Joe big in London
12 Dec 2010
MARK KEOHANE writes that Joe van Niekerk produced a man of the match performance to down London Irish in the European Cup.
Former Bok loose-forward Van Niekerk, captain of Toulon, showed exceptional pace to break the London Irish defence early in the first half and then was influential in setting up Toulon’s first and only try of the match.
Toulon won 19-13 with Jonny Wilkinson kicking five from five for 14 points, but it was Van Niekerk who towered above the rest in a match that started well but never sustained the first quarter intensity.
Once again there was inconsistency with referee interpretation at the breakdown, with Northern Hemisphere referees still favouring the defender at the breakdown. On several occasions the attacking player was not given that split second to place the ball.
Van Niekerk, who played for the Boks in the 34-31 victory against Wales in June this year, has consistently been Toulon’s best loose-forward over the last two seasons, and he looked every bit a 51-Test veteran in leading from the front against London Irish.
Van Niekerk has reinvented his game in France and despite only playing the one Test for South Africa since moving to Toulon three seasons ago he would not be out of place in any Bok set-up.
Away wins are rare in the European Cup Pool stages and Van Niekerk’s inspirational display has given Toulon hope of making it to the quarter-finals of Europe’s most glamorous club competition.
The performance was also a reminder of the quality of South African loose-forward playing outside South Africa. Toulouse’s Shaun Sowerby has been a similar influence in the Top 14 and European club competition, and had he not been capped for 10 minutes against Samoa in 2002 he would no doubt have played for France over the last three years.
BJ Botha and Ruan Pienaar produced strong displays in Ulster’s win against Bath, who have suffered without injured South African duo Butch James and Luke Watson.
78 Comments
12 Dec 2010, 20:38 pm
No Joke Dragon. Saw the match. Well played fella!
12 Dec 2010, 22:44 pm
Joe was good.
Breakdown reffing was k a k. In from the side off your feet etc.
Toulon by far the better team on the day.
12 Dec 2010, 23:17 pm
Joe van Niekerk was really impressive! He showed more skills than our entire pack of forwards combined… and the backs for that matter. He will definitely add something to the Bok WC squad. So too Johnny Wilkonson for England.
13 Dec 2010, 07:29 am
Kankowski always playing behind a Bok B pack has cooked his goose. Joe has the World Cup experience and leadership qualities to make him valuable in a World Cup squad. Good rugby brain! Is not just going to try run over people…
13 Dec 2010, 07:42 am
keo and his love affair with big joe is still blazin
13 Dec 2010, 08:02 am
I think he is looking for Brownie points because Joe doesn’t talk to him anymore.
Joe is looking lean, maybe that’s why he seems a bit quicker lately
13 Dec 2010, 08:39 am
Big Joe had a great game. He can captain the dirt trackers team at the World Cup similar to what Bob did in 2007.
13 Dec 2010, 08:44 am
Keo what happened to that thread Saffa’s abroad. That use to be an interesting piece. I think you guys are too obessesed with attacking PDV that the rest of this site has gone to the pigs.
13 Dec 2010, 09:01 am
@iori Yagami : skinstad’s role at the world cup was pointless, he wasn’t even a starter at the sharks at the time, he was just jake’s buddy and was in it for the medal.
13 Dec 2010, 09:02 am
Keo’s golden boys:
Big Joe Van Niekerk
Butch James
Percy Montgomery
and now it seems,
Luke Watson as well.
Supporting acts: Shaun Sowerby – limited only by his talent, not Keo’s enthusiasm.
Of those, Big Joe and Butch will be pushed for world cup places by this site on a non-stop basis.
Incidentally, for those who think Luke came to the Kings out of the goodness of his heart, I bet you can’t guess what he’s gonna be earning in lowly PE. All above board, of course. I mean, it’s not as if there can be any conflict of interest in his appointment process, or what…
13 Dec 2010, 09:07 am
Tacitus the whistleblower
13 Dec 2010, 09:22 am
Big Joe still has the pace and the handling ability to match – SA would do well to bring him back for the WC – miles ahead of Spies or Kanko – No 8 is not purely on how much you can benchpress
13 Dec 2010, 09:23 am
What hasn’t really been mentioned is Sireli Bobo’s try. From a standing start to score a brilliant try in the corner. Now this guy would be unbeatable in 7′s. Turned the game on it’s head.
