Bok future looks bleak
22 Nov 2010
With just five Tests to rectify massive deficiencies and flaws, retaining the World Cup looks an improbable mission for the Springboks, writes RYAN VREDE.
There are no mid-year Tests in which to find synergy. Consider also that senior Springboks are unlikely to play in the two away Tri-Nations Tests. Even the optimists must admit the situation is dire.
Some would argue the Springboks were in a similar position at this point in 2006. Jake White’s Boks were woeful throughout that year, and White was granted a stay of execution thanks in large part to the victory over England in the final Test of the tour.
However, no comparisons can be drawn between the two campaigns because this team’s troubles run so deep that nothing short of a miracle is required for the Springboks to even contemplate becoming reacquainted with William Webb Ellis. Neither must a victory over England serve as a guarantee of a ticket to New Zealand for Peter de Villiers and his assistants.
The game has undergone a fundamental change on attack and defence with the introduction of the new breakdown law interpretations, one the Springboks’ coaches have not been able to master.
On attack they’ve persisted with a kick-chase approach that was instantly outdated by the ruck interpretations, while defensively they’ve routinely failed to stem the flow of teams that have understood how to exploit the greater attacking options the changes have offered. Tellingly, the Boks have never looked like improving in this regard.
The on-field mediocrity is undoubtedly undermined by the coaching staff’s fractured relationship, stemming from De Villiers’ outed quest to replace his assistants after the Tri-Nations.
Furthermore, it is also known that they have greatly differing philosophies on how the game should be played, with De Villiers and Muir campaigners for the cavalier, while Gold is in favour of a more pragmatic approach. Keo.co.za also reported recently that the squad is polarised in terms of their preferred attacking strategy. What we’ve seen on Saturday afternoons for the past six months is an ugly and utterly ineffective hybrid of those two philosophies.
De Villiers ultimately must be held accountable for this situation. He once famously told SA Rugby magazine that he is the CEO of South African rugby. Yet none of the leadership qualities associated with that self-appointed position have been evident.
There are secondary concerns: poor and myopic selections, De Villiers’ unwavering loyalty to senior players who are off form, and his idiotic offerings to the media. Time is not an ally if all these issues are to be addressed and resolved. I’m not filled with confidence this will happen, particularly since the first and most crucial step – acknowledgement – has not even been contemplated.
The players have been on this ride before, three years ago, but they surely have, or will soon, realise that this time is different. Now the bloke controlling the speed dial is a nutter who has cut all the safety harnesses. They cling on for dear life in the hope that it comes to a halt in Auckland on 23 October. But this cart is poised to derail spectacularly well before then.
72 Comments
22 Nov 2010, 09:27 am
**** dragons!
22 Nov 2010, 09:28 am
What an embarrassment to Bok rugby!
22 Nov 2010, 09:31 am
I am not at all sure that I even want to watch Saturday’s game agains The Poms. Setting myself up for major dissapointment methinks.
22 Nov 2010, 09:33 am
I am now more interested in finding the breaking point of SA Rugby and the ANC. How badly does the *** need to stuff up before he gets told to ef off?
22 Nov 2010, 09:33 am
poised to derail? It already has Ryan. And victory over England on Saturday?……no chance. England by +10. So so sad we have deteriorated to this level.
22 Nov 2010, 09:33 am
Sorry for the long post … or call it a rant if you will..
Where to begin my comments….
Let’s start with Vic as captain… i must say i was terribly disappointed with him not changing certain facets of the game – specially when we had to keep possession. I know that he is accustomed to stay with a gameplan what worked throughout the year but honestly he should have adapted – even in those conditions – at least try to even though i know personally that they get nailed if they don’t stay to the gameplan….. as player, he is doing well
Rest of the players……
Beast is currently doing well
Bissie is the shining light till he started to miss his lineouts… aggenee man… We were lucky Alberts scored that try with Bissie’s overthrow….
Jannie… Jannie wie?
Bakkies is improving and getting back to match fitness….monstered a scot in a tackle… looks a bit like the old Bakkies of 5 years ago…
Stegmann did well but he needs to do better… new in the boks so give him more time…
Juan… monster… needs to drop some weight….
Kankoffie… a poor man’s eight man…. he can run with the ball when there is gaps but for the rest he didn’t make any positive impact.
Alberts was immense in defence and made a positive impact when he came on – but is he a 80min man with that weight – now that the game is faster?. Time will tell.
Mulletthead cleaned quick but honestly keep him from kicking the friggen ball please…..
Ruan is sticking to the gameplan like snot aan in wolkombers but currently he is just messing up good ball….
Steyn imo plays to deep most of the time. Kicks well but too much…
Lammetjie… he will learn and did ok… needs to work on his kicking at the poles…… sierieaaaaaasly!
Volvo did well but need to chase those kicks like Basson
Jean … what the hell.. i rate this guy but goeie genugtig he is horrible at this stage…. lemme state this to all the WO haters… Jean is now worse that WO is… imo…
Frans is not a centre…. play him 15 asb… he had no positive impact in the last 2 games… imo we are wasting him at centre..
