Substance needed from Spies
16 Aug 2011
RYAN VREDE writes that Pierre Spies owes it to himself and the Springboks to realise his immense potential.
Forty one caps into his Test career and Spies is yet to dispel lingering doubts about his aptitude. His inconsistency has undermined his cause most, with glimpses of the player he could be routinely interjected by infuriating mediocrity.
That player was again on show at Kings Park against the Wallabies on Saturday evening. Spies was superb until a collective and stark decrease in potency, ushered in by a lack of match conditioning, diluted his threat. He carried powerfully in general play and was explosive off the back of a strong scrum (prior to Jannie du Plessis’ replacement). His physicality at the collisions on attack and, usually, defence, was immense, the former driving him through the hit and generating attacking momentum for his side, while the latter played a central role in the Springboks’ defensive solidity (for the bulk of the contest).
Yet a poor impostor has consistently reported for Springboks duty. There remains deep rooted concerns about his inability to impose himself in tight games on attack. Defensively he lacks any discernible mongrel, trademark characteristics of Duane Vermeulen and Willem Alberts, the two candidates most often offered as alternatives. This despite being physically superior to both. This suggests a flaw in technique and mentality, two crucial components of a dominant defender.
Yet Springboks coach Peter de Villiers remains a believer, and he is not alone, my sense being that a large portion of the South African rugby fraternity habour hopes that the player they believe has the capacity to be a match winner will surface with some sort of consistency.
Forty Tests is more than enough time to make an absolute judgement on a player, but Spies has undoubtedly benefited from cameos which have kept faith from fading. He reminds me of mercurial South African cricketer Herschelle Gibbs, who would endure a torrid run on form, but, with the axe looming, would produce an innings of such class, such impossible brilliance, that the memory of his preceding mediocrity was swiftly erased.
A fine and dynamic player, consistently eluded Gibbs, and in this regard Spies is the Springboks’ incarnation of him. A stern decision was taken on the Gibbs at the end of his career. Selectors grew tired of the increasing rarity of the manifestation of Gibbs’ supreme talent. Spies needs to string together a series dominant performances or face a similar fate. We cannot continue to gorge ourselves on hope. We need some meat on the bone. Spies must show himself to be a player of substance.
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90 Comments
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16 Aug 2011, 11:07 am
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-25: I’ve had quite enough of your utter rudeness my friend. Please bear in mind that you cannot simply say the first insulting thing that comes to mind simply because you feel brave behind your keyboard. Check yourself.
16 Aug 2011, 11:07 am
@Ryan(Ryan)-50: hey relax Ryan…. it seems that other people also have opinions regarding other people …. like most of us have… like you have of a player
relax… we know it’s only a blog….
16 Aug 2011, 11:11 am
@Staal(Staal)-52: I don’t have an issue with opinion provided it is an informed one. I do have an issue with utter bad manners and getting personal and there’s too much of that on this blog.
16 Aug 2011, 11:12 am
@Papoose(papaown)-38:
I guess you are too intellegent to debate this with me. We’ll just forget about Vermeulen being a fetcher by trade and playing forward like one, and ignore that you probably live somewhere in the Cape.
16 Aug 2011, 11:13 am
spies is at his best with two bruiser loosies like schalk and juan tackling like demons and hitting rucks for fun. as soon as alberts/schalk or juan are ready to join spies and brussouw we’ll have better balance. but i still think our best loose trio is to start with brussouw, juan and schalk, and birng spies on second half for one of schalk or juan. brussouw in 50 mins showed us how important he is to the bok cause.
16 Aug 2011, 11:13 am
@Ryan(Ryan)-53: ok, no problem. point taken.
16 Aug 2011, 11:16 am
@munkiboi(munkiboi)-55:
Spot on. Only thing I’m worried about is Burger hasn’t played 8 for a long time now. He is a MUST start though. If they decided that he won’t be at 8, then I think he must start ahead of Juan Smith.
Hopefully that loose-trio you mention though comes through for us. Not that big on Spies as an impact player (would rather go for the physical Alberts) but would be a good balance maybe.
16 Aug 2011, 11:18 am
@hendrikp(hendrikp)-45:
He could if assigned to do it.
Remember that cornerflagging is not about tackling the guy out into touch, but more about drifting behind the defensive line to assist tackles and to cover potential linebreaks.
Burger can tackle with both shoulders, better than anyone, and is ideal for this job.
And making tackles and assisting collisions is what a nr8 is all about.
