Coetzee denies BMT concerns
3 Jul 2011
Allister Coetzee says the Stormers don’t suffer from ‘stage fright’, despite them losing a home semi-final and three other big matches at Newlands this season.
It was the same old, same old disappointment from the Stormers. After the Super 14 final and the Currie Cup semi-final defeats to the Bulls last year, they blew another play-off tie as they delivered a dismal display against the Crusaders that saw them lose 29-10.
Realistically, the Cape side were favourites for the win. The game was played in their own back yard and had the previous week off while the Crusaders had to travel from New Zealand immediately after their qualifier triumph over the Sharks the Saturday before. Despite this advantage, Coetzee’s men imploded. The hosts looked like they were the ones who travelled around the world for the match as they were outplayed and beaten convincingly.
In retrospect, the semi-final hiding against the Crusaders was the Stormers’ fourth big defeat at Newlands in 2011. They lost against the Reds, Crusaders (again) and Bulls during the league stage at home – all pressure fixtures. After the loss against the Bulls, Coetzee defended his team by saying they won more close games this year, even with a flyhalf injury crisis. After Saturday’s semi-final loss, Coetzee lamented the performance but argued that the players didn’t falter because of the pressure.
‘We didn’t suffer from stage fright. We were beaten by a better Crusaders side,’ Coetzee told keo.co.za. ‘There is reason to be critical. We were poor in the scrums, we made elementary errors and the Crusaders capitalised on turnover ball.
‘We also let ourselves down tactically. By half-time, the Crusades made 70 tackles while we only made 20. We had more ball but we were playing it in the wrong areas of the field. We played with two inexperienced scrummies too and they did well. The loss of Dewaldt Duvenage was huge though as he’s been in these type of situations before and he’s been instrumental for us.
‘But I don’t think we lost because of stage fright. We just need to take this defeat on the chin and move on. This has still been a successful season.’
Inside centre Jean de Villiers said the Stormers’ early missed try opportunity had an effect on the game.
‘We scored the first points of the match, but we should’ve scored a try,’ De Villiers said. ‘We ran about four or five phases near the try line and decided to go with the short options. The Crusaders would’ve been happy with only conceding three points in that situation. After that, they scored an intercept try and from then the momentum swung their way.
‘I think these play-off defeats will help us in future seasons. The Bulls lost play-off games before they won their first Super Rugby title. It’s flipping tough but we just need to keep our chins up.’
Coetzee added that he believes silverware will come soon as he plans to bolster his squad, especially now that flanker Francois Louw (Bath) and lock Anton van Zyl (Stade Francais) will head for Europe.
‘We want to win trophies but we will need to create depth in certain positions,’ said Coetzee. ‘The Crusaders had Matt Berquist and Brent Ward to depend on when they had injuries. Both of those players had Super Rugby experience. The Bulls also have depth as they always have quality players coming off their bench.
‘We need to build a squad of 40 players. There’s plenty of character here but we need to get it right. The trophies will come.’
By Gareth Duncan
175 Comments
3 Jul 2011, 10:05 am
Grant10, I know you’re hurting but you’re pulling a Tacitus. Where are you?
3 Jul 2011, 10:05 am
Disgraceful Dragons, by the way.
3 Jul 2011, 10:09 am
Alistair I don’t think you can say that: 3 big games and 3 losses, 3 cups you had a chance at winning and you messed them all up.
Doesn’t sound good. The team yesterday was a shadow of the team that taught the Sharks 2 lessons this year.
3 Jul 2011, 10:10 am
That must have been the worst ever performance by a team in a Super Rugby semifinal. Awful.
3 Jul 2011, 10:12 am
What do Koster’s fan club – those who think he should be going to the RWC – have to say for themselves?
To be honest, I think he has great potential. But he showed yesterday that he is nowhere near ready.
3 Jul 2011, 10:13 am
@kaksioek(kaksioek)-4: In a semi maybe, I think the Chiefs hiding at Loftus in the final was the worst performance ever though.
3 Jul 2011, 10:22 am
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-6: I don’t remember the Chiefs playing that badly though – the Bulls were just on fire. But the Stormers – just awful.
3 Jul 2011, 10:29 am
me…a tacitus?
Never!
Came on late last night, I was at the game….
And again this morning on other thread.
I am happy to accept we were poor and turbo reversed ….
The truth is we were destroyed by a far better outfit and a few reputations lay in tatters this morning.
Stormers simply have to bolster squad….start at the props….both sides!
And we need a real general at 10…
I a,m all for the youth, but to win this damn competetion you need experience and depth.
I will personanally never accept this as an acceptable season [ AC should withdraw that contention ] .
Only a win is acceptable….the rest of the accolades are sister kissing.
Will be back later….
3 Jul 2011, 10:36 am
@grant10(grant10)-8: Good for you.
By the way, Habana’s try was extremely fortunate. When he dropped it on his boot it went much further than he was expecting and he had to dive for the ball. That is what got him under the tackles. Otherwise he probably would have been smashed. That was about the only thing that went right for the Stormers yesterday.
3 Jul 2011, 10:47 am
We had the world’s best centre pairing.” we were told again and again that jdv is a must for the world cup, as he has experience of playing on wet, heavy fields, having played for munster.
3 Jul 2011, 10:52 am
i find this infatuation withregards to buying more players laughable and a little bizarre.
the u21 group from last season was great….why not invest in them for a couple of years. nothing wrong with buying an excellent player in a specific position but the stormers have recruited more players than anyone else in the past 4 years with no return.
I’m pretty sure the bulls will call there young vodacom cup players and u21′s into the superrugby squad. surely this must be the way to go, if anything it builds the unions ethos and commitment and creates compition and ambition in the ranks.
is there really any surprise why the cape loses youngsters every year who become superstars elsewhere?
3 Jul 2011, 11:00 am
@Brigadier Van Zyl(Brigadier Van Zyl)-11: need a mix mate.
And stormers certainly need props….Kitshoff and Malherbe are both so young….they cannot realistically be expected to win Super 15 trophies at this stage….they can play and gain xperience, but we [ stormers ] need more depth……
F louw is a key player ….gone !
We need a class opensider….
It is no use believing in the pro era a bunch of good youngsters will take you all the way….they simply will not!
Stormers do not want to be 2 nd best….unacceptable….therefor we need to fully embrace the pro era and do what is neccessary by balancing the team with the touth and key areas that need to be rock solid.
That stormers front row were humiliated….I have not seen the turbo reverse so bad since plod in his hey day!
No Corporal Sunshine, Hard and critical evaluation has to be done….and I believe we are short in a few key areas as a Union.
3 Jul 2011, 11:13 am
We then bought world cup winning cj. To sit on the bench. We let mujati go. We have xholisi, nizaam and yaya.
3 Jul 2011, 11:15 am
@grant10(grant10)-12:
look, the Stormers are very much the Liverpool of sa rugby.
every season or 2 changing coach,changing players but in reality changing nothing.
3 Jul 2011, 11:19 am
In the past 2 years:
- The Stormers have won 2 from 3 semi finals at home.
- They have lost 2 AWAY finals. Winning a final away from home is a task not many have achieved.
- They have beaten the Bulls at Loftus, the Sharks at Durban (and convincingly at Newlands).
- They have won 5 from 8 games in Australasia including an unbelievable comeback in Auckland, even though they had several injured players missing.
- They have secured 3 home semi finals, which is more than any team in Super Rugby or CC can say.
So how can the Stormers have stage fright or be chokers in big matches. They played clinically in semi final victories over the Waratahs and Cheetahs. Winning away finals is not something that happens often. Don’t label them ‘chokers’, because they are not. They merely lost in this instance to a Crusaders team that is the best Super Rugby team in a while. Unfortunate home losses to the Reds, Crusaders and Bulls are overshadowing accomplishments which are not characteristic of a team that lacks BMT.
Disappointing season – yes, but don’t make this into something it’s not.
3 Jul 2011, 11:26 am
@Caper(Caper)-15: Some sober perspective here! Bravo!
3 Jul 2011, 11:26 am
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-3:
really? because blackadder’s been running the crusaders since 2007/8 and no silverware in the cupboard yet? and of course lets not forget, that fat old lady still has to sing her little bit so it might be another bare old cupboard for mrs hubbard again this year, guy…
so my point being…
3 Jul 2011, 11:28 am
@Caper(Caper)-15: you make some good points….however we must never allow ourselves to be satisfied at coming 2 nd…..or often that ‘acceptance culture ‘ becomes inherent.