Aplon …. he was ok and he should ask for the ball after the game to see how it looks…
Einstein at the back is just as Kankoffie…. imo.. a poor man’s 15…..
The players do know that they will be dropped if they didn’t perform…… or will they cause we haven’t got anyone else?
Now regarding the coaching.
We have become lukewarm regarding what’s happening with our coaching… we are accepting mediocrity (and even worse) and try to spin some positives in posting stat’s, posting other coaches stats, trying positive arguments, hoping for the best, having “feelings” regarding our coaches,…… (i even read a post from a blogger on this site saying….” i have got a feeling that Snorre will get it right this weekend”… but imo he failed to understand that that feeling was constipation and had nothing to do with coaching…. a “feeling”….
)
Mense …. Snorre and kie has been coaching THE MOST EXPERIENCED BOK SIDE EVER for long enough… imo… Mense – daai ou weet nie wat hy doen nie.. eerlik…. he might be a good oke but he has been appointed to be the coach…. not to be a nice ou. He decides on the gameplan … halftime he vloeks and skree like a child whose dummy is lost….i have spoken to a few of the players and they honestly tolerate the guy as a coach…. Let me confirm… as a coach he is not suppose to be there… imo. We can spin his man management, his 3N victories, the BIL series and his win% but this guy is clueless regarding innovative coaching…if we keep him as a coach we will not win WC11 (cut and paste this please!) I can’t see any improvements….. please show them to me….. Snorre and Kie has overstepped the very fine line of being the coach and man management of his players….
Please show me how our rugby has gone “forward” in the last 3 years… i am listening….
Regarding Minder & Silver….. they can make a mean PP presentation at a conference but they are lost in Int rugby…. they are drowning…. (if anyone still rates any of these guy’s as a international coach – you must be joking!) Spin anyway you want it… these guys are drowning! Imo none if these guy’s will even be successful at S15 level…. none … but they are now our int coaches….
Will these guy’s get dropped? I don’t think so…. So in that case we will drop the WC11 trophy…
So let’s decide what do we want to drop… snorre en kie, the players or the trophy..
22 Nov 2010, 09:39 am
Worse than the inept coach and the ridiculous “game plan” is the inexorable march of Father Time. All — bar none — of the stalwarts, with a zillion caps and heaps of experience, are already past their sell-by date which no amount of rest and mollycoddling can erase. They’re simply too old.
And the back-ups who ought to have been groomed to succeed them are all as green as cos lettuces.
The succession plan was — and still is — utterly AWOL.
Jake’s trusty old oxen are all ready for the abattoir, there to be turned into dog food. PDV simply can’t use them any more, no matter how desperately he wants to. They’ll be rumbled by Italy, Samoa and Fiji.
22 Nov 2010, 09:39 am
So much for having depth!
22 Nov 2010, 09:41 am
“Must a victory over England serve as a guarantee of a ticket to New Zealand for Peter de Villiers and his assistants.”
Not sure about assistants but PDV is safe even when there will be 5 losses till WC. He as no reason to worry about.
22 Nov 2010, 09:48 am
As for Peter de Villiers – *”Hy **** die klok lui maar hy weet nie waar die bel hang nie!”*
22 Nov 2010, 09:50 am
Hoskins has no balls so no chance that PDIV will get fired.
22 Nov 2010, 09:58 am
@TheTackler(TheTackler) :
Oh you sad Yarpie I am going to bookmark this page and if we beat those teams….
But knowing the track record of this fake New Zealander, it will conveniently dissapear. Prat
22 Nov 2010, 10:01 am
Frans not a centre? It’s been his only genuinely good position. He is though not a 13, but that much is very obvious, bhe has always been our best 12, and should have been played there from the beginning of de Villiers reign, as Jean ofefers nothing, but for the breaks of his 2008 TNs, he has always been uncreative and muddled.
Bismarck is unreliable to the extreme.
Assistants? They are far from great, but they are far better than de Villiers. Getting rid of them will NOT solve the situation, especially given that nobody worthy of coaching the Boks will work with de Villiers. And they especially do not want to be propping up a quota who will ultimately receive all the glory! Ala 2009 when after having a disastrous friendly against Namibia, they ran to Plumtree who bailed them out by working on the same problems we’ve had this year ans 2008. But who was the man praised? You guessed it, the quota. The sad thing is that I foresaw all of this during the second Welsh test in 2008. I foresaw the problems that would take place, and have to date, predicted every rise and fall during his tenure. Was this because I am incredibly genius? No, but because I was willing to put my desire to put the Boks on a pedastle and see things for what they were. Even during the 2009 TNs we showed frailties, and for the rest of the time we’ve been well off the standards of a first class test side. But so many have refused to accept this. We either had the transformation, chip-on-the-shoulder, crew unwaveringly support de Villiers in view of their own agendas, or the die-hard Bok fans who were too proud to acknowledge any possibility that the Boks were in truth, not quite that good, a couple of dodgy wins is all it takes to start chest beating. And the sad fact is that were de Villiers could have expanded upon what Jake achieved and made us the greatest side on Eart, he has dragged us back into the dark days again. In fact, things are much worse than 2002. Straeuli’s side were far more competitive than this. Why does SA always do this? The short cut to nowhere, selecting a quota, as Hoskins himself stated to try and, yet again, prove a political point, and they stuck by it more than they’ve ever stuck by a good, honest coach. Remember how Mallett got fired? Well, now they got what they deserved. The Bok dream is over, and we will not win the WC, because we know exactly what will happen. The assistants will take the fall and the quota will be retained. To do otherwise would be against the grain of the new south Africa. A country to proud of? I’m finding it hard to feel that way.
