Wales lament Warburton red
15 Oct 2011
Wales have questioned the judgement of referee Alain Rolland in sending off captain Sam Warburton and pointed to it as the decisive action in the Test.
Wales were the better team throughout the Eden Park clash despite being reduced to 14 men as a result of Warburton’s 1th minute red card for what was adjudged to be a spear tackle.
However, coach Warren Gatland was still heavily critical of the decision. ‘It surprised me how quickly the referee made that decision. You’d think that an experienced referee would have consulted his touch judges first. I don’t dispute that he lifted the player, which deserved a yellow card, but he didn’t drive him into the ground,’ Gatland said.
‘We feel like our destiny of winning a World Cup semi-final was taken away by that decision. But I’m proud of how the guys responded in a situation where France should have been comfortable. To get that close was a massive effort.’
Warburton said he never intended to lift winger Vincent Clerc, explaining that his momentum and weight advantage combined to make for a punishing hit. ‘It wasn’t malicious. One minute I was getting up off the ground, the next I was in the stands. I’m gutted.’
Wales had plenty of possession in the closing stages and looked to be setting up a drop goal. Strangely veteran flyhalf Stephen Jones never looked prepared to risk one, consistently calling for the ball to be retained in the forwards. Gatland was non-committal when probed on this issue.
‘We didn’t really ever put ourselves in a good enough shape to do what we wanted to in that situation,’ he said. ‘We had to get more momentum at the gainline, which didn’t come.’
France coach Marc Lièvremont was typically animated despite another mediocre performance from his charges. ‘I don’t care about whether we were good or not. All that matters is that we are in a World Cup final in New Zealand,’ he said.
‘Strangely the numbers advantage seemed to affect us badly. We were expected to win from that position, but the players never controlled the ball like they should have. We made a lot of knock ons and poor decisions. But again, we’re in the final and have a chance to make things right before then.’
Lièvremont said he hoped to face the All Blacks in the final. ‘I’ve always been a lover of the All Blacks and to play against them in the final would be a dream come true. Our history against them at this tournament doesn’t matter, we’ve never beaten them in a final. I’d love to face them.’
By Ryan Vrede, at Eden Park.
162 Comments
15 Oct 2011, 13:30 pm
I hear everyone bleating how “unlucky” he was to be red carded, instead of rightfully ridiculing such an idiotic tackle. He lifted him into the air, turned him and the Frenchman landed on the back of his neck. It was incredibly dangerous. But no, it appears as though Wales are the new New Zealand, can do no wrong. They were outplayed in key facets of the game, and rightfully are out. They can look to their captain, supposedly the best leader in test rugby, and point fingers at him for letting them down.
15 Oct 2011, 13:34 pm
If anyone sees a conspiracy in this one they need their head read…Rolland was just doing his job…this ruling even dates back to 2009
http://www.deepsouthrugbyunion.com/images/IRB_Memorandum_re_Dangerous_Tackles.pdf
15 Oct 2011, 13:36 pm
even the intent can be ruled out.
Referees and Citing Commissioners should not make their decisions based on what they consider was the intention of the offending player. Their decision should be based on an objective assessment (as per Law 10.4 (e)) of the circumstances of the tackle.
15 Oct 2011, 13:37 pm
@Alucard(Alucard)-1:
Warburton went in HARD. Hit the smaller Yackvali (I think) low, twisted and turned.
In the words of Chief Engineer Scott, of the Star Ship Enterprise,
“You canny ignore the laws of physics”.
15 Oct 2011, 13:37 pm
“…but he didn’t drive him into the ground.”…but he didn’t put him down either.
I supported the Welsh through and through the full 80 minutes but the decision was correct and the judgement was fair. The captain of all should’ve known better. Yes it’s a shame they had to play 60 minutes with 14 men but that’s how it works.
I wish the Bokke had fair judgement in their game.
15 Oct 2011, 13:38 pm
The decision for the red card was correct and Wales were very lucky to make it this far in the RWC, they never stood a chance of winning it, dream on Gatland……..
15 Oct 2011, 13:38 pm
The man was lifted and dropped….he could have easily fallen awkwardly and got seriously injured.
15 Oct 2011, 13:44 pm
Had Halfpenny got the kick over the major talking point would be the unfair penalty against the French.
15 Oct 2011, 13:44 pm
Is it not amazing that even coaches, and GOOD ones at that, don’t really know or even understand the rules as they stand:
Here is the rule, as reasserted just prior to the World Cup:
Here for the record is the rule as summarised recently: The International Rugby Board’s rule on ‘spear tackles’ reads: “It is dangerous play to lift a player from the ground and drop or drive that player into the ground whilst that player’s feet are still off the ground so that the player’s head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground.”
Ahead of the tournament a directive was also issued to referees relating to such tackles, which stated: “Foul play – high tackles, grabbing and twisting of the head and tip tackles to be emphasised, with referees to start at red and work backwards.”
IRB recommended sanctions for such tackles start at bans of three weeks for offences considered to be at the lower end of the scale, six weeks for middle-level transgressions and end at 10 weeks or more for the worst ‘spear tackles’.
In this case the KEY word is “DROP”, see para 1 of the quote. And that is clear.
15 Oct 2011, 13:47 pm
The amended Law 10.4(j) reads: Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player’s feet are still off the ground such that the player’s head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground is dangerous play.
Red card offense. Once can only argue why so many other spear tackles were not red carded. Inconsistency from the refs throughout this tournament.
Whatever happens tomorrow there is a NZ coach in the final.
15 Oct 2011, 13:50 pm
Sadly, it was the right call. If that wasn’t a red card tip tackle, then nothing is. I feel horrible for Wales and Warburton though. This was their chance. They could have taken either of the other semifinalists. France will get molested in the final.
15 Oct 2011, 14:10 pm
Bullsh!t it was not a red card, The one on Lambie didn’t even get a penalty, the refs are out to get the kiwis a world cup, Aussie betta watch out tomorrow, this is world cup that will remembered for all the wrong reasons, Allain Roland has just completely screwed his legacy, so many years of good reefing, ruined by a moment of madness, there have been plenty of tackles worse than that one that went unpunished!
15 Oct 2011, 14:11 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-11: France are due a big game. Not so sure about that. Hope Australia/New Zealand lose the final. for all the cheating and fiddling no SH side must win it. That’s justice.
