SA linked to rebel league
14 Nov 2011
South African franchises have been a linked with European plans to create a global rugby tournament in the near future.
According to The Guardian, there are secret plans being made among Europe’s richest clubs to establish a breakaway tournament, which would include South African franchises. The UK newspaper also confirmed that there are separate proposals to create a world club championship, which would include the champions of the English Premiership, Pro12 and French Top 14 and European Cup, as well as the winners of Super Rugby and the respective Australian, New Zealand and South African logs.
It is believed that only money is the issue stopping these plans. The European Cup is run by the European Rugby Cup Ltd, which acts on behalf of the unions involved. The tournament’s turnover has doubled in five years to just over €50m (about R545m) but there are many who believe the competition is capable of generating far more.
Frustrated clubs are aware the existing five-year ERC accord ends in June, although any stakeholder wishing to exit the tournament is still required to give two years’ notice. All the tournament’s major TV contracts expire in 2014 and Heineken’s title sponsorship deal runs until 2013. The strict salary cap in England remains a further bone of contention for millionaire club owners who, despite the economic turmoil across Europe, are seeking to expand.
‘From an English and French clubs’ point of view the European Cup is a growing competition but it is essentially controlled by the unions and played by the clubs,’ said an anonymous prominent club figure. ‘There are some English and French clubs who do not regard that as an ideal situation. There is also a growing weariness in South Africa with Sanzar [South Africa, New Zealand and Australia Rugby]. They feel they’re at a playing disadvantage by constantly having to travel and, despite having more commercial pulling power, do not get a proportionally bigger share of the revenue. They feel South Africa is subsidising Australia and New Zealand, which are relatively small markets.’
In a recent interview with SA Rugby magazine, Saracens CEO Edward Griffiths echoed the same sentiments. Saracens will take their European Cup tie against Biarritz to Cape Town in January.
‘I’’m not sure if that will be possible and whether the IRB will allow it [a global club competition], but I do believe new competition structures need to be implemented. The English clubs are suffering major losses. There was a total loss of R300 million from all clubs after last season, so there needs to be some changes made,’ said Griffiths.
‘It would be a positive step for South African franchises to join forces with European clubs. The time zone is similar and it’s easier to travel to London and Paris than it is to Sydney or Auckland. This would make it easier for all clubs and franchises to earn a profit while it will also create a fresh and appealing spectacle for fan.’
161 Comments
14 Nov 2011, 16:24 pm
Go NORTH Dragons
14 Nov 2011, 16:25 pm
This was also in the UK Rugby Paper…
Things getting interesting.
Its one helluva bargaining chip.
14 Nov 2011, 17:21 pm
Our rugby would go slip backwards.
Doubt we will go.
Money does talk though, just hope we stay in the south.
Somehow think the north need us more than we need them.
14 Nov 2011, 17:40 pm
@puma. I think you might have been correct 10 years ago, but SA need to protect two things. The Currie Cup and our players. The constant expansion of the SH tournaments is very bad for our players’ careers. The WC this year showed it and the SH can be very grateful we have the depth as aus, sa and nz started to lose all their players.
You must remember that while it is true what you said about the NH needing SA, it is even more necessary for aus and nz to incorporate SA into their tournaments. How many people watched the final of the NPC this year?
I say let’s deal with Europe, as a cross continental tournament will not be the only thing they have. This will give SA the chance to strengthen the CC, while not being in isolation. Just compare Munster, Leicester and Toulouse’s homeground attendance figures to that of the Crusaders, Brumbies and Blues. 3 teams with the same historic success than those european teams mentioned.
14 Nov 2011, 17:45 pm
WOW !!!! this is exciting, hope it happens soon.
14 Nov 2011, 17:48 pm
I used to be all for staying South, but stuff that… SA continually get a raw deal versus the kissing cousins. I don’t think it would diminish our rugby at all… Do it!
14 Nov 2011, 17:50 pm
While in a way I would be sad to see South African players playing fewer games against the Kiwis and Aussies, I think it’s time to leave them behind.
We’ve always been the third wheel and we should go somewhere where we get a fair shake for a change.
There’s a hell of a lot more money to be made in Europe, too.
I honestly think that it will be the kiwis and Aussies who suffer if this does happen, and not us.
Super Rugby has been expanded to ridiculous proportions to suit the Aussies’ needs, and there are no positives in that scenario for us.
The Boks could still play in the so-called Rugby Championship, though the option of joining the Seven Nations could become increasingly attractive.
14 Nov 2011, 18:00 pm
SA rugby need a Louis Luyt. Hoskins certainly do not have the vision or backbone to take this opportunity and run with it. At least use it in contract negotiations, but no. We will get whipped again by our SH “friends”. How I would love if we play the Irish, Welsh, Scots, English and French. They respect the values of rugby, unlike the Aussies who would damage our game until it is unrecognisible. I used to tolerate them, because of respect I had for NZ, but that is also gone. NZ is to Aus what Wales is to England. Texas is more of a country in its own right than these two spineless, B grade countries.
14 Nov 2011, 18:00 pm
Good move. Hope it happends. SA have been for too long now at the mercy of biased administration of NZ and Aus looking after each other at our expense. Bring on a more level playing field.
14 Nov 2011, 18:02 pm
This competition envisages pitting the winners of the various competitions, including the winners of the Super Rugby Comp and the various regional conference winners against the winners up North.
So this is not in place of the Super Comp, this is in addition to the Super Rugby competition.
Just what we need. More fixtures.
Chase the money and throw the players away after a season or two….that’s what I say!!!
(insert sarcastic font here)
14 Nov 2011, 18:15 pm
Bad idea.. all europe clubs have the money… if they play in the same league then players will draft to the better money and therefore leaving the sa provinces as the worst off…
If theres a way around that then go ahead but i like the fact that between febuary and may is super rugby.. then tri nations and the six nations and the european championship being spread over the year… if there is one league it will leave huge pre seasons because the tri natiuons and six nations will need to be played the same time otherwise the tournament wouldnt work..
14 Nov 2011, 18:15 pm
I say stuff SANZAR once and for all. SARU are weak and cowardly and continue to bend and take long deep ones from the sheep admirers and it’s boring.
Move away from the Southern Hemisphere where the travel issue is and always will be a contentuous problem, especially for South African teams getting the soggy end of all the travel schedules. SARU just throw their arms up and plead ignorance while winking at their cronies in SANZAR. Enough now.
I am quite excited at the prospect of a northern alliance. Fans wanting to travel from South Africa can do so at a fraction of the cost and of course there’s the huge expat community in the UK that will benefit from a home flavoured rugby spectacle. What’s not to like.
14 Nov 2011, 18:20 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-10: LOL. Exactly..hehe.
Just more rugby which we don’t want.
Also if we ever decide to go north that will be our rugby as we know it down here. Cause none of our top players will play in any saffa franchise, they would play in a nh club cause the money would be a whole lot more than what they earn here. We will be left with the CC players at best down here.
So we can then forget seeing the very best playing in our franchise. That is a problem that would happen if we move away from SuperRugby and head north.
I think we just stay in the sh. We work out a shorter S15 that would help for starters.
14 Nov 2011, 18:23 pm
@Rhys7(Rhys7)-11: Snap just said it in my post 13.
We would lose players in the droves if we went north. None of our franchises here could pay them what the clubs pay them over there. Would be a very bad move for our rugby to head north.
14 Nov 2011, 18:34 pm
@Puma(Puma)-14:
The real point is, how profitable would it be compared to what SARU currently pocket from the SANZAR/NewsCorp deal?
14 Nov 2011, 18:46 pm
@David(David)-15:
A lot more.
14 Nov 2011, 18:50 pm
@Puma(Puma)-13:
From my understanding, the North vs South is the European offering.
However this article is talking about a rebel “league” .
14 Nov 2011, 19:08 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-16:
Based on what? The pie may be bigger, but there’ll be far more slices and SAs viewership contribution would be proportionately tiny.
14 Nov 2011, 19:19 pm
@David(David)-18:
Viewership is based more on variety and quantity – having witnessed the first week of Heineken Cup I don’t think the quality differs that much either to be honest.