16 Aug 2011, 11:23 am
Ryan ek lees hierdie blog baie. Ek geniet die happe tussen persoonlikhede. Jou rugbykennis laat net veel te wense oor. As die Keo groep enige visie het, sal hulle agterkom party van hierdie manne wat kommentaar lewer weet meer as julle en help eintlik jou maandelikse salaris betaal. Ek lees eerder Tacticus, Grant, Xhosakid ens. se kommentaar as jou verbale twak. Ten minste erken hulle hulle blou bul en wp liefdes. Jy is niks meer as ‘n “glorified comment” op hierdie blog nie. Almal lag net vir jou. Erken net jy is ook ‘n een oog ondersteuner, dan respekteer almal jou dalk meer. Op die oomblik is jy ‘n patetiese joernalis.
Groete Christo
16 Aug 2011, 11:26 am
@willievz(willievz)-58:
Rugby is instinctive. You say they could be assigned to do that, but Burger is at his best up front making big tackles and slowing down opposition ball. I’d take that risk at the World Cup though.
I’m not talking about where a player can play. I’m talking about where he is most at home. His best position. We are missing something when we play someone like Danie Rossouw for example at number-8. Using Rossouw as an example. He played really well at the last World Cup, but he played like a blindside/lock forward.
The best balance would be with the 4 that I mentioned (Spies, Koster, Kankowski & Kolisi) as nr. 8. Kolisi at this stage for the future of course.
16 Aug 2011, 11:27 am
@munkiboi(munkiboi)-55: who you gonna play @ 8? Schalla? Daai man hettie skills nie
, hy kannie loop en chappies kou gelykie….
16 Aug 2011, 11:29 am
@vlam(vlam)-59: PdV is that you? I always suspected you should have communicated in Afrikaans, so eloquent.
16 Aug 2011, 11:34 am
@Ryan(Ryan)-62: Now you getting sucked into the mud as well.
We should be able to debate our differences without any personal attack, clever people would argue that once you go to that level, you actually have nothing to say.
16 Aug 2011, 11:35 am
@hendrikp(hendrikp)-60:
Instinct is fine, but you need structure around that instinct since rugby is a team sport.
Schalk can still play up front making those hits, because a nr8 needs to make tackles and slow opposition ball, especially in the early phases.
Burger already plays like a nr8 in many respects, and makes a lot of tackles, simply because he already anticipates the point of contact so expertly.
He does not play the game of an opensider, I am sure you will agree there.
But you are right, I don’t think he wants to play nr8. And I can’t see why not, it will benefit the team tremendously.
If Burger makes the hit as the opensider on first phase it means he is out of play for the second and potentially the third phase. If he assists the first phase tackle, he is still free to contribute on second and third phase defense. He should relish this challenge.
16 Aug 2011, 11:38 am
@capebull(capebull)-63: You are clutching at straws and you know it. If you can’t differentiate between a personal attack and mild humour im sorry for you.
16 Aug 2011, 11:47 am
@willievz(willievz)-64:
Most insightful debate I’ve had with anyone on Keo so far. I’ll give you that.
Just think as a number-8 you need someone who is instinctively more of a runner then a defender. Which is why I mentioned those 4. Someone who can also open things up from the back of the scrum like Spies did on Saturday. Just don’t see Vermeulen doing that for example, while Schalk picks it up and runs it at the first guy he sees. Don’t get me wrong, I rate Burger as at the very least in the top-3 Springboks of all-time. Would still start him as number-8 in this World Cup.
Returning kicks has become such an important part of the game that I think being a number-8 is becoming a specialist position. You pretty much almost need someone who can play fullback.
But outside of that you make good points.
16 Aug 2011, 12:05 pm
@hendrikp(hendrikp)-41:
Fully agree if one is looking at the role of a TRUE no.8 but be fair there hasnt been a TRUE 8 of substance for a very long time.The type of 8 who is a hybrid of a blindside flank with genuine speed and skills of a decent inside back. There have been flashes after Zinzan like Ron Cribb,Bobby Skinstad,Joe van Niekerk,Imanol Harinodiquoy and recently Sergio Parisse. But they are few and far between and they are very very brittle physically.(The body structure-big,fast which mostly has that top heavy symmetrical build)
And in recent years due to that and their inconsistency of performances & health there has been a move to the more conventional,bulkier,less erroneous loosie at the 8 position who is principle is more suited to blindside.Test rugby also has been based more on defence that proactive-ness on attack especially in relation to 8 position.
Think Razor Robertson,So’oialo,Kefu,Cronje,Rossouw,Collins,Picamoles, etc….Same of Vermuelen,Alberts etc played or made their reputations as blindsides then moved to 8.Even Kieran Read-who is the pre-eminent 8 in the world right now but he isnt what you would call as “racehorse” even though he is pretty well skilled.
The quintessential 8 is an endangered species.
16 Aug 2011, 12:08 pm
In this instance I agree with Ryan.