For me I can take no solace in winning ithe SA Conference, etc….it is all about winning the trophy.
A few players were sadly out of there depth last night, fact.
Some are leaving…fact.
We need to make sure we replace well and do not solely rely on 20 and 21 year olds to do the job.
The inability to gain the services of Ruan Pienaar , Joe Pietersen, last year BJ Botha, is a poor reflection on the Stormers management this year and last…..
The Union has to be self critical and do a lot of introspection if we really harbour the desire to win this sort of tournament…I am sorry but I dont care about semis or making finals…..
I only care about winning….and I believe the Union should only measure its success on trophies in cabinets, not near misses.
3 Jul 2011, 11:29 am
@he’s not the messiah. he’s a very naughty boy!(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-17: Not interested in the Crusaders, they don’t have to prove anything. Stormers do though. Old mother hubbard went to the cupboard to get… oh wait it’s empty
3 Jul 2011, 11:30 am
@Caper(Caper)-15: Oh dear, choking implies not making it all the way through. Which you haven’t. Sounds like a choke to me chap.
3 Jul 2011, 11:31 am
@grant10(grant10)-18: You can me chap. Sharks and Stormers should have won at least one Super Trophy, both have been up and down. Not good enough from either of them.
3 Jul 2011, 11:35 am
@kaksioek(kaksioek)-5:
agreed
3 Jul 2011, 11:40 am
@grant10(grant10)-18: Yes, obviously I am (and I’m sure AC and the players are to) not satisfied with just another home semi final and a conference win. The Stormers were poor last night and many senior players never pitched up.
For me, our biggest problems were:
- A forward pack that were scrummed off the park and inconsistent at line out time. But the ‘Saders’ pack is the best in Super Rugby by a mile.
- Peter Grant showed PdV and everyone else why he is definitely not an option for the Boks. His line kicks are mediocre and his small goal kicking range limits the Stormers’ penalty options. To say that he did not dictate play is the understatement of the century.
- Jantjies offered nothing from fullback.
But the Stormers not chokers and don’t have stage fright. They are just inconsistent. As are the Springboks.
Hopefully Rassie and AC have a plan for the next few years. They are going to need one.
3 Jul 2011, 11:44 am
Turbo reversed!
Q
What do Brock, Liebenberg, Blaauw, Beast, Bismark and Jannie dup all have in common?
A
They all know the taste of their own arseholes after meeting the Franks snd the monster Crockett
3 Jul 2011, 11:44 am
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-20: Choking is not being able to perform on the big stage or when the stakes get high. The Stormers and WP have won many big matches and playoff matches in the past 2 years.
The Proteas are classic chokers. They haven’t won a playoff match (quarter final or semi final) in the CWC, despite winning numerous series and games between World Cups.
The All Blacks almost always dominate international rugby, yet when the RWC comes along they CHOKE under the pressure of expectations.
3 Jul 2011, 11:45 am
I hope this puts to bed any further notions of Allistair Coetzee becoming Bok coach.
He has been proven to be tactically mediocre, a poor selector, unable to inspire his players to perform in big games, and becomes flustered when under pressure in the second half, leading to rash substitutions out of desperation.
He is certainly not the man to coach the Springboks.
3 Jul 2011, 11:50 am
@Caper(Caper)-23:
Yes…
Facts are the saders are a brilliant outfit at the height of there powers….
The stormer scrum was humiliated…..the lineouts have been dicey for a while now….
again, I believe skop has it right about Elstaht being a blind side flank as opposed to a lock….he doesent get any lineout ball and the over reliance on A Bekker makes us predictable….this was even more so with Duane Vermeulen being absent.
I have been a Grant fan, but now have to face facts, he simply does not win the big games…..
AC is going to go to the cheque book, no doubts…..but needs to do so for the very best players and in those crucial positions where we have been found wanting.
I am not sure what will be happening, but we may very well see players like CJ, Habana, JF, Grant, Anton Van Zyl….F Louw all leaving….
I do not believe the u 21 s will easily fill those boots ….they may do a job, but will they win us the super 15 in 2012?
I dont think so.
Anyway, I am bleeding here, the loss cut deep….
Cheers
outta here
3 Jul 2011, 11:55 am
@Caper(Caper)-25: “The Stormers and WP have won many big matches and playoff matches in the past 2 years.”
No. You. Haven’t
3 Jul 2011, 11:57 am
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-19:
yes, but you cant make a rose into a spade at the same time depending on how you ‘feel’ like seeing it for your given situation. that same great team run by a great coach doing all the right things have gone hungry for as long as he’s been there (but have played some amazing footy along the way). how is this any different from the stormers story so far with ac? great team, great coach, doing all the right things and played some amazing footy along the way, but, came up short close to the final hurdle and like the crusaders under blackadder have now gone hungry.
but ac’s a doos- for his efforts so far and blackadder’s not? spades and roses guy, spades and roses…
3 Jul 2011, 12:03 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-28:
They have won 2 semi finals and many big teams (Bulls, Sharks, Crusaders, Blues, Waratahs to name a few).
3 Jul 2011, 12:07 pm
@he’s not the messiah. he’s a very naughty boy!(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-29: Never commented on AC, I said Stormers are chokers. They continue to prove it.
3 Jul 2011, 12:14 pm
@Caper(Caper)-30: And how many cups?
Rather stop, it’s embarrassing.
3 Jul 2011, 12:17 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-32: Hahaha look, I’m not saying that the Stormers are unlucky not to have won. All I’m saying is that they have not won a trophy and some big games, because of inconsistency and the lack of a complete team and seal proof game plan.
3 Jul 2011, 12:18 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-31:
ok sure no probs, its just you said:
“3.goyougoodthing2: Reply to this comment
3 Jul 2011, 10:09 am
Alistair I don’t think you can say that: 3 big games and 3 losses, 3 cups you had a chance at winning and you messed them all up.”
so i assume you refer to ac and not the team when you say “you messed them up”, but i guess you meant something different, cheers.
3 Jul 2011, 12:19 pm
@Caper(Caper)-33: It will come. Next year and this year to a degree it is a new competition.
The Mighty Bulls are leaving, a new breed needs to come through. Stormers have been so close perhaps next year (or this CC) is the time.
I’m not sure where the Sharks are, going up or down or sideways and it looks like the Lions are in freefall. Well unless they go to Soccer City for R25 bar as suggested.
3 Jul 2011, 12:20 pm
@he’s not the messiah. he’s a very naughty boy!(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-34: I meant the team and the whole collective, sorry poor grammar on my part. Not blaming only the coach. Apologies for that.
3 Jul 2011, 12:22 pm
Stormers have thankfully stolen the “chokers” tag from the Sharks.
3 Jul 2011, 12:23 pm
Still, can’t see the Stormers winning the trophy before the Sharks… and I guess that view still holds firm.
3 Jul 2011, 12:40 pm
In the final analysis, two arguments were proved right about the Stormers:
Refereeing: Joubert gave a stunning performance yesterday, accurate at the break down and the scrums, let the game flowing, watched for offside and was totally honest and non biased, the Stormers haven’t done well under that kind of refereeing this season.
Carter: That man needs to be sent to the moon or else,,, he took the Stormers forwards out of the game by stretching them with his well aimed kicks at the comical back three, especially Jantese and Aplon, he forced (like Cooper before) the Stormers’ locks and loose forwards to cover for those tokens throughout the game, it also slowed the Stormers counter attack when likes of Bekker and Berger had to run from deep inside their own 22 time and again, I counted 9 times of Koster breaking the line’s first and 2nd tackles just to became isolated without ANY forwards’ support.
We shall see in all likelihood new stalwarts such as Mujati and Lobert inserted into the Stormers’ lineup, the frequent subsequent defeats surely to keep the Stormers quiet for sometime, especially AC
3 Jul 2011, 12:45 pm
It could be much worse, the Crusaders avoided running up the score to keep themselves ready for the final, imagine what if they wouldn’t?
(They scored 6 points 2nd half)
3 Jul 2011, 13:00 pm
@Hondo(Hondo)-39:
i’m gonna take a stab at saying ‘your clearly not a stormers supporter then, are you?’..chop
3 Jul 2011, 13:07 pm
3 Jul 2011, 13:10 pm
Let’s cut the bullsh*t.
