Lions Supporter.
ps. Have a great day everyone and thank-you Mark Keohane for this Gr8t forum.
3 Nov 2010, 13:15 pm
@willievz(willievz) :
Blame it on the combination of Muir and Divvy. In turn they’ll blame it on the boys for “not being mature enough to play what is in front of them”. The players need to be able to recognize patterns that will allow them to default to a certain setmove or general attacking strategy.
They started playing like the Lions. ie uncoached. The problem is that these kids have had the training since youth..but each player has antoher idea..they need to be combed under the same standard. I can’t answer their problems, but I can tell you, one-on-one South Africans are the most robust and skilled players in the world.
3 Nov 2010, 13:17 pm
@Ned(Ned) : 128
Wow, what a nice guy.
Have a nice day:D
(unless you’re affiliated with Nedbank…in that case rot in hell. Please)
3 Nov 2010, 13:18 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis) :
I have to agree with your last sentence.
3 Nov 2010, 13:22 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis) : I see he used the “S” word…..
3 Nov 2010, 13:23 pm
@willievz(willievz) : 131
Which one?
No, NZders are unmatched in broken play, but at the breakdown our boys can put the ears on anyone.
3 Nov 2010, 13:24 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis) :
Hehe, now there I disagree again
3 Nov 2010, 13:24 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy) :
I only noticed that now….”supporter”…in conjuction with Lions, right?
At first I was like O_O…… then I was like -_-
3 Nov 2010, 13:25 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis) :
why anybody would bank with nedbank is beyond me.
if one of the big 4 were to disappear up its own poepper it would be that one.
why take that chance?
3 Nov 2010, 13:28 pm
@gunther(gunther) : 136
yeah, but they swiped the pooper too…it’s like deviding by 0.
3 Nov 2010, 13:28 pm
@dump_divvy(dump_divvy) : I agree.
But in the same breath, I have to say that all Francois Louw offers at the moment are penalties for the opposition.
He is in a bad place mentally, and I hope he becomes a stronger player when this storm passes.
3 Nov 2010, 13:30 pm
when is the team announcement?
I think it’ll be fairly predictable with the youngsters on the bench if history is anything to go by.
3 Nov 2010, 13:30 pm
What a ridiculous article! 1st I don’t think Spies or Kanko should be starting, but to pick Stegman over Daniel is a bit ridiculous on current form.
The Sharks IMO have the most balanced loose trio in SA. (I’ve been banging on about this for ages). Now look at the formulation:
Daniel (Opensider – great from a ball retention perspective)
Alberts/Deysel (Huge defense and great ball carrier)
Kanko (Show pony with the pace)
Now if you sub in Smith for Alberts and Spies for Kanko the balance looks pretty similar, so why would Daniel be out of place in this line-up??
Anyway I think our best trio would be:
Daniel
Alberts
Smith
With Kanko/Spies coming of the wood.
3 Nov 2010, 13:31 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis) : 137 *dividing
3 Nov 2010, 13:31 pm
@gunther(gunther) : bad experience?
3 Nov 2010, 13:32 pm
@willievz(willievz) : Flo is a one-season phenomenon! He played well, went straight into the boks (typical WP), whilst guys like Stegman have been performing for years.
Flo’s technique is terrible, he lies on the tackled player.
3 Nov 2010, 13:33 pm
@Ratel Brussow(Morne Steyn is under-rated) :
Div will pick Kankowski, Smith and Spies.
3 Nov 2010, 13:33 pm
@gunther(gunther) : @Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis) : ps. All banks will screw you over for a penny, so it doesn’t really matter where you bank.
3 Nov 2010, 13:36 pm
@Ratel Brussow(Morne Steyn is under-rated) : The WP thing didn’t work for Vermeulen….Although the Sharks thing looked like it did for Alberts.
3 Nov 2010, 13:37 pm
@logie_Jumpbuck(logie_Jumpbuck) : 145
Yeah…but I like service with a smile
3 Nov 2010, 13:38 pm
@Ratel Brussow(Morne Steyn is under-rated) 140: The biggest thing is the northern hemisphere factor – heavy, possibly wet fields. They don;t suit a lot of our players, although I’d still go with that trio you suggested: Daniel and Smith on the flanks with Alberts at 8.
3 Nov 2010, 13:39 pm
The problem with the whole Spies thing is him being picked purely on his potential. Which he obviously has.
The amount of people slagging him off as useless have very short memories. I personally don’t like the guy, one because he’s a Bull and being a teenager have only ever watched my beloved WP taking up the behind from the boys from Tshwane. He also seems emotionally pathetic when I read his interviews, typical lame stuff.
That said I’d like to think I ignore provincialism when it comes to the Boks and an in form Spies is the best 8 in the World barring maybe Parrisse who is just in a league of his own.
The point I want to make is that Spies should be dropped. Told that he will be monitered closely and that good form will see him back in the side. Until he is forced to get his form back I don’t see how it’ll happen. It also has a detremental effect on other 8s in the country who will think there’s nothing they can do to oust him. Competition is very healthy and with the largest and IMO most talented pool of Rugby players in the World we can utilise competition to get the best results.
Much like Evolution does in speciation (That one is for you Taccy my Intellectual/Conservative/Isreal/Tea Party supporting friend).
3 Nov 2010, 13:39 pm
@Mutant(Mutant) : Ya Vermuelen, was unlucky. Alberts been playing well for years too. I reckon it was a straight choice vs the 2 of them.
How many S14 caps does Flo have?????