It’s a pity the full article was not posted here, but if you look at the money involved with the Heineken Cup and compared to Super Rugby (and remember add more convenient viewing hours wrt timezones) – a better playing calender – better variety on show and you have a winning product.
Numbers quoted in SA Rugby mag a month or so ago suggested SA contributes close to or over 70% of the viewing (most profitable) audience to SANZAR based comps – yet the SANZAR split is equal.
Commercially and in the simplest business terms SA Rugby stands to gain a hell of a lot more associating themselves with guys up North than with cousins down East.
14 Nov 2011, 19:22 pm
I can’t see the majority of European clubs agreeing to the idea of flying back and forth to SA for games. We do it because we have no option in the SH.
Besides the European sides are more like soccer teams with players of all nationalities who are based in Europe.
14 Nov 2011, 19:31 pm
@David(David)-20: Their players would love the idea of taking a nice summer break in SA. We’ll thump them while they come on a holiday, but they’ll still enjoy it.
SANZAR has always been about protecting NZ and Aus from rugby extinction. They must be sh*tting themselves about this… Without SA, Aus and NZ are in serious trouble and I think SA might just be fed up enough with the stupid SANZAR nonsense that’s going on.
The new S15 format was basically implemented so that NZ and Aus can get more money from the revenue SA generates for big derby matches… I say drop them sheep shaggers and see how they cope without us.
14 Nov 2011, 19:46 pm
@David(David)-20:
Think ‘global season’. From my understanding Europe is happy to let this run into the most part of their summer going into their winter.
If the money is there, these boys will fly – just in better timezones and to be honest, NZ rugby and Oz rugby has not made many global friends recently.
14 Nov 2011, 19:59 pm
It may not work, the basics are all against it
The Unions in SA are the power base, outside them nothing will survive, so for private enterprises to go against the provincial Unions is not practicle: the unions all have their infrastructures in place, the presumed new entities may find a breakaway to be unbearable and unsustainable.
The economic cycle still on the down turn, not the right time to move
14 Nov 2011, 20:21 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-22:
The better time zones is only an issue for SA. I just wonder whether SAs involvement would raise the revenue for the Euro clubs enough to make it attractive.
Our revenue comes from a bundle deal that includes the S15 and 3N with NewsCorp.
From what I see of the proposal, it effectively absorbs the S15 playoffs and semis into the European cup. Unless NewsCorp/Sky Sports is involved the whole current package falls apart.
14 Nov 2011, 20:34 pm
This isn’t such a bad idea. The only issue I would have with it would be the potential loss of players to the richer clubs up north, but they may be ways to combat that. Instituting some sort of reasonable salary cap and adding revenue sharing to that would put all the clubs involved on even footing. That way, the rich clubs can’t just snatch all the best players.
Without SA, SANZAR would basically collapse, which would probably lead to all the best players or at least some of the clubs down under trying to join the new league.
The more I think about it, the more I like it. I hope this happens in the near future. My only caveat would be the tri / quad nations or whatever they want to call it not be killed. They would probably need to pare it down to one home and away game in order to keep it within reason. We just need to test ourselves against the ABs every year. The wobblies I could live without.
14 Nov 2011, 20:34 pm
@Hondo(Hondo)-23:
You’re quite right, up to a point. The S15 Franchises are an artificial creation formed to provide the 150 best SA players, to adhere to the deal proposed by SANZAR to NewsCorp. In fact, the S15 is owned by SARU and exists independant of the unions.
The reality though, is that if the majority smaller unions see there revenue share increase by endorsing a deal, they’ll go for it.
14 Nov 2011, 20:34 pm
I can’t wait for the Super deal to end and I can’t wait for the antipodes to reject the inclusion of the Kings as the 6th SA team …. that will be the last straw!
14 Nov 2011, 20:36 pm
one thing i like about SA rugby is the fact u guys have protected your CurieCup. if this move allows you to protect the CC moreso than do it. nz has sold out the NPC and its now only a feeding comp for superRugby
NZ and Aus will survive and superRugby needs a major shakeup anyways. the marketers will be forced this time to come up with something more creative than adding more teams and rounds.
scrap the triNations as well or make it less frequent like every 2 years.
SA will be missed but southern comps are stagnant and need a shakeup.
14 Nov 2011, 20:39 pm
@David(David)-26: franchises are artificial only in a NZ context … In SA there is no distinction between a Currie Cup side and a franchise team, same difference.
14 Nov 2011, 20:43 pm
Yeah bugger off up North you pansie, biltong munching Saffers, NZ and Aus can do without you…believe they can. You go North and your rugby will go South, this I promise you. All this harping about poor old SA having to travel, HELLO dont Aus and NZ travel to SA also…? duuhhhh!!! if SANZAR goes out of existence, then an ANZAC alliance will take its place…and it will do very nicely thank you…and what a joy it will be not to have to stick up with the constant bleating (sounds like you are a nation of sheep) that comes out of SA…yes ANZAC’s will do just fine thank you….
14 Nov 2011, 20:45 pm
@slow114(slow114)-25:
The french clubs wouldn’t agree to a salary cap, as they’re owned by wealthy individuals. A lot like Barcelona in soccer.
14 Nov 2011, 20:49 pm
Dump the antipodes I say … have a 8/10 team professional Currie Cup competition and let the top 4 qualify to play in the Rugby Champions League. Don’t worry about the kiwis, their top players will be forced to seek employment where the money is.
14 Nov 2011, 20:50 pm
Nice work by Gareth to link the Guardian quote by an unnamed “anonymous prominent club figure” to similar sentiments already attributed to Ed Griffiths in SA Rugby Magazine. Hmmm, I wonder who the anonymous prominent club figure could be?
At this stage, it’s only an idea within Saracens. Most top English and French clubs operate at a loss. They are using the SA dissatisfaction with SANZAR as a carrot to the other big clubs in France and England. Kind of promising that if they take charge of European club competition then the South Africans *might* be ready to join them and bring Supersport money to the TV deals.
Make no mistake, it is Supersport money. SANZAR keeps banging on about how the Newscorp deal is the essential source of funding for all three unions, but Newscorp are not doing it for charity. They sell the rights, mostly to their associate companies with FOX or SKY in their names, but the biggest audience comes from DSTV.
There is no need any longer for Super Rugby and the 3N (now the 4 team Rugby Chamionship) to be bundled together for TV rights. Let SARU negotiate all home tests directly with Supersport, and see how much Newscorp can raise for Super Rugby. My estimate is, not very much.
That would leave SA Rugby with a clear choice of Super Rugby or the European equivalent. I’m not saying we should go the European route, but it is a realistic option and can be evaluated on it’s merits at the time.
14 Nov 2011, 20:52 pm
have been advocating this for over a decade now.
Go North Boks.
About bloody time
14 Nov 2011, 20:52 pm
NZ is #1 (and world champs) and Oz is #2. Any contest without them is a lowly second-rate farce, really. And the Bledisloe Cup has always been more important than the 3N or the Mandela Hubcap.
14 Nov 2011, 21:00 pm
@Roar my Lions …. Currie Cup Champions 2011(RL)-29:
Superficially yes , apart from the Cheetahs/Griquas.The reality is though, that S15 franchises have no official standing within SARU, other than as a combination of the individual unions that comprise the franchise.
14 Nov 2011, 21:04 pm
@TheTackler(TheTackler)-35: that is exactly the attitude that we , as Saffas , have had to endure since Superrugbys inception…..all the more reason for us to go.
and as i have said a 1000 times before….we as saffas have no kinship with kiwis or aussies……far more spiritually comfortable with poms, frenchies, scots, irish. welsh….etc
Time for us to say our goodbyes
if truth be told sazar was farked from day 1 imo
14 Nov 2011, 21:05 pm
fark I would be ecstatic if this gets off the ground…….
hope stormers get to clobber plod and saracens before the fat boy retires…
14 Nov 2011, 21:14 pm
Would enjoy watching my Sharkies against Toulouse, Leicester Tigers, Northampton Saints and the like…
Go North with a global rugby season… It can only end well…
At worst it can be a great bargaining chip with the kissing cousin snakes.
