Blacks cut senior boys
10 Jul 2011
The All Blacks have named a Tri-Nations squad featuring some notable absentees.
The inclusion of Highlanders lock Jarrad Hoeata is dominating the back pages in New Zealand, but the players not in the mix are more interesting. Among those are men previously favoured by Henry – Joe Rokocoko, Neemia Tialata and Luke McAlister.
Furthermore, the duo of Cory Jane and Sitiveni Sivivatu only make the squad as cover for Isaia Toeava (hip), Hosea Gear (hamstring) and Israel Dagg (thigh muscle). The five have, however, done little to aid their cause this season.
With Tony Woodcock still injured, the Crusaders’ impressive prop Wyatt Crockett is included in the group. Corey Flynn, Richard Kahui and Piri Weepu also return after injury ruled them out of contention for last year’s Grand Slam tour to the northern hemisphere. Crusaders wing Zac Guildford receives a recall on the back of a good Super Rugby campaign.
Henry has backed Colin Slade as his deputy to flyhalf Dan Carter, despite two broken jaws forcing him to miss the bulk of the season. This is the most worrying position for the All Blacks, with a massive gulf in quality between the incumbent and his replacements.
Henry said he placed a high premium on winning the Tri-Nations, even though the World Cup is a primary focus.
‘The Tri Nations also remains an important competition for the team this year. We are proud of the record we have achieved over the years and the fact that we have held the Bledisloe Cup since 2003 and it is crucial as we look to build towards the Rugby World Cup,’ he said.
All Black Tri-Nations squad -
Backs: Mils Muliaina, Israel Dagg, Isaia Toeava, Hosea Gear, Zac Guildford, Richard Kahui, Conrad Smith, Sonny Bill Williams, Ma’a Nonu, Dan Carter, Colin Slade, Jimmy Cowan, Andy Ellis, Piri Weepu
Forwards: Kieran Read, Richie McCaw (c), Jerome Kaino, Adam Thomson, Liam Messam, Brad Thorn, Ali Williams, Sam Whitelock, Jarrad Hoeata, Ben Franks, Owen Franks, John Afoa, Tony Woodcock, Keven Mealamu, Corey Flynn, Andrew Hore
Injury replacements: Wyatt Crockett, Cory Jane, Sitiveni Sivivatu, Ben Smith.
243 Comments
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10 Jul 2011, 12:47 pm
Olivier is one-dimensional and gets completely shut-down at test level. An 18 year old Manu Tuilagi ate him alive in 2009 for Leicester and he hadn’t even played club rugby before. Wynand looks good at S15 level because the defences are nowhere near as tight, but has always struggled when making the step up.
10 Jul 2011, 12:54 pm
@Brigadier Van Zyl(Brigadier Van Zyl)-11:
my feeling is sbw is gonna let him down in the end, but then again wynand olivier, oh i’m sorry, i meant to say ma’a nonu’s not exactly gonna lift him up either.
so ja, combinations, combinations, combinations…
10 Jul 2011, 13:04 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-100:
Yeah, Bekker will probably make sure SA dominate the lineouts for a bit longer . Not 100% convinced though.
IMO:
best all rounder lock in pro era: John Eales (no-one comes even close)
best line out lock- Victor M
best “enforcer” lock : Martin johnson.
10 Jul 2011, 13:11 pm
@JL1(JL1)-24:
i’ve said the same thing to friends when watching their games a number of times. and theyr’e doing it on the lh and th side often. you can shove forward so much better when you dont have one of your arms raised for the bind. perhaps we should watch some of their games again to see if theyr’e doing it with their other arm also and not binding to the hooker either.
three guys pushing forward with their arms by their sides? maybe thats ‘pushing’ it but maybe not.
10 Jul 2011, 13:13 pm
SA coaches have sh’t for brains much like these dubious expatriated Aussie wannabe money grubbers do. The twat Olivier was JW’s stand in back up to JdV at 12. Had it not been for EJ’s influence White would have played him at 12 in 2007 and not Steyn and we would have lost the WC. Olivier is the most uselessly overrated non happened excuse of an international center we ever produced, much like Pretorius and Jorrie or Helgaard Muller. Never produced fckall in any test he’s ever played and there been plenty enough to count. Olivier and Johann Muller through first two non international palookas I drop and next is Kankowski. Jacobs, DeJongh, Jantjies, Ebersohn, Sadie, Taute, Hollenbach, Le Grange, Mapoe, Uys, Venter,, in fact almost anybody ahead of that dismal dysfunctional doos of a non effect center Olivier any day of any week.