3 Nov 2010, 13:39 pm
@gunther(gunther) : Gunther thats now a real ignorant statement – Vermeulen was in the losing team in both finals, so he was never going to look his best in a pack going backwards! Who “owned” him in the CC final? Definitely NOT Kanko. Watch the game again – Vermeulen is often the guy stopping Alberts.
Watch Vermeulen over the CC – catching wingers (sometimes in his socks!), often making the last cover tackle to save a try, being in the right place at the right tiome.
He takes the ball up HARD and bashes through defenders or takes 3 with him. Not like Spies and Kanko who fall over before the tackle.
Like Two Eyed said @Two Eyed(Two Eyed) Spies arrives late or is not in position, he is not reading the game well (like he used to) and he is definitely scared of contact – unlike Vermeulen.
I think the Bok squad is a GREAT one – except for the inclusion of Spies and Kanko. It shouldve been Vemeulen and Alberts at 8.
3 Nov 2010, 13:41 pm
@Mutant(Mutant) : I would pick Alberts at 7 and Smith at 8.
1. Alberts doesn’t need the extra pressure of 8 starting his 1st test.
2. Alberts and Daniel are already a gelled combination.
3 Nov 2010, 13:42 pm
You know, i don’t understand this whole wet and heavy underfoot theory. The heavier you are as a player, the more difficult it will be to keep up with the game. If you speed it up surely the opposite heavier side should struggle?
3 Nov 2010, 13:43 pm
I think most of us believe whole problem with Spies is him being picked purely on his potential. Which he obviously has.
The amount of people slagging him off as useless have very short memories. I personally don’t like the guy, one because he’s a Bull and being a teenager have only ever watched my beloved WP taking up the behind from the boys from Tshwane. He also seems emotionally pathetic when I read his interviews, typical lame stuff.
That said I’d like to think I ignore provincialism when it comes to the Boks and an in form Spies is the best 8 in the World barring maybe Parrisse who is just in a league of his own.
The point I want to make is that Spies should be dropped. Told that he will be monitered closely and that good form will see him back in the side. Until he is forced to get his form back I don’t see how it’ll happen. It also has a detremental effect on other 8s in the country who will think there’s nothing they can do to oust him. Competition is very healthy and with the largest and IMO most talented pool of Rugby players in the World we can utilise competition to get the best results.
Much like Evolution does in speciation (That one is for you Taccy my Intellectual/Conservative/Isreal/Tea Party supporting friend).
3 Nov 2010, 13:44 pm
If Stegman does get the nod it will be a great occasion for Greys – two of the XV flanks from the same side being awarded the green and gold ( Brussow the other one)- must of been a fantastic high school side.
3 Nov 2010, 13:44 pm
@THEBokFan(bokfan1) : I agree, although I would take Kanko along as a game-breaker off the wood.
Personally my loosies would have been:
Smith/Alberts
Daniel/Stegman
Vermuelen/Kanko
Leave Spies at home – He’s a show pony like Kanko, only Kanko is on form.
My starting line-up would have remained the same though:
Daniel
Alberts
Smith
3 Nov 2010, 13:46 pm
Anyone read Ryan’s “lighthearted take on the Springbok squad selection and their chances against Ireland?”
Anyone else not find it light-hearted? WTF?
3 Nov 2010, 13:47 pm
Have a bad feeling about this game, hope we can pull it off, we definitely the underdogs for this one. Interested to see how our lineout goes, last time out we struggled at landsdowne road with Gert Smal’s influence
3 Nov 2010, 13:47 pm
@logie_Jumpbuck(logie_Jumpbuck) : Go Play a social club game in England, in the pissing rain. How easy do you think it is to pass the ball down the line to the wing? Therefore contact is taken closer to tackle point. Therefore forwards don’t need to move much, therefore suites bigger, slower players.
Of course this doesn’t mean there isn’t place for another type of player.
3 Nov 2010, 13:48 pm
The KIWIS have been playing fast rugby on their EOYT for the last couple of years and they never come up short. Why can’t the boks do the same?
3 Nov 2010, 13:49 pm
@logie_Jumpbuck(logie_Jumpbuck) 153: Everything is slowed down on heavy fields, so the quicker players primary strength is negated. Less speed and agility makes it easier for the big men to catch them.
3 Nov 2010, 13:50 pm
@Ratel Brussow(Morne Steyn is under-rated) : I play touchies every week with a group of friends. We play rain or shine. When we do play in the rain the only thing that becomes more difficult to maintain is handling…..but we shorten the passes.
Just a thought.
3 Nov 2010, 13:50 pm
@Mutant(Mutant) : No I haven’t.
What is with this poll, are most bloggers on this site complete idiots? Pienaar and Jantjies have more votes than Lambie????
That is just ridiculous. I hate these ignorant
c
u
n
t
s
3 Nov 2010, 13:52 pm
@logie_Jumpbuck(logie_Jumpbuck) : Exactly, shorter passes = less space = closer distance between tackle points (or in your case touches).
3 Nov 2010, 13:53 pm
Id go with this line up for Saturday.
1 beast
2 bismark
3 Jannie
4 bakkies
5 Victor
6 stegmann
7 smith
8 spies
9 hougaard
10 m.steyn
11 habana
12 lambie
13 de villiers
14 basson
15 aplon
16 chillie
17 cj v linde
18 flip v merwe
19 alberts
20 pienaar
21 jantjies
22 jacobs
Then next week F.Steyn slots in at 12 or 15. If at 12 the lambie moves to 15 with aplon in the wing and basson to the bench and adi drops out. If Steyn goes to 15 them aplon to the wing and basson benched.