At best it can be a whole new more lucrative Rugger comp with more passionate/traditional crowds to replace SA involvement in S15…
Champions League Rugby – I Like IT!!!
14 Nov 2011, 21:15 pm
@35. Ja you can play each other in a nine match bledisloe series every year. Or better yet. Play each other 3 time for the Bledisloe Cup and then 5 times for the Bledisloe Series and then once off and call it the Bledisloe Final. You know why? Because the aussies and kiwis only support their national teams. In France you have the Southerners that do not want to be associated with the teams from Paris. Leicester have supporters that will pack their grandstand even if it is a midweek game in terrible conditions. Did you watch the Currie Cup Final? Have you seen the red sea of supporters when Munster plays? Now let us compare it to the NPC final. How many supporters were there? 12 thousand?
14 Nov 2011, 21:18 pm
@Horings(Horings)-4: Good post
14 Nov 2011, 21:19 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-22: @PissAnt(PissAnt)-19: As always, knowledgeable rugger man.
14 Nov 2011, 21:21 pm
i am not exactly sure how to feel about this.
on the one hand, i would miss the excitement of a superrugby season about to begin, the fixture list and learning which sheepshagger or convict (jokes my australasian cuzzies) have moved to which franchise etc etc.
on the udder hand, i am bored stiff with “super” rugby.
the competition is bloated and full of journeymen as so much talent has headed north already. Its the same old every year but with more meaningless fixtures, poorer reffing (by all countries refs) and pathetic permutations allwing the weakest country (aus) to benefit from having more no-hoper derbies than the rest etc etc.
6 team playoffs? i mean really, WHAT THE ***?
so ja, i guess i would find it quite exciting to have new competition, new faces and places, new traditions to learn about and even maybe the opportunity to OCCASIONALLY travel as a fan to europe to wach my team which i will certainly never do in superrugby (i could do a long weekend to europe/england and stay with my boet, imagine that?).
so ja, i am wavering.
14 Nov 2011, 21:23 pm
@Horings(Horings)-40: they wish they drew 12000.
seriously, the kiwis dont seem to support anyone but the all blacks and the aussies actually are surpassing them in terms of crowd numbers.
shocking.
14 Nov 2011, 21:27 pm
aus and nz would be feeder nations like argentina within a decade if this did happen.
nz would learn what it feels like to be a samoa and have your team get together a week before a fixture.
harsh but true i mean these okes can purportedly not afford to send a side to the next world cup?
14 Nov 2011, 21:28 pm
I can’t believe this. We’d prefer to play against the weakest tier one teams than measure ourselves against the ABs and Wallabies.
As for you Grant, I’m disgusted that as a self professed “African”, you claim that SA has more in common with European nations.
14 Nov 2011, 21:34 pm
@Horings(Horings)-40: there were 80,000 that watched Stade play Clermont just a week ago for a normal league match in Paris …… that is 16 times bigger than the small group of people that watched the NPC final.
14 Nov 2011, 21:36 pm
@David(David)-46: david i am not sure if you are looking at this correctly mate.
its not the boks who would be playing vs the national teams of european nations.
its franchises/ clubs playing against each other.
now if you think that the superrugby teams are all infinitely superior, i would suggest you havent really been watching the last few years.
how do you think teams like toulouse, stade, munster, leinster, leicster and sarries to mention a few would stack up against the lions (of the last few years), the cheetahs, force, chiefs, hurricanes, reds (of the last few years), brumbies of late, rebels?
please man, there would be more than a few NH slanted as s whuppings handed out to so called “super” rugby teams b the top clubs in europe.
lastly, my heritage is Scots, my country is South Africa. i am proud of both. is that wrong?
14 Nov 2011, 21:37 pm
@David You may friend have the same lack of vision than our leadership at saru. Do you think ABs and Wobblies will be at the top if we pull out of the SH tournaments. Where will their money come from? NZ will make it by using the All Black brand. No other country will play as many games as them, while the Aussies will become weaker than Italy. The strength in a competition such as the Barclays Premier League has to do with passion. Passionate clubs and passionate supporters. NZ and Aus provinces have none of it, except for the Reds.
14 Nov 2011, 21:40 pm
@Horings(Horings)-49: the saffa fans pay for the aus and nz rugby unions to survive and thrive at present.
without our coin going east, we wll still play against their best (and i would hazard a fair amount would filter into saffa franchises too) but the money will travel north south instead.
14 Nov 2011, 21:42 pm
test tours to nz and them to us would be restored to the event they should be instead of a yearly fixture.
whattapleasure.
14 Nov 2011, 21:47 pm
Now can you guys imagine if Munster plays the Lions at Soccer City in the Final. How many supporters from Europe will watch the Final. Compare that to the number of kiwi supporters that watched the Bulls Chiefs final. It will be like a mini Lions tour. And for those of you that think it will be bad for our players as the greater exposure would make them easier to buy. Our teams will not deal in Rands anymore, but we will be earning Pounds through TV rights. The greater speed at which our games will be played in let’s say feb and march will make SA games the more watchable and our players will become the best equipped to play in different circumstances. I tell you what, some of our props will be knocked down to earth if they go and play in muddy conditions in England.
14 Nov 2011, 21:56 pm
@rangerman(rangerman)-48:
I’m not relegating the NH sides to also ran status. My complaint is that our reaction seems to be based on the fact that we were out negotiated by NZ and Oz.
@Horings(Horings)-49:
NZ dominated rugby before the 3N, and Oz won 2 RWCs. Our participation in the 3N in no way diminishes those achievements. In fact, other than financially, we languish at the bottom of the SANZAR ladder.
14 Nov 2011, 21:59 pm
NZ and Aus need SA more than SA needs Europe.
The kissing cousins NZ and Aus better wake up soon and realise this… SA has been looking north for a while now…
In my personal opinion, going north would lead to a slip in standards. The best of SA remain at the top because they play the best.
14 Nov 2011, 22:03 pm
I’m off to bed.
14 Nov 2011, 22:04 pm
@David(David)-53: i have to disagree with both yourpoints David.
point one: its not a simple case of being out negotiated, even though we are the nation whish will always suck the hind t it when it comes to negotiating with the tacit anzac alliance. Its more a case of geography omo and thus any suggestion to move north for me is simply based on two things, revenue (pro game nowadays) and ease of travel. the north ticks both boxes and like i said, we will play against teams packed with superstars of rugby (and increasingly so as nz and aus are bled dry). it will not be a tier one vs tier lower scenario David.
point two: we dominated both aus and nz statistically befor the 3n and in fact it took about 7 years of the 3n for the nz’s to draw level with us so that is not true. yes, we languish of late but thats even more reason for us to try something new surely? or shuld we do the same old and expect a diferent result?
14 Nov 2011, 22:07 pm
@David the fact of the matter is if no one will watch a provincial NZ Aus game then there will be no money and their players will play where the money is. The same money that SA teams will have a hand in, which will go back into our rugby. Past experience and history will not convince me as this will be a new ball game. You will need to convince me by arguing a logical point.
14 Nov 2011, 22:08 pm
@David(David)-55: me too, sleep well David and i dont thik we will ever move north but its great to chat about the possibilities, thanks.
14 Nov 2011, 22:15 pm
I think overall, from a South African rugby supporters perspective I’m not too sure about it. Fixture numbers and player burnout crop up as a potential issue. But from a world rugby perspective I can see it benefiting the players and teams up North to have more contact with a more forward-thinking Southern Hemisphere style of rugby.
14 Nov 2011, 22:34 pm
Money talks, more & more games every year something’s got to give. Guess I’m just an ouballie hankering for the test series of my youth…
14 Nov 2011, 22:34 pm
@David(David)-55: tata chipman.
14 Nov 2011, 22:35 pm
@nikoli(nikoli)-60: I’m already at breaking point. There’s far too much rugby already.
14 Nov 2011, 22:35 pm
The S15 format is incredibly boring.
