Twickers result is irrelevant
24 Nov 2010
JON CARDINELLI writes that backing experimental selections at Twickenham would have been better than sending the first-stringers out to avenge wounded pride.
The Boks broke a 10-year losing streak in Dublin, a victory that was important in the World Cup context. They picked up more psychological points in Cardiff the very next week. It wasn’t pretty, but the Bok had struck two big blows before a defining 2011 season.
Then Scotland brought them to earth. Many people lamented the end of a Grand Slam opportunity when in the greater scheme of things, the Grand Slam should never have been as important as building towards the World Cup.
Last Saturday’s game was a waste with Peter de Villiers neglecting to back more fringe players in a starting capacity. Nothing was learned in terms of how the second-stringers could handle the starting responsibilities. Those lessons would have been worth the risk of defeat.
But De Villiers blew that opportunity, and failed in his own personal ambition to stay on course for a career-saving Grand Slam. He’s blown another opportunity ahead of this Saturday, picking his strongest side yet again, as a win against England could be what keeps him in the job.
If the Boks beat England, they will head back to South Africa with a scorecard that reads three Test wins from four. It may be considered a pass in the results department, but when it comes to developing new and exciting talent before a World Cup year, the head coach and the selectors have failed.
Lwazi Mvovo has been rushed into the Bok starting side due to Bryan Habana’s tour-ending injury, and wouldn’t be starting if Habana was fit. Pat Lambie has been limited to three second-half cameos on this tour, while Francois Hougaard has also been used erratically.
Willem Alberts has produced two powerful bench performances that suggest he may be South Africa’s new super-sub in 2011, but he deserved a start in the Scotland fixture. Lions flyhalf Elton Jantjies has done nothing but carry tackle bags, and would have been better served conditioning for an important Super Rugby tournament.
That the Boks would embark on a Grand Slam tour a year before the World Cup is a bungle at administrative level. No team should be expected to send full-strength squads to the north after a full year of rugby, especially just 11 months before the all-important tournament. This should be a time for testing new combinations and blooding new players.
Somehow this tour has become more about results and preserving De Villiers’s job rather than developing and strengthening new combinations. De Villiers missed another chance to try something different when he named his match 22 on Tuesday. He listed conditions as an explanation, but why bring the other players to the northern hemisphere if you’re not going to trust them to deal with the weather? Sending them on in difficult conditions midway through the second half doesn’t help their development or the synergy of the team, and it’s this kind of mismanagement and lack of common sense that’s characterised a disappointing tour.
Lambie should have been entrusted with a starting opportunity from the outset. If the Boks were really adamant about picking up the psychological points against World Cup opponents Ireland and Wales, then you could understand the decision to stick with Morne Steyn at No 10 as well as several other safe selections. But there was no sense in sending the seniors out against Scotland.
There’s even less reason to send them out against England. The Poms are hitting some form, and there’s a good chance a full-strength Bok side could come short yet again. A loss at Twickenham for the Boks’ first-choice team would render the tour a failure, as nothing new would have been learned, and two big defeats would have been suffered. But if De Villiers backed more youngsters in this final fixture and they performed (or alternatively, fared poorly) then he would know what he had in those players.
If there’s an argument that it’s unfair to ask players like Lambie and Jantjies to play now, it calls into question why De Villiers selected them to tour in the first place. Most of the fringe players will get a chance against the Barbarians on 4 December, but this fixture cannot be used to gauge a player’s aptitude for Test rugby.
449 Comments
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24 Nov 2010, 21:58 pm
Just for skoppie:
FIRE THE CLOWN PDV AND HIS 2 JOKER ASSISTANTS
This team should be 75%+ None of this losing to Scotland bullsh*t.
24 Nov 2010, 22:03 pm
I think I might count the sum total of true Springbok rugby supporters on this thread on exactly one hand (and an extra thumb)
Zinto
Willievz
Cab
Adi
Geo
Yetirat
doubt I can find too many others
maybe a couple fence sitters like bananaboy, iori yagami, transformation, and perhaps couple more I may have inadvertently skipped past in my haste to highlight the obvious
That the majority of this negatively bred, negatively endorsed and negatively indoctrinated heathenish delinquent derelict dichotomous diametrically opposed tribe of whitewashed woosie wetassed washed up feeble palefaced pratassed pricks are so far removed from being true SA rugby patriots, and true Springbok supporters, that they would be far better served heading for the very gas chambers and funeral parlors of prejudice that they still almost 20 years after the demise of their indoctrinated supremacy baited breeding ground of pugnacious pestiferous propensity, and which they have not yet learned what the underlying principles of humanity and humaneness represent.