15 Oct 2011, 14:12 pm
@Great White Shark(Predawn)-7: he is playing rugby, every scrum could cripple a player, “.he could have easily fallen awkwardly and got seriously injured.” what sort of comment is that! nearly every tackle has the propensity to injure someone by its very nature!
15 Oct 2011, 14:13 pm
@surreyshark4(surreyshark4)-12: Lol some people just won’t stop even when the proofs as obvious as daylight..
15 Oct 2011, 14:14 pm
@Alucard(Alucard)-13: this FRANCE doesn’t have a BIG game in them, they are THE WORSE FRENCH TEAM to have been in a world cup!- whoever wins tomorrow Wins the CUP!!!
15 Oct 2011, 14:19 pm
@surreyshark4(surreyshark4)-16: france were far worse in 2007, and very dire in 2003. New Zealand look shabby, Arse-stale-ia are a joke.
15 Oct 2011, 14:19 pm
@toby(toby)-15: Toby i have watched the tackle a dozen times – if that is a red card the majority of games would either end with 12 players per team or scores like basketball 106 -115 because no one would tackle.
15 Oct 2011, 14:23 pm
@surreyshark4(surreyshark4)-18: Not every game has those tackles. But one thing is for certain, these tackles have the capacity to end lives. Any idiot that defends them should be dumped on their neck to see how they like it.
15 Oct 2011, 14:24 pm
this has turned into an x factor type competition – it not about the performance of the teams(read artists) but about the referees(read Judges)
15 Oct 2011, 14:25 pm
@surreyshark4(surreyshark4)-12:
You are a tool, now every ref from every country is cheating for NZ, get a life mate you’ve been elimnated because you weren’t good enough deal with it.
15 Oct 2011, 14:26 pm
whether its red or yellow is not the point. There is inconsistency in application of laws on the field and it is yet another game screwed up by a refs handling of the game. But like the Boks, Wales had more than enough chances to win so the ref can say that Wales lost rather than France won it.
Either the Wobblies or the Blacks could field their second team and still beat France. France know that whatever happens they will come second.
15 Oct 2011, 14:28 pm
@surreyshark4(surreyshark4)-20: You are right, the referees have directly affected the outcome of most results, or at least ruined most games. Some teams are more favoured than others, just as in 2007 we had to fight against very poor reffing as well as the opposition.
15 Oct 2011, 14:32 pm
@kesbok(kesbok)-22: The difference is that the Boks converted two try opportunities, both were disallowed. A break down the touchline, a 3 on 1, disallowing a guaranteed try. That’s 21 points that the Boks had in the bag disallowed, not to mention the four yellow cardable offences by Australia and the mountain of penalties that should have been awarded. This game was nothing like the boks game. Not even half way close to being so.
15 Oct 2011, 14:33 pm
If it was a yellow would anybody have complained? I think not! Another example of a ref wanting to be important!
15 Oct 2011, 14:34 pm
@Alucard(Alucard)-23:
no whats happend is you have been eliminated because you weren’t good enough, keep whining like a schoolgirl mate its a good look
15 Oct 2011, 14:36 pm
Not sure what the problem is, the rule is posted above, if you cannot understand this, you should try another sport.
He left the ref no option, it is a straight red.
It is not the refs fault, he didn’t nearly paralyse a player.
15 Oct 2011, 14:37 pm
@NZINCHINA(NZINCHINA)-26: You are just another idiotic NZ twat. Hows life in the rubble of Christchurch? You should be at home, seeing as you are a filthy gutter rat. The truth of the matter is that the Boks were, yet again, robbed by another filthy New Zealand gimp. The facts are very clear. But keep believing what you want. I couldn’t care less what an utter cleft has to say about the Boks.
15 Oct 2011, 14:37 pm
@surreyshark4(surreyshark4)-14:
Are you trying to be argumentative for the sake of an argument?
He was lifted and dropped dingleberry. Fortunately when he landed he did so on most of his back and not on his neck. Now as with all people with common sense, the chap had no choice in the matter as he was lifted by his lower legs and dropped from a height…it surely must occur to you that the act of being lifted and dropped can disorientate you?
The reason this is a red card offence (as O’Droscol will tell you) is to prevent a tackler from purposely unjuring a player by lifting off him off the ground and then dropping or driving said player at a (almost) 90 degree angle into the ground. The player is disorientated and therfore you will notice that none of the players put their hands out to protect their heads….as they do not know where they are at that moment.
Hmph…wonder how you’d like it.
15 Oct 2011, 14:38 pm
looking forward not sure what will be more entertaining the Aussies getting thumped or the AB’s choking. Tough call
15 Oct 2011, 14:39 pm
The just decision would of been a yellow card.
After the match finished Warburton should have then have had to face a judiciary in which they could decide after viewing replays etc from all angles whether he should miss further matches. That way the team and player is penalized but not the rugby public who miss out on a proper spectacle.
15 Oct 2011, 14:39 pm
@NZINCHINA(NZINCHINA)-26: You can be smug, but if you had the same ref give the same performance, what would you say.
Same thing as this tackle, if the Frenchie was in your teams jersey, you would demand red, if the tackler was in your jersey, you would say it is not that bad…
Remember these comments when the ref wheel turns your way.
15 Oct 2011, 14:39 pm
@Alucard(Alucard)-28:
what’s your address I’ll send you a big bag of lemons to suck on you whining schoolgirl, my eight month old daughter whines less than you
15 Oct 2011, 14:39 pm
@Alucard(Alucard)-19:
Zactly.
15 Oct 2011, 14:40 pm
@NZINCHINA(NZINCHINA)-33:
Hope you bought nice Bok babygrows for her.
15 Oct 2011, 14:42 pm
@The Bill(The Bill)-32:
for farks sake mate now EVERY ref in the world is cheating so NZ can win a world cup you’re making fools of yourselves after a gut wrenching defeat, every result every card is actioned so NZ can win the cup ALL REFS FROM EVERY COUNTRY ARE CHEATING IN UNISON what a farking joke you guys are
15 Oct 2011, 14:42 pm
@NZINCHINA(NZINCHINA)-21: be very strange if a bad reefing decision from a saffa tomorrow knocks you out , we see how you feel then, if there is any justice in the universe it should happen! or maybe susie names is Suzzana
15 Oct 2011, 14:43 pm
@Great White Shark(Predawn)-35:
you want some lemons as well
15 Oct 2011, 14:44 pm
@NZINCHINA(NZINCHINA)-33: Your 8 month old rat? Only the one? Unusual for the species.