22 Nov 2010, 10:02 am
@Staal(Staal) : Staal, your rant is highly appreciated. You sum up exactly what I feel, and it is not constipation. Let me add a few points to your argument, if I may:
1. We had two sides in the S14 final – both played excellent rugby under the new laws. A little conservative from the Stormers, but the game plan was evident and the defense was immense. The Bulls played to their strengths and knew how to score tries and to dominate phases.
However, these self same players look absolutely clueless on a rugby field when they don the green and gold. The defense is disjointed – half of them rush up and the other half hang back. They are utterly confused. The worst part of it to me is that it is becoming gradually worse every time the Boks play. It is glaringly obvious that there is little or no coaching in these areas at the Boks.
2. There is no plan on attack – my biggest concern of all. There are no backline moves, no passes through the hands; nothing. JDV who is an excellent distributor at the Stormers is now a crash ball player. Morne Steyn who is a “General” second to none at the Bulls is neither here nor there. He does not even tackle any more. Hougaard is going backwards at a rate of knots because he is confused. It is becoming gradually worse!!!!
3. We are now in a crisis situation where everyone believes that wholesale changes to the player base is going to make a difference. IT WILL NOT. Lambie, Jantjies, Mvovo, Daniel, Aplon et al are going to pay with their international careers for the stupidity of these coaches. F Louw has already paid the price this year. He is not half the player he was at the beginning of the year. Stegmann is following suit and so will Dewald Potgieter, Adriaan Strauss and Hargreaves.
You cannot expect any player excells at the Bulls, the Sharks or the Stormers to replicate that form at the Boks because the reason he shines at his province is because there is structure and they play as a team. Individual performances are the result of team efforts. Teams build their structures around key players, admittedly, but it takes time for those structures to develop and for every player to know his role.
The structure at the Boks is gradually falling to pieces and in any situation like this you need fresh input from outside. Whether the team is coached by the coaches or by the players is irrelevant – they are in a hole and they cannot see the light of day. PDV should have been sacked after the 3N, but it may not be too late for him to be given to the boot now to allow someone else to pick up the pieces and try and build a team for the WC. It can be done, but it is going to take a whole new team dynamic that demands the players to take more of a back seat and the coach leading the way.
I don’t know if there is a coach in this country with his head screwed on right that will take that chance. We are seriously stuffed with these clowns at the helm
22 Nov 2010, 10:02 am
@heboric(heboric) : @ 12, mate, i must honestly say that although Tackler is a wannabe New Zealander some of what he posts in 7 is wragtag spot on. imo…
22 Nov 2010, 10:04 am
If PDV is fired, whoever takes over will be receiving the biggest hospital-pass in rugby history.
PDV’s made his bed. He must sleep in it.
Oregan deployed/employed him, even though he knew his cadre really wasn’t the best man on offer. So it’s Oregan’s bed too.
Consequences.
They have to be borne.
22 Nov 2010, 10:04 am
What a poor performance by the boks. No gameplan whatsoever. These two assistent coaches can just aswell stop coaching rugby. Look how goog are there unions doing without them. PD should be fired finish and klaar.
22 Nov 2010, 10:08 am
@TheTackler(TheTackler) :
The gameplan is in fact the worst aspect of the Boks. As there simply isn’t one, Muir and de Villiers do not believe in a lot of structure or detail in any aspect of attack or defence. As for the senior Boks? Smit has been screwed around badly, having bulked up to play tighthead. Another stupid idea by de Villiers. But got better throughout the TNs and evidently still one of our most important players. Matfield and Bakkies are still without equal. Du Preez is essential. Smith is essential. So no, you are wrong, as are everyone else who plays this card.
But I will say this, de Villiers selections have mostly been a disaster, with only three positive selections and the rest been flawed and unsuccesful. Added to that, he has played more players out of position than any Bok coach before him, far more. We got to see Kirchner and now Frans on tour at 13, Jean on the wing, Olivier and adi on the wing, Adi at 12, Butch at 12, Pienaar at 15, Morne at 15, Kankowski and Rossouw at 6, Smit at 3, Bekker at 4 amongst others. all very poor. He has been unable to grow the squad past the core left behind bu Jake. He cannot discern talent and further more has been unable to use it. But this was evident years ago.
22 Nov 2010, 10:14 am
3. We are now in a crisis situation where everyone believes that wholesale changes to the player base is going to make a difference. IT WILL NOT. Lambie, Jantjies, Mvovo, Daniel, Aplon et al are going to pay with their international careers for the stupidity of these coaches. F Louw has already paid the price this year. He is not half the player he was at the beginning of the year. Stegmann is following suit and so will Dewald Potgieter, Adriaan Strauss and Hargreaves.
