Twickers result is irrelevant
24 Nov 2010
JON CARDINELLI writes that backing experimental selections at Twickenham would have been better than sending the first-stringers out to avenge wounded pride.
The Boks broke a 10-year losing streak in Dublin, a victory that was important in the World Cup context. They picked up more psychological points in Cardiff the very next week. It wasn’t pretty, but the Bok had struck two big blows before a defining 2011 season.
Then Scotland brought them to earth. Many people lamented the end of a Grand Slam opportunity when in the greater scheme of things, the Grand Slam should never have been as important as building towards the World Cup.
Last Saturday’s game was a waste with Peter de Villiers neglecting to back more fringe players in a starting capacity. Nothing was learned in terms of how the second-stringers could handle the starting responsibilities. Those lessons would have been worth the risk of defeat.
But De Villiers blew that opportunity, and failed in his own personal ambition to stay on course for a career-saving Grand Slam. He’s blown another opportunity ahead of this Saturday, picking his strongest side yet again, as a win against England could be what keeps him in the job.
If the Boks beat England, they will head back to South Africa with a scorecard that reads three Test wins from four. It may be considered a pass in the results department, but when it comes to developing new and exciting talent before a World Cup year, the head coach and the selectors have failed.
Lwazi Mvovo has been rushed into the Bok starting side due to Bryan Habana’s tour-ending injury, and wouldn’t be starting if Habana was fit. Pat Lambie has been limited to three second-half cameos on this tour, while Francois Hougaard has also been used erratically.
Willem Alberts has produced two powerful bench performances that suggest he may be South Africa’s new super-sub in 2011, but he deserved a start in the Scotland fixture. Lions flyhalf Elton Jantjies has done nothing but carry tackle bags, and would have been better served conditioning for an important Super Rugby tournament.
That the Boks would embark on a Grand Slam tour a year before the World Cup is a bungle at administrative level. No team should be expected to send full-strength squads to the north after a full year of rugby, especially just 11 months before the all-important tournament. This should be a time for testing new combinations and blooding new players.
Somehow this tour has become more about results and preserving De Villiers’s job rather than developing and strengthening new combinations. De Villiers missed another chance to try something different when he named his match 22 on Tuesday. He listed conditions as an explanation, but why bring the other players to the northern hemisphere if you’re not going to trust them to deal with the weather? Sending them on in difficult conditions midway through the second half doesn’t help their development or the synergy of the team, and it’s this kind of mismanagement and lack of common sense that’s characterised a disappointing tour.
Lambie should have been entrusted with a starting opportunity from the outset. If the Boks were really adamant about picking up the psychological points against World Cup opponents Ireland and Wales, then you could understand the decision to stick with Morne Steyn at No 10 as well as several other safe selections. But there was no sense in sending the seniors out against Scotland.
There’s even less reason to send them out against England. The Poms are hitting some form, and there’s a good chance a full-strength Bok side could come short yet again. A loss at Twickenham for the Boks’ first-choice team would render the tour a failure, as nothing new would have been learned, and two big defeats would have been suffered. But if De Villiers backed more youngsters in this final fixture and they performed (or alternatively, fared poorly) then he would know what he had in those players.
If there’s an argument that it’s unfair to ask players like Lambie and Jantjies to play now, it calls into question why De Villiers selected them to tour in the first place. Most of the fringe players will get a chance against the Barbarians on 4 December, but this fixture cannot be used to gauge a player’s aptitude for Test rugby.
449 Comments
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24 Nov 2010, 10:59 am
Injuries during the 2006 TNs
Schalk, Bakkies, Van Niekerk, Habana, Jean, Fourie, Butch, Pretorius to name but a few. And with no real depth in place to replace them. back then Schalk was still the be all and end all of the Boks. And in sspite of all this, Jake sat before the media and took personal responsibility. No bitching at the S14 sides, no taking swipes at players or assistants, no bitching about refs, no reference to injuries, no talk of conspiracies, but took personal responsibilities. duh Failures sat in front of the journos and said we were playing great rugby in the TNs and he has no idea why we kept losing, then said that maybe it was down to a conspiracy where NZ HAD to win. He sees no fault in himself.
