449 Comments

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• 1.NicG:
  25 Aug 2011, 13:44 pm

  Like the background – KeoTV is starting to look less mickey mouse…

  I agree on Hoskins needing to be replaced. Nice bloke, but no balls – he’s a yes man.

  On the Ndungane point – can’t agree, he is one bloody solid wing. He won’t make the starting line-up, but he’s the best available back-up at the moment.

  Go the boks!

• 2.NicG:
  25 Aug 2011, 13:46 pm

  Oh… Dragons…

• 3.hendrikp:
  25 Aug 2011, 13:53 pm

  Transformation has not been a failure. It’s an impossible task to try and force the black community to embrace rugby straight away.

  If anything the feelings towards the Springboks have changed. And in the mean time the best players have played, which hasn’t always been the case in the past.

  Hoskins deserves a farking medal considering his predecessors. van Rooyen and that Nkanunu guy who looked he could be Thabo Mbeki’s great great great grandad.

• 4.keo:
  25 Aug 2011, 13:55 pm

  @hendrikp(hendrikp)-3: You miss the point bud. As president he promised to put in place systems that would mean transformation would not be failed. He has not done this. He has not been prepared to take on the 14 union with urgency, vigour and conviction. He shouldn’t be leading rugby in our country.

• 5.keo:
  25 Aug 2011, 13:56 pm

  @NicG(NicG)-1: Nothing wrong with Mickey Mouse … done alright over the last half century has mickey mouse and the Disney channel …

• 6.hendrikp:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:01 pm

  @keo(keo)-4:

  Fair enough. I guess it will come down to whether the respective provinces think he has done a good job then?

  I personally think if you put it aside, he’s done a good job outside of how he dealed with the T-watson fiasco. Transformation isn’t something you can force, otherwise you end up with the same sort of situation SA has a country where you’re forcing better qualified people out of jobs. I can’t see any way that it can be sped up without significantly weakening professional sides in South Africa. So really Hoskins was pretty much screwed either way.

  Transformation is stupid anyway. Should stay out of sports. Should just focus on winning, not what colour players are in the team. How is that fair!?!! Argument has been going on forever I know but it’s still relevant.

• 7.hendrikp:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:04 pm

  @keo(keo)-4:

  Ok so just watched the video. He should be accountable yes. But I’d rather have Hoskins then bring in some other fool who behaves like Brian van Rooyen.

• 8.Biscuit:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:06 pm

  Agree with Keo. I am sure the magazine will say more but its a lot more than just Super Rugby and Currie Cup opportunities.

  Our structures are still messy
  a) The same schools that produced the Boks in the 1970s and earlier produce the Boks of today. What are we doing to invest in the schools structure?
  One does not even have to look at the former Model C schools and the Private Schools. They work probably better than anywhere. Where are the new rugby schools?

  b) Club Rugby – enough said. Too many players (including black players) are dropping out because of the lack of the next level up.

  c) Varsity Cup – OK that works

  d) So starting new black youngsters, developing them and keeping them in the game are critical factors that need to be addressed even before they get CC and Super Rugby opportunities

  e) Opportunities in Super and CC – Well Keo has a point but to me its more a supply problem than an opportunity problem

  Either way SARU is responsible and Regan is the President

• 9.Transformation:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:06 pm

  @hendrikp(hendrikp)-3: nobody has to FORCE anyone, why do you argue from a false premise of black people NOT being interested in rugby?

  when it is said that in history, black people were not allowed to be picked for the Springboks, you should gather that they were INDEED already playing the game. open up opportunities, partner with less fortunate schools, adopt a club…do something to improve the lot of the EXISTING players.

• 10.Transformation:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:09 pm

  @keo(keo)-4: hear hear!

• 11.hendrikp:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:12 pm

  @Transformation(Transformation)-9:

  I’m not saying they aren’t interested in the game. I’m saying the level of interest probably differs. To what lengths would they go?

