Sam’s the man in round one
13 Sep 2011
MARK KEOHANE selects his all-star XV and match 22 after the first round of the World Cup and says none was better than Wales captain Sam Warburton. Only two Boks and one All Black make his team.
Keo’s RWC Form XV
15. Israel Dagg (NZ)
14. Vereniki Goneva (Fij)
13. Jaque Fourie (SA)
12. Jamie Roberts (Wal)
11. Digby Ioane (Aus)
10. Quade Cooper (Aus)
9. Ben Youngs (Eng)
8. Sergio Parisse (Ita)
7. Juan Martin Fernandez Lobbe (Arg)
6. Sam Warburton (Wal)
5. Paul O’Connell (Ire)
4. James Horwill (Aus)
3. Ben Alexander (Aus)
2. Bismarck du Plessis (SA)
1. Andy Sheridan (Eng)
Substitutes
16 Marius Tincu (Rom)
17 Martin Castrogiovanni (Ita)
18 Brad Thorn (NZ)
19 Schalk Burger (SA)
20 Will Genia (Aus)
21 Sonny Bill Williams (NZ)
22 Richard Kahui (NZ)
The positions in which there was most competition definitely in the centres and at loose-forward. Wales’ Toby Faletau had a huge game against the Boks, but Sergio Parisse is the most complete No 8 at this tournament. It was hard to leave Schalk Burger out of the Form XV but Lobbe was immense against England. Jerome Kaino, David Pockock, Heinrich Brussouw and Radike Samo also had huge games in round 1.
Sonny Bill Williams was also very good, but Jamie Roberts get the nod because of the quality of the opposition and the intensity of the match.
A selection that may surprise many is Ben Alexander at tighthead. I was at that game and those first 40 minutes were brutal. He stood up to the Italian pack who couldn’t get parity in those first 40 minutes. There was one magnificent shove that should have resulted in a pushover try, but all-round I think Alexander will end this tournament as the most talked about tighthead.
Fill up the thread with your picks of round one.
293 Comments
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13 Sep 2011, 20:50 pm
Boks run on with Smit and Spies and Habana and FdP vs Fiji and Samoa… we may have squeaked a win out of Wales… don’t be so sure those dead legs will hold out another 160 mins vs the Islanders.
Only safe game in this pool is Namibia.. all the other 3 are tail spins and we JUST baled out of one disaster by the skin of our teeth don’t mean we gonna do the same vs the 2 Islander sides.
13 Sep 2011, 20:56 pm
Just watching the replay of the England Argentina game (didn’t see it last week) and apart from the shocking kicking, there was some exciting play. I really am a fan of the Argi loose forwards, particularly Fernandez-Lobbe (the number 8) and Leguizamon (the openside flank). Great work rate from both.
13 Sep 2011, 20:57 pm
that’s number 8
13 Sep 2011, 21:09 pm
England got out of jail that game even closer than we did, though ours was a 1 point game and theirs was a 4 pointer they were trailing by 6 most of the game and had Contepomi or Fernandez slotted at least some of their kicks England would have been dead and buried by 60 mins.Wilkinson also missed about 4 kickable penalties but the momentum was all with Argentina the entire first 60 mins. Only swung around once Youngs came on and Wilkinson took a line kick instead of another attempt at poles and this time set up the forward platform for Youngs to take the game from out of Argies grasp.. Almost much the same as our situation when Hougaard broke Welsh hearts.
Argentina played with passion and heart to the death and to a man, England just sneaked that game, very much like SA did vs Wales
Could be the omen that SA / Eng gotta shoot it out for a finals birth again. Our joint styles are almost on equal one dimensional par.
13 Sep 2011, 21:33 pm
Don’t expect PDiv to make sweeping changes to the starting 15. Unlike France who have made 11 changes for the match against Canada.
He will keep the loose trio intact and hopefully they will combine more effectively as a combo. Looks like this is his first choice and they need plenty game time together. Unless Spies falls off the bus totally.
Willem Alberts will be on the bench covering lock and 7.
Flo will be elevated to the bench.
I reckon Butch will be given a start at 10 and JDJ will slot in at 12.
13 Sep 2011, 21:39 pm
@I am a stormer(I am a stormer)-255:
Spies fell off the bus a long time ago.
13 Sep 2011, 21:39 pm
Smit will never stay with the Fijians or the Samoans, he will be exposed even worse in a loose running game, and if Spies won’t tackle same as FdP cannot then Fiji and Samoa are going to have free lunch all afternoon busting through first phase defense.
If PdV don’t start Bismark, Alberts, Hougaard and bench Smit, Spies, FdP we could even get a bloody nose from the Islanders because they will not fold and lay down if they do happen to expose our weaknesses they will continue to exploit them and won’t choke on the lead like Wales did.