Also, took a full strength, settled team to the first nil at home in 119 years of Bok rugby. Let me say that again ONE HUNDRED AND NINETEEN YEARS!!!
24 Nov 2010, 11:03 am
@Alucard(Alucard) : #95 Don’t discount the importance of a win. At some point you running the risk of being over-coached and you being stuck it trying to execute game strategy and forget that the game could be as simple as you see it. So players should go out and do what they do best and what they know.
24 Nov 2010, 11:03 am
@Transformation(Transformation) : @96
That is the point I was making.
White was in everyone sights during the years leading into RWC07, and there was no real expectation of the team coming away with the trophy.
Anyone who suggests the build up by White is a blueprint for winning is deluding themselves.
24 Nov 2010, 11:05 am
What Krusty and his clowns dont yet understand is that rugby is more than physical running and jumping and all the other ****. It is mental and emotional as well. Once they have all three of those fine tuned then you have a balance.
The Kiwi’s “chocking” has got nothing to do with their physicality, it is a mental aspect, one I am sure they have been working on, we shall see the fruits of that at the RWC.
24 Nov 2010, 11:07 am
I think we are all taking this up the wrong way. Pdivvy, Crusty and Curly has done an awesome job over the past 3 years, How many new players have the blooded through system? Remember you first have to break them down before you can build them up again… In my eyes they Springboks are the perfect building platform for our Super rugby franchises
24 Nov 2010, 11:07 am
@pompies2(pompies2) :
Agreed, like in 2008 when we totally pumped England. Hopefully we’ll see another performance like that? Surely it can’t get any worse, but I’ll hold my tongue until after the result.
24 Nov 2010, 11:08 am
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon) : Thats what I thought. My heart skipped a beat when he ran on
24 Nov 2010, 11:09 am
@BigScrum(BigScrum) :
I agree.
You set out to win the game you are next playing.
24 Nov 2010, 11:10 am
@Bok fan(Bok fan) :Wooden Spoon. It almost stopped when we kept box kicking though
24 Nov 2010, 11:11 am
@Alucard(Alucard) : #106. Don’t hold your tongue, because then you can’t hold your thumbs. Or can you do both simutaneously?
24 Nov 2010, 11:18 am
@Brads(Brads) : two days after being pumped 49-0 jake DIDN’T blame the S14 franchises, he took responsibility
White wants more control
Jake White’s latest gripe is with the lack of
control he has over Vodacom Super 14
franchises in this country, and how it
effects the Springboks.
The fact that he has no say of who plays
where in terms of both position and
franchise is, as he says, to the detriment of
the national game.
“Things can’t work if the Springbok flyhalf
plays fullback for his franchise, the
openside flank plays on the blindside, the
inside centre at outside centre and the
props are played out of position too, ” White
told the media in Wellington.
White used the systems in place in New
Zealand as a example to illustrate his point.
The Kiwis have had a stronghold on Super
Rugby since it ’s inception in 1996, and have
also dominated the international game for
over a decade.
“So we must be crazy not to see the
benefits in their system, from which they
are getting a lot more return than us,” said
White.
“New Zealand contract all their top players.
So when players like Mils Muiliaina and
Byron Kelleher are told to move to another
franchise, they become better players and
New Zealand get more competitive teams.
“Every decision is based on the good of the
All Blacks team.”
White may have raised an inherently valid
point. But what do these statements
suggest for the Boks chances at the World
Cup next year? Even if he is given the
power to control the placement and
positioning of players next year, that only
leaves a few months to mould a side at the
conclusion of the Sanzar tournament.
More pertinently, what do these statements
suggest for the Tri-Nations this year?
“Against New Zealand and Australia, when
we get it wrong it will really go wrong
unless we get the systems in place.
“I don’t want to make it sound like all doom
and gloom, but the Super 14 is the basis on
which I pick from and the five franchises
have not performed well.”
Say what he wants, it doesn’t get much
gloomier than that. The Bok coach has just
given us the reason for failing, not just
against Australia, but in the Tri-Nations
before the Boks have even played their
second match.