3 Nov 2010, 13:56 pm
@Ratel Brussow(Morne Steyn is under-rated) : U angry that nobody votes for your lover?
3 Nov 2010, 13:56 pm
@Bagel(Bagel) : I have to disagree
Before he can be mentioned amongst the best 8′s in the world, he has to overcome some deficiencies:
1. Positional play, especially covering work on defense
2. Catching and passing
3. Lack of effectiveness on defense
4. He needs to harden the fuckup
Parisse, Harinordquy, Fernandez Lobbe, Reid, Palu are light-years ahead of him
3 Nov 2010, 13:57 pm
@Ratel Brussow(Morne Steyn is under-rated) 163 : Ja saw that poll…what? Who are these muppets on this site?
I think I’d still go for Morne in this game. He was on the conditioning program so should be relatively fresh, has a psychological edge over some of the Lions Irishmen, should fare better in a close Test match. Save Lambie’s first start for Wales and Scotland.
3 Nov 2010, 13:57 pm
Time will tell how good Lambie and Elton really is.
3 Nov 2010, 13:58 pm
@Mustard(Mustard) : I like the look of that team, but would play Lambie at 15, and fly in Doppies for one game. Replace Jacobs on the bench with Aplon.
3 Nov 2010, 14:01 pm
Does anyone know what happened to Supersport’s blog?
3 Nov 2010, 14:01 pm
@logie_Jumpbuck(logie_Jumpbuck) : We shouldn’t expect much given its their first tour but they young and they will learn from this experience….thing is to invest on your young players and put as little as possible pressure on them and let them play their games…look at O’Connor from Aus…hes coming into his own now but they persisted with him..same with Quade
3 Nov 2010, 14:03 pm
So what are these rumors of the starting trio being:
Kankowski Smith Spies ???
3 Nov 2010, 14:03 pm
Folks, just wanted to put some thoughts around where I think the game is going and get your opinions.
With the new tackle law interpretations both the Ozzies and AB’s it seems are planning to have the ball in circulation a lot longer on the field and are hence looking at big, fast skillful players who can offload in the tackle, can break down opposition defences with support runners and angled running. They will only kick to get defences out of alignment i.e. forcing players to drop back in anticipation of kicks and thereby create space to attack.
Whereas it seems the Boks and the NH teams are looking to use their big skillful players to dominate through forcing the defenders to commit more than one or two players to the tackle and ruck and thereby try and create space after the 3rd or 4th tackle. This means we are looking at more skillful runners and not necessarily big tacklers in the back line. If the AB’s and Ozzies can therefore hold onto the own ball it means our forwards are going to be tackling their a..ses off all day, leaving their big centres and wings eventually to run at our smaller backline players.
The one way we can get around this is to hold up their players in the tackle and create a maul situation, thereby slowing down the recycle or having strong tacklers who can also get back onto their feet immediately and contest , fetcher style. The other thing we will need to do is think about how we can force more set-pieces in order to dominate either through the kick and chase or the deep kick out negates a quick lineout and then disrupting their ball.
All in all its quite clear we don’t have the personnel at this point in time to play it the way the Ozzies and AB’s do.
Or maybe I’m just missing a trick or two.
3 Nov 2010, 14:03 pm
@Ratel Brussow(Morne Steyn is under-rated) : Jantjies is a better flyhalf than Lambie. Lambie is more versatile but when you looking at 10′s Jantjies performances for the Lions this season were sensational.
I’m sorry but as good as Lambie is he is nowhere near as creative a Jantjies and his goal kicking pales in comparison. I’ve seem Lambie get palmed on many occasion too. What I like about Lambie is his temprement even though it doesn’t help his goal kicking. Very cool customer with a great pass and a nice instep. Maybe a 12?
If you watched the Lions at all this year you would’ve seen why Jantjies has so many votes. The kid is a class act, I’ve never seen a SA flyhalf put his backline into space like that, not to mention his superb goal-kicking.
I’d like to mention that I do rate Lambie, just not as highly. Both can go on their own and not get slammed back which is nice.
3 Nov 2010, 14:03 pm
@Tegejo(Tegejo) : I’m angry that the average blogger on this sight is a complete moron and I, by association have to endure the same branding.
3 Nov 2010, 14:04 pm
@Tegejo(Tegejo) : WTF? Your mother isn’t on the poll list.
3 Nov 2010, 14:06 pm
@Tegejo(Tegejo) : i think we covered at center for the WC with JDV, JDJ, Fourie and Jacobs…Aslo FSteyn also covers 12 and Lambie the future 10/12 hes been given the opportunity to tour…so where does this leave Doppies?? think there’s no long term plans for him therefore its pointless making him a bok for one game…but i do like him, hes a good player with good work rate.
3 Nov 2010, 14:09 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis) : hope they just rumors and nothing more
3 Nov 2010, 14:09 pm
@Bagel(Bagel) : Case in point? How many S14 games has Jantfies started? How many pressure situations has he been in? Now people want to dump him starting against Ireland. Moronic. Jantjies may prove to be the better 10 (I doubt it, but he is talented), but right now Lambie is at least 12 months ahead of Jantjies in his development.
To pick Ruan at 10, who has been playing 9 in Ireland is equally moronic.
3 Nov 2010, 14:11 pm
@THEBokFan(bokfan1) :
alberts is in the boks squad.
secondly surely such a legendary number 8 can look good in a beaten pack.
think of parisse of Italy.
how many times did vermullet stop Alberts on saturday?
he often crashes through defenders or it takes 3 to tackle him.
tackles wingers in his socks.
sounds like you have bought into the hype nicely.
looking pretty ignorant from where I stand pel.