13 Dec 2010, 09:28 am
@Tacitus : Come on…..
Amuse me…
13 Dec 2010, 09:28 am
well done to big Joe
unfortunately with the depth of loosies in this country he would be found wayyy wanting
i couldnt believe how off the pace he was in the Wales game
then you have some1 like Alberts, 3 tests, 3 tries
who said anything about extended runs??
take your opportunity when it comes and you wont need Keo journalists to punt how good you are!
13 Dec 2010, 09:29 am
@Eish : Sireli Bobo yes……good point yes…..Sireli Bobo well done Sireli Bobo…..
13 Dec 2010, 09:32 am
@Transformation : it is so amazing how staunchly he suipports Big Joe
i fell into the hype until i saw him in the Wales game
same like Frans Steyn
you could see that they were off the pace and it must be the french league doing
who cares if they star for a french team
cant they even star in the currie cup?
13 Dec 2010, 09:34 am
@Tacitus : wohoooo
go Tac
u should join Wikileaks my friend
13 Dec 2010, 09:48 am
but let’s be honest. it seems very easy to shine in the northern hemisphere. European Cup is the equivalent of currie cup. congrats to Joe for winning a currie cup man of the match
13 Dec 2010, 09:56 am
It is complete nonsense that Joe or any of the northern hemisphere-based players were off the pace in the 34-31 win against Wales in June. Only six of the 22 match squad were northern hemisphere based and Steyn kicked a 50 metre penalty that proved decisive. If they were so off the pace, then what of the 16 Super rugby stars who made up the balance of the team.
Alberts had an impact in NH conditions on latest tour, but he is not in Joe van Niekerk’s class as a rugby player and an athlete.
Alberts, when given a start against a makeshift Baabaas pack, did not look that flash over 80 minutes. PDivvy has picked Kankowski without fail, but never plays him. JvN offers more to a WC squad, both in experience, and versatility in that he can play 6,7 and 8.
13 Dec 2010, 09:58 am
@kingrichard : apparently not that easy for SA’s best to shine at Murrayfield against the worst of the home unions … Oh I forgot SA’s define their season on beating England, who have lost their last 13 matches to SA and NZ.
And the standard up north is so poor that we applaud the brilliance of character in 2 and 4 point wins against Ireland and Wales.
13 Dec 2010, 09:58 am
@keo : are you disputing neels liebel’s statements that indeed they were off the pace?
13 Dec 2010, 10:02 am
@keo : Joe certainly offers more than Konko, who is one of those guys who has never stepped up at international level. Whether he’s playing better than Alberts at the moment,…well I’m on the Alberts train.
13 Dec 2010, 10:04 am
@keo : Don’t really think we need more options on loose forwards at the moment. We’ve got loads of those in SA. Can’t see Joe being picked ahead of schalk, jean, pierre, danie, heinrich, or willem (as a super sub)
13 Dec 2010, 10:06 am
@keo :
Come on Keo , Joe at 6 was terrible against the Frogs here in the mothercity in 2006.
Duane Vermeulen , Alberts, Spies, I would reward the local players.
Joe had a lot of chances, perhaps im not his biggest fan as he was terrible for the Stormers and Wp when he was down here.
13 Dec 2010, 10:11 am
6.Brussouw
7.Smith
8.Burger
Would be my World Cup trio , Danie and Alberts on the bench.
Keegan Daniel,Deysel,Vermeulen to fight it out for the other spots in squad. IMO
13 Dec 2010, 10:13 am
@keo : It just seems that almost all South African players who move up north all become the stars of their respective teams. And most of these players are players who fail to make the springbok squad. Either our selectors are missing something or the quality of rugby is inferior to ours.
13 Dec 2010, 10:45 am
@wp_boytjie : so because he had a terrible test in 2006, you can’t acknowledge he is playing fine rugby in 2010 … incredible logic
13 Dec 2010, 10:46 am
@kingrichard : maybe we discard our players too quickly. And it isn’t just SA players. NZ players are shine. Byron Kelleher, Nick Evan and Carl Hayman would give NZ the most complete look they have ever had. Oh I forgot they are only shining because of the **** standard of rugby in NH
13 Dec 2010, 10:48 am
@keo : What im saying is he didn’t look like a good option at 6 then, can’t see it having changed. He’s not a breakdown option. I’d take him ahead of Kanko to World Cup , but not Alberts,Vermeulen,Spies. If there is a injury he’s expierience could be valauable.