10 Jul 2011, 13:22 pm
@WOLFMAN21(WOLFMAN21)-28: \
yes, but so did clive woodward. i’m not saying he’s as good as woodward, but i’m just saying…
10 Jul 2011, 13:40 pm
@bryce_in_oz(bryce_in_oz)-32:
yes, but as the old saying goes – ‘stats alone don’t paint the prettiest pictures’. maybe he’s just SO 1 dimensionaly good at his game and his game alone (running his meters, breaking his line, assisting others to break the line and making the most tackles) that he loses the ‘multi-dimensionally’ complex 15 man team game plot dynamic? maybe thats him in a nutshell more often than not?
in regards the 12 and 13 centres, should the one be a work horse and the other a show pony? or should both be a bit of work horse and a bit of show pony when and where neccesary?
but yes, who should play his position instead then, hmmmmm?
10 Jul 2011, 13:42 pm
This Squad is short on specialist wing threequarters.
Looks like Nonu is destined to a 11 or 14.
10 Jul 2011, 13:47 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-45:
have you been drinking a lot last night? and if not, have you been drinking today?
10 Jul 2011, 14:02 pm
@poppa69(poppa69)-97:
maybe this is his version of throwing a bigtime dummy to the rest of the world? maybe the players from last year is his version of an ‘injury’ free list?
maybe he’s holding his cards real, real close and will play his killer hand when the pot is really stacked?
maybe?
(thoughts of kenny rodgers – ‘know when to hold em’ going thru the mind)…
10 Jul 2011, 14:23 pm
@cane(cane)-108:
if that because of sbw, then sbw, like jonah lomu before him, my gut says is gonna turn out to be one massive super sized piece of hype this wc. and, the people for whom it matters will, like the song says ‘not believe the hype, cos its a sequel’….because when it matters most, like jonah, my gut says he wont deliver.
maybe they shoud have one start and the other on the bench in the semi?
10 Jul 2011, 14:32 pm
@he’s not the messiah. he’s a very naughty boy!(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-107:
Oh I agree… I rate not one of RSA’s centre’s in that watered down list… but as I’ve stated… if you don’t rate WO (which I don’t)… THEN WHO THE FARK DO YOU THINK SHOULD BE THERE (too many cannot name them)…
The cupboard is bare in RSA at 12… La Grange probably the best of a shite bunch outside of Frans Steyn…
There’s a guy like De Jong that many are punting… the dumb Fack cannot even pass to his left…
10 Jul 2011, 14:33 pm
WO still taking up space on Keo? Mind boggling, I say.
@Michael(mikeybrass)-78:
“We are the country who has produced the likes of Michael du Plessis etc at inside centre.”
I’m sure you can name a few of the “etceteras.” Three names will be in order.
No matter who the centres are or how good they are, if you employ people like FdP and MS as your half back pair, the ball will be up in the air more often than not instead of than through the hands thus rendered the rest of the back line ineffective and living of crumbs.
10 Jul 2011, 14:36 pm
1.Woodcock
2.Mealamu
3.O.Franks
4.Whitelock
5.Thorn
6.Kaino
7.McCaw
8.Read
9.Weepu
10.Carter
11.Toeava
12.Nonu
13.Smith
14.Gear
15.Muliaina
16.Hore
17.Afoa
18.Williams
19.Thomson
20.Cowan
21.Slade
22.Bill-Williams
10 Jul 2011, 14:46 pm
@bryce_in_oz(bryce_in_oz)-112:
I agree, his passing to his left is appalling for someone who plays at this level. But he can work on that aspect of his game. Passing is a general problem amongst most, if not all, back line players in SA. No wonder the Brumbies took Clyde Rathbone aside for a whole year just to coach him some basic rugby skills, like passing. Did you see some of those passes that Cooper threw yesterday? Brilliant.
Besides his passing, de Jongh is the most explosive of all the SA centres, of that there is little doubt. That makes you the dumb FACK. Poephol.
10 Jul 2011, 14:51 pm
They should try Lambie at inside centre. Play maker outside Steyn and takes the pressure off of Steyn, more time. Gives the backs another kicking option. He is a sound defender and snipes through gaps quite well.
10 Jul 2011, 14:54 pm
Here’s players that won’t make the cut for world cup squads but could possibly beat all but a few teams at WC:
Crocket (Nz)
Strauss (Sa)
Mujati (Zim Sa)
Donelly (Nz)
Jack (Nz)
Flouw (Sa)
Deysel (Sa)
Vermeulen (Sa)
Sarel Pretorias (Sa)
Nick Evans (Nz)
Sivivatu (Nz)
Brad Barrit (Sa)
Jauzian (Fra)
Maitland (Nz)
Jane (Nz)
10 Jul 2011, 14:55 pm
@nama1(nama1)-113:
maybe fdp and ms know better than to pass it to wo?
its a lottery either way.