13 Sep 2011, 21:41 pm
agree, with frans at 12, lambie at 15 and hougaard replacing JP
13 Sep 2011, 21:47 pm
Nope I reckon would be a mistake to put Steyn at 12
Keep him at 15, play De Jongh 12 and Hougaard 9, Butch 10, Aplon 11
Bismark MUST start at 2 and Spies can ONLY operate off bench
Louw would be a handy inclusion at 7
Need Mostert here sharp.
13 Sep 2011, 21:49 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-257:
I can’t see FdP being dropped and the best we can do is to try and play him back to form after his layoff. Spies doesn’t have the same excuse and persisting with him is only prolonging the problem. I’d like to see Schalk at 8 and Alberts at 7, where he’s most effective if we’re going to build a loosie combo going forward.
13 Sep 2011, 21:57 pm
The Islanders are going to relish playing vs FdP and Spies… NO resistance anywhere around the scrum fringes or through 9 / 10 channel if Spies, FdP, Morne are the ones shoring that channel.
Only way to contain them is Hougaard to 9 and Burger or Alberts to 8 because once they are through the first line of breakdown around scrum fringes then its open season at the back. Those big mobile tanks will take some stopping and if its only De Jongh and or Steyn at back with any stopping power don’t be surprised if we chasing the game again like last time. This time Smit is TOTALLY ineffective and cannot command any kind of galvanizing ability… so Bismark, Mostert, Brussow, Burger, Alberts, Hougaard, Butch, De Jongh, Frans will need be on the park.
13 Sep 2011, 22:00 pm
@David(David)-256:
Unfortunately, Spies is the only specialist no. 8 in the squad – Alberts will be denied the chance to play there while he’s covering as lock. That is, until a decision on Bakkies is taken and Matfield is fit again.
13 Sep 2011, 22:00 pm
@David(David)-260:
I warned some time ago at banking on Smit, FdP and Spies… well looks like nobody going to heed the warning till the wheels have actually come off…
We got lucky last week… Wales choked at the prospect of unseating the Boks… Fiji and Samoa won’t be nearly quite as respectful.. if they get a slight whiff of some blood they’ll go all out for the kill.
13 Sep 2011, 22:02 pm
As far as Frans is concerned, regardless of where he plays, he should be instructed to drop for goal whenever he’s within range. At best we’ll get 3 points, at worst it’ll be a 25 dropout and we’ll get posession whilst the opposition will avoid trying to kick for position.
I reckon that’s why the ABs have failed to win a RWC since 1987. They’re focussed on beating the opposition as opposed to winning the game.
13 Sep 2011, 22:09 pm
Shampoopaloo;
Spies to bench-agree.
M.Steyn to bench or out-agree.
FdP- got more brains than rest of Boks in total, made the try that sealed the match give him a chance to find his feet man.
JdJ- still a bit imature, needs to learn how to offload.
F.Steyn- centre, Lambie- fullback, still thinking about that one??
13 Sep 2011, 22:13 pm
@I am a stormer(I am a stormer)-262:
I agree about the problem caused by the lack of specialist 4 cover with Danie and Alberts the only option, making 8 a problem area. Spies is not a specialist 8, in my opinion, if you consider his performance there, and Schalk can do the job just as well or better.
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-263:
You were quite right, although of the 3 you mention, FdP is probably the one who can come right, without disrupting the team as whole. It’s too late in the day to change the whole approach and team dynamics with the current players.
13 Sep 2011, 22:15 pm
@bokke bo(bokke bo)-265:
Aplon at 15 if Frans moves, although dropping Morne would require a backup kicker like Lambie.
13 Sep 2011, 22:15 pm
crazy world. Muller now said to be injured, and Bakkies trained ok. Must be a new brand of horse tranquillizer!
13 Sep 2011, 22:24 pm
Roberts would never have smashed that midfield like he did if De Jongh was there, he would have got taken down much earlier than the havoc he caused through JdV, Butch and Morne,… De Jongh would have sorted him early… I don’t know what everyone is crying about offload because NO ONE offloads at 12 unless its SBW… De Jongh offloads as good as any the others … perhaps even better than some … and at least he injects some kind of activity through first channel of resistance unlike Schalk or anyone else trying to bash through the closed barn door.
We playing the WRONG game with Spies, FdP, Morne 8 / 9 / 10 and we will continue to play the wrong game.. and FdP is as poor a tackler as Spies and Morne are
Forget the kick chase it won’t work.. I am telling you EMPHATICALLY if you want to go ANYWHERE past semi’s this time FORGET the FDP / MORNE kick chase game, and play Hougaard 9, Butch 10, JdJ 12 .. I’m not concerned about wings they will feed off whatever is happening before them and will come into the game and into their stride once the platform at 8 , 9 , 10 is well sorted and 12 / 13 are functioning effectively as a unit.