15 Oct 2011, 14:45 pm
@NZINCHINA(NZINCHINA)-36: Easy chap, you are being hysterical.
I asked you a to consider what would happen if you had the same ref performance against you. How would you take it?
I never said anything about the rest of the world refs or any other people, administrators etc. Just the ref performance in a once in a 4 year match.
15 Oct 2011, 14:45 pm
@surreyshark4(surreyshark4)-37:
if it does I wont accuse EVERY SINGLE REF OF CHEATING, in any case how can that happen EVERY SINGLE REF IS CHEATING TO ENSURE NZ WINS, IF WE HAD A FRENCH REF IN THE FINAL HE WOULD ALSO CHEAT SO FRANCE LOST
15 Oct 2011, 14:46 pm
@NZINCHINA(NZINCHINA)-38:
You’re sounding terse and uppity. Whazuuup…nerves frayed to bursting point.
15 Oct 2011, 14:46 pm
@surreyshark4(surreyshark4)-16: I agree . This French team are poor and struggled to beat a 14 man Welsh team who did all the attacking. The French never looked like scoring a try. They were not only beaten by Tonga but well beaten.
Having said that Wales had every chance to take out the match and couldn’t take the opportunities offered. Thats test match rugby.
I always believed SA would lose to the Aussies . They are one dimensional and when their forwards cant win a match up front and take the penalties on offer they have no other game plan. NZ and Australia have far more strings to their bow and deserve to go further in the competition. SA need to get a back line. They are twenty years behind in that regard.
15 Oct 2011, 14:48 pm
gatland… (pronounce hid name in afrikaans for my opinion of him…)
it was a dangerous tip-tackle no question… roeland was correct to red card him no question…
gatland suck it up… don’t blame the ref… blame your captain…
also for those saying he didn’t drive the guy into the ground… just look how his left hand pushed the french guy’s face to the side… looked pretty forceful to me…
also… can we imagine the outcry if roeland did NOT card warburton…? and then the players thought it’s open season and they must play the refs interpretations… ?and tip-tackles happen all over the place…? and then someone did get hurt?
well done to roeland for simply applying the law…
BTW… the ref never lost the game for the Boks either… we had our chances to win… but didn’t take them…
off to newlands…
15 Oct 2011, 14:48 pm
@Alucard(Alucard)-39:
how can you say such a thing i’m mortified, she does whine less than you though
@The Bill(The Bill)-40:
it was a red card for a spare tackle
15 Oct 2011, 14:49 pm
@lapoftherugbygods(lapoftherugbygods)-43:
….or a coach that has a clue.
15 Oct 2011, 14:49 pm
@Great White Shark(Predawn)-29: dingleberry nice ring to it gruff nut , thats pretty obvious, maybe you should have a look at the standards of reffing in this world cup under the auspices of paddy o brian, inconsistent, one eyed, badly managed – plenty of examples, if you are going to consistently apply the laws of the game you need the help of your touch judges, he didn’t even consult them, thus what makes it look premeditated! Perception is reality, therefore reality isn’t really the truth!
15 Oct 2011, 14:50 pm
@Great White Shark(Predawn)-42:
no im just laughing at the poor excuses for rugby supporters on this site what a joke pathetic
15 Oct 2011, 14:51 pm
@lapoftherugbygods(lapoftherugbygods)-43: The Boks had two tries dotted down and a third break for a guaranteed try was disallowed. That’s three tries and 21 points. You are incorrect in your assesment. And just before Steenkamps try an Aussie took Brussow out off the ball. Yellow card. Many arms round throats too, yellow card. Repeatedly handling the ball in the ruck, yellow card. that match was reffed into Aussie hands. Simple as that. Wales never looked like really winning it. I wasn’t surprised to see those missed kicks. They simply were an overhyped side that never had enough to break France down from start to finish.
15 Oct 2011, 14:52 pm
@NZINCHINA(NZINCHINA)-48: No poor excuses, valid reasons for being upset with AOTHER results taken from us. Here’s ANOTHER example. And surprise, surprise, it’s against the rats from mud (now rubbly) island. No doubt you have a mountain of EXCUSES to defend it rat boy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdr-W775hk4&list=PLD2EAF9004A1B70A9&index=18
15 Oct 2011, 14:53 pm
@Alucard(Alucard)-49:
stop whining soft co ck
15 Oct 2011, 14:54 pm
@NZINCHINA(NZINCHINA)-45: pretty rich coming from a kiwi, a nation which claims to have been cheated out of every world cup/or at least every second one since 87, great teams win close games i agree, but you need the fair application of the law!
15 Oct 2011, 14:54 pm
@surreyshark4(surreyshark4)-47: Can you spell c r a p.
In what world does not consulting your touch judges make it a premeditated.
99.8% of decisions are made without consultation.
Read the rule that has been posted above, if you cannot grasp it, not sure what can be done.
If you don’t like the rule, you can write to the IRB.
Roeland, was 100% right. Warburton is the person who got it wrong.
15 Oct 2011, 14:54 pm
Really funny that after the Boks got done a lot of Kiwi and Aussie fans said that Bryce Lawrence interpreted the laws and the Boks should have adapted to his interpretation. Now those same people are saying that Rolland had to stick to the letter of the law and it is not open to interpretation. Talk about having your cake and eating it! It must be nice playing against opposition knowing your indiscretion will be interpreted but your opposition will be judged in black and white! Laughable!
15 Oct 2011, 14:54 pm
@NZINCHINA(NZINCHINA)-48:
RWC games are sometimes won or lost by forward passes, penalty kicks and penalty kicks missed. Oz fluked a game, as did the Boks and France….it’s the nature of the game…but yes…there has to be reffing consistency.
On a brighter note, the South African refs have been nothing less than outstanding in this RWC. At least we were good at something.
15 Oct 2011, 14:55 pm
@Alucard(Alucard)-50:
I have to go, your whining is making me ill, the big boys are playing tomorrow i’m sure you’ll enjoy it…
15 Oct 2011, 14:57 pm
@NZINCHINA(NZINCHINA)-56: No answer for it? Then just say so rat boy. Typically coward NZ running away.
15 Oct 2011, 14:57 pm
@JEZ(DEE DAH)-54:
Everyone knows that Rolland is one of the strictest referees in world rugby. The Welsh should have known better.