This entry was posted on Monday, July
17th, 2006
no BLAME LMAO
24 Nov 2010, 11:19 am
Forget who the coaches were, just ask the question what has our win% percentage been against the top 5 nations in rugby the last 5 years? How many times have we beaten the AB’s;Wallabies;France;England and lets say Ireland in the last 5=10 years and how many times have we lost, irrespective of who the coach was. This ought to tell you if,first of all the other nations have overtaken us in developing players (physically as well as skillfully) during the professional era, overaken us in playing structure and culture and lastly whether or not we have the depth we think we have at International level.
Someone please show me I am wrong in my assumptions that the above is true.
24 Nov 2010, 11:21 am
@phil72(phil72) :
Are you kidding? Selections since 2008:
Failed: Watson, Mujati, Bobo, Britz, Odwa, Conradie, Odwa, Jantjes, Louw, Grant, Nokwe, Januarie, Bekker, Kirchner, Chiliboy, Maku, Rubenheimer, Newman, Johnson, Rose, Hargreaves, Adams.
Successful: Beast, Morne, Brussow.
Of the three Morne was only in the squad out of pressure from the public. de Villiers stated during the team unvailing that he was lucky, and has to date refused to credit him for his contribution in 2009, every time he was asked, he went off about Pienaar. And Brussow was forced upon him, as he had few options, and even then de Villiers repeatedly tried to replace him with Roussouw.
Players out of Position: Pienaar (10, 15), Frans (10, 13, 15), Jean (wing), Smit (3), Roussouw (6), Kankowski (6), Kirchner (13), Olivier (wing), Adi (wing), Butch (12), Morne (15), Spies (7), Potgieter (6), BJ (1), Adi (12), de Jongh (12).
We’re sure following in NZ’s foot steps, breaking our team down is definitely the way to go. de Villiers inherited a good, settled team, all he had to do was blend in new blood. But he couldnt even do that. Utter fail! We are not even close to being on the right path.
24 Nov 2010, 11:24 am
I see that PDV says there is nothing wrong with the Bokke game plan its the execution that sucks. Well that means we can look forward to more rugby without the ball.
24 Nov 2010, 11:24 am
Wat ek dink v JWhite is onbelangrik.
Wat belangrik is dat hy het sy kant gebring.
Respek = WC2007.
As Snorre dit ook doen in WC11 sal ek ook so sê!
24 Nov 2010, 11:26 am
113. Alucard(Alucard)
Now imagine the players coming back from the international circus tour and going back to their respective provinces with all the systems in place, professional coaches etc. They must think it is heaven, no wonder we have been performing so well in SUPER RUGBY over the past few years…
24 Nov 2010, 11:27 am
I honestly wish you guys would get over your rugby stats and percentages , great it might be awesome to reflect back on, but what does it really help? Does it not highlight the failures of the past, more than the success’s?
It is the same as practising for years to be able to hit a golf ball as far as possible, great you can hit the ball far and hard, pity you can putt for **** when it counts… It is all about balance.
24 Nov 2010, 11:28 am
@bananaboy(bananaboy) :
We were overtaken in terms of coaching from 99. From then on rugby has developed immensely, and it started with Jake in the recovery process, but under him our Super rugby was pathetic and it was only in 2007 when foreign coaches got involved that they had improved nearly instantly. Our rugby, domestically is at a better state than it ever was, and our skill levels are outstanding. But we went the other way with the Boks, going backwards with de Villiers, so it’s not showing at test level. Coaching has always been the biggest weakness in SA rugby, it’s better now than it was a few years ago, but it’s still far from great.
24 Nov 2010, 11:28 am
@Alucard(Alucard) :
I thought you had a comprehensive database on all matters Springboks?
Did you forget how Jake tried to blackmail SA Rugby in 2006 by making himself available for the England coaching job? How he blamed fans, the media and the rugby administrators of this country of being cowards by not backing him when things were tough?
Did you forget how he threatened Dale Granger on the 2006 Tri-Nations tour telling him that Nigel McGurk was one of his mates (a KES old-boy) and that he received sms’ from him telling him (Jake) that he will sort them (media out) – for the people out there, McGurk was one of the self-confessed hitmen that killed Brett Kebble.
Did you forget how he referred to Solly Tyibilika as a transformation player when he was selected for the NZ test after the Brisbane (49-0) hammering?
