Lions pivot training with Stormers
22 Nov 2011
Burton Francis ran with the Stormers when the Cape franchise began their pre-season training schedule on Monday.
Francis, who recently parted ways with the Lions, was in Cape Town on Monday running through drills with the Stormers. Officially, the Stormers have contracted only three new players in Joe Pietersen (Bayonne), Deon Carstens (Saracens) and Gerhard van den Heever (Bulls), but Francis could potentially provide further cover for the Stormers in the problematic flyhalf position.
The Boland trio of Bolla Conradie, Elgar Watts and Clemen Lewis also trained with the team on Monday. Having a player of Conradie’s experience in the greater training group will be a boon for the Stormers, and no doubt Watts’s performance in Boland’s title-clinching First Division campaign may have given head coach Allister Coetzee food for thought.
The Stormers recently lost promising flyhalf Lionel Cronje to the Bulls, and aside from Peter Grant, are lacking in experienced No 10s. Kurt Coleman has been exposed to Super Rugby while Demetri Catrakilis and Gary van Aswegen have played Currie Cup rugby, but none of the three, nor Watts for that matter, are established at Super Rugby level.
774 Comments
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23 Nov 2011, 03:45 am
Gates is a product of capitalist accumulative pyramid system where the pawns at the base of the pyramid feed the fat cat who initiated the initial wealth seating structure. But that is a flaw of the system and not of the ingenious hard working capital creator
23 Nov 2011, 04:06 am
Gates is a very intelligent guy who has achieved a tremendous amount in his life but don’t let that soft endearing nerdy looking face fool you. Microsoft are RUTHLESS. They place their shareholders at the forefront of every decision they make and they have no qualms in crushing anybody (individual or business) who they deem an obstruction in their quest for industry dominance. There’s a balance to be achieved between being ethical and being profitable. Even with their charity work I will never support a Microsoft product.
If you’re looking for a true role-model in that industry then look no further than our very own Derrick Shuttleworth, and ask yourselves how he can offer an operating system completely free of charge across the world to people in need that is in many ways better than Microsoft when a Windows 7 package will cost you hundreds of Rands and a Linux package is free to all with a ton of free programs to support it.
23 Nov 2011, 04:27 am
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-402: Sorry, losing my mind here. Derrick Shuttleworth= *Mark Shuttleworth*
23 Nov 2011, 07:09 am
Hi HG and others trying to keep an open-mind.
Here’s a (more balanced than most) article written by con law expert, Pierre de Vos. Apologies if it has been posted here already.
Very few people implicitly and unconditionally trust all government officials, all members of the cabinet and all the members of the intelligence services of their country. Few, surely, believe that they will always act scrupulously, honestly and in strict accordance to the law and the Constitution. (Hell, I am not even sure President Zuma fully trusts all his own ministers.)
One might well implicitly trust ministers and government officials if they belong to the politically party that one passionately supports. Thus, some DA members might blindly trust Helen Zille, while some ANC members might blindly trust Jacob Zuma. But very few of those DA supporters would blindly trust Zuma and very few of those ANC supporters would blindly trust Zille.
And whether one is a die-hard ANC supporter or a die-hard DA supporter, there cannot be too many people around who would blindly trust the members of the intelligence services (in other words the spies whose job it is to deceive, to keep secrets, and to obfuscate, all in the name of protecting national security). Given the way in which our spies have been implicated in various political plots relating to various ANC factions, only a fool will tell you that he or she believes our spies always respect the letter and the spirit of the law and always act honestly, and in the best interest of the Constitution and us citizens. Most would worry that our spies might at some point act in the interest of one or other faction in the ruling party, in the interest of members of the police or the military (as some did in attempts to try and protect the corrupt former Police Commissioner) or merely in their own interest. After all, members of the intelligence service has often acted unlawfully and unconstitutionally over the past few years.