13 Sep 2011, 22:26 pm
@bokgat1(bokgat1)-268:
best temporary fix.
danie & alberts 4 & 5 brussouw 6 Flouw 7 Burger 8.
super. we’re playing musical chairs in the wc
13 Sep 2011, 22:29 pm
Bokgat1;
My son’s girlfriend tells me that Andries Bekker is doing bench press ups in anticipation of being called up for the shoot outs. Interesting indeed!
13 Sep 2011, 22:30 pm
signing off. it’s 4:30 am in Singapore
13 Sep 2011, 22:32 pm
Craven was absolutely correct when he identified the spine of the team to be crucial and balanced
2, 8, 9, 10, 15 is the axis where the rest of the peripherals function off.
I prefer Frans at 15, and i even go with JPP at 15 and rather play Aplon, Habana on wings
I’m not sold on Lambie.. he got the correct calm mindset but he’s too middle of the road for me… he’s a backup only in my mind and never a go to man. Unlike Hougaard and even players like De Jongh and Aplon who can spark activity when its on..
FdP may have the rugby brain but he has lost his mojo and I doubt he gets it back where he don’t skrik for niks… like Spies I reckon he don’t really wanna get hurt so rather play somebody there who ain’t bang.
13 Sep 2011, 22:37 pm
Though if I play Lambie I play him 15 before I play him 10 or 12… I reckon at 15 he can actually be a handy asset.
Would call up Mostert before relying on a fading Bakkies, and an injured Matfield.. and if Bekker is ready without playing any rugby for how long .. I dunno about that.
Brussow, Louw, Burger, loose trio with Alberts at 4 and Spies off bench would work fine for now. Especially against rest of the pools games where we not up against any stringent line out proponents..
13 Sep 2011, 22:37 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-269: stop believing and perpetuating that morne is such a bad tackler. he is not.
he tackled plenty.
problem started with the entire forward pack not knowing where to go. they were systematically being ground to a point where the were divided and conquered and because of that there was no pattern of defence in the backline with forwards supporting in defence in crucial times.
sure. the guy ran over morne that took the break. moerse. that’s happened to many backline players getting a forward -eight i think it was- running into a pass and hitting a defender ball and all and bursting through.
hell. is hook and williams now the underwoods of the world now that F Steyn bumped them on their axis – the both of them in one go.
there has never been a problem with morne’s defence to the point everybodys carrying on now. so why is it now such a big problem. he may not be honniball. or whoever convenient we can think of.
but hardly man. morne is easily in the top 5 tackling flyhalves we’ve had in the last 10/ 15 years. this is becoming a total classic case of adressing the symptom instead of the cause.
13 Sep 2011, 22:39 pm
Lightning here in Jhb, so cheers!
13 Sep 2011, 22:46 pm
the boks maybe thought they were going to play a clinical game and come out winning by 6 or 7 points on mere history of getting the win if they apply their minds. and…. going through without any injuries. which explains a tentative approach. not committing to tackles and contact.
the welsh were up for this game like we were up for england 36-0. so we got a physical game. we even had 5/2 split, to make it safe. which almost also didn’t work out. expect a more focused and hardened approach from all involved in the next few outings.
13 Sep 2011, 22:46 pm
@bokke bo(bokke bo)-271: on 2 thumbs
13 Sep 2011, 22:49 pm
heard a saying on tv tonight that the vets probably heard before. all plans change after first contact…
13 Sep 2011, 22:50 pm
@shooter(shooter)-275:
I’m not concerned with Morne half as much as I am with FdP.. FdP sets the pace and momentum of the back line and Hougaard would have it humming a whole lot faster and more direct. My main concern with Morne is not so much his tackling but his lack of direction in getting the back line motoring where Butch , JdJ, Fourie would do. … Morne is not the problem in the back line or the team only he is not the solution either.. his primary function is to kick us out of trouble which he does very effectively.. Hence I even considered Morne at 12 at one point but now I reckon it won’t work though I rather have Butch 10 and Morne 12 than the other way around..
For Fiji I play
Frans, JPP, Fourie, JdJ, Aplon, Butch, Hougaard
I leave Habana, Morne, Lambie, Pienaar, Ndungane and FdP out… to decide who takes bench spots and whether we play a full front row on bench or a 4/3 split.
13 Sep 2011, 22:51 pm
@shooter(shooter)-279: or something like that…maybe it was … no plan stays the same after first contact.. oh well. get the point.
13 Sep 2011, 22:52 pm
Shampoopaloo; FdP will die in order to bring the WE trophy home. The only thing that can wipe away 30 years of pain (since being cheated out of winning the flower bomb test and having to travel against time to play the All Blacks) is bringing the cup home from the land of the long white cloud. Indeed, that would make DC proud. Sorry, I know I’m getting a little sentimental and emotional.
