Lions pivot training with Stormers
22 Nov 2011
Burton Francis ran with the Stormers when the Cape franchise began their pre-season training schedule on Monday.
Francis, who recently parted ways with the Lions, was in Cape Town on Monday running through drills with the Stormers. Officially, the Stormers have contracted only three new players in Joe Pietersen (Bayonne), Deon Carstens (Saracens) and Gerhard van den Heever (Bulls), but Francis could potentially provide further cover for the Stormers in the problematic flyhalf position.
The Boland trio of Bolla Conradie, Elgar Watts and Clemen Lewis also trained with the team on Monday. Having a player of Conradie’s experience in the greater training group will be a boon for the Stormers, and no doubt Watts’s performance in Boland’s title-clinching First Division campaign may have given head coach Allister Coetzee food for thought.
The Stormers recently lost promising flyhalf Lionel Cronje to the Bulls, and aside from Peter Grant, are lacking in experienced No 10s. Kurt Coleman has been exposed to Super Rugby while Demetri Catrakilis and Gary van Aswegen have played Currie Cup rugby, but none of the three, nor Watts for that matter, are established at Super Rugby level.
774 Comments
22 Nov 2011, 09:16 am
The Gollum Dragon is back.
22 Nov 2011, 09:17 am
With Habana secured,they only need to recall Naqelavuki and Thinus Linee, and the province backs are ready to cause havoc!!
22 Nov 2011, 09:19 am
bolla a boost?
pull the other one
22 Nov 2011, 09:22 am
it means nothing!
Watts played in the Plascon Velvet Cup for the Stormers last year but when sshit hit the fan in terms of injuries the Stormers scraped the barrel when they took Earl Rose on tour.
22 Nov 2011, 09:22 am
Bolla had a really good year, so he deserves his slot. if he’s fit and sharp he would make the perfect backup to Dewald.
As for Watts, we’ll see. I’ve always enjoyed how he runs with the ball.
Thing is, we now have a bunch of fairly good flyhalfs, I see Pissant was talking about Burton being signed as well, but we don’t have a great flyhalf.
We still need someone really good there. Gary has potential, Elgar is also Ok, Grant isn’t the answer, now Burton?
Eish.
22 Nov 2011, 09:24 am
Ah, a Stormers thread. Always fun.
22 Nov 2011, 09:26 am
According to unconfirmed rumours Errol Tobias was spotted exercising with the squad. During the sprinting evaluations he has beaten Habana seven out of ten times. Tobias is expected to be fully fit by July next year.
Don’t mock Boland’s contribution to the Stromers franchise.
22 Nov 2011, 09:26 am
How ols is Bolla now?
42?
Anyway he gyms with stormersboy so he must be in good nick.
Still laughing about Burton Francis.
22 Nov 2011, 09:27 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-4: True. It’s the prelim squad
22 Nov 2011, 09:30 am
so he must be good!
Trust in Gollum!
But where is The Mechanic….. now there’s a player! Also played above FdP. He must be great!
22 Nov 2011, 09:32 am
Did I hear that Pieter Louw has also left the Stormers?
So who exactly are their loose forwards now? And who is their fetcher?
Off the top of my head:
Duane Vermeulen
Schalk Burger
Err…Bunch of youngsters? Kolisi, Carr…who else?
22 Nov 2011, 09:33 am
@Gunther(gunther)-8: Cheeckyfucker.
Bolla is in fine shape. We did a pose down in the sauna.
It’ll be on youtube soon.
22 Nov 2011, 09:35 am
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-11: Yes, I don;t know what the story was. They released him from his contract. There must be more to that.
he was the only experienced fetcher we had.
I wouldn’t be surprised if there was another signing or 2 before the start of the competition,
Not Burton hopefully.
22 Nov 2011, 09:44 am
Fourie du Preez is/was uiters kakkas couldn’t even score a gimme f’ng try with no one to beat but a prima donna Cooper with an open try line begging for a 5 pointer in the quarter final he still managed to spill it, just like Burger fckd up one defensive and one attack opportunity to gift Aussie the game FdP handed the rest to them on a plate. At least if the mechanic was there a gimme easy peasy try would have been scored, and Boks might have contested the semi, with prima donna Mr. F’ng Genius FdP tassing for the ball playing ballerinas with Quade Cooper it turned out to be another prima donna dance No No.
22 Nov 2011, 09:46 am
Proteas are still in search of their first home series win against Aus……since 1970!!
Eisssssssh!
22 Nov 2011, 09:48 am
@wallabie.(wallabie.)-15:
yip, it’s crazy i know!
22 Nov 2011, 09:49 am
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-14:
hey my friend – you are to predictable…. 
no problem….
22 Nov 2011, 09:49 am
@Staal(Staal)-16:
BIL rugby se jy? Hard voor, wyd agter?
22 Nov 2011, 09:52 am
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-12: shape of buddha?
22 Nov 2011, 09:53 am
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-18: yip. Miskien meer Ian McGeechan rugby asb BIL rugby….
22 Nov 2011, 09:54 am
@Gunther(gunther)-8:
22 Nov 2011, 09:56 am
according to Rassie and AC Schalk Burger is the king of the open side and blind side all rolled into one so we don’t even need a playmaker at fly half because Schalk Burger takes ALL the second phase ball and bashes it up to never never land time and time and time again and again and again and again, just like that brilliant Schalk Burger fulcrum of the Bok game plan worked out so effectively vs Australia in the 1/4 final of the WC…
Hence Pieter Louw has been relieved of his contractual obligations because beside King Burger we got Kolisi, Kitschoff, Koster and Carr,.., the KKK & C brigade. Means like Francoise Louw too now Pieter Louw have both become surplus to requirements due to this immense genius strategically brilliant ploy at have King Burger do All the ground ball and carry ball and cover tackling duties all on his massively capable lonesome ownsome.
22 Nov 2011, 09:58 am
@Gunther(gunther)-8: Previously read some very negative comments on this blog regarding the Bulls for letting Burton go….not developing him and so on,
now he’s on his way again?
where is the negative comments regarding the Lions letting him go?
22 Nov 2011, 09:58 am
Staal
Hoope ons doen dit beter as wat Mceechan se Skotte dit regkry…
22 Nov 2011, 10:00 am
Staal, rakende Burton.
Het nounet dieselfde sit en dink.
22 Nov 2011, 10:02 am
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-22:
never never land 
sad but there is some thruth in that!
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-24: Time will tell but we can always adjust. We are in a building phase.
22 Nov 2011, 10:05 am
Staal
Ja. Kannie die S15 wen sonder 5 of 6 ervare wereldklas sterre in jou span nie, en ons huidige spelers is n hele paar jaar van daar af.
As ons die semis haal sal dit n goeie seisoen wees na my mening. Onder omstandighede.
22 Nov 2011, 10:07 am
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-27: Bly jy verwys na die S15.
Want dis die maatstaf – nie meer die CC nie. Imo…
22 Nov 2011, 10:11 am
How’s about posting the full training group?
Personally more interested in seeing who else made it, rather then discussing how old Bolla is.
Players like Eben Etzebeth, Reuben Johannes, Michael vd Spuy, JP du Plessis & Tshotsho Mbovane make the training group?
22 Nov 2011, 10:14 am
@Staal(Staal)-23:
Zigactly.
talk to me about elton jantjes younger brother.
I hear he is the dogs bollocks.
Decent prospect?
of nie?
22 Nov 2011, 10:15 am
@Staal(Staal)-28:
En in Barend se opinie, as jy sy Q&A’s op die Bulls blog so tussen die lyne lees.
Basies moet jy kies tussen die S15 en die Currie Cup, en daar is werklik net een opsie – meet jouself teen die bestes, anders mors jy jou tyd in n Mickey Mouse kompetisie, wat hartseer genoeg nou die realiteit van die Curriebeker is.
22 Nov 2011, 10:15 am
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-22:
You should support the Lions like Grant… and Namibia…
22 Nov 2011, 10:16 am
@Gunther(gunther)-30: Time will tell but IMO… nada.
LW! imo only.
22 Nov 2011, 10:18 am
@bryce_in_oz(bryce_in_oz)-32: Grantie is also the chairman of the “Bring back Luke Watson campaign!”
Sorry Grant.
22 Nov 2011, 10:19 am
@Staal(Staal)-34:
Ek **** Vic het n paar interessante goed te se oor LW en JS in sy boek. Seker niks nuus vir jou nie.
22 Nov 2011, 10:20 am
**** = ****. As in hear in Afrikaans. Catch a wake up, Keo.
22 Nov 2011, 10:21 am
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-35:
Interesting. Need to buy it then.
22 Nov 2011, 10:21 am
@bryce_in_oz(bryce_in_oz)-32:
Shame poor old grantie’s application for membership to Namibia’s Supporters Club has been filed in folder 13.
I suspect fuckadilly’s will end up in the same place.
They are simple honest farming okes.
They can’t be messing about with vegan Jehova’s Wintesses and Sauna lurkers.
22 Nov 2011, 10:21 am
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-36:
Magtig!
**** = h oor.
22 Nov 2011, 10:22 am
bolla?
*** me, maybe the sharks can bring back teichmann?
beyewdiful!
22 Nov 2011, 10:22 am
@bryce_in_oz(bryce_in_oz)-32:
he sure ain’t a WP supporter…
supporters support… haters hate…
22 Nov 2011, 10:23 am
@Gunther(gunther)-38:
oooh, gwantie and skopkak arent going to like that.
22 Nov 2011, 10:25 am
So how many trophies have Schalk Burger and Jean de Villiers won at senior provincial level in their illustrious careers?
Just wondering, seeing as they are undoubtedly two of the top Boks of the last 10 years. And Schalk has won SA player of the Year twice during this period, after all.
Just wondering if there is something strange going on here.
22 Nov 2011, 10:25 am
@Staal(Staal)-34:
Yeah… strange he apportioned no blame to Luke Watson not even being able to ‘lead’ his team to ‘win’ that 3rd rate comp they play in?
22 Nov 2011, 10:25 am
@Staal(Staal)-23:
problem is that its more of a loss to the lions than it is to burton.
for burton the problem is that he wants to be a first choice/starting lineup player and is therefore looking for a team where he can get such an opportuniy, however its rather unlikely this will happen at the stormers either and in truth he’s just going to be a backup/squad depth player (while having to go through the whole process of attempting to play his way into a first choice position all over again).
for the lions the problem is that this is exactly the sort of thing you need to build sustained success over the long term. namely, players who are prepared to accept less stellar roles as backups, subs, bench warmers, impact, utility, tackle baggers and so on as players and who know that at most they’ll get a few cameos over the course of their careers at best but will will never be first choice starters. the lions have their tiles, but you still some grout to fill the spaces inbetween.
in this regard i admire the bulls most of all the south african franchises (for being able to achieve it as well the players for being prepared to accept it) as they have had many such players fill those less stellar but equally vital roles of being ‘grout fillers’. this undoubtedly aided success at super level. having a strong first choice team as well as good secondary/supporting players, danie rossouw being a superb example but there are many more.
my two cents.
22 Nov 2011, 10:28 am
truth is that since luke left the stormers have reached more playoffs than ever, even a final or two under schalk.
schalk rocks.
22 Nov 2011, 10:29 am
Who poses with Bolla in the sauna
Only stormersboy
22 Nov 2011, 10:31 am
@au revoir mon tout noirs, au revoir…(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-45:
based on how many wp number 10s we got through this year… maybe francis stands a more than even chance of starting for the stormers…
as much as i rate him… i just don’t see gary van aswegen standing up to a full season of super rugby… he just doesn’t seem robust enough for the big league… which is a pity…
so maybe a move to the cape might actually work for francis…
22 Nov 2011, 10:32 am
@rangerman(rangerman)-46:
the problem with haters is they’ve gotta have someone to hate… it forces others to pay attention to them…
22 Nov 2011, 10:36 am
@rangerman(rangerman)-42:
I’m waiting for a knock on my door.
Grantie, has been particularly aggressive of late.
I think there is too much red meat in his diet
22 Nov 2011, 10:37 am
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-35: yip, hys nie oppie kerskaartjie lys nie.
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-39: het ook nou die dag gesien h oor is n vloekwoord!
@Gunther(gunther)-38:
@au revoir mon tout noirs, au revoir…(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-45: to be honest, as i was when he left… Burton is just average and a slowpow…. nothing personal – he is just not good enough.
@rangerman(rangerman)-46: Grant will counter that they haven’t won anything and would have if King Luke stayed.
Eish – sorry Grantie… sal nie weer nie!
22 Nov 2011, 10:44 am
@Upho(ufo)-49: true.
and i dont hate luke or anyone else.
so dont let me get to prominent on yer radar ok?
@Gunther(gunther)-50: haha, et will love that.
gwantie is a bit like an excitable poodle. woof woof
22 Nov 2011, 10:44 am
@Upho(ufo)-48:
firstly, i think for the stormers this past season was a bit freakish in terms of injuries in the #10 position. grant will come back and then theres still another 3 guys in the line who dont seem any less capable than burton to me.
secondly, burton seems to me a player who no matter how much he develops his game will always have a ceiling lower than some other competing player, then what.
this is life…some guys are good, some guys are better…
22 Nov 2011, 10:49 am
@rangerman(rangerman)-52:
hehehe…
it’s not my job to put anyone on any radar… nor do i want to…
the great thing about anonymous posting is that it allows posters to define themselves…!!
and everyone does…
22 Nov 2011, 10:52 am
@au revoir mon tout noirs, au revoir…(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-53:
i really haven’t watched enough of him to give a valid opinion on the guy… watched him play one (almost) full game for the lions…
but staal (and yours) are opinions i respect… so i will take your word for it…
it’s up to francis to prove us all wrong…
22 Nov 2011, 11:01 am
This is all so transparant: AC wants to ensure that Francis plays for the Boks during their EOTY tour next year.
He is a better player than Rose though so we should not complain.
22 Nov 2011, 11:08 am
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-11:
I think its only okes who live in Slummies and have strange Roman nics on blogs that still actually believe in this thing called a “fetcher”
Jake White’s vision of a “fetcher” remains far more apt…
22 Nov 2011, 11:10 am
Dunno whether its been posted here yet:
Adi Jacobs leaving the Sharks.
22 Nov 2011, 11:12 am
@Taahirah(Taahirah)-58:
So the average age of their midfield now increases…
22 Nov 2011, 11:26 am
@Taahirah(Taahirah)-58:
Yep….The Sharks procurement up to sh*t once again
He has not been resigned to a new contract-out in the cold.Leaving now likely to take up an overseas contract.He had hoped to finish career with Sharks.
Sharks keeping Marius Joubert…WHO IS OLDER than Adi & mediocre this past season.Adi still has plenty value especially of the bench & utility midfielder.
loyal Sharks servant has Adi Jacobs for the past 8 or so years…So much for loyalty I guess.Thats why I dont blames likes of Lionel Mapoe-go to the highest bidder as unions are full of sh*t.
How do Plumtree/Straeuli substantiate keeping Joubert and letting Adi go? Plumtree has curtailed Adi’s career at the Sharks in last 2 yrs or so. Adi should have NEVER played behind Terblanche for the 13 jersey at ANY point,neither should Joubert usurped him.
This is a fckin joke.
22 Nov 2011, 11:30 am
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-60:
Strange goings on down in Durban.
Really don’t understand what’s happened to their squad. If you look at the regression from the heady days of 2007 – when they lost the S14 final by 1 point – to today’s geriatric backline, it really does boggle the mind.
Can anyone doubt that they will be decent but not outstanding in next year’s S15? Probably a contender for topping the SA log, but nowhere near a contender for the overall trophy.
Is that satisfactory to Sharks fans?
22 Nov 2011, 11:37 am
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-61:
Its a joke Tac.A complete joke.
Plumtree,Straeuli,Hugh Reece Edwards managed to tear apart what **** Muir built after taking over shambles from Putt. Whatever people may say about **** he did a great job at the Sharks.
Natal cronies & vested interests-buddy buddy system. After Campo then **** leaving it been downhill since.
Big pity is that there is plenty quality in Beast,Bismark,Jannie,Deysel,Alberts,Daniel,Kankoski,Lambie,Mvovo,Ndungane add youngsters: Cooper,Mthembu,Jafta,Stander,H.Williams,Jordaan,Lindeque,Gouws,Coetzee etc
Enough there to have very good team to achieve great things,those Boks are all in mid 20′s and younger so have at least 3-4 seasons at peak.
But front office F*CKIN IT ALL UP.
22 Nov 2011, 11:46 am
Always thought Burton is underrated, would do a good job at the stormers if given decent time in the number 10 jersey.
Cant believe they still sticking with Duvenage
22 Nov 2011, 11:47 am
@Bod(bod)-57:
while you’re at it.
grab me a cold one.
22 Nov 2011, 11:50 am
Well he is a **** lot better than Rose.
22 Nov 2011, 11:54 am
@Gunther(gunther)-64:
Yip….. something like that. My kinda fetcher.
I must admit though with the goings on at Newlands over the past couple of months, I am being seriously tempted to donate my season ticket to one of my “fetchers” and rather go for a season ticket for the Levante reserves in downtown Valencia
22 Nov 2011, 12:01 pm
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-62:
There is one name missing in your name and shame list of idiots. The BIGGEST cnut of the whole bunch down in KZN is my ol buddy Bash…
Heavens alone know what he is still doing involved down there…
22 Nov 2011, 12:03 pm
@Bod(bod)-66:
I didn’t know they sold season tickets for the cheap seats.
you can probably get a job as a waterboy for the levante reserves.
just keep the cane in your hip flask.
and wear some decent shorts for goodness sake.
22 Nov 2011, 12:06 pm
@Bod(bod)-67:
Reason I left out Bashford is he is a non entity really. Doesnt do sh*t,no influencial enough to influence ANYTHING.
He should go back & coach at Northwood.
22 Nov 2011, 12:08 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-68: They are actually in a box next to the presidents suite.
Dont do the live sports thang unless its in a suite.
I have an image to uphold
And no….you cant have them
22 Nov 2011, 12:11 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-59:
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-60:
yeah…. i can’t believe how the sharks have treated this guy… the players they have started ahead of him are no way better than him…
he always makes things happen when he comes onto the field and has been one of our more creative centers over the last few years… and his defense is not near as bad as people make out…
i’m surprised he hasn’t up and left the sharks long before now… the fact that they are now turfing him out like and used coffee grounds says a lot about the sharks…
it says they’re as disloyal to their players as WP is… !!
good luck adi… hope you find a plum position with a great salary pack…!!
22 Nov 2011, 12:11 pm
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-69:
Dont underestimate his influence.
No, keep him away from Northwood!! We dont want them to start losing to the likes of DHS and College!!
22 Nov 2011, 12:11 pm
@Dawn(Dawn)-47: Come now Dawnie. Don’t tell me you wouldn’t pass up an opportunity to pose in a Sauna with Bolla!
22 Nov 2011, 12:12 pm
@Bod(bod)-70:
I don’t enjoy the president’s suite.
They make you wear a tie.
I prefer to watch at home where I can roll a tight one at half time.
22 Nov 2011, 12:13 pm
Havn’t read through all the comments, but bad business by the lions. Francis is the perfect 3rd flyhalf, competent CC player, and will be needed if either butch or jantjes get a Springbok call up or one of them get injured. Butch weak knees, and Jantjes been having problems with left knee for a while, so it might not last another season. But I understand he probably has higher ambitions for himself as player, but where will he fit in at WP?
22 Nov 2011, 12:19 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-74:
If you are the suite owner, you can rock up in a speedo, budgiehuggers and a Soft Shoes T shirt if you want, as well as offer a tight rolled one or two along with the biltong and droe wors platter
No… you still cant have them
22 Nov 2011, 12:20 pm
@14261774(14261774)-75:
exactly.
they have about 7 or 8 flyhalves… plus earl lurking about…
22 Nov 2011, 12:25 pm
So Bulls players will all be living in Tshwane by the end of next year. Bakkies is going to struggle to write down his own address!
22 Nov 2011, 12:25 pm
This is not so cool. I was seriously hoping Burton would remain our back-up flyhalf after Butch picks up his customary season ending knee/ankle/hip injury. I think he’s better than Butch anyway.
22 Nov 2011, 12:27 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-78: I reckon Bakkies is going to live in Swannie.
22 Nov 2011, 12:31 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-78:
Bakkies has people who do that for him.
Just like el presidente.
22 Nov 2011, 12:32 pm
@Bod(bod)-76: Or, as you call it, smart casual.
22 Nov 2011, 12:33 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-81: His parole officer?
22 Nov 2011, 12:35 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-81: Bakkies tells the Post office what he wants to put down as his address and they change the street name accordingly.
22 Nov 2011, 12:36 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-83:
nee.
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-84:
ja.
22 Nov 2011, 12:37 pm
@Bod(bod)-76: Ah.
So you know Grant10 then?
22 Nov 2011, 12:39 pm
@Taahirah(Taahirah)-86:
he wouldn’t recognise him with his kit on.
no.
22 Nov 2011, 12:42 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-78:
Never mind the Bulls players… think of thier fans.
Loftus, Tshwane
Now where does that leave Tac…. and Gunther??
22 Nov 2011, 12:42 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-87:
22 Nov 2011, 12:44 pm
@Bod(bod)-88:
It leaves me with 3 beds 3 baths, a garden and pool with views of table mountain.
why?
22 Nov 2011, 12:45 pm
@Bod(bod)-88: Its just some grandstanding by the executive mayor.
Afriforum is consulting their lawyers as we speak.
Rumor has it they started this rumor.
The ANC’s handling of the Ju-Ju matter left them twiddling their thumbs, they needed another cause.
22 Nov 2011, 12:49 pm
@Taahirah(Taahirah)-86:
Ja I know he has the same penchance as me for showing off our ripped abs in a speedo. Its OK though,there is room for both of us, as he has the patent for the Camps Bay/Clifton seaboard, whilst I dominate the Western Mediteranean seaboard
22 Nov 2011, 12:51 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-90:
Next you are going to be wanting Newlands my suite tickets.
Forget it!
22 Nov 2011, 12:52 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-90: buddy, here’s a heads up, let’s link up on email and i’ll give you more details.
i’m thinking trampolines for the rural kids, crossbows aka archery for the township blokes etc. holla!
The government, the SA Sports Confederation and Olympic Committee and the Department of Education will ensure that physical education is compulsory and implemented in all schools; that teachers qualified in physical education are employed; the equipment required to roll out physical education is sourced; and a weekly structured school sports league is implemented.
Schools will also be lobbied to provide healthy meals for pupils.
For the plan to work in all of South Africa’s 32000 schools, the department would need to establish sports facilities.
Mbalula said they have done a facilities audit to determine which schools – especially those in rural areas – need sporting facilities.
He said he was finalising an agreement with the Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs Department and Human Settlements to have 15% of the funds allocated through the m unicipal i nfrastructure g rant set aside for sports facilities.
“When a mayor wants to go on a trip to New York, he decides to redirect that money to the trip and not build facilities.”
22 Nov 2011, 12:56 pm
@Bod(bod)-92: did you see levante get walloped by atletico? it seems the luck has run out, wheel coming off?
22 Nov 2011, 12:57 pm
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-62:
Sharks preseason training group.
Props: Beast Mtawarira, Dale Chadwick, Jannie du Plessis, Wiehahn Herbst, Julian Redelinghuys. (Eugene van Staden will return in January)
Hookers: Bismarck du Plessis, Craig Burden, Kyle Cooper
Locks: Ross Skeate, Alistair Hargreaves, Anton Bresler, Jandre Marais, Pieter-Steph du Toit
Loose Forwards: Keegan Daniel, Jacques Botes, Willem Alberts, Jean Deysel, Ryan Kankowski, Marcell Coetzee, Tera Mtembu
Scrumhalves: Charl McLeod, Conrad Hoffmann, Cobus Reinach
Flyhalves: Fred Michalak, Pat Lambie, Jacques-Louis Potgieter
Centres: Meyer Bosman, Marius Joubert, Tim Whitehead, Paul Jordaan
Wings: JP Pietersen, Odwa Ndungane, Lwazi Mvovo, Sbura Sithole
Fullbacks: Louis Ludik, Riaan Viljoen, Gouws Prinsloo
Not a terrible looking squad outside of the obvious weaknesses at lock and centre.
22 Nov 2011, 12:58 pm
@Bod(bod)-88: Tac pointed out a while back with notable interest that inlanders were fleeing to the coast. He’ll defect and will be a Bellville resident before you know it!
22 Nov 2011, 12:59 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-94:
you know Maevis and I submitted that trampoline tender as a missile defense system for the air force.
we got thousands of them.
Fikile is grandstanding to divert attention from the fact that he can’t keep his hosepipe in his broeks.
22 Nov 2011, 12:59 pm
“It’s rumoured that Kenny Kunene is broke and his Lamborghini is being repossessed by the bank. Kenny is denying the rumours and says he is “going to stand until ***** ****** comes back”. ”
From IOL
22 Nov 2011, 13:01 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-94:
Having been deeply involved in building sporting facilities in rural SA it raises my blood levels every time I see these killer audits, plans and blueprints for sporting facilties in these areas, yet they all dont take into account the most important aspect of ALL….. a realistic, functional and FUNDED maintenance plan!!!!
Its simple…. no maintenance plan…. dont buuild the fekking thing!
Touchy subject for me this one..
22 Nov 2011, 13:01 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-99:
******* *****
the ******* sheriff?
22 Nov 2011, 13:01 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-97:
He will never leave Slummies…
22 Nov 2011, 13:04 pm
@Bod(bod)-100:
no maintenance plan?
sounds like your hyundai getz.
22 Nov 2011, 13:05 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-103: Ouch.
I just bought the fiance an i20 a couple of weeks ago.
Go easy on the Hyundai’s.
22 Nov 2011, 13:05 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-95: Ja, both my sides wheels are on a rapido path to oblivion…. Levante and the Chelsea.