We all know Spies has all the potential to become one of the game’s greatest, and consistency will go a long way in becoming that player.
Last weekend was a start, let’s hope we see more of that from Spies.
16 Aug 2011, 12:10 pm
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-67:
True that. How great it would be if we had the advantage of having a ‘quintessential 8′ though. Think Koster maybe? If he cuts out the mistakes he’s probably the best running loose-forward we’ve got. Found more holes in Super rugby this season then any of the backs besides Aplon probably.
Plus of course he brings all those instinctive skills of a number-8 that I spoke of
16 Aug 2011, 12:18 pm
@hendrikp(hendrikp)-69:
We can dream.Kankowski as well.But the way we play in SA those types of 8′s will never flourish.
16 Aug 2011, 12:22 pm
Momentum is key in the first 20min and again Spies and Habana let us down. Spies missed a crucial tackle and knocked on and Habana is still running off his line without skill to back it up. They are both STILL holding the team back
16 Aug 2011, 12:24 pm
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-70:
True that. I’m hoping that will change next year though. We need to open it up a little if we’re going to consistently start beating Australia and especially New Zealand.
We’ve got the players to run them ragged. We just unfortunately turn them into machines as soon as they hit Currie Cup level.
Ebersohn brothers, Sadie, de Jongh, Pietersen, Lambie, F Steyn. All players capable of playing a fast-paced game where we move the ball around a little. Would personally of course start Ruan Pienaar next year as I’ve said previously. Might not have the Hougaard mongrel but he’s more inclined to try something.
16 Aug 2011, 12:25 pm
@Bok fan(Bok fan)-71:
Maybe you’re mistaking Spies for Danie Rossouw. Spies was fantastic in the first half.
16 Aug 2011, 12:27 pm
@willievz(willievz)-64: Being saying that for years, always a pity when a player doesnt agree on a move that would suit them and the team
16 Aug 2011, 12:33 pm
The best no eight is Joe van Niekerk – by quite a distance…
A pity we let him go…
16 Aug 2011, 12:33 pm
@hendrikp(hendrikp)-73: Watch again, missed a crucial tackle that was a line break and when we first started gelling he knocked on. Admit he had a decent second 50min but there are other guys with all round games that should be ahead of him. I hope the injured trio of Schalk, Smith and Alberts are back in time for the WC with Brussow at 6, then Ill be confident.
Agree Danie had a shocker, Ive always said hes a lock and not a loosie
16 Aug 2011, 14:23 pm
Were we watching the same game – Joel Stransky opined that this was a rousing performance by Spies – and I quote: “his best game in 3 years”.
I’m going with Stransky on this one 100% Ryan, not you.
16 Aug 2011, 14:23 pm
@Papoose(papaown)-47:
You can never judge something like that after one game. He should be given a few games at Super and Currie Cup level first to make a proper call.
No I still think hw would be a great wing!
16 Aug 2011, 14:24 pm
Get Spies back on the “juice”!, cos he’s been piss poor as a clean player!
16 Aug 2011, 14:25 pm
sheesh…
comparing Spies to Zinzan is like comparing noughts-and-crosses to chess…
Not only does spies not impose his mighty fine physical form on a game… (except for an above average game on saturday) he certainly does not have the skill set of Zinzan Brooke…
comparing the two just illustrates how ordinary Spies really is…
Hell Spies frustrates me… he could and should be an all time great… but he could use some of the yster Gio Aplon has in his heart to replace the marshmallow Pierre Spies has in his…
16 Aug 2011, 15:44 pm
@hendrikp(hendrikp)-72:
Mate i hear you but its not going to change anytime soon as long as you hear rhetoric like”playing towards our traditional strengths” etc which is most of the times used as a cop-out at employing ultra conservative gameplan. And as long as you have rabid fans and even worse media contigent-once the going gets tough,always revert back to old ways.Its ingrained in our national psyche. You only just have to look at lower levels etc
We do have the talent and athlete to play a wider more expansive gameplan but fact of the matter is we are unlikely to fully embrace it. A hybrid of the 2 can be achieved by something has to give and we wont give on the traditional mentality.
16 Aug 2011, 15:55 pm
@Bill Reyts(Gumboots)-75:
Fact is we didnt let him go,his contract in Northampton was torn up in 07′ as he wasnt fit enough to undertake it-where he was going through period where he was perenially injured.No one wanted to give him a contract due to that in early 08′ he was without a union.
The Lions proceeded to taking a chance on him-Loffie Eloff signed him up on a short term superrugby contract in 2008,played a few games where he was ok.Then Pdiv plucked him for relative obscurity that year and selected him for Bok squad and then started him in Dunedin Test where we pulled off historic win….He was immense that day Joe, then he proceeded to negotiate contract while on tour and he signed for Toulon knowing overseas policy without telling Bok management nor Lions who had told him that talks off Bok contract & provincial contract were to beginning at end of 3N.He took the money when SA took a chance on him both provincially and nationally.