10 Jul 2011, 14:56 pm
@bryce_in_oz(bryce_in_oz)-112: Bryce,
Lambie could play 12 and play damn well there as well. His defence is superb and at least our 13 will see some ball.
I also don’t rate Olivier at all. With Lambie at 12 and JdJ 12 on this tour we would do well. But unfortunately looks like Olivier will start and so will Morne. I personally would have had Morne on the bench for this tour and start Lambie at fh. If not at fh then play Morne at fh and bring in Lambie at inside centre.
10 Jul 2011, 14:56 pm
@Puma(Puma)-119: Meant – JdJ at 13
10 Jul 2011, 14:58 pm
@ CSI, Lambie is way over rated, people 4get how he cracked under pressure eoyt, I agree he is good but not ready for starting posistion WC
10 Jul 2011, 15:00 pm
So my backs would be.
15 – Aplon
14 – Basson
13 – JdJ
12 – Lambie
11 – Mvovo
10 – Morne
Have Morne at fh cause he will start.
10 Jul 2011, 15:02 pm
Guru, not for RWC, just for this 3Ns. Experience against Nonu and SBW and also against Giteau and co will hold him in good stead. RWC I’d have de Villiers and de Jongh.
10 Jul 2011, 15:02 pm
@RugbyGuru_0_(RugbyGuru_0_)-121: He only messed up with kicking at goal. But his overall play was superb. Just look at his defence compared to Morne and Olivier? He covers his channel brilliant. Also finds the gaps don’t just run bash into players and most of all he passes.
Take away the goal kicks from Lambie and then rate him. He would get 9 out of 10 everytime.
10 Jul 2011, 15:04 pm
@CSI:Rugby(CSI:Rugby)-116:
well he’s not too much shorter or lighter than wo, given the jake white era standing policy (thats never been repealed) of ‘size and bulk trumps all else’. so maybe they should.
10 Jul 2011, 15:04 pm
@CSI:Rugby(CSI:Rugby)-116: Jeez missed your post but I AGREE. Play Lambie at inside centre.
10 Jul 2011, 15:05 pm
@ Puma, what does Lambie offer at 12? Nothing special realy, iconsidering the squad touring, u would have to go with WO and JdJ! How well did lambie play against bulls and crusaders? How well did he kick eoyt? Who threw the intercept try that cost the sharks the game in play offs?
10 Jul 2011, 15:09 pm
@ CSI, I bet SBW and nonu will be licking there lips with the prospect of playing against steyn at flyhalf and lambie at inside centre, defensively its just not sollid enough.
10 Jul 2011, 15:12 pm
Lambie should be considered at 15 and 15 only if at all in WC squad behind F. Steyn and / or Aplon.
Boks brains trust is non existent.
Pienaar and James are both better running 10′s than M. Steyn
best two 9′s in the country currently are actually Duvenhage and Pretorius, not Pienaar or FdP or Hougaard or Mcleod.
At center we should be playing new talents or at least combining the likes of De Jongh with Jacobs or bring in Taute at 13, relying on Olivier is doing the same fckup idiocy thing you been doing for 6 long years and expecting different results. Even Einstein would have told you it ain’t gonna happen ever.
Jantjies can play 10 perhaps in time to come or even slot in at 12 at a push, but not against the likes of Aussie or NZ. Neither can Lambie.
M. Steyn or F. Steyn can both cover 12 or 15 and play a play making 10 like Pienaar or James. And then play a go to scrummy like Duvenhage or Pretorius to bust open the gaps with quick efficient service, something neither Mcleod nor Hougaard can do. Hougaard better at wing or even 13 at a push partnering De Jongh, that would get the poppeies dancing. Imagine this
Pretorius / Duvenhage
Pienaar / James
Basson / Mvovo
De Jongh
Hougaard
Aplon
Lambie / Steyn
10 Jul 2011, 15:12 pm
@RugbyGuru_0_(RugbyGuru_0_)-127: He messed up once with that intercept try. Every player this season in all teams had done something wrong in the 80min.
Lambie is a great talent. He is equally good at 10/12 and 15.
WO?? JdJ would never see any ball nor would our wings. Have never rated WO sorry. He is okay playing Bulls style rugby. Bash it up and go to ground. Just never passes. No we can’t have him at inside centre. BUT we will for the away leg of 3Nations and that is a pity.
Lambie at 12 and JdJ at 13 would be perfect for this tour. I would prefer to see Lambie given a chance at fh. Give the kicks to Ruan. But that won’t happen either cause Morne who can kick well but that is it will be playing fh. So with Morne at fh and WO at inside centre JdJ and our wings will see no ball.