24 Nov 2010, 22:07 pm
I support the Boks. Not the coach before the Boks.
Good results = happy times
Bad results = sad times
Good coach = good results
Bad coach = bad results
Simple equation, really.
24 Nov 2010, 22:10 pm
@askanaz1(askanaz1) : Hey, you forgot about me, spend many a pound travelling after them, even through Jake Whites bullsht
24 Nov 2010, 22:10 pm
Bad coach = bad results = gets fired = not accepting MEDIOCRITY.
Simples.
24 Nov 2010, 22:12 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon) : …and as true fans we also demand more
I think that is fair?
24 Nov 2010, 22:12 pm
@JL1(JL1) : 404
Yeah… I was at Millenium Stadium 2 weekends ago and will be at Twickenham this weekend cheering on the team.
How utterly unpatriotic of me
24 Nov 2010, 22:16 pm
JL1 is a true patriot (perhaps a little of a reluctant one) but deep down underneath everything the man is a true Springbok supporting patriot, through and through.
24 Nov 2010, 22:17 pm
@askanaz1(askanaz1) : 402. And you see yourself as a true green blood supporter
Ehh?Because you text at 50 words per minute on a Nokia 2210 until yup get blisters on your fingers, Whooppee whoo champ, glad you think that you support them
24 Nov 2010, 22:19 pm
@askanaz1(askanaz1) : I reckon we all are on this site because love the Bok, we just hate losing and the bitter pill that goes with it
I see PDV loves the Boks maybe more than what he should as it clouds his judgement from time to time
24 Nov 2010, 22:20 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon) : I feel your pain, worst place on earth to lose is at Twickenham
Bloody Pomms remind you every day, but they keep forgetting about the many times we trampled them
24 Nov 2010, 22:20 pm
Jake White was hounded.
Rudolph Streauli was lynched.
Markgraaf was tarred and feathered.
Viljoen was persecuted.
Du Plessis was tortured.
Sh*t, even Mallett was fired for voicing a ‘non-embarrassing’ and very reasonable opinion…
And here we are, asked to believe that the criticism of PDV’s dreadful results is somehow ‘racist’ and ‘unpatriotic’? Get out of town.
24 Nov 2010, 22:22 pm
@JL1(JL1) : 411
Oh yes, its started at work already… Wearing the Bok jersey in on Friday.
24 Nov 2010, 22:22 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon) : Spooner, one day you must meet up with the ‘London Keo’ Lads (I am the quota Lass) !!!
At The Fox, pre match…..good bunch, 4man who organises it is a Sharkie !!!
JL1 and PaulD our Stormers supporters now Supa is back in SA I am the only Blue Bull supporter!
24 Nov 2010, 22:24 pm
@JL1(JL1) : Hello
One of your ‘Bloddy Pom Mates’ saw that!!!
Prepare for humiliation on a grand scale!!
24 Nov 2010, 22:26 pm
@carol(carol) : Lol, sounds an elite group. Where is the Cheetah, Lion, Welwitschia, Griffon, Puma and Mielie boer?
One day Carol. This weekend I’m tied up with clients.
Still can’t believe you chose the Bulls
24 Nov 2010, 22:29 pm
I count the following bad coaches in quick succession the past decade or so
Andre Maakgraaf, Harry Viljoen, Rudolph Streauli, Jake White
how many of those got fired?
the only ones that got fired are the good ones, Carel Du Plessis and Nick Mallett, and one outright racist who got caught red handed using the K word in semi public.
The other outright schmucks, Streauli, Viljoen and White walked Scott free, Viljoen baled because he couldn’t handle the heat, and White and Streauli the 2 absolute w@nkers of note got given the thumbs up all the way to their ignominious end or else their flukety fluke fallacious crowning glory.
White escaped the ax and so did Streauli, all on account of this feeble impostor of a fallacy driven in-dignified delusional obsession with a lucky packet Russian roulette syndrome called the ‘World Cup’ which it patently isn’t, its a setup song and dance that comes around once every 4 years with groups split into setup pools with mostly the obvious 8 getting to the quarters, then a lottery of who falls through the cracks and who gets the lucky draw to the final showdown where one team or another gets crowned ‘World champs’.
Utter bullsh’t baffling brains, no such thing. World Champs are those consistent winners who take on all comers, week in and out, season in and out and come out trumps, those are World Champs, not lucky packet psychosomatic schitzo’s who pull a flukety fluke win over the last 7th ranked team standing once in a 4 year blue moon.