The last two seasons was the Stormers team at their peak. They ain’t gonna get any better than this.
Next year Habana will be gone, Francois Louw will be gone, Jacque Fourie and de Villiers will either be gone or over their best (Fourie is already a yard slower than he was when he scored that series winning try for the Boks against the British Lions), Burger is already over his best and slipping further every year, etc. etc.
If the Stormers were going to win a trophy in this 5 year cycle, it should have been last year or this year. All this talk of building to something new is a farce.
You could see it in De Villiers’ and Burger’s eyes. They know they will never win a Super trophy in their careers. This was their chance, and they couldn’t take it.
The Stormers’ peak has come and gone, and they have nothing to show for it.
The Bulls’ peak has also come and gone, but they have 5 Currie Cups and far more importantly, 3 Super rugby trophies in the bag a a reward for their efforts.
Sorry Stormers fans. Your team blew their chance at glory.
3 Jul 2011, 13:18 pm
@he’s not the messiah. he’s a very naughty boy!(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-41:
I surly supported them yesterday, and lost money in the process
Joubert with his stunning performance put the whole scenario on its head, did you notice Jonker’s omission at the last minute? he was still on the officials’ List yesterday
3 Jul 2011, 13:21 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-43:
Not sure about Fourie, did you watch his defensive interception from the Crusaders on the try line?
Must be happened at 10.8/100m
3 Jul 2011, 13:29 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-43:
Let’s just say none of these Silvers were won by the Bulls with Chilibooi in their line up
The game changed now, better get ready for another long dry spell
3 Jul 2011, 13:32 pm
@Hondo(Hondo)-46:
I must be honest and say I find you overly fixated on racial issues in rugby.
While the quota system deserves criticism, not all players of colour are quotas.
You need to learn to make that distinction, I reckon.
3 Jul 2011, 13:34 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-43:
really? because blackadder’s been coaching the crusaders since 2007/8 and he’s won sweet phukall to date in his teams cycle (might even go home empty handed this season too). where would you say, according to your theory, his team is peaking at within their 5 year cycle? is it right now? was it a few seasons ago? is it still a season to come in their 5yr cycle?
its a good thing this isnt science and we dont need these theories to prove fundamental aspects of reality as needed isnt it?
3 Jul 2011, 13:35 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-43: The combination of (i) being thumped 27 – 0 by the Crusaders away; (ii) being drilled at home by the Sharks; and (iii) out-muscled at home by the Highlanders; lends me to think that the Bulls wouldn’t have fared any better were they to have played the Crusaders at home yesterday.
Well done on your 3 trophies. I can only guess how it would have turned out had the rightful team won it back in 2007.
3 Jul 2011, 13:37 pm
@Hondo(Hondo)-44:
oh ok, sorry. i guess you get the benefit of a ’50/50′ call then
3 Jul 2011, 13:47 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-47:
ja, i second that…
3 Jul 2011, 13:49 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-47: I would like to take credits for your conversion but I presume that common sense must have been barking at your door for quite a while now.. enjoy the sunshine
@Hondo(Hondo)-46: Tacitus has just left laager.. I think its all yours now.. put out the fire when finished with the sausages.. gates close at 5
3 Jul 2011, 13:52 pm
Catch you all later
3 Jul 2011, 13:59 pm
Maybe the Stormers don’t have BMT, considering that was possibly the worst i have seen them play the whole season yesterday.
Even Bekker who I rate highly was very poor, they just didn’t seem to have any rhythm or something.
3 Jul 2011, 14:04 pm
I am with Tacticus on this. The Stormers are likely to be weaker next year than they were this year. They will lose players – Louw is a big loss already as is van Zyl, who should have received plenty more game time this year, and yesterday’s game is the kind of demoralising loss which causes some players to jump ship.
The Stormers’ game plan has also been figured out, and found wanting. This will have to change next year. The question for the Stormers is, who do they buy, and what type of players do they buy?
Short term purchases such as CJ, Habana and Fourie haven’t delivered a trophy, and in some ways, has slowed down the development of players such as de Jongh.
A major point of difference that the Stormers have is the huge amount of young talent in the region. They need to start doing something with that talent, rather than trying to buy success.
3 Jul 2011, 14:09 pm
@WOLFMAN21(WOLFMAN21)-55:
please refer to post #48
3 Jul 2011, 14:19 pm
@WOLFMAN21(WOLFMAN21)-55: If Fourie sticks around he should be made Captain. He runs defence and was the best back on the field yesterday. Hopefully he won’t run off to France quite yet.
3 Jul 2011, 14:24 pm
@he’s not the messiah. he’s a very naughty boy!(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-56: Crusaders are a different team to the Stormers, with a different situation, and a different developmental pattern.
Their current success helped by the fact that they have had world class players such as McCaw, Thorne and Carter for a number of years now, and they have recruited wisely, something which is made possible by the Kiwi system. Guildford and Dagg have made a massive difference.
Their youngsters have also been able to step up when they have lost players. Their number 13 is better than Lualua, Franks has outperformed a guy like Somerville, Wyatt Crockett has been great, and getting Sonny Bill has off set the loss of Bowden, and Todd performs when McCaw can’t play. Read has also really come into his own, and is still young, plus they have another 9 Whitelock brothers who are waiting for a chance to play.
If they manage to keep the team together, and depending on players such as Carter, the Crusaders could be better next year than they were this year, and possibly even better the year after.
As for the Stormers, their forward pack needs perhaps 3 or 4 new players (front-row, a lock and a backrower). Their flyhalf is mediocre, Habana doesn’t offer much, and they need a new fullback. Depending on JDV and Fourie, they might also need a new centre.
Do they buy older players such as Viljoen, younger players such as the Ebersohns, or develop the players already in their systems, realising that they might take a couple of seasons to gain experience.
3 Jul 2011, 14:28 pm
@he’s not the messiah. he’s a very naughty boy!(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-48:
Really?
Who won the title in 2008 then – one of Blackadder’s first season’s in charge?
3 Jul 2011, 14:31 pm
@WOLFMAN21(WOLFMAN21)-58:
your analysis is pretty much there or there about i agree but would you really have said any of this about the crusaders last season or the season before? and to top it off, if you did say it and they then lost the next three seasons (albeit closely) would you then write them off as having possibly squandered their ‘cyclical peak opportunity’ as tac seems to think the stormers have?
3 Jul 2011, 14:33 pm
In my view the Sharks peaked in 2007, the Bulls in 2009 and the Stormers in 2010.
It just so happens that the Bulls achieved a lot more in the buildup to their peak, and retained enough good form after moving past their zenith to still win the trophy in 2010 even though they were already on a downward curve due to ageing stars in their team.
The Bulls peak was simply put much longer and at a much higher level than any other SA team has ever been able to achieve.
3 Jul 2011, 14:35 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-59:
yes your right, sorry, but its still just one in four attempts out of a possible five so far.
i think perspective is important.
3 Jul 2011, 14:40 pm
@he’s not the messiah. he’s a very naughty boy!(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-48:
Todd has in fact only been the Crusaders Coach since 2009.
3 Jul 2011, 14:42 pm
@WOLFMAN21(WOLFMAN21)-58:
Another 9 Whitelocks………………………………………….well one anyway Wolfie.
8)
3 Jul 2011, 14:44 pm
@he’s not the messiah. he’s a very naughty boy!(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-62: What are you trying to prove? That the WP are not chokers or that Blackadder is an unlucky coach or what?
3 Jul 2011, 14:44 pm
@cane(cane)-64: It feels like there could be 9!
I thought the Crusaders had 5 on their books.
3 Jul 2011, 14:45 pm
@he’s not the messiah. he’s a very naughty boy!(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-62:
I’m afraid it is that ‘perspective’ which leads to the acceptance of the status quo, the repeated unrealistic expectations, and ultimately to the decade and counting long trophy drought in Cape Town.
3 Jul 2011, 14:46 pm
@WOLFMAN21(WOLFMAN21)-58: How are the Stormers to buy all these players when they don’t have any money?
3 Jul 2011, 14:48 pm
No end to the arrogance of the Mountain Goats:
http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Super15/Jean-de-Villiers-Were-where-Bulls-were-20110703
Jean you got a hiding, this is quite a statement
3 Jul 2011, 14:49 pm
First off, what an awesome performance by the Crusaders. And if you think they were awesome on the field, you should see how humble these guys are off the field. Champions in every sense.