You cannot expect any player excells at the Bulls, the Sharks or the Stormers to replicate that form at the Boks because the reason he shines at his province is because there is structure and they play as a team. Individual performances are the result of team efforts. Teams build their structures around key players, admittedly, but it takes time for those structures to develop and for every player to know his role.
The structure at the Boks is gradually falling to pieces and in any situation like this you need fresh input from outside. Whether the team is coached by the coaches or by the players is irrelevant – they are in a hole and they cannot see the light of day. PDV should have been sacked after the 3N, but it may not be too late for him to be given to the boot now to allow someone else to pick up the pieces and try and build a team for the WC. It can be done, but it is going to take a whole new team dynamic that demands the players to take more of a back seat and the coach leading the way.”
———————————————————–
By far the most intelligent and accurate post I’ve read from another poster on here. This is the problem. And read this from de Villiers, his first interview as coach in 2008 as he outlined his vision. Has he not achieved it?
“Structure in rugby came from Australia, a country which doesn’t have a lot of rugby talent,” he explains. “I believe the more talent you have, the less structure there should be.”
22 Nov 2010, 10:14 am
SA rugby is in a very dark place right now. Barely six months ago (before the start of the international season) we were the envy of world rugby. I cannot believe things have gone downhill so fast. To me **** Muir as the backline coach is the main culprit. If our forwards don’t dominate, we loose the match, as simple as that. When was the last time our backs pulled one out of the fire for us? I can’t even remember that far back.
22 Nov 2010, 10:18 am
@AlphaTango(AlphaTango) :
Things were never right. Last year our defence was still poor, our attack still flacid, selections were still poor. Plumtree did enough to get us through two months of 2009 successfully, but it wasn’t enough, as these clowns couldn’t do any more. Saffers thought far more of themselves than the rest of the world did, that I assure you, and not many people outside of SA were too convinced by the Boks. But masking our flaws for two months last year was enough to blind the majority of people who were unwilling to see the truth or those who simply could not interpret the game well enough to see things as they truly were.
22 Nov 2010, 10:20 am
@TheTackler(TheTackler) : Hi T, I agree with you to some extent, but what will be the cost to the Boks if this idiot remains in his post? In particular, what will be the effect on the young players in the side?
They have undoubtedly already become accustomed to the culture of players telling the coach what to do and the flawed philosophy that players must express their individuality on the field. They are brought into the most unprofessional international set-up in world rugby. Take the doping scandal for example: PDV and Craig Roberts, in stead of telling the media that this was definitely an isolated event, blurt out to the media that they are concerned that the whole team could be affected because they all used the same suppliments. I mean, how stupid can you be? If this were so, it is the last thing you want the media or the IRB to know. Small wonder then that we are now becoming the target of the IRB with regard to dope testing. They already have the cross hairs focused on us for our poor discipline and foul play – why do you want them to focus even more on us?
I am sorry, but PDV and his whole coaching staff are going to destroy the little that remains of our credibility and it is going to take a generation of rugby players to rebuild it. In the meanwhile, the rest of the rugby world are progressing exponentially in all facets of the game. If we take too long to rectify the problem, we may never be able to catch up – never mind take the lead.
22 Nov 2010, 10:27 am
i went down under with the Bulls in this years S14,
i also went with down under with the boks on the 3N tour this year…. went to their practise sessions. played golf with them….. after the losses i really thought Snorre & Kie sal wakker skrik ans see that the players need guidance/coaching….
what a waste of money.. (for the latter)
22 Nov 2010, 10:38 am
Can’t add much else to the above, except to wonder if Peter Bills still thinks the scottish performance is a saddening indictment on the state of northern hemisphere rugby?
22 Nov 2010, 10:43 am
The dimwits that appointed PDV must also get the sack. The SARU management are useless – can anyone honestly say that Oregan is really the best and most qualified person to lead SA Rugby? I think not.
I’d prefer a true sportsman and gentleman like the internationally respected Morne DuPlessis. But wait Morne is white so he isn’t eligible for the job. I am so sick and tired of this racist QUOTA agenda plaguing our country.
My suggestion would be get John Mitchell to take over as caretaker coach from Dec to the WC. If we win the WC offer him a R10m bonus and a contract extension. He managed to turn a Lions team without any super stars around in a few months – imagine what he could do for the boks.
Mitchell is the guy to take over right away and if I was in SARU management I’d make it happen. I’d give him free range in selecting; his assistants, the squad, he may pull players from the S15 if he wants, damn – I’d allow him to do anything he wants as long as we get results.
22 Nov 2010, 10:55 am
I dont agree with the above statement. The Boks future does not look bleak.
It is too late to fire PDV so people who suggest that on this blog is just plain dumb.
All we need is another Eddie Jones type consult to provide some fresh advice. I think the whole coaching is stale. We need someone who thinks out of the box and knows the Boks strength and weaknesses. Someone who has played or coached against the Boks before.