Then fekking Real get diabolically lucky against Valencia and the Proteas yet again cant do a batting side on the final day of a test
I am about to slit my sporting wrists..
22 Nov 2011, 13:08 pm
@Taahirah(Taahirah)-104:
the hondnaai i20?
22 Nov 2011, 13:09 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-106:
Indeed.
22 Nov 2011, 13:10 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-106: She was holding out for a Mini Cooper Convertible.
Simple truth is I dont love her that much.
22 Nov 2011, 13:11 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-103:
It is only the Katters that has this habit of revelling in driving female cars around.
I took possesion of my new choice of weapon last week… A thundering, almighty babemagnet Renault Kango. Hummer owners watch out…
22 Nov 2011, 13:12 pm
@Taahirah(Taahirah)-108: sies man!
22 Nov 2011, 13:14 pm
@Bod(bod)-109: neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
22 Nov 2011, 13:14 pm
@Staal(Staal)-110: Jammer Oom.
Maar nie almal van ons het wildsplaas geld nie.
22 Nov 2011, 13:14 pm
@Taahirah(Taahirah)-108:
sounds like you are a keeper
@Bod(bod)-109:
renault kango?
that sounds like a gstring for athletic women.
22 Nov 2011, 13:18 pm
@Bod(bod)-109: And that will then be the last time you ever rag me for the car I drive.
A Renault Kango?
Unless you run a doggie parlour or work for DHL, no man shall drive such a thing.
Or do you sleep in the back?
22 Nov 2011, 13:19 pm
@Staal(Staal)-111:
Seriaaas… 2006 model nogal.
Fits just me, the mountain bike and a crate of wine in it. So no room for wives, kids or anyone else, cant get to over 80k’s/h so niks spietkop probleme nie.
Perfect buy…
22 Nov 2011, 13:20 pm
@Bod(bod)-115: ok – good reasoning there.!
22 Nov 2011, 13:21 pm
@Bod(bod)-115: that mountain bike must be a 26′er cause a 29′er will friggen never fit in there…
22 Nov 2011, 13:22 pm
@Bod(bod)-115:
Reminds me of my first car. A 1.2l Fiat Siena.
I tried my very best to get a speeding fine.
It never happened for me.
22 Nov 2011, 13:22 pm
@John Galt(John Galt)-96:
Good enough squad but its worse off than this years 2011 S15 team with losses like Mostert,Sykes,Jacobs..Who still finish mid table & got smashed in quarter final.
Only real gains in CC are Sithole,Cooper,Coetzee who can make immediate impact next year.They missed a beat by not playing Jordaan at ALL.
Good to see Lubabalo “Terror” Mthembu in the squad.Gifted player that boy,also SA u20 last year and SA 7′s this year. A genuine skilled,linking 8. Unearthed by the talented Sean Everitt.
Plumtree selections will bugger it all up again unfortunately. Sharks will have to be carries by Bismark,Alberts,Deysel as all ball carrying momentum and strike power comes from them.Non existent midfield makes backs lame. Teams will flog defenders at 1-2-3 punch tactic by Plumtree(Bismark-Alberts-Deysel)…then GAME OVER.Easy to beat Sharks
22 Nov 2011, 13:23 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-114:
Bod’s actually very disappointed with his choice.
He’s furious with the salesman who pretended to be a fellow Oasis fan and talked him into buying an orange demo model.
His wife told him to get over himself and don’t look back in amber.
22 Nov 2011, 13:24 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-114:
No, any man that has ever climbed behind the wheel of a Tazz whill be scarred for life… that is a simple fact in life…. build a bridge and get over it.
Dont try and worm your way out of this one
22 Nov 2011, 13:26 pm
@Staal(Staal)-117:
Moenie my so vloek nie.
29′rs are for XC (spit) girls…. I dont do XC!
‘seblief!
22 Nov 2011, 13:28 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-120: The salesman also told him it had 4 wheel drive. Naturally Bod was skeptical, but after walking around the vehicle together and counting them, he was satisfied.
Wasn’t the Kango the first car ever to break a wind tunnel?
22 Nov 2011, 13:29 pm
Yeesh some women are spoilt rotten around here.
22 Nov 2011, 13:29 pm
OK its been fun…. MacGuyver is about to start on televicion espanola 1
Bod out
22 Nov 2011, 13:29 pm
Elgar Watts a far better prospect at 10 than Francis we just got rid of one Gaffie proposition in Lionel Cronje thank the good lord of good mercies its one less Gaffie nasty booter type proponent to deal with, now we import another one in Francis…
Van Aswegen, Watts, Catrakillis, plus Cole and Grant is more than ample enough cover at 10 and all better prospects at the Stormers type game than Burton Francis who is about 5th in line in the pecking order… he might as well have stayed at Lions because he shouldn’t get a start ahead of either of Van Aswegen, Coleman, Watts, Grant or Catrakillis…
22 Nov 2011, 13:31 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-123:
I’ve just googled it.
I’m suprised they got it in the wind tunnel.
I suspect they used a wind shed.
22 Nov 2011, 13:32 pm
@Bod(bod)-121: The Tazz is a legend, and always will be. I’d happily trade my Megane for my old Tazz.
The Kango, however, is the lovechild of Postman Pat’s van and a bread bin. But I’m truly happy for you if this is what you need at this stage of your life.
Will this be the car you keep till the end?
22 Nov 2011, 13:33 pm
I want a Dodge Calibre
Who’s buying.
22 Nov 2011, 13:33 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-126: This is a car thread now. Go talk your rugby kak elsewhere.
22 Nov 2011, 13:35 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-127: It’s got the side profile of a tetris block. I think they constructed the wind barn around it.
22 Nov 2011, 13:35 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-130:
22 Nov 2011, 13:37 pm
@Dawn(Dawn)-129: Nee man, get a real car. How can you go from driving a beemer to driving a dodge? You’re worse than Bod.
22 Nov 2011, 13:38 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-130:
fuckadilly won’t like that.
@>^..^< katman(katman)-128:
I suspect it will be.
I can’t see anyone else buying it from him.
His poor wife wanted a convertible.
He explained that it could be converted from a delivery van into a cosy camper.
for those intimate min breaks on the costas.
22 Nov 2011, 13:39 pm
the trick here in Bulls country is to get yourself an old beatup rusty F10 Ford so that even the Taxi’s are worried when you get to close…
22 Nov 2011, 13:42 pm
@Dawn(Dawn)-129:
Nobody.
That’s why they’re cheap.
22 Nov 2011, 13:52 pm
Let’s see if we can steer this back to rugby:
In die ’80s speel Polisie teen UCT. Cliffie en Skattie Etsebeth is Polisie se voorry en slot. Polisie se lynstaantekens is die normale 7, 12, 5, 9 ens. maar UCT gebruik woorde soos Pathagoris,Kwadraat, Hippokratis ens. Daar was weer ‘n lynstaan en dit is UCT se bal. Terwyl die manne oplyn en wag, roep UCT se haker weer die tekens. Cliffie staan skynbaar voor en draai om en kyk na sy broer met die volgende woorde:
“Skattie, vergeet al daai snaakse nommers,……… hulle gooi heeltyd op daai **** met die rooi baard”
Dis die dae toe WP nog die Curriebeker gewen het!
22 Nov 2011, 13:55 pm
new look Bok squad vs the old traded in dead beats
Taute, Viljoen, Lambie
Aplon, Mapoe, Sithole
Fourie, Sadie
JdV (c), De Jongh
Engelbrecht, Mvovo
Jantjies, Goosen, M. Steyn
Hougaard, Duvenhage
Vermeulen, Strauss
Alberts, M. Coetsee, Elstadt
Minnie, Kolisi, Brussow
Bekker, Kruger, Franco Vd Merwe
Flip Vd Merwe, Mostert
JdP, Oosthuizen, Cilliers
BdP, Chili (vc), Maku, Strauss
Steenkamp, Gerber, Mtwarira
22 Nov 2011, 13:56 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-126:
you forgot dollie.
22 Nov 2011, 13:59 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-130: start your own fckup car retread thread dickheaded dooscumpseudo intellectual idiot..
this is till primarily a rugby site take your bod schmocks and your gunthergwatholes and go wipe youranus elsewhere with them…
22 Nov 2011, 14:00 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-140: What car do you drive?
22 Nov 2011, 14:02 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-141:
Classic.
22 Nov 2011, 14:03 pm
@Taahirah(Taahirah)-142: Ill save you the trouble Skop.
Im a fuckadillypieceofexcrementtwatupkattersass.
There.
Take a break, you deserve one.
22 Nov 2011, 14:04 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-141:
I think we covered this grounf before.
According to fuckadilly he has owned them all.
All we can find on the Department of Transport Database is a 1987 Nissan 1400 bakkie.
code 3.
the champion of africa.
22 Nov 2011, 14:05 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-141:
sheezuz!
22 Nov 2011, 14:05 pm
I drive a Nissan diesel 1 ton bakkie it suits my purposes just fine
WP don’t need Burton Francis, he should be 4th or 5th in line behind Van Aswegen, Watts, Catrakillis, Grant, etc..
just gonna grow more splinters out his arse down here he thought it was bad behind Jantjies and Butch gonna be worse here.. WP / Stormers have enough fly halves even with Dollie in the mix somewhere down the pecking order..
22 Nov 2011, 14:05 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-11: Oh no. Pieter Louw is of a dying breed: loyal, hard working, a real team player. The team that gets him is privileged.
22 Nov 2011, 14:06 pm
@H(H)-147: And saves a fortune on shampoo in the players showers.
22 Nov 2011, 14:07 pm
A Nissan 1400 can easily take 1 ton of bricks
22 Nov 2011, 14:10 pm
Fcking seen this MacGuyver episode already
Imagine going through the life with a name like Joel…
22 Nov 2011, 14:10 pm
Pieter Louw is a big loss H is 100% correct.. these days its all the prima donna glory arses like Burger, Habana, Fourie, FdP etc and etc that collect all the plaudits when its the die hard loyal work horses like Pieter Louw that actually do all the dirty work.. he and F. Louw gonna be big losses this year..
Elstadt, Kolisi, Carr, Koster, Kitschoff gonna have to step it up to make up for those two losses..
22 Nov 2011, 14:11 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-146: Do your carbon emissions make you uncomfortable?
22 Nov 2011, 14:13 pm
another c’ntarse bought it hook line and sinker – imagine being a doosarse moronic pseudo intellectual idiot like this schmuck @Bod(bod)-150: all your fckdup life..
22 Nov 2011, 14:15 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-152: you need some carbon emissions up your nostrils just to set that fckdup pseudo intellectual arselick face of yours straight
22 Nov 2011, 14:16 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-152:
he has aircon.
no problem there then.
22 Nov 2011, 14:16 pm
that me out.. back to the salt mines in my Nissan diesel bakkie
continue with the arselicking small talk arseholes..
I thought was the place to talk rugby some of the time here.. seems I might have been wrong
22 Nov 2011, 14:18 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-156:
bye joel.
put some sunscreen on.
it’s fierce out there.
22 Nov 2011, 14:18 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-154: I’m just trying to ascertain whether you really need to drive a big, heavy, spluttering oil burner. That’s all. Don’t get all uppity with me just because I ask the difficult questions. On this blog you sound kind of Nissan 1400-ish. Wouldn’t that be a better match for you?
22 Nov 2011, 14:21 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-153:
I can understand your emotions, as it cant be aasy having to go through life being called Joel.
However there is hope for you as you do two things very well:
1 You swear extremely well. Puff out the chest out there son, quite an accomplishment
2 Your rugby knowledge is commendable and I agree with most of your points of view. Hell, you are even one of the few that realise Patrick Lambies correct position is fullback
So you have two positives to start with…
Now if we could just change that name of yours, it will be like lifting your Nissan one tonner off your back
22 Nov 2011, 14:22 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-155: Joel hasn’t refilled his aircon gas since 1987 because he thinks R45 is a rip-off.
22 Nov 2011, 14:25 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-158:
the only reason it’s an oil burner is because Joel uses the choke as a handle for his mansak,
22 Nov 2011, 14:28 pm
adi is FAT, his conditioning leaves a lot to be desired, every year he looks fatter.
22 Nov 2011, 14:28 pm
no gunther anywhere on the list?
SA tycoons among Africa’s richest
Subashni Naidoo | 20 November, 2011 02:44
South Africans have made the Forbes list of the 40 richest people in Africa – with a collective net worth of more than $20-billion (R160-billion).
Nicky Oppenheimer, Johann Rupert, Christo Wiese and Patrice Motsepe are listed among the 10 wealthiest people on the continent.
It is the magazine’s first list of the 40 richest in Africa and is a “testament to the growing global importance of the continent”.
It was derived, according to Forbes, using stock prices and exchange rates on November 2.
The combined wealth of the 40 – all of them men, and with an average age of 61 – is $64.9-billion (R519-billion).
Nigerian construction mogul Aliko Dangote is the richest with $10.1-billion (R80-billion) . His wealth is based on his stake in Dangote Cement and his interests in flour milling, sugar refining and salt processing.
In second place are South African diamond magnate Oppenheimer and family with $6.5-billion (R52-billion).
Forbes said Dangote and Oppenheimer were two of 16 billionaires in Africa. Egypt boasts the largest number of billionaires in Africa with seven, and South Africa follows in second place with four 10-figure fortunes.
22 Nov 2011, 14:28 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-160:
understandably…
R45 for a 160ml bottle of sunsilk conditioner in those days was farking expensive…
and it’s gone in two or three squirts…
and the air still smelt of diesel fumes…!!
22 Nov 2011, 14:29 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-162: Agreed.
Question is:
Is he a worse bet than Marius Joubert and/or Stephan Terblanche?
22 Nov 2011, 14:30 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-163:
gunther flies under the radar.
stealth wealth baby.
but I have a godfather on that list
22 Nov 2011, 14:30 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-151: how many seasons must we wait for Nick Koster to be the “REAL DEAL” we were promised?
22 Nov 2011, 14:35 pm
@H(H)-147:
so true, so wise…
@>^..^< katman(katman)-152:
22 Nov 2011, 14:35 pm
Seriously, think of it, it MUST be kak
Joel
I thought Gunther was a bad, but….. Joel
That takes the cake
22 Nov 2011, 14:42 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-167:
its tragic whats happened to that kid.
he’s a rugby version of benjamin button.
started out his rugby life wise and old beyond his years only to become progressively more infantile and childlike with every year…..
yes…the curious case of benjamin koster….shame…
22 Nov 2011, 14:42 pm
@Taahirah(Taahirah)-165: i’d hazard a guess that they’re fitter than him.
22 Nov 2011, 14:45 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-162:
Yeah but he is STILL better than Terblanche & Joubert with their PRISTINE conditioning…Just like Guthro’s chubby gat is better than Beast…
Im a huge proponent of conditioning but its not the ultimate deciding factor.Play on the pitch holds a larger weight with me..Eg: I would play Thomas Waldrom with his double chin ahead of Spies * his doppelganger Vito.
22 Nov 2011, 14:47 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-163:
no wealth distribution?
22 Nov 2011, 14:51 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-163: lemme give you idea of the kind of livestyle Rupert has…
were playing 18 at LCreek the morning..
after the game he flew down to Newlands for the bok test.
after the test he flew back and we had a massive braai…
yip – thats how he does it!
22 Nov 2011, 14:52 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-167:
Koster needs to put some weights on that frame especially lower body or at least work on his core strength & power in contact. Loses his feet too easily.Look good in space but seems to have the Spies syndrome just with better ball skills.Mallett built this kid up too much,Bishops & WP too…Loosefwd is no place for perenial “racehorses”…Need to toughen up-correct error rate.Gain the tough yards.
Till he learns to do that AT WILL…he aint gona be sh*t but a well built,fast but ultimately fallible forward.
22 Nov 2011, 14:52 pm
back to rugby..
honestly anyone still rating AD must have fallen on his head!
sorry..
22 Nov 2011, 14:53 pm
@Staal(Staal)-174: Mango really exposed many to air travel.
22 Nov 2011, 14:54 pm
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-172: guthro is a Prop man, adi be looking bigger than Bastearaud these days, hell no!
he’s got the rugby smarts, that i won’t take from him but if Mark Steele is giving reports to Plum and Adi’s numbers ziyasilela, then only he can change his fortune.
22 Nov 2011, 14:58 pm
@Staal(Staal)-174:
does he have blue lights on his car too?
22 Nov 2011, 14:59 pm
“Francis could potentially provide further cover for the Stormers in the problematic flyhalf position”
Enough said
” Having a player of Conradie’s experience in the greater training group will be a boon for the Stormers”
Stormers supporters, you better believe it
22 Nov 2011, 15:01 pm
The mole hunter is back sprouting his kak again i see, having a go at Bolla’s age when the Sharks have played Terblanche way past his pension date and go and buy the “sping chicken” otherwiswe known as Marius Joubet ……………, what a twat !!!!!……………… stick to telling us how to catch moles you pra t !!! !!!
22 Nov 2011, 15:04 pm
http://www.static1.keo.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/koster-300×195.png
22 Nov 2011, 15:06 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-166:
I trust your uncle Aliko Dangote is well then ???
22 Nov 2011, 15:07 pm
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-175:
Yep, dead right
he is an injuries prone loosie, the future are Kolisi and Carr !
they already have all the attributes
Lobert too!
22 Nov 2011, 15:11 pm
@justrugby(justrugby)-183:
its a god father not an uncle.
stick to what you know.
felching and baminton.
22 Nov 2011, 15:11 pm
@Taahirah(Taahirah)-177: Private jet!
@charo(charo)-179:
no only Political mongrels have.
@Hondo(Hondo)-184: Loberts?
22 Nov 2011, 15:12 pm
Lobberts has improved this year.
he could actually make a squad contribution in the coming Super 15 comp.
Pieter Louw is a big loss, Skop is 1000 000 % right
22 Nov 2011, 15:19 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-185:
Since when can an uncle not be a god father ???
22 Nov 2011, 15:21 pm
rohan kitshoff is stormers fetcher….is he training with the squad?
22 Nov 2011, 15:22 pm
@justrugby(justrugby)-188:
if it was an uncle I would have said so.
now run along.
22 Nov 2011, 15:24 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-190:
I bet old Aliko still rocks you on his knee !!!
You must however be a big dissapointment to him !!!
22 Nov 2011, 15:24 pm
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-175:
In his own way, Rassie Erasmus, the Stormers coach, has acknowledged the relevance of the argument. For when Erasmus started talking about trying Koster on the wing, he was not really saying that he had spotted a great wing in the making, but a player that was extremely young yet way too good to be left out of the team completely.
‘The people who ask me why he’s going to play wing suggest to me that maybe I should send him to sevens instead. But you tell me, what is going to benefit Nick more, exposure to Super 14 rugby, even if it is in a different position to what he is used to, or playing sevens, which really is a completely different game?’ asks Erasmus.
The coach never said it, but only because he didn’t need to – does Koster need the skills fine-tuning which is implied when a player goes to sevens? If you listen to the people who have been pivotal in Koster’s development, and who have helped with the nurturing process, he is one of those rare players who possessed sublime skills while still in the womb.
Nick Mallett, formerly director of coaching at Western Province and also an erstwhile parent supporter of the Bishops 1st XV that Koster was part of, has been aware of Koster’s talents for almost a decade.
‘Koster first came to my attention when he was U10 and he played rugby against my son for Bishops Prep,’ recalls Mallett. ‘He was initially so much bigger and stronger than the other boys his age, he was one of those really early developers. He already stood at six foot when he was 13. So, while his performances were noteworthy, you couldn’t take too much notice of him then as you knew that the other boys would catch up in terms of physique.
‘That was always going to be his big test, playing against the other guys his age on a level playing field where he wasn’t bigger than them. But I am thankful to say he quickly showed that he was just a very gifted and talented sportsman in his own right.
His skills were unbelievable, and one of the things that impressed me was how he bulked up by 20kg when he had a year away from the game, and yet just didn’t lose speed.
‘When someone that skilful has physical ability and has speed, then you know you are onto something special. He played 1st XV when he was still U16, and did not look out of place. He played Western Province Schools in his first year of 1st XV rugby, and in one of the big Craven Week games I saw, he had a really great game even though everyone knew he went into it carrying an injury.’
It was then that Mallett, realising that some of the other provincial unions would also be taking notice and would be keen to contract him, decided to act by offering Koster a senior deal with WP.
‘I didn’t want to see him go to the Bulls or the Sharks, who were quite openly recruiting young players at that time and offering to pay for their education.’
22 Nov 2011, 15:24 pm
@justrugby(justrugby)-188: So you have a godfather in the furniture business?
22 Nov 2011, 15:31 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-193:
JustBadminton’s godfather used to come round in the afternoon and give him a tenner to go to the movies for a few hours.
not sure whether he was in the furniture business though.
22 Nov 2011, 15:32 pm
elton Jantjies training with Stormers team would have had me excited.
22 Nov 2011, 15:33 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-194: go wash the picanto queen
22 Nov 2011, 15:36 pm
Sias Eberson should come down here. That’s the answer. He’s going to end up another Burton or JLP if he stays where he is.
Jaques Botes should come down here too. He’s similarly in danger of fading off the scene.
He’d get a starting slot here.
The youngsters have talent for sure but need to come in off the bench still, or play some of the rotation games rather. Don’t push them too soon.
22 Nov 2011, 15:36 pm
@grant10(grant10)-196:
pipe down saunaman.
your lapdog started the yapping.
if she won’t behave then put a leash on her.
22 Nov 2011, 16:10 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-192:
Hmmmm…Should have gone to play Sevens…then.Rassie was being hard headed,Complete balls up playing Koster on the wing.Set him back-regressed.
Look at how many AB loosies played sevens at 19/20 and it helped them tremendously-So’oialo,Vito,Messam etc
Rassie & Mallett f*ckd up.Baphapha
22 Nov 2011, 16:10 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-193:
Good man is uncle Joshua !!
@Gunther(gunther)-198:
Aliko not pay for your pilates class, you seemed stressed ???
Anyway the refreshing of these pages is making me befark, till later !!!
22 Nov 2011, 16:19 pm
Some real class on display here today, it seems.
22 Nov 2011, 16:30 pm
@WP Till I Die(WP-Forever)-201:
thangyaverymuch.
22 Nov 2011, 16:36 pm
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-199: you think they would let their so-called boy wonder go and play in what most saffas see as a dumping ground for vodacom cup level player who will never get a super rugby contract?
how would the justify it to wagner who they begged to put koster in a “professional contract” straight from high school?
that’s like drafting le bron james and then sending him to the CBA to mature
22 Nov 2011, 16:39 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-197:
Plenty of good capable opensides around that could contribute:(to many a squad)
Kabamba Floors
Jacques Botes
Johan Wessels
Renaldo Bothma
Johan van Deventer
Wesley Wilkins
22 Nov 2011, 16:46 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-203:
Nah they thought he was a boy wonder,if they dont watch out he might end up like Greg Oden/Kwame Brown…who maybe shouldve stayed in or attended college to mature.
22 Nov 2011, 16:50 pm
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-204: I like Botes. He’s a genuine opensider who can consider himself unlucky to not have gotten a Bok call up a year or two ago.
WP need an experienced opensider who plays to the ball well if they are to compete against the Pococks and Co. And by Co i mean Ratel, Stegman, Daniels, Minnie’s of the world.
We don’t have anyone of that standard (yet) who can challenge for that sort of role at the level required. We have some promising prospects but they need to some through with some time IMO.
22 Nov 2011, 17:12 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-206:
To be honest, Botes is not a genuine opensider. he is more of a support runner,off shoulder of ball carrier.Scores a lot of tries like that, a tearaway. His efficiency on the ground has never been his strongest point-is hardly amongst the highest in turnovers. He is a classic tearaway. More in the Wilson,Dusuatoir,Daniel,Tybilika,Adam Thompson type. Not a Smith,McCaw,Brussow,Pocock mould. Decent but not a breakdown “warrior”
22 Nov 2011, 17:15 pm
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-207: You recon?
I always pegged him for a “bottom of the ruck” kind of guy.
22 Nov 2011, 17:15 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-203:
Your vendetta against Koster has been going on for quite a while – it did not stop the WP management from awarding him the trophy as their best forward for 2011.
Do you think it is because they are not reading keo or because you were not convincing enough in condemning him
On a more serious note, I admit that he has so far failed to live up to the very high expectations but as he is only 21 years old it is far too early to write him off. You might still become a convert, just be a bit more patient with the bloke.
22 Nov 2011, 17:16 pm
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-207:
By the way this is in no way disrespecting current IRB player of the year Dusuatoir.But he is more of a hybrid.His workrate is his best attribute rather than a breakdwon specialist. He is everywhere,highly accurate in his tackling and setting up a target when he carries low and hard. But turnover wise he isnt primarily as efficient there.Great player nonetheless
22 Nov 2011, 17:20 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-208:
He does get in there but not nearly as efficient there.Like Fllors at his peak,tried hard in rucks BUT best when with ball in hand,running off ball carrier.Timing on the the ball is fantastic-Botes.
22 Nov 2011, 17:24 pm
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-211: Floors was a great player. It’s dissapointing that he hasn’t gotten the opportunity to play more at a top level.
22 Nov 2011, 17:25 pm
See Mickey Arthur is the new Australian Cricket coach. First time ever Oz appoint a foreign Coach.
Now come on Saru let us do the same and appoint Mitchell our rugby coach? If Oz can appoint a foreign coach for the cricket we can do it for our rugby.
22 Nov 2011, 17:29 pm
@Robzim(Robzim)-209: “vendetta”? bwahahahaha i’m not from the western cape so i’m immune to bluster unlike say……………..yourself
if you read back at all my comments re koster, i have NEVER ran the player down, i have always pointed out the folly of those who were on a hype frenzy in 2007, 2008, 2009.
one minute nick koster was playing currie cup and the next being picked for the barbarians – like WTF?
