Officials slammed for red-card call
8 Jun 2011
Pro Legoete faces suspension from the Sanzar officials panel while referee Craig Joubert has been cautioned for his part in the Pat O’Connor red card incident.
In last week’s match between the Bulls and Waratahs, Legoete advised Joubert that O’Connor had headbutted a Bulls player, and Joubert responded by sending O’Connor off. It was a massive call to make in the context of the match, and it’s a call that could cost the Waratahs a place in the play-offs.
O’Connor has since been exonerated of wrong-doing and Sanzar referees boss Lyndon Bray has admitted Legoete and Joubert got it wrong.
‘We reviewed the game on Monday night and clearly the decision was wrong,’ Bray told The Australian. ‘There are two aspects which are frustrating. The description of the event was not very accurate. The process between the referee and the assistant referee was not good. It never fleshed out the details of the incident.
‘I’ve spoken to Craig Joubert about how he could have handled it better, to get better information on which to base his decision. Craig was very disappointed he ended up with that decision.
‘An experienced referee’s job is to pick up on messages he is getting. When Pro said no to a red card, clearly there was a message in that. It’s difficult in the heat of the moment. Craig believed he was dealing with a headbutt. If they had talked through what happened, maybe they would have come up with a different outcome.’
While Legoete has not been officially dropped, he hasn’t been assigned any matches this weekend or next.
107 Comments
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8 Jun 2011, 09:13 am
@Slumtown(Slumtown)-47: Did you not get it all this morning ??? See you got your big boy pants on today – us kiwis will do our talking on the pitch.
8 Jun 2011, 09:13 am
@poppa69(poppa69)-48:
you miss the point….
it is a national tv show….
not a nothing little rugby blog!
kind of indicates the national psyche……..or not?
8 Jun 2011, 09:15 am
@poppa69(poppa69)-43: I hear Marius Jonker is refereeing the Lions/Sharks game, so advantage Lions because he will now do his best to dispel the belief that he favors the Sharks.
I would have preferred someone else referee this game. Perhaps one of the antipodean referees (even the drunkard would have been better), since I am gatvol of hearing how the Sharks are favored by the South African refs.
8 Jun 2011, 09:22 am
@charo(charo)-52: ok, so a TV show indicates the national psyche now does it? what a laugh, thats a massive generalisation..
like me saying District 9 is a fair indication of the SA public.. ?
eish..
8 Jun 2011, 09:25 am
@Dusky(Dusky)-53: yeah I agree, they should revert back to “neutral” refs… though that still causes problems due to perceived bias too..
NH refs perhaps?
I think its more to do with the laws of the game, if they can simplify them it would go a long way to fixing the debacle we have now..
8 Jun 2011, 09:27 am
So a serious error works in favour of an RSA side. There is of course the serious flaw in the rules where a team has inadequate back up in the front row leading to uncontested scrums to the disadvantage of the dominant side.
Sure, get smart and employ availablle technology and utilise it. So it might hold up play every now and then but there is a better chance of getting it right and thus minimize the endless repetitive weekly squawking.
Anyway who has endured the rough end of the stick more than any other group of players.
As I’ve said before.. It has seemed to be open season on Springbok and closed season on Wallabies and Kiwis.
ONE GETS THE IMPRESSION THAT THEY ARE SCARED OF THE BOK AND IT’S JUST AS WELL BECAUSE WHEN THE BOKS “POLITICAL” MATTERS ARE SORTED (AND IT WILL BE) THE OPPOSITION WILL BE RUNNING FOR COVER!
8 Jun 2011, 09:28 am
Pro has had his Pro status revoked.
This article will be interweb viagra for poops.
Expect a hard time
8 Jun 2011, 09:32 am
@poppa69(poppa69)-55: It’s always going to be a problem, and its not just in rugby. There can never be a 100% neutral referee, because a win or loss for one of the teams playing on the weekend will no doubt benefit the team they support. Especially at the business end of the competition.
The only way is to have a structured performance review process. Apparently in in place, but these guys are like doctors – they will always stand up for one another. Get some old players or something to do the adjudication. To have old referees that were braai buddies is not going to work.
8 Jun 2011, 09:34 am
The problem I have with refs is the fact that they feel they need to be so prominent in the game, they see themselves as stars alongside the players, they are in charge of 30 guys, they have a whistle and they are fitted with sound making them the focal point of the match, I’ve heard Kaplan say he likes to run a game a certain way and if he wasn’t allowed to use his creativity he would quit reffing, now i ask you where is there room for creativity when you have a set of rules (or in the case of rugby guidelines), when the most capped ref in world rugby clearly states there is room for “creativity” it shows a major issue with the actual role the refs see themselves in for those 80 mins, they see themselves as the centre of the game instead of the facilitator who should be there to ensure the game is played fairly first and foremost, if the officials see themselves as a team rather than one guy with a whistle with three guys giving input, games would be more consistent, using the touch judges and TMO as a group effort to make calls will take the ego (for the lack of a better word) of the ref out of the game making him as an individual fade away and the game come back into focus.