If you look at the squad the only position where we lack depth is Flyhalf
Possible WC squad
1. Guthro, Beast
2. Smit (c), Bismarck, Chiliboy
3. Jannie, CJ (Sorry BJ)
4. Bakkies, Danie
5. Matfield, Bekker
6. Burger, Brussouw
7. Smith
8. Spies, Alberts
9. Du Preez, Pienaar, Ricky
10. M.Steyn Grant or Lambie Or Jantjies
11. Habana
12. JDV, Olivier
13. Fourie, JdJ
14. JPP, Basson
15. F.Steyn, Aplon
We have the players we just need to freshen up our coaching staff.
22 Nov 2010, 10:56 am
@Staal(Staal) :
how much money did you take off victor on the golf course?
22 Nov 2010, 11:00 am
@AlphaTango(AlphaTango) : Agreed. The last time the backs saved us was against Scotland 2008 I think. Jaque Fourie came on to score that wonder try.
22 Nov 2010, 11:04 am
@Couchcoach(GI POT) : Agree with fresh input. We need John Smit to bring back our structure and solidify us as a team again.
22 Nov 2010, 11:16 am
@iori Yagami(iori Yagami) :
Eddie Jones was called in to work on the Boks motion of the ball, that’s all he did. He wasn’t called in to build a gameplan, completely overhawl our defence and completely rework our attack. Thus you are wrong, another de Villiers fan boy that is too defiantly stupid to accept facts as you’d rather have the Boks fail so you can support “your own”.
22 Nov 2010, 11:18 am
@iori Yagami(iori Yagami) :
Wrong again. John is ca good decision maker, a great leader, but a captain CANNOT improvise a structure or develop a gameplan from scatch. It’s never been done in the entire history of sport, and will never be done a million years from now.
22 Nov 2010, 11:19 am
@Staal(Staal) : Just a pity your “poor man’s 8th man” was the only forward who can hold his head up after saturday’s performance. Even SArugby dot com rated him the highest in the team…
22 Nov 2010, 11:21 am
@iori Yagami(iori Yagami) :
Wrong again, the backs were a failure, as your beloved Adi was bashed around like a ping-pong ball. Fourie scored the winning try, but it was a jeckle and hyde performance from our forwards, who in the end managed to bludgeon their way to victory over Scotland. The only time our backs have ever outperformed the forwards under de Villiers was in the loss to Australia last year. Our backs were rampant, but our forwards were totally thumped, thus we had little platform for the backs.
22 Nov 2010, 11:23 am
@King Shark(King Shark) :
Actually Kankowski was one of the worst Boks. His only contribution was a very early break down the blindside that had scotland falling over themselves to shutdown. Other then that, he was a nonentity ball in hand, was poor in the tackle and his work rate was poor. Not a test quality 8, he hasn’t had one good test performance since his debut against Wales in 2007.
22 Nov 2010, 11:38 am
The players are really good. Kanko, Spies et al…it’s the coach and his ‘game plan’ that are stinking the place up.
Matfield and Bakkies are the key elements for the Boks in RWC 2011…but with that coach they may as well be the two locks for Otago’s first team.
Bring in a new coach now and we’re almost half way there to retaining the cup that has eluded the Kiwis since the introduction of lead free petrol.
22 Nov 2010, 11:39 am
@Couchcoach(GI POT) : Mate, this post should be emailed to Pdiv, Muir, Gold and Matfield right now….
22 Nov 2010, 11:46 am
Hmm,not a good start to the week!!! Take one (or two) on the chin if we can get rid of a coach who is hopelessly out of his depth? Weather forecast is 3 to -1 deg looking towards the end of the week.Even further out our comfort zone,Pomms having won two in a row now fancy themselves to win the W/C!! Going to be ugly
22 Nov 2010, 11:53 am
Here’s hoping PDV keeps his job as he deserves and Keo with all his bloggers move to Oranje, take the Blue Bulls, Heyneke Meyer and Steve Hofmeyer and allow us free thinking, forward thinking South Africans to build a better society where you not judged on how you speak, but rather on your performance record.
22 Nov 2010, 12:06 pm
@geo(geo) :
Forward thinking South Afticans? You mean the same people who thought vegetables cured aids? The same who believe that you should lower the pass rate to 34% to allow more “disadvantaged” people to succeed? the same people who constantly involved in corruption? The same who rape and destroy everything they come into contact with? The same people who have made South africa a more dangerous place than a WAR in Iraq and Afghanistan? LMFAO!!!!!!!! de Villiers has done nothing to make the Boks a better team but you claim he DESERVES his job? Just like the quotas who deserve their jobs at Eksdom (ESkom)? LMAO!!!! XD TOr the same incompetent losers who have erroded South Africa’s infrastructure to a level of degredation deemed critical? I literally cannot stop laughing. If all us educated folk go to the Freestate and are allowed to do our thing, just promise that you’ll stay away when the **** hits the fan elsewhere, we’ll enjoy a bright and successful future, whilst you’ll be surviving on aid from us and other agencies, LOL!!!! Good luck to you fool.
22 Nov 2010, 12:14 pm
and there goes the neighbourhood!