14 Nov 2011, 22:37 pm
@Horings(Horings)-57: @Yetirat(Yetirat)-59: @rangerman(rangerman)-56:
all very well said and true
boks will be missed….and it maybe the death knell for superRugby, but to be honest superRugby is getting boring. enforced local derby games are tiresome and i cant be bothered watching them.
yes boks leaving will weaken the comp but it maybe just what it needs for the admin to realise they need to be more creative than just adding more teams.
boks will be exposed to different rugby. diversity is the key.make sure the currieCup is protected and all will be well.
NZ and Aus will survive, it’ll just mean that some smarter more creative people will need to step up.
this will not be the end of SH rugby
14 Nov 2011, 22:37 pm
Ya wooden, kinda loses it’s meaning when playing each other so much
15 Nov 2011, 00:00 am
this will sound really g-ay…but the thought of watching those poor lilly white munster blokes huffing and puffing their way around Loftus on a scortching hot afternoon at altitude…..is giving me a hard-on.
on a more serious note, kiwi and oz rugby would survive…barely, but they would be forced to relax their laws withregards to players playing outside of nz otherwise they’s be left with not much else to select.
15 Nov 2011, 01:55 am
@Brigadier Van Zyl(Brigadier Van Zyl)-66: laws to change overseas players eligibilty should never change. thats the only thing stopping a mass exodus of players.
new comp can encompass having the argentinians and a new team based in asia. i like the idea of having a pacific rim team, ie the teams that play in the pacific comp can all contribute players but be based in hongKong or japan. they wouldnt be the calibre of the boks (no team is) but it would be something different as well as promoting rugby to the asian market
15 Nov 2011, 02:08 am
Look North!! Time to liven things up.
Ideally that would just lead to a bigger portion of the broadcasting revenue. SANZAR isn’t working. SARU are being taken to the cleaners every time a new deal is made.
But how I’d love to see us ditch Super rugby. It just isn’t working out. At the moment our sides are competing against themselves for a play-off spot. The better the overall standard, the less likely you are to get home-field advantage.
The Reds won the 2011 SR competition because they played in the Australian conference, and had home advantage throughout the play-offs. Complete bullsh1t.
Maybe start a tournament where all SA sides compete (including the Kings) against 10 other teams from Europe.
15 Nov 2011, 03:53 am
South Africa are a great Rugby Nation, no doubt about that. If they were to go north, good luck to them. Will it improve their standard of rugby? Do’nt think so.
15 Nov 2011, 04:39 am
Would love to see what John O’Niel has to say about all this? I suspect if it actually got really serious loads of U-turns and arrrrse kissing towards South Africa! One thing that nobody has thought about…… What will happen to all the Cape Crusaders if this takes off? Who will they support?!?!?!
15 Nov 2011, 04:46 am
If the shoe was on the other foot, would the Aussies and Kiwis hang around for the South Africans???? Doubt it, they would be off at the first smell of cash!
15 Nov 2011, 04:54 am
@HongKongSlong(HongKongSlong)-71:
No proof in anything you just said, like the rest of the comments on here.
Only thing worth saying is go for it, leave. We have heard about it so many times before so it was only a matter of time.
Shame but rugby is about money now and is getting worse. Which makes you think how Samoa comes close to beating SA so many times and beat Ozzie. Samoa, a team that travelled on a loan to get the the RWC, no money but passion.
We will soon see English rugby clubs running around with 10 international players like their football sides.
And the teams that dont have the money of those clubs will be left with the left overs.
15 Nov 2011, 05:18 am
SA was missing from proper test rugby from 1984 for a whole decade. Nobody missed them. Nobody cared. The two top teams are NZ and Oz — both operating in first-world economies with eight times or more the per capita GDP than the Africans. Bledisloe and NPC will do nicely. And lucratively.
15 Nov 2011, 05:44 am
69
Te Rangatira(Te Rangatira) Says:
When this subject comes up… Most kiwi posters ask the rhetorical question “will it improve Bok rugby”, and then answer “no” or “they doubt it”.
Most of these kiwis are too one-eyed to see that is a double-edged sword… So I will ask rhetorically… “will the ABs not playing the Boks improve AB rugby?”
To which I must answer… “I doubt it!”
If you guys think playing a pacific league where you beat every team by cricket scores will be good for kiwi rugby you guys are more deluded than you know…
The truth is that not only will NZ an Aus lose the revenue that SA brings to the party but the quality of your rugby would also slip by not having the Boks to test your teams al the time…
Fact is… any way you slice this pizza… NZ will lose the lekker toppings… and be left with plain cheese to feed their already ambivalent fans…
Even if you have the best cheese… after eating so much cheese kiwi people are gonna get bored with that diet…!
But you carry on up the khyber… It will be fun to watch…!
15 Nov 2011, 05:46 am
@rangerman(rangerman)-56:
It actually took NZ 4 years of tri nations to surpass Sth Africa head to head Keeping it real.
15 Nov 2011, 05:54 am
With no Super rugby a boat load of players from Auz and NZ will move to go and play in Europe. They wont get paid as much without SA in the super rugby comp. So imo the standards will rise soon enough, so I dont really fear the falling in standards or SA falling behind nz and auz. NZ and Auz coaches will probably be appointed too…
15 Nov 2011, 06:01 am
@TheTackler(TheTackler)-73:
Then enjoy the viewing ……….. should be fun year in year out………..not
15 Nov 2011, 06:02 am
@ufo(ufo)-74:
Spot on bru
15 Nov 2011, 06:04 am
@ufo(ufo)-74:
The rhetorical question is if NZ were to head North would it improve our rugby? I do’nt think so..
15 Nov 2011, 06:05 am
@JohnPaul(JohnPaul)-30:
Well enjoy playing with yourselves you f uk head!
15 Nov 2011, 06:28 am
sing a song of sixpence a pocket full of rye every year we hear the same nursery rhyme with jingle bells on the horizon and nobody with the balls to cut the umbilical cord so who the fck thinks they’re fooling who?
15 Nov 2011, 06:39 am
@Hurricane(Hurricane)-72: The reason why the Premier League soccer teams have so many foreigners in them is because of European legislation law allowing freedom of movement. So you can’t limit clubs to only having a certain number of foreigners in a team at any one time. I think they are only allowed 2 non Europeans on the pitch at any one time. Granted quite a few Aussies and Kiwis have ancestral European passports, but it can’t be as crazy as soccer, because there aren’t enough Europeans to dilute the English clubs that much. You may actually see some South African Provinces getting cheap Kiwi labour on board as well if this all goes through.
15 Nov 2011, 06:54 am
when they gonna face the fact that pro sport is not the diamond studded fairy godmothers wand they still think it might be, how much revenue loss can any one ore more franchise take before the half wrecked ship runs aground or goes belly UP…anyway ?
Ain’t gonna work.., pie in the sky hairbrain schemes remain just that, pie in the sky hairbrain schemes..
15 Nov 2011, 07:24 am
@David(David)-46: stick your disgust where the sun dont shine David!
Historically we have far stronger historic links with France and Britain than Aussies or Kiwis….that is a fact!
Like it or not it is a fact!
Saying that makes me less ‘ African ” ?
WTF are you talking about??
15 Nov 2011, 07:28 am
@David(David)-53: I have been against Sanzar from day 1 my man….day farken 1 !
You owe me an apology mate!
My being in favour of a NH deal has you implying I am unpatriotic?
Fark you David……that is very judgemental of you…..
I have strong Irish and English ancestral roots…..of course I farken prefer and alighn myself with them more than the kiwis and aussies! Where is the farken crime in that!??
Bloody arrogant of you mate!
15 Nov 2011, 07:40 am
@grant10(grant10)-84:
True that. South Africans have a much stronger link to the north than those strange Australasians. My genetics are all linked to the north and I bet so are about 80% of bloggers on keo.
My family are over there too. It makes perfect sense to take our rugby over there.
Let the ANZAC’s continue their incestuous relations as only they can do it…..*bleat*
15 Nov 2011, 07:41 am
Got to raise a question – if the S15 is so boring and unattractive , why do so many top Heineken cup players have the wish to one day play in the S15 ???? Maybe because it is the best comp in the world ?