Should I go on?
24 Nov 2010, 11:33 am
@Alucard(Alucard) : Thats my concern I don’t see our players doing the basics at International level i.e taking the ball at pace; offloading in the tackle; running supporting lines even passing the ball accurately. If we cannot do these things properly how are we going to get players to think of strategy and game plans or perhaps its too much focus on the latter thats affecting the basics. I honestly do not know.
24 Nov 2010, 11:33 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt) :
Actually Jake made himself available in 2007 after he was ousted. So what’s your problem? and wasnt solly a quota? I think he definitely was. Where has Solly been the last four five years? LMAO. As for the threat, where’s the proof?
Please do go on, there’s nothing but hot hair this far in your post.
24 Nov 2010, 11:35 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt) : klink soos n sepie!
24 Nov 2010, 11:35 am
@bananaboy(bananaboy) :
It’s the result of confusion. They are struggling to do anything as a unit. Hesitancy in knowing who is where and doing what results in errors, particularly when you are facing the two best teams in the world!
24 Nov 2010, 11:35 am
117. Drlector(Drlector)
I have given this a lot of thought… Now how can we go about transforming golf in South Africa… Any thoughts on that?
24 Nov 2010, 11:36 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt) : you are mistaken, jake never blamed referees, he took responsibility
Honiss hammers White
New Zealand referee Paul Honiss was in no
rush to excuse Jake White ’s outburst after
the Boks lost 49-0 to Australia.
White blamed Honiss’s refereeing and said
the referee blew South Africa out of the
game.
Honiss, awarded 13 penalties to Australia
and six to South Africa, said the Boks have
got off lightly.
Responding to White’s criticism, he said:
“Who am I, the scapegoat for this week?
Obviously to Jake White. If they’re going to
point the finger at me then they’re
obviously not focusing on the right things
for next week.”
Honiss said the the Boks’ rush defence was
to blame for the penalties.
“That rush defence of theirs wasn’t
working,” he said.
“I had an IRB (referees)
selector (assessing the game) … he said you
had five penalties for that (off-side) in the
first half, you could have doubled it. He said
you couldn ’t back down because if you backed down they would have walked all
over you. ”
This entry was posted on Sunday, July 16th,
2006
24 Nov 2010, 11:38 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt) : Yes, and he also left his wife for another good looking lassie. Oh, and he also arrived pissed at a function where he was supposed to be MC. So, lets take him to the town square and take off his head because he also knew a guy who knew a guy who killed Brett Kebble…………..
24 Nov 2010, 11:40 am
Yet again kuckle trail Transformation cannot read. Jake took responsibility for the entire TNs campaign dunder-nut. Obvuously you were in the same class as Malema when you both flunked the 34% pass requirement at school. But at least you can cut and paste, LOL.
24 Nov 2010, 11:41 am
@Alucard(Alucard) :
No he made himself available in 2006 already… And it backfired badly.
Quote:
The RFU (England’s rugby administration) has shortlisted an impressive number of candidates for their elite ‘Director of Rugby’ position. One of them is Jake White. The Poms favour Sir Clive Whingeward, but word round the campfire is the Woodie digs Jake and is looking to involve him in England rugby.After the RFU confirmed they were talking to Jake White, he said :
“Yes, it’s fair to say that I’m at the crossroads and might not be Springbok coach for much longer.”
This would see White be in direct opposition to the team he coaches now at the 2007 World Cup. And we’re in the same group as England again.
“There are people in South African rugby who pledge their support, but sometimes you think it is just lip service. If we had won on Saturday they would all have come to the dressing room, stood in a circle and maybe put out a press release saying we’re backing the coach until the World Cup.
“Instead, we lost, and you look around and realise there are some who are still with you, and others who have fled to the hills.”
Dale Granger situation:
On the flight from Wellington to Sydney, after South Africa had lost the second test to New Zealand, I approached White, sitting next to captain John Smit, to discuss the way things were going, after he had spat the dummy in public a few days earlier, having just escaped the guillotine.
“Have you heard of Nigel McGurk?” said White. I said no.
“Well why don’t you check him out?” said White. “He is a KES [King Edward School, Joburg] old boy.”