8 Jun 2011, 09:35 am
@ufo(ufo)-24: Dude… if that is intimidation then I don’t know.
@Dusky(Dusky)-53: Advantage Lions? Dude…. what are you smoking? Have you seen Jonker when the Lions played the Stormers at Ellispark. Last time I checked the Lions never won a game when Jonker was in charge, CC and S15.
Jonker showed his love for the Sharks against the Cheetahs and I doubt that it was just a one night stand.
8 Jun 2011, 09:39 am
@MacToogie(MacToogie)-59: My first impression when I look at Kaplan, is that he was a little boy that was too little to play rugby. He was probably a bit of a schoolyard nerd that used to hide away from the first team boys to avoid his lunch being taken away.
Now – he has the whistle…..you get the picture ? And it gets worse the older he gets.
I am probably completely inaccurate but I am just giving you what goes through my head when I see him acting his little power trip out on the field.
8 Jun 2011, 09:40 am
@Dusky(Dusky)-58: no argument from me, fully agree with you… hence perhaps NH refs may work, though I think they can be too pedantic and would actually spoil the spectacle somewhat in Super rugby…
like you said, there really isnt any accountability (or doesnt appear to be) with the occassional sacrificial lamb given a token couple of weeks on the sidelines…
Ive said it before, they need some sort of Ref academy, where the laws, fitness, application of laws etc are taught to a uniform standard, and then they are assessed every 6 months or so, having to reach a strict target to become referees… a performance review is a start, but it is reactive rather than proactive…. until that changes we’ll always have this problem..
8 Jun 2011, 09:41 am
@HHS(Hop Hop Spinnekop)-60: Whether Jonker is a Sharks fan or not – all I am saying is that this issue has been so heavily covered in the media now, I am quite sure he will do his best to be neutral for the Sharks vs. Lions. Perhaps ‘too neutral’. Know what I mean ?
8 Jun 2011, 09:46 am
Jonker should have been stood down for a week as well … his bias was so obvious last week in Bloem (against Cheetahs)
8 Jun 2011, 09:50 am
the problem is the laws are OPEN to “interpretation”…
take that out of the equation and we’d see more consistency…
8 Jun 2011, 09:54 am
@keo(keo)-64: I think Jonker had a poor game all-round. The incident where the Cheetahs were calling for a penalty try came after an illegal turnover by the Cheetahs. If Marius Jonker was on his game, that would have been a penalty to the Sharks, and then the Sharks wouldn’t have to be hearing at the moment how he favored them.
I think to call Jonker’s refereeing biased in favor of the Sharks is entertaining media hype. Fact is, his performance in that game in general was poor. There were just more incidents that were glaringly obvious which benefited the Sharks.
8 Jun 2011, 09:59 am
@keo(keo)-64: Bias is a very subjective concept and quite difficult to prove Keo so how can you use it as an argument to have a ref “stood down” as you call it?
By the way I think that Jonker got a couple of calls wrong impacting the Tahs more so than the Sharks but then I also saw some rather debatable officiating at ruck time that seriously stifled the Sharks game. Even Naka said that the Sharks were dominating the collisions at ruck time in the first half yet they were way behind in the possession stakes at half time, tell me how that works without something going wrong at the breakdown?
8 Jun 2011, 10:02 am
@keo(keo)-64:
you seem to have forgotten that very sanctimonious article you wrote last year about blaming the refs?
8 Jun 2011, 10:03 am
@bananaboy(bananaboy)-67: You’re right. This isn’t Jonker’s first controversial game. But then, Jonathan Kaplan, Craig Joubert and to a lesser extent Mark Lawrence have all had questionable performances.
Pro Legoeta is clueless. He allows sides to play off-side all the time, and then penalises players when they aren’t off-side….I don’t know – the guy hasn’t got a clue to be honest. I could do a better job with the whistle than him.
Just by the way, I think it was last year when the Sharks played Cheetahs when Jonathan Kaplan had to go off because he had the trots, the Cheetahs won that game because of Pro Legoeta who came on as a ref. The Sharks had a decent lead at that stage, but Legoeta killed the game and the Sharks weren’t able to play an open style of rugby. So – the pendulum swings both ways. And Pro was suspended at that stage as well. Remember ?