15 Oct 2011, 15:01 pm
Seriously! The team that lost two of its pool games and one to Tonga is in the final!? How serious can you take world cups anyway?
15 Oct 2011, 15:01 pm
58
Still doesn’t explain why refs interpret some sides indiscretions and others get no leeway! Rolland went red and the game as a fair contest was ruined. The tackle was reckless fair enough but it wasn’t dangerous and there was no intent. I know according to the laws that makes no odds but I guarantee if Richie McCaw did that he might have got yellow at absolute worst.
15 Oct 2011, 15:03 pm
Or has everyone forgotten Jon Smit being body slammed by Thorn in front of the ref? An act after the whistle that injured the Bok captain, if Schalk Burger did that it would have been red but Brad Thorn didn’t even give a penalty away.
15 Oct 2011, 15:04 pm
@The Bill(The Bill)-53: bit longer than c r a p , but can you spell application, that is what LAW is about the fair application of the law, and would hotly dispute your fact 99.8 of RED cards are issued without consultation! as the say 76% of statistics are made up on the spot or was it 96%
15 Oct 2011, 15:04 pm
@JEZ(DEE DAH)-60:
That’s cos everyone is trying to help the Kwis to a RWC final. It’s like letting the Down Syndrome boy win the race.
15 Oct 2011, 15:10 pm
lets talk about perception, the overriding perception of this world cup will be one that the refs were involved in the final outcomes of close/big games, that will end up being Paddy’s legacy, we may have been lucky in 2007 in not having to play anyone to win it, but at least we did beat everyone we played, even with appalling refs and citing comms, do we remember Schalks banning for going for a ball!!!
15 Oct 2011, 15:11 pm
GO LIVERPOOL!!!!!!
15 Oct 2011, 15:12 pm
63
I don’t believe there is a conspiracy favouring anybody but I do believe that certain sides are subconsciously given more leeway than others by referee’s. The Boks tend to be hammered by refs and citing commissioners but a Kiwi for instance would have to bugger an officials wife before he faced any sanction of consequence.
15 Oct 2011, 15:12 pm
63
I don’t believe there is a conspiracy favouring anybody but I do believe that certain sides are subconsciously given more leeway than others by referee’s. The Boks tend to be hammered by refs and citing commissioners but a Kiwi for instance would have to bottomfuck an officials wife before he faced any sanction of consequence.
15 Oct 2011, 15:14 pm
Sorry for the double post but original was rejected so I did some creative editing and both appeared! My Bad!
15 Oct 2011, 15:17 pm
@surreyshark4(surreyshark4)-64: Actually we beat the form teams of te WC. Had we played Australia it would have been a walk over, New Zealand also played very poorly. No, we were actually not fortunate in 2007, we ended up playing the best sides.
15 Oct 2011, 15:19 pm
@surreyshark4(surreyshark4)-62: Well if that is your problem, bithc about it when the refs don’t penalise when they should, don’t . The ref is right in this case, the other occassions they are wrong.
That is where Paddy is falling down.
15 Oct 2011, 15:24 pm
@The Bill(The Bill)-70: 2 QUESTIONS
1) HOW MANY TACKLES HAVE YOU SEEN IN THIS WORLD CUP AS BAD AS THE WALES ONE?
2) HOW MANY RED CARDS HAVE BEEN DISHED OUT FOR THE ABOVE MENTIONED TACKLES?
MY ANSWERS
1) AT LEAST 5
2) NONE-
SO either the ref got it wrong this am or in many previous games
15 Oct 2011, 15:43 pm
It is not as if the French no 14 was dropped on a concrete floor.It was soft and yielding.Look at the French maul close to the Wales try line.
Wales player pulls is down and as reward gets trampled deliberately by
French forwards, The penalty should have been reversed.
Both incidents constituted dangerous play and in both yellow cards should
have resulted. Now two of the best teams Wales and South Africa have
sent packing as result of the two opposites, South Africa by Bryce Lawrence
lackadaisical handling of the Australia/South Africa match and Alain Rolland
seeing red.
Both incidents happened in front of the Assistant referees,but they may only
comment of things happening behind the referee’s back and not on what is happening in front of him as if is now all seeing.
Rugby needs to grow and attract more supporters and players but this won’t
happen if referees are allowed to determine the outcome of the game.
15 Oct 2011, 15:44 pm
What a game… I enjoyed every nail-biting bit!
15 Oct 2011, 15:45 pm
@surreyshark4(surreyshark4)-71: Simple, they should ALL have been carded! The reason why they dont is because “nobody wants to see a game disrupted by cards” rather than having a fairly reffed game. Refs have become conductors, calling it as they see fit to have the game pan out how they like. Rugby is very quickly becoming a soap opera as opposed to a real sport. Refs need to be sorted out very quickly. Not only are there dozens of different, ahem, interpretations, but they never apply these ‘interpretations’ evenly. It’s very poor.
15 Oct 2011, 15:50 pm
@Brentie1(Brentie1)-72: Wales have themselves to blame. Hard as it may be for you to believe, but a player landing on grass, on his neck, can very easily die, or be paralysed for life. It’s by far the worst and most ignorant thing you can possibly do. It was a straight red and rightly so. If wales want to complain, then they must direct their grievances towards Warburton. He is supposed to be their leader, but was the prize ******* pulling off a tip tackle. He left the ref no option. That other incidents have been let off is no excuse to defend this either, all such tackles must be carded and more. And to be fair, this one was the worst of the tourmant. Yachvilli landed right on the back of his neck.
15 Oct 2011, 15:52 pm
I thought the decision was very harsh. It deserved a yellow but in a World Cup semi final sending a player off for the game should only be done in extreme cases. Whether it was the right decision or not the result is a very undeserving team who has lost 2 games is now in a position to win the whole damn thing. A 14 man Welsh team still almost beat this French team and when you remember what happened to the boks a few years ago against England when we played with 14 men shows how much guts the Welsh played with but also how poor this French team is.
15 Oct 2011, 16:00 pm
@malcolm(malcolm)-76: Like I say, the ref followed the rules for once. Nobody forced Warburton to dump Yachvilli. He committed the crime and was punished. Imagine if I “accidentally” killed someone by punching them. “I neva ment 2 do nuffin serius” is not going to hold up in court. Intent is one thing, but the end results is the same. Warburton was given the rightful measure of punishment. The only people supporting him are those that hate the French or who wanted the Welsh to win. It’s complete folly.