“What are you saying?” I asked.
“I get SMSes all the time [from McGurk] offering to sort you okes [the media] out,” he replied.
“Jake”, I said, “Don’t threaten me.” At that point Smit chipped in: “Hey guys. Just calm down.”
So much for hot air hey?
See unlike you I am actually interested in fact, and not inflated opinion about oneself.
No point in carrying on, your posts is all the proof anyone needs – please do carry on covering yourself in glory.
Ciao
24 Nov 2010, 11:42 am
@Staal(Staal) :
Staal, I like White moer baie actually.
Punt wat ek maak is actually doners eenvoudig.
Hoe meer dinge verander in SA rugby, hoe meer bly dit dieselfde…
24 Nov 2010, 11:43 am
that World Cup 2007 is a farce its clouded everyone’s vision to reality
White had a less than mediocre record outside the Wc and against top 5 nations
White defeated New Zealand 3 times from 10 starts 30% success
He lost 49-0 to Australia, only 2 WC players not in that squad that lost in Brisbane being Botha and Burger, every last other front line player including Os Smit Matfield Smith Van Niekerk Januarie FdP De Villiers Fourie played that game and got trounced 49-0
White lost 3 from 4 vs France, never beat Ireland away, beat England only once away, never beat New Zealand away.
Whites real win % against top 5 nations NZ Aussie France Ireland England was around 44% that’s how he should be measured not by striking it lucky at a Wc where nobody above rank 6 bothered pitching up.
If these fools like Draconian Dracula want to keep on bullsh’ting themselves that White was the real deal while he couldn’t achieve f’all till he got a proper coach like Eddy Jones to take the coaching reigns, then only idiot he’s fooling is himself. De Villiers record against top 5 rank teams still way above that of White and then some.
24 Nov 2010, 11:44 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt) :
Beautiful
24 Nov 2010, 11:45 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt) :
all Jake said is that he might not be Bok coach for much longer, and the RFU approached Jake.
as for the other point, where’s your proof? I don’t consider hear-say or he said/she said nonsense to be proof.
Hot air, again.
24 Nov 2010, 11:45 am
Dr Phil
Non white golf balls?
24 Nov 2010, 11:45 am
@Alucard(Alucard) : LMAO when did i pass matric? LMAO where did Jake take responsibility, i have shown you two pieces from 2006 where Jake BLAMES others for his losses… bring the proof LMAO
24 Nov 2010, 11:47 am
@Alucard(Alucard) : Yeah but when last did you see us dominate the opposition through clever rugby and totally annihilate them like the AB’s seem to be doing to all and sundry. (incl SA when you look at the NZ 3N’s tests). The first test against the B&I Lions (i.e.in the first 60 ) was the best performance I’ve seen in a long time by the Boks and comparative to what the AB’s show on a regular basis.
24 Nov 2010, 11:47 am
@gunther(gunther) :
24 Nov 2010, 11:47 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt) :
Granger was a twat, still is but then again, so was JC at times.
24 Nov 2010, 11:48 am
Pisser
I would have also threatened Grave Danger with a hitman.
The guy is full of it.
I believe he has moved to Oz.
He will fit right in.
24 Nov 2010, 11:50 am
@Alucard(Alucard) : 132 “RFU approached Jake”??? Come on… Snake was pimping his services to all and sundry…
24 Nov 2010, 11:51 am
@Alucard(Alucard) :
Ever heard about the saying that goes something like; ‘Better to remain silent and being thought a fool than speak out and confirm it?’
There is no need for me to carry on with anything on this thread anymore, your posts are doing all the work themselves.
I will just sit back and enjoy.
24 Nov 2010, 11:53 am
@gunther(gunther) :
He is in NZ and still a prick of note, you right, he will fit right in there, good riddens.
24 Nov 2010, 11:54 am
@gunther(gunther) : Irrespective of what Granger was like that was no way for a Bok coach to react , it smacks of a bully who can only get his way by threatening folks.
24 Nov 2010, 11:54 am
@askanaz1(askanaz1) :
Of course the Boks were only successful because of Eddie Jones, look how they played like australia under Jones’s obvious leadership! LMAO
Jake thumped Eddie Jones 3 tests in 2006 which got Jones fired. Remember that?