22 Nov 2010, 12:44 pm
Oh flower of Scotland !
22 Nov 2010, 12:57 pm
“on attack they’ve persistent….”
Ryan Vrede ‘journalist’.
22 Nov 2010, 13:12 pm
How much longer much longer must the loyal bok fans watch the boks being humiliated by the absolutely awful rugby they are playing at the moment.The deafeat against Scotland was the final nail in the bok coffin.Where do we go from here, the games against ireland and wales we won but our standard of playing was VERY poor and we were lucky to win those games.Snor should do the honourable thing for bok rugby and resign but he will not and i do not like to say the reason he will not resign but but the truth of the matter is he is the first non-white to become the head coach of the boks and the power and ego trip he is on at the moment is just to good to let go,but he should think of the legacy he will leave behind when he eventually leaves the bok management and that along with streauli he is one of the WORST bok coaches ever and that is how he will be remembered.
22 Nov 2010, 13:15 pm
Geo you must be on the planet dippy by what you blogged on #38
22 Nov 2010, 13:36 pm
@Nils(Nils) :
PDV tried to replace his assistant coaches and was turned down FLAT by everyone he approached, incl H. Meyer.
If they get rid of the assistants, PDV will be coaching alone
22 Nov 2010, 13:41 pm
@Alucard(Alucard) : He brought fresh input from outside, He told the boks exactly why teams are scared of them and this just amplified our confidence and ability. We need someone from outside to help with tactics, someone like plumtree or campese or even someone like Brian Ashton. Anyone from outside S.A. Who played or coached against the boks.
22 Nov 2010, 13:54 pm
Guys,
Honestly.
Tell me I am delusional.
But man for man, how many ABs would make the Bok side? Not more than 6.
22 Nov 2010, 14:39 pm
@willievz(willievz) :
3. O Franks
7. McCaw
10. Carter
14/11. Gear
12. SBW
15. Mils
22 Nov 2010, 14:43 pm
@iori Yagami(iori Yagami) :
Total rubbish!!! As if they needed to know from the outside that teams where scared of them, LOL! As I’ve stated, he came in to work on the motion of the ball, that’s his contribution. Either accept this fact or forever remain ignorant.
22 Nov 2010, 14:46 pm
@Couchcoach(GI POT) :
McCaw is no better than Brussow. And I would personally retain Morne, he suits Bok rugby far better. Frans is the most complete 12 on the planet, though SBW is very good. We also have better wings.
22 Nov 2010, 15:17 pm
I’ll take all of them except Franks & SBW (not yet). Plus I’ll take the Conrad Smith/Nonu combination (JDV & J Fourie are both world class individually, but I’ve never seen this awesome combination that everyone’s talking about) & Corey Jane.
22 Nov 2010, 15:26 pm
@seamus(seamus) : Then we can assume all three are pretty much safe no matter what.
22 Nov 2010, 15:36 pm
Like Afirmative action , Krusty is here to stay.. The world needs for him to stay, how else can we show the world what a failure AA is? Hoskins needs to be shown how his quota coach has been a failure, rather than taking a person who had better credentials.
Leave them alone… Their long term plan should now become the benchmark for epic quota fails.
22 Nov 2010, 20:22 pm
@Alucard
Woah..pick Morne over Carter – thats crazy – and your calling peeps delusional. Careful – glass houses, stones and all that.
I tend to read your post with some reflection as you appear to know a thing or 2 but on this point you might want a rethink.
We pick Morne becuase we dont have better atm. Carter would most certainly, if he had to become a south african tomorrow and somehow be allowed to play for South Africa become our first choice pivot!
Seriously, I cant stress this enough – Carter is a hall of famer, Morne hes just another good fly-half!
Challenge to you. What can Morne do that Carter doesnt do better?
Kick at poles…marginally, but does Carter ever really miss?
Running..eish no.
Tacktical kicking…Unless you count p o e s i n g the ball so it comes down with ice – not a chance.
Lets not start with McCaw, he IS the best player on the planet – deal with it.
22 Nov 2010, 20:24 pm
@Alucard might owe you an apology – think it was Willie that called himself delusional
22 Nov 2010, 22:15 pm
@Couchcoach(GI POT) : 48
Yep, those were the same positions I had in mind, except for wing (Gear). At current I would pick C.Smith over Fourie, and Nonu over SBW.