13 Dec 2010, 10:49 am
Keegan Daniel is a more versatile option at loose-forwad. If he has another good Super 15 i’d give him a go.
13 Dec 2010, 10:51 am
@wp_boytjie : i agree tht Big Joe has had his chances and its time for the others to be given those chances
the welsh was VERY disappointing to say the least, amidst ALL the hype from this website
he is not a bad player, but is not doing anything to be moved above the pecking order of the likes of Spies, Alberts,Vermuelen, Kanko, Schalk, Juan, Brussouw
i mean COMMON
13 Dec 2010, 10:54 am
@wp_boytjie : i want tht impressed with Daniels on the few opportunities he had this EOYT
good rugby brain for sure, but didnt do much to deserve going above the pecking order of loosies
i think when it comes to loosies one should always look at combinations rather than who is better than whom
one thing Keo hasnt answered is where would JvN fit in an SA loose trio that would make it better than it is now?
13 Dec 2010, 10:56 am
@keo : “NZ players are shine”
hmmm???
13 Dec 2010, 11:03 am
@Papoose :
Daniel for me could be a good squad player he has covered 6,7,8 well for the Sharks ,he’s is one of the most versatile if not the most versatile loose forwad in the country.
Daniel for me also a better option in second half when game becomes more loose as an impact sub. Just my opinion.
Can’t see Big Joe being a better option at 7 than Danie or Smith or even Deysel. Can’t See Big Joe being better option than Spies Alberts or Vermeulen at 8. Same for 6 with Burger and Brussouw.
Nahhhh sorry can’t say I think we need him.
13 Dec 2010, 11:08 am
@wp_boytjie : i agree
cant see us needing him
he has the experience yes,but off the pace of our current loosies
13 Dec 2010, 11:10 am
Have to say that if Spies, Alberts, Smith or any of the fringe Bok loose forwards would also have their day in the sun if they were playing in Europe. Whilst Joe has had a few good games it doesn’t justify an inclusion in the Bok team. If it were a center or flyhalf dominating in Europe then it would be a different story. That is where we are lacking.
13 Dec 2010, 11:16 am
@Eish : ” If it were a center or flyhalf dominating in Europe then it would be a different story.”
AGREED
13 Dec 2010, 11:18 am
I’m sorry, anyone who watched the Toulon vs London Irish game yesterday would have to agree that Joe van Noekerk showed skills and creative play than any Springbok that played in a green and gold jersey in 2010. Those having dissing Joe at the moment are making their based on their biased opinions formed when Joe last played in SA. He is playing sensational rugby at the moment, better than any SA loose forward the moment. His skill-set is far better than any no 8 playing in SA.
13 Dec 2010, 11:21 am
It’s not just that he is playing good rugby, it is the WAY he is playing and what he does with the ball in hand. He puts players into space, off-loads brilliantly, perfectly placed little chips, turn-overs, kich-chases, etc. He does more in one game than any loose-trio in SA combined.
13 Dec 2010, 11:43 am
@fsjakes : yes, he looks good for Toulon. The problem is that this sort of form doesn’t nescessarily translate into good international form. Same with a guy like Kanko. Good for the Sharks but not for the Boks.
When Joe was picked earlier he looked off the pace.
13 Dec 2010, 12:05 pm
@stormersboy : 100%. How many players shine at provincial or club level and then disappear at international level. Yes, give them the chance to show you what they have got. Joe has been given this chance before and, whilst not a disaster, has not been able to command a permanent spot. He is good but no better than what we have at present.
13 Dec 2010, 12:23 pm
Big Joe will do a great job mentoring and leading the stringers in the WC squad. He has great experience (51 caps). Sure he looked off the pace earlier this year but that was because he was at the end of his season. He has done the business at International level we know what he can do.