I would also like to know how many bloggers on this site would be b-i-t-c-h ing to go north if their franchise had won last years S15 ? As a Sader supporter this years comp for me was the best , even though we didnt win , but showed that there is still passion in rugby ….. SA supporters need to focus more on the playing abitilites of their players or their passion( SA franchises were **** this year ? – i dont think any true supporter would wish for their team to play in a lesser league so they can win – at the moment S15 is still the premier comp in the world and the old story goes … you only become the best if you play against the best.
15 Nov 2011, 07:41 am
finally!
some admin poosies growing a bit of balls.
why be dishonest about our relationship with the anzacs?
they think we’re are a bunch of cuntss, we know they’re a bunch of ccunts, why act like its not the case?
they can keep their bullsshit cheating filth to themselves and have fun with that.
for bragging rights and to settle it, we can host tours with them every 2nd or 3rd year just to prove who’s who in the zoo.
for the rest lets go north.
15 Nov 2011, 07:43 am
@Great White Shark(Predawn)-86: We are all colonialists at the end of the day – some of us just got on the wrong boat !!!!
15 Nov 2011, 07:49 am
@Great White Shark(Predawn)-86: 1 and 2 in the world, pilgrim.
15 Nov 2011, 07:50 am
@stew(stew)-87:
For the reasons mentioned above. Cheating, biased refereeing, lopsided travel schedules and a rugby union that does not support their players against the kissing ANZAC cousins.
The Australasians clearly feel threatened by South Africa and will resort to any measures to get us.
I’d personally rather my team played in a proper competitive sporting environment where the emphasis is on playing the game rather than trying to win any any and all costs to “get the Yarpies”. The ANZAC’s need to grow up.
15 Nov 2011, 08:00 am
@Great White Shark(Predawn)-86:
I thought you were cullart ?
15 Nov 2011, 08:01 am
@stew(stew)-87:
i noticed some of these ‘s15 is boring’ comments coming from some of your compatriots…
i enjoy the s15… but that’s not the point…
as much as you guys can be disingenuous about it… and i don’t expect a single NZ or Aus blogger to be onset about it on keo…
the point is… saffas are gatvol of being screwed by NZ and Aus… and i’m not talking about the world cup…
we bring the most money to the SANZAR party and get less, pro rata than both NZ and Aus back… plus you guys are always voting as a block against SA to ensure things don’t go our way…
before you scream blue conspiracy… one case in point you guys voted that it must be a saffa team that must have a by on the the first weekend on the S15… it was the stormers last year and the sharks this year… it definitely is a disadvantage to the team having the by on the first weekend… why not rotate it among all three countries who can rotate it among all franchise to ensure that each team is only disadvantaged once each in 15 years…? but no… NZ and Aus vote that it must be a Saffa team… and only a saffa team… that has a by on the first weekend of the comp…
now i ask you to be honest here… Is that fair and right…? No sarcasm please… just honesty…?
And it is the continual ‘little’ things like this that add up over the years and make us think… why must we take this continual back-handed two-upmanshiop from you guys…? we bring most of the cash to the table and you guys can’t even see your way to treating us as equals…? says a lot about the psyche of both your countries that you have to continually feel the need to put one over us and ‘gang-up’ to ensure south africa always gets the short-end of the rugby ball…?
so we say… why the fark should we accept that…?
let’s take our money elsewhere where they also have money money and are not as nationalistically fragile and won’t see the need to ALWAYS try and put one over south africa…?
and don’t say it’s because our administrators are weak (which may be true…) the point is even if they were strong, you guys ALWAYS voting together means the strength of our administrators is moot….
i don’t expect any reason from you guys… seems you’re emotionally incapable of being objective…
but just be honest if you can for a few minutes and ask yourselves if either of your nations would accept the **** your rugby unions deal out to us all the time…?
15 Nov 2011, 08:01 am
@stew(stew)-87: With SA in there, it wouldn’t be a lesser league, it would be the greatest of all time, because the cream from Australia and New Zealand as well as the rest of the world would all be in it. There would also be real passion from the fans and huge stadiums completely full, travelling support and not just the players sharing in a truly great rugby experience, but also THE FANS, something you Antipodeans don’t have many of.
15 Nov 2011, 08:02 am
Can we once and for all take the TRAVEL equation out of the scenario now – the Saders this season proved that even without home advantage that a team playing well can still perform
15 Nov 2011, 08:03 am
@Gunther(gunther)-92:
hehehe…
you’ve caught him with his genes down…
15 Nov 2011, 08:04 am
@stew(stew)-87: seems a lot more south players heading north ?
15 Nov 2011, 08:04 am
@stew(stew)-89:
You mean the nasty English judge told you to get on the wrong boat?
15 Nov 2011, 08:05 am
@TheTackler(TheTackler)-90:
At any cost? A game played where there is no controversy would be a welcome change from the norm. No allegations of biased refereing, silly childish remarks from Kiwi and Aussie commentators, players getting preferential treatment because they ‘play somewhere between the border of the offside line’….just an even playing field with dollops of sportsmanship for the sake of the game.
South Africans are too honest and it counts against us. We need to play the game of rugby with like minded players in the north…guys that get down to business and play hard uncompromising rugby for the love of the game…no whining about dirty South Africans ‘eye gouging’ or wearing armbands.
To play the Kiwis in a proper three test series every odd year is a much more tantalising proposition.
Are you gonna take another 24 years to get the next trophy? Just asking.
15 Nov 2011, 08:07 am
@ufo(ufo)-96:
Indeed the genie is out the bottle.
15 Nov 2011, 08:07 am
@ufo(ufo)-93: Very fair points …… By the looks of things , it isnt the S15 comp that is at fault but the poor bargaining of SARU …… Do you think you would do any better on the negotating table up north … Better the devil you know springs to mind
15 Nov 2011, 08:11 am
While I support a move North the reality is I doubt it will happen. Or if it does it won’t be in the near future.
An awful lot of earth needs to be moved before the first bit of foundation is laid out, the are contractual agreements that have to be re/out negotiated. There is getting the NH clubs and the RFU etc to be in agreement, there is the
‘season playing window” to be negotiated, who is going to play out of their traditional season ?? Then of course the IRB could derail the whole thing. I see a whole lot of disruption to the HH set up in order to accommodate us, are they prepared to do this ?? Sponsorships and TV rights need to be negotiated and put in place. Also don’t underestimate the power that NZ and Auss wield, they will counter this in some or other format.
So as I say ,I would like to see this happen, but I am not holding my breath that it will !!
15 Nov 2011, 08:12 am
@justrugby(justrugby)-102:
HH = NH
15 Nov 2011, 08:13 am
The sooner the links are broken with SANZAR the better. 2013/14?
15 Nov 2011, 08:13 am
From day 1 i BEEN SAYING WE FARKEN GOT ROCKS IN OUR HEAD WITH THIS sANZAR DEAL…..IT IS SIMPLE MATHS…..
fark…sorry caps…
3 is a crowd….those kissing cousins have no history with us…..I have nothing against aussies and kiwis…I am completely emotionally detatched from them, as they are from me….I just dont have 1 iota of kinship with them….
Now I love the Irish teams……as will a lot of Saffas enjoy English teams …..and some Saffa folk with have a kinship with the French, etc…..
That does not mean we less Saffa./……just that we [ or a helleva lot of us ] do have a real history with Europe……
and nothing quite beats thrashing the poms!
How did we ever believe in the first place we would ever be anything but the ugly step sister in Sanzar?
No man….check the history…..those okes have farked us up 6 love for years….simple maths and proximity against us……kissing cousins 6…saffas 0.
And I can guarantee you it will simply never ever change….
Go North I say….the Sanzar deal was stillborn…..never has and never will be a fair set up.
About time saffas caught a wakey wakey.
And standards dropping?
Watch some Heineken Cup……..we will need to be sharp to beat the giants of NH rugby….thats for sure…
15 Nov 2011, 08:21 am
Carlo….
we head north you better get your stable cleared out….