8 Jun 2011, 10:06 am
@gunther keeps the cape in shape(gunther)-68: And I have got no problem with addressing the refereeing issue. The Sharks sure know how it hurts to have a referee suddenly lose their mind. We’ve had finals decided by that. So – we’ve had our fair share of hurt.
8 Jun 2011, 10:17 am
@poppa69(poppa69)-65: I think referees should be ex players, and not diminutive little first team wannabe’s that are suddenly endowed with the power of the whistle.
I like the fact that Glen Jackson (I think it is) is going through the process of becoming a ref. The more players that actually understand what happens on a rugby field, and in the bottom of the rucks and the middle of the mauls we can get the better.
Some of these guys are just on a power trip. And its not only the SA refs.
Mark Lawrence isn’t a garden gnome like the rest and strangely, his name seems to crop up much less when it comes to the subject of biased refereeing. All the rest are miniatures Peyper, Jonker, Kaplan, Legoete….I am telling you – its short man syndrome.
I had a lecturer at varsity. He was the head of a faculty department, who gave me 46% for an oral exam final, when I went into that room with a semester average of 93%. Unfortunately, he was a tiny little man with big ears and very little hair in a comb over. I never stood a chance…he had the power in his hands…
8 Jun 2011, 10:52 am
@poppa69(poppa69)-54:
lol
what are you saying pops?
that re-union is also spoof sci-fi fiction?
8 Jun 2011, 11:07 am
Any kiwi on here with a family don’t have a life.What is the time there now?
8 Jun 2011, 11:09 am
@charo(charo)-72:
“Once were warriors” is a fair reflecting of kiwi households then?
8 Jun 2011, 11:20 am
FARK the the Sanzar officials panel and Lyndon Bray se moer!
Pro erred on the side of caution. he doesnt deserve a suspenion.
There have been MUCH worse decisions by other refs that went unpunished. This is another chance to turn the screws on SA refs.
Where was Lyndon Bray last year when Roland let McCaw do whatever he pleased in an INTERNATIONAL 3Nations game?!
Speaking to McCaw for “the last time” over and over?
Pathetic
8 Jun 2011, 11:51 am
I’m delighted that refs are being put under the spot light more. This passed weekend as well as the Saders Reds match, was a clear indication that standards have dropped to tragic levels. It’s really just not good enough, and spoils the game. Naka has reason to feel aggrieved, as do the Tahs.
8 Jun 2011, 11:52 am
@HHS(Hop Hop Spinnekop)-60: Dude, sorry to bring this up but .. . Last time I checked the Lions never won a game when ANYONE was in charge, CC and S15.
8 Jun 2011, 11:53 am
I still believe that justice will be served somewhere soon. Refs must send out the memo. Sharks and Bulls must pay for the gimme results of last weekend.
8 Jun 2011, 12:00 pm
‘Good to see that referees are being punished for bad calls.
Next I would like to see a NZ or Aus referee get this treatment … I’m not holding my breath for that one!
8 Jun 2011, 12:06 pm
everyone needs to calm down, lyndon bray hasn’t said anything about marius jonker and his calling of the cheetahs game as he also had glowing reviews of dickenson’s blowing of the reds/saders game. the joubert/legoete situation is unique because a player was red carded and an unnecessarry judicial process set in motion which costs money.
if craig had merely missed a forward pass or pro missed an offside, none of this would’ve come out of bray.
8 Jun 2011, 12:09 pm
Lyndon Bray was a k@k referee… Don’t know how he made it to be in leadership
Maybe this explains it.
http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1995-02-05/
8 Jun 2011, 12:14 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-80: OK, so where would you draw the line. A bad call on a forward pass could cost even more (for the disadvantaged team). IMHO there should be no difference the treatment if a referee has made a mistake.
8 Jun 2011, 12:17 pm
@BlackJack(ThisSideUp)-82: Ummm I think Transie is being sarcastic BJ…
8 Jun 2011, 12:18 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-80: That is why we are shocked that Bray is critisizing the ref. The Refs have been untouchable for too long. Time for them to get publicly humiliated.
8 Jun 2011, 12:21 pm
@BringItHomeBoks(bokfan1)-83: hhhmmmm … didn’t quite pick up on that
8 Jun 2011, 12:32 pm
@stew(stew)-51: We shall see indeed mr Stew. We shall see wont we. I´ll leave the talking to the actual match. I sincerely hope we face the All Blacks this WC so you can all stop your whinging we only won last time round because we didnt have to play you guys. We shall see sir. Many tears to come. Evil cackle.
8 Jun 2011, 12:34 pm
@Dusky(Dusky)-71: you should work on your ahem… oral skills then sir. Maybe a bit less studying and a bit more practice with a cucumber would have done the trick?