He left us in the lurch,period.He is happy in the South of France-good for him but he displayed mercenary type behaviour. Good player indeed but he made his bed.
16 Aug 2011, 16:44 pm
@vlam(vlam)-59: Mooi geskryf Vlam. Ek stem heeltemaal saam met jou – ek lees die blog elke dag en lees veel eerde vir Transformation as vir die “joernaliste” wat vir keo werk. Maar ek se vir jou dis deel van Keo se strategie – as hulle n bietjie controversial skryf of spelers beledig dan sal ons almal komments pos en te kere gaan – en dit werk.
Ek stem min saam met Ryan (veral Ryan haha) maar hierdie artikel is nogal akuraat – ons almal kyk na Spies en dink “Hel man, hy is puure spiere en spoed” en ons verwag meer van hom. Ek het al baie keer gese Vermeulen moet #8 vir d Bokke speel, maar na Saterdag is ek maar te vrede as Spies speel (so lank hy daai kwalieteit spel aanhou speel en sy potensieel beryk)
16 Aug 2011, 16:50 pm
@Ryan(Ryan)-65: VERY rich coming from you Ryan, after the personal attacks you have launched against Boks and the BOk coach. Whether or not you think someone is lying, it is “getting personal” to denounce them as lying and write screaming headlines about it.
Even more so when the Bok coaches are trying to heal, rest and work with our top players to defend a World Cup – noble motives.
Although I will agree with you that there is way too much getting personal on this blog…
16 Aug 2011, 22:25 pm
@80.ufo: I am comparing Spies to the EARLY Zinzan, who in 1990 replaced Buck Shelford at No.8. He was a poor imitation of an international back row player, no physical presence and very inconsistent. AB fans were tearing their hair out at him, just as some Bok fans are at Spies.
What I am suggesting is that with the attributes that Spies has, a la the early Zinzan, he could turn out to be a great international No.8. I am not saying he is that at the moment.
16 Aug 2011, 22:29 pm
Another point to bear in mind is that a side’s fans often see different things in opposition players to what the opposition’s fans see. For instance, from what I can tell Bok fans rated Zinzan right from 1992 when he took a quick tap to score a try and seal the AB’s win in the first game since the Boks rejoined the fold. AB fans and coaches remained unconvinced right through to the Bok tour to NZ in 1994, when Zinzan finally started putting in consistent 80 minute performances. I don’t think Zinzan wasn’t Laurie Mains first choice no8 until that 94 series, and he had promoted other players previously like Aran Pene (sp?)
16 Aug 2011, 22:33 pm
Eg as an AB supporter, Spies worries me because he has the speed and power on attack to unlock our defenses, which Bok sides often struggle to do. Given that in serious games (World Cups) the Bok defence is always good and we will find it hard to score tries against you, a potenial game breaker like Spies worries me EVEN if he does have some flaws.
I think he is a bit like SBW in that regard – I am worried about having him in our side because he isn’t the finished article, doesn’t have a high work rate and seems prone to go quiet if the game doesn’t go his way. BUT opposition sides (though perhaps not the Boks) will worry we will play him, because of his ability to rip open a defence with an offload or fend.
16 Aug 2011, 23:59 pm
@corporal punishment(corporal punishment)-86:
Im yet to see a better Series-performance by 1 player than Zinny in that 1994 biyatching of the Boks. The bleeding-bandages over his scone with hands raised aloft in victory is etched in my brain, as is Fitzys fist thumping the Loftus turf. Happy days !
17 Aug 2011, 09:18 am
@corporal punishment(corporal punishment)-85:
i think the story and Zinny’s selection and his skills are two different issues… and I have to disagree that Pierre will ‘develop’ into his role…
he’s already had how many tests…? Think he’s played more already than Zinzan played altogether…
While Zinzan may not have cemented a place early in his career I don’t think it had anything to do with his skills… He always exhibited great hands skills, feet skills and intelligence on the park… you could always see him thinking on the field and that’s why he was so exciting… also his attitude was great… he would niggle and get under the skin and into the minds of the opposition but very seldom lost his cool…
perhaps his brashness had more to do with his being accepted or not by the AB management than anything else…
one thing is for sure… Pierre Spies has never exhibited the skills or attitude that made Zinzan Brooke such a special player… and if Spies hasn’t developed them by now… he never will…
17 Aug 2011, 10:59 am
@corporal punishment(corporal punishment)-87: Awwwwww NO! Not ANOTHER blerrie Kiwi mafia member! Fark I thought we were finally getting rid of them!
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