22 Nov 2011, 17:30 pm
@Puma(Puma)-213: viva and amen Puma
22 Nov 2011, 17:31 pm
Koster will come good.
Watch .
22 Nov 2011, 17:35 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-144: my dream car…
22 Nov 2011, 17:38 pm
oh hell…news 24…mallet wont take up coaching job till june 2012….seems to rule him out of Bok contention…
22 Nov 2011, 17:39 pm
I must say, as an aside, that it’s a dark day for South Africa today.
RIP democracy.
22 Nov 2011, 17:42 pm
@grant10(grant10)-215: Honestly if Oz can appoint a foreign coach for their cricket we can do the same for our rugby.
Cricket is their number one sport there. For them to appoint a foreign coach for their cricket it says volumes about how they want to climb to the top again.
We should be brave and do the same with our rugby and make Mitchell a offer he can’t refuse.
Also well done to Arthur on becoming their first ever foreign coach. A saffa to boot.
With Arther as our cricket coach end of 2008 in Oz we won a test series there. The first country to do so since the mighty WI done it in the early 90′s. Now of course England have done so but we were the first for so many years.
With Mitchell reckon we will be number one by next year with our Boks and probably for years. Saru should take notice of how brave Oz are and go for the best.
22 Nov 2011, 17:45 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-219: wore my black shirt today.
Felt so sad…..so many gave up so much ….only to have democracy undermined in this most callous way.
Madiba must be a sad man.
22 Nov 2011, 17:45 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-214:
The publicity has done him no favours but he had some bad luck too – He showed determination to overcome a near career ending knee injury and had to wait till the 2011 cc season before he could get any decent gametime- I think he got MoM once or twice during the cc season and as I pointed out he also was awarded for his good play by becoming WP’s forward of the season.
I think it is a tradition that they pick an uncapped and sometimes relatively unknown playwer to play for the Baa baas so it was not that far-fetched that he got the opportunity. Have they not selected a rugby- league player who hardly ever played Union to play against the Aussies this weekend too?
22 Nov 2011, 17:46 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-219: Actually it is scary. Feels like we have plummeted back into the dreadful past.
22 Nov 2011, 17:46 pm
@grant10(grant10)-218: June 2012 is co-incidently the first time that the Springboks will play in 2012.
All smoke and mirrors until the announcement is made
22 Nov 2011, 17:47 pm
@grant10(grant10)-221: Yes. Quite depressed to be honest.
Let’s hope that the inevitable concourt challenge is successful.
22 Nov 2011, 17:47 pm
@Puma(Puma)-220: Yes …I agree….it is about the best man for the job….not the nationality.
I bumped into Gary Kirsten today in a restaurant in Claremont today….I was so gutted I could not bring myself to say hello…..
22 Nov 2011, 17:47 pm
@grant10(grant10)-221: It is not good news at all Grant. Like taking a giant step backwards into our terrible past.
22 Nov 2011, 17:48 pm
@Puma(Puma)-223: It is hey?
A failure of democracy of the highest order.
22 Nov 2011, 17:50 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-224: thought crossed my mind…..but I am sure Boks Saru would want a more immidiate type appointment….Rumours that Poms will appoint a caretaker coach till after 6 nations and then mallet will take pom job thereafter….
but as you rightly say….all smokes and mirrors…..AC and Rassie still favorites imo…sadly
22 Nov 2011, 17:51 pm
@grant10(grant10)-229: Ja. Unfortunately.
22 Nov 2011, 17:52 pm
cheers gents…..gym for me….time to work off the frustrations of a dying democracy…..
sad sad farken sad….
22 Nov 2011, 17:53 pm
last thing.
read that Adi on way home to Western Cape
Wonder if Rassie would be interested?
outta here
22 Nov 2011, 17:56 pm
@grant10(grant10)-226: I think he will do fine though. This was his first series as coach.
Just not sure why we never had any warm up games before the Oz toured here? Should have organised a short tour to Zim or them come here and play 2 tests against them to get us ready.
If only Steyn caught Cummins. Seemed a bit high, but think he could have caught it. If he had I feel he would have bowled out the last wicket too.
I have to say that is why I love test cricket. One never knows just how it will turn out. Every hour something changes.
Still hated losing to Oz. Actually Oz deserved that Grant. Remember they lost a whole morning to rain. They probably would have won a lot earlier had there been no rain.
Just don’t get this series tour. 2 tests and 3 odi’s? Should never play that again. We had a brilliant schedule against them before home and way. 3 tests and 5 odi’s with two 20/20 games. Whoever accepted us to play 2 tests were not thinking. Should always be 3 or 5.
Anyhow we may get them back in Oz next year. Then again Arthur will be their coach by then.
We go over in October let us hope it is a proper tour of 3 tests with 5 odi’s.
22 Nov 2011, 18:00 pm
@grant10(grant10)-232: Feel terrible for Adi really. He was so loyal to the Sharks.
22 Nov 2011, 18:01 pm
As somebody tweeted the ghosts of Verwoerd, Vorster, P.W. Botha, Jimmy Kruger, Eschel Rhoodie etc. are all laughing long and loud tonight
22 Nov 2011, 18:01 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-228: Sure is and it makes me worry really.
Think we will be seeing even more leaving our beautiful country.
22 Nov 2011, 18:03 pm
@Robzim(Robzim)-235: Honestly it is a bloody mess I think Rob.
We will lose even more that will emigrate because of this.
Many of us have lived this road before really don’t want to again. Like going back to our dreadful past.
22 Nov 2011, 18:05 pm
@Puma(Puma)-233:
Mickey was arguably the best coach we ever had- and he is now much more experienced so i have no doubt that he will do a great job with Australia. Test cricket rules for sure- this series was nothing short of amazing, a draw was probably a fair call as no team really deserved to have lost.
22 Nov 2011, 18:22 pm
@Robzim(Robzim)-238: Well I say well done to Oz to go for the best for the cricket. They will climb back up for sure with Arthur there. This is their first ever foreign cricket coach.
You know how much cricket means to the Australians. So this was a massive surprise to me that that selected a foreign coach. They want to be the best again and went with the best. Good on them.
So if they can do it (appoint a foreigh coach) so can we here in South Africa and select Mitchell for our Bok Coach.
I enjoy cricket tests immensely Rob. That last test was superb. I know we lost and I really hate losing to Aus in the cricket. But they deserved it and it was a bloody marvelous test. Just wish we had a 3rd test still to play. Two tests is just not right really.
22 Nov 2011, 18:23 pm
@Puma(Puma)-239: that = they
22 Nov 2011, 18:23 pm
shhhhhhh! Can you guys hear that???
That is the sound of foreign capital leaving our shores…..
22 Nov 2011, 18:24 pm
@Puma(Puma)-239: sorry another typo
foreigh = foreign
22 Nov 2011, 18:26 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-241: My heart just sinks to read that. It will happen.
What a big mess up.
22 Nov 2011, 18:26 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-228:
Just another day at the office for the thieves and sexual incontients who run this country.
22 Nov 2011, 18:30 pm
What’s incontients
22 Nov 2011, 18:33 pm
WP Rugby doesn’t need players of calibre, they need administrators of good calibre.
A winning culture cannot be bought or sold off (that is cattle trading) – it is created.
22 Nov 2011, 18:45 pm
@Dawn(Dawn)-245:
People who can’t keep their ntondos zipped.
22 Nov 2011, 18:54 pm
22 Nov 2011, 19:00 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-241:
What are you okes on about????
Remember I am in deep dark Spain, where we have a new government (thank God), where there is sooooo much rain that the 3 national TV stations have disappeared off the radar and I havent a farking clue as to what is going down in SA
Enlighten me..
22 Nov 2011, 19:07 pm
Protection of information bill passed in parliament
Muzzling media
22 Nov 2011, 19:16 pm
@Dawn(Dawn)-250:
Its being coming for a while now….. Not good news
Thats the one thing I realised about democracy with the Spanish elections on Sunday. With the masses having the fortunate ability to think for themselves and the subsequent people power to vote out a government that was full of corruption and were leading the country into oblivion
Simple… you stuff up…. boom, bang, biff…. you dont rule anymore
The power of the the masses… It can be done!!
22 Nov 2011, 19:30 pm
@Dawn(Dawn)-250:
A third World Rhetorics at best
Most can’t even read properly anyway, and in any case they could have done whatever they wanted since 1994 anyway, so what’s the fuss?
“If you had no expectations whatsoever, you shouldn’t be disappointed now”
22 Nov 2011, 19:49 pm
@Bod(bod)-249: Yikes that’s scary. A new government that took out three TV stations with driving rain? Looks like our secrecy bill is small change.
22 Nov 2011, 19:59 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-253:
You gotta love this place…. I do!
Strews nyannies… the north easter kicks in over the Pyrenees, the rain and cold comes in in buckets and your primary 3 national TV stations give up the ghost “No hay sena”…. no signal.
Yet click over to the soccer and porn stations… and they are in full cry!
22 Nov 2011, 20:10 pm
You there peranently?
22 Nov 2011, 20:12 pm
Sorry permanently
22 Nov 2011, 20:29 pm
Wazzup hondo
Trust you to come up with that
22 Nov 2011, 20:40 pm
@Bod(bod)-254: Like you had any desire to watch anything other than soccer and porn.
@Dawn(Dawn)-256: Sounds like chronic depression.
22 Nov 2011, 20:57 pm
Really a bad day fo SA.
Not much hope that sanity will prevail and we can just as well accept that the bill be finally approved next year without significant, if any, changes.
The good news of the day is that Sting will be play Grand West this coming March.
“Protest is futile,
Nothing seems to get through
What’s to become of our world,
Who knows what to do
Driven to tears
Driven to tears”
22 Nov 2011, 21:16 pm
Does anyone know the facts of this ‘bill’ and what has been passed today?
Every country has state security measures in place for good reason, is (and how) is this one different?
22 Nov 2011, 21:23 pm
@Dawn(Dawn)-255:
Nope…. just on a bit of a travelling experience
Will be back in CT whenever (no plans…. no commitments. I still have my house/car/dog/cats and kids in the ‘Mead… I also miss the Portuguese Embassy too much!!
22 Nov 2011, 21:31 pm
We have to get a handle on this bill.
If it’s just state secrets, then nothing new.
If it covers corruption then cry the fecking beloved country.
22 Nov 2011, 21:32 pm
@Robzim(Robzim)-259: This is just as apt. Worth a read to the end.
“In the searchlights
You could see us as you circled round
Down below us you were screaming
I could hear the sound
I could see your arms reaching up to me
Like a demon, I could feel the madness
Running through the crowd
We were freedom
From the moment that we hit the ground
And the wild man, he laid the thunder down.
Do you remember me, like I remember you
In a sea of hands you came shining through
In the mist of time I can see it now
All my life I will remember this (under a raging moon)
For this moment I was born for it (under a raging moon)
Under a raging moon, we were flying there
Under a raging moon, we saw Zion there
It ended all too soon, under a raging moon
We were out there
When they handed us the rebel’s crown
All the headlines
All they tried to do was tear us down
But the wild man, he didn’t fool around
Do you remember me, cause I remember you
Yeah you won my love, when the dream came true
When my blood ran high, I can hear it now
All my life I will remember it (under a raging moon)
For this moment I was born for it (under a raging moon)
Under a raging moon, we were flying boy
Under a raging moon, it’s worth dying for
It ended all too soon, under a raging moon
Taking me back to better times
We never read the danger signs
Why are the young, why are the young so blind?”
Roger Daltrey
22 Nov 2011, 21:36 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-258: mm….mm
The soccer is bad, but the porn even worse.
Los hombres espanol have this kinda thang going…. they love an eight on one scenario
22 Nov 2011, 21:40 pm
What are state secrets, our govt officials thieving, believe me that will become a state secret, write about it and heyfuckingpresto 25 years for you bud,write about the blue light tossers and how many body guards he had and how they abused you…..state secret and heyfuckingpresto 25 years for you bud.
This is a travesty…………..people need to look at the bigger picture and the future.
22 Nov 2011, 21:41 pm
60.mshiniwami:
22 Nov 2011, 11:26 am @Taahirah(Taahirah)-58: Yep….The Sharks procurement up to sh*t once again He has not been resigned to a new contract-out in the cold.Leaving now likely to take up an overseas contract.He had hoped to finish career with Sharks. Sharks keeping Marius Joubert…WHO IS OLDER than Adi & mediocre this past season.Adi still has plenty value especially of the bench & utility midfielder. loyal Sharks servant has Adi Jacobs for the past 8 or so years…So much for loyalty I guess.Thats why I dont blames likes of Lionel Mapoe-go to the highest bidder as unions are full of sh*t.
How do Plumtree/Straeuli substantiate keeping Joubert and letting Adi go? Plumtree has curtailed Adi’s career at the Sharks in last 2 yrs or so. Adi should have NEVER played behind Terblanche for the 13 jersey at ANY point,neither should Joubert usurped him. This is a fckin joke.
61.Tacitus:
22 Nov 2011, 11:30 am @mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-60: Strange goings on down in Durban. Really don’t understand what’s happened to their squad. If you look at the regression from the heady days of 2007 – when they lost the S14 final by 1 point – to today’s geriatric backline, it really does boggle the mind. Can anyone doubt that they will be decent but not outstanding in next year’s S15? Probably a contender for topping the SA log, but nowhere near a contender for the overall trophy. Is that satisfactory to Sharks fans?
62.mshiniwami:
22 Nov 2011, 11:37 am @Tacitus(Deucalion)-61: Its a joke Tac.A complete joke. Plumtree,Straeuli,Hugh Reece Edwards managed to tear apart what **** Muir built after taking over shambles from Putt. Whatever people may say about **** he did a great job at the Sharks. Natal cronies & vested interests-buddy buddy system. After Campo then **** leaving it been downhill since. Big pity is that there is plenty quality in Beast,Bismark,Jannie,Deysel,Alberts,Daniel,Kankoski,Lambie,Mvovo,Ndungane add youngsters: Cooper,Mthembu,Jafta,Stander,H.Williams,Jordaan,Lindeque,Gouws,Coetzee etc Enough there to have very good team to achieve great things,those Boks are all in mid 20?s and younger so have at least 3-4 seasons at peak. But front office F*CKIN IT ALL UP.
3 very good posts. We can all see it. But the Sharks management can’t.
22 Nov 2011, 21:44 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-260: @Dawn(Dawn)-262: The key here is two things:
Other countries who have a bill like this, (Canada for example) have a defense clause which can be raised by someone who is charged with posessing or publishing “secret” info, that it is “in the public interest” that the information is brought to light.
This defense clause does not apply here, so being in posession of a document that has been classified secret could get you 25 years,
Now you may ask yourself what’s the problem? The bill does refer to documents of national security after all.
Well consider the Arms deal. Under these definitions the contents and documents pertaining to all matters, contracts etc could easily be declared Top Secret and we would never know what had happened as journos who had been given the info would not be allowed to publish it. Access would simply be denied and so we would have no idea of any of the content.
Major corruption can therefore be swept under the rug.
The bill in concept is not all bad, BUT it needs the appropriate ‘watchdog” provisions in it in order to prevent it being used to cover up corrupt practices.
Under the current version of the Bill the Government would have to basically police themselves. Which is a recipe for disaster.
PS we did have a Secrecy Bill, (which was repealed by this Bill), which was in my opinion pretty adequate in adressing the state secrecy issues.
22 Nov 2011, 21:44 pm
@Bod(bod)-251: SA needs a viable *dare I say it* black opposition party.
Hell would freeze over first before some of the masses vote for the DA.
Pity, as there’s no accountability and oversight as a result… and the pigs just get fatter at the gravy trough.
Living in the UK has been a real education in seeing how a real democracy works. One party f*cks up, the other gets voted in. Simple.
22 Nov 2011, 21:45 pm
@Treehugger(Treehugger)-265: Spot on hugsy. I see you enjoyed the photo i posted
22 Nov 2011, 21:50 pm
@Treehugger(Treehugger)-265: PS I sent you a message on FB. Check it out
22 Nov 2011, 21:54 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-260:
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-267:
I am no legal eagle but to me it seems as if Its basically about Government who is saying that the new bill is aimed at threats by “foreign spies,” and not at covering up of corruption. But we are obviously skeptical as it appears as if it will make the life of any whistleblowers very difficult- it seems as if it will force them that if they come into possession of any documents or “evidence” re issues of state corruption or state “secrets” they must immediately turn it over to the police or security services otherwise they will be locked up. Presumably, that would mean that journalists who simply heard something from a source or received documents would be subject to imprisonment. The public-interest defense—the notion that the public’s right to know can outweigh the state’s need for secrecy—doesn’t seem to exist in the new bill.
To me it seems wrong- it will be much easier to “cover up” and to protect corrupt officials and politicians.
22 Nov 2011, 21:56 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-270:
Did you see the post that someone posted somewhere on this site re Cliffie and Skattie Etsebeth and the line- out calls?
22 Nov 2011, 21:57 pm
this Bill is the thin edge of the wedge….it is an affront to our hard fought for democracy.
How often in life the victim becomes the perpetrator.
I tell you now every single Saffa should be deeply offended by this Bill…..especially those who fought so hard for democracy…….every last one of us must do everything we can to ensure that this Bill is never signed into law….it sucks big time….it is an attack on our very fabric and basic freedom…..
I try and not talk politics here…..but let me tell you this is the most serious matter since 1994…..this is farken huge trouble.
22 Nov 2011, 21:58 pm
@Robzim(Robzim)-272: it was farken funny!
22 Nov 2011, 22:00 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-267: The bill has a provision whereby in the instance that a journalist is provided with a classified document, and they’d like to publish a story about they’ve 14 days to make an application to government to get the document released, in the event that the government declines the application, journalists can make an application to the courts. There’s also a provision that permits journalists or other to go directly to the courts to lodge an urgent application for release of a classified document without making an application to government first. Furthermore, the act provides for the whistleblowers protection, which is already written into law in the form of the whistleblowers act. The bill specifically states that in the event of maladministration I.e. Corruption, misuse of government powers etc etc., these acts will not be interpreted as classified information.
22 Nov 2011, 22:00 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-263:
That is great stuff.
Where did you get it from, I am fairly familiar with the Who and Townsened’s material but do not know this one from Daltrey?
22 Nov 2011, 22:04 pm
@grant10(grant10)-274:
Yes, lol, and the ********** in his post was obviously not Pathagoras (the UCT call) but an afrikaans word that also starts with a P and ends with a S
22 Nov 2011, 22:08 pm
@Robzim(Robzim)-277:
All those fancy codes means nothing- they only throw to the “ph. oos met die rooi baard” anyway
22 Nov 2011, 22:10 pm
So that’s basically what I said, just longer version.
22 Nov 2011, 22:18 pm
@Dawn(Dawn)-279: Not really, I suppose I looked at the processes of recourse, and equally, that I support the bill and find it as a clear progression in our democracy.
22 Nov 2011, 22:18 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-275: and who pays the legal fees? Frankly, having to make Court or other applications in the instance of breaking news is ludicrous.
22 Nov 2011, 22:29 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-281: the contention of legal fees cannot be the basis of your unsupportive stance of the bill. The bill speaks to the protection of national security information and that’s a good thing.
22 Nov 2011, 22:30 pm
@Robzim(Robzim)-276: It;s a solo release. Google the youtube vid, it’s worthwhile. It’s obviously got a reference to Kieth Moon, but was actually co-written by John Parr, who also wrote (and performed the no 1 hit “Man in Motion” (St Elmo’s Fire)
@Robzim(Robzim)-272: Yes i actually laughed out loud at that! I can just imagine!!
22 Nov 2011, 22:32 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-282: you’re a hardcore ANC man, so I doubt discussing this topic with you is going to be anything other than a complete waste of time.
22 Nov 2011, 22:35 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-281: Besides, south africa is a democracy and is underpinned by a capitalist system if you want to express your perspective within a formal legal environment, you have to pay!
22 Nov 2011, 22:35 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-275: But that in itself is only half the problem. It’s that it is classified in the first place (as in the arms deal example above) so you wouldn;t know about it.
It also does not protect the whistleblower so it would not be leaked in this instance.
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-280: It’s a clear REGRESSION is what it is.
Every political anyalyst, black, white Asian and coloured has come out in vehement criticism of the Bill. Find me someone other than the ANC who is respected in their field who thinks it’s a good idea.
22 Nov 2011, 22:36 pm
So the act only applies to classified state secrets and even for that you have to go to court.
Everytging else is all ok.
22 Nov 2011, 22:38 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-269: not as elequent as you though
had a similar photo on mine just half blacked out
.
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-270:WOW
22 Nov 2011, 22:39 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-283:
Cool , i will have a look- Moon the loon was one of the best ever (if not the best)- i have a DVD of the Who playing in the 60′s with Keith having injected himself with horse tranquiliser playing slower and slower till he passes out-
Pete Townsend then calmly asked whether anyone in the audience can play the drums and they eventually picked someone to “replace” keith- the bloke was hardly adequite but somehow they managed to finish the set.
22 Nov 2011, 22:46 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-284: It’s unfortunate that you are of that opinion as I believe a vibrant democracy must be informed by citizens who actually read the bills put forward by the legislative house and don’t merely rely on newspaper articles.
22 Nov 2011, 22:48 pm
@Dawn(Dawn)-287: Yes
22 Nov 2011, 22:52 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-286: the arms deal in of itself was not a secret, as there were public government tenders, the issue came in owing to maladministration therefore illegal practices by individuals, and the bill speaks directly to this! Once again this bill is very progress and required in a democratic country. There’s no nation state on earth that wants sensitive security information to be in the public domain, hence the demise of wikileaks!
22 Nov 2011, 23:02 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-290: Dont think we have a vibrant democracy, just a party voted in by the mostly uninformed and uneducated masses, frankly the anc can do anything and still get voted in, so not so much of the vibrant, so every other political party member today didnt know what they were doing by voting against this bill, and all the experts dont know what they are talking about, and only the anc know whats what in the zoo, yet they were told every one will show for todays vote and all will vote for this bill, vibrant democracy.
22 Nov 2011, 23:02 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-292: I have no issue with the nescessity of protecting genuine state secrets. The issue here is the mechanism used to do it and the checks and balances to protect you and I from it’s abuse.
And in it’s current form it’s not adequate. As said as much above.
I’ve read the Bill from start to finish by the way. it’s linked into what i do for a living.
22 Nov 2011, 23:05 pm
@Robzim(Robzim)-289: Yes he was a character! Sounds like quite a show!
Townsend was a genius in my opinion. Wrote some amazing stuff and could play a bit too
22 Nov 2011, 23:12 pm
Oh and Old Tutu and Nelson Mandela being against this bill makes them what ?
No mpundulu, You have lost credibility by saying what you did, strange how every one else has a different opinion of this bill.
22 Nov 2011, 23:16 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-268:
That is the greatest tragedy of what is SA…. the uneducated masses through no fault of their own.
I long for the day when the educated masses will will be able to get rid of this bunch of effing idiots with one quick tick of a vote ballot.
It will happen… sooner than later
22 Nov 2011, 23:27 pm
Despite the incessant, month-long and continuing “Bitchin’ in the Kitchen ” mentality of the many derelicts(as in soocial misfits) and the depraved(as in corrupt and social perverts) I simply cannot pass this opportunity up for all the tea in China.
The ultimate height of hypocrisy in S.A. is that instant when former franchised make noises about ” RIP democracy ” or further, talk about ” an affront to our hard fought for democracy “.
What democracy or what fight for it are we talking about by former franchised?
Where were your/their, and/or your/their forebears, even pipsqueak noises between 19′voertsek’ and 1993/4 when anything but “democracy” made them all so very happy, simply because you/they benefitted so well from the lack of said “democracy”?
Do you/they even now care to remember that tens of thousands were just thrown into prisons anytime, any day of any year just because they protested some social aspect that grossly and negatively affected their lives?
Look at the virtual millions that are on the streets protesting presently. They are thrown into jails with the help of such odious laws as the 90 and 180 days Detention clauses of those laws?
Some of you, in all probability, played a role in rounding up those unfortunate innocents and now you moan like ruptured pigs.
Your deliberate reading of any present situation, unknown to you,obviously, reveal your lack of any understanding of even the prevailing S.African political situation.
How very much does the ‘african NATIONAL congress’ differ from your former ‘NATIONAList party’ except but in a degree of personal hue in the skin of all?
It is not as if the one represents a totally different economic system relative to the other. Hence little difference in the level of corruption then and now, except that there are many more black fingers to be poked into the pieces of the pie.
Quite amazing and stunning how PERSPECTIVE can be so easily discarded.
22 Nov 2011, 23:31 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-290: you are indeed deluded if you honestly believe SA has “a vibrant democracy”.
More like a one party state. And we all know that’s as healthy as a lifetime smoker with Emphysema.
22 Nov 2011, 23:32 pm
@Treehugger(Treehugger)-293: The bill is not a secret it’s out in the public domain to be read, discussed, and negotiated. Opposition are fully aware of it and actually agree with most tenets of the bill. When the majority of people don’t agree with your political perspective it does not necessitate that they are ill-informed and ignorant and you are the sole beacon of light! Hoisting one’s own petard is one thing but your suggestion is sheer self adulation, and you must stop it!
22 Nov 2011, 23:32 pm
The big racist vervet mon.key of a fool is back in town.
22 Nov 2011, 23:33 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-294: Which clause would you like changed or inserted?
22 Nov 2011, 23:35 pm
@Treehugger(Treehugger)-296: Which aspect of the bill do tutu and Mandela have issue with?
22 Nov 2011, 23:36 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-300: “…but your suggestion is sheer self adulation, and you must stop it!”
That’s the typical intolerant attitude shown by your ANC comrades…
You seek to stamp out the dissenting voice, to douse the flame of justice.
But our Constitutional Court, Moegoe or no Moegoe, will sort you out.
22 Nov 2011, 23:38 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-299: A vibrant democracy is established by it’s citizenry, how is the south African democracy not vibrant?