3 Nov 2010, 14:12 pm
when is team announcement?
3 Nov 2010, 14:12 pm
More than half the people who took part in that poll (over 1000) are complete
f
u
c
k
i
n
g
retards.
3 Nov 2010, 14:14 pm
Picking Jantjies and Ruan over Morne or Lambie is about equal as voting for a loose trio of
Potgieter
Kanko
Spies
3 Nov 2010, 14:16 pm
@Ratel Brussow(Morne Steyn is under-rated) : And if you can’t see whats wrong with the loose trio, well then, I rest my case.
3 Nov 2010, 14:19 pm
Ratel, what’s your best side for Sat?
3 Nov 2010, 14:20 pm
If you reading this, there’s a 50% chance you are a complete ******. 50% chance you have the rugby brain of a 2 year-old girl. 50% chance I don’t give a
F
U
C
K
about your opinion, because it is
C
R
A
P
Of course if you the other 50%, I apologise.
3 Nov 2010, 14:23 pm
@Mutant(Mutant) : Tough one, I am still undecided on 10, but I would maybe take a risk:
Beast
Bissie
Jannie
Bakkies
Victor (c)
Daniel
Alberts
Smith
Hougaard
Lambie
Basson
JdV
Jacobs (who else?)
Aplon
Frans
CJ
Strauss
Danie
Kanko
Ruan
Morne
Habanna
3 Nov 2010, 14:23 pm
@Mutant(Mutant) : You?
3 Nov 2010, 14:23 pm
@logie_Jumpbuck(logie_Jumpbuck) : 153
The conventional wisdom goes something like this: On heavier and wetter fields, you move more difficult per se. Therefore it is advisable to keep the ball closer to the original contact point and to rely more on offensive strategies such mauling from set pieces or staying upright in the tackle more often.
But I agree that environmental factors are overplayed in rugby.
Good decisionmaking on attack and defense should not be dictated by some predetermined conception about the conditions.
3 Nov 2010, 14:29 pm
@Ratel Brussow(Morne Steyn is under-rated) 188 : Frans can’t play this match though.
3 Nov 2010, 14:29 pm
@Ratel Brussow(Morne Steyn is under-rated) : I do like you team Ratel, but Frans Steyn wont be available until the following Saturday. So think Aplon will start at FB this week. Also would just leave Juan at 7 and play Alberts at 8 think that loose trio would would very well.
So if Aplon has to start at FB who plays at 14? Mvovo and Habs play normally at 11.
3 Nov 2010, 14:29 pm
@Mutant(Mutant) : Snap
3 Nov 2010, 14:31 pm
@Zinto(Zinto) : i like the balance of your forward pack. with monster ball carriers like Bismark, Beast, CJ, Alberts, Smith and Bakkies, a guy like Daniel should have space to shine. My backline for this tour would be:
9. Hougaard
10. Lambie
11. Habana
12. Steyn
13. De Villiers
14. Basson
15. Aplon.
With Steyn not available for Ireland, I reckon they should have called up Bosman and played him and JDV at 12-13. However, brace yourself for JDV and Jacobs.
3 Nov 2010, 14:33 pm
Mine:
Beast
Bissie
Jannie
Bakkies
Victor (c)
Daniel
Alberts
Smith
Hougaard
Steyn
Habana
JdV
Jacobs (who else?)
Basson
Aplon
Bench:
CJ
Strauss
Flip (Danie not on tour)
Kanko
Ruan
Lambie
Kirchner
3 Nov 2010, 14:34 pm
@dump_divvy(dump_divvy) : I like that backline. With the Forward pack you mention agree Daniel at 6 would be brilliant.
We select right think we could win this one on Saturday.
Selection will be key.
I somehow doubt PdV will select Lambie at FH think we will see Morne start. That is unfortunate.
3 Nov 2010, 14:36 pm
@Mutant(Mutant) : Think with Frans Steyn not available for this Saturday think we will see Zane at FB. Aplon on at 14.
3 Nov 2010, 14:39 pm
@Puma(Puma) 197 : Ja probably, but then I question the original squad selection. Kirchner was a late callup after Ricky was injured, so surely PDivvy should back his original squad (therefore Aplon)?
3 Nov 2010, 14:40 pm
@bananaboy(bananaboy) : Very good.
I can add that the ABs have mastered the art of attacking the weaker shoulder of drift defenders in wider channels, particularly the inside shoulder of the 13. They do this by straightening the line from 13, instead of from 12.
They also take the ball wider than the 12 a lot more on first phase – if not, then Nonu stays upright and offloads to a supporting runner who will take the ball wider.
These carriers, however, always have support on both shoulders going into the collision.
I believe this is what you mean with “circulation” rugby. It is spot-on.
The trick is to effectively ensure a ruck position where the enemy is forced to enter from the side. They want to force a breakdown point at the extremes of the field, close to the touchline, because they know that their supporting angles on the shoulder of the offensive carrier will allow them to enter through the gate of the ruck, and not the side.
This is also why it appears that their players hit a lot more rucks than our players on sites like ruggastats. They are simply offering greater support to the carrier as a bundled supporting group on attack.
The next breakdown is aimed to be at the other extreme of the field, close to the other touchline, employing the same offensive method.
This is particularly effective against slower, arguably physically stronger packs. It is energy sapping galore.
However, if you play a nr8 who focuses on cornerflagging or running behind the backline on defense, this strategy will be curtailed, as you immediately then provide the defender with more readily available support.