24 Nov 2010, 22:30 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon) : We are a bit low on the other teams, you are right. Just the ‘Big 3′……
We are very inclusive though!
I met some Sharks fans in Oxfordshire today, they were very surprised when I congratulated them on winning the Currie Cup, they were even more surprised to know that my team were the Blue Bulls
Seriously, we will have to get you along sometime…..it is a laugh, although I worry when they talk in Afrikaans and then laugh!!
24 Nov 2010, 22:31 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon) : She was brainwashed with brandy and coke
24 Nov 2010, 22:34 pm
@askanaz1(askanaz1) : 417. And Pietie Divvy f’kadilly is going to join that ignominious grouping…
Funny that, incompetence truly is colourblind…
24 Nov 2010, 22:37 pm
Some people have veeeeeerrrrry short memories if they don’t remember the amount of stick White and Streauli received, including on this website.
What PDV is facing now is nothing new or abnormal.
But using their fanciful argument of “if it happened to our previous sh*t coaches then we should allow it to happen again”:
1. Streauli
Look what happened when we allowed him to continue in the job to the world cup – our most embarrassing World Cup ever and our first and only quarterfinal defeat in the competition.
2. White
Their argument is that White only won the World Cup due to a “fluke lucky packet” draw.
Well if this is the case, then surely they are hoping that PDV gets a fluke lucky packet draw? How else is he going to succeed if his results are roughly on a par with those 2 other bozos. Lets hope we don’t meet either of Australia, NZ or France otherwise we are done for.
Yes, very sensible arguments to keep PDV in the job
24 Nov 2010, 22:38 pm
Out to fetch a son
so long
24 Nov 2010, 22:39 pm
Me too, night all.
Nice one Carol, I’ll have to join you guys one day.
24 Nov 2010, 22:42 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon) : 421. Its deflection, Woody… I’ve said it before. Its like these poorbuggers are in the grips of Stockholm syndrome, with PdV, TrickyDicky and Goldilocked as the kidnappers…
With the syndrome victims think any lack of violence is an act of kindness and they illogically grow attached to the perpetrators…
With PdV, his farcical farkups and doing nothing are likewise seen as acts of kindness. And the first thing these silly victims do is blame Jake White… WTF? They forget about their “kidnapper”, PdV the skelmpie…
24 Nov 2010, 22:49 pm
@carol(carol) : Hahaha! But you are different
24 Nov 2010, 22:53 pm
@carol(carol) : Are you joining for the Baabaas game?
Friday I am doing the SA old vets vs the English old vets at the Stoop
24 Nov 2010, 22:56 pm
Snow and temperatures between 2 degrees and -2 degrees predicted for London on Saturday…Bokke are going to have a hard time, cause as they proved, they cannot get going in very cold and wet conditions.
24 Nov 2010, 23:14 pm
@JL1(JL1) : Sadly this time I am elsewhere, although I would actually rather be with you lot…..It would be funnier!
Have fun, and have a pint on me!! I will settle up next time
24 Nov 2010, 23:16 pm
Result irrelevant?????????
Muir now saying heads will roll if England wins at Twickers. So the result appears most relevant indeed.
So what is wanted? A win or a loss???
24 Nov 2010, 23:18 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon) : I will tell you when we next meet!
See you….
24 Nov 2010, 23:33 pm
@carol(carol) : I will have two pints on you, pity that you are not joining us
Next time, maybe the boxing day at Wembley
25 Nov 2010, 01:49 am
@ispy(ispy) : when did Muir say that?
25 Nov 2010, 03:57 am
@askanaz1(askanaz1) : Id like to hear some reasons. While there have been legitimate rugby reasons given to your ‘chosen’ they don’t seem to respond with objective responses. Its all about race and its so sad and pathetic to have rugby supporters arguing amongst each other about politics. Criticism against a coach while his team is losing is part of sport, any sport for that matter, its those idiots and you included who see criticism as a political agenda. The voices in your head calling for racism is exactly what it is producing. So please stop focusing on race, because theres no place for racist paranoia in the sport of rugby.
25 Nov 2010, 04:45 am
Sporting Life – Rugby Union News
MUIR AWARE OF PRESSURE
By Alex Lowe, Press Association Sport Rugby Union Reporter
South Africa’s backs coach **** Muir admits the Springboks management team could face the axe if they lose to England at Twickenham on Saturday.