Here is my take on their starting XV versus what we have:
1 Tony Woodcock – not much to choose between him, Gurthro and Beast, but I tend to back the Saffas here
2 Mealamu – will be 3rd choice after Bismarck, Smit
3 Owen Franks – will probably start ahead of Jannie / BJ; Carl Hayman will definitely start ahead of those two
4 Thorn – Bakkies for me even though I rate Thorn
5 Donnelly – Matfield and Bekker by a mile
6 Kaino – J.Smith by a mile; Burger, Alberts, Potgieter, Frans Viljoen all get my nod ahead of him too
7 McCaw – this is tougher than many might think, I am not as much on the McCaw-bandwagon as others but certainly won’t disagree that he is the best allround player on the planet. Brussow better on the deck though. Both of them certainly in match 22
8 Kieran Reid – I will pick Burger, Spies, Kanko and Alberts ahead of him, maybe Vermeulen and certainly Joe van Niekerk
9 Cowan – will be 6th choice scrummie in SA
10 Carter – will certainly start
11 Gear / Roco – will not start ahead of Habana on top form
12 Nonu – will probably start ahead of JDV / De Jong, certainly ahead of Olivier
13 Smith – might not start in an SA team, but I will pick him and Nonu as combination. You mentioned SBW, who might fight it out with Fourie for the bench. Mossie, at this point, gets the nod, but I rate SBW
So at this point, both AB centres
14 Gear / Sivivatu – probably start ahead of JPP and Aplon, but I quite like a fit JPP as a test winger and will give him the nod here
15 Mils – superb player, but ahead of F.Steyn in a test match? Brave call. At fullback we also have Viljoen/Daniller/Ludik/Taute/Joe Pietersen who are coming through the ranks, but all behind Mils certainly
22 Nov 2010, 22:19 pm
@Sasori(Sasori) : Hehe certainly me
22 Nov 2010, 22:25 pm
@Alucard(Alucard) : 50. Hahahahahahaha Morne over Carter??? Ur not well!!!
22 Nov 2010, 22:47 pm
Would all you idiots stop bickeringa bout player selection? The same **** was happening when Rudolph was coach – we bwere bitching and moaning about particular selections. Its pointless arguing about who is teh strongest oarsman on aboat when teh fool at the tiller is steering us off course anyway.
Jake took the same players that Rudoplh made such a hash of, and turned them into World Champs.
ITS NOT ABOUT SELECTIONS: ITS ABOUT WHAT THE COACH TELLS THOSE SELECTIONS TO DO. There is very little difference in quality between first chousce and second choice anyway – not enough to swing the game so much that we lose to SCOTLAND! FFS Griquas could probably beat Scotland! That is PURELY due to lack of leadership and inability to coach.
So keep your eye on the ball, and demand Divvy’s resignation or that he be fired NOW. There is only one way that we will be competitive at the RWC – that is if Heyneke Mayer, Coetzee, Rassie or Jake gets appointed and takes over NOW. We have FIVE TESTS left to get the Boks right. That is already probably not enough. The time to act is NOW. Else we have no chance. All Bok rugby supporters must stop their petty bickering and act NOW.
Probably nobody else will want to take over a poisoned chalice from Divvy now, so probably only Jake will be prepared to take over. At least he will get teh boks conditioned properly, and put in a decent defnsive suystem. that will get us part of the way. Perhaps teh bulls can lend Slaptjips to the boks for a few months as well to get teh backline firing.
This is fu@king INEXCUSABLE! If HOSKINS does nothing now, I want his head too.
22 Nov 2010, 22:48 pm
@willievz(willievz) :
Mills vs Steyn
Mills brings major attacking ability and is superb in every aspect of the game. I’d pick him.
Steyn is a big guy for the amount of talent he has, but not quite the same 15 as Mills. I would argue that he has very good abilities as a 15(kicking / positioninig) but lacks pace and a good attacking game. Problem with moving him to 10/12 I think he might struggle as I’m not sure hes the best decision maker. Perhaps with time/experience he could be a great 12.
I like my 15 with good counterattacking/attacking abilities – specially these days – but MUST be solid under the Gary Owen and his kicking game must be better then most.
As an aside Kirchner is SOLID, and lately hes been trying to change it up – but the man tries hard and wont let his team down but is decidely average when compared to the above 2.
22 Nov 2010, 22:50 pm
@SjamBok(SjamBok) : 59
That is exactly the point I am trying to make.
Man for man we are better than the ABs, but for a few positions.
So something else is wrong. Coaching, anyone?
22 Nov 2010, 22:52 pm
@Sasori(Sasori) : Fair enough.
If I have to pick one of them tomorrow, I will also go for Mils.
But as an asset for the future, and one for the big occasion, I will back Frans. After all, he is still only 23…
22 Nov 2010, 22:57 pm
@SjamBok(SjamBok) :
Ageed @ 59
They have to act now, as soon as the Boks get back to SA the decision needs to be made……… Hoskins is like a dear in the headlights…….frozzen to the spot and incabable of making the hard decisions….someone needs to kick him in the nuts and wake him up!
22 Nov 2010, 23:08 pm
@willievz(willievz) : Frans has that X-factor. Or he had it and something happened.
I just cant help feel that If he were born a New Zealander he would be regarded as a world class 12 right now.
23 Nov 2010, 01:02 am
Frans can’t pass. He’s not a midfielder and he’ll never be one.
Frans is a fullback. Only a fullback. He’s too slow to be a winger, which is the only other non-passing position.
23 Nov 2010, 02:13 am
WillieVZ @ 56
gee, someone must be wrong then.
The bunch that is ‘better’ went 1-5 this year and is now struggling to a positive-points differential after Tests against the 3 weaker of the 4 Home Nations.
Meanwhile, the ‘weaker’ players went 6-0 and have smashed the Home Nations by big margins.
Mils a tough call over F. Steyn ?!