22 Nov 2011, 23:40 pm
2-2 – Manure-Benfica
Ain’t it ihoot to discover all the greatest exponents of whats best for Sa all chucking their tuppence worth from some far off haven of democratic perfection sucking off some other foreign state benefit or other
22 Nov 2011, 23:42 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-304: There’s no issue with there being dissension towards the ruling party or any minority party, however, to denigrate the majority when you are part of the clear minority and merely castigate them with easy descriptions of ill-informed, ignorant, no ability to grasp the subject matter is simplifying the situation greatly, and quite mischievious.
22 Nov 2011, 23:43 pm
Pink-arsed and -faced Macaque/Makak just deal with the facts and the ideas.
Your emotionalism shows exposes your immaturity hanging out like your petticoat.
22 Nov 2011, 23:44 pm
shows/exposes
22 Nov 2011, 23:53 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-303: bud, you are a bit of aprick, Why would every other politician and political party be against this bill, all these political analysts and experts, and the next time i have tea or a gin and tonic with either Tutu or Nelson i will ask which specific aspect of the bill they have a problem with
Try thinking for your self, you dont have to tow the party line, as for me stopping it !! WTF get real bud.
So lets see you are an All Black supporting banker anc politician stooge, tsk tsk tsk.
I think thats called a know it all.
22 Nov 2011, 23:59 pm
Schmuckaluck talking kuk from out the pinkarse backsides he hides and coolycreeps up inside all his coconut life
23 Nov 2011, 00:01 am
@Treehugger(Treehugger)-310: Instead of telling me what I am rather disprove what I’ve said. You were clearly racist in your retort and then you invoked tutu and Mandela but you don’t know why, then because of that I’m supposed to agree with your vacuous statement.
Tree hugger, the bill is good, if you’ve an enormous issue with it, exercise your constitutional right and tell us what it is! Provide detail to your problem with the bill and then when you wear black tshirt you’ll at least be comforted with the idea that you know why.
23 Nov 2011, 00:03 am
@Treehugger(Treehugger)-310: You also seem to imagine that for a bill to be good every political party must be in agreement, you need to go out more.
23 Nov 2011, 00:11 am
so Mpundlu you defending this bill you better point out whats so good about it when every single daily news publication has come out in utter dismay and shock at its passing referring to this day as Blak Tuesday in our fledgling democracy’s history
23 Nov 2011, 00:15 am
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-314: I have pointed to it’s benefits after reading the bill, what do you believe to be bad about it?
23 Nov 2011, 00:24 am
I don’t know much about its content nor its implications, why would every free speech proponent declare it am utter shame and direct opposition to freedom of speech and smack to the face of the democratic principles the Anc was founded on?
23 Nov 2011, 00:25 am
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-312: RACIST RACIST….LOLOLOLOL….now that was stupid playing the race card
The bill is good because one party says it is lolol so all the others know stuff all then.
Lets see do i believe political analysts and politicians who’s opinions is respect, or that of this single party that are bulldozing it through.
Well enough from this vacuous divine gorgeous blond bimbo. Sleep tight and hope one day the brain washing wears off.
23 Nov 2011, 00:27 am
mpundulu uxakile!!!!!!!!!
I’m laughing @ the FB staus of a journalist friend of mine, she says with her used to toyi-toying in the ’80s today while she marched on Plein Str she kept looking around for tear gas & caspirs to no avail & she’s decided that picketting in a democracy is boring…lol…and the people who kept asking her to translate the meanings of the songs made it even worse
mpundulu, stop using logical arguments here when people are comfortable labelling & insulting you! Can’t you see people are affronted by this Bill?
Having not read the Bill & just gleaning of your earlier analysis, this Bill is going to pose some serious tests for our judiciary in terms of independence when as yyou said people have to lodge applications to de-classify documents.
23 Nov 2011, 00:28 am
Wham! Out comes the usual race card!
What other cards lie hidden up that gravy-stained sleeve?
23 Nov 2011, 00:28 am
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-316: It’s important that you read the bill for yourself and form your own opinions, never allow other people do that for you.
23 Nov 2011, 00:30 am
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-315: Is there nothing bad about this bill?
Why the need for the bill? Was there no provision before this bill to keep sensitive security information out of the public domain?
You say you have looked at the “processes of recourse”. What are they?
What checks and balances are in place?
23 Nov 2011, 00:31 am
@Treehugger(Treehugger)-317: Maybe, just a novel idea, read the bill then we talk.
23 Nov 2011, 00:34 am
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-321: Okay, read your 275. Interesting. Seems reasonable.
Why the big song and dance then?
23 Nov 2011, 00:34 am
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-321: the government is meant to hold itself to account…
Haha.
23 Nov 2011, 00:34 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-318: It’s critically important to the development of our democracy that the courts are tested perennially, this is what democracy is about, expressing your choice or view and allowing the courts to decide on the balance of convenience.
23 Nov 2011, 00:40 am
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-324: I am not sure this bill is as bad as the hoo ha makes it out to be. I have tried to read many an article online and no journo has given an explicit explanation of why it is so bad other than resorting to panic button jingo journalism.
I for one am very suspect of Journos when they get into a feral piranha like feeding frenzy. There is more than one side to this story…
23 Nov 2011, 00:41 am
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-323:
Because it is the All Blacks who have Bill, simply.
23 Nov 2011, 00:41 am
Headings on News24:
“Mandela’s Office Slams Info Bill”
“It’s not over, Zille warns Info Bill”
“Info Bill has Constitutional Implications”
“We will Fight Info Bill: Mazibuko”
“Info Bill Approval Condemned”
One must question the motives of those who blindly follow the mothership on this proposed Act…
23 Nov 2011, 00:42 am
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-321: Laws in any democratic country are progressive, they keep evolving with the development of its society, they are tabled in a legislative governmental body and are discussed, caucused, and either enacted or not, this bill has gone through the first government body, and it’s due to be debated by the ncop, thereafter, it can be taken to the presidency for ratification and perhaps opposed in the constitutional court. This is SA’s democratic system, if there’s such material opposition to the bill by society effect the use of the courts to oppose the bill.
The checks and balances of this bill is one’s recourse to the courts, if someone feels aggrieved they have the rule of law as evident recourse like in any democratic country.
23 Nov 2011, 00:43 am
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-326: Having said that I am amazed that the SA Govt had inadequate provision for keeping sensitive state secret information out of the public domain before this bill. Why now?
23 Nov 2011, 00:43 am
How else does one explain the opponents of Bill wore All Black today?
23 Nov 2011, 00:45 am
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-323: Unfortunately most south africans who are protesting the bill believe it to be of the script as the initial bill that government tried to table in parliament. It’s important to read the actual bill and then formulate an opinion.
23 Nov 2011, 00:45 am
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-329: Thats a High School Democracy and Constitutional Rights lesson… That is not what I was asking. I understand all that.
I was asking for specifics related to the bill….
Or is this going to be as hard as trying to define “Transformation”….?
23 Nov 2011, 00:47 am
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-324: You’ve not provided any detail just imagined jocular utterances, this is the real issue with discourse in this country, little definitive understanding.
23 Nov 2011, 00:47 am
Big Bold headings across the front pages of nearly every independent news publication calling the day of implementation of this bill as Black Tuesday, and the defenders of those in power calling this -good- something don’t add up in the state of Denmark, its either good or its bad so either your blind loyalty is shrouding your ability to think straight or else somebody is lying profusely. Wonder who that could be-
23 Nov 2011, 00:49 am
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-333: Have you read the bill?
23 Nov 2011, 00:49 am
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-332: Yes, that is true. But the Govt represents the people, yes? It would be helpful if the representatives of the people explain this bill and its necessity or else most people will either be ignorant or will have to glean information or misinformation from the Newspapers who seem to be screaming blue murder from the rooftops.
23 Nov 2011, 00:53 am
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-335: Why don’t you read the bill and determine who?
23 Nov 2011, 00:54 am
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-336: No I haven’t. I will just ask SA Parliament to send me one by post or email tomorrow. In the meantime I have tried to glean as much information as I can from various online media sources – but nothing concrete and explicit other than panic button journo emotionalism. Thus my questions to you since you state you have (read it) and you seem to have a decent knowledge and understanding of said Bill.
23 Nov 2011, 00:55 am
don’t worry about trying to define me HG, i’m omnipresent
23 Nov 2011, 00:56 am
” Mbalula: Too early to scrap quotas
November 22 2011 at 07:46pm
It was too early to scrap quotas in South African sport, Sports Minister Fikile Mbalula said on Tuesday.
On the final day of the National Sport and Recreation Indaba in Midrand, during discussions on transformation in the plenary, it was decided that the quota system could not be scrapped while the transformation charter and the transformation scorecard would be adopted into the Nation Sports Plan.
During the final session of the transformation commission, where the resolutions were to be passed, there was widespread division on whether the system should be scrapped or reinstated.
“The indaba acknowledged the challenges and limitations with regard to the implementation of the quota system in its current form and the negative effects of this system in deepening racial polarisation,” Mbalula said.
“To this end, the indaba observed the unfortunate and painful stigma imposed on young black athletes and players as a result of the application of this archaic system.”
With the rigorous debate surrounding this contentious issue, it was decided that the quota system would not be scrapped, and the merit system would also not be undermined.
“However, a strong case has been made for the uninterrupted continuation of the quota system through the direct selection of black players into national codes, using the adopted scorecards contained in the transformation charter,” Mbalula said.
“You will still have that particular programme (quota system), but at the same time that programme will be enhanced by a visible and clear transformation charter.
“Federations and everybody else will be held accountable in terms of what we seek to achieve as a nation about integration, equity and accessibility in terms of different sporting codes.”
Rugby in particular came under fire, with SA Rugby Union (Saru) president Oregan Hoskins defending his federation.
Hoskins admitted the sport had not progressed as much as it could have in terms of transformation, but he invited more black people to get involved in rugby.
“It will not help to talk only in this forum. I also experienced the worst form of apartheid and the fact of the matter is that I am democratically elected (as Saru president),” Hoskins said.
“So I urge my comrades with the expertise to make yourselves available to the rugby unions and Saru to have a say.
“To effect change in rugby we have to start in the boardroom because, as you know, most of my brothers in rugby are white.”
Hoskins said he would seek clarity from Mbalula and the Sports Ministry as to what had been decided regarding quotas.
“We have heard the decision and that is contrary to what the Minister had said earlier – that quotas had been done away with,” Hoskins said.
“The indaba has decided that quotas should not be done away with, so we will meet as SA rugby to discuss the effect of what has happened here.” – Sapa
Please note, the man of BURST CONDOM fame has spoken with infinite wisdom!
23 Nov 2011, 00:58 am
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-337: Agreed, the government must communicate their intended policy positions through the media outlets. They’ve gone on to radio and tv to sensitize the people to the issues of the bill and provided detail to the bill itself. Furthermore, there is the written bill that can be read by anyone in the country or read to if necessary. The state is merely providing for a clear legal channel to control state sensitive information.
23 Nov 2011, 00:58 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-340: Yes. Beyond definition. Idol like in conception. Unquestionable. An ever present catch all.
23 Nov 2011, 00:59 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-340:
Were you at Solly T’s funeral in eBhayi on Friday past?
23 Nov 2011, 01:01 am
Our faithful Sports Minister, one time ANCYL president, had this to say about quotas just last week. What a farken hypocrite:
Mbalula: Quotas are exhausted
2011-11-16 22:03Email | Print
Cape Town – Sport quotas are exhausted and have generally been counter-productive, Sport and Recreation Minister Fikile Mbalula said on Wednesday.
Quotas were introduced to achieve the goal of integration but this had yet to be realised, he told a media briefing at Parliament on the ministry’s “transformation perspective document”.
It was necessary for the country to be strong in terms of sport development, and for this a national development plan was required.
“There is slowness [in transformation] because there is no agenda,” he said.
“People complain. They moan about a whole lot of things, about transformation… but everyone needs to be speaking about transformation knowing what is the plan.”
Mbalula said there was an over concentration on three major sporting codes – cricket, soccer and rugby.
What happened in netball, basketball, amateur boxing, or even boxing itself, among others, appeared to be “none of our business”.
“You will be interested to see that in most of the sporting codes in our country, if you do an examination, we’ve achieved maximum transformation there, and through the quota system, among others,” he said.
“And I think transformation must not only be measured in terms of the top three commercial [sport codes]. It must be measured across in terms of sport.”
Sport was about talent, and not a question of electing people to achieve representivity.
The key question was whether there were developmental programmes to nurture players. If blacks did not play rugby, were there programmes for those that did play to be nurtured, guided, and off-loaded into the system so as to ensure representivity?
“So how are we going to achieve that? We are saying this transformation must be narrowed down to a score card… [for] the different federations,” Mbalula said.
“Secondly, there must be a binding transformation charter.”
Without a strong developmental approach, there would not be black players making the national team in the future.
“Because when we go to a World Cup, we’re not going to select a person simply because of colour,” Mabalula said.
“We want the best in the World Cup… nobody wants to be a failure because of ‘I’m here just to add up numbers of black people’. We are there because we want to compete.
“At the end of the day, I don’t want to be a quota player. I want to be there on merit and I want my talent to be recognised.”
There were many black players who wanted to play rugby. The question was why were they not finding their way through in the different competitions.
This was one of the issues the national sport indaba would look into in Midrand next week, Mbalula said.
23 Nov 2011, 01:03 am
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-339: Fair enough, however, there’s a curious problem with south Africans they refuse to read, this is across the co our line, and then they riposte from a point of total ignorance, and this tradition has to stop and people in south Africa have to start reading and thinking for themselves instead of being force-fed like they are in tutorials.
23 Nov 2011, 01:03 am
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-342: Was there no “legal channel to control state sensitive information” before this bill or was it just clarity that was needed? If the latter then surely that would just require a few amendments to a current bill? Bearing in mind I am no legalese expert by any means.
Would this bill be available online to peruse?
23 Nov 2011, 01:03 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-340:
But you have been fired by me as the self-appointed personal secretary as you have simply and regularly posting false information about my whereabouts.
So I do not know so much about your being omnipresent.
23 Nov 2011, 01:07 am
Is it so difficult to grasp tht any and all Bills can and will be used and definitely abused as a situation demands?
How many NAT Bills did all the concerned of today query and protest in All Black?
23 Nov 2011, 01:09 am
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-346: are you suggesting all those in Parliament who oppose the introduction of the bill into statute have failed to (1) read the bill (in its various amended forms), (2) seek the benefit of legal counsel on its constitutionality, and (3) to comprehend it?
Your blind faith to the orders of the mothership is incredible, Comrade!
23 Nov 2011, 01:10 am
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-347: The matter resolved around strengthening the ability of the state to control the flow of state sensitive information to the public via the fourth estate. Ensuring that sensitive information can be protected ably. Clearly the existing provisions were not comprehensive to the extent that the security services were comfortable.
23 Nov 2011, 01:12 am
Ho hum………..still the struggle mentality…………comrades
So the black okes are comrades and the wit okes are brothers………go figure!
No wonder it is consistantly pear shaped
23 Nov 2011, 01:13 am
@ET.(ET.)-348:
posting should read posted
23 Nov 2011, 01:13 am
ET: No, i missed all the details re his funeral. Did you go?
23 Nov 2011, 01:13 am
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-350: No I’m not stating that, I’m saying that those in opposition will have one or several clauses they’d like omitted or augmented or new clauses inserted! At least they’ve read the bill so they can make those objections.
23 Nov 2011, 01:17 am
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-355: sounds like you are changing your tune to me.
Hey ho.
23 Nov 2011, 01:17 am
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-346: Its not just South Africans. Its people everywhere. The media has big influence with the reading public.
Most countries have media outlets where they take on certain political “flavour” and align themselves with a political party. eg UK Guardian – Labour/Lib Telegraph – Tory. USA NY Times – Democrat. Fox/Murdoch – Republican. However at the end of the day all of these outlets are in cahoots with Govt. They suppress and self censor stories of “national security”. They are also propaganda tools owned by establishment figures to shape the news of the day.
SA has a peculiar situation where many media outlets are not in cahoots with Government. They can be quite hostile. There is also and agenda which quite often diverges from Govt. Therefore there is a fundamental mistrust between Govt and Media in SA.
However print and broadcast Media has got to a place of overstating its importance. There is a growing distrust between people and the “News” especially that coming from institutionalised or establishment media. There is also the availability of “better” truth or different POVs on the net via blogs, aggregators etc. And SA is no exception to this worldwide trend.
23 Nov 2011, 01:19 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-354:
I am still in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania so how could I attend?
I leave only on Friday as I never miss Zandile’s( the finest lady from Langa in Philly) Thanksgiving Dinner (on Thursday).
I said to you about a month ago I will be there LATE November, December until early January but you were more concerned about shoving Rajan Moods down my throat.
Thus I clearly was not at Newlands(racist venue) those two days.
23 Nov 2011, 01:20 am
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-351: If that is truly the case then that is good. I just wonder what the agenda is behind the media hue and cry shitstorm.
23 Nov 2011, 01:20 am
this smacks of implementation of closing ranks and drawing the Anc laager wagons closer. It is not that far off those snide cleverly implemented policies that led to the absolute power stronghold applications of the Third Reich in its early manifestations or Verwoerds apartheid propaganda machine – heaven f.ng forbid
23 Nov 2011, 01:22 am
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-356: How?
23 Nov 2011, 01:24 am
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-361: My perspective is not a universal truth but I believe it’s an informed position from what I’ve read, what upholds your position outside of jokes?
23 Nov 2011, 01:26 am
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-357: I can’t argue with that!
23 Nov 2011, 01:27 am
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-360: Yes the hue and cry seems to imply a first step in Zanufication of the SA Govt, but on the other hand there seems to be legitimate reasons for the bill.
23 Nov 2011, 01:29 am
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-359: Papers need to be sold, informing a public of a material change in policy position that is reasonable won’t get tongues wagging on a constantia dinner table!
23 Nov 2011, 01:31 am
mpundulu: with you having read this Bill, does it in any way address or even touch on the issue of State Intelligence services being used to further personal political vendettas like it was alleged before Polokwane where we ended up with protracted wrangling & mudslinging between billy masetla & ronnie kasrils?
Who will monitor the spooks? I ask because from the little i heard from the govt representative on a radio show, he was emphasising the need to protect our state ‘secrets’ from often clandestine foreign interests.
23 Nov 2011, 01:32 am
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-360: You obviously speed read the bill, and now you are coughing up a position. I thought you’d be more scientific in your approach.
23 Nov 2011, 01:36 am
so this is about government protecting the people from the dangers of state security being breached and not about the fat cats in government protecting their fat comfortable mogul power mania asses from public scrutiny and exposure? I beg to differ and offer the latter as the prevailing cover up smoke screen excuse.
23 Nov 2011, 01:36 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-366: The bill does not treat the endeavors of Billy masethla or Ronnie kasrils, however, in that light it does speak to the misuse of government resources and maladministration and that such shall not be protected by the bill and must be fully prosecuted by the courts.
23 Nov 2011, 01:37 am
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-365: Yes, but there is something not quite right with the news agenda, not just in SA but Globally too. And its not just about selling papers.
23 Nov 2011, 01:38 am
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-368: Provide the clauses in the bill that speak to your assertion?
23 Nov 2011, 01:40 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-366: You make a good point there. But “who is monitoring the spooks” is not just an SA worry, it is a global worry.
Surveillance society and Big Brother everywhere. Maybe this Bill is the first step for SA to catch up in this regard.
23 Nov 2011, 01:42 am
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-370: The US has gone through over the years on a major offensive with primarily CNN on how and what news ought to be presented, this has never been a secret the other free to air broadcasting channels in the states are merely partisan to either the democratics or the republicans, the difference is how far.
23 Nov 2011, 01:46 am
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-372: There’s a parliamentary intelligence committee that is supposed to perform the role of oversight, the bill is intended to provide the committee with additional breadth on how to deal with the security services. Until the final ratified version of the bill is presented we’ll have to wait or go to court.
23 Nov 2011, 01:49 am
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-373: Yes. Media as “oversight” is a sham.
Actually I reckon democracy as we think we know it, is a sham. The fabian takeover by technocrats is well under way. Most visible in Europe.
The Arab Spring is another little mechanism for technocrat takeover.
New Farken World Order… Thats what this all is…
23 Nov 2011, 01:50 am
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-374: Interesting.
23 Nov 2011, 01:51 am
The MEDIA the world over acts in the interest of very big money and hardly ever in the real interests of the masses. The merely whip up the emotions of the masses to use them as they clearly desire against certain governments and groupings, not at their bidding.
Look at the names of some billionaires who own some large media outlets in this world:
Maxwell, Murdoch, Turner, Rupert to name just a few.
23 Nov 2011, 01:54 am
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-375: I’ve always said that to trust any government is a fundamental mistake, however, we have to ensure that SA’s political and parastatal institutions grow in strength. The way the world works will only ever be changed in a systemic manner by the custodians of capital no one else.
23 Nov 2011, 01:56 am
@ET.(ET.)-377: It then begs the question who do you deem to be the masses?
23 Nov 2011, 01:56 am
@ET.(ET.)-377:
should read ” They merely whip …”
23 Nov 2011, 01:58 am
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-379:
Simply those who do not own the means of production.
Billionaires own that.
23 Nov 2011, 02:00 am
Bone fide state security protection is one thing, cover up blanket type security censorship giving government carte blanche control and manipulative powers over information and curb on freedom of dissemination of information is something distinctly different. You don’t have to be a boff on the legality of bill implementation to smell a sat, if it smells it smells and no amount of manipulative cover up gonna hide that stink away
23 Nov 2011, 02:03 am
@ET.(ET.)-381:
I should add:
Or work willingly in the interest of those who own the means of production.
And this is where the colonies are the problem as there are masses and then there are pretentious masses.
23 Nov 2011, 02:03 am
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-378: “The way the world works will only ever be changed in a systemic manner by the custodians of capital no one else” – a flawed assumption by the custodians of capital… There comes a time when people say no to any “let them eat cake”… As we well know in Africa or anywhere else.
The behaviour of complex systems is not linear and is not as controllable or predictable as “custodians” will it to be. We are seeing signs of emergence in many spheres of society globally that is contrary…
23 Nov 2011, 02:04 am
@ET.(ET.)-381: There’s nothing wrong in continually acquiring knowledge to continuously brief one’s self on the real state of what’s happening.
23 Nov 2011, 02:04 am
sat – rat
23 Nov 2011, 02:07 am
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-379:
I am sure you do realise that here(on this site) you are mostly dealing with those who are regurgitating the desires of those putting forward the media’s and specific grouping’s(special interest) case.
23 Nov 2011, 02:08 am
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-384: Are we really? The north African affair was a clear US strategy to one say to the world we won’t condone dictatorships even if they are upheld by our government and secondly and most importantly, in chaos we can exact the security of oil production supply. In any revolution, it’s the unwashed who fight the war and the custodians of capital who decide how the war ends.
23 Nov 2011, 02:11 am
@ET.(ET.)-387: I thought i was dealing with those who generally don’t know any better!
23 Nov 2011, 02:14 am
Gents, I’ve nearly finished my smokes and I must not open a third bottle of wine. I’m off to bed chat tomorrow.
23 Nov 2011, 02:17 am
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-385:
I think you are misreading something I wrote and I do not know what it is.
I have no quarrel with you. I point no finger at you.
I simply point out the two real contending forces and everything in between is messy and messes up the situation immensely.
Anything, good or bad, like this Bill can be used well or abused by both those for it or against it.
I make no specific comment on this Bill at all.
23 Nov 2011, 02:18 am
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-320: Get real. Half the politicians who went in to discuss this bill the first time round admitted they had trouble understanding it. And that’s ANC MP’s who voted in favour of it as well!
23 Nov 2011, 02:20 am
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-389:
That too but mainly it is to me simply making mischief on their part largely. There is little effort on their part to seek the truth.
S.A. will for generations still be a society of them and us unfortunately.
We see it in rugby and cricket and every aspect of S.African life.
23 Nov 2011, 02:21 am
billionaire’s often times are those plain enterprizing people who back themselves and their instincts yet are no different from anyone coming from the bosom of the masses, they are people who have utilized their powers of discrimination and enterprise to create wealth, and many times do far more with that acquired wealth than the disillusioned connie who despise then for their ingenuity.
23 Nov 2011, 02:25 am
commie who despises them for their ingenuity, – old nokia is befok
23 Nov 2011, 02:32 am
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-388: Yes the North African affair was and is clear US (and allies) strategy to perturb… This extends north and east around Israel… Security of oil supply is but only one objective… So far so good… But there are these unintended consequences that keep popping up…
The unwashed do fight the war, but every now and again there is a unanticipated groundswell that does overcome the well laid plans of these “custodians”.
Sometimes all it takes is a Hector Pieterson… And often wars never end when they are wanted to…. They also can begin before they are supposed to.
And there is a fundamental distrust between people and power around the world that is growing stronger every day. This is disseminated and shared over the Web. Attempts to control or discredit this digital stream of thought or consciousness has not quite succeeded.
I reckon the custodians have bitten off more than they can chew this time round and may end up the way of the Tsars of Russia, Louis XVI of France and Charles I of England….
23 Nov 2011, 02:39 am
now the coollyarselick creep is creeping up the Anc’s gat. If it ain’t the pinkarse Us governments lily white gat he’s creeping up and skiving off their Greenspan’s greenbacks, then he wanna come like the honey asse two faced commie and pretend he’s the latest Anc comrade up their fat cat arse
23 Nov 2011, 02:40 am
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-394: There comes a time when billionaires don’t create wealth. Rather wealth is appropriated and captured… not created. From being builders and creators they transform into parasites…
23 Nov 2011, 03:00 am
the Bill Gates and Richard Bransons of the world etc created their own wealth through hard work and ingenuity and no amount of jealousy and disillusioned desiring by these pseudo fake commies who pretend be such conscientious socially uplifting altruists will alleviate the poverty or down trodden status of the masses
23 Nov 2011, 03:10 am
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-399: You naive dumbfool…
Gates especially is past the point where his wealth accumulates due to his “hard work and ingenuity”…
Farken idiot.