15 Oct 2011, 16:04 pm
@Alucard(Alucard)-77: If you accidentally kill someone by punching him you will be convicted of manslaughter (a yellow card) not murder (a red card). It has nothing to do with hating the French. They have had some great teams over the years. But this French team is poor and does not deserve to be anywhere near the finals.
15 Oct 2011, 16:29 pm
@malcolm(malcolm)-78: I agree that France are poor, but Wales are very much overhyped. All their praise is based on a game against the Boks, a game where the Boks had an injury crisis. They exploited Butch out of position. That was it. They also had the ref in their pocket, which made it very difficult to play ourselves into their half, yet in spite of all of this, they lost, and got close only through an illegal try. I don’t support the view that France should not be allowed to the final. They have not involved in any controversy thus far and have not had any ref in their corner, so I cannot complain. They are there and that’s all that matters. The Welsh shot themselves in the foot, and in all likelihood blew the best opportunity they’ll ever have of winning a WC, seeing as NZ are so shoddy and Australia so painfully one dimensional.
15 Oct 2011, 16:32 pm
Crash n burn Wales !
15 Oct 2011, 16:38 pm
watching Mortals play this silly game is so positively
B O R I N G !
15 Oct 2011, 16:40 pm
That Frog was 2cm away from being paralyzed … that was a sickening tackle but what made it worse was that dragon trying to slam the Frogs face into the dirt while he was on his way down. That was a deliberate attempt to hurt somebody by that dragon thug, red card was the correct call.
15 Oct 2011, 16:46 pm
On the “France Profit…” thread:
583.Black Panther:
15 Oct 2011, 16:42 pm watching the Mortals run about this this deranged enthusiasm for spastic folk dancing is thoroughly amusing
Reading you repeat yourself [in an unintelligible fashion] IS boring.
15 Oct 2011, 16:47 pm
He released the player.
Never a red card.
Only an irrational idiot would think it deserved red.
15 Oct 2011, 16:48 pm
THE most ridiculous Red Card in a game played by mere Mortals since Adam was a non mythical sub character in an unnecessarily long Cli Che aracterisation of Gallic ambushes
15 Oct 2011, 16:51 pm
O fo’k here’s Thinus Delport on Sky sports saying it’s now a “rebuilding phase for the Boks to build for 2015.”
Not a chance.
Screw 2015 we want to win the 4N in 2012, and the next year and the next, and then we will worry about 2015.
None of this “building towards the World Cup” stuff, thank you very much.
15 Oct 2011, 16:51 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-84: were you not the sharkievarkie calling for a red card when Bambie was spear tackled by an islanders.
15 Oct 2011, 16:52 pm
What’s with the mortals business
15 Oct 2011, 16:52 pm
The Game they play in Heaven
bb b b b b b b b wwww W A A A A A AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH H H H H H H HHHHH !
15 Oct 2011, 16:53 pm
Save us
Another keyboard mess ******
15 Oct 2011, 16:56 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-84:
Okay doodums calm down.
15 Oct 2011, 16:56 pm
@RL(RL)-87: you like to make up things don’t you?
Weren’t you the thick dut*hman crying for his momma when the Boks were knocked out?
15 Oct 2011, 16:57 pm
Must be the way you tell jokes.
15 Oct 2011, 16:58 pm
@Great White Shark(Predawn)-91: I’m pretty sure you clicked on the wrong arrow.
15 Oct 2011, 16:59 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-92: not me, I was celebrating the demise of Plod … and you sharkievarkies look alike to me, so there is a chance that you were the culprit.
15 Oct 2011, 17:00 pm
@Alucard(Alucard)-79: Wales were very good against the Irish as well the side that beat the Aussies. All round I thought Wales played some of the best rugby in the World Cup.
15 Oct 2011, 17:01 pm
@RL(RL)-87:
‘Bambie’ as you call him, was one of the stars in the Bok team and I bet you screamed like a girl when he made that try saving tackle on the Samoan in the groups stage match.
Admit it, you have fantasies about him.
15 Oct 2011, 17:03 pm
@Great White Shark(Predawn)-91:
I’m just being an irrational idiot thinking that almost breaking someones back is acceptable.
15 Oct 2011, 17:05 pm
Pienaar said it best.
“Dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport.”
15 Oct 2011, 17:07 pm
@RL(RL)-95:
So even men and women look alike to you? What do you mullet wearers drink there in Gautengaleng…Klippies and diesel.
15 Oct 2011, 17:45 pm
I fully endorse the following extract from True Blue NZ.
“Referees and rules are destroying rugby. The IRB is a bureaucratic disaster and should be disbanded. One of the worst outcomes of its management is that games are now won or lost based on the capricious judgments of referees and their wildly changing approaches to the rules.”
Regarding the red card of the Welsh Captain. Did it deserve a red card?
The french no 14 suffered no visible side effects and played on as if nothing
had happened,In my opinion to red card a player in the first 20 minutes
is a harsh decision and deprived millions of spectators of a good game
of rugby.
We now have the farcical position that a team that has lost two of its pool games now will contest the final while two of the best teams South Africa and Wales have been sent packing both with the assistance of the referees.
Surely the aim should be to structure the competition so that the best teams
make to the final. Warburton and Alain Rolland in my opinion suffered
both from brain explosions, Warburton saw blue and Rolland red.
15 Oct 2011, 18:43 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-84: If you don’t know the rules, don’t comment.
You have to assit the player down, if you don’t ref must start at red & then work backwards.
The only person at fault here is Warburton (& you)
15 Oct 2011, 18:47 pm
remember the 3N last year when Quade Cooper and Jaque Fourie got yellow carded for tip tackles… i’ve always presumed that tip tackles are yellow cards, cause that’s what refs mostly give for them?
15 Oct 2011, 18:48 pm
@102 The Bill You would have been better served if you said if you don’t know the laws,don’t comment.Rules are rulings of how the laws should be applied.
15 Oct 2011, 18:55 pm
@The Bill(The Bill)-102: The Bill,
Thank you so much for your [condescending] post. I am amazed that you isolated mine out of the other 101 posts.
Nevertheless, my comment was actually aimed at the post 2 above mine, where the [particularly dof] poster suggested that Warburton intentionally “slam[med] the Frogs face into the dirt while he was on his way down. That was a deliberate attempt to hurt somebody by that dragon thug, red card was the correct call.”