  If anything I would put the blame with top schools around South Africa. I said it the other day… the best professional players have – most of them come from the larger schools around South Africa. Those are the schools that compete at a high level, and have the facilities and coaching to properly develop players. If we get more black players playing there, then we’d see more of them coming through.

  Go have a look at the World Cup squad and see how many of those players come from ‘smaller’ schools. And then check out the S15 squads. It’s the larger rugby schools that provide the bulk of our talented players.

• 12.mxhosa:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:12 pm

  @hendrikp(hendrikp)-3:

  A medal for what? For failing to show support for Gert Smal proposal on transformation? For publicly stating Peter De Villiers only got the springbok coaching job because of the colour of skin?

  The black players that won the 2005 u21 are mostly playing CC first division rugby, while their reserves have gone on to be springboks…. why does he not investigate what happened to these players? Why is it that 6 years later their peers have reached springbok heights and the ceiling for them is the VC and CC fist divsion?

  Feelings towards the springboks changed in 1995 boet!

• 13.keo:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:13 pm

  What Hoskins must be held accountable to is his bravado a the press conference following the 2007 RWC squad when he defended the lack of black representation and said it would never happen again. Four years on, under his watch, it has. That’s why he should go.

• 14.Transformation:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:15 pm

  @hendrikp(hendrikp)-6: the maties team were quite transformed – fielding more that 8 players of colour on merit – and were winning the varsity cup regularly, no weakining of the team there. why should it be any different elsewhere?

  you reckon the valke will be more KAK than they currently if they give opportunities to more players of colour who deserve to play?

• 15.we have it on good authority that on september 11, a legend will rise...:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:17 pm

  whoooaaaa, whoooa, whoooa….whooa, whoaa!…..
  nobody needs to quit, ok?…
  for anything…….

• 16.Transformation:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:19 pm

  @mxhosa(mxhosa)-12: hear hear

  De Villiers’ World Cup winning u20 side (2005)

  15 Hennie Daniller, (Cheetahs, super 15); 14 Cedric Mkhize (retired, injured); 13 Earl Rose (Griquas, VC); 12 Thabang Molefe (Griffons, VC); 11 Marius Delport (Lions, super 15); 10 Morne Steyn (Bulls, super 15, Springbok); 9 Paul Delport (SA sevens)

  8 Pieter Louw (Stormers, super 15); 7 Hilton Lobberts (Boland, VC); 6 Derick Kuun (Bulls, super 15); 5 Cliff Milton (Somewhere in France); 4 Nikolai Blignaut (Natal, VC); 3 Sangoni Mxoli (EP Kings, VC); 2 Chilliboy Ralepelle (Bulls, super 15, Springbok); 1 Heinke vd Merwe (Ulster, Springbok)

  16 Adriaan Strauss (Cheetahs, super 15, Springbok); 17 Werner Kruger (Bulls, super 15); 18 Gerhard Morstert (Sharks, super 15); 19 Davon Raubenheimer (Cheetahs, super 15) 20 Ruan Pienaar (Ulster, Springbok); 21 Mzwandile Stick (EP Kings, VC); 22 Ronnie Cooke (somewhere in France)

• 17.stormersboy:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:20 pm

  @keo(keo)-13: I can get behind that reasoning.

  Never liked him much anyway.

• 18.hendrikp:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:20 pm

  @mxhosa(mxhosa)-12:

  Just because they started at U21 level doesn’t make them the best player in their position, or capable of playing Super rugby. When you’re at that level already, and you haven’t pushed on, the blame lies at no ones feet but your own. Maybe they weren’t good enough?

  I can’t go back and look at the 2005 squad… but I can’t think of too many black players not coming through. There are some… but there are also heaps, and heaps, and heaps, of white players who were good at that level and never quite pushed on.

• 19.keo:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:21 pm

  This is what Hoskins said in 2007 after the Bok squad announcement. This is why he has failed the game.

  Hoskins, in an interview with the Independent Group newspapers at the weekend, has set a target of at least seven players of colour in the Springbok starting XV in the 2011 Rugby World Cup.