23 Nov 2011, 03:45 am
Gates is a product of capitalist accumulative pyramid system where the pawns at the base of the pyramid feed the fat cat who initiated the initial wealth seating structure. But that is a flaw of the system and not of the ingenious hard working capital creator
23 Nov 2011, 04:06 am
Gates is a very intelligent guy who has achieved a tremendous amount in his life but don’t let that soft endearing nerdy looking face fool you. Microsoft are RUTHLESS. They place their shareholders at the forefront of every decision they make and they have no qualms in crushing anybody (individual or business) who they deem an obstruction in their quest for industry dominance. There’s a balance to be achieved between being ethical and being profitable. Even with their charity work I will never support a Microsoft product.
If you’re looking for a true role-model in that industry then look no further than our very own Derrick Shuttleworth, and ask yourselves how he can offer an operating system completely free of charge across the world to people in need that is in many ways better than Microsoft when a Windows 7 package will cost you hundreds of Rands and a Linux package is free to all with a ton of free programs to support it.
23 Nov 2011, 04:27 am
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-402: Sorry, losing my mind here. Derrick Shuttleworth= *Mark Shuttleworth*
23 Nov 2011, 07:09 am
Hi HG and others trying to keep an open-mind.
Here’s a (more balanced than most) article written by con law expert, Pierre de Vos. Apologies if it has been posted here already.
Very few people implicitly and unconditionally trust all government officials, all members of the cabinet and all the members of the intelligence services of their country. Few, surely, believe that they will always act scrupulously, honestly and in strict accordance to the law and the Constitution. (Hell, I am not even sure President Zuma fully trusts all his own ministers.)
One might well implicitly trust ministers and government officials if they belong to the politically party that one passionately supports. Thus, some DA members might blindly trust Helen Zille, while some ANC members might blindly trust Jacob Zuma. But very few of those DA supporters would blindly trust Zuma and very few of those ANC supporters would blindly trust Zille.
And whether one is a die-hard ANC supporter or a die-hard DA supporter, there cannot be too many people around who would blindly trust the members of the intelligence services (in other words the spies whose job it is to deceive, to keep secrets, and to obfuscate, all in the name of protecting national security). Given the way in which our spies have been implicated in various political plots relating to various ANC factions, only a fool will tell you that he or she believes our spies always respect the letter and the spirit of the law and always act honestly, and in the best interest of the Constitution and us citizens. Most would worry that our spies might at some point act in the interest of one or other faction in the ruling party, in the interest of members of the police or the military (as some did in attempts to try and protect the corrupt former Police Commissioner) or merely in their own interest. After all, members of the intelligence service has often acted unlawfully and unconstitutionally over the past few years.
This is why a discussion of the dangers of the Protection of State Information Bill passed by the National Assembly today (and now to be discussed by the National Council of Provinces), raises difficult questions. On the one hand the Bill on its face is not nearly as draconian as members of the media keep arguing. The Bill represents a vast improvement on the truly draconian Bill first tabled in Parliament last year and — at least on paper — now contains many safeguards to protect us against the emergence of a secretive national security state or the abuse of the Bill to cover up corruption, maladministration and other kinds of criminality in government.
However, on the other hand, the BIll cannot be judged on paper, but must be judged in the context in which spies and politicians have often been revealed over the past few years to be less than honourable and respectful of the law.
The problem with the new “improved” version of the Bill and the safeguards included in it, is that it assumes that we can blindly trust all government Ministers, state officials and spies to understand the intricacies (and seemingly contradictory aspects) of this Bill and to always apply it in accordance with this perfect understanding of the various provisions of the Bill. It also assumes that those who are empowered to classify documents and review the classification of documents will do so with one eye on the Constitution. Furthermore, it assumes rather optimistically, that the Minister of State Security (whose wive was recently convicted of drug running), other MInisters authorised to classify documents and the spies whose job it is so sow confusion, spread lies and general deceive others while hidden behind a cloak of secrecy, will not abuse their power and will only act in accordance with the letter and spirit of the Bill.
Of course we know that a number of Ministers, including Defence Minister Lindiwe Sisulu and State Security Minister Siyabonga Cwele, have refused to answer questions about their travel costs and hotel stays on the grounds that this would compromise their personal security, displaying a rather authoritarian view on keeping secrets in the interest of security and abusing the excuse of security to evade accountability for possible wasteful expenditure or, worse. One will therefore have to be an eternal optimist to believe that MInisters, spies and other officials authorised by this BIll to classify documents as secret or top secret will not abuse that power at some point or another.
Having said that, it is clear that the main aim of the Bill is not to protect Ministers or the government more generally from exposure for corrupt and other nefarious activities. Section 3(2) of the Act states that the classification, reclassification and declassification provisions of the Bill apply to the security services of the Republic (in other words, the Army, the Police and the Intelligence Services). However Section 3(2)(b)also allows any organ of state (including any government ministry) to ask the Minister of State Security to empower them to classify documents that could supposedly threaten “national security”. If the Minister exercises this power prudently, the scope of the Bill will be much reduced. However, given the paranoid and defamatory statements by the Minister that those who oppose passage of the Bill are being funded by foreign spy agencies, and given that there is a serious question mark over Minister’s judgment, it is not clear that he will not abuse this power.
Section 12 of the Act states that state information may be classified as confidential “if the information is sensitive information, the disclosure of which is likely or could reasonably be expected to cause demonstrable harm to national security of the Republic”. State information may be classified as secret “if the information is sensitive information, the disclosure of which is likely or could reasonably be expected to cause serious demonstrable harm to national security of the Republic”, while state information “may be classified as top secret if the information is sensitive information, the disclosure of which is likely or could reasonably be expected to demonstrably cause serious or irreparable harm to the national security of the Republic”.
‘‘National security’’ is defined as including (and one therefore presume not limited to) the protection of the people of the Republic and the territorial integrity of the Republic against the threat of use of force or the use of force; as well a hostile acts of foreign intervention directed at undermining the constitutional order of the Republic; terrorism or espionage; exposure of a state security matter with the intention of undermining the constitutional order of the Republic; and exposure of economic, scientific or technological secrets vital to the Republic. It explicitly excludes lawful political activity, advocacy, protest or dissent;
With the exception of the subsection dealing with economic or technological secrets, this list looks innocuous. However, it must be read together with section 14(3) of the Bill which states that those classing Bills as secret must consider whether the disclosure may
expose the identity of a confidential source, or reveal information about the 40application of an intelligence or law enforcement investigative method, or reveal the identity of an intelligence or police source when the unlawful disclosure of that source would clearly and demonstrably damage the national security of the Republic or the interests of the source or his or her family;
clearly and demonstrably impair the ability of government to protect officials or persons for whom protection services, in the interest of national security,are authorised;
seriously and substantially impair national security, defence or intelligence systems, plans or activities;
seriously and demonstrably impair relations between South Africa and a foreign government, or seriously and demonstrably undermine ongoing diplomatic activities of the Republic;
violate a statute, treaty, or international agreement, including an agreement between the South African government and another government or international institution; or
cause life threatening or other physical harm to a person or persons.19
If a spy (or a Minister who wishes to hide the fact that he or she has been living it up at the Mount Nelson or has visited a girlfriend in a Swiss jail) read section 14(3) in isolation, he or she may well classify information that would clearly have very little to do with national security. What is therefore limited by the definition of “national security” might well be smuggled back into the act via the back door in section 14(3) of the Bill. I can already imagine Minister Lindiwe Sisulu from pointing to the second bullet point above to justify the classification of all sorts of documents that might embarrass Ministers or might expose the corruption they have been involved in. Because the Bill is so complicated, it would be difficult to make plausible arguments in the public domain that the MInister is abusing the Bill.
But this is not the end of the matter. Section 32(1) does provide a safeguard which could in certain circumstances be effective. It states that a person who wants to gain access to a classified document may apply to a court for appropriate relief after the requester has exhausted the internal appeal procedure against a decision of the relevant Minister of the organ of state in question. If one has every reason to know that a document exists (for example, that a document exist setting out the cost of a Minister’s travel and Hotel stays) , this avenue will be costly but mostly effective (unless one is unlucky enough to have to argue one’s case before a slavishly pro-executive judge).
The problem arises where one receives a document that is classified and the only way one would have known of the existence is if one had been leaked the document. One must then immediately hand back the document to the Police before one can challenge the wrongful classification. If one fails to do so, one could be prosecuted and sentenced to jail. If one holds on to the document, the Minister might say that such a document does not exist and one would not be able to contradict him or her as this would amount to an admission of committing a crime. Moreover, how one would convince a court that a document should be declassified if one does not have access to the document, is not clear.
In short, on paper the Bill that was passed today is not as bad as many in the media argue. But in practice it might be devastating as it might protect our spies and our politician from scrutiny required to keep them on the strait and narrow. It might set us on the slippery slope towards a secretive national security state – as Steven Friedman argued today in Business Day. As an afterthought, it might also help to protect the venal and the corrupt.
Although safeguards do exist in theory, in practice these safeguards will often be illusory (especially for anyone without access to very clever lawyers and pots of money) unless those entrusted with applying the law will always act absolutely honestly, with brilliant insight into the law and with one eye towards the Constitution. The chances of this happening is about as slim as the chances of me winning the Miss World Competition.
This means, for example, that where activists of Abahlali baseMjondolo or the Landless People’s Movement are illegally targeted by the security services because they are perceived to be a threat to the ANC government and their phones bugged, their houses attacked or their leaders tortured and murdered, it would be almost impossible for the organisation to prove this when all the documents that could do so will be classified. Ironically, only the media will have the resources to expose such abuse of power, but this would require the media targeted at the middle classes to display far more concern for the well-being of these social movements whose interests do not always align with the interests of the middle classes served by the serious media.
In a state in which trust has been eroded, a Bill like the one passed today becomes even more scary than it otherwise would have been. The strong reaction of civil society to the Bill therefore says just as much about the specific provisions of the Bill than it says about the fact that the governing party and state institutions have squandered the trust and goodwill it had acquired overman years of struggle. No wonder the ANC politicians are so upset.
23 Nov 2011, 07:48 am
Quotas stay !!
Rugby in particular came under fire, with SA Rugby Union (SARU) president Oregan Hoskins defending his federation.
Hoskins admitted the sport had not progressed as much as it could have in terms of transformation, but he invited more black people to get involved in rugby.
“It will not help to talk only in this forum. I also experienced the worst form of apartheid and the fact of the matter is that I am democratically elected [as SARU president],” Hoskins said.
“So I urge my comrades with the expertise to make yourselves available to the rugby unions and SARU to have a say.
“To effect change in rugby we have to start in the boardroom because, as you know, most of my brothers in rugby are white.”
Hoskins said he would seek clarity from Mbalula and the Sports Ministry as to what had been decided regarding quotas.
“We have heard the decision and that is contrary to what the Minister had said earlier – that quotas had been done away with,” Hoskins said.
“The indaba has decided that quotas should not be done away with, so we will meet as SA rugby to discuss the effect of what has happened here.”
23 Nov 2011, 07:58 am
@justrugby(justrugby)-405: what a moron. Change starts at grassroots, getting more black schools to participate and provide facilities for them.
Its easy enough to kick a ball around in an open veld or gravel pitch, can’t quite play rugby on it.
So, until such time as these facilities are available you will not increase the number of black players in the system, unless they come through the “elite” schools.
23 Nov 2011, 08:07 am
@justrugby(justrugby)-405:
It never really gone away or anything, only the weak minds among us who failed to see the reality did believeit was scrapped
Rugby remains a tough contact sport that will keeps taking its toll, so while the Aplons/Jacobs/Chilibois/Beasts may survive without a scratch, their teams will not!
So who will be the next Boks’ coach?
23 Nov 2011, 08:11 am
@Hondo(Hondo)-407: its not like any of them came from township schools either
23 Nov 2011, 08:15 am
apparently aid jacobs is keen on joining the stormers…
23 Nov 2011, 08:15 am
@My nr1 nr2 too(trupisero)-406:
Facilities need fortune to build and huge ongoing outlay to maintaine
Take a visit to any of the many dozens rugby grounds that were created back in the 1980s and the 1990s around the country by the good wiilers for the ‘under privileged’, what would you find?
Falling after empty rhetoric is a poor judgement, quoting it as a face value is worse!
23 Nov 2011, 08:22 am
@Upho(ufo)-409:
23 Nov 2011, 08:23 am
@grant10(grant10)-411:
hey bud..
i just don’t get your point…!!
23 Nov 2011, 08:25 am
@grant10(grant10)-411: Not sure that would be the wisest thing for stormers to do ….
23 Nov 2011, 08:26 am
@My nr1 nr2 too(trupisero)-408:
None of that expected, chiliboi for instance is a ‘product’ of Pretoria Boys High’
@Upho(ufo)-409:
Jacobs won’t be left alone fo fend for himself, rest assured,
23 Nov 2011, 08:26 am
@Upho(ufo)-412: LOL
Need coffee bud
23 Nov 2011, 08:27 am
@Upho(ufo)-409: Well he needs a paycheck and if AC gets the Springbok job as everyone suspects, then Pieter De Villiers may get the Stormers job. Which means Adi will most likely be in the run on 15, given his favour with his uncle…..
23 Nov 2011, 08:27 am
@grant10(grant10)-413:
i am sure it will not be wise at all…!!
apparently jacobs has also had talks with boland… i think that would be a wiser move for both parties…
23 Nov 2011, 08:28 am
@grant10(grant10)-415:
hehehe…
23 Nov 2011, 08:29 am
@justrugby(justrugby)-405:
I guess if we think about why are we suprised?
Quotas exist in every othert facet of south african life.
Why not in sport?
23 Nov 2011, 08:30 am
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-416:
sheesh…
you like telling scary stories first thing in the morning…!!
let’s hope boland see adi as a worthy buy…!!
23 Nov 2011, 08:35 am
@Upho(ufo)-420:
23 Nov 2011, 08:37 am
Interesting that Ad’s stock was quite high in 2008, so much so that all and sundry, including WP were looking to sign him.
He apparently demanded too much though.
Doubt they’ll still be interested with JdV, JdJ and JF on their books.
Might be a nice bargain basement deal though.
23 Nov 2011, 08:40 am
Good morning all.
I wonder why cats & dogs hate each other so much? Or is it just plain instinct?
Our boerboel went bonkers when a stray cat passed …… talking about humans losing their cool…. man you should have seen this….
dis net dinges en hare wat spat!
23 Nov 2011, 08:46 am
@grant10(grant10)-413:
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-416:
Well, you blokes in the Cape have wanted an extra prop for ages.
With Adi going down there, you have your wish.
23 Nov 2011, 08:46 am
@Taahirah(Taahirah)-422: Adi walked on water in 2008…..brilliant season…absolutely magic
23 Nov 2011, 08:48 am
Quoatas stil in place.
Info bills being passed.
Derrick Watts and his team will most certainly be under the kosh right now.
23 Nov 2011, 08:49 am
So, what has Hoskins achieved ito transformation in 2 terms?
23 Nov 2011, 08:49 am
@Staal(Staal)-423: it is like the bulle and the weeepeeee
in our DNA
23 Nov 2011, 08:50 am
@John Galt(John Galt)-424:
23 Nov 2011, 08:51 am
@John Galt(John Galt)-424: LOL
Vokkoff man!
Send us Jannie …..
Adi should have come to WP a long time ago.
I am not sure Plum handled that oke very well….
23 Nov 2011, 08:54 am
@John Galt(John Galt)-424:
You Shark supporters ridicule your players so easily once they have left, the guy has been a loyal shark player for years ………………….show some respect man !!!!
Or is the respect exclusively saved for captain aura ??
23 Nov 2011, 08:55 am
@grant10(grant10)-428:
good point! But i won’t go so far as hating you guys…. 
@John Galt(John Galt)-424:
23 Nov 2011, 09:00 am
@grant10(grant10)-425: walked on water with that pens?
nada.
23 Nov 2011, 09:00 am
Adi Jacobs has passed his sell by date unfortunately.
23 Nov 2011, 09:01 am
@justrugby(justrugby)-431:
Settle down fu ck stick. Im having a laugh.
I have been one of Adis supporters in recent times. In fact I would rather have sent Joubert your way.
23 Nov 2011, 09:01 am
@Staal(Staal)-432: I also dont hate you okes…..
Just dont really understand you bliksems….
23 Nov 2011, 09:02 am
@Staal(Staal)-433: 2008
he was slick
but then Plum never ever gave him a chance…..never quite understood why Adi remained so loyal….
23 Nov 2011, 09:02 am
@Great White Shark(Predawn)-434:
Rather have him than Joubert boet.
23 Nov 2011, 09:04 am
@grant10(grant10)-436: it takes an open mind…
23 Nov 2011, 09:05 am
@John Galt(John Galt)-438:
as an outsider on this issue… why not him and Joubert?
23 Nov 2011, 09:07 am
@John Galt(John Galt)-435:
Ok……………. you excused then, I will remove the boot from your throat !!
I would also have sent Joubert this way, as long as he stopped his journey in Paarl (Boland) ,great player who is at the end of his career and the body simply no longer can deliver what the mind requires !!
23 Nov 2011, 09:07 am
I reckon sharks gonna still surprise by buying a centre and a lock
No way they can go into super 15 with current players
23 Nov 2011, 09:07 am
@John Galt(John Galt)-438:
Word is there are quite a few youngsters training with The Sharks this season. I’m hoping this is the start of something special with the NRU.
Get the veterans on the bench and blood the new breed of Sharks for the future.
23 Nov 2011, 09:09 am
@Great White Shark(Predawn)-443: Sharks will always be close to the top.. imo. Good union. Great supporters, great stadium…
spoke to Vic about it…he is very impressed with shark management…. and their plans.
23 Nov 2011, 09:10 am
@Staal(Staal)-440:
Nyet thank you very much.
23 Nov 2011, 09:14 am
If they keep up this trend of drafting in the Under 21 players there might be hope for us in 2012.
One of them is a 19 year old lock. Wonder how he’ll do.
23 Nov 2011, 09:15 am
@grant10(grant10)-442: buy him from where, France? they already did that and came back with Marius “i am unfit” Joubert!
23 Nov 2011, 09:15 am
@Great White Shark(Predawn)-443:
They have some U21s in the S15 training group at present. Mtembu, Jordaan, Prinsloo, Dutoit, Marais, Redelinghuis and Reinach I think.
Remains to be seen which of those will be kept on though. Im not holding my breath given Strauli and Plums recent player selections.
Out of all of the players mentioned above, I would love to see Jordaan, Prinsloo, and Pieter Steph du Toit stay on. Mtembu as well but he might struggle given the depth at loose foreward at the Sharks.
23 Nov 2011, 09:21 am
@Taahirah(Taahirah)-404: thank you Taa!
pierre raised exactly the points i tried – in my own layman way – to raise with Mpundulu last night re the intelligence services! we know they are partisan or open to manipulation – especially with Mo Shaik as big d!ck in that Dept.
asking the country to implicitly trust the current governing party might be one thing, but they’re not guaranteed to be in power till kingdom come, next thing we have ANOTHER crowd with even more nefarious inclinations and we’re bummed.
23 Nov 2011, 09:22 am
@Taahirah(Taahirah)-422: if WP could sign Frikkie Welch(sp) then they can sign Adi
23 Nov 2011, 09:23 am
Well lets see. Strooli probably has something up his sleeve with regards to a midfield signing and wants Adi out the way.
23 Nov 2011, 09:25 am
@Great White Shark(Predawn)-451:
Gcobani Bobo.
23 Nov 2011, 09:26 am
@John Galt(John Galt)-452:
Just kidding.
But not outside the realms of possibility when it comes that do os Strauli.
23 Nov 2011, 09:28 am
Don’t swear at me.
23 Nov 2011, 09:32 am
Grumpy Henry is looking for a high position in New Zealand rugby but not in coaching…looks like he’s aiming for a presidency.
23 Nov 2011, 09:35 am
@Great White Shark(Predawn)-454:
Who’s messing with you
Must I moer them
23 Nov 2011, 09:36 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-449:
Not just the intelligence services.
This places power in the hands of the executive who are the very people who would be exposed.
It also brings the role ofthe judiciary sharply back into focus and the executive’s recent statements that the courts “must respect the ambitions of the people” when in truth their role (at the very highest level) is the stewardship of the constitution.
In a country where the separation of powers and the checks and balances of the different arms of government are not as strong as they might be, this bill lends itself to massive potential abuse.
23 Nov 2011, 09:39 am
@Gunther(gunther)-457:
When I grow up I want to be the Minister of State Security
23 Nov 2011, 09:40 am
@Dawn(Dawn)-456:
You got my back Dawn?
23 Nov 2011, 09:40 am
@Dawn(Dawn)-456:
Sharky will deal with them in his own way.
Welcome to the Jungle Baby.
23 Nov 2011, 09:41 am
@John Galt(John Galt)-453:
Heres hoping he has gone on from hiring other provinces has-beens. Leave that job to the Lions.
23 Nov 2011, 09:42 am
Can anyone even tell the ANC and ZANU PF apart these days?
23 Nov 2011, 09:45 am
@>^..^< katman(katman)-462:
They all look the same to me.
23 Nov 2011, 09:47 am
@>^..^< katman(katman)-462:
South Africa is fast approaching a Syria like state….doing a 360 degree like Zimbuggered. Helen Zille needs to purchase a bullet-proof vest sharp sharp. The ANC will not tolerate agents glady once the Bill becomes law.
23 Nov 2011, 09:47 am
@Gunther(gunther)-463:
Funny
23 Nov 2011, 09:52 am
@Gunther(gunther)-457: yeah i know it’s not only intelligence services. yep, i put that one to Mpundulu last night too, very shapr focus on the judiciary considering the fact that Zuma keeps overlooking a person like Dikgang for con-court judge pres for okes that can be seen to be in bed with the executive.
checks and balances.
23 Nov 2011, 10:01 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-466:
exactly.
In the absence of a realistic (for the time being opposition) the media in this country has filled part of that vacuum.
The chekcs and balances of an immature democracy are not well-suited to one-party politics.
23 Nov 2011, 10:39 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-466: @Gunther(gunther)-467: But the ANC is all in favour of checks and balances – i.e. keep the checks coming so the balances stay positive.
23 Nov 2011, 10:51 am
@Great White Shark(Predawn)-459:
As long as you got mine.
23 Nov 2011, 10:56 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-449: I hear your point, it’s impossible to write an aspirant act with the strict purpose of stating that every minister will act nefariously, we have to at some point concede that whether it be the anc or da, that the government operates under good intentions and individuals will at times misuse their positions. Additionally, government acts strengthen and become clearer over time, hence the provision of amendments and constitutional court legal recourse. This will have loopholes, there will be instances whereby ministers and the public will take advantage of these deficiencies but our democratic system permits for there to be redress. The intentions of the bill I believe are aspirant and should be lauded, however, as a responsible public we must also be vigilant as to its shortcomings.
23 Nov 2011, 11:01 am
Its shortcomings are that it has no public interest defense. And this is not an oversight or the fault of it being “aspirant”. It is very intentional and says all you need to know about the motivation for this bill.
It’s their (your?) turn to eat, after all.
Defend these corrupt cadres all you like. No one outside of the ANC buys their bullshit in any way or form.
23 Nov 2011, 11:11 am
@>^..^< katman(katman)-471: Ok, in what manner is there no public interest defense? Bearing in mind there’s already a whistleblower act in place, and the bill speaks to maladministration as well. The suggestion that all bills enacted or tabled by the anc are essentially nefarious would effectively mean there’s no need for a legislative function in our democracy. There’s no doubt corruption exists in government, however, to infer or state that all government organs and individuals are fundamentally corrupt and seek to perpetually to be against the interest of the public is stretching one’s cynicism to the extreme. You are effectively saying that South Africa should operate as a libertarian state!
23 Nov 2011, 11:12 am
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-470:
“our democratic system permits for there to be redress.”
Beautiful it is.
Have you read the bill, seeing that you asking all the whities here.
23 Nov 2011, 11:18 am
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-472: i quite like the work of Thuli Madonsela, can she also ask the State Security Minister to review a classification of a particular document?
23 Nov 2011, 11:20 am
@>^..^< katman(katman)-471:
what is “aspirant” about it?
worse than that though it condemns the whistleblower with honest intentions.
who would expose nefarious deeds in igovernment now?
This is also bout damage control in the lead up to the Party Conference.
The bosses don’t want disaffected parties talking out of turn.
After all there is a lot of dirty laundry to keep quiet about.
I would like to know what foreign spies are “preying” on our system?
23 Nov 2011, 11:24 am
@>^..^< katman(katman)-471: @mpundulu(mpundulu)-472: who or what defines “public interest”? in the article taahirah posted pierre made a poignant observation in the the media in SA predominantly carries the interests of the middle class and the question is will they be willing to go through process & potentially costly legal recourse in the interest of as pierre said, the landless?
so how different is “public interest” from vested interests?
23 Nov 2011, 11:24 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-466: State presidents have the right to appoint judges that take a view that is more in line with their political sway, this is not endemic to south Africa, in the US, democratic and republic presidents have over time appointed supreme court judges who speak to their end. Like the US, SA has a constitutional court judgeship appointment process, whereby judge-elects are grilled in front of a government committe that constitutes various party representatives prior to their confirmation.
23 Nov 2011, 11:24 am
Yeesh
All these court applications will tie the Judiciary into several knots.
23 Nov 2011, 11:26 am
I see extraball made an unwelcome comeback in the middle of the night.
23 Nov 2011, 11:27 am
@Gunther(gunther)-475: the french were alleged to be roping in sakhi macozoma before Polokwane which in necessitated the lauching of Project Avanza. can’t trust those Frogs
23 Nov 2011, 11:28 am
What does this government committee know about judicial system that they have right to “grill” potential judges.