I was pointing out the obvious inaccuracy of this [dof] post.
I will spell it out very clearly for you though as you missed it the first time around:
No, the red card was not for “a deliberate attempt to hurt somebody” by “slam[ming] a face into the dirt”. The Welsh player actually released the French player.
Feel better now?
P.S. that was still never a red card.
Now have a hot bath with candles and and scented salts and relax. It sounds like you need it big guy.
15 Oct 2011, 19:07 pm
@Troedels(Troedels)-8: exactly the point, the french won so its the refs fault for the red card. If wales won refs fault again for giving the penalty. what is interesting is that all SA fans can see this but still hold the ref responsible for our exit vs Aus. fact is that blaming a ref is like holding your wifes lover responsible. its an issue but its not the real issue. The real issue for Wales is that they missed 4 kicks, 3 of them fairly straightforward. and for the Boks it was that we didnt change the tactics, and that we kept Bismarck (Smit), Hougaard (Habana) and Alberts (Spies) on the bench when their presence on the field would have been the difference between winning and losing a 2 point game
15 Oct 2011, 19:12 pm
@The Bill(The Bill)-102: Yeah, rules are rules, the one ref applies them to the full while another doesn’t apply them at all
15 Oct 2011, 19:16 pm
i don’t understand this “it’s wales fault cause they missed penalties” thing. they were playing with 14 men for 60 minutes, this is a pretty darn big contributing factor. i think sometimes people just take this stance to appear anti-whinging, but at the expense of common sense; sometimes it is the refs fault.
15 Oct 2011, 19:40 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-105: Not sure that ‘deliberate attempt to hurt someone’ is in the rules.
What is the rules that you cannot tip tackle someone without helping them down.
Did he lift him off his feet?
Did he tip him throught the 90 degrees?
Did he assist him down?
That is what the rule states. Guidance issued also says that refs should start at red & then if there is a reason to go to yellow, then you can. He had no reason to go to yellow (he did not assist him down).
Fact is that the ref called it like the rules said. The previous conentencious calls were not called correctly, is that AR’s fault?
It was a red & was the right call. As I said earlier in the thread, if you don’t like it, lobby the IRB to change the rules, not the ref for blowing the rules.
P.S, I have said similar to previous posters, I just shocked so many fans don’t know the framework in which the game is played.
15 Oct 2011, 19:42 pm
@Kea-Cat(KEA)-107: Yup, and that is why everyone thinks Paddy O’B is such a nob. He can’t control 20 or so people deemed to be at the top of their game at the WC.
15 Oct 2011, 19:48 pm
@The Bill(The Bill)-109: Bottom line to all this is that probably the least deserving team in the history of team sports (I do not think I am exaggerating) has made in to the final of a major competition. Ridiculous!
15 Oct 2011, 19:56 pm
@fantasticbarnsmell(fantasticbarnsmell)-108: of course they lost because of the red card. But that doesnt change the fact that it was a deserved red card. The point I was making is that even despite the red Wales would have won if they converted some of their kicks
15 Oct 2011, 19:59 pm
@The Bill(The Bill)-109: then they need to change the “framework”.
Dancing is a contact sport; rugby is a collision sport.
15 Oct 2011, 20:05 pm
@malcolm(malcolm)-111: Can’t disagree.
15 Oct 2011, 20:06 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-113: Can’t disagree.
They also need to get consistency with the refs.
If the players knew what they were going to get, they would probably not do it.
15 Oct 2011, 20:44 pm
It definitely merited a yellow card, and if the rules say a red card, so be it. However, watching the game thereafter was an anti-climx. The game was spoilt as a contest, and Wales did dam well to do as they did. I would petition the IRB to change the rules and sanction the player, but not the team as a whole. Send the player off, but allow a reserve to come on in his place – that way the act is punished, appropriately, but the spectacle for the millions of viewers around the world is not diminished. The spectators want a contest, and are paying good money to see one.
The TV ref should alos be allowed to immediately begin viewing red and yellow card decisions and weigh in with advice before actual sending off takes place. There is invariably time between the offending act and the moment of sending off so the flow of the game would not be held up if the TV ref could immediately begin viewing. We have the technology, why not use it?
15 Oct 2011, 20:51 pm
@bokke_bo(bokke_bo)-112: ah okay sorry, point taken…
15 Oct 2011, 22:05 pm
Coulda, shoulda, woulda…
Looks at the scoreboard.
The End.
15 Oct 2011, 22:06 pm
I bet in Samoa they’re probably wondering what the fuss is all about. They would finish most games with about 10 men if reffed correctly to the letter of the law.
15 Oct 2011, 22:30 pm
many kiwis have said before the tournament that the WC is not the measure of the best rugby team in the world… this WC highlights that fact even more so!
glad my team, regardless of the result today, is the one team that hasnt fallen into the “building for the WC” cliche, because as we have all seen, you can be the better team in the WC and lose “on the day” due to a variety of reasons..
much rather an 80% win record thanks..
15 Oct 2011, 22:57 pm
@poppa69(poppa69)-120: Hi Poppa, how are you mate, massive one tonight, Can’t help but think you guys are going to win,
My 2 Cents on last night, definitely a red card offence, dangerous and stupid tackle, French looked really really C R A P, They’ll need to lift a gear next week because either you or us is going to give them a hiding,
May the best team win mate
15 Oct 2011, 22:57 pm
@poppa69(poppa69)-120: Not so, this World Cup is unlike any other. The IRB has overstapped the mark with ref empowerment. They’ve created a monster. In fact, this entire cycle of rugby has been a disastrous mess. They’ve tinkered too much with the game and their desired enforcement on play style has failed. All fingers must be pointed to the IRB. Just look at this years S15, the sloppiest year of Super rugby I have ever seen. Rugby is no longer the sport it once was, not the sport I fell in love with as a youngster. It’s badly managed, corrupt and so hungry for money that it’s left, particularly the SH game, a washed up, boring excuse for what used to be something special. This may be the very last year of rugby that I ever watch. I predicted this world cup would end up like this, I had my doubts to the extent of that prediction, but it’s unfolded to the very letter. Watching this tournamnt unfold as it has has been painful. No longer do players fight it out to win, the ref is the conductor, and the players dance to his tune. He decides how the narrative plays out. How very sad. I used to insult football for being like this, but low and beyold rugby finds itself in the same lowly gutter.