I reckon Justrugby, Robzim and I will be visiting quite often!
15 Nov 2011, 08:22 am
carol
15 Nov 2011, 08:28 am
@stew(stew)-101:
thanks stew…
and yes, you’re right… it is poor bargaining… but we’ll always be at a disadvantage because Aus and NZ will always vote together… and neither has great finances so the two ‘poorer’ cousins feel compelled to stick together against the ‘richer’ foreigner…
i think in europe they have more money than south africa (which is why all our southern hemisphere players go there) so they won’t feel they have to make up for anything by forcing an agenda…
plus…. there are more unions involved in europe so a fair outcome will be more likely…
15 Nov 2011, 08:32 am
@justrugby(justrugby)-102:
i agree with you JR… I don’t think it will happen either…
but it COULD and I would like NZ and Aus to recognize that fact and accept that they need us more than we need them and they should therefore stop the sh!!t they’ve been dishing for so long now…
and if things don’t improve… saru should start making official noises like Tew did… to establish that it will be a better deal for us to go to europe and… if things still don’t improve… then to actually start the wheels turning… even if it takes five years to get there…
15 Nov 2011, 08:42 am
@ufo(ufo)-109:
Agree !!!
The negotiators on SA’s behalf at SANZAR have been weak and far too compromising !!
A move to the NH has a huge amount of benefit though, will be watching this one with interest !!
15 Nov 2011, 08:44 am
Its all well and good saying we should head north, but that isn’t what this article is talking about. This article is discussing forming another competition, and including it into the already over crowded schedule. It is also likely that the competition won’t be sanctioned by the IRB, making things very complicated for every-one involved, and it also involving a limited number of South African teams. The creation of rebel leagues has played out in a number of other sports, and they have rarely been successful in getting off the ground, or being successful long term ventures. Sport is a complicated industry.
There are a lot of impediments to South African rugby heading north – no matter where they play, South Africa isn’t a good fit. What do we do with the international calendar if our clubs are playing in the north? I doubt they will let South Africa play in the 6 nations – it wouldn’t be a natural fit, and it is unlikely that the Springboks would be accommodated.
If South Africa were to pull out of the Super 15, they would be withdrawing from SANZAR, and would then not play in the Tri-Nations (four nations). What happens to the international calendar? Is South Africa happy to have incoming tours from the north during July, then have no international rugby, with only the Currie Cup, and then play the end of year tour, with their provincial teams involved in a competition in the northern hemisphere? That would make it all year round rugby, likely without games against Australia and New Zealand, and no international tournament.
Is there really scope to play rugby in South Africa in November, December and January?
People say that the South African administrators get a raw deal from Australia and NZ, but this is due to South African incompetence. They will just as likely get schooled by the Northern hemisphere administrators.
A shift to the north won’t solve South Africa’s rugby problems, it will just present them with a whole collection of new problems, and issues which they would need to address.
15 Nov 2011, 08:49 am
@WOLFMAN21(WOLFMAN21)-111: Here here !
15 Nov 2011, 08:51 am
another upside is that tours can reffed by each countries own refs. this would make it less likely for cheating by their officials and players to have any discernable outcome on games played between us as hometown bias would be equalled out.
when we go over there we’ll do our damndest to beat them inspite of their referees and vice versa.
15 Nov 2011, 08:55 am
Too much rugby and too many average teams. no matter which league or hemisphere you play in.
Rugby needs a proper clean out and these world provincial leagues will be a whole lot more attractive to everyone.
Ranger says there are too many average teams in the S15 eg Rebels, Force, Lions of old, Cheetahs etc but then he doesnt have a look see at the unbelievable averageness of some of the Heiniken Cup sides, eg Castres, Racing Metro, Montpellier, Aironi, Treviso etc etc.
How the fk is SA rugby ever going to improve when our provincial/franchise sides play against that kind of drivel?
Whatever happens, these global provincial competitions need to be cleaned up.
It has to revert to strength vs strength.
Bring back the S12, top 4 franchises from each country. Or if your going North, ensure that those minnows are relegated to a lesser league.
Cleanup the leagues, reduce the number of teams so its strength vs strength. That would certainly ensure I’d be interested and excited for any competition.
Oh and bring back the international tours of old.
That is all.
15 Nov 2011, 08:56 am
I’m going to weigh in here on a few points. I expect that some will dissagree with me, possibly very strongly, but in the interests of diverse opinion here this is my view:
1. Going North in place of SANZAR is a big mistake for the following reasons:
SANZAR governs not just Super Rugby but the Tri Nations Tournament as well, so losing one would possibly (likely) mean losing the international season too. This would mean that we (as consistantly a top 3 rugby playing nation) would lose the opportunity to play regularly against the players (Super Rugby) and the counties (Tri Nations) that make up the other 2. By playing up northe we’d end up playing against the Doug Howletts and co of the world. Been there done that.
If we go North we would be in the position of potentially being the “poor cousin” as it is put, with the more wealthy leagues having more say, just like we complain about now, but then we would have a genuine reason to be disadvantaged.
Travel would be easier in terms of time zones but would still be a good 12 – 15 hours minimum each time, which is totally different compared to the 2 – 3 hours for the other teams when they play against each other. Yes they’d play here too, but we would end up travelling much more than them.
We’d lose our edge by not playing against the other SH teams regularly. This is for me the most important reason.
2. We are not getting as bad a deal as some may think.
This is a give and take situation. yes our local broadcaster generates most of the revenue but a large part of that is because we are playing Australia and NZ, the other 2 best teams and countries in the world. Does no one else see that? Withouth them we’d just be playing with ourselves.
Yes Australia has improved their lot by getting a 5th team and the conference system. Yes it does impact negatively on our CC but a strong Australian conference is good for the competition.
Yes we have a bye first time out as Puma rightfully said, but then we also have other aspects of the travel which are in our favour as far as the schedule is concerned.
As far as Tri Nations is concerned, we ALWAYS play our last 2 games at home, whilst the other 2 often have to travel. This means that all our players are home and ready to go back into local CC action soonest.
We ALWAYS have the best TV viewing schedule of the 3 countries. We either see games in the morning or at our usual time. Imagine having to watch the Bulls VS Crusaders at 3AM or something like that? Not exactly great viewing time.
In conclusion, yes there are aspects of the SANZAR agreement that we have (rightfully) issue with, but on balance it’s not as terrible as we think. The geographics of travel accross time zones are possibly the worst aspect, and that’s just reality, it’s not anyone’s fault.
Now I’m not against playing Northern clubs at all, in fact it sounds very exciting, but this must be merged with the existing playing schedules, replacing some of the fixtures that we currently have in order to not overdo the playing season.
Just be careful what you wish for. If we merge our SANZAR partnership with the European one, we then become bit players in a much bigger setup, and we would be ripe for exploitation even more than we are getting it at the moment.
The key here is not to throw our toys and leave the SANZAR deal, but to appoint the correct people in the SARU structures who can take on the SANZAR partners on a level playing field and protect our interests better. Businessmen who are strong in the boardroom, not some oom who by virtue of serving on some committee for the last 40 years gets to go and face his rugby heroes (Eals and Co) and doesn’t have the savvy or spine to stand up to them.
15 Nov 2011, 08:56 am
@ufo(ufo)-109: Didn’t need you 1984-1992 and don’t need you now, pilgrims. Not now you’re only ranked #4.
15 Nov 2011, 08:57 am
@WOLFMAN21(WOLFMAN21)-111: perhaps….
But the historical links can not be ignored…..nor the time zones…….nor the huge support bases the North teams have…..
Sanzar rugby is dying…..even in SA we have teams playing to small crowds….never mind the crowds in Kiwiland…….
We have to think positively and find solutions….of course there are challenges…..there always are……but can there be more challenges than the time zones and soullless rugby being played today with Sanzar….?
No man Wolfie…..of course nothing will be perfect, but fark me this Sanzar has run its course and we are stagnating.