23 Nov 2011, 11:28 am
@Dawn(Dawn)-473: I stated previously that I’ve read the bill and equally, there won’t be a single interpretation of it, many people will have varying views, hence it’s agreed to or challenged in the houses of parliament, the purpose of democracy is not to gain absolute consensus or uniformity but rather to gain a majority perspective.
23 Nov 2011, 11:28 am
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-472:
20% of every Rand spent by the state is lost to corruption.
If that’s not endemic I don’t know what is.
23 Nov 2011, 11:30 am
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-477: i’m very much aware of the processes and that this is happening elsewhere in the world, the point is, the separation of powers can be muddled too.
#jusayin
23 Nov 2011, 11:32 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-474: Lol, well she’s certainly vigilante and a competent aggressor, I’m certain she’ll play a pivotal role in keeping all and sundry honest.
23 Nov 2011, 11:35 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-484: Agreed, separation of powers is muddled, and it’s questioned in most democratic countries.
23 Nov 2011, 11:37 am
@Gunther(gunther)-483: what is the % in the UK?
23 Nov 2011, 11:37 am
Basically what this bill comes down to is the “trust us, we’ll police ourselves” viewpoint.
Which works for the guys who are genuinely well intentioned. The “honour system” if you will.
But it’ like manna from heaven for the corrupt,
23 Nov 2011, 11:38 am
@Gunther(gunther)-483: Instead of perpetually complaining about, let’s provide a solution as to what ought to be done to minimize it.
23 Nov 2011, 11:38 am
@Gunther(gunther)-475: Arms Deals, Mangaung, Malema… who needs foreign spies with so many threats to the crown right here under our very noses?
This feeding trough needs to be secured at all cost.
23 Nov 2011, 11:40 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-487: Or the united states, Greece, turkey, Italy, and France?
23 Nov 2011, 11:41 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-480:
Once a coloinalist always a colonialist.
23 Nov 2011, 11:41 am
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-489: Report on it, you tool. Tell the world about the crooks. Shout it from the hilltops. Name and shame them, so that prosecution can follow.
O, hang on, we can’t do that now, can we?
23 Nov 2011, 11:48 am
@>^..^< katman(katman)-493: why are you insulting him, because he doesn’t share the same view as you?
23 Nov 2011, 11:50 am
US citizens believe that mutiple $100 billion bailout of financial institutions in the US was the most corrupt act of the century, hence, the many US versions of toy-toying in DC and Wall Street. Some chaps I interact with on the street informed they bigger bonuses after the bailout then during the boom. Not to mention the collusion between Henry Paulson and his mates at Goldman, Citigroup, JP Morgan etc etc.
23 Nov 2011, 11:52 am
The real losers in this Bill are not as much those with financial resources to fight prosecution, but rather the poor of SA who do not have the financial ability to fight for the transparency that they need. In theory, if an investigative journalist obtains information that was classified secret but that in reality covers up obvious corruption, they can with some confidence expect the courts to rule that this document should not have been classified as secret in the first place. Where this leaves the person who leaked the documeny to the journo however, is unclear. But it doesn’t look promising,
Similarly if a group of people in a township are suspicious that a municipality
is corrupt and has managed to get their evidence declared secret, they would firtsly not know about it, and secondly not have the resources required to force the disclosure.
Another real issue here is that this bill gives the security services a lot more opportunity to classify and therefore conceal their activities, which as we have seen over the years, have often turned out to be less than legitimate.
23 Nov 2011, 11:52 am
With all this vehement criticism of the Bill,I have one question for many on here…Many place emphasis that the bill is a mechanism for the government to regulate itself without being held accountable in the public domain ryt?? Who regulates that very media that releases such information? (And how sure are we that they are not acting nefariously or lobbying a certain agenda?)
As the previous processes have proven to be ineffective as mechanisms such as media watchdog/ombudsman are industry selected & predominantly serve their own needs. As mentioned earlier the media also serves a certain constituency/subsection of society mostly which is the middle class who ultimately contribute to their bottom line the most so they arent exactly the moral body of representivity(public interest) unilaterally.
Who and what keeps an eye on the media and their activities?
A weeks ago a story was published in Sunday Times or Tribune (claiming public interest) of the Zuma household/combine in Nkandla.The publication proceeded in meticuously illustrating the structure of the homes,as well as escape routes,underground tunnels,landing area of hellicopters,the pattern of security around Zuma family in relation to building etc…..hmmm how is that for putting the lives possibly in danger of the man who holds the highest office in the land as well as his family. Just an example of current situation…
23 Nov 2011, 11:56 am
@>^..^< katman(katman)-493: You seem frustrated with me but you essentially don’t know why, it fuels your animosity even further. Bizarre.
Naming and shaming is one thing, however, I’d imagine you’d want a more secure solution like a regime change, perhaps. It’s not incumbent on the anc to strengthen opposition parties, it’s the prerogative of those parties to convince the majority of the electorate that their story sounds better, and don’t for a moment believe that with a new government led party corruption will suddenly cease.
23 Nov 2011, 11:56 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-487:
Who gives a **** about them?
do you think it’s acceptable in a country with the developmental needs of South Africa that 20 cents in every Rand spent is stolen?
According to the 2010 Transparency International’s 2009 Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI) we are the 54th least corrupt country in the world.
Behind Great Britain by some distance.
Stop being an apologist.
23 Nov 2011, 11:57 am
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-496: “municpality documents” a matter of national security? if the municipalities were procuring weapons or the mayors cooking tenders for Sicilians ja…tl tl tl
23 Nov 2011, 11:59 am
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-498:
bathathe,,,Mnumzane kade ngifunda ngizithulele lana.Bayabila ngaphakathi ngoba uyayazi lento oyishoyo futhi uyifundile iBill..Bona balalela abangani babo egymini,bazwe nge-eNews bese beyokoza amasimba. Ubabuyisela esikoleni.
23 Nov 2011, 12:00 pm
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-497:
More to the point.
why are we paying for it?
are you happy that tens of millions of rand are being spent on his personal residence whilst you have relatives that live in townships?
It’s the Usual Suspects claiming that we “don’t understand the dynamic”.
The joke is on you.
23 Nov 2011, 12:03 pm
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-497: A state must have the ability to determine which information if placed in the public domain will be detrimental to the countries efforts to effectively govern. The media in SA is a law unto itself and rarely substantiates it’s stories and seems to continually target a specific group unrelenting, and there’s little investigated of the other groupings.
23 Nov 2011, 12:04 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-500: That’s the point. There is a provision for any minister to apply to have the authority to classify documents. Then for example, they can classify documents on a municipal level, if it shows that local tenders were awarded to a relative of the minister.
Does that sound familar? It should. It happens all the time.
23 Nov 2011, 12:04 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-496:
seriusly? Municipal record? When have they ever been regarded as matter of national security? And as mentioned earlier “maladministration,misuse of state resources in government/police etc” is not included in Bill.In fact it states they must be procesuted under the protracted legislature.
23 Nov 2011, 12:08 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-499: What are you going to do about it? You are very effective at complaining but excessively short on solutions.
23 Nov 2011, 12:08 pm
Or how about this one? A defence force contract is awarded for catering at it’s bases nation-wide. The owner of the catering company is a connected person (i.e.) relative of a senior defense official and quoted 3 x the price of the next best bidder. They classify all documents under the national security provision. So no one ever gets to hear about it. Sop the corruption is never uncovered in the first place.
Capice?
23 Nov 2011, 12:10 pm
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-501: Lol, ndiyaba tsweba nje kancinci.
23 Nov 2011, 12:12 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-502: Are you telling transie, to get that R10 million from zuma and build a few houses for his kith and kin?
23 Nov 2011, 12:12 pm
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-497:
The media will always be lobbying a certain agenda. That is their right. Freedom of speech and all.
Look at the Oreilly factor on Fox News Channel, he pushes a conservative GOP agenda.
Jon Steward on the Daily Show pushes something a bit more liberal/Democrat, although he really just parodies everyone. But you get the idea.
As for the leaking of the Inkandla residences layout, that is unfortunate, but to me that just means someone in his inner circle is not to be trusted and if the media can get hold of that info, you can be damn sure someone with darker ideas could get hold of it as well.
If the media act unlawfully according to law, ie defamation, illegal actions(News of the World etc) then they must be held responsible in front of a judge and jury.
No good can come of muzzling the media. None.
23 Nov 2011, 12:12 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-502:
more to what point exactky? Why is your perspective appropriated to be the acceptable one. The president’s safety as well that of his family must not be used as a tool to drive a specific agenda at any point whatever it is.
And as mentioned by office of the presidency the household itself is being funded by the president privately. The Auxillary services (conjuction with household) such as the police station,emergency clinics,the tarring of the roads leading to and from household and around Nkandla area are funded by government (Public works etc) and are also accessible to the public and also led to improved amenities in the area-shopping mall also been built in area,increased transport efficiency etc
23 Nov 2011, 12:14 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-499: dude, FECK OFF!!!!!
i asked you to quantify something, i’m not an apologist for anything…
the namecalling in this place is just ridiculous
hehehe
23 Nov 2011, 12:16 pm
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-501:
23 Nov 2011, 12:16 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-507: Why would such a document be classified? Really, a catering contract, seriously! A toasted bacon, egg, and cheese sandwich is a state secret!?
In lieu of more national security interest documents would you prefer that they are tabled publicly and we the citizens decide which documents ought to be classified?
23 Nov 2011, 12:21 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-498: Damn straight, I’m frustrated with you. But the thing is, I know exactly why.
Corruption apologists like you feel vindicated by the fact that it is a predominately white, middle class and media who are shining a spotlight on the pigs at the trough. As though that immediately discredits the view. You’re happier with a bunch of black politicians bleeding the country dry while they can than with a bunch of white editors pointing out the uncomfortable truth. You perceive it as a racial slight that black struggle veterans are accused of pilfering and pocketing, rightfully or not. And so you return the racial slight by implying that the criticism of them MUST be racially motivated.
You, semi-sarcastically, say that I’d prefer a regime change to simply naming and shaming them. But the mind-blowing part here – and the source of my frustration with blind loyalists like you – is that you DON’T seem to want to replace a mob of dishonest rulers with a set of honest administrators.
And they say that WE were brainwashed by the Nats…
23 Nov 2011, 12:23 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-506:
You don’t seem to have a PROBLEM with it at all.
Which is strange.
Unless you snout is in the trough too.
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-511:
do you think the cost is reasonable when the president as three other official residences to use?
exactly what aspects are being funded by the man himself on his presidential salary?
@Transformation(Transformation)-512:
its exactly what you are.
I asked whether the level in corruption in this country was acceptable (and it gets worse every year) and you start asking about Britain?
Talk about moving the goaplosts.
If it wakls like a pig and talks like a pig…..
Anyway they say every nation gets the goverment it deserves.
Judging by you guys this might just be true.
23 Nov 2011, 12:23 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-514: Why indeed? You are proving the very point I’m trying to make. The minister has the authority to classify the documents. He may give some lame excuse like “we need to protect the source of our food because the stability of our country could be seriously undermined if some malintentioned country gets hold of that info and poisons the supply, thereby rendering our armed forces significantly weakened as a result”
Sound ridiculous?? Wait for it.
23 Nov 2011, 12:25 pm
Soon Gunther will tell us that the protection of the president is a waste of state funds, and that funding ought to be earmarked to the police to hire 10 more guys for the streets. Better he may even inform us that public officials ought not to have any state funded cars, zuma’s cavalcade is excessive and a mountain bike is more appropriate. Additionally, there’s no requirement for air force one, zuma should pay for his own economy class ticket on saa on state visits.
23 Nov 2011, 12:27 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-516: There is absolutely no defending the ridiculous spend on the President’s houses as reported recently. Anyone trying to do so has long since lost whatever moral high ground he was trying to cling to. Can’t believe fairly intelligent people here think they can seriously push that point of view to other fairly intelligent people. It boggles.
23 Nov 2011, 12:28 pm
@John Galt(John Galt)-510:
Lobbying even at the expense of the very “public interest” the claim to purport? (Under guise of freedom of speech) nah mate,they regulate themselves the media-the regulatory bodies/ombudsman etc have proven ineffectual and the retraction pieces to follow etc are a joke-damage and perception already formed.(ie: Remember Montlanthe claims he had fathered a child that were untrue)
SA situation completely different to US/UK in relation to media & agenda disseminated.Same mechanisms & processes dont exist. On issues related to national security or intergral to nation building/national psyche which ever the incumbent party(Democrat/Republican) some things just arent out to be published on public domain.(Patriot Act)
Same thing applies to a large extent,only if media were to be trusted to be absolved of all the nefarious behaviour associated with power
23 Nov 2011, 12:29 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-518:
Have you SEEN the size of his motorcade?
I have.
and its about three times the size of the british Prime Ministers.
Mind you they always say that the size of the President’s security detail is inversely proportional to the importance of that nation.
Please man, even junior ministers don’t fly lala class.
I see the fish eagle is being mothballed and we are buying a new bigger amajetplane.
apparently the fish eagle smells of Thabo’s pipe and doesn’t have enough bedrooms for all the wives and girlfriends.
The press facility has been made smaller though since they won’t have anything to write about anyway.
23 Nov 2011, 12:31 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-516:
“Anyway they say every nation gets the goverment it deserves.
Judging by you guys this might just be true.”
Hahahahahahaha hurts so deep.
23 Nov 2011, 12:31 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-516: how is that being an spologist? i wanted a yardstick of how far down the tubes we are. all you had to do was quote that CPI rating and i would’ve been answered, but no, you had to indulge your own pigheaded proclivities and make assumptions about me.
who is the @ss now?
23 Nov 2011, 12:32 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-515: What gives you the impression that I’m a corruption apologist? I’ve never stated that i support the nefarious activities of any government official. I have though stated that corruption does go hand in hand with governance.
Your fundamental issue with me is that I am able to explain my position and it is in direct opposition to yours, and for you to be opposed and informed that your position is of little base irks you tremendously as you believe you have the exclusive rights to morality and decency and my lot don’t. Maybe the nats did train you well.
23 Nov 2011, 12:32 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-514: That’s the point, comrade. How can you still miss it?
They can classify ANY OLD THING. What makes you believe it will only be state secrets? They can lock away any piece of incriminating documentation, and believe me, they will.
What they don’t take into account is the fact that we live in superconnected times. Wikileaks proved this, and it’s going to get exponentially more difficult to hide the truth.
You can blow out a candle
But you can’t blow out a fire
Once the flames begin to catch
The wind will blow it higher…
(how sadly ironic that these lines were written about Steve Biko)
23 Nov 2011, 12:33 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-516: you’re making a LOT of assumption charlie, show me where on this thread i said i endorse this Bill?
23 Nov 2011, 12:34 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-516: Explain to me how I don’t have a problem with it? Oh, you’d like me to join the complaining party and once I’ve uttered all my grievances I’d have changed the country! Lol
23 Nov 2011, 12:36 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-519:
The idiots probably think the Zimbabwean Secret Service are trying to take him out. Meanwhile their bright yellow Toyota Cressida has broken down on the Beight bridge and they have made a spaza shop out of the shell.
It’s always the same though isn’t it.
“You people” are allowed to criticise any aspect of the ANC or igoverment.
WE don’t understand the dynamic.
Just you wait until the Media Tribunal comes into place.
Personally I look forward to the start of the book burning.
Harry Potter will be the first to feel the flames of the revolution.
23 Nov 2011, 12:36 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-524: When you veer off into character judgements and cereal box psycho analysis, you really start to talk big heaps of kak. Stick to the Party Line Rhetoric. At least that’s been scripted for you.
23 Nov 2011, 12:38 pm
the thing is… it will be at the discretion of each departmental head to classify what they believe should be classified or what they want to classify… there will be no way for any individual or organization to validate whether the classification is really in the national or the individuals or the peoples interest…
so obviously they will classify anything and everything that may show them up in a bad light…
and it’s not just corruption that will be swept under the carpet… but service delivery, competence and meeting the expectations of the people will be impossible to track too…
we will only hear about the good things… (which is important too as their are good things happening that the media of chooses to ignore in favor of sensationalizing the negative…) but it is vital to the country and the people that the bad things are also reported, reviewed and improved…
but any minister who feels slightly threatened because he or she knows they have not delivered or met expectations… will simply declare all the relevant information classified and not only will the media not be able to report and question it… but the people who are waiting expectantly and patiently… will have no way of tracking service implementation… except knowing it hasn’t been delivered to them yet…
so… far from simply muzzling the media… the bill will muzzle the voice of the people…
the only option available to the people to will be to march behind juju… or to rise like our arabian brothers…
if anyone honestly believes that this is the best way forward for the country… well… i find it hard to believe how any rational person could think so…
23 Nov 2011, 12:38 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-524: And you are so a corruption apologist. You are a poster child for corruption apology.
“Get your hands off my leaders! All leaders steal, and at least mine are black!”
23 Nov 2011, 12:41 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-527:
well when it was mentioned, you started talking about all the other countries which were (actually weren’t) worse.
deflection.
lets not upset the money tree hey
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-522:
you don’t understand the dynamic.
that’s all.
@Transformation(Transformation)-523:
Surely it matters not when a fifth of the money the govt spends is WASTED.
what about the uk?
apologist.
23 Nov 2011, 12:43 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-525: So you’re saying that the sole purpose of this bill, which was discussed first by the cabinet, the anc in all it’s committees and bodies was with the express intent to cover up everyone’s corrupt activities? Allowing for new corruption aspirant members to know that they are safe from any light being shone on their deceit? In most instances, corruption occurs through the tender processes, a public process so all and sundry are aware of it, and under your theory you believe that all government tenders after being awarded will simply be classified! That wouldn’t be terribly smart, as it’d establish a transparent trend for all to see.
23 Nov 2011, 12:49 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-531: I have no words.
23 Nov 2011, 12:50 pm
“apologist” now has been elevated up to the status of “rhodesia” in the insult stakes
23 Nov 2011, 12:52 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-532: Ha! Which countries did I say were worse? Did I give any such assessment, did I provide a comparison or merely stated facts in that country?
23 Nov 2011, 12:54 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-515:
Spot-on in every respect!
23 Nov 2011, 12:57 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-470: Hitler and Verwoerd also operated under the ‘auspices’ of ‘good intentions’ so too did Uncle Bob Mugabe, Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Qaddafi and Ayatollah Khumeini, some were even at Nelson Mandela’s inauguration as the new president and champion of a free democracy under these self same ‘Auspices’ of ‘Good Intentions’ as dignitaries and ‘friends’ of the ANC, so who you trying to kid that we simply handing ALL the power to a power base which has less accountability in terms of scrutiny once the muzzle of information has been firmly wrapped over the freedom of speech voice..??
And its you that were first to shout for freedom from persecuting policies when boot was on other foot now transferring the onus of accountability away from those that make and determine policy..
23 Nov 2011, 12:58 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-535: lol. It’s incredible what people imagine and after debating it with themselves convert into some form of fact.
23 Nov 2011, 12:58 pm
534 – Good. That’s an improvement.
23 Nov 2011, 13:00 pm
On a lighter note,just got email about Butch-My Life autograph signing venues….hehehe keo campaign continues…book going to be a dud.
23 Nov 2011, 13:03 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-535: @mpundulu(mpundulu)-539:
Cha,ngoba aniyazi indawo yenu zilima! lol
Futhi ninamanga, lento eniyishoyo ngisho niyifundile aniyazi….
23 Nov 2011, 13:04 pm
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-541:
mshini…
do you know who actually wrote the book…?
i’ve asked several times on keo but never got an answer…
was it keohane…?
23 Nov 2011, 13:04 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-538: Are suggesting that the government should not have the right to classify state sensitive documents? What process would provide you with comfort in lieu of SA’s national interests being kept safe? Maybe a referendum process whenever a minister wants to classify a document, or a blind ballot, or a qualified franchise of only those who have university degrees and can be trusted to keep their discretion. Whether you trust a government or not, it must have the right to the protection of national interests. Maybe someday, a party you trust becomes the head of government, would they also be precluded from classifying state secrets?
23 Nov 2011, 13:05 pm
Well.
Now that my blood is up I’m going to send a strongly worded letter of disapproval to Jacob.
I can only hope he has time between showers and choosing the interiors for his new plane to read it.
23 Nov 2011, 13:07 pm
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-542: Hehehehehe
23 Nov 2011, 13:08 pm
Soon as you have government – Any Government – protecting its transparency and hiding behind legal policy enshrined into law – you have the beginnings of power abuse and dictatorship – or at best Autocratic power manipulative policy and governance ala the exact same ideologically enshrined policies as the Nats abused to hold onto their own power hold and power control over legislation and government..
Hence the new ANC has become the alter ego of the previous regime.. just a different face to the identical same set of principles and dictatorial style politics..
23 Nov 2011, 13:10 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-539: and there’s no need to provide any proof that one is an “apologist” if it is assumed by the moral paragons on this site, you’re IT
23 Nov 2011, 13:10 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-544:
could you or anyone else please explain to me just exactly from whom are we supposed to be protecting our national interests…?
who is it that we find so threatening…? which country or group’s avowed policy is to do harm to south africa…?
in the ‘old days’ it use to be die swart gevaar and the communists…
but just whom is it now that we need to hide all our secrets…?
23 Nov 2011, 13:11 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-544: Who will have the veto or the discretionary power whether to disclose or keep secret ANY state atrocity or manipulative fraudulence under this new Bill.. Who exactly ?? Name the all powerful voice of morality and reason..
23 Nov 2011, 13:12 pm
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-542:
23 Nov 2011, 13:13 pm
@Upho(ufo)-543:
Dont know to be honest but the last time a book was pushed on this site-Monty’s one a couple years back-had something to do with Keo in its production whether co writer,editor etc blah blah
But since prior to wc,the Butch back in Boks campaign along with book on site etc has been on overdrive.
23 Nov 2011, 13:14 pm
As I understand it – if you trust the government, the bill is good. If you don’t, then it’s bad. I think that some people forget that, in a democracy, government members are servants, employees of the people, paid for by our taxes to run the country the way we want it to. They are not our leaders, nor are they are rulers. If they try desperately hard to keep secrets from us, under the guise of “protecting National Security” (yeah right!), then I can’t help but feel suspicious. Our government members have made it clear, via their actions, (remember Tony Yengeni being carried to prison on the shoulders of his comrades) that they condone corruption, hence they are not to be trusted, hence we should be very worried about the bill.
23 Nov 2011, 13:14 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-548: Hehehehe, clearly we fit the mould. Lol
23 Nov 2011, 13:14 pm
@Upho(ufo)-549:
The DA governing Western Cape.
23 Nov 2011, 13:16 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-545:
Ahhhh thats more like it…Good to know you still around gunther,loud & clear.
23 Nov 2011, 13:20 pm
@Upho(ufo)-549: What is everyone really saying that ordinary south Africa must have access to all manner of documents that are sensitive to the country’s protection and advancement? This is ludicrous, every country has a classification process, why shouldn’t SA?
23 Nov 2011, 13:20 pm
@Upho(ufo)-549:
Its our turn to eat.
Nom nom nom.
Enemies of the state can be anyone who wants to take pork off the menu.
Also the Israelis.
But not the Chinese (who should really scare us) because they just have to ask us an we tell them.
They’re giving it to us with a horsecock and we don’t even know it yet.
23 Nov 2011, 13:20 pm
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-552:
thanks bud… i think it’s been quite funny that whenever any of the keo writers or keo himself have been on the blog… i have asked the question and been studiously ignored…
but i agree with you and think it must be written by keo…
23 Nov 2011, 13:21 pm
I think I just received an email from Highbury (HSM) about a Butch Book signing. Hopefully this will all be over soon.
Keo: If I buy one of his books will you email me a patch for your website that lets me block out his evil grin?
You won. I give up.
23 Nov 2011, 13:22 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-557:
why now…? why not back in 1994…
what has changed…?
23 Nov 2011, 13:24 pm
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-556:
would you like to sign it?
you can be “Concerned from Cresta”.
I will be “Outraged from Oudtshoorn”
23 Nov 2011, 13:25 pm
Ashampoo: maybe we should give the veto to our most trusted public representative, who exhibits the moral constitution to uphold our ambitions for our government and the development and safety of our country. Helen zille should have sole authority to determine as to what’s classified and what remains in the public domain! Lol
After thats done I can assure you the media and “others” certainly won’t complain at all.
23 Nov 2011, 13:25 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-557: You keep referring to the best parts of the bill, which we agree with, without realising that the issues that we have with the Bill is not the principal of the bill but the practical application of certain aspects thereof.
I don’t want the Bill removed. I want certain clauses amended to allow for the appropriate protection against abuse measures to be inserted.
23 Nov 2011, 13:26 pm
Simply post ‘classified state secrets’ (read corruption details) to Wikileaks… spread around a few international sites and then quote them as source in the public domain in any forthcoming forensic whistle-blowing articles… problem solved…
23 Nov 2011, 13:27 pm
@Taahirah(Taahirah)-404: Interesting. Thanks Taahirah. So, scope for abuse, but not the end of press freedom by any means.
23 Nov 2011, 13:27 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-558:
hehehe…
and not even using lubricant…
23 Nov 2011, 13:27 pm
In other news I see the Media have been thrwon out of the CSA probe.
Apparently Gerald Majola’s wine cellar is a matter of Nationa Security.
nom nom nom.
23 Nov 2011, 13:29 pm
‘State Secrets’ my lily white arse.. no such f’ng thing in this country.. same as their was NONE during the height of the Verwoerd – Vorster era… which ****** gevaar are we afraid of NOW !!?
The only gevaar these moguls are kak bang scared of is losing the grip of all encompassing power politics which enshrine their dictatorial ability to go forth and abuse or manipulate power without any transparency or accountability to public scrutiny – and that is all this bullshit baffles brains smoke screen legislation is all about..