  Hoskins, at the weekend, again emphasises the fact that the game’s administrators, and not the national selectors, would be judged on transformation.

  “At the announcement of the 2007 World Cup squad I said the administration – and not the national selectors – must take the blame for the slow pace of transformation,” Hoskins was quoted as saying in the Independent Group newspapers.

  “We had to act immediately to address it, but there had to be substance to our way forward. There is no quick fix and we had to agree on a target for 2011. We have to ensure that every opportunity is created so that the national selectors can meet this target in the next four years.”

  Hoskins emphasised that he was looking at a targets, not quotas.

  “We, as the game’s leadership, must take charge of transformation issues. There can be no turning back on our commitment to change. We are not forcing the national coach to pick seven or eight black players in 2008. It is a target we believe can be achieved by the next World Cup when we can confidently say the Springboks represent everyone in South Africa, and that every player in the starting XV is there on merit. ‘

  Regan, the same two coloured wingers who started in the 2007 RWC final, and a black import from Zimbabwe is who will start four years later. You said it in 2007, blame the administration. So I am blaming you and that is why you should go.

• 20.hendrikp:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:24 pm

  @Transformation(Transformation)-16:

  Rose is out purely based on performance and his poor attitude. He got tons of oppurtunities. Molefe got his chance with the Lions. Same story. Paul Delport with Western Province/Stormers. Same story – but he struggled with injuries also. Nikolai Blignaut was like a copy of TGHMQD. And Mxoli never quite cut it. Mzandwile Stick got his oppurtunity with Sharks CC side. Same story.

• 21.Transformation:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:25 pm

  @keo(keo)-19: spot on

• 22.seabiscuit:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:25 pm

  Someone like Brendan venter or francious pienaar should b SA rugby president

• 23.hendrikp:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:26 pm

  Not attacking your video here Mark, because you are right. But how about a suggestion? We get some ideas flowing on how to improve the situation? What you think? It’s easy for me or you to stand back and shake our fists but if it’s such a problem then maybe you should use the influence that you do have to put forward some ideas.

• 24.seabiscuit:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:26 pm

  Someone like Brendan venter or francious pienaar should b SA rugby president .

• 25.hendrikp:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:27 pm

  @hendrikp(hendrikp)-20:

  Basicly what I’m saying is, they all got oppurtunities. Can’t blame Hoskins if they didn’t make the cut. Stick isn’t even in the Kings side at the moment, that’s how much they think of him.

• 26.Transformation:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:29 pm

  @hendrikp(hendrikp)-20: and what about ruan? who ahs been accommodated at every level because of who his father is and this mythical belief that he is a super talent. even now he is in the team to new zealand based on NOTHING but hype.

• 27.hendrikp:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:30 pm

  @seabiscuit(seabiscuit)-24:

  -_- Or not. If I have to see Francois Pienaar talk about his relationship with Mandela one more time… I’m gonna jump.

  Ex-rugby players aren’t always the best person for the jobs, whether it be SARU president or Springbok coach. I’m sure there is someone in South Africa that could do a good job and not stir sh-it like van Rooyen did.

• 28.Sasuke:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:31 pm

  Will the situation be any different next year??

• 29.Transformation:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:32 pm

  @hendrikp(hendrikp)-25: Stick just handed the captaincy to Luke now before the Currie Cup, he was the cappie in Romania when the team played in the Nations Cup, what rubbish are you talking?

• 30.hendrikp:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:33 pm

  @Transformation(Transformation)-26:

  You keep telling yourself that. In the mean time he is getting crazy money playing for Ulster and just won Players Player of the Year for them.

  Pienaar is a class player. He actually had some brilliant seasons when he first came through. That he played average alongside a very weak Springbok side in Australasia doesn’t change that.

  If those black players are as good, where are their European club contracts? Or are those clubs just as bad us?

• 31.Gunther:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:33 pm

  Morne du Plessis.

• 32.stormersboy:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:35 pm

  @Gunther(gunther)-31: I’d be amazed if he would be prepared to take it on.