13 Dec 2010, 12:26 pm
@fsjakes : Remember how good he was in 2008? I dont know why PDV dropped him for that Perth game against Australia when he played great rugby against the All Blacks two weeks before.
13 Dec 2010, 12:50 pm
Dont forget ol’ Pedrie for Ulster, bloke had more of an impact than his other Saffer counterparts, he was all over the place on attack and deffence.
13 Dec 2010, 13:17 pm
@Eish : Are we lacking at centre??
13 Dec 2010, 13:22 pm
@MacToogie : I heard he scored a great try? I missed it? I was it?
13 Dec 2010, 13:45 pm
@Eish : @42, I do not think Joe fall’s into that category of players, he has showed enough performances in the past to make him an international, in fact the game that Ricky January won down under, I reckon Joe was the real MoM.
13 Dec 2010, 13:58 pm
@iori Yagami : We were 2 weeks ago. If we had to go to the wc with the centers we had on tour we will be in big trouble. Depends on injury recovery I suppose. If we can get JF and JDJ fit and ready and combine them with JDV then we are kind of ok. Would like a couple more genuine class centers. Steyn, in present form, is not going break any lines or score from 50 meters out.
13 Dec 2010, 14:34 pm
@Eish : Yes we were lacking 2 weeks ago but with all our guys back from injury we will have this to work on JDV, JF, Olivier, JdJ, Adi, F.Steyn. Not sure who all is going to the World Cup but I would select JDV & JF and Olivier & JdJ with Frans Steyn at 15 and being able to cover 12 & 13.
13 Dec 2010, 14:41 pm
@iori Yagami : yes I think that will be the best. The key is whether you pick someone like Butch as backup 10 or Ruan ot Pat. Those types of decisions will I think be a bit harder…
13 Dec 2010, 14:46 pm
No matter how good Joe vN is outside the Bok setup, its how he plays within this Bok setup under the “magnificent” coaching trio of Dippy, Tricky and Goldie… I doubt this will amount to much… all of Big Joe’s obvious skills, speed and positional awareness will come to nothing when playing for the current Boks under the current setup…
I suspect most players in the World will regress a few steps after a couple of months with the 3 Bok fools…
Our current Boks have definitely done a reverse evolution after the past 5 weeks. Hopefully their respective S15 franchises get them back up to speed before the S15…
So, Big Joe performs outside the current Bok setup. Many other players do too, and this has nothing to do with the “rigours of International Rugby”…
Read my lips: “Its not the players, stoopid!”
13 Dec 2010, 14:49 pm
@iori Yagami : I wouldn’t include Olivier. JF is just too injury prone. JDV is not the same player he was 4 years ago. JDJ is the future at 13 with a playmaker with some bulk at 12. No one at the moment. Will thus go with JDV. Here’s hoping that someone come through in time. Who knows, at the beginning of 2010 Habana was no 1 and nobody had heard of Mvovo.
12. JDV
13. JDJ
Bench
JF and Steyn. One more needed.
13 Dec 2010, 15:00 pm
@Heavens Game : joe van niekerk was a big part of pdv’s team in 2008 starting both tests against the all blacks in wellington & dunedin that year and he chose to chase money in France…made his bed!
13 Dec 2010, 15:02 pm
@Transformation : 54. He got worse under Dippy and then decided to “chase money” and become a better player in France… Yes, he certainly made himself a good bed…
13 Dec 2010, 15:12 pm
@Heavens Game : how did he get worse in 2008? big joe was playing at the Lions under Loffie domkop…
13 Dec 2010, 15:15 pm
@stormersboy : I think Pienaar will provide cover for M.Steyn. If we are to pick 18 forwards we only have place for 12 backs. Consider this team.
1. Gurthro, Beast
2. Smit, Bismarck, Chiliboy
3. Jannie, CJ, BJ
4. Bakkies, Danie
5. Matfield, Bekker
6. Burger, Brussouw
7. Smith, Alberts
8. Spies, Kanko
9. FdP, Pienaar, Ricky
10. M.Steyn
11. Habana
12. JDV, WO
13. JF, JdJ
14. JPP
15. F.Steyn, Aplon
13 Dec 2010, 15:17 pm
@Eish : In my humble opinion there is no-one else.