I find it interesting on how the Stormers should now go out an buy new players… Why?
For my money, the Stormers are onto something great here and ‘buying’ mercenaries would destroy what has been built towards in the last 2 to 3 years.
The only players confirmed leaving the Stormers at the moment, is Anton van Zyl, Ricky Januarie and Francois Louw.
Of course, question marks are hanging over JDV, Fourie and Habana, but even if they leave the Stormers have manage to groom players in the last 18 months that could easily make the step up albeit not replacing the experience if counted in caps.
Pieter Louw could easily fill the shoes of Francois Louw, and in the wings you still have Koster, Kolisi and Carr.
Duvenhage is not going anywhere, and in Schreuder and Groom who now also received a taste of Super Rugby, why go look for someone else?
Never really quite rated Grant, but with Lionel Cronje, Gary van Aswegen and young Coleman – why shop around? Experience? Who?
The Stormers have unearthed a gem in Sadie and with De Jongh, even if Jean and Mossie leaves – why invest in a high profile player?
So what if Habs leaves? Engelbrecht and Danie Poolman both cut their teeth at Super Rugby level – why go shop?
Anton van Zyl might leave a gap, but how well did Elstadt step up this year partnering with Bekker? Invest in a high profile experienced player? It would be stupid.
There is no doubt the Stormers scrum got destroyed last night, but so did our Springbok front row Sharks team not too long ago. So is the problem the props, front row or their ability, or perhaps technical aspects that need refining or even conditioning? Stormers tried to ‘buy’ experience in the front row in CJ van der Linde, and he has been ****, even worse than the youngsters learning their trade.
There is no point for the Stormers to go an invest in high profile players – that money can be used to find and groom depth for guys stepping into the shoes of high profile players leaving.
Find an alternative for Elstadt and Bekker, and that does not necessarily need to be a high profile player.
So too all the other positions they might be short on depth.
The players the Stormers have now are good enough to step up – they all showed it in various stages of this competition.
Invest in a culture, not mercenaries.
3 Jul 2011, 14:51 pm
Jean DV… : He drew a comparison with the Bulls team of the mid-2000s, who started to show some promise after years of Loftus malaise with successive appearances in Super 12/Super 14 semi-finals in 2005 and 2006.
“They lost each time then (to the Waratahs and then Crusaders) but eventually in their third year they managed to get the tournament win,” De Villiers noted.
____________________________
The ego has not landed
3 Jul 2011, 15:13 pm
I belive the Stormers best buy was Jaque Fourie, he has proved himself a world class centre.
I would look to keep Habana, Fourie and De Villiers. I also belive that post 2011 De Villiers should move to no.14 and Juan De Jongh should be placed at no.12..
15 Gio Aplon / Lionel Cronje
14 Jean De Villiers / Danie Poolman
13 Jaque Fourie / Tim Whitehead
12 Juan De Jongh / Johaan Sadie
11 Bryan Habana / JJ Engelbrecht
10 Peter Grant / Gary Van Aswegen / Kurt Coleman
9 JANO VERMAAK / FRANCOIS HOUGAARD / Dewaldt Duvenhage
8 Duane Vermeulen
7 Nick Koster / Pieter Louw
6 Schalk Burger
5 Andries Bekker
4 Rynhard Elstadt / De Kock Steenkamp
3 CJ Van Der Linde / JC Kritzinger / Brok Harris
2 Tiaan Liebenberg / Deon Fourie / S Ntubeni
1 Steven Kitshoff / Wickus Blaauw / Frans Malherbe (spelling)
3 Jul 2011, 15:16 pm
Jean did his overseas stint, I’ll doubt he will do another. Fourie got recently married, so even if there is still a case for him, it won’t be a straight forward decision.
Habs… Well, who knows.
3 Jul 2011, 15:17 pm
Burger cannot be captain anymore. The best games Schalk Burger plays are when he has nothing else to concentrate on than what he is doing. He doesnt play well with the responsibilities of the team and strays away from hitting rucks etc…
Anton Van Zyl is a good leader so it is dissapointing that he is going to Stade Francais
The Stormers do need to make some new signings to the squad, every team has signings so stop this old talk of only building from within because no team should be made to wait for youngsters to develop. The time is now and the time to go out on win tophys is now. The Stormers have won at Loftus, The Shark tank, Bloem and Joburg this season. This bodes well for the Currie Cup. WP need to go one step further this season in the CC than last year. Yesterdays match was so dissapointing. They will be kicking themselves today.
3 Jul 2011, 15:21 pm
@Rhys7(Rhys7)-74:
Who should they buy?
3 Jul 2011, 15:30 pm
@Rhys7(Rhys7)-72: Keep Habana and you won’t win a cup
3 Jul 2011, 15:49 pm
Stormers lost because they were completely complacent, since when do you try and attack the crusaders from basicly everywhere? And when they attacked they were way to deep, all the saders did was fan out and tackle aggresively! Am I the only one did saw gaping wholes close to ruck, if the stormers picked and go a bit then saders would have defended a lot closer to the frnges leaving space outwide. This semi was by far the most dissapointing game I have seen this year. If the stormers want 2b succesfull next year, they need props, openside flanker and fullback
3 Jul 2011, 15:57 pm
1. Identify the problem.
2. Construct a plan.
3. Execute.
4. Goto (1).
The key is to grasp the problem, or problems. Some obvious symptoms:
- scrum disintegration
- lineout failure
- failing to cope with defensive linespeed
- ball retention
- weak kick-return
- terrible tactical kicking
- …
Some of these are clearly personnel issues. #9 was industrious, brave accurate and commendable, but predictable. Consequently the rush defence killed the Stormers back line. Both #9 and #10 should have targeted the Carter channel more, with support from loose forwards. Vermeulen was missed.
3 Jul 2011, 15:58 pm
… Ok, I give up. Can’t type at this interface. You probably get the drift …
3 Jul 2011, 16:49 pm
Simple question: Whats “BMT”? Something to do with Mental Toughess or Intestinal Fortitude?
Can some-one clear this up for me. Ta.
3 Jul 2011, 16:53 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-70: PA, players aside, what is your opinion on the current coaching staff? Because I’m still not convinced Coetzee is the man to take this side forward.
3 Jul 2011, 16:56 pm
@BillTong(BillTong)-80: Mental toughness, the ability to subdue the butterflies and doubts and win the big ones, close them out.
Something the Sharks could not do in 2007 and it hurt them for years after. I still don’t know if we are going to win sometimes, even 20 clear and 10 to go.
3 Jul 2011, 16:57 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-81:
I raised criticism of Allister in the past where I do not believe he backs himself enough to make the tough calls.
I think AC is great for the team, he manages them well and they have huge amounts of respect for one another, I am just concerned that when the crunch comes, he does not back himself enough.
3 Jul 2011, 16:57 pm
@BillTong(BillTong)-80: Big Match Temperament – it’s all the rage right now. It slots in with other hot words like “x-factor” when people think they’re onto something “cool” in modern rugby talk.
3 Jul 2011, 16:59 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-84: Nah, BMT has been around forever. In the old days the Boks had the BMT over the kiwis, then isolation and it’s been reversed since. Except World Cups of course. NZ can’t and won’t win another one.
3 Jul 2011, 17:02 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-83: He reminds me so much of Jake in so many ways – it’s no wonder Jake was suggesting him to be the next Bok coach. He is so unreservedly loyal and risk averse. Conservative in his choices to the point where you start to worry he’s not reacting where he probably should be.
3 Jul 2011, 17:03 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-86:
Cannot disagree with that.
3 Jul 2011, 17:06 pm
So – it’s not Bloody Marvellous Team then !
That, of course, would be the Crusaders….
3 Jul 2011, 17:09 pm
@BillTong(BillTong)-88: Not sure who plays better for the Saders, Ritchie or Bryce Lawrence
3 Jul 2011, 17:14 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-89:
Well, since Bryce wasn’t in Capetown yesterday, I’d have to say that its probably Richie…
But I think there were 8 “Richies” in the Crusaders forward pack yesterday – those guys really stood up. Will be interesting to see whether they can front up again next week. If they can play like that again, and take the space and time away from Genia and Cooper, they’ll win again in my opinion….
I don’t think they’ll kick as much next week either – Quade is no Peter Grant with his goal kicking (which is why I think they kicked as much as they did – they didn’t want to play the game in their own half.