10 Jul 2011, 15:13 pm
JdV and JF has 2b the 1st centres at WC with JdJ and Fransie covering if need be. These people that want to start youngsters in WC showpiece against the elite players of the world is out of there mind, there’s only a few youngsters that can step ala frans steyn and jpp
10 Jul 2011, 15:15 pm
@RugbyGuru_0_(RugbyGuru_0_)-127: Lambie played well against the Bulls. Remember our last game at Loftus?
Btw a small tip. Just look to your very far right of the box to the post you are answering back, there is a arrow there, just click on that and it goes straight to the box below where you type back your comment. The posters number and name you answer back to will come up in your post.
10 Jul 2011, 15:16 pm
Guru, I’m sure they will, but as mentioned above, it’s purely on experience alone, this squad selected does not offer much in the way of back line defense. Remember how Mauger took the pressure off of Spencer and Carter when playing at 12? Lambie is a good player with the potential to be great. Nothing to lose playing him at 12. More experience the better.
10 Jul 2011, 15:17 pm
@nama1(nama1)-115:
Olivier?
OK, look, I’ve read on this thread that WO is a turnstile and a few other things.
It’s ok, I suppose. He isn’t popular around here.
But that post is so untrue.
Wynand Olivier’s passing is just flawless. Seen many tries for the Bulls come in off a perfect long pass without him breaking much speed, and judging the distance leading the outside backs with 100% precision and stable spin and flat-enough trajectory. Both left and right. What the heck is wrong with his left pass? He’s right handed. Where did you get this from?
You can hate WO for whatever reason, his hairstyle, his looks, his home union, his predictable inside break attempts..whatever. One thing one cannot accuse him of is a poor pass. Watch video highlights of him putting the outside backs away for the past couple of years. It’s flawless.
10 Jul 2011, 15:18 pm
@he’s not the messiah. he’s a very naughty boy!(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-118:
Hahaha.
You may just have a point.
@Puma(Puma)-119:
We’ll have to settle for Hougaard, MS and WO as our inside backs and Hondo can then come on here and tell everybody how useless JdJ, Aplon, Mvovo and Adi (as a replacement) were in the match.
10 Jul 2011, 15:18 pm
@ Puma, we touring with our 3rd team, the best would be to keep it close and play kicking game. We not going to run Aussies and all blacks off their feet with our team. Our back three will see ball because Aus and Nz will not kick the ball into touch then they can counter from the back. Aplon, bjorn and mvovo are dangerous from counter attack
10 Jul 2011, 15:19 pm
@he’s not the messiah. he’s a very naughty boy!(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-109:
Not at all. I’m always sober. I mentioned that in regards to Adi’s selection. Not ideal, I agree, he’s retiring. But look at the situation you’re dealing with at the Sharks. Seriously, there are 5 outside centres I would rather take on tour.
10 Jul 2011, 15:19 pm
well ******* me sweetly sideways…it looks like tacitus’s ‘cyclical peak theory’ of teams peaking in cycles of about five or seven years may be right after all. their best chance to win a title is supposed to be somewhere close to the peak point of their cycle or they dont win at all, according to him. anything outside of that is just exceptions that prove the general rule (again, according to him).
this from the new zealand herald:
Rugby: Crusaders may be rocked by post-final shake-up
By Gregor Paul
5:30 AM Sunday Jul 10, 2011
One of the great sporting stories of the age may have a sad epilogue with the Crusaders likely to lose some players no longer willing to live in Christchurch.
Sonny Bill Williams is seriously considering both the Blues and Chiefs. The world’s best off-loader saw his inner city apartment damaged by the February 22 quake and, with his mum in Auckland, the city where he grew up, the prospect of returning ‘home’ is appealing.
Robbie Fruean has also been affected by the quake and the Hurricanes are desperate to take him back. He left in 2010 ranked behind Conrad Smith at the Hurricanes. But, with Ma’a Nonu having moved on and depth clearly important, his former franchise are hopeful he’ll return.
Zac Guildford and Sean Maitland both ran into town in their bare feet on the day of the second shake as their respective partners were in the CBD. The former, despite being troubled by the volatility of the city, says he wants to stay. Maitland is a Waikato boy and the arrival of Dave Rennie at the Chiefs could have a bearing on where the flying wing ends up.
Kieran Read has had a hard job persuading his wife to stay in Christchurch – she and their young daughter spent time in Pukekohe during the campaign.
But, despite the fact the Blues would love to sign him, he’s another who says he wants to guts it out.