15 Oct 2011, 23:05 pm
know this was big news a few weeks back, but it seems tew may have had a point??
Even though there is little love among national unions for Beaumount’s (England) RFU organisation, the move is likely to be strongly supported by the Sanzar unions of New Zealand, Australia and South Africa who say competing in World Cups collectively costs them NZ$50 million in lost revenue. Beaumont also seems poised to gain the support of the International Rugby Players’ Association who are also unhappy with the IRB consistently shunning player input into the World Cup model.
For the first time since NZRU chief executive Steve Tew publicised long-held objections to the IRB’s commercial model, it appears northern hemisphere unions are also prepared to join an open fight for change.
Chairman of the International Rugby Players’ Association, Damian Hopley, said it’s only a matter of time before more national unions go public with their opposition too.
Hopley, who is also chief executive of England’s Rugby Players’ Association, says players the world over want change from the IRB and the push from the Sanzar unions was gathering momentum among the northern rugby community.
15 Oct 2011, 23:15 pm
@SAussie/QldRed(SAussie)-121: should be a cracker of a game mate, lets hope the players decide the outcome
agree about the decision last night after watching it a few more times… but if Wales had made better use of their chances then we wouldnt be talking about a correct decision costing a team a place in the final…
@Alucard(Alucard)-122: rugby has been like this since the amateur era… its just under scrutiny now because of the advances in technology, what with instant replays that can be slowed to frame by frame… there are many legends in reference to poor ref decisions IN the amateur era too… Andy hadens “leap” from the lineout, the extended “flourbomb” test etc .. whether your view is from one side of the fence or the other..
15 Oct 2011, 23:20 pm
Poor ol’ Craig Joubert.
Who’d wanna be him!
15 Oct 2011, 23:29 pm
Cruden to freeze in the headlights. But AB’s to go through and then take the final. In just two games those men in black could get a lot of “closure” for their nation. Perfect script, Walla’s in semi, French in final.
15 Oct 2011, 23:34 pm
@umfolozi(umfolozi)-126: Nothing I want more than for these cheats to get knocked out. Then for Australia to be dumped in the final. Neither side deserves anything out of this World Cup.
15 Oct 2011, 23:35 pm
To be fair, a yellow card should have been dished out instead of the red. But at the same time, the refs could have been told that their is a zero tolerance against spear tackles and a red must be given. They usually are more strict at a world cup tournament.
Stupid thing for a player to do anyway. Only stupid players do that without thinking about the consequences. You can hurt an opponent in the tackle a lot better if you slam them into the ground with a normal tackle between the upper legs and chest anyway.
France were lackluster again, but pulled it through against 14 man Wales. The fact is Wales would have won if they didn’t miss so many kicks at goal. You have to take your opportunities…
Seems like France only play well every 2 matches. That could count in their favour in the final.
Anyway, I’d prefer NZ to lose tomorrow.
15 Oct 2011, 23:36 pm
@Alucard(Alucard)-127: Stomp on McCheat’s foot and the match is half won already for the Wallabies.
15 Oct 2011, 23:36 pm
@umfolozi(umfolozi)-126: can’t help think your right, One thing’s for sure, they’ll earn it
Guess if the AB’s do win then you’ll find something else to bag the Kiwi’s with, I’m sure you’ll think of something
15 Oct 2011, 23:40 pm
Referee obviously
15 Oct 2011, 23:46 pm
@Alucard(Alucard)-127: will that help ease your obvious hurt at your heroes being ingloriously dumped out after failing to be able to construct a decent backline movement?
with that much ball, like us kiwis heard for four years, why didnt they set up for a drop goal? it was stupid play from the Bokke, who had ample opportunity to win it..
continue crying though, it seems there is justice in the universe when SA cop exactly what they deride NZ for… just an observation..
15 Oct 2011, 23:51 pm
must say, guess it proves how lop sided the 07 tourny was..
imagine it..
fiji/argentina/ eng top win the WC..
compared to
Eng/Wales/ABs or Aussie
Argentina/Wallas/France
SA/ABs/France..
2007 doesnt really compare does it, yet there was no outrage at the standard of reffing then, just a chorus of “suck it up NZ”.
funny how things come full circle..
heard kleenex are building a new factory in SA, seems they cant keep up with demand for their extra soft tissues
15 Oct 2011, 23:54 pm
@TheTackler(TheTackler)-118:
That’s what YOU said after the 1/4 against France in 2007, wasn’t it?
15 Oct 2011, 23:59 pm
@SAussie/QldRed(SAussie)-130:
I’m quite at peace with NZ winning this one. Heck it’s been a long time coming and would square it nicely to two WC wins each between the top three sides in the world.
16 Oct 2011, 00:04 am
@umfolozi(umfolozi)-135: NZ have to go through two teams who have always troubled them at WC’s…
still a lot of rugby to be played, and the bounce of the ball can be very cruel… will be one nervous kiwi during the game..
16 Oct 2011, 00:07 am
@malcolm(malcolm)-111:
Denmark (I think) won a European soccer champions in the late 90′s (I think), after they did not even qualify for the championship during the qualification rounds. They only took part because some country (who already qualified) were suspended by FIFA due to political interference.
Greece, became the European champs in 2004(?). They’ll never be regarded as a top soccer country in Europe despite that victory.. How deserving was that?
That is just the nature of knock out tournaments. Not always a reflection of what team is the best.
16 Oct 2011, 00:12 am
Hard to shout for either old rival, my sister in Nelson says I gotta support the blacks but battling
16 Oct 2011, 00:14 am
As I said last week, Quade Cooper had two iffy games in his previous two matches. He is bound to bounce back and cause all sorts of problems for the opposition. He only has tomorrow to do that or he, and his team, has to go home.
AB’s, beware.
16 Oct 2011, 00:18 am
@poppa69(poppa69)-136:
I never bought into the hype surrounding Aus going into the WC with a lot of people punting them. In a way they are a bit like France at the moment in that you don’t know which team is going to turn up on the day. Although Aus dug deep against SA, any team that has lost to both Samoa and Ireland in recent weeks has serious fragility and are far from the finished article. And this France team is far from vintage as well. AB’s playing at home really should be about 15 points clear of both these teams and will surely never get a better shot at “closure”
16 Oct 2011, 00:25 am
@The Bill(The Bill)-102:
“You have to assit the player down, if you don’t ref must start at red …”
John Smit? Was he assisted “down” in 2009 vs the All Blacks? Did the offender got a red? For me there is not much difference between that tackle and the one today or did you see any mitigation circumstances back then?