3 Jul 2011, 17:22 pm
@BillTong(BillTong)-90: Well they will have Ritchie and that cheating referee so my money is on them. Unfortunately.
Mind you, might be the only cup NZ wins this year.
3 Jul 2011, 17:22 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-87: Where do you draw the line though? We all understand the value of continuity but its worthless if it’s not accompanied by some level of progress. If the board of Directors hauled AC into the boardroom to evidence his progress over the last 3 years, would he really have anything to show them?
3 Jul 2011, 17:24 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-92: What do you want though, the government has had 17 years and nothing to show for it, what can one man do to a rugby team in 3?
3 Jul 2011, 17:25 pm
@cane(cane)-63:
its actually since july 2008 but that still adds up to 4 seasons and only 1 trophy.
3 Jul 2011, 17:28 pm
@cane(cane)-63:
well he was appointed in july 2008, and, (i’m asking because i’d like to know) did deans see out the whole of the 2008 season? anyway that still adds up to 3 seasons and only 1 trophy (so far) bar next week.
3 Jul 2011, 17:29 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-91:
Don’t think so.
NZ already has won:
- The World Sevens Cup.
- The Junior RWC
Then there’s;
- The TriNations
- The Bledisloe
And of course,
- the wee Gold One in October
3 Jul 2011, 17:32 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-91:
There was a very nice shot of ‘Snor” on TV at the start of the game yesterday – looking very “chipper’ and “jack the lad”.
Then they showed him again towards the end of the match – he more or less had his head in is hands, and was looking away from the pitch. It had probably just stuck him what he’s up against in about 2 months…..
3 Jul 2011, 17:36 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-93: Yeah luckily for us Province/Stormers haven’t been nationalised just yet, so we can keep those types of numbers far away in a dark place for now. That’s a- whole-nother level!!
3 Jul 2011, 17:40 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-65:
that you guys are not putting ac and the stormers performance into proper perspective. the crusaders have been the ones playing ‘all’ the rugby and receiving ‘all’ the coaching but have not done well in the last four years. only 1 trophy out of 4 and a possible 5 attempts. the stormers and ac have also been there or there abouts for the last few years. now, if we all agree that this isnt the special olympics where we can all be winners then how are the stormers any worse than the crusaders comparitively?
3 Jul 2011, 17:42 pm
@BillTong(BillTong)-96: There is, but the one you want, it’s not going to happen.
3 Jul 2011, 17:42 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-59:
oh about that 2008 title theres a question mark there about who was coaching them. it might have still been deans.
3 Jul 2011, 17:42 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-43:
In 2008, after winning the S14 title the previous year, the Bulls ended in 10th spot. This when they lost only Victor Matfield who went to France.
Next year you will be without 5 of your stalwarts (VM; FdP; Gurthro; Gary: Bakkies) and possibly Danie. How do you think you will fare in the coming years when the lost of just one player had such a huge impact on your team’s performance just a few years ago?
Rather worry about that than the Stormers. We will still be there or there about in the coming years, challenging for the title. Your boys?
I don’t think so. In fact, I know they won’t.
3 Jul 2011, 17:46 pm
@he’s not the messiah. he’s a very naughty boy!(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-99: ha ha ha you are kidding. De.Lu.Sion.Al.
saders are million times champs, a walking all black team, winners in the last 4 years.
stormers have won nothing at all in 11. Nothing. Zero sweet FA. 2 Finals 1 semi and nada.
You can’t compare
3 Jul 2011, 17:52 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-67:
would anyone say that similarly its that type of ‘perspective’ which has led blackadder and the crusaders team and union bosses into an acceptance of the status quo, with unrealistic expectations and ultimately a long trophy drought because they’re sticking with blackadder the players and their systems?
no,i dont think anyone would but how is this different to the stormers ‘perspective’. the fact is they still only have 1 trophy out of 5 attempts, so far. (yes lets see what happens next week).
3 Jul 2011, 17:59 pm
@he’s not the messiah. he’s a very naughty boy!(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-104: Are you honestly saying you think that the Stormers are as good a team as the Crusaders? Seriously?
If you are then you need some therapy
3 Jul 2011, 17:59 pm
@funkyzoo(funkyzoo)-78:
exactly, agreed.
in fact, i think if we investigated it we’d probably find out that’s more or less chapter one of the crusaders coaching rule book.
3 Jul 2011, 18:01 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-92:
There is plenty we can highlight as specifics for the failures last night, I do however feel that all those are small things to be corrected.
I did put my thoughts together earlier today, you might like it.
http://www.ruggaworld.com/2011/07/03/hearing-is-believing/
3 Jul 2011, 18:10 pm
@BillTong(BillTong)-96:
nah man, the first two are really just special olympics ‘every bodies a winner’ stuff and the 3nations and bledisloe’s just gonna be about mind games, rondfok and testing combo’s this year.
theres only one show in town, we all know that…
3 Jul 2011, 18:17 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-105:
even the crusaders dont get a prize for ‘being as good as the crusaders’, guy. remember, its not the special olympics, trophies are what counts at the end of the day and by that measure it hasnt helped the crusaders for ‘being as good as the crusaders’ in the last 5 years.
3 Jul 2011, 18:19 pm
@he’s not the messiah. he’s a very naughty boy!(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-109: So, answer the question then. So 1 from 4 so far and ZERO from 22 (CC and Super Rugby) is comparable. LOL ha ha ha lol lol ha ha ha someone give me some O2. bwah ha ha ha ha ha ha
3 Jul 2011, 18:22 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-107:
I just went to your link and read your article.
I can sense your disappointment. I can sense your passion. But I must be brutally honest.
I think you are too close to the team and players, and your emotions are interfering with your reason in this shall we call it “soft” analysis of the Stormers failure.
Fact is, in the nothing has changed at Newlands for 10 years. The team of next year will be missing almost as many senior players as the Bulls will. Yet we keep hearing about the Bulls reaching the end of an era, while the Stormers are apparently “building for something big in the near future”.
Sorry. That is simply not the talk of someone in touch with reality. The Stormers chance at a trophy has come and gone. Probably for the next 3-5 years at least.
3 Jul 2011, 18:23 pm
Coetsee is lost, he’s a useless JW clone coach and he just follows orders when Burger and Rupert shout jump then Coetsee and Rassie ask how high.
They never used the true leaders in the team van Zyl or JdV properly and played wrong mix of loose forwards with Burger actually stuffing up the cohesion in the team with Elstadt playing wrong position and Louw the real breakdown specialist playing wrong side of scrum.
Whole Stormers philosophy is flawed with this idea of hero worship status of likes of Burger, Bekker, Fourie, Habana etc getting too big for their boots. Real captain and down to earth leader and brains in engine room Van Zyl hardly got a game shows what dismal lunacy runs this team with the idiot Burger leading the charge of the light brigade game after game.
Had van Zyl or de Villiers captained this team then BMT would not have been an issue and can almost guarantee would have finished with far more credibility than we did under the Rassie/Coetsee/Burger delinquency that has hamstrung this team for 2 years on the trot.
Bring in a Deans or Mckenzie with a proper brain and leader for captaincy and see the huge difference unfold.
3 Jul 2011, 18:27 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-111: Tac the truth is all Stormers’ supporters and even the team are deluded. JDV said in an interview “we are where the Bulls were before they won”. Big statement from a deluded mind.
3 Jul 2011, 18:29 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-112: I thought AC was the saviour, your genius who should have been Bok coach?
3 Jul 2011, 18:33 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-113:
The Bulls team that lost 2 semfinals in 2005 and 2006 lost both of those in Australasia, not at home. And that Bulls team had already won 3 Currie Cup trophies in a row.
The Stormers had no reason to lose yesterday. The Bulls teams that won the trophy in 2007 and 2009 didn’t even have a rest weekend like the Stormers did last week.
Fact is, it was only mental weakness that cost the Stormers their victory. The Crusaders came to Loftus and Soweto 3 times in semifinals, and got clobbered by the Bulls each time.
I mentioned to someone that when the Bulls were playing in home semifinals, they would come out firing and stampeding, but in comparison the Stormers came out like limp breezes.
There is no other explanation than mental weakness. They are NOTHING like the Bulls team of the mid 2000′s.
3 Jul 2011, 18:36 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-115: No they are not, even their mothers know this, deep down inside.