Kaino – probably the player of the season so far – 5th choice in SA, let alone to Juan Smith, once great but looking average of late ?
Frankly, there’s no hope for you.
23 Nov 2010, 03:16 am
Wallabies are back into 2nd place on IRB rankings and the Boks down to 3rd again. Defeat by England will probably drop them to 4th. So much for “world champions”. What a fiction!
23 Nov 2010, 03:46 am
Have been lurking long enough but feel like throwing in 2cents worth. Regardless of who are the best players discussion it falls flat on its face. Over the last few years it has been apparent that combinations with talent – are the key to a good team. Get any great player back from internationals, slot them into a provincial game and it just doesnt gel. What we are seeing is purely – players out of position or chopping and changing happening on a constant basis. Henry got bitten in the butt against the French for his rotation policy and having players out of their natural position. It was totally his policy, not the players nor the ref that cost NZ a chance at the World Cup. Now Australia is consistently chopping and changing combinations trying to find the right mix, and so is SA. The All Blacks on the other hand (having learned their lesson) are running the same team with slight adjustments, but still improving their combinations. Their game against Ireland was nothing flash, very basic, no slick moves – in fact they spent most of the time showing little in the way of brillance, which is why the Irish sliding defence was almost capable. But their combinations were brilliant with support play etc. Their Scottish game was also largely devoid of slick moves – just the basics. When players do ordinary things well on the field – it appears to look extraordinary.
Any great team is quite ordinary man-to-man against another team but the difference is how they play together.
Having been involved in coaching (3 losses over the last 3 years) we look for getting the combinations right and make ordinary school boys look like extra-ordinary players – just down to using their natural talents and skills. Makes it so much easier on coaching a game plan to expand on their abilities. What is great is that ‘strangers’ come to their games because they have never seen such ‘skill’ and gamemanship from youth before. And it is nothing more than having the ability to observe talent and where best to utilise it. Combinations. Control of a game revolves around the position of 7, 8, 9 and 10. Work the best into those positions and the team begins to select itself depending on how you intend it to play.
23 Nov 2010, 05:06 am
KEO – please start an online petition to get rid of our 3 coaches. You can include the administration to if you like but that may be a distraction.
23 Nov 2010, 12:47 pm
@TheTackler(TheTackler) : @Sasori(Sasori) :
Tackles, I tend to agree with you here, if we view it from an SA perspective. For SA, he is most useful at 15 as a threat to the opposition game plan. The opposition 10 will be reluctant to kick the ball down field from his own 22 due to the genuine threat of a drop kick, and will instead opt to kick the ball out to touch. And if there is one aspect of our play that the opposition genuinely fear, it is the lineout.
However I also agree with Sasori. I can’t help thinking that if he had been brought up in NZ, he would be an outstanding 2nd 5/8. He would have more gifted runners on both his shoulders, who could aid in decision-making and call the appropriate move. Because he is aided so much more in the offense process, his distribution can only but improve.
In SA, the 12s usually attack the gain line ferociously on first phase to set up a platform for a quick recycle, with little regard for distributing the ball outside them. This behaviour, not necessarily adverse per definition, is so institutionalised in our rugby at all levels that it will be very difficult to amend, at least in this generation. However, this does reduce the scope for our 12s to be players of vision and play the situation.
However, as a 2nd 5/8 in NZ, Steyn would have more time on the ball to make a decision, particularly on first phase. NZ teams have close to mastered the art to attack the gain line without standing flat, and to allow themselves that extra second for appropriate action.
This is also why the rush defense is the most effective defensive weapon against them, and why the drift simply allows them more time on the ball. This was one of the primary reasons why the AB backline picked up so much momentum on the carry and ultimately dominated the collisions with their opposite numbers. And in the SA case, there was also no-one cornerflagging behind the backline to cover the linebreaks or to assist the breakdown from behind the gate (as the Aussies did).
24 Nov 2010, 07:55 am
South Africa has everything going for it but we try everything possible to hold our success and development back!
1) We have the talent and the players.
2) We have the numbers of players.
3) We have all the correct systems in place to stimulate good standards with our schools and underage group levels.
4) We have excellents coaches and fitness trainers.
5) We have good competitions in place at all levels ie. Craven Week, u19, u21 and Currie Cup.
6) We have excellent Sports Scientist and Acedemies across the country.
7) We have the financial resources.
8) We have good TV coverage.
9) And most importantly we havery huge interest in the game and therefore will always have good crowd support.
However, we do everything in our power to disrupt our success and development in the game. We are our own worst enemies. If we got our act together there would be no one coming close to us. I reckon the rest of the World must just be so thankful that we just continue to be so disorganised and unprofessional in this modern world.
24 Nov 2010, 08:17 am
@willievz(willievz) : Good analysis, but the fact is he hasn’t grown up in NZ where you play running rugby from U8 upwards and even the props can run and pass and aim for the gaps. The result is, he can’t pass. So use him in a (generally) non-passing position. Fullback is his proper spot.
That long boot is, indeed, an option-eliminator for his opponents and he’s the only player in world rugby, and Bok rugby, capable of getting that extra 10m.
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