13 Sep 2011, 22:58 pm
@shooter(shooter)-275: Top five tackling flyhalf so lets rank them
1. Henry “The Lem” Honiball
2. Butch “The Butcher” James
3. Meyer Bosman
4. Andre Pretorius
5. Pat Lambie
6. Jannie de Beer
7. Jaco Pretorius
8. Joel Stransky
9. Morne Steyn
So where would he feature in the top 5?
13 Sep 2011, 23:01 pm
@JL1(JL1)-283: Butthen again Percy was rubbish tackler, but had a good boot and was good with his positional play and linking
13 Sep 2011, 23:04 pm
Ja. that backline would do well. no problems.
thing about FdP.. he has always! been “slow” in getting the ball out. some guys like their 9′s to be quick all the time. run run run. and service service service.
FdP has never been that kind of scrummie. funnily enough. he varies the pace of the ball to the backs. i have also gotten very frustrated by it in the past. and still do. but he does that. if you think about it? was that one of the things that has made him so good in the past… i don’t know.
i understand that you propose to change the status quo from time to time. and i don’t mind certain players being picked and others not. i think we should keep in mind their strengths. after every game the easy-to-spot errors are being highlighted to such an extent that many observers forget to observe the plenty value that the same guys also added.
i would play FdP for another game or two to get his confidence back to where it should be. i think he is moving over the mental problem he’s had since coming back into S15 earlier the year. ok…it’s taken him a while.. but he’s nearly there.
for fiji
Fdp, butch, hougaard, JdJ, Fourie, steyn/lambie.
with lambie, habana and morne bench.
13 Sep 2011, 23:08 pm
Got to be out still some work to do here before hitting the sack .. cheers
If we play Smit and Spies vs Fiji we are asking for some more bitter medicine we can well do without right now… same goes for FdP in my book… Hougaard would be FAR better vs the islanders than FdP. Spies can come off bench he may even be an asset when they are tiring and he is fresh… but when they are fresh he is totally ineffective and a passenger.. as is the aura Smit who’s the worst liability of the lot
13 Sep 2011, 23:11 pm
Shooter 275; It is a known fact that as long as Morne Steyn is our flyhalf, the opposition consistently target that channel and get rewarded. Fact is fact. Have you ever seen him hit a runner back???
13 Sep 2011, 23:16 pm
@JL1(JL1)-283:
1. Henry “The Lem” Honiball
2. Butch “The Butcher” James
3. Meyer Bosman – you mean the two games he played for SA?
4. Andre Pretorius – i wouldn’t rate him this high.. do you.. mmm. reserve judgement
5. Pat Lambie – not a regular i consider.
6. Jannie de Beer – he was ok – better than pretorius
7. Jaco Pretorius – his tackling at 15 and wing was better than at 10.
8. Joel Stransky – more than 15 years ago
braam v straatten.
louis koen.
morne is at least on par with everybody from 4 upwards. and bosman doesn’t count imo.
we could maybe maybe to a wider search for all SA 10′s.. so i’ll say i’ve made a rather general statement. my point is though… morne got exposed at 15.. that is where this fallacy is coming from and knee jerk reaction.
NObody was complaining about his defence before wc. now because he was the glaring runned over guy… everybody is saying he is a bad defender. i don’t buy it. can he improve.. yes, he should work on his defence because it is the easiest place where he can to add to his game.
btw bosman has been really useles at centre these days. i also rated him big time first year or two. now i don’t.
13 Sep 2011, 23:22 pm
@bokke bo(bokke bo)-287: ja. many times. and i’ve seen him tackle low just as many times.
and i’ve seen him tackle forwards all the time. since when (examples?) do opposition target him for this channel running all the time for a fact.\\
13 Sep 2011, 23:32 pm
@shooter(shooter)-288: D hougaard, brent russel, werner greeff (he could tackle a bit), did gaffie ever play 10? and Pienaar.
13 Sep 2011, 23:33 pm
Shooter; just look at our recent away campaign in Tri Nations. Enough said.
Nite all
13 Sep 2011, 23:34 pm
jaco pretorius/ you mean JvdW..yes.
13 Sep 2011, 23:40 pm
@bokke bo(bokke bo)-291: sure. go watch the most recent game again. and tell me if MS was such a weak defender.
the other rumour is that he stands too deep.
he doesn’t all the time.
his biggest disadvantage- however- is the fact that he has relative slow hands. takes alot of time receiving and sending the ball away. and that maybe he lacks a little bit of plain pace. which is why the backline is sometimes slow in getting off with him there.
anyway. away too. bye >
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