When I hear them crowing now I won’t get cross and think they are arrogant anymore, they are mentally ill. Deluded. Like Moses in the wilderness 11 years of empty cabinets has driven them all mad
3 Jul 2011, 18:36 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-110:
no man, were comparing blackadder’s reign and teams under him with ac’s reign and teams under him for the duration of their respective seasons so far.
your not focused on what were discussing and (as well as) the thread/articles topic in question. this was never a discussion of the history of the two teams and their successes within the duration of that history.
3 Jul 2011, 18:39 pm
@he’s not the messiah. he’s a very naughty boy!(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-117: Ok then. No trophies for you. 1 for them.
A record which is 100, 300 or 1 million times better than the WP and AC.
1 Final choke, 1 semi choke.
Not good reading really.
You can’t spin it any way other than no trophies.
Can I claim half a 2007 s14 trophy because the Sharks were robbed? Not a chance. Sharks zero bulls 3. Same applies to you
3 Jul 2011, 18:40 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-111:
i thought we shot down this ‘cyclical peak theory’ of yours guy?
3 Jul 2011, 18:43 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-111:
No problem Tac. But I would like to think it is different.
I think you know how I not only analyzed, but praised the Bulls structures and the way they went about getting the job done.
To add, I have been extremely critical of the Stormers/WP setup over the last 6 years, highlighting mostly, but not exclusively, their lack of planning and investment in junior structures.
Look ultimately supporters judge their, or opposition teams by the silverware they have in the cupboard. And supporters of the Stormers or those criticising the team will use this as their primary platform or foundation to highlight the union’s failures, and they have every right to of course.
For instance I read the Bulls new streamlining of their structures with much interest on Wednesday, and I said at the time that they are getting it 100% spot on and will yet again lead the way for other teams to follow. Many will believe they will go through a ‘dip’ – I dont.
Perhaps it is also because I am seeing this in my current work environment, or the fact that success in general, not just rugby, is built on a ‘culture’ that exists within any business, and not short term achievements that I have written that.
Believe it or not, my motivation for writing what I did was not Allister, Jean or the Stormers match last night – it was when the Crusaders boys came out to do their bit in the press conference.
The Crusaders, similar to the Bulls in a South African context, is not a winning team, it’s a winning culture.
Stormers/WP to my mind, is there and there abouts achieving this very thing.
3 Jul 2011, 18:46 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-120: PA the truth is your Union is being run by the Presidents’ Council and not by rugby men, nor by business men.
That’s why there is no money and Rob Wagner has no say in what goes on. That is why things are a mess. How can a province with so much talent at varsity level be so poor to be honest? Because there is a major issue that goes deeper than rugby.
3 Jul 2011, 18:46 pm
I must call time though folks, chat tomorrow.
3 Jul 2011, 18:48 pm
where you get your garbage from Goodytwoshoestwat? Have you ever seen me praising AC ever? you must be fckd in the head deluded, same way as you reckon Burger is a better human and captain leader and rugby player to Watson, that’s how much you actually know or read about what I painfully stipulated for dunces like you here day after painfully obvious f’ng days.
Coetsee has NEVER been my choice for coach EVER. As coaches go Pdv leaves this JW dubious chickenarse clone of a coach in the absolute shade. And that ain’t saying all that much in the final analysis when Pdv picks Smit Matfield Burger Spies and FdP as his hope against disconsolate hope vanguard to bring him some miraculously hopeful WC spoils. Ain’t gonna happen long as these goons run the saffa rugby show.
Long as players like Burger, Smit, FdP, Spies etc get put on falsified pedestals when they simply don’t possess half the degree of character or class that their hero worshiping status’s denote, then we’ll always play off the back foot.
Coaches have to realize what actually represents the strength in a team and its never the fake hero individual but always the uncompromising whole.
3 Jul 2011, 18:48 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-118:
thats my point exactly, we can agree that the team of the last four years were the bulls. we certainly cant say the crusaders were the team of the last four years anymore than we can say the stormers were not.
3 Jul 2011, 18:48 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-121:
Mate you seemed to have summed up the Lions union, or any of the other 13 unions in SA there…
3 Jul 2011, 18:56 pm
@nama1(nama1)-102:
That’s not entirely correct.
The Bulls had a change in management. They were negative about losing Heyneke MEyer, and most importantly, they refused to adapt to the ELVs that were brought in for 2008.
It wasn’t just a case of losing V Matfield. And let’s not forget that was 4 years prior to 2012, so there has been plenty of growth and maturing among players and coaches.
I don’t see any problem next year with a Bulls team like this:
1. Greyling
2. Chili/Willie
3. W Kruger
4. Flip vd Merwe
5. Juandre Kruger
6. Stegmann
7. Potties
8. Spies (K?)
9. Hougaard
10. M Steyn
11. Basson
12. Olivier (K?)
13. Dippies
14. GvdH
15. Kirchner (could see an import give him competition)
Add R de Klerk, CJ Stander, GJ vVelze, Bandjes, Berend, Watermeyer etc. The Bulls are fine.
The Bulls have enough talent to take the S15 in 2012, in my opinion.
We can’t they build an even bigger legacy? Hougaard can be better than FdP, the Flip/Kruger combo can become huge. And our loose trio is a formidable unit and remains unchanged. Our halfback pairing is top class, our backline remains the same, our front row remains the same.
So what is the problem exactly?
3 Jul 2011, 18:57 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-125: Maybe not the Sharks and Bulls so much PA.
3 Jul 2011, 18:59 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-123: I see, okay then. Don’t have a conniption fit.
3 Jul 2011, 19:00 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-120:
Fair enough. I think you have a lot more insight into the inner workings at WP than I do. But nothing about their structures etc. would have changed yesterday’s result. It was just a terrible, terrible performance.
It’s like these guys – including Schalk Burger, Jean de Villiers, Andries Bekker and a horde of other veterans – have their brains turned to jelly when they enter a must win, big game situation.
To lose 29-10, at NEWLANDS. Man, there’s no excuse for that.
What makes it even worse is that I wasn’t surprised when it happened in the least. It was just the continuation of an established trend.
3 Jul 2011, 19:00 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-127:
Bulls might be the exception, but as far as the Sharks goes, give this a read and specifically the comments that follow (not from myself but those boys close to the union)
http://www.sharksworld.co.za/2011/07/01/importance-of-a-youth-structure/
3 Jul 2011, 19:03 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-115:
“Fact is, it was only mental weakness that cost the Stormers their victory. The Crusaders came to Loftus and Soweto 3 times in semifinals, and got clobbered by the Bulls each time.
I mentioned to someone that when the Bulls were playing in home semifinals, they would come out firing and stampeding, but in comparison the Stormers came out like limp breezes.
There is no other explanation than mental weakness. They are NOTHING like the Bulls team of the mid 2000?s.”
Reading through all the junk of the day, this makes it worth it. Tacitus, you bring a smile to my face…. and sometimes a tear or two.
Toughies WP. You won 2 games more than the Bulls. Gratz.
Let’s look forward to the Tri Nations.
3 Jul 2011, 19:05 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-129:
You are absolutely right Tac, not only was this an embarrassment for the union and their fans, it makes a mockery of whatever they proclaim to be working towards.
Call it BMT, call it whatever you like, the Stormers/WP lacks that one thing, that one instinct that is the difference between a champion team, and a bridesmaid team.
Personally, I believe that is something that starts with a culture or mental application on these occasions rather than individual skills or talent. And my point of reference is that a culture, in business or in rugby, is not bought, it is earned and developed.
3 Jul 2011, 19:07 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-131:
Correct, and I am tired of saying how important mental coaching for mental application is in sport.
3 Jul 2011, 19:10 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-132:
Ah. I see your reasoning. At the Bulls, I think it came down to a few very special individuals who formed the core of that culture, led by Heyneke Meyer and Victor Matfield.
It will be interesting to see if that can be re-established, and it seems that Heyneke is intending to build it all again from scratch, identifying the new Victor Matfield, Du Preez and Rossouw at age group or Currie Cup level, and building a new dynasty around them.
In that, you are right that it takes years to instill such a culture. But I just don’t see the Stormers progressing towards it. Buying high profile players that didn’t come through the ranks of your unique culture – like Habana, Fourie, Van Zyl etc. certainly does not help, in my view.
That is the opposite of the type of bottom up development that you’re advocating.