The reigning world champions finished bottom of the Tri-Nations table and their 21-17 defeat to Scotland last week has ramped up the pressure.
Muir insisted South Africa have to approach the England game as an opportunity to right the wrongs of Murrayfield – but he knows what to expect if it goes badly.
“Our public back home epitomise what it is about. It is ruthless,” said Muir.
“They expect you to come over here and get the win and if you don’t get the result then there are going to be heads that are going to roll.”
The Rugby Football Union consistently backed Martin Johnson and his coaching team to remain in place through to the 2011 World Cup, even when things were not so rosy in the England garden.
But even with the defence of their title less than a year away, the Springboks have to work in a very different environment.
“In South Africa it is probably a bit more volatile than it is here,” Muir added.
“(In that environment) you have to believe in yourself, you have got to believe in your management team and your bosses.
“You have got to have a shared vision and hang in there in the tough times.
“From a coaching perspective you know most coaches end up getting fired so if you trust what you are about you can achieve what you ultimately set out to achieve.
“To be as good as we need to be at the World Cup, we are slightly off our pace. We need to do some clear thinking to make sure we are in line for that.”
South Africa secured narrow victories over Ireland and Wales before losing to Scotland and head coach Peter De Villiers has already identified England as their toughest challenge.
“Martin Johnson has had to go through some tough times but hats off to him for sticking to what he has. He has introduced some very exciting young players,” said Muir.
“The balance they have is good. The style of play is good. It will be a massive challenge for us.
“It has been a wake-up week for us after not getting the result against Scotland. England are really playing good rugby and we have got to have our wits about us.
“We are a proud nation and we are not proud of what happened at the weekend.
“We have to face up to the facts that we did not deliver and fortunately we have another week to be able to redeem ourselves.”
The last time South Africa played at Twickenham on the back of a defeat to Scotland was in November 2002 – the so-called ‘Battle of the Boks’.
South Africa lost all discipline as Corne Krige led his side on a trail of destruction. The Springboks had a player sent off after 23 minutes and England ran out 53-3 winners.
Muir admitted South Africa have at times put too much emphasis on brute force and he warned they will have to be much smarter against an England side now ranked fourth in the world.
“It has counted against us at times when we have been too hell-bent on being physical. You have to have the balance right,” said Muir.
“You need to be physical but you also need to be astute.”
25 Nov 2010, 05:03 am
@ispy(ispy) : 434 good that Muir knows the axe is waiting…
25 Nov 2010, 05:04 am
ESPN-SCRUM
High Noon for De Villiers – Stephen Nell -nov 23 2010
There are some things we take for granted in South Africa and beating Scotland at rugby is right up there with sunny skies, big steaks and spacious hotel rooms.
I refer to the latter because I am in a supposedly swanky hotel in London, but my home for the next two weeks will be a decidedly cramped little room as I continue to cover South Africa’s latest ill-fated tour to the northern hemisphere.
Saturday was my fourth visit to Murrayfield and I consider myself fortunate to have missed one of South African rugby’s darkest hours when the Springboks lost there in 2002. I had consoled myself that it was merely part of the blip that was the Rudolf Straeuli coaching era and would not happen again. Well, at least not for a decade or three, maybe even four…
Now please don’t accuse me of typical South African arrogance. Having covered rugby for a long time I have learned when and where to give credit and when and where it’s due. Yes, I believe Scotland deserve credit for beating South Africa on the weekend.
But should it really have happened? Anyone who follows rugby in South Africa will testify to the vast reservoir of talent in the country. I believe Scotland remain a limited side in spite of the weekend’s win and have as much chance of winning the World Cup as their football team, whereas the sky is the limit for South Africa if they channel their resources properly.
Last week, after the Wales game, I wrote a column for the Afrikaans daily newspapers in South Africa questioning whether the Springboks have really progressed in spite of their tour victories over Ireland and Wales.Had Ronan O’Gara’s conversion attempt been a centimetre to the left, South Africa would have been left ruing in their wastefulness after being 23-9 up. They held on to win 23-21.
What saved them at the Millennium Stadium was their champion spirit and the Welsh inferiority complex. Wales had the team to beat a South African outfit not playing close to their potential, but did not believe in themselves and the Boks knew it.
And then came Scotland – a match South Africans regard as a routine victory. The only thing is that the Scots were smarting after being thrashed by the All Blacks and the Boks had been riding their luck to a point where it papered over some obvious cracks.