Maintaining and attempting to legislate massive overwhelming power and manipulative control with scant attribution to the very freedom from corruption and power abuse that the ANC cadres and freedom fighters fought for they are now reversing their stance in order to enshrine their own longevity in power and non accountability to the public at large..
23 Nov 2011, 13:29 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-563:
The Arch would be the perfect person for the job… One of the very few people to criticize without fear or favor both pre and post 1994…
23 Nov 2011, 13:31 pm
@Upho(ufo)-561: Laws are promulgated over many years it’s a continuous component of democracy, the state security apparatus may feel that sensitive information is readily available in the public domain and this is a threat to national security and as such there’s a requirement to protect such information as is the purview of the state.
23 Nov 2011, 13:31 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-557: sensitive to WHAT.. who is the arch enemy of the people here.. which debased and destabilizing force of corruption is the arch enemy of the people of SA .. Please name this invisible force we need legislation to protect the state security and its interests from…
23 Nov 2011, 13:33 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-568: @mpundulu(mpundulu)-563:
now that gunther mentions cricket…
another person i would have absolute faith in for the role…
is Mtutuzeli Nyoka… a man of pure integrity IMO…
23 Nov 2011, 13:34 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-564: Ok now you are talking, which aspects would you like amended and what would be the new wording or meaning?
23 Nov 2011, 13:35 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-571:
c’mon mpundulu…
for 15 years no one in government or the anc even thought about such a bill…
so why now…?
23 Nov 2011, 13:37 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-563:
So there you have stated it open – as far as you and Jacob Z and Julius M are concerned Helen Zille represents public enemy No.1
So THAT is who or WHAT you are so fundamentally sh’t scared bang to open up and declare state secret information to.. Now we know that little lady from the Burbs of C.T. is your new public arch enemy No.1
She ain’t my champion if that is what you are intending insinuating .. but it seems its pretty clear from where I’m sitting this whole smoke screen ‘State Secret’ protection Bill bullshit is designed to muzzle ANY form of free opposition and governmental scrutiny.
23 Nov 2011, 13:39 pm
@Upho(ufo)-567:
The South African Government is self-lubricating.
23 Nov 2011, 13:39 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-569: Ok so for you states have no secrets, and certainly not SA, all information should be sent straight to etv to be made public? Obviously we have to abolish the all state security services, so no police, military, intelligence apparatus. Ok now I know you are troubled.
23 Nov 2011, 13:40 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-574: Read my posts up to now and the answer will be a plain as day.
Because you obviously haven’t been paying proper attention, you’ve been too busy defending the company position.
23 Nov 2011, 13:41 pm
@Upho(ufo)-570: That charlatan would find some way to monetize his position!
23 Nov 2011, 13:42 pm
I see Keo has better sense than to try and self this Butch Wankfest amongst the good citizens of Cape Town.
23 Nov 2011, 13:45 pm
@Upho(ufo)-575: So if the government did not think of a law in 1994, then you can’t bring it up now! In your country are laws allowed to be amended?
23 Nov 2011, 13:46 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-577:
ain’t that the truth…
the lubricant has a special name…
gravy..
23 Nov 2011, 13:47 pm
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-497: Very farken good point. The media are no bambi eyed innocents.
23 Nov 2011, 13:48 pm
Hawu?
Tutu monetizing his position?
The irony is achingly beautiful.
The entire ANC is monetizing it’s position,
But Tutu is a charlatan.
Keo, seriously we need to bring back the post rating system.
Because we have a hall-of-famer here.
23 Nov 2011, 13:48 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-576: Ok you got it, and I think we should abolish government as well now! Lol
23 Nov 2011, 13:50 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-571:
but WHO would be such a threat…?
who is this nouveau nemesis from whom the government must protect our interests…?
and let’s be frank here… there is nothing that needs that sort of protection… we have fallen behind the world in terms of technological advancement and innovation…
only south africa wasted billions on pebble bed technology which had been discredited by the nuclear fraternity… who would want to steal ‘our’ nuclear secrets..?
only south africa insisted that aids was not real and showering was a prophylactic.. who would want to steal our medical secrets…?
militarily we have fall en by the way side and the scientists in the denel and other parastatals… have been forced out of the country into the military of other countries… who would want to steal our military secrets…? if the government wanted to keep pour military secrets they should have kept military scientists…
i could go on but you get the gist…
so what is there that is so vital that needs protecting…?
and from whom are we protecting it…?
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-582:
in my country…? south africa is my country… africa is my continent…
of course they can amend and update laws… and even introduce new laws… no shame or blame in that…
but the reasons and needs for changes or new laws are apparent and transparent and rational people across the board would recognize the need to do so…
but when they do so against the voice of reason from many quarters… white black colored and indian… and from all sectors of society business, religious, political… then there is cause for grave concern…
23 Nov 2011, 13:52 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-585: I assure you the man is nowhere near innocent in his money grabbing schemes, an utter charlatan.
23 Nov 2011, 13:52 pm
@John Galt(John Galt)-510: “No good can come of muzzling the media.” – but some good can come from making media being more accountable as the UK has found with the phone hacking scandal. The feral pack nature of media needs to have some checks.
23 Nov 2011, 13:53 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-578:
Nope you are pretending the state has these huge high security secrets that require protection from public scrutiny (same as the Vorster – Verwoerd – Botha regime bullshitted the public that we needed protection from such Tokoloshe’s hiding under their beds at night) – and whereby you now have a state controlled discriminatory vehicle of legislation that can divert and avert ALL and ANY level of transparency away from Joe public or any voice of free scrutiny .. hence you are simply advocating State controlled manipulative governance .. absolutely no different from the power mogul abusers of the past.. you have fallen straight into the very same trap you were so vehemently anti and against in all your years of freedom politics you fought for while in exile..
23 Nov 2011, 13:55 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-535: Oh, so you DO use “Rhodesian” as an insult??! You farken apologist….
23 Nov 2011, 13:57 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-580:
that ‘charlatan’ is THE single biggest reason that freedom came to south africa…
when did he become a charlatan in your opinion…?
when he criticized the anc…?
23 Nov 2011, 13:57 pm
@Upho(ufo)-587: Laws don’t merely prepare for the present they also have to anticipate the future and provide breadth for those possible eventualities.
There being opposing views doesn’t mean that the bill is intended to facilitate nefarious activities on part of the government, in actual most people agree on most of the points but the disagreement is one clause which speaks to the public interest concern.
23 Nov 2011, 14:02 pm
Here are my two cents’ worth on the Protection of State Information Bill:
The Bill is not as bad as many people claim, and much better than the first version that was tabled last year.
It is still problematic that it does not include a “public interest” defense.
Section 14(3) provides an out to theoretically classify information that does not have anything to do with national security.
There is still a safeguard in section 32 that you can apply for access to a classified document. This requires an application to court.
The penalty (25 years in prison) for possession classified information is harsh. That being said, whistleblowers are still protected by the Protected Disclosures Act.
Ultimately the Bill depends on how it is implemented – there is scope for abuse by the State. If we trusted government enough to believe that the officials in our security agencies will always act honestly and in the national interest, then there would be no problems with the Bill. Unfortunately, that is not the case.
Another issue is that the Bill, once again, marginalises the lower income groups. The media has money and access to attorneys and can afford to utilise the section 32 safeguard to go to court to demand access to classified documents.
The poorer segments of our society can’t afford this route, so are ultimately left with no safeguard.
23 Nov 2011, 14:02 pm
@Upho(ufo)-587:
iGovernment’s top National Security threats
Helen Zille
Bleddy Agents
The French (in case they spill the beans about the arms deal and we have to give the money back)
Ze Germans (ditto)
The Poms (ditto)
Steve Hofmeyer (culturally subversive)
Patricia Lewis (ditto)
The Americans (because they are imperialists and cannot be trusted)
Shrien Dewani ( because those apes mustn’t think they can ****** around in Mzansi)
The Botswanan Government (woops)
Tiger Woods (for pretending he isn’t black)
Switzelrand and Bermuda’s banks (in case they let slip where all our money is)
White Capital (need we say more)
Israel ( they are Jewish and should not be trusted).
Joh.
it’s worse than I thought.
We got this sucker just in time.
23 Nov 2011, 14:04 pm
@Upho(ufo)-592: He is not the single biggest reason freedom came to south Africa, hehehe, certainly not! He became a charlatan well before 1994, well before. I know it’s hard to believe but we all have ambitions and potential to behave in nefarious ways, men of the cloth are definitely not immune to that no matter how short they are!
23 Nov 2011, 14:05 pm
so mpundulu…
in a village on the banks of the crocodile river downstream from pelindaba the water begins to taste strange… and begins to glow at night… and the mielies don’t produce any cobs… and the chickens start to grow extra legs and heads… and the children are still-borne… and the villagers start to get ulcers on their skins… and then die in large numbers…
you say they should have no recourse to question or investigate pelindaba because it is not in the national interests to do so…?
are you serious bud…?
well that will be the case under the secrecy bill as it stands…
please explain to me ho what is a good thing…
oh right…
it must be a good thing if the president’s nephew, the ex-presidents grandson and assorted charlatans, fraudsters, thieves and murderers don’t have to explain why the water of jozi is laced with acid..?
okay… i’m with you now…
viva secrecy bill viva…!!
23 Nov 2011, 14:07 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-593:
of course bud… IF it is done with transparency and in consultation with the people…
which this has not…
23 Nov 2011, 14:07 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-596:
tell me more.
how is he a bigger charlatan than your average ANC member?
23 Nov 2011, 14:08 pm
@Upho(ufo)-597:
Exactly – and those poor villagers would not have the ability to protect themselves because they can’t afford litigation.
23 Nov 2011, 14:11 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-599:
Mpundulu has always been terrified of men that wear dresses since an unfortunate incident involving an adam’s apple.
23 Nov 2011, 14:11 pm
@Upho(ufo)-597: Ok I’m lost, you just think something up and it has no relevance to national security, and I’m supposed to do what with it?
23 Nov 2011, 14:12 pm
@WP Till I Die(WP-Forever)-600:
ahhah.
and there is the rub.
because who is opposing your suit?
the government….with the deepest pockets of them all.
23 Nov 2011, 14:13 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-596:
i don’t deny men of the cloth are fallible.. in fact more so than the rest because of the higher standards to which they should abide…
(in a nutshell)… but who was the person traversing the planet calling for sanctions on south africa very publicly openly and in the ears of world leaders when very few in the anc had that sort of access…??
and the only reason why de klerk ‘negotiated’ was because of sanctions…
if you believe otherwise it is a sad pity…
juju and his boys say ‘whites’ want to rewrite ‘black’ history because they said one struggle song was an incitement to kill…
now you want to rewrite black history to exclude Desmond Tutu…??
eish…
23 Nov 2011, 14:14 pm
@Upho(ufo)-598: It has been done in consultation, hence the changing of the first bill!
23 Nov 2011, 14:16 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-603:
God bless taxpayers.
23 Nov 2011, 14:16 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-599: Ok, I’m not sure how one gauges the extent of charlatanism, maybe you can provide a guide. Don’t be upset about tutu my little gunt many people you look up to in the public are not what they seem.
23 Nov 2011, 14:19 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-602:
well mpundulu…
i keep asking you what specifically do we have to protect… what information…?
you steadfastly refuse to give me ANY examples…
so i offered some ‘examples’ which in the rest of the world (as you keep insisting that if the rest of the world can have state secrets, why not south africa…) well in the rest of the world state secrets are typically nuclear and military technology and medical advancements because of the billions made by new drugs, cures etc…
so if you think nuclear, military andy medical technology are not relevant in the south african context…
please… i ask again… give me specific examples of what information or technology YOU would consider need protecting by secrecy so that it doesn’t fall into the hands of ‘bleddy agents’..!!
23 Nov 2011, 14:20 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-607: You care to expand on that?
As opposed to just slating him, can we have a bit of proof?
With “him” I refer to the Arch, not Gunther.
23 Nov 2011, 14:21 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-605: i see one of the main points of the Bill you conviniently failed to mention was this:
any government official who classifies information NOT considered as being valuable to the state faces up to 3 years in jail.
now tell me, if the info has been shelved, who is to determine if it is of interest to the state, Min of State Security?
23 Nov 2011, 14:21 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-605:
that was consultation… ???
okay…
that was transparent…???
okay…
23 Nov 2011, 14:23 pm
mpundulu…
have you met and/or held any discussions with Tutu..?
23 Nov 2011, 14:25 pm
@Upho(ufo)-604: A number of things, when tutu was enthroned as archbishop in the 80′s, he was a person of special interest with the US government to the extent to which an African American human rights lawyer in DC had to speak to George Bush snr at the time he was the director of the CIA to lift the notification of tutu, tutu did not have access to presidents, whoever told you that is pulling your string, in tutu’s trips to the states, he mostly dealt with church leaders and non profit organizations, he did interact with the UN but not in an official capacity to effect sanctions on SA. Yes he cries a lot but he did not provide us with freedom.
The primary reason to de klerk’s negotiating with the anc was not owing to a crying archbishop but rather as a consequence of economic constraints, international pressure, and increasing state insecurity. Furthermore, the negotiations with the nats started in the early 80′s. You give tutu too much.
23 Nov 2011, 14:28 pm
@Taahirah(Taahirah)-609:
Indeed.
I am a well know charlatan.
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-607:
now now let’s not be patronising.
I don’t look up to anybody.
I find it hilarious that somebody who has spent the morning defending a corrupt and nefarious regime then refers to Tuts as a “monetizing charlatan”
the irony is exquisite.
So no just one example will do.
rather than heresay on the interweb.
anfd then you can tell who was consulted on the bill and in what way.
Then you can continue at the trough with my blessing.
23 Nov 2011, 14:33 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-613:
and you give him no credit at all… shame on you…
who was THE loudest voice calling for sanctions… it was tutu… and if you think he didn’t meet world leaders you’re ill-informed and/or naive… or have an agenda against the man…
did you know that mandela and the anc were still classified as a ‘terrorists’ by the us government as recently as 2007? shocking but true… but that didn’t stop mandela or any of the other leaders having access to world leaders either…
sheesh man…
please answer the question posted by someone above…
give us specific examples of tutu’s charlatanism… or his dishonesty… or his fraudulence, deceit and deception…??
c’mon bud…
put up or shut up…
23 Nov 2011, 14:33 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-613: Negotiations started in ’86 by Mandela without the knowledge of the ANC leadership. Strike 1.
Strike 2. Tutu won the Nobel Peace Prize for his anti-apartheid leadership
Yes, a combination of various factors led to the downfall of the Apartheid regime and it is incorrect to say Tutu was the main reason Apartheid collapsed (what about Tambo etc). However, to degenerate Tutu is to commit the opposite error and to call him a charlatan says more about you than it does about him.
23 Nov 2011, 14:34 pm
@Taahirah(Taahirah)-609: I can’t give you specifics as it would reveal my identity, and though tutu cries a lot he still has a lot influence in the party, but let me say I’ve known him for most of my life.
23 Nov 2011, 14:36 pm
612.Upho:
23 Nov 2011, 14:23 pm
mpundulu… have you ever met and/or held any discussions with Tutu..?
ever…?
23 Nov 2011, 14:36 pm
@Michael(mikeybrass)-616: Even Mandela admits they were not negotiations but merely an interaction not superseding any negotiation efforts by the anc.
23 Nov 2011, 14:36 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-591:
what? insult? me? 
23 Nov 2011, 14:37 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-617: He does? Hmmmm.
As for revealing your identity: Surely you’d not be the only individual privy to the information?
23 Nov 2011, 14:39 pm
@Upho(ufo)-618: Many dinners, lunches in bishops court over a number of years, we’d also meet on occasion in the states when I was studying there, whenever, he’d visit the north east. We still met whilst he’s archbishop emeritus, so I know him well.
23 Nov 2011, 14:40 pm
@Michael(mikeybrass)-616:
michael… what you say is true… but i was giving a précis version on a blog… why i say he is the main reason is that OT was classified as a terrorist and could not travel as freely around the world (or to the states) as could tutu…
but i am not diminishing OTs contribution or leadership at all… or other leaders… simply pointing out the practicalities of the immense public platform that tutu had… and used… to ratchet up the pressure…
23 Nov 2011, 14:42 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-617:
not good enough pundie.
give us ONE example.
if he is such a charlatan their should be so many no?
oink oink.
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-619:
what did they interact about?
the weather?
hint interaction = informal negotiaitons.
you are so full of it.
23 Nov 2011, 14:46 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-622:
okay so you know him well… and yet you doubt his sincerity and credentials…??
i too have met him on several occasions and found him to be sincere and honest…
last question… over all these meetings and cosy dinners… how many times have you… to his face… called him a
“charlatan who would find some way to monetize his position!”
or did you behave like a charlatan and sycophantically enjoy his largesse and company without referring to him as a charlatan…??
23 Nov 2011, 14:49 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-624: I can’t you an example or examples as they are too specific. The interaction between Mandela and the nats was effectively one of the nats giving Mandela the terms of his conditional release not a negotiation!
23 Nov 2011, 14:54 pm
@Upho(ufo)-625: My enjoying his largesse, without hoisting my own petard I come from money, and tutu acquired his largesse after I had mine for quite sometime. Do you go around providing your true feelings to everyone you engage with really, doesn’t seem like a sustainable model. Besides I have known for many years about tutu, he’s probably aware that I know, and besides I meet many people across the world who have done things that are not inspiring but are still a good laugh!
23 Nov 2011, 14:57 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-619: Read Mandela’s Conservations with Myself. He says outright they were negotiations to lay the groundwork for full negotiations. Anyways, you conveniently ignored my correction that such discussions did not start in the early 1980s. They started in the mid-1980s. It’s hard to take you seriously when you get such simple facts wrong.
23 Nov 2011, 14:59 pm
@Upho(ufo)-623: Tutu and Tambo worked well together towards the ultimate goal.
23 Nov 2011, 14:59 pm
@Upho(ufo)-623: That’s also inaccurate, with mdm, udf, etc etc., coupled with the churches group that increased pressure in SA not tutu alone. OR in exile through Thabo was incredibly effective in running the political global wing of the anc and the military wing in Africa. OR played a pivotal role to galvanize state support for sanctions to be effected.
23 Nov 2011, 15:01 pm
@Upho(ufo)-623: Don’t forget Tambo addressing the UN.
I think we’ll agree that many figures and factors worked together
23 Nov 2011, 15:03 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-626: Ok now I know you’ve lost it.
23 Nov 2011, 15:03 pm
@Michael(mikeybrass)-628: Ok they started in the mid 80′s and not the early 80′s, comfortable now? Actually impossible to take you seriously at all.
23 Nov 2011, 15:06 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-633: Well done. You passed the re-take test of the one question History 101 paper.
23 Nov 2011, 15:07 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-627:
of course these is no need to insult people to their faces… but it is surprising (not) that feeling as strongly as you do… and as erudite as you are… you never once thought of questioning him about charlatanismship….???
so who is the real charlatan then…?
a nobel peace prize winner respected by just about everyone… (except mpundulu)
or a man who acknowledges he is not honest with those whom he socializes…?
hmmm… let me think…?
personally i will not socialize with people i do not respect or believe are charlatans or dishonest… i will certainly not have dinners with them… not for business, not for politics, not for personal interests whatsoever…
sure we are all forced to do business with people we don’t like… but that is different…
but i will not do business with someone i feel is dishonest… and certainly not with someone i know is dishonest…
23 Nov 2011, 15:11 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-630:
c’mon bud…
you mean to tell me that you honestly believe any of those organizations had the international public platform of tutu…
maybe in south africa we don’t respect our tall poppies… but in the rest of the world… the real world… a nobel peace prize is a very big deal and opens up doors and ears that would otherwise be shut…
sheesh… you are letting your loathing of the man get in the way of the facts…
23 Nov 2011, 15:14 pm
@Michael(mikeybrass)-631:
yes… of course michael… as i said earlier.. i was not trying to denigrate or diminish the role played by anyone else…
just referring to the incredible platform enjoyed and used by tutu to spread the message…. for the struggle…
to deny his role (not you… but mpundulu) is simply not being honest IMO…
23 Nov 2011, 15:18 pm
okay… i give up…
outta here
been interesting…
cheers
23 Nov 2011, 15:22 pm
@Upho(ufo)-635:
to be fair the arch runs a very good table.
he serves a particularly fine Amontillado.
Pundie didn’t have a go at the Arch out of a sense of Noblesse Oblige.
He had his money before Tuts charlataned his (you have to wonder how old he is
).
Punds did you make your own money or are you the son of a chief?
23 Nov 2011, 15:32 pm
I met this person this morning that knows a bit of the rugby ‘ royalty’ in SA.
Asked this person who is necy Bok coach?
Answered witout a second of hesitation…..Mallet….
Fark me ….hope it is true
23 Nov 2011, 15:40 pm
@grant10(grant10)-640: Only problem is Mallett said he is taking a break from coaching jobs until June.
23 Nov 2011, 15:41 pm
@grant10(grant10)-640: SARU should never have fired Nick to begin with.
23 Nov 2011, 15:41 pm
@Upho(ufo)-635: If that’s your perspective, that you won’t deal with dishonest people, cheats, and liars then in my line of business you’d be a pauper as the only people you could deal with are new born babies! I don’t dislike tutu, he’s got an incredible sense of humor and loves his good quality scotch, however, with that said he’s a charlatan and I know for a fact, I say this without passion nor prejudice, I know people have to get ahead and they do what they can, it’s life.
23 Nov 2011, 15:42 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-639: Family money.
23 Nov 2011, 15:43 pm
@Upho(ufo)-637: I guess only charlatans win the Nobel Peace Prize. LOL
23 Nov 2011, 15:46 pm
@Upho(ufo)-636: To be fair to tutu I believe like a lot of people he did what he could, he’s done a lot of good work, I’m not taking that away from him at all. I just disagree that he was pivotal to SA achieving freedom.
23 Nov 2011, 15:46 pm
@Michael(mikeybrass)-641: yip….my money still on AC……
now there is a farken charlatan
23 Nov 2011, 15:47 pm
@Michael(mikeybrass)-645: Being a charlatan does not mean you can’t do good things too!
23 Nov 2011, 15:50 pm
mallet
‘mitchell
B Venter
all the rest are charlatans
23 Nov 2011, 15:51 pm
plod
pdv
spies
all charlatans
23 Nov 2011, 15:51 pm
@grant10(grant10)-649: Don’t rule out PdV!
23 Nov 2011, 15:53 pm
bissy
F Hougaard
Not charlatans
23 Nov 2011, 15:54 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-651: please no….
Tutu will do a better job……
23 Nov 2011, 15:55 pm
Fat Boys Club
Charlatans I tell you
23 Nov 2011, 15:55 pm
proteas
bafana bafana
charlatans
23 Nov 2011, 15:57 pm
@grant10(grant10)-653: At least we can agree on one thing, a tutu-PdV coaching ticket would if anything be bloody funny with ample tears.
23 Nov 2011, 16:00 pm
When there is just a very small sniff of their luxury and the lifestyle it affords being threatened, then the derelicts/social misfits are like a mad, rabid swarm of vultures hovering over a morsel of carrion. Madness reigns!
It all just reeks of false probes of newfound concerns for the “poor villagers”, the lower echelons of society or the average man in the street or whatever other garbage they come up with.
Corruption and even its attempts to secretively cover it up(even potentially here) is nothing new to Africa south of the Limpopo. Have you forgotten your Jimmy Kruger or Connie Mulder or Eschel Rhoodie? Have you forgotten the myriad of Swiss and other accounts of deceit?
The only difference then as against now(potentially) is that their milk and honey was not threatened then and as long as they benefitted they did not care as they now seemingly do.
What better a sight can one hope for than misfits on Keo tearing each other apart at the joints and seams and across all hues such that even ‘Roebucked’ Gunt(‘C’ for G) stands side by side with A Sham Poopol as his brother in farty mischief.
I certainly will be enjoying myself immensely in less than 72 hrs. time amongst this sick lot, except that here it is easier as they are overconcentrated and stupidly deceitful and dishonest.
What a way to close off these final days of the last year of a highly successful WC cycle.
23 Nov 2011, 16:01 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-656: LOL
Yes….
Zille / Mallet combo would be fascinating too……
23 Nov 2011, 16:02 pm
@ET.(ET.)-657: Hi ET….You have been scarce…what the devil you been up to young man?
23 Nov 2011, 16:08 pm
@Grant. Is Meyer a charlatan just because of Spies as captain?
23 Nov 2011, 16:14 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-656: Mpundulu, you sound like the oke who penned this in January 2005
Those described as “icons” by the group categorised by Mteto Nyati as “the white elite” are black leaders who are seen by this “elite” as being those most sensitive and sympathetic to these “white fears”, regardless of the truth or otherwise of this determination.
That sensitivity is represented as the sustained communication by the “icons” of messages considered as very reassuring by “the white elite”, which harbours deep-seated fears that white South Africa continues to be threatened by a “swart gevaar” (“black danger”).
As compared to patriots such as the ANC Secretary General Kgalema Motlanthe, “the white elite” sees Archbishop Tutu as one of these “reassuring” black leaders, a guarantor of white safety and security from the “swart gevaar”, regardless of how he sees his role in democratic South Africa.
His words and actions are seen as constituting the interventions required to banish the burdensome “white fears”. For this reason, certainly the white section of the “elite” accords the Archbishop an “iconic” status.
Let us now return to the matter of the “yap-dog”, Kgalema Motlanthe. The Secretary General of our movement, Kgalema Motlanthe, belongs among the outstanding cadres of our movement and people who volunteered to take up arms as members of Umkhonto we Sizwe, to fight for our liberation, ready to sacrifice their lives. After his capture, he spent 11 years in jail, with 10 of these on Robben Island as a prisoner of the apartheid regime.
After his release, he served as an organiser and later the elected General Secretary of the National Union of Mineworkers (NUM), and one of the most respected leaders of our trade union ally, COSATU.