13 Dec 2010, 15:19 pm
@iori Yagami : That’s probably going to be very close to who gets selected, injuries allowing. I wouldn’t pick Kanko but we know PDV will, Most wouldn’t pick Ricky (Hougaard rather) but we know PDV might well.
13 Dec 2010, 15:19 pm
@Transformation : 56. By playing for the Boks, Dumfarkwit. And especially under Dippy… basically.
13 Dec 2010, 15:20 pm
@Heavens Game : He didnt become worse, he was one of the best boks during Div’s early tenure.
13 Dec 2010, 15:23 pm
@iori Yagami : 61 don’t bother, he is like a dog in heat, no amount of logic or fact will convince him…
13 Dec 2010, 15:24 pm
@iori Yagami : 61. Yes he was, at the beginning… until Dippy finally had his wicked way with him…
Its inevitable… basically
13 Dec 2010, 15:26 pm
@stormersboy : Exactly thats why I put them in. But i nogal wont pick Hougaard as a scrumhalf. I dont think he is ready to be an international scrumhalf. He needs a full season or 2 playing no.9 for his province.
13 Dec 2010, 15:28 pm
@Transformation : 62. “Dog on heat”? Like Transie running after Momma Rossi or vice versa…
13 Dec 2010, 15:30 pm
@Transformation : Thanks for the advice.
13 Dec 2010, 15:30 pm
@iori Yagami : I agree, but I’m hoping he’ll improve some more this year. After FDP and Ruan I just don’t see anyone else…
13 Dec 2010, 15:31 pm
@Heavens Game : 65 there you are, without fail, lose the debate and resort to toilet humour
13 Dec 2010, 15:33 pm
@Transformation : 68. Yes, but this “toilet humour” is rooted in fair amount of truth… Makes it funny
The Keo “romance”. Toilet humour indeed…
13 Dec 2010, 15:37 pm
@Heavens Game : I dont understand why PDV dropped him though.
13 Dec 2010, 15:39 pm
@stormersboy : How much games is he going to start at scrumhalf though?? 4, 5 max? It will be tough. especially if Ricky is first choice for the Stormers.
13 Dec 2010, 15:41 pm
@Heavens Game : “truth” hahaha
13 Dec 2010, 15:42 pm
@iori Yagami : 70. I dont understand why Dippy does a lot of things… basically. I don’t think many people do… Maybe thats why he is still Bok coach – Bullshitbafflesbrains?
13 Dec 2010, 15:43 pm
Got to go. Work calls. Farking big stain needs to be cleaned.
13 Dec 2010, 16:27 pm
Now this boy can play !
17 Dec 2010, 02:26 am
@keo : I watch Van Niekerk a lot, I too thought he could convert his tremendous club form for Toulon into test form for SA but the reality is JVN is most at home in an open running game and like Spies and Kankowski tends to go missing when the going gets tough at test level. A talented player yes, enough to be SA’s starting No.8? not in my opinion, players like Willem Alberts and Duane Vermuelen are better bets.
17 Dec 2010, 02:32 am
@Eish : Butch does well when he plays, winning motm awards all the time. Unfortunately his kicking for goal isn’t good enough to usurp Steyn and Pienaar’s kicking for goal isn’t good enough to cover him.
@fsjakes : Jonny will be doing it for years yet. People don’t realise it because our starting pack isn’t as good as then but he’s still most of the player he was in 2003.
18 Feb 2011, 07:30 am
My Bok squad of 30 to defend the World Cup…..
15. Francois Steyn / Gio Aplon.
14. J.P. Pieterson / Francois Hougaard.
13. Jacque Fourie / Marius Joubert.
12. Jean De Villiers / Patrick Lambie.
11. Bryan Habana / Lwazi Mvovo.
10. Morne Steyn / Butch James.
9. Fourie Du Preez / Ruan Pienaar.
8. Pierre Spies / Ryan Kankowski.
7. Juan Smith / Willem Alberts.
6. Schalk Burger / Jean Deysel.
5. Victor Matfield / Andries Bekker.
4. Bakkies Botha / Danie Rossouw.
3. Jannie Du Plessis / C.J. Van Der Linde.
2. John Smit (c) / Bismark Du Plessis.
1. Gurthro Steenkamp / Beast Mtawarira.
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