South Africa defended their line desperately in the second-half to see off the threat of Wales, but the Boks’ tackling was actually quite atrocious in the first-half. That was also the case in the Tri-Nations, in which they lost five out of six games. Defence has traditionally been a South African strength and the Stormers were the most effective defensive unit in the Super 14.
For those that believe South Africans were reluctant to embrace the new interpretation of the breakdown laws, consider that the Bulls and the Stormers contested the Super 14 final.All the tools were there for Springbok coach Peter De Villiers and his lieutenants, **** Muir and Gary Gold, to have a cracking international season.
The rot did not start at Murrayfield. We could still excuse last year’s European tour based on South Africa winning a series against the British & Irish Lions, as well as the Tri-Nations. However, the Boks have now won only 8 of their last 16 Tests, a statistic that proves they are a declining force in world rugby ahead of Saturday’s showdown against England in Twickenham. This is a match that may well determine whether the coaching team stays or goes before the World Cup.
South Africa have an outstanding coach like Heyneke Meyer as a possible long-term successor to De Villiers and there is no reason that their rugby bosses should consider it necessary to tolerate failure. Not for the first time then it’s high noon for a Springbok coach at Twickenham. Jake White survived the chop with a 25-14 win in 2006. It will be interesting to see how Peter De Villiers ultimately reflects on the clash of 2010.
25 Nov 2010, 05:12 am
@Transformation(Transformation) : Sure but a couple of things spring to mind – be careful what you wish for
And – do have to wonder about the players themselves. Haven’t heard any expressions of support for the coaching staff. What are thoughts of the players???? You can’t tell me that they’re sitting back taking this nonsense – career, reputations etc. Haven’t heard a whisper about their allegiance to Krusty’s great game-plan, other than having difficulty in executing it. So do they have any belief if it/him at all????
25 Nov 2010, 05:57 am
@ispy(ispy) : good question. I think any bok wants to win all the time, but at some point they must start asking the question if the coach is good enough to guide them to victory
25 Nov 2010, 07:08 am
@ispy(ispy) : 437 in that case Pdv is his own worst enemy, why choose players who you can tell – at training – have not bought into your strategy? Deans did a thorough clean-out of all the ‘power cliques’ in the wallabie team and ONLY those players who were willing to learn & implement his ways got picked. Why persist working with players who can potentially undermine you?
25 Nov 2010, 08:19 am
@askanaz1(askanaz1) : Dude WTF?? Fence sitter?? You got to be kidding me. I will die for the Boks. I support the team and the coaches. I am one of the only guys who always punt the Boks to win. Where other guys say stuff like England by 20. I will never say such **** in my life. I am one of the most positive guys on here.
25 Nov 2010, 08:26 am
@Transformation(Transformation) : And yet, the Aussies are still losing
25 Nov 2010, 08:26 am
@askanaz1(askanaz1) : And dude I am coloured.
25 Nov 2010, 08:29 am
@iori Yagami(iori Yagami) :
What colour?
25 Nov 2010, 08:31 am
@Slartibartfast(Slartibartfast) : Hehehehe
25 Nov 2010, 08:42 am
@Slartibartfast(Slartibartfast) : Multicoloured!
25 Nov 2010, 08:45 am
@iori Yagami(iori Yagami) :
You like a mood ring?
25 Nov 2010, 08:50 am
@Transformation(Transformation) : Stranger things have happened, and aye, Dingo did have a clean out.
I’m just not seeing during these dark hours any flicker of support for a coach under the pump. Usually by this stage there are reports from players saying how much they believe in the direction or methods of ‘Coach blah.’ Happened to Marty Johnson and Dingo. Sometimes the players opinion has shortened or lengthened the career of a coach but in this case – zip, nothing.
25 Nov 2010, 08:51 am
@Slartibartfast(Slartibartfast) : I am like a LED T.V 2 million colours *****!! LOL
25 Nov 2010, 14:59 pm
The current coaching set up is not up to the task. No coach in the current era had has the quality ofplayers available as these guys have. The SA provinces are stronger than they have been for years. The sharks, bulls and stormers have become a lot more professional and we are seeing the results. Unfortunately the Boks are way behind. I disagree with the assertion that the boks should lower the importance of this game and play fringe players. It is a test match and we should be aiming to win it. I can’t believe that with all the games our Players play and the training programs they engage that the coaches need to experiment in a test like this. Wasn’t that the idea of the Italy tests?
Good coaches know what they want and know who is capable of what. Look at Mitchell at the lions. Came in took a look around and took control. Our coaches are all over the place.
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