• 33.hendrikp:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:35 pm

  @Transformation(Transformation)-29:

  Haha. Who is playing fullback for them at the moment? I’m not into watching poor sides like that play… just what the news reports said about why Stick had been dropped from the starting XV for some guy called SP Marais. Come on man they’ve got Tiger Mangweni in the side ahead of Stick.

• 34.Transformation:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:37 pm

  @hendrikp(hendrikp)-30: ulster tl tl tl

• 35.John Galt:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:38 pm

  Keo
  At what level do you think this transformation should take place?
  Serious question.

  The way I see it, the CC right now should be used to blood the next generation. Of any colour.
  I have been way more interested in watching the Sharks u21 team this year than the 1st team. Perhaps the transformation should be taking place here? Maybe lower?

  Schools in Natal are full of players of colour, Glenwood, Maritzburg, Westville etc who then go on to make up the most of the Natal Schools team. Why havent these guys gone on to greater things?
  Sudden lack of interest? Is it a physical thing, where the whities mature later in life? Who the fark knows.

  To me, watching Stef and Joubert plodding around is worse than watching paint dry. With all the focus on the WC and Trination, this would have been the ideal situation to push younger players through and let them compete.
  Sithole
  Richards
  Jordaan
  Lindeque.

  Let these guys play now, get experience.

  I do think that forcing players into situations where they perhaps arent capable or underdeveloped could do more damage than good.
  Chilliboy is case in point. How long was he under an injury cloud when he was younger? Sicknote! He was playing way above his development and it showed. Compare that to now, a little older, a little bigger, more experienced. He managed a full S15 season and peoples perception of him has suddenly changed.

  Transform, yes. But I think it is critical to do it at the correct level.

• 36.Transformation:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:38 pm

  @hendrikp(hendrikp)-33: the shut your trap then if you haven’t watched the team

• 37.Sheriff:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:39 pm

  I like the part where he said ‘ Again we digress’

  The only part that is missing for me is the ‘Verimark sales pitch’

  It goes like this: ‘ What are you waitin’ for, get stuck into transformation now’

  But you must say the ‘now’ with urgency, vigour and conviction.

  Almost a ‘na-ow’

• 38.Finfan:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:39 pm

  Keo, easy to point fingers but the reality is that it is about the best players and not their colour. Go have another look at the RWC 30 you yourself selected. If my memory serves me right, you preferred Johann Sadie to De Jongh and Schalk Brits to Ralepelle. This whole debate will go around in circles again.

• 39.Transformation:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:41 pm

  @John Galt(John Galt)-35: go ask the Sharks union why they haven’t renewed Xolane Howard Mnisi’s contract?

  frustrating players into quitting is what these unions do best and all we hear about is paul jordaan, piet lindeque etc…

• 40.hendrikp:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:41 pm

  @Transformation(Transformation)-36:

  Hehe. Fact is if he’s so good then why isn’t he starting for the Kings? Doesn’t matter if I haven’t watched them. He’s been left out, and not because of injury.

  Just saying

• 41.grant10:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:41 pm

  all i know is the carrot has failed the donkeys…..

  whats the bet the stick comes out now….?

• 42.Tacitus:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:41 pm

  Race based selections are immoral, simple as that. You can’t have it both ways.

  Either apartheid was acceptable – which would make the transformation agenda acceptable as well – or apartheid was wrong, in which case the whole issue of transformation is morally bankrupt along with it.

  It’s either or. You can’t have racial preference for white guys being condemned while putting racial targets for black guys on your agenda.

  What you CAN do, is pander to the morally bankrupt political leaders of the day in order to further your own interests, which is something Mark Keohane has never been shy of doing.

• 43.kaksioek:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:43 pm

  @keo(keo)-19: Come on Keo. How many non-white players are in the RWC squad – eight? OK, so let’s imagine that PdV picks all 8 in his starting team. Will you be happy then? Of course not. Why not? That would mean Hoskins has exceeded his target.