Bloggers talk of dropping standards if we head north? How farken low can we go? At least by playing up north we will have to revert to respecting 1 st phases again…..
No more bloody basketball for me……head North….
15 Nov 2011, 09:03 am
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-115: personally I believe we play the aussies and kiwis far too much…..far far far too much.
It is boring….I have been to so many aussie vs sa and kiwis vs sa tests….
I personally look far more forward to a SA France or Pom OR iRISH TEST, ETC…..
the scarcity value is gone….the mystique is gone….
I would say tri nations is boring as all hell……simply too much….
Every 2 nd year a test or 2 against Anzacs would be fine.
Look at the interest with B Lions ve Tri nations? Chalk and cheese….for me anyway.
Sanzar is dead….has been for a long time….mediocre…..
Give me the cosmopolitan NH any day……
15 Nov 2011, 09:05 am
You fly to Aussie and NZ and then you fly back to SA again. Both Oz and NZ do exactly the same. It’s not as if the season is over when you’re away legs are done. Some NZ teams fly to SA, complete their games there and then fly back to face a SA team who have been in NZ for 2 or 3 weeks already — and who have no jetlag left and play their “home” fixture with the same travel fatigue. Without a peep of complaint — mainly because they win, and therefore need no lame excuses.
15 Nov 2011, 09:05 am
@TheTackler(TheTackler)-116: I agree with you….
our standards have dropped in Sanzar.
Time for us to exit
we have overstayed our welcome
15 Nov 2011, 09:07 am
@grant10(grant10)-120: Those around you have simply upped their game. That’s why they’re #1 and #2 and you’re not. You’re tired of being the wooden-spoonists so often.
15 Nov 2011, 09:08 am
Yes have to agree. This sounds like a great idea,
As ‘ Grant 10′ says, Saffies have more affinity with The British than with Antipodeans , which is very apparent on this site I.e the whinge factor.
Although I must say the Boers may disagree with his view.
Anyway I think you’ll find us’ kissing cousins ‘are also bored with super rugby. It’s always felt a bit false and contrived.
It does get boring when one country dominates a tournament, it’s a bit like watching the Aussies win 500 gold medals in the commonwealth games,a nice little ego boost for them ,but who really cares.
NZ will always have talent and the ABs will always be strong. So let’s shake it up. I’d love to see a Saffie team sliding backwards in 2 feet of mud,before losing 6-3 to a penalty in injury time.
This scenario may also force the NZRFU,to make overseas players available for the ABs.in which case we would of had the ‘amazing ‘Dan carter replaced by the ‘incredible’ Nick Evans during the WC and we all could of chilled out a bit more.
So in conclusion,I realise it’s not much fun continually losing a competition,it makes you bitter and twisted,luckily for me I’m a crusaders and AB fan ,so don’t get to experience this misery too often.
If you feel you have to take your toys to a new play ground,to put an end to the bullying then that’s fine. I just hope your new playmates are a little more lenient with you
15 Nov 2011, 09:10 am
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-115: we have no soul with the Anzacs…..
I would never pay cash to head Down Under for a superrugby game.
Too far….too expensive…and no history there for me…
Now we play Leicester or Munster in a Final over there….try and keep me away!!
That is the difference……shorter flite by many hours…..family ties over there….history there…..kinship…..
and you overrating saffa rugby.
watch Toulouse…..Munster….Leicester….etc…..
I bet we go there we struggle……I bet you mate…
15 Nov 2011, 09:14 am
@TheTackler(TheTackler)-121: yip….we lagging far behind…..those there are the facts and the stats…..
But thats not the reason I advocate, for over a decade now, a move North…..for me it is about history, kinship, time zones and total ambivalence on my part related to the Anzacs[ and I say that honestly with no malice ].
15 Nov 2011, 09:14 am
@grant10(grant10)-105:
“and nothing quite beats thrashing the poms!”
And this is the reason as to why some on here want the move to happen.
15 Nov 2011, 09:16 am
@bokke baiter(bokke baiter)-122: The so called Boers will love smashing the poms…..
and some have a very strong historical ties with France as well…..
It is all about history to me…..no disrespect to you okes….I just have no ties to you lot…….and I am sure the feelings are reciprocated.
15 Nov 2011, 09:18 am
Zac in more kak
Fresh batch of Guildford allegations
Published: Tuesday, 15. November, 2011
All Blacks wing Zac Guildford faced fresh allegations on Tuesday stemming from a drunken binge that ended with him staggering naked and bleeding into a bar then assaulting two people.
Kelly Pick, a triathlete in the small Pacific nation of the Cook Islands, said Guildford also repeatedly made lewd sexual comments and harassed her as she was on a training run along a road on the main island Rarotonga.
“His behaviour was totally inappropriate to the point where I felt unsafe,” Pick wrote in a letter published in the Cook Islands News on Tuesday.
“He was obviously highly intoxicated and driving his rental scooter very dangerously and speeding like an idiot.
“I got back from my run totally shaken and angry that someone feels they have the right to harass and leer at other people.”
Pick told Radio New Zealand she had lodged a complaint with Cook Islands police about Guildford’s behaviour last Thursday.
“(He) can’t just continue this kind of behaviour and there be no consequences for him,” she said.
Guildford issued an apology on Monday over his conduct, saying he was “hugely embarrassed” and would seek help to “sort myself out”.
The 22-year-old, who has a history of problems with alcohol, was publicly reprimanded by All Blacks management during the recent Rugby World Cup.
He reportedly appeared at a popular Rarotonga bar last Thursday dripping wet, naked and bleeding from cuts believed to have come from a scooter accident earlier in the day.
The bar’s owner, Jack Cooper, told Radio New Zealand on Monday that the wing stumbled into the waterfront venue and hit two patrons, one of whom was celebrating his 60th birthday.
15 Nov 2011, 09:18 am
@Hurricane(Hurricane)-125: well those poms will moer us back 6 love……but the history is a great one…..even if unpleasant…..you and I have no history….no malice….just facts
15 Nov 2011, 09:19 am
@TheTackler(TheTackler)-116:
tackler… you left south africa how long ago…?
we didn’t need you then… we don’t need you now…
yet you come back to keo daily to validate your choice to leave… you’re not accepted as a new zealander and don’t want to be a south african… because you have no relevance in new zealand or in south africa…
the only relevance you can try and muster is posting your arrogant but tired anti- south africa tirade on keo because that is the only way you can try and make anyone take any notice of you at all…
you need keo and south africa to give your life any meaning at all…
you sad sad man…
like i said…
we didn’t need you when you lived in sa… we certainly don’t need you now that you don’t live here…
go get yourself a life man… with what time you have left… focus it on living… instead of making the most important thing in your life denigrating south africa…!!
15 Nov 2011, 09:20 am
zac is really in a bad state….htting a 60 year old/ No man….sort yourself out kid
15 Nov 2011, 09:24 am
@grant10(grant10)-123: You have a very romanticized view of the northern hemisphere and South Africa’s relationship with the north.
We might have time zones which are similar to the north, but we don’t have seasons which are similar, and our rugby calendar is profoundly different. South Africa would not head there as equal partners, because they would be the odd one out when it comes to the creation of a calendar, the shape of international rugby, and the desire to maintain the Currie Cup, which takes place in a completely different time period than the European season.
It would be South Africa against 3 or 4 or 5 countries who have had dealings with each other for a long time, who would most likely against as a bloc in their dealings with South Africa.
The key to the current malaise in South African rugby in relation to SANZAR is for SA rugby to figure out what they want, what is best for South African rugby and then to fight their corner, and negotiate as the majority stakeholder. There is no point in complaining about that horrible Mr. John O’Neill, who continuously walks over SARU, if SARU can’t use their dominant position for the good of South African rugby and for the good of SANZAR.
If SA rugby was ever to play in the northern hemisphere, it would not be on South Africa’s terms, and we would have to change our domestic rugby situation in order to be included in their rugby calendar.
15 Nov 2011, 09:25 am
@grant10(grant10)-128:
I take it you mean in history outside of rugby??