And yes, I support the idea of our defense keeping the ball carrier on his feet for a second longer. I also recommend defending on the ball a-la rugby league.
3 Nov 2010, 14:41 pm
@Mutant(Mutant) : He should but I doubt it. Who will play 14 then? Basson,Mvovo and Habs all play 11.
3 Nov 2010, 14:46 pm
@Mutant(Mutant) : Okay so basically, ours are the same, except I’d maybe swap the 10s and maybe have Mvovo on the bench instead of Kirchner. After all Lambie can cover 15 and I believe Mvovo might have more impact.
3 Nov 2010, 14:47 pm
@Ratel Brussow(Morne Steyn is under-rated) : You just showed your immaturity by that post/tantrum. People can vote for whoever they want. Thats what makes this a democratic country, mate. Mouthing off like that does not impress anyone. You just loose respectability. People are laughing at you.
3 Nov 2010, 14:48 pm
I really can’t stand looking at the log anymore! Ruan is catching Morne!!!!
3 Nov 2010, 14:49 pm
this poll is astounding… Piennar and Jantjies over Lambie? there are literally over 1,000 idiots who read this blog.
3 Nov 2010, 14:53 pm
Is it possible for the same idiots to vote more than once?
3 Nov 2010, 14:54 pm
@Tegejo(Tegejo) : What ever moron, let me guess you voted Jantjies.
Lets not get into the flaws of democracy, when a murdering rapist vote gets the same count as Desmond Tutu’s, I’d say its probably not a perfect system.
3 Nov 2010, 14:56 pm
@fantasticbarnsmell(fantasticbarnsmell) : I know!! Terrible.
@RugbyRulz(RugbyRulz) : Not that I know of.
3 Nov 2010, 14:56 pm
@fantasticbarnsmell(fantasticbarnsmell) : @RugbyRulz(RugbyRulz) :
3 Nov 2010, 14:57 pm
@RugbyRulz(RugbyRulz) : Yes…. Ratel probably voted 300 times for Lambie…the guy whuff the pretty smaail!
3 Nov 2010, 14:59 pm
@Ratel Brussow(Morne Steyn is under-rated) : Not that its any of your business, but I voted Steyn. I dont agee with the poll results either, but calling everyone names will not change it, now would it?
3 Nov 2010, 15:00 pm
Where is the poll? I don’t see it. Also, what is the poll?
3 Nov 2010, 15:01 pm
@RugbyRulz(RugbyRulz) :
Yes you can, from different computers.
3 Nov 2010, 15:02 pm
Ratel, I think its time for you to change you nick to
“Pat Lambie is under-rated”
3 Nov 2010, 15:04 pm
Cause, Morne Stain is way overrated by now!
3 Nov 2010, 15:05 pm
Ok, so, I’m on the front page, where do I find this controversial poll?
3 Nov 2010, 15:05 pm
@RugbyRulz(RugbyRulz) :
entirely.
mighty has voted until his air time has run out.
on each of his stolen cellphones.
now he is voting on his bosses computer whilst bossman puts out the fire that mighty started in the chip frier.
3 Nov 2010, 15:06 pm
@gunther(gunther) :
chip frier…clearing table 4!
3 Nov 2010, 15:11 pm
@gunther(gunther) :
Didnt had much airtime, so dont bother to vote!
So go ahead and vote for you and maevis; so that PDV can pick Lambie
3 Nov 2010, 15:14 pm
@Mighty Horua(Mighty Horua) :
maevis doesn’t care for rugby.
she says its not a manly sport unlike wrestling.
anyway the only time she listens to voting instructions from me is during the elections.
i threaten to donate her salary to the ANC unless she votes for the freedom front.
3 Nov 2010, 15:15 pm
FFS we all know Morne will be 10 and Pienaar 12. Who da feck will be 13 if JdV can’t pull off a Lazarus… maybe slot Lambie in here.
I don’t know what all the fuss is… chuck either Spies or Kanko in an extra sized 13 and no one will be the wiser. They both float there anyway.
3 Nov 2010, 15:15 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy) : Its on the same page you’re reading this. Top right=hand side. Poll on who the starting FH should be.
3 Nov 2010, 15:20 pm
@RugbyRulz(RugbyRulz) :
actually sheila it looks like lambchop is starting at 12.
he has been training there anyway.
unless pdv is bluffing to confuse the irish spy satellites that are orbiting jo’burg.
3 Nov 2010, 15:21 pm
@Tegejo(Tegejo) : Cool thanks. I vote Elton
3 Nov 2010, 15:23 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy) :
your youth league t-shirt is in the post.
3 Nov 2010, 15:25 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy) : DONT!!!! Ratel will bring your mother into this conversation before you can say “Morne Steyn is over-rated”
3 Nov 2010, 15:27 pm
@gunther(gunther) : Viva Transformation. And Nationalisation.
@Tegejo(Tegejo) : No, it’s worth voting for him just to see the response from him.
Actually I voted for Morne. It doesn’t make sense, given the uncertainty in the midfield, to pick anyone else. Lambie can have one or two goes during the match if the opportunity arrises…….
3 Nov 2010, 15:33 pm
@gunther(gunther) : I saw highlights of the CC final and the lad looked okay at 10. It’s worth a shot easing him in and at 12 he will have a little more space. Never know he may make Morne look good.
How is he defensively? Either Spies or Kanko can assist his channel.
3 Nov 2010, 15:34 pm
WAIT, HOLD ON A MINUTE! ARE THE BOKS STILL IN jhb? I thought they left right after the function on Tuesday. It would have been a great way for SARU to curb their consumption for the evening?