He was one of the principal builders of our movement after its unbanning in 1990, after 30 years of illegality. Eight years ago, in 1997, he was unanimously elected by the 50th National Conference of our movement as our Secretary General. He enjoyed the same vote of confidence at our 2002 51st National Conference held in Stellenbosch.
But because he dared to differ with an icon, the “elite” has decided that the standing and worth of this outstanding fighter for our liberation and democratic order, as well as other comrades who sacrificed for our freedom, have to be reduced and diminished, so that together they are seen as being nothing more than “yap-dogs who would have to jump up in order to bite (the Archbishop’s) ankles”.
This is the price that critics of the views of an icon have to pay for disagreeing with an eminent personality described as “a moral icon”, “a saint”, “an icon of our struggle”, “one of the world’s most eminent personalities and moral guardians”, a religious leader of a special “pedigree”, a “giant renowned (internationally) for his moral conscience and bravery”, “the conscience of our nation”.
The same newspaper that labelled some of those who sacrificed everything for our liberation as “yap-dogs”, described the Archbishop as, “The man who single-handedly stopped a mob of would-be necklacers in Duduza in the 1980s, and stood his ground against the likes of PW Botha…”
We know what happened “in Duduza in the 1980s”. We know who the people were who are described as “a mob”, and what the apartheid regime did to them. We know that it was the late Oliver Tambo, President of the ANC, who intervened and stopped the “necklacing” originally started by agents of the apartheid regime.
We know what happened to brave combatants for our liberation who, like the Archbishop, “stood (their) ground against the likes of PW Botha”, such as Joe Gqabi, member and leader of the ANC.
Whatever the realities of this history, the central point is that in its struggle to set the national agenda, strategically the “elite” has to elevate those it considers as icons to a status of “the untouchables”, and reduce its opponents to the contemptible level of “yap-dogs”. This is one of the central features of the sociology of the public discourse in our democracy.
We must therefore expect that the phenomenon of the “icon” will continue to be one of the distinguishing features of our public discourse. These icons will be different individuals, who will be used to the extent that they fit into the different elements of the strategy and tactics of the “elite”. We must also expect that new ones will emerge to respond to changing circumstances and objectives.
But what will be common to all of them will be that the “elite” will judge their views and actions as being consistent with its agenda. In return, the “elite” will do everything it can to promote their iconic status as “the untouchables”.
Helen Zille of the DA captured and conveyed this message when she said: “It is a very poor reflection on the post-apartheid government that it is using exactly the same tactics in an attempt to silence (the Archbishop). No government or President should seek to silence, by threats or insults, voices that are internationally recognised as the conscience of our nation.”
The obvious and self-evident truth is that nobody had done anything to silence the Archbishop, who, among other things, denounced ANC elected public representatives as cowardly mercenaries. Rather, our President had welcomed the Archbishop’s call for robust debate with warm and open appreciation, and joined the public debate the Archbishop Emeritus had deliberately started.
In reality, what Zille was saying was that, in keeping with the rules that the “elite” seeks to set for the public discourse in democratic South Africa, such robust debate must exclude the robust challenge of the views of anybody considered by this “elite” as an icon
23 Nov 2011, 16:17 pm
@Michael(mikeybrass)-628:
Yes you certainly have the title correct here, ” Read Mandela’s Conservations with Myself ” as they were most obviously not CONVERSATIONS.
Thus Mpundu’s categorisation of those not being negotiations stands tall. In fact, I would say that Afrikaaner terms were etched in stone firmly then.
From those TB scare days forward Mandela was often acting delusionally already and made many errors of judgement including the rugby one and its seeming importance to a non-racial society. Every error translated into lost ground for the wretched of the earth of Southern Africa.
23 Nov 2011, 16:17 pm
@ET.(ET.)-657: You meeting up with any of the bloggers?
And no.
Im not offering.
23 Nov 2011, 16:19 pm
@Michael(mikeybrass)-660: absolute without any doubt whatsoever
charlatan
23 Nov 2011, 16:21 pm
@grant10(grant10)-658: Can you imagine how much straight there’d be between those two. Both are very single minded, it’d be a fiasco.
23 Nov 2011, 16:23 pm
Do you people not work??? Pseudo (as shampooskopwhateverhisname would have it) wannabe intellects
No we lunch with the Arch every ****** second day….
Thank God some plebs have arrived and sanity can prevail
Yissus my brain is scrambled trying to follow that conversation.
23 Nov 2011, 16:24 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-665: I would give it 15 minutes
then first skirmish…..
Zille 6
Mallet 0
23 Nov 2011, 16:24 pm
@grant10(grant10)-659:
Ever since I threw up my hands in disgust when you deliberately confused my “anti-racist” approach with your “anti-white” tag. Not my fault if too many of the racist(as you witness here today) are from the former franchised grouping.
Too much garbage here since the WC and I have been too busy clearing my research desk for an absence where I will be hitting the streets of the Eastern and Western Capes soon.
23 Nov 2011, 16:27 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-661: Spot on! A charlatan.
23 Nov 2011, 16:28 pm
@ET.(ET.)-662: Interesting approach, lol. There are those who’d agree with you.
23 Nov 2011, 16:28 pm
The Eastern amd Western Capes hold their collective breaths….
23 Nov 2011, 16:29 pm
@Taahirah(Taahirah)-663:
My constitution can easily withstand your “cyanide”. Besides good ideas live on even long after the flesh turns to carrion.
A non-racial society is a noble idea. Dispute that if you have guts.
23 Nov 2011, 16:31 pm
@Bod(bod)-666: Someone asked if I actually knew the arch and not just plucking an idea out of the air, so I informed him yes, I do indeed know rather well actually.
23 Nov 2011, 16:31 pm
@ET.(ET.)-672: Thats a “no” then?
23 Nov 2011, 16:32 pm
@Bod(bod)-666: you bloody charlatan
23 Nov 2011, 16:33 pm
@ET.(ET.)-672: i agree with you
23 Nov 2011, 16:33 pm
@ET.(ET.)-662: Mandela rejected the offer by the Nats and laid the groundwork for future talks.
Anything else distorts the historical record.
23 Nov 2011, 16:34 pm
@Bod(bod)-671:
More importantly Ravensmead is waiting to excommunicate a lost soul. So lost that it looks for the “Cape Spanish” in the Plains of Spain where it mostly rains.
23 Nov 2011, 16:35 pm
@ET.(ET.)-668: enjoy your visit…..
23 Nov 2011, 16:36 pm
@grant10(grant10)-664: Careful or Meyer will be the next coach. You’ll have Morne and Derick as flyhalves, Spies at 8, Zane at fullback, Oliver at 12 and be wishing for the days of PdV
23 Nov 2011, 16:36 pm
@ET.(ET.)-672: “A non-racial society is a noble idea. Dispute that if you have guts.”
Could not agree more.
23 Nov 2011, 16:37 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-673:
I am trying to figure this one out.
You support the All Blacks…..
You lunch with the Arch regularly…..
You cant give away your identity on this site….
Nah, cant be. Trevor Manual actually works during the day and is a kak multi-tasker. I dunno Mpunds… you have me confused
23 Nov 2011, 16:37 pm
@Taahirah(Taahirah)-674:
The most important idea in that post resides in the last paragraph but your superficiality does not afford you to perceive that.
‘Jy bly net ‘n nuuskierige apie.’
23 Nov 2011, 16:37 pm
@grant10(grant10)-676: Well.
Really.
Was anyone here ever gonna say: “I strongly disagree, racial segregation is the only way forward. Good fences build good neighbours”, or anything similar?
23 Nov 2011, 16:39 pm
@Michael(mikeybrass)-680: with pdv we may have ythe same
23 Nov 2011, 16:40 pm
@grant10(grant10)-685: Not even PdV is mad enough to appoint Spies as captain, surely.
23 Nov 2011, 16:40 pm
@Taahirah(Taahirah)-684: i hope not…..
23 Nov 2011, 16:40 pm
@ET.(ET.)-683: Was gonna call you on the ‘agie’ vs ‘apie’ but realised you had ample wiggle room there.
Ill get the next one.
23 Nov 2011, 16:41 pm
@Michael(mikeybrass)-686: he said he might!
23 Nov 2011, 16:41 pm
@ET.(ET.)-678:
Very impressive indeed
But you have the wrong ‘Mead
So please do heed
23 Nov 2011, 16:41 pm
@Michael(mikeybrass)-677:
My play is on the wrong word you used in the title of the book.
Mandela has his obvious notions and millions others too have theirs, even about his notions.
From his speech in mitigation of sentence in the 60s the man suffered and changed much.
23 Nov 2011, 16:42 pm
@Taahirah(Taahirah)-688:
Blaas doppies.
23 Nov 2011, 16:43 pm
@grant10(grant10)-675:
What is a effing Charlatan???
My head hurts…
23 Nov 2011, 16:44 pm
@ET.(ET.)-692: I never quite understood that one.
Care to explain its origin?
23 Nov 2011, 16:44 pm
@Bod(bod)-690:
Who cares, as long as it compromises you in some way and shuts you up?
23 Nov 2011, 16:47 pm
@Michael(mikeybrass)-677: The nats were talking to Mandela and the anc contemporaneously, they were hedging their bets.
23 Nov 2011, 16:47 pm
@Bod(bod)-693: no farken idea
23 Nov 2011, 16:49 pm
@ET.(ET.)-691: Oops. Down with a stomach viral infection and didn’t proof-read.
23 Nov 2011, 16:50 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-696: Convos with the ANC-in-exile came post the first discussions with Mandela. He broke the ice.
23 Nov 2011, 16:50 pm
@ET.(ET.)-695:
Ok… so you didnt get it?
Just when I thought we were buddies you go and stuff it all up.
I am gutted…
23 Nov 2011, 16:51 pm
@grant10(grant10)-689: Anyone but Spies as captain! No wait, even I would take Spies ahead of Shampoo.
23 Nov 2011, 16:52 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-670:
I admire your patience and fortitude to take it to these ‘yobos’ as they mostly are culturally dishonest and have no real interest in seeking TRUTH.
They come at you with a wolf-pack mentality and hurl one opportunistic, emotional rock after another but nothing hits because it is all groundless and they, in turn, have little or no moral standing.
23 Nov 2011, 16:52 pm
@Bod(bod)-682: Yes, AB supporter, I know the arch, my family was not in exile, politically in the old days we supported black conscious movement, and I don’t work in the presidency but I am in finance, and I’ll have you know I’m partners with white and black guys in my fund.
23 Nov 2011, 16:58 pm
@grant10(grant10)-697:
I need to bugger off for a bottle of Muscatel as I am shattered.
I have made two enemies in two days on this site. This ET oke and ol Shampoowhatever (Joel to his family.
Just when every one was telling me what swell guys they are…
23 Nov 2011, 16:59 pm
@Michael(mikeybrass)-699: I’ll concede that Mandela was in talks with the apartheid government whilst at robben island, to the extent that govan mbeki accused him of betraying the movement and there was a group led by mbeki who planned the killing of Mandela, this was to be done by terror lekota. Owing to this and the nats wanting to isolate Mandela, he was moved to polls moor and then to a home at victor verster. The legitimate talks were with the anc in exile.
23 Nov 2011, 17:01 pm
@Michael(mikeybrass)-698:
That’s fine, especially since it afforded me an outlet for a different and smart response.
23 Nov 2011, 17:03 pm
@ET.(ET.)-702: Don’t be so hard on them, soon they’ll realize they believe in a “specialized” truth, it’ll dawn on them at some point.
23 Nov 2011, 17:04 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-705: Wrong again. Mandela was transferred to Pollsmoor in 1982 from where he wrote to Kobie Coetzee in ’85 to initiate the first talks.
What you said is fantasy.
Go back to high school and then history 101 at uni.
23 Nov 2011, 17:04 pm
@Bod(bod)-700:
Here it is always and clearly a case of “everyman for himself and the devil takes the hindmost”.
What other “Mead” is there in the Cape?
23 Nov 2011, 17:05 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-707: Hard historical facts are the bane in your corrective treatment.
23 Nov 2011, 17:06 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-703:
No sweat Mpundulu.
You have your views and mine might differ a bit, but at least I see you try and argue in a dignified manner and dont resort to insult.
There are three things though:
1 Never take this site too seriously, its actually fun if you can elevate yourself above the trash
2 Please dont play the black/white thang with me… I dont give a rats ***
3 We HAVE to do something about your rugby allegiance!! I promise to work on you
23 Nov 2011, 17:06 pm
@ET.(ET.)-706: Thanks for the correction.
Anyways, logging off before I throw up over my computer screen. And on that delightfully charming note…
23 Nov 2011, 17:08 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-707:
Fortunately I will dare to outlive all of them and view the morality of the offspring two generations from now.
23 Nov 2011, 17:10 pm
@Michael(mikeybrass)-712:
Better to deal with the illness. Bedrest will always be helpful.
Also off now.
23 Nov 2011, 17:10 pm
@ET.(ET.)-709:
Think, man, think…… that last bastion of leafy white colonialism that exists in the Boerewors curtain
23 Nov 2011, 17:11 pm
@Michael(mikeybrass)-701: nah…old shampoo a wily old fox….would vloek the IRB in there moer
23 Nov 2011, 17:14 pm
@grant10(grant10)-716:
Joel that is…
23 Nov 2011, 17:17 pm
@Bod(bod)-717: on a serious note I have met Skoppie often…name is not Joel my man
23 Nov 2011, 17:19 pm
@Bod(bod)-715:
Edgemead it has to be then and not far from the Caltex refinery. There where the water stains all the walls.
23 Nov 2011, 17:20 pm
@grant10(grant10)-718:
Ok…. my mistake.
Fck. I thought I had him
23 Nov 2011, 17:22 pm
@ET.(ET.)-719:
Your geography is not too shabby, but your chemistry remains kak
23 Nov 2011, 17:33 pm
@grant10(grant10)-718:
In the early days of this site, the Cape Town bunch used to meet quite regularly at the Firemans and we even did a game or two at Newlands. The regulars included the likes of Dawn, katman, buckt, ruck, harrythebeachwalker, jinx, myself, wptid and I few others I now forget.
They were good sessions. I reckon it would be interesting to rekindle that with the new bunch of Cape Townians out there. Imagine katman, skop and ET having a pint around a table at the Firemans…
23 Nov 2011, 17:34 pm
@Bod(bod)-722:
Now, now.
Let’s not throw the cat amongst the pigeons…
23 Nov 2011, 17:35 pm
@Bod(bod)-722:
But it would be fun to see katman and Gunther sharing a pint (and some stories).
23 Nov 2011, 17:44 pm
@Bod(bod)-721:
OK let me help you with the chemistry then as you struggle so often with the rain in Spain falling mostly on the Plain.
I saw, after the fact some day, that you were struggling with cricket on vipbox.tv
That same day I can tell you it was working just fine. But I will give you a better and ALL cricket site as follows:
http://www.allcric.com
There are up to 10 channels and thus more than one game can be offered at the same time.
Right now you can watch the SL – Pak game live. I have just seen the highlights of the 2nd day’s play India -W.I.
http://www.vipbox.tv does not give all the cricket all the time but is the best for sport in general esp. soccer and rugby.
Another site similar to vip is the Aussie site http://www.Hitsport.Net
You should now have no sporting problems for a good while as long as you have adequate speed available.
Today your Barca will lose to Zlatan Ibrah and he will score two goals.
23 Nov 2011, 17:48 pm
Pak. 25/1 chasing 219 for the win.
23 Nov 2011, 17:53 pm
@ET.(ET.)-725:
Bod, use this for the Aussie site given earlier:
http://www.hitsports.net/ as it will be more direct and less roundabout.
23 Nov 2011, 18:12 pm
@Bod(bod)-722: count me in….1 st round on me…
I have had the pleasure of meeting quite a few of the okes….Dawn…WPTID….Skop….robzim….ufo….katman….jinx…..and justrugby my mate…..all good okes in the flesh.
also Rossoneri and Transfoemation from PE….
23 Nov 2011, 18:14 pm
and Carol from the Cotswolds
23 Nov 2011, 18:14 pm
Hell will freeze over first
23 Nov 2011, 18:18 pm
and tassies of course….and slappes as well….who else Dawn?
23 Nov 2011, 18:24 pm
I foresee a fistfight
23 Nov 2011, 18:46 pm
@ET.(ET.)-725:
So I do have a guardian angel after all in the shape of an extra terrestial….. why the f.uck were you so quite when I was battling with the cricket???
Thank you.
By the way, Barcelona aint my team…… Levante and the mighty Chelsea certainly are.
23 Nov 2011, 18:47 pm
@grant10(grant10)-728:
Slappes… that was the other one!
23 Nov 2011, 18:52 pm
@WP Till I Die(WP-Forever)-724:
mm…mm. Best myself and Guntertjie first.
I would love to deliver him an almighty snotklap before I tuck into my first sip of Sauvignon Blanc.
Then we could all be friends
23 Nov 2011, 18:58 pm
gunther is the oke that arrives in the custom sprayed pink Picato with the Village people belting out ‘ its raining men’ on his custom made CD
23 Nov 2011, 18:59 pm
picanto
23 Nov 2011, 19:00 pm
“There was a plot to kill mandela led by mbeki”
What history have I lived through?
Must be the wrong one.
23 Nov 2011, 19:05 pm
Now now grantie.
You know gunther rocks a bavarian bomber.
5 series nogal.
23 Nov 2011, 19:08 pm
@Bod(bod)-733:
I have been far too busy at work clearing up much before I leave for S.A. coming Fri. so gave little attention to this site after the RWC. Some nights late(US time) I would just check a few threads and not respond to any and was not keeping up with the Aussie-SA tests until this Mon. when the Aussies wrapped it up.
Barca was just a shot in the dark and your Chealsea are nowhere near mighty these days.
I just want Zlatan to score today since Barca made it impossible for him to play for Real when he had to choose Inter in stead.
Now you will have too much cricket to keep you busy. Tonight at 11pm I will watch the start of the 3rd day’s play of India-W.I.
For the cricket it will always be the Indian site(allcric) then the other two.
For everything else it should be vip and if there are problems then check hitsport.
I will be absent for a long while from Friday so get your questions in now and before I leave.
23 Nov 2011, 19:28 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-739: wow…your boyfriend must love it
23 Nov 2011, 19:43 pm
@grant10(grant10)-741:
Classy.
I expect nothing less from you.
23 Nov 2011, 20:05 pm
And you two want to have drinks?
23 Nov 2011, 20:19 pm
@Gunther, pink Picanto eh? Farken hilarious. Bring on Firemans mates…
23 Nov 2011, 20:24 pm
gunther showing his sensitive side…..hilarious…
CalledJustrugby Justbuggery now gets all sensitive about his car and music choice?
Shampies
23 Nov 2011, 20:25 pm
if it wasn’t for that plonker toby titus i’d be watching saracens vs biarritz come @ cpt stadium come january! damnit!
23 Nov 2011, 20:27 pm
@Grant, lmfao! Tis the season of sillyness, parties and pink picantos filled with hairy men?
23 Nov 2011, 20:28 pm
@grant10(grant10)-640: 100% big rumour that has more than an element of truth… Mallet was so up for the England job but then suddenly wanted to go back to SA to be with family…
There is only one job for Mallet that would supersede the England job. The Boks. I reckon that Rugby royalty you spoke to is telling the truth.
Next Bok coach is Mallet. I am about 70% sure of this.
23 Nov 2011, 20:29 pm
@Michael(mikeybrass)-699: Yes but these were in isolation of the party and he was under duress, therefore not legitimate.
23 Nov 2011, 20:30 pm
@Transie, yip Tobie se m…
23 Nov 2011, 20:34 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-703: A “fund” now…lol… I though you used to work for “Baine” with an “e” before becoming a World Bank lackey… Last time I checked the World Bank does not have partners… neither does the IFC… Some porkies here cuzzie
23 Nov 2011, 20:35 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-748:
And Mallett said he was taking a break from coaching until June 2012.
Oh wait, when do the poms tour in this neck of the woods?
Old Nick might just be indulging in a bit of poker-play. The guessing games will continue.
23 Nov 2011, 20:37 pm
just check how these two faced commie cowardly comrades in arms creep around like the second grade cowardly creeps they are….
Now they wanna defame and denigrate the very two icons that led these same bewildered snot nosed half bred morons out the morass of their deficient heritage and who stink to high heaven in their cowardly hypocrisy while they brown nose their way around the exiled colonialist corridors of the founding fathers of Philadelphia…
If were not for Mandela and Tutu these same half bred warriors of deceit would still be moseying around the back streets of Ravensmead or Bishops Lavis looking for a way to get out the ghetto .. but these pseudy warlords for ‘truth’ are scurrying around like the decrepit lily livered cowardly arsecreep scum they are seeking to defame and discredit the VERY two people who saved their half bred coconut coolyarse creeping backsides from a life of insignificance and nonentity..
23 Nov 2011, 20:38 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-746:
I’m just as pi ssed off. Was also hoping to get to that game.
Might have to see what all this firemans kakpraat is all about.
23 Nov 2011, 20:52 pm
@IAAS(I am a stormer)-752: Yup, poker play is the word but I reckon this hand has been dealt and chips about to be cashed in.
23 Nov 2011, 20:55 pm
@mpundulu(mpundulu)-705:
better be careful now this could be construed as inner circle ‘state secrets’ getting defamatory and derogatorily exposed out here on a public forum rugby blog… which put in incorrect context could expose one for libelous intent and anti party blasphemy… who in their right mind would dare to brand the arch icon of this hard fought democracy as a traitor?… and you yourself could even find yourself being the proud resident of a two by four meter lock up facility for no other crime or reason but for stating some innocuous so called ‘truths’ in the vain aim of offering a warped self righteous opinion…
23 Nov 2011, 20:58 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-748: I hinted at this distinct possibility about a week or more ago.. Also suspected it was Mallet they been secretly holding out for.. and could have been negotiated some time back already before he kicked the England job opportunity for six
23 Nov 2011, 21:00 pm
@IAAS(I am a stormer)-754: firemans is cool, just an old pub but it’s the company that is interesting… and yeah apparently they also make delectable oven-baked pizzas
i watched the Force demolish the Bulls there earlier this year.
23 Nov 2011, 21:01 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-755:
Just hope it was old Nick sitting with the biggest pile cashing in. That guy is no fool.
23 Nov 2011, 21:03 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-758:
will be in ct from the 12th jan. And you?
23 Nov 2011, 21:06 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-757:
To me that would be first prize.
23 Nov 2011, 21:07 pm
I never been to Firemans.. just top settle any untoward myths doing the rounds here.. unless its that old little pub halfway up Hope Street of Roeland Street in olde world Gardens of Cape Town which I been to solo alone once to watch the Bulls – Sharks final which got buzzed out by a swarm of bees… whenever it was…
23 Nov 2011, 21:13 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-757: Yup, for once you may be off your little old fence and right for a change.
23 Nov 2011, 21:14 pm
@IAAS(I am a stormer)-759: Fark, I hope so. Will almost be too good to be true.
23 Nov 2011, 21:15 pm
@IAAS(I am a stormer)-761:
I’m not totally convinced that Mallet is as astute and on the money strategy wise as many seem to believe he is.. I reckon he got some distinct blind spots of his own brought about largely by quite a sizable self worth opinion or ego of himself..
nevertheless he may have matured substantially from the dude who let his rugby infatuated passion get the better of some pragmatic down to earth reason when he lost the 99 semi down to very similar circumstances to how we exited this last WC knockout game against self same opposition the Wallabies… where we let compromise rule our better judgement and the coach played the wrong personnel in a do or die death knell game…
Mallet is not as superlative efficient in terms of accurate decision making as some seem to think.. Solomons was a big part of his success when Boks were unbeatable for the 17-0 sequence .. as well as it was Carel Dup who unheralded wrote the blue print and laid the foundations for that script
23 Nov 2011, 21:15 pm
@IAAS(I am a stormer)-760: was only planning to make the trip for the match otherwise i’ll me floating up in port st johns around that time.
23 Nov 2011, 21:20 pm
Having said that Mallet is probably by far our most distinguished and professional coach yet and a far more open minded prospect to take the team forward in contrast to down in the dreary self styled mud delinquents like Fakey Snaky Shaky Jakey Achy White
23 Nov 2011, 21:23 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-762:fireman’s is in Mechau rd, cnr buitengracht street
23 Nov 2011, 21:26 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-767: mallet will meet with Fikile “burst condom” Mbalula once and he’ll wish he’d taken the Pom job.
23 Nov 2011, 21:29 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-765:
But Mallett is his own man. Much has been said about the Teichman episode and Mallett has been humble enough and big enough to admit his mistake. But any new coach should be able to select his assistants. I was among those who said “Solly who?” at the time. The duty of the head coach is to get the best out the players and Mallett is the type of person who commands respect. This, to me, right now is the type of person that the Boks need. After all, he’s been there before and now knows even more what the job entails. And he won’t go on about “judge me on the World Cup” type of craptalk. He’ll want results immediately. He doesn’t suffer fools easily.
23 Nov 2011, 21:32 pm
@IAAS(I am a stormer)-752: yeah, Mallett went public on wanting the England job, he may just waiting for the RFU to re-organise themselves so he doesn’t have to report to Rob Andrew. Who knows, but he is certainly wanted at Twickenham by the blazers.
23 Nov 2011, 21:38 pm
@Big Hit(Big Hit)-771:
And he has also settled back in Cape Town. As I said earlier, great poker-player is old Nick. The RFU are under more pressure as they will have to start getting ready for the 6 Nations pretty soon. Lets just wait and see.
23 Nov 2011, 21:39 pm
Mallet had both White and PdV on his team during his tenure and he ‘fired’ them both.. or rather Solomons fired White as a glorified walking stats encyclopedia and PdV walked away of his own volition disillusioned by the close knit broeder setup which largely excluded him from any say worth mentioning
23 Nov 2011, 21:43 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-773:
As I said, old Nick doesn’t suffer fools gladly.
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