What you also faile to mention is that Jake had to overturn alot of wrongs. In beating Nz for the first time since 99, in bearing ENG for the first time since 2000, in beating Australia away for the first time since 98, beating France for the first time since 2000, and many other things like building a two year unbeaten home record Jake BUILT a new culture for the Boks. Unlike you imbeciles I actually have a balanced view of Jake. I stated that he made mistakes, he wasnt perfect, but he did far more good than bad. He improved the fitness and discipline of the Boks from an utter rabble. Restored consistency and respect for the jersey rather than the any tom **** and harry comes in like revolving doors. What he left beind was a perfectly functioning team, one that quota has destroyed. You cannot appreciate what Jake achieved because you are a one-eyed gimp. and the likes of Transformation cannot accept him because the quota that boasted that he would be the best coach yet has failed spectacularly, thus taking swipes at Jake to make de Villies look better. How very sad. But all this keeps resurfacing and round and round it goes. If you dont like Jake, and if you dont want to appreciate the last good era of Bok rugby, then that’s your choice. We’ve made our opinions known and I’d rather concentrate on duh Failures tenure as that’s the present. This is the last time I’m going to be dragged back into another pointless argument about Jake. It’s getting ridiculous now.
24 Nov 2010, 11:54 am
@bananaboy(bananaboy) : 135… But that 1st Test was nearly farked up by the PdV/Tricky Dicky shoot-themselves-in-foot substitutions… You would think they would have learned from that… They still haven’t!
Having said that, it was a great match!
24 Nov 2010, 11:55 am
133. gunther(gunther)
Good idea!
Now if only SA rugby administrators had this much insight….
24 Nov 2010, 11:56 am
Easy, golf clubs in all the townships for starters. NOT golf courses but golf clubs, each club then registers at a local golf course. There they identify themselves as previusoly disadvantaged, and should thus be entitled to some form of discount or goverment/sports subsidy.
Lets say instead of paying R100 as example for playing 18 holes they only pay R50 and the goverment/sports clowns subsidise the other amount. That way everyone pays the same amount of money to enjoy the same facilities. If people arrive in there thousands and they pay less, lets say they only pay the R50, less money will be available for the maintanance and upkeep on the venue facilities.
This is as much a goverment and sports initiative as it is a public one. Dont forget the gold courses also have people to pay and bills to be paid, so they cant just do it for free. They can have golf clinics at the golf courses presented and coached by both black and white coaches, this will ensure than the requirements to the local languages are also met and translated, rather than lost in translation. Give the kids a chance if they are compitent enough in English they will have a better repore(sic) with the white coach maybe.
Give them the chance, make gold clubs the responsibility of the area that they live in, then create the infrustructure for them, not the other way around. Supply and demand. no demand in Polokwane for example, divert hose funds and efforts to Soweto then.
24 Nov 2010, 11:56 am
White wanted the Engeland job bad he was punting for it big time from 06, if they’d have considered him he would have been gone quick as you can say fiddled sticky wickets, that’s how much of a 2 face patriot that second grade Charlatan is. Since the Wc he tried Australia, England, Ireland and others including possibilities at clubs like Sarries and Leicester and got turned down, then he turned his attention to trying to destabilizing Boks and aiming at usurping his old hunting ground back but even his own Wc players of 2007 wanted nothing of it,.
24 Nov 2010, 11:57 am
“twickers result is irrelevant”
what absolute rubbish
24 Nov 2010, 11:59 am
@bananaboy(bananaboy) :
Oh please, so you have never told someone to take his mouth and lick his butt hole. Listen, Granger was a real prick; he had it in for Jake since day one just to create media drama. I would have done the same, Jake was not perfect but Granger was born a wan@er.
24 Nov 2010, 12:00 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game) :
Or the fact that they ripped through adi and that put our defence under tremendous pressure, but de Villiers refused to sub the useless Adi and instead subbed Jean for Fourie, and moved at to 12 where his useless defence could be even more exposed! LOL. We went 5 tests in 2009 without making a single line break. The Boks were utterly impotent but for the final quater of the 2nd Lions test.
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