3 Jul 2011, 19:11 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-132:
Do you think that players under such a culture from a home franchise can breath that into a national team? If so, do you think that their greater representation in the national team can amplify this effect?
3 Jul 2011, 19:15 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-134:
They are not there yet, but imo they are tinkering on getting there.
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-135:
Bok rugby is a strange beast, for me its more about who leads the Boks than how many represents them. Compare 2003 to 2007 for example.
Must be off now folks, commitments.
Hope we can continue this tomorrow.
3 Jul 2011, 19:18 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-130: Hmm, weird questions from people who are ‘close to the Sharks’.
Academy was set up long before the Bulls and has produced many players. Players have left (Pienaar, Steyn) not due to Sharks but due to being messed around at Bok level and realising they may as well go.
Academy attracts boys from all over SA and the UK’s top 2 schools regularly make use of it in their summer (June).
Rudolph does scouting, as does Hans Scriba and Adrian Garvey, who owns a percentage, also owns Sharks’ kids – how young do you want them
Sharks are a business, with shareholders. They have won CCups recently and turned a sizeable profit as well.
Sharks PTY is run by the CEO, club structures run by the President and his council on which the CEO sits too.
Not sure the tail is wagging the dog there mate?
3 Jul 2011, 19:21 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-137: And one more thing: if you look at the brand of rugby the Vodacom Cup Sharks play, the Under Age and the big guys, it’s all the same – none of them won anything this year but they looked the same so they are def all on the same page
3 Jul 2011, 19:22 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-126:
Leadership on the park, Titman…… that’s where your problem is going to be. Leadership.
Like it was in 2008 when VM was not there.
We can revisit this issue after the S15 in 2015, OK?
3 Jul 2011, 19:26 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-136:
Cheers.
I just think winning combinations are more important, where a player in a certain position can look up at another that he is so familiar with and in a split second can tell what that other player is planning on doing- what he can expect to happen and what he should anticipate.
Getting the combinations right is key.
Players need to rely on eachother. Where fancy skills fail, there needs to be heart, guts and toughness (mental and physical) and determination and fitness to carry the team through, and a deep respect for one another.
This is why Stegmann fits Bok the team better than Louw or Daniels. The core of the Springboks can rely more and Stegmann and at the Bulls they have a deep respect for him.
The whole Bok team respects our lock-combo and the leadership. The Springboks have always been a team that relies on team work to get the job done. That is enhanced through familair partnerships when the elements of the game are broken down into discrete segments.
3 Jul 2011, 19:29 pm
@nama1(nama1)-139:
Deal.
I just wanted to point out to you that a lack of a leader figure was not the only factor that contributed to the result of 2008. And in my opinion not the most important one either.
3 Jul 2011, 19:30 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-140: 100 percent right.
99 times out of 100 you want the stable guy in your team to do the job when there is a space to fill. Same as in business.
A guy has to be EXCEPTIONAL to be able to be a maverick and slot into a squad, and even then, it can be an absolute mess.
And they need to get on with everyone else. I always pick people with good personal skills and av ability than the other way around unless it is a specific project. They are just too much hard work otherwise.
3 Jul 2011, 19:40 pm
Stormers have a very simple problem.. It is called leadership, simple as f’ng pie to analyze you don’t need any f’ng degree or masters in psychology to check the problem. Burger is NO F’ng Leader, can’t you schmucks open up your dumbass eyes?
And Coetsee and Rassie are very shaky coaches at the best of times who cannot even compare notes in the same room let alone put a winning team together
far too much conflict of f’ng interest at Stormers/WP
starting with the goddam Rupert/Burger trust in the winelands ousting Watson for the sake of the f’ng hopeless blue eyed nincompoop who should never have been given no captaincy armband ever. And ending with a stupefied set of brainless selection calls throughout the season.
Elstadt should never have played lock… ever.
Van Zyl should have captained the team or at least been leader of the forwards with JdV captaining the backs.
Van Zyl to lead, Bekker to jump in line outs not call the f’ng shots. Burger to contest breakdown and tackle and that is ALL, nothing more and NOTHING less.
Flouw to play open side, Elstadt blind side, Burger 8 or bench switching with Verneulen and Elstadt and Koster as a horses for courses option.
The best games we had this season is when Burger was OUT THE TEAM or you idiots still can’t remember that far back? Who fckd up Bulls at Loftus and Highlanders and Force in Cape Town PRIOR to the advent of the idiot with the screwloose kop as captain?
3 Jul 2011, 19:42 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-140:
Flouw and daniel are both better than Stegmann but neither will be called and neither will be choisen.
Burger the dunce got the hole shot for No.6 even though he’s not an open sides arse.
Next is Brussow who is carrying injury, and then comes Steggies who is a penalty machine and not as good as either Daniel or Louw in open play.
3 Jul 2011, 19:43 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-143: You do know who your wine masters would love to be coach, don’t you? Their prodigal son…
3 Jul 2011, 19:46 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-142:
Yeah, and let’s not forget the Bulls are the closest family of rugby players in South Africa.
It’s not my fault, I just want to point out that half the Bok run-on side will be Bulls players. That they’ve won 3 S14 titles in 4 years is no coicidence and they don’t only respect eachother, they have a lot of talent amongst them.
The way Matfield spoke of Stegmann in 2010 from the S14 to the EOTY, really tells the whole country that the “team” wants Stegmann there and not Louw for example. This is just an example. Some have said that’s because Steggies is his buddy, and buddies are looking out for buddies. I disagree, I think Matfield is the real leader in th national setup and he knows what it takes, plain and simple.
You won’t find a team player like Steggies. Remember the try that Dewald Potgieter scored against the Blues in 2009? The ball bounced loose over the Blues line after a grubber, and Steggies and Potties bolted for it. Stegmann made it to the ball first. Instead of dotting the ball down as he was already over the tryline, he plucked the ball from the air and popped it over his head to Potties to score. How many times have we seen that from players? Almost never.
I remember the try Steggies scored against the Pumas in last years Currie Cup opener from a l/o drive. He didn’t jump up and celebrate, he walked up to each player involved in the maul- all the forwards- and patted them on the chest and congratulated them.
I’m using this as an example to point out that you simply can’t buy that kind of attitude and respect.
Conversely, how many times have we seen players sign their tries in the air, and throw the ball at the crowd and make as though they were a one-man team. I’m sorry to say, but some players are just too immature to go the distance when the paw-paw hits the fan especially.
3 Jul 2011, 19:50 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-146: True words. It comes down to the Bulls being fairly homogenous. The Sharks have started playing better rugby since they all turned religious together, and I think family and faith go hand in hand at the Bulls.
I’m the least religious person on earth but it seems to bind them together.
I used to dislike the Bulls intensely but their attitude and their dedication won me over. Other teams don’t do that at all.
3 Jul 2011, 19:53 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-145: Andre Markgraaff…
3 Jul 2011, 19:54 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-144:
Skopskiet, how you have changed your tune in 4 weeks. Is it because the Bulls didn’t make the play-offs?
Are penalties the only thing you can find against Stegmann?
I already pointed out many times that both Louw and Steggies give away roughly a penalty every 30 breakdowns. Stegmann simply works much harder.
Hey, here’s a though:
You know, penalties give the opposition 3 points directly, perhaps even 7 points indirectly. mainly it is about an immediate loss of possession and some or all of your territory.
So let me ask you: What about handling errors? They can be just as damning.
Stegmann has made 4 handling errors the entire season. Louw has made 17.
So Louw was repsonsible on 13 occasion more than Stegmann for a loss in territory and possession. Is this not worthy of a mention?
Stegmann missed less tackles, broke more tackles with ball in hand- runs harder than Louw- and most importantly, he does more of everything, excpet where Louw gets the ball more in space. In other words he has demonstrated that he has the heart and fitness to deliver the biggest work rate in South Africa. You can’t argue with the fact.
basically I just want to point out how that you opinion has changed 180 over the course of a month, and that you are talking nonsense regarding penalties, it can be shown concretely to be bunk.
So really, who would listen?
3 Jul 2011, 20:01 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-147:
“I used to dislike the Bulls intensely but their attitude and their dedication won me over. Other teams don’t do that at all.”
+1
Respect. At least being “areligious” you can display an appreciation for what seems to work under the circumstances. There is some common ground that supporters (anybody) can relate to and this counts for the players too obviously. People don’t have to agree with your world view, but you can win them over with your dedication to a discipline that they admire.