3 Nov 2010, 15:34 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy) : On a serious note, I do rate Elton! Said it when he just started this season. He will be training under Percy for the next couple of months, and that would give him an even bigger kicking boot. He’s my man to take over from MS, with Lambie able to slot in at 15 immediately. I dont rate Frans Steyn, but thats just me.
3 Nov 2010, 15:36 pm
@RugbyRulz(RugbyRulz) :
he played 12 in the cc too.
3 Nov 2010, 15:37 pm
Elton trailing Morne by just 5 votes. C’mon Jantjies!
3 Nov 2010, 15:38 pm
@Tegejo(Tegejo) : I happen to agree with you completely. I also posted on this forum some months ago that
(a) Lwazi Mvovo will be a ‘Bok wing before Gerhard VD Heever, and
(b) Elton Jantjies will be a Bok 10 before Pat Lambie.
3 Nov 2010, 15:39 pm
@gunther(gunther) : Well then, between PdV, you and me… we got it sorted.
So where we putting Pienaar? On the pine!
3 Nov 2010, 15:41 pm
There goes our chance to test Lamb at 10, no bloody centres left. Why Doppies not taken or at least Stefan ?? It seems they must replace a Brown with a Brown ??.. MS could slot in at 15 for this match but they will play him at 10. Also watch out for the HORRIBLE prospect of Kanko at 6 with only Daniels on the bench.
I hope I am wrong but so far these last few years it has been the old “hope it works out” plan. F8cking useless **** and Gaz.
Maybe a spanking on the EOYT is for the long term good of the rugby public ????
3 Nov 2010, 15:41 pm
@Tegejo(Tegejo) :
it looks like the tri-partite alliance has been mobilised.
3 Nov 2010, 15:43 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy) : yip, just like pdivvy was the bok coach before heyneke meyer hey?
Brilliant. You have such vision it brings a tear to my one eye.
3 Nov 2010, 15:43 pm
@RugbyRulz(RugbyRulz) :
it looks like
hougaard
steyn
lambie
basson
habana
aplon
maybe ruan piano on the bench with zane.
3 Nov 2010, 15:44 pm
@Tegejo(Tegejo) :
Please dont “C’mon Jantjies”
ABSA will lose more clients!
3 Nov 2010, 15:45 pm
@gunther(gunther) : I like it, it looks fresh and zippy.
3 Nov 2010, 15:45 pm
@RugbyRulz(RugbyRulz) : Re read you r last sentence again slowly !! When has either Spies or Kanko been rated in defence ? In fact WTF are either of them doing in NH ..
Oh well another day in paradise.
3 Nov 2010, 15:46 pm
@logie_Jumpbuck(logie_Jumpbuck) : Yeah I’m a genius. What can I say. No-one will see that coming…
3 Nov 2010, 15:46 pm
@gunther(gunther) : what do you mean basson? you left out a center piece.
3 Nov 2010, 15:47 pm
Wasn’t “Sir” Elton nr10 when the Lions lost to the Pumas @ Ellis Park?? … Mr Rugby Lambie is 10X better …
3 Nov 2010, 15:47 pm
@gunther(gunther) : You’re missing a player there. Your sequence is all wrong…
3 Nov 2010, 15:48 pm
Johannesburg – The Springboks have had more than enough time to plan their strategy and will be ready for whatever Ireland throw at them this weekend, said coach Peter de Villiers.
“We know them (Ireland) from a to z,” he said.
“If they are going to change a few things, which we do expect, we will be ready for that too.”
Sounds like Pdivvy feels quite bullish about this game coming up, much like JW did in 2004 when he announced that only two Irishman would make his bok squad. Mmmmm….
3 Nov 2010, 15:48 pm
@bananas(bananas) : I was taking the pi$$. But honestly watch spies and kanko… they both float in the centres. Most decent 8′s link with their back… they don’t play there.
3 Nov 2010, 15:50 pm
@logie_Jumpbuck(logie_Jumpbuck) :
hougie
steyn
basson
lambchop
jacobs
habana
aplon
sorry I left out adi.
its the inner racist in me.
3 Nov 2010, 15:53 pm
Adi?? lol … you had a better team with the missing player
3 Nov 2010, 15:53 pm
@gunther(gunther) : 4 players of colour in the backline? none in the forwards. i can see where this is going.
3 Nov 2010, 15:54 pm
@gunther(gunther) : I think you mean:
Hougat
Steyn
Habs
Chop (I like it better that way)
Jacobs
Basson
Aplon
Habs at 11 and Bjorn at 14?
3 Nov 2010, 15:55 pm
lambie
comes in
stone
last
who
would have
guessed
3 Nov 2010, 15:56 pm
@gunther(gunther) : Will Basson move to 14?
3 Nov 2010, 15:57 pm
The only real question is will Lambie start at 10 or 15?
3 Nov 2010, 15:57 pm
@gunther(gunther) : lol
3 Nov 2010, 16:00 pm
@Ratel Brussow(Morne Steyn is under-rated) : Gunther tells me the spy satellite o’head has Lambie at 12. Unless you have better info… lets say CIA info
3 Nov 2010, 16:00 pm
Oh my now Ruan is leading the charge!! WTF. Surely the poll should end in this order:
Morne
Lambie
Ruan
Jantjies
??????
No wonder our administrators are so clueless, look at SAs fans, probably the least knowledgeable fans in the world.
3 Nov 2010, 16:01 pm
November 3 – The Golden Lions Rugby Union has announced the signing of Springbok Sevens star Lionel “Speed” Mapoe. The exciting 22-year-old wing will play in the Red and White next season following a transfer agreement that was concluded this week with the Free State Cheetahs (Pty) Ltd
Since when is his nickname “Speed”
He’s not even that quick.