8 Jun 2011, 12:39 pm
@poppa69(poppa69)-50: Widow licker eh? The fact of the matter is we can win the cup even with such a **** coaching team – and in all reality the main problem is PDV. You called for us to keep him – imagine if we beat you even with such a severe handicap? Ahh the shame. The humiliation. Beaten by Krusty and the clowns. Its on mofo its on! lol
Now wouldnt a final between us and NZ be the fitting end to it all? Or would you rather face the wannabes? Must get a bit boring. Lets face it mate – between us and the Ozzies no other team would really give the All Blacks a good run for their money. But hey maybe thats what you guys want? Nice bit of rigging keeping your bogey team in your pool. Very clever.
8 Jun 2011, 12:41 pm
@BringItHomeBoks(bokfan1)-83:
8 Jun 2011, 12:47 pm
@Slumtown(Slumtown)-86: By the look of the draw we should face the Boks in the semis – now with Christchurch being out , i do hope we face you guys at the House of Pain – revenge will be sweet … evil LOL
8 Jun 2011, 12:50 pm
@BlackJack(ThisSideUp)-82: Draw the line where Lyndon draws the line. anything the ref does in the heat of the game is reviewed and graded but the jonker/pro incident involved miscommunication between AS and Referee hence the public statement by Bray…like i said if this was just merely a yellow not given – as in the case of stefan deliberately tapping the ball down in an off-side position Lyndon would’ve classified it as Pro could’ve got “a bit better”.
@rossoneri(rossoneri)-84: this is what Bray said about Dickenson re Saders/Reds game:Bray felt overall Dickinson had refereed the game “pretty well”.
Bray watched the match on TV and knew the penalty was “a big call”. But that was what the referees were there to do – make decisions. It was a decision the referee knew would come under review because of “the magnitude of it”.
Ad Feedback Bray said the review of the refereeing performance was taken on a “big picture” level and then in “more detail”.
The big picture revealed a test match-like game with all the associated intensity. The players had done a good job of staying on their feet and the relatively low penalty count (12-4 in favour of the Reds) reflected that.
The detail suggested there were “four or five” decisions (read forward passes) Dickinson and his assistants could have got “a bit better”.
Bray said the leadup to the fateful final penalty revealed a knock-on back towards the halfway line that had been missed. Part of the blame with that lay with the assistant referee on that side of the field.
question is, has the assistant who missed the forward pass been stood down?
8 Jun 2011, 12:53 pm
@Slumtown(Slumtown)-87: oooooohhhh nasty Slummies
8 Jun 2011, 12:54 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-91: Sounds like Bray is opening up a can of worms with all this expression of opinions re: referee performances. If this continues you will soon get refs asking what the purpose of the grading system is if they still get hung,dried and quartered in the media.
I’m all for Bray taking refs to task but no need to express his opinion on refs in the press, it undermines their position on the field with the players.
8 Jun 2011, 13:01 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-92: lol – innuendo – gotta love it.
8 Jun 2011, 13:04 pm
@stew(stew)-90: Semis in the House of Pain – hmm sounds tempting. Certainly would be a great place to kick yer asses again! heheh Either way Stewie – we have ourselves some damn fine rugby coming up. In to be honest New Zealand is looking pretty darm good. But I reckon the Ozzies with a nice combination of players from Reds, Waratahs and Brumbies/ Force will be quite a handful too. SA aint dead and buried yet considering we may have 3 teams in the top 6 of this year´s Super Rugby tournament. Some of the older players are starting to hit some nice form again. Who knows?
8 Jun 2011, 13:10 pm
Although i will be crucified by my fellow countrymen , i think Aus will be a good bet for the WC – possible coaching team of Deans , Jones and a certain mr White is pretty solid ….. Also it is a good bet to judge since the Reds are top of the log and most of their players will make up the Ozzie test side.
8 Jun 2011, 14:35 pm
@Slumtown(Slumtown)-87: Hey, who am I to question – You sound like the master
8 Jun 2011, 14:36 pm
@gunther keeps the cape in shape(gunther)-57: why was Poops quiet when his coach Pat Lam was moaning all over new zealand media?
why was he quiet when todd blackadder was complaining about dickenson’s refereeing?
why was Poops quiet when tony johnson in his article and subsequently on his SKYNZ show ReUnion went on about Dickenson’s refereeing?
8)
8 Jun 2011, 14:43 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-98: because poops is a cyclops?
8 Jun 2011, 14:48 pm
@bananaboy(bananaboy)-93: it can’t be a can of worms when everyone here and in australasia has been screaming for accountability, now Bray is telling you how THEY work. he is being transparent and it should foster responsibility on the refs.
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