  You’re just making a fuss because that is your business model.

  For you, as a white South African, to be haranguing a coloured South African because there aren’t enough black South Africans in the national rugby team is a joke.

  Transformation at the elite level of sport is a farce – nothing but Nineteen Eighty-Four nonsense and Newspeak . Most people around the world would have no idea what you’re banging on about. “You’re upset because there are too many white players in your national team? And that’s relevant why exactly?”

  It’s 2011 people. Get a grip. The world doesn’t owe anybody anything. Nobody cares what colour you are.

• 44.hendrikp:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:44 pm

  @Tacitus(Deucalion)-42:

  Ouch. But I agree.

• 45.Gunther:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:44 pm

  @stormersboy(stormersboy)-32:

  I know.

  He’s too good for those jokers.

  But he would sort the muthafarkers out

  chop chop

  6 love 6 love

  all over rover

  goodnight nurse

  lATER ALLIGATOR

  fARK SORRY CAPS.

• 46.mxhosa:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:45 pm

  @hendrikp(hendrikp)-18:

  See post number 16, these players were the best in the world they beat both New Zealand and Australia…. Andries Strauss was also part of that squad, by the way, he wasn’t even good enough to make the bench (he’s a springbok too). The question is, why is it that every single one of those white players in that team went to on to play superrugby and only a handful of the black players?

  Jake White’s team in contrast:

  SA u21 (2002)

  15 Jorrie Muller (Springbok), 14 Jean De Villiers (Springbok), 13 Clyde Rathbone (Wallaby), 12 Dewey Swartbooi (Boland), 11 Ashwin Willemse (Springbok), reserve, Odwa Ndungane (Springbok) 10 Francois Swart (deceased), 9 Ricky Januarie (Springbok) – reserve, Fourie Du Preez (Springbok)

  8 Jacques Cronje (Springbok), 7 Pedrie Wannenburg (Springbok), 6 Roland Bernard (probably retired) 5 Juan Smith (Springbok), 4 Gordon Gillfillan (probably retired), 3 Pat Barnard (Pom), 2 Gary Botha (Springbok), 1 Gurthro Steenkamp (Springbok)

  Only three players and Swys Swart (may his soul rest in peace) have not gone on to play international rugby. Fourie Du Preez and Odwa Ndungane (black winger) were the only bench players to make earn bok colours.

• 47.BULLET:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:46 pm

  Such a hot topic of debate.

  Simply, what was Hoskins key performance indicators when he took the job? If transformation at grass roots level was one, then fire the man. We cannot fire the president of Sarfu for making promises and not delivering, as this would open the door for almost all of the SARFU team to be fired:

  Sadly, he has blown his credibility somewhat, but if transformation was not one of his criteria that his Bosses were judging him on, he is safe.

  What I love about Sarfu is the following:

  Coach A is fired for telling the media that ticket prices are too high. Coach A has one of the highest winning %’s of all coaches, and coached SA to a world record equalling 17 test match wins.

  Coach B has told countless lies & made many faux pa’s related to race, giving the whites back their game, and has successfully taken a team he inherited from 1 in the world, and has them hanging onto 4. Not once has he even been reprimanded.

  My, oh my, have the standards that determine if a coach eels his job have changed!

• 48.hendrikp:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:46 pm

  @kaksioek(kaksioek)-43:

  Except… the politicians. And of course it creates a bit of controversy which Keo thrives off. Sad but true.

• 49.Taahirah:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:47 pm

  @Gunther(gunther)-45: Grant10!
  What do I win???

• 50.hendrikp:
  25 Aug 2011, 14:48 pm

  @mxhosa(mxhosa)-46:

  You know Andries Strauss was by far the top try-scorer in the U20 tournament the previous year? He was head and shoulders above them all?

  My point – quotas were clearly in effect right there. Those players may have been good at that level, but you can’t force them to be good enough to be playing CC, Super rugby or for the Springboks.

  It has nothing to do with how they’ve been treated or developed by the franchises. They just simply weren’t good enough.

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