The rest of the wings in SA will p!ss on him!
3 Nov 2010, 16:02 pm
@RugbyRulz(RugbyRulz) : That sounds about right, play him in his 1st test in the position he has least experience. What a bunch of clowns. Mind you might pay-off, the kid is special, but you couldn’t blame him if he bombed, could you?
3 Nov 2010, 16:03 pm
November 3 – The Golden Lions Rugby Union has announced the signing of Springbok Sevens star Lionel “Speed” Mapoe. The exciting 22-year-old wing will play in the Red and White next season following a transfer agreement that was concluded this week with the Free State Cheetahs (Pty) Ltd.
“It is a major coup for us getting a thrilling young player of Lionel’s calibre into our squad. When we decided to invest in the resurgence of the Lions, we made a commitment to enhance our young team with Springbok quality players,” new Golden Lions Rugby Union shareholder Robert Gumede said.
Mapoe hasn’t been playing rugby since May because of a contractual dispute between the Free State Cheetahs and the KwaZulu-Natal-based Sharks. The arbitrator ruled – which ruling was by agreement not appealable – that the Free State Cheetahs (Pty) Ltd has a valid and binding contract with Mapoe, and the Honourable Madam Justice Cornè van Zyl issued an Order in the Free State High Court at Bloemfontein that Mapoe must report for service at the business place of the Free State Cheetahs (Pty) Ltd at Vodacom Park, Bloemfontein.
“We are relieved that Lionel will finally be back on the rugby field,” said Free State Rugby Union president Harold Verster. “When we were approached by the Lions we saw this as an opportunity to bring closure to this matter. We have concluded a proper transfer agreement between the Cheetahs and the Golden Lions with payment of a transfer fee to the Cheetahs. We wish Lionel well and we are sure this solution will be to the benefit of all parties involved. We were happy with the professional manner in which the Golden Lion’s (new shareholders) Robert (Gumede) and Ivor (Ichikowitz) handled the negotiations.”
Golden Lions Rugby Union President Kevin De Klerk said Mapoe will join the Lions with immediate effect. “Lionel will form an integral part of our squad that is being built under our coach John Mitchell,” he said. “We want to pick up next season on the high we ended this season with, with the Golden Lions surprising fans and foes alike with our constructive and winning rugby. I can’t wait to see Lionel in the Lions’ Den. I know he will fit in perfectly in the Lions’ style of attacking rugby. We are committed to help Lionel fulfil his amazing potential.”
Manie Reyneke, CEO of the Golden Lions Rugby Union, also welcomed the signing. “We have, through the difficult times in 2009 and this year, assured our fans that we are working hard to turn things around and promised them that we would succeed. I think we are now fulfilling that promise – and more pleasant news could soon be announced,” Reyneke said
3 Nov 2010, 16:03 pm
Ryan
I enjoyed your article but i have a feeling that we should go for provincial combination ! Lets not write Keegan Daniel off because hes small , so was Neil Back , Jean Pierre Reeves and many more outstanding loose forwards that excelled in Northern Hemisphere conditions ! I would like to see a Sharks front row Beast , Bizzie and Jannie .A Bulls second row in Bakkies and Victor .U cant leave out Juan as he picks himself , but i would play Keegan Daniel on the flank and put Willem Alberts at 8 .
We need to speed the game up and with Daniel we will be able too .
Throw the young guns in we have nothing too loose .
Start with Hougard and Steyn with Ruan and Janjies getting at least the last 30 minuntes .
De Villiers and Lambie with Adi as back up .
Aplon and Mvovo or Habana ( pretty much of a muchness ) and my man Steyn at the back !
3 Nov 2010, 16:05 pm
Ratel … Mighty Horua emailed me and told me that he & his friends each voted for Jantjies about 100+ times … apparently if you delete your browser history you can vote more than once
3 Nov 2010, 16:08 pm
@Tomatoboy_ralepelle(quota_conrad_jantjies_is_jorrie_muller) : Well that explains it.
3 Nov 2010, 16:11 pm
@Ratel Brussow(Morne Steyn is under-rated) : Not many options… JdV (dodgy groin) Adi (is he fit enough) and Lambie a bit of CC at 12 (Gunther tells me) and 10 during the CC Final; oh and 15 during the S14. Heck if the kid can play S14 he probably can handle the heat.
Can also play Pienaar (as long as he doesnt sulk) at 12… after all he is a utility player.
Boks have the opportunity to mix it up, their forwards are pretty stable, only missing Fdp and Hougaard is no slouch. The newer guys may give the Bok the unpredictable factor.
I’d prefer Aplon at 15, he may be slight but the guy has more skill in his big toe than Zane.
3 Nov 2010, 16:14 pm
Speed the game up? And play into Ireland’s hands? We need a gritty, powerful loose trio and that compete on the deck. Nothing flash. Let the backs do their stuff, once we provide quick, clean ball. Failure to protect our own ball, as we did in the TNs will result in utter destruction.
3 Nov 2010, 16:14 pm
Have a nice evening all
3 Nov 2010, 16:16 pm
argh the wait is getting to me, i want to see the team sheet now…
3 Nov 2010, 16:27 pm
@Alucard(Alucard) :
You still need quick ruck ball on slow surfaces.
Speeding up the game does not directly translate into taking the ball wide.
3 Nov 2010, 16:30 pm
@willievz(willievz) :
In fact, I have poked into the heart of our problems:
By playing a conservative game, players think they need to slow down the game by not playing at full pace or full intensity.