3 Jul 2011, 20:03 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-149:
Statistics mean f’all Titty Titty Bang Bang
Its what ‘Transpires’ on the field of play that count.
And like hips don’t so do eyes not lie. I don’t go counting stats when my eyes tell me all I ever wanna know.
Daniela and Flouw are better as ripping open side players than Steggies, though Steggies works hard he tends to disappear till he gets caught on the wrong side of the breakdown and then its 3 points to the opposition.
Steggies and Bismark the biggest culprits at the breakdown
Daniel and Louw offer more as linking ball carriers, Steggies is simply a breakdown specialist. So if Brussow is not top game fit then its between Louw, Daniel and Steggies for open side but definitely not Burger, absolutely not.
3 Jul 2011, 20:04 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-150: Yep. That pretty much sums it up.
3 Jul 2011, 20:10 pm
“Heinrich Brüssow, a ball fetcher par excellence, should be named along with team-mate Ashley Johnson when the Springbok team for the Tri-Nations is announced on Saturday.
Brüssow will undergo medical tests when the preliminary World Cup group assembles in Cape Town on Wednesday.
He is expected to be fit to face the Wallabies and All Blacks on 23 and 30 July in Sydney and Wellington respectively.
”
(news24) …a few minutes ago.
Titman won’t like this one bit.
3 Jul 2011, 20:11 pm
@nama1(nama1)-153: My only issue with Brussow is injuries… pointless if he plays half a game
3 Jul 2011, 20:14 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-151:
Stats don’t mean “f’all”, and that’s why businesses have been built around them.
How do you say that Steggies is a penalty machine?
It’s because you are using the stats to support your statement.
Even if only a single number comparison.
I’m just pointing out that you’d better show the other side of the story. i.e. Where are the penalties conceded? And how much of these areas does each player contribute to? Etc. So it’s rubbish that Stegmann is a penalty machine.
Why not we start a new tune and say that Louw has butterfingers?
And handling error every 9 handle counts compared to an error only every 27 counts by Stegmann.
So, how many times was Louw responsible for his team losing possession and territory just due to his poor handling?
And what’s wrong with stats to point out which flyhalf kciks more accurately? Which flank misses fewer tackles, which flank bursts over the gainline more readily.
The more numbers you have, the more apparent trends become, and it was the same way last year between Steggies and Louw.
Talking about “linking” flanks is just sad.
And I’ll take a specialist over a hybrid any day of the week. Depends on the position. You want a flexible tighthead again? Or you want a specialist?
How is Steggies “just” a b/d specialist when he defends better than Louw and breaks tackle better than Louw too?
3 Jul 2011, 20:19 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-155: ATT
Is your surname Stegmann? Father, brother or perhaps THE Stegmann?
If not your obsession is unhealthy.
3 Jul 2011, 20:19 pm
Let me just put it this way:
Sorry for bringing this debate up again. But the no.6 position is where we can expect some controversy and disagreement.
I just find it fascinating that, in South Africa, where we boast about our depth in loose forwards, Burger gets an injury and now in the minds of many there is only one man fit for the job, and the rest are suddenly rubbish.
Stegmann being the 1st choice since he was 21 in a union that has 3 from 4, and has the respect of his overseas counterparts, has no respect at home (well, amongst certain). That doesn’t make sense, and people are simply being hypocrites at this point.
3 Jul 2011, 20:20 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-157: I think there are a number of great 6s in SA, each bring something else to the party.
Stegman, Daniels when he doesn’t brain **** etc etc. No point in arguing about it.
3 Jul 2011, 20:21 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-156:
I’m not going to change. And on the other thread you started it, so don’t tell me I have an unhealthy obsession. Are you obsessed with me?
I’m pointing this out because, as I mentioned above, no.6 will be an interesting choice in the next few weeks, and if people can’t complain about penalties regarding Steggies, what else do they have to complain about? So it takes a few posts to set the record straight.
3 Jul 2011, 20:23 pm
@nama1(nama1)-153:
It’s about time that Brussow gets back on track. Like Stegmann, if Brussow is fit, then he basically never has a bad game and always delivers a huge work rate.
3 Jul 2011, 20:27 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-158:
Yes, but what to do when there are 4 available for selection? It’s about combos and how the coaches plan to divide the workload/roles between players, what style they envision.
3 Jul 2011, 20:35 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-159: hey, it’s ok if you are close family or something like that, I’d probably do the same thing on here if, say, my brother played for a Super team.
3 Jul 2011, 20:36 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-161: “What style they envision”, I almost fell off my chair laughing…
Not that what you say is wrong I just have trouble imagining our 3 stooges envisioning anything beyond their navels
3 Jul 2011, 20:44 pm
@goyougoodthing2(goyougoodthing2)-163:
I just wonder how people would have reacted if we did beat Scotland and walked away with a grandslam for the first time in decades. The difference between respecting the team and calling for wholesale change was only a small handful of calls by a ref. It isn’t inconceivable that we can lose to Scotland in Scotland, you know. The point is: That team is still the same.
3 Jul 2011, 20:50 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-162:
I’m not family, I support my team, as do you, and Stegmann happens to be a Bulls player and I’m glad for it. I just think that he has a very good case, and then people want an explaination and then I have to show them exactly why their thinking about “excessive” penalties is wrong. How simple can it be?
I don’t mind responding to people, I don’t mind taking the time to answer questions, or encourage discussion.
If I feel that somebody is wrong, I supply a reason why I think so. He can either:
A) Admit he was wrong; B) Keep quiet about the matter altogether; C) Counter my argument and try to convince me that I was mistaken; D) Respond irrationally like you did.
I don’t mind too much.
3 Jul 2011, 21:09 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-165: then I worry for Stegmann.
3 Jul 2011, 21:20 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-166:
Implying that I’m a stalker?
I’ve got no bloody interest in Stegmann’s personal life. This is a blog, and people throw the most meaningless load of rubbish around here.
Here and there you find something worth reading.
I say again: I was just supplying good reasons for why this penalty-risk stigma is nonsense. I don’t mind too much, but maybe I can help some people right and have some decent conversation at the same time.
You know, when the ill-informed stop whining about penalties and other things they know little about, then maybe they can start properly appreciating the rugby talent that this country has.
4 Jul 2011, 05:16 am
Alot of meaningless posts but back to the rugby. I think its dissapointing that the stormers didnt show much heart but they were never going to beat a side which is arguably stronger than the all blacks. The only All Blacks who I would take over current Crusaders players is Mils at 15, Gear instead of Maitland (although you are not losing much either way) and Kaino / Thomson at 6. The centre combination of SBW and Fruean is certainly stronger than the current AB centre pairing which is Nonu and Smith and the Crusaders front row should be the AB front row. Unreal.
So how could you realistically expect a Stormers team who only has 4 starting Springboks (Habs, Fourie, JDV, Burger) to compete with a almost full strength international team. Coming from a realistic Stormers fan, I do feel their was alot of blind patriotic faith coming from the Keo writers misleading the public into thinking the Stormers somehow should start as favourites.
4 Jul 2011, 07:09 am
Big Match Temperament lacking? Maybe. Big Match Tactics lacking? Definitely.
4 Jul 2011, 07:35 am
CHOKERS!!!!!!!!
4 Jul 2011, 12:38 pm
Christchurch has 378,000 people – little more than a village. Year in and year out they have the cream of nz rugby players and have dominated the super rugby competition. Currently I would say 13 of their team would start for the ABs.
Now what I would like to know, given their small crowds of roughly 15 to 18 thousand, is how they can afford such a talented squad year after year. They have a number of the best players in world rugby on their books.
What is going on? Can someone please explain?
4 Jul 2011, 12:40 pm
I would love to know where the money is coming from that allows the crusaders to gather together the cream of nz rugby?
4 Jul 2011, 12:45 pm
@Beeno(Beano)-172:
The Top 150 rugby players in NZ are all contracted to the NZRFU. They are the paymasters.
4 Jul 2011, 13:08 pm
@cane(cane)-173:
Okay then on what basis are they distributed? How come the crusaders get the cream?
4 Jul 2011, 20:12 pm
@Beeno(Beeno)-174:
Players who become “cream” at the Crusaders often were run of the mill in other franchises. It wasn’t until they were exposed to the Crusaders ethos that they achieved their potential.
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