15 Nov 2011, 09:26 am
@grant10(grant10)-118: This is true, I would be in favour of a shortened Tri Series as well as a smaller Super Rugby Series.
Thing is, much of this ambivalence is partly boredom. We see so much of a certain type of rugby that we long for something different.
Super Rugby is by far more entertaining for me, with it’s higher scores and faster paced game. yes, if you watch too much of it, you become jaded, and this is what is happening at the moment. I feel it too. Doesn’t mean (to me) that I won’t begin to feel the same if I ended up watching the Stormers play 15 games that all sored 15 points or less in total (i.e. 10 -5 or 12-3 etc).
@grant10(grant10)-123: I also feel a closer affinity with Europe than Australasia. Most of us would. We all have friends there, many have relatives there. That alone isn’t, in my opinion, a good enough reason to ditch the other 2 top 3 nations and move our sporting program to them.
In my opinion we would dominate for the first few years and then adapt to their style, wnding with a slower paced game and losing touch with what the Aussie and Kiwis are doing. And for me that is a bad thing.
My 10c worth.
15 Nov 2011, 09:35 am
@grant10(grant10)-128: you’re putting too much unnecessary stock on this “history & soul”…i have NO ties or shared history with the British so why should i hanker to play with them over the aussies and kiwis?
i want to play against the best, PERIOD. nothing to do with inconsequential historic relations. before readmission who were the Springbok’s biggest rivals in Test rugby, the English?
15 Nov 2011, 09:35 am
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-133:
yep, a shortened super rugby series would be perfect.
2 teams from each country.
NZ– north Island team and a south island team
SA and OZ– draw a line either east west or north south
6 fukn strong teams.
15 Nov 2011, 09:36 am
Just remember as well that this is Ed Griffiths talking. Of course he;’d love for us to come up North. He has everything to gain and very little to lose.
Don’t be taken in just because he’s being friendly and charming.
15 Nov 2011, 09:37 am
@WOLFMAN21(WOLFMAN21)-131: i understand the complexity.
I also stand by the fact that Sanzar is a dead duck…..
so fix the complexity
and stop beatuing a sanzar dead horse….
mark my words….sanzar is the death knell of sa rugby…
15 Nov 2011, 09:38 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-134:
thats what i am trying to understand from Grants posts.
What history if he talking about?
I must say its out of rugby as my understanding is NZ and SA played more games against each other than any other teams before readmission let alone after.
15 Nov 2011, 09:39 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-134:
Agreed.
Kinship and history have taken over from Turboreverse and Plod as his favourite words.
Be prepared to hear them more often.
I am of Scots background yet that means fark all to me when it comes to SA rugby playing against the best. Whoever that may be.
15 Nov 2011, 09:40 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-134: maybe for you mate….but not for me…..
I want the North move…always will …always have…..
15 Nov 2011, 09:41 am
@grant10(grant10)-137: Anything and everything is the death knell of SA rugby because SARU are incompetent. If they can’t maximise their current position of power, what would they do if they were involved with European teams who have a position of power over them?
SA rugby is far too slow to adapt, and a shift up north won’t solve anything. SANZAR should be South Africa’s play ground, but instead South African rugby is the fat kid with rich parents being bullied in the play ground.
15 Nov 2011, 09:46 am
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-115:
zigactly.
the super 15 needs to be relooked though.
too many games. each country should have a domestic league and the top 2 from each should then fight it out for the title.
also the 4 nations tourney should be played in ONE country each year on a rotational basis. everybody plays each other once and the top 2 teams play a final and the the bottom two play the wooden spoon.
takes travel out of the equation and introduces some variety.
shorter super 15 leaves room for inbound tours.
15 Nov 2011, 09:48 am
@Gunther(gunther)-142:
also easier to introduce the kings and nobody has to lose out.
15 Nov 2011, 09:56 am
@Gunther(gunther)-142:
Yip. As per post 114 as well.
15 Nov 2011, 10:01 am
have posited before that we should shift the comps around…
play the CC/domestic rugby first…
then the top teams go through to the super league… taking their points with them…
that way we get the local derbies… (but not twice…) and there will be significantly less rugby… and not only will it not dilute CC rugby… it will strengthen it…
15 Nov 2011, 10:01 am
@John Galt(John Galt)-144:
In fact you could call the domestic round of the super tourney the currie cup.
full strength.
and then the top two teams play a six team tourney vs 4 from oz and new zealand.
I dare say that would help everybodies domestic comps.
15 Nov 2011, 10:04 am
@Gunther(gunther)-146:
snap gunther…
15 Nov 2011, 10:05 am
Yeah ‘grant 10′ is diffinitily on one. I’m not understanding his kin ship with the Brits theory. Obviously got Pom blood.
Not sure if he’s ever lived in pommyland,but I know he’d find all the Aussies,kiwis and saffers actually hang out and party together and there’s never many Brits amongst them
So I think your on your own there Grant.
15 Nov 2011, 10:23 am
@Gunther(gunther)-146: That would suit the Lions just fine. It’s our time to eat in the Currie Cup.
15 Nov 2011, 10:48 am
Play our club rugby with the north, stop the Supper 15, play the Tri Nations still each year, we still have the Currie Cup, very important.
The Anzacs wont like it, but they would agree to it for the revenue from the Tri Nations each year.
BUT…..cant see it happening any time soon, dont we still have a few years left on the contract with sanzar and dstv.
15 Nov 2011, 10:51 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-134: You do, the same as the Afrikaaners, your ancestors also fought the Brits didnt they?
The anzacs SA has no history with cept rugby i think.
15 Nov 2011, 10:51 am
@>^..^< katman(katman)-149:
indeed.
all the teams will be full strength for the entire competition.
you guys will have butch james back.
fantasties.
15 Nov 2011, 11:18 am
@Gunther(gunther)-152: Butch will be lucky to get game time. He’s third in line at flyhalf, and about 6th for inside centre. Maybe he and Carlos can share the mentoring role. Carlos does Monday to Saturday and Butch does Sundays and public holidays.
15 Nov 2011, 11:50 am
As a kiwi I would love it if SANZAR break up. NZ and Aus comp would be awesome, if they could get it up and running like the NRL rugby league it would be fantastic.
No disrespect but I have zero interest when the Saffa teams come to NZ.
Before super rugby started the NPC was awesome, now it is just a feeder comp
for up and coming super rugby sides.
If it went to a kiwi/Aussie NPC style comp it would be awesome!
Boks should go, it would be better for all involved. Except the standard
of rugby you’ll see in South Africa. However out of the three SH sides,
South Africa style is very similar to the NH style, i.e: very boring!!
15 Nov 2011, 11:54 am
@lawsy25(lawsy25)-154:
For a 1st ever post lawsy,(I think)
You have prospects my boy.
8)
15 Nov 2011, 11:55 am
@lawsy25(lawsy25)-154:
the hook is out. Lets just see what you catch.
15 Nov 2011, 14:19 pm
Not in agreement that the north plays inferior rugby to the south.
France should have beaten the All Blacks, Wales nearly beat the Boks and Ireland beat the luckiest quarter finalists in RWC history…Australia.
The Boks were beaten by two club teams in the UK.
15 Nov 2011, 15:21 pm
@Great White Shark(Predawn)-157: farken hell….here i am agreeing with you today
i feel strange!
15 Nov 2011, 17:41 pm
ANZACs would drop SA in an instant if the lure of cash and opportunity to mix with the Europeans was available to them. They have zero loyalty to South Africa.
15 Nov 2011, 18:32 pm
HongKongSlong – I agree. Its more the ozzies than the kiwis i can’t stand. I would rather pull our teams out of the S15 but keep the Rugby Championship!! The S15 is destroying our players. 2 SA teams contested the S15 title in 2010 however when the players got together for the international season they were flat out on their feet!!! Last we had the added derbies, in SA that generally means war!! SA derbies are hardcore, the players seem to want to kill each other!!
Ditch the expanded S15 but keep in the Rugby Championship.
15 Nov 2011, 19:07 pm
@Puma(Puma)-13: if Ireland can afford to keep their best players at home despite the overtures of French clubs then so can South Africa
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