It is a fundamentally flawed interpretation of what is meant by slowing down the game.
3 Nov 2010, 16:32 pm
@willievz(willievz) : Grind them down is what they mean. Pittsburg Steelers style. Control the ball, control the clock.
3 Nov 2010, 16:35 pm
it’s when
both teams
slow down
the game
that it
becomes
interesting
nobody
gets
anything
done
3 Nov 2010, 16:49 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy) :
Yes, but take that half-hearted phase play of the Boks before the final hooter of the last game against Aus, when Beale kicked that penalty.
Tried to control the clock, but not with the required intensity.
3 Nov 2010, 16:59 pm
@willievz(willievz) : Yip. Will bite you if you get it wrong…
3 Nov 2010, 18:14 pm
Looking forward to the battle of the back rows. Pierre Spies is a show-pony. He’d rather be off entering in Mr Universe than getting down and dirty on the pitch in Dublin. Heaslip will show him how to play no.8
3 Nov 2010, 18:20 pm
@willievz(willievz) : hey willie sorry about the late response but I had to go and buy a present for a colleague who is leaving. Thanks for that input and agree with you about the taking it wide bit from the outset. They line deep and don’t seem to worry about the gain line anymore taking the ball as you say as far as the number 13. The worst thing you can do against them is get caught in 2 minds about your defensive lines. I wonder if the balance of our loose forwards should shift to more emphasis on attacking the rucks and tackle areas relying therefore on turnover ball than having the big ball carriers. One thing that does concern me about our forwards is there ability to hold onto the ball in contact or rip it out. We have big forwards with big muscles but the muscle co-ordinaton and strength in their grips doesn’t seem as good and strong as that of our competition.
3 Nov 2010, 18:40 pm
I hope stegmann gets his first cap on saturday as i think brussouw and him are the best two No sixes in sa rugby and as brussouw is not fit he should get a starting place v ireland but that is just my opinion.
3 Nov 2010, 20:42 pm
@gunther(gunther) :
Hahahahaaa… Gunther you are seriously funny. You probably make a fortune writing comedy script. If you don’t, you should be.
If Keo is not paying you hansomely, he should be ashamed of himself.
3 Nov 2010, 20:52 pm
my team for sat …
1.Jannie
2.Bismarc
3.Beast
4.Bakkies
5.Matfield
6.Daniels
7.Smith
8.Alberts
9.Hougard
10.Steyn
11.Habana
12.Lambie
13.Jacobs
14.Mvovo
15.Steyn
3 Nov 2010, 20:55 pm
maybe move frans to 12 and lambie to 10
3 Nov 2010, 21:01 pm
@baw(maxed) :
If fit, Jdv at 13 and Frans at 12. Lambie at 15 and M Steyn at 10. Not ideal with JdV at 13, but hey, not too many better options…….
3 Nov 2010, 21:08 pm
@whatever(whatever) :yea that would be good ! im keen to see lambie somwhere closer to the ball …i know people here dislike sharks atm but from on form he is the best flyhalf in the country ,however i dont want to disgard morne just yet , i think he is talented ,just lacking confidence -this years 3n has hurt the boks confidence
3 Nov 2010, 21:23 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis) : First you cry that Stegmann is not in the team .Then you make excuses that he is not matchfit .Make up your mind. Should he play,or not ..I can see from your posts that you rate him very highly.(which everybody should)But my concern has always been his match fitness and not his capabilities.Would you play him now?Yes or no.Honest opinion please.
3 Nov 2010, 21:29 pm
Inevitable
Keo pays me in keo dollars.
In turn I use them to pay the bonus of maevis.
As well as any other interest free non payable loans that she may require over the year.
3 Nov 2010, 21:59 pm
$45,050 Keo dollars I am now up to…..
What have you amassed now Gunther, being a ‘regular’?
3 Nov 2010, 22:07 pm
Gunther is as regular as Ghandi’s bowels.
I am looking to buy an island in the Seychelles with my keo loot.
3 Nov 2010, 22:42 pm
@gunther(gunther) : carefull was some pirate activity there not 2 long ago
4 Nov 2010, 06:09 am
#199 williefz, I’ll go with that then add that quick ball = metres gained. The AB’s know this and used the rules/interpretation/ref to slow SA ball and protect their own with RM et al sealing off; no rucking allowed.
It also shows where SA coaching staff are so weak. I don’t believe we have anyone who can do this sort of strategic training. DM was a gifted rugby player but has a high proportion of bone above the neck. Analyst he ain’t. PdeV strikes me as an instinctive coach who wants his team to play a certain style of rugby but can’t/won’t fill in the details as to how to make it winning rugby. So we’re left with Gold who must do this, school the forwards and the defence. Min chance.
4 Nov 2010, 07:04 am
@logie_Jumpbuck(logie_Jumpbuck) : Seagull time.
4 Nov 2010, 07:10 am
@husky(husky) : well said sir ! Problem is who do we go for after PdV ? Not much in SA unless they can tempt HM or even Plum ..
4 Nov 2010, 16:48 pm
@baw(maxed) : Interesting team, but I would definitely keep Jannie at tighthead and Beast at loosehead. No point in playing them both out of position.
4 Nov 2010, 16:50 pm
@baw(maxed) : Oh yeah, and clearly you’re a Sharks supporter (8 of them in your starting 15???). No-one but a Sharks supporter could put the lightweight show-pony Keegan Daniel ahead of Schalk.
4 Nov 2010, 17:00 pm
@gunther(gunther) :
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