“I definitely want to be here,” says Read. “You never know what Mother Nature is going to throw at you but I’m sure, when the city can rebuild, it’s going to be pretty cool. It’s still a great place to live.
“It’s hard when you are away because you leave behind family and you know what they’re going through. We had got used to it and it was sweet but then last week [major after] shocks knocks you back down to earth.”
Tom Marshall, the Tasman and Crusaders fullback, is being targeted by the Blues and is thought likely to go.
When Israel Dagg is fit, he will take back the No15 jersey whereas the versatility within the Blues means Marshall could see more game time at fullback than he will at the Crusaders.
The worry for the Crusaders is that now that the campaign has ended, many of their players may collapse emotionally. They have been amazingly resolute and focused for the last five months and their mental strength remarkable.
They haven’t moaned nor found excuses and it has been inspirational to see a group galvanise themselves so effectively and powerfully. But the reality is there will be a comedown.
The toll will tell on some who have been living in houses in disrepair or spending large periods of time with their families in other places. They have done it hard and even the most committed among them will not relish having to repeat their schedule next season. That’s the key problem. Having certainty around the future of AMI Stadium would be helpful. Knowing they have a permanent home again would remove much of the stress – as the prospect of shifting around the country again to play home games is hard to relish.
Even knowing they have a permanent ‘temporary’ home in the region would probably be enough for most players so they can see they won’t be packing up and heading off somewhere every week of the season.
But even then, some players and their families simply don’t want to be in Christchurch. Rugby-wise they desperately want to be with the Crusaders but some are going to have to balance that against that the desires of partners and children.
end.
if most of this happens will the crusaders still be the crusaders next season? it’ll be blackie’s 4 year in charge proper, and no titles to show for it.
10 Jul 2011, 15:21 pm
@ Puma, thanks for tip buddy but I don’t see any arrows or anything. I’m posting from my blackberry so maybe that the reason?
10 Jul 2011, 15:22 pm
@nama1(nama1)-135: Probably….hehehe.
Jeez would like to see Lambie and JdJ play together in this away leg of the 3Nations.
We won’t though bud. It will be never pass Olivier at inside centre and kick it up the whole time Morne at fh.
Look Morne kicking at posts is great but that is about it.
10 Jul 2011, 15:23 pm
@RugbyGuru_0_(RugbyGuru_0_)-139: No problems. Thought you were working from a laptop.
10 Jul 2011, 15:25 pm
@RugbyGuru_0_(RugbyGuru_0_)-127:
“…what does Lambie offer at 12?>
- good eye for a gap.
- good defence.
- good kicking boot out of hand.
- good distribution skills.
- good reading of play.
- good acceleration from a standing start.
- 1st choice or back up kicker to the poles.
Apart from defence, you can’t accuse WO of any of the above.
10 Jul 2011, 15:26 pm
@he’s not the messiah. he’s a very naughty boy!(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-138: Plum spoke to the wrong player then…hehehe. Nonu has signed with the Blues, he should have spoken to Robbie…hehe.
Only joking. Really pleased Nonu is not coming to Sharks. We have to play our youngsters. That way we go forward.
10 Jul 2011, 15:27 pm
Look I do think lambie is good and after this WC, he will be my 1st choice but for now, he must soak up the atmosphere and learn as much as possible from the senior players. Guru over and out
10 Jul 2011, 15:28 pm
@nama1(nama1)-142: Yip spot on. Now with another player like JdJ with a good eye for the gap he and Lambie would play well together.
JdJ gonna be wasted with Olivier at inside centre. Olivier hardly passes.
10 Jul 2011, 15:29 pm
We talkning tri nations here not WC
For tri nations I would have played following prospects
Viljoen, Taute, Aplon, Basson, Mvovo, R. Eberhson, De Jongh, Sadie, S. Eberhson, Pienaar, Pretorius, Duvenhage and maybe Lambie and Jantjies, though I’d play it something like this
Viljoen / Aplon
Aplon
Hougaard / Taute
De Jongh
Basson
Pienaar
Pretorius
Bench
Taute / Lambie
Ebersohn / Sadie
Duvenhage
10 Jul 2011, 15:29 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-137:
jeez, i think i would have rathered you’d told me you were drinking in that case. hehe…
10 Jul 2011, 15:30 pm
@RugbyGuru_0_(RugbyGuru_0_)-144: Cheers buddy.
10 Jul 2011, 15:30 pm
JDJ can’t even pass grade 3! wat nog van ‘n rugby bal?? make him a winger!
10 Jul 2011, 15:35 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-146: They not there Skop. No use thinking about the ifs.
Who would you play from the players that are selected for the away leg?
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