Come on. At least admit that these kind of decisions are up to the discretion of the ref in some way.
16 Oct 2011, 00:27 am
Well ole Ma Panther reckons it “was a disgusting tackle” and that she “doesnt want her Grandsons playing if thats how they tackle”
And ole Ma Panther is not to be crossed with.
16 Oct 2011, 00:38 am
@nama1(nama1)-137: I do not see the similarity. Denmark may not have qualified and got lucky to make the tournament but then they went on to play above themselves and win. Greece although not considered a world power in soccer did the same thing. They played their hearts out and maxmised what limited ability they had to win the tournament. The French came to the rugby world cup with on paper one of the top 5 teams. They then proceeded to lose 2 pool matches nearly lost to Japan and then in the semis with 15 men against 14 for most of the match managed to beat Wales by one point. There is no way a team like this should be playing for the cup next week.
16 Oct 2011, 00:39 am
@Black Panther(Black Panther)-142:
Do you seriously think anyone gives a sh it?
16 Oct 2011, 00:40 am
@umfolozi(umfolozi)-140: agree with you about Aus, there 3 wins in 14 against the ABs recently highlights this, but I think every team finds an extra 5 or 10 percent when they come up against the ABs…
it is our best opportunity, but have been burnt many times before, so will cheer the boys on whatever happens
16 Oct 2011, 00:43 am
As much As I feel sorry for Wales, I also feel that they should put this match behind them as quickly as possible. They had a few chances to win this game despite the refs’ decision (much like SA last week). They had everything in their favour despite being 14 vs 15:
*possession;
*territory;
*fewer tackles made
For them to concentrate on one “wrong” decision by the ref will not change the outcome of the match.Rather start to prepare, psychologically, for the bronze medal game vs the loser of tomorrows match next weekend.
*Btw, I also think the tackle only warrant a yellow card.
16 Oct 2011, 00:51 am
@malcolm(malcolm)-143:
Look, I agree that they don’t deserve to be crowned as world champs if they should go ahead and win this thing. I was just pointing out that the nature of a knock out tournament is such that it is not always the most deserving team that win it. Hence my reference to Denmark and Greece.
The history with which you come to a tournament such as this, means nothing. If it did, the All Blacks would have been champs more than the one time that they actually were, don’t you think?
16 Oct 2011, 00:52 am
@poppa69(poppa69)-145: Good Luck and here’s hoping no-one mentions the ref after the game (Like that’s gonna happen!)
16 Oct 2011, 00:54 am
@poppa69(poppa69)-145:
I don’t think the Aussies will look back that far back re their past performances vs the AB’s.
2/3 will serve them just fine as a means to motivate themselves for tomorrow.
16 Oct 2011, 00:55 am
If the rules /laws (for pedantic folk) say “if X happens then red card” and the ref applies them consistently, then I have no problem.
But Bryce lawrence was not only ignoring rules that the IRB had put out specific directive about the whole season, but was also applying them inconsistently.
As an example, one minute he awards aus a scrum when they helding a bok player up, and then the maul went to ground. The irb had issued a directive to say that such situations should be blown up quickly (maybe for safety reasons) to teh team holding the player up. No problem with this.
BUT less than two minutes later, he blows against the Boks when the opposite situation occurred, with Bissie holding up O Connor- when teh ball was even coming out at our side. quickly, and advantage should have applied. He is as crooked and dirty as hell.
16 Oct 2011, 01:02 am
@umfolozi(umfolozi)-148: cheers, dont worry, Im sure all sporting fans everywhere like to find reasons other than admit their team wasnt good enough on the day
@nama1(nama1)-149: yeah youre right, but the ABs will look at their Eden park victory and the second half at Brissy to understand where and how they can win this game today…
16 Oct 2011, 01:10 am
@malcolm(malcolm)-143:
To complete my responxe:
How “least deserving” can you be if you did not even qualify for a tournament after playing all the qualifying rounds, then only got invited because of other stuff only to then go on and win the tournament?
You should’ve been at home watching the games on TV?
At least France had a chance from the get go. Their poor performances, during the tournamen,t notwithstanding. As I said, that is just the nature of a knock out tournament.
16 Oct 2011, 01:18 am
@poppa69(poppa69)-151:
They’ll have to because I think we’ll see a different Aus team than the one we saw last week against the Boks.
A question. Last week it was evident that both teams played a kind of rugby not usually associated with them. A tactic that is more associated with Bok rugby where you try and play without the ball and pound on the mistakes of your opponent.
France did the same against Wales today. You only have to look at the possession and tackle stats to determune that fact.
How do you think the AB’s will approach the game tomorrow?
16 Oct 2011, 01:27 am
@poppa69(poppa69)-151: good luck to the ABs for today’s game, hope your guys can go all the way
16 Oct 2011, 01:35 am
Fantasticbarns. cheers.
Nama. I think the ABs will attack the fringes, targeting QC all day even if he drops back to FB. Do think it will be a ball in hand approach rather than territorial. loss of Beale may induce more Garry Owens from the ABs though.
16 Oct 2011, 01:36 am
Nama. I also think last weeks game may hinder the wallabies through the effort exerted, well hoping may be a better word.
16 Oct 2011, 03:34 am
@nama1(nama1)-152: That happens in sport all the time. In tennis or golf if a player withdraws he/she is replaced by someone else. If that someone else actually goes on to win that is incredible not undeserving.
16 Oct 2011, 06:30 am
Well NZ, wee Paddy o’ b’s got you this far. Now you have to play some rugby. Good luck.
16 Oct 2011, 08:12 am
I said prefer last night’s game that I prefer to meet France and not just because it is an easier game.
I think the statement from Marc Lièvremont about wanting to play us sums up why.
16 Oct 2011, 08:14 am
@husky(husky)-158:
What a sore loser. You are a joke. Enjoy the final.
16 Oct 2011, 08:36 am
@husky(husky)-158:
stick your good lucks up ya sore loser a$$.
16 Oct 2011, 08:49 am
You have to admit – POB did all your dirty work for you, didn’t he?
Have your say
You must be logged in to post a comment.