This is why a discussion of the dangers of the Protection of State Information Bill passed by the National Assembly today (and now to be discussed by the National Council of Provinces), raises difficult questions. On the one hand the Bill on its face is not nearly as draconian as members of the media keep arguing. The Bill represents a vast improvement on the truly draconian Bill first tabled in Parliament last year and — at least on paper — now contains many safeguards to protect us against the emergence of a secretive national security state or the abuse of the Bill to cover up corruption, maladministration and other kinds of criminality in government.
However, on the other hand, the BIll cannot be judged on paper, but must be judged in the context in which spies and politicians have often been revealed over the past few years to be less than honourable and respectful of the law.
The problem with the new “improved” version of the Bill and the safeguards included in it, is that it assumes that we can blindly trust all government Ministers, state officials and spies to understand the intricacies (and seemingly contradictory aspects) of this Bill and to always apply it in accordance with this perfect understanding of the various provisions of the Bill. It also assumes that those who are empowered to classify documents and review the classification of documents will do so with one eye on the Constitution. Furthermore, it assumes rather optimistically, that the Minister of State Security (whose wive was recently convicted of drug running), other MInisters authorised to classify documents and the spies whose job it is so sow confusion, spread lies and general deceive others while hidden behind a cloak of secrecy, will not abuse their power and will only act in accordance with the letter and spirit of the Bill.
Of course we know that a number of Ministers, including Defence Minister Lindiwe Sisulu and State Security Minister Siyabonga Cwele, have refused to answer questions about their travel costs and hotel stays on the grounds that this would compromise their personal security, displaying a rather authoritarian view on keeping secrets in the interest of security and abusing the excuse of security to evade accountability for possible wasteful expenditure or, worse. One will therefore have to be an eternal optimist to believe that MInisters, spies and other officials authorised by this BIll to classify documents as secret or top secret will not abuse that power at some point or another.
Having said that, it is clear that the main aim of the Bill is not to protect Ministers or the government more generally from exposure for corrupt and other nefarious activities. Section 3(2) of the Act states that the classification, reclassification and declassification provisions of the Bill apply to the security services of the Republic (in other words, the Army, the Police and the Intelligence Services). However Section 3(2)(b)also allows any organ of state (including any government ministry) to ask the Minister of State Security to empower them to classify documents that could supposedly threaten “national security”. If the Minister exercises this power prudently, the scope of the Bill will be much reduced. However, given the paranoid and defamatory statements by the Minister that those who oppose passage of the Bill are being funded by foreign spy agencies, and given that there is a serious question mark over Minister’s judgment, it is not clear that he will not abuse this power.
Section 12 of the Act states that state information may be classified as confidential “if the information is sensitive information, the disclosure of which is likely or could reasonably be expected to cause demonstrable harm to national security of the Republic”. State information may be classified as secret “if the information is sensitive information, the disclosure of which is likely or could reasonably be expected to cause serious demonstrable harm to national security of the Republic”, while state information “may be classified as top secret if the information is sensitive information, the disclosure of which is likely or could reasonably be expected to demonstrably cause serious or irreparable harm to the national security of the Republic”.
‘‘National security’’ is defined as including (and one therefore presume not limited to) the protection of the people of the Republic and the territorial integrity of the Republic against the threat of use of force or the use of force; as well a hostile acts of foreign intervention directed at undermining the constitutional order of the Republic; terrorism or espionage; exposure of a state security matter with the intention of undermining the constitutional order of the Republic; and exposure of economic, scientific or technological secrets vital to the Republic. It explicitly excludes lawful political activity, advocacy, protest or dissent;
With the exception of the subsection dealing with economic or technological secrets, this list looks innocuous. However, it must be read together with section 14(3) of the Bill which states that those classing Bills as secret must consider whether the disclosure may
expose the identity of a confidential source, or reveal information about the 40application of an intelligence or law enforcement investigative method, or reveal the identity of an intelligence or police source when the unlawful disclosure of that source would clearly and demonstrably damage the national security of the Republic or the interests of the source or his or her family;
clearly and demonstrably impair the ability of government to protect officials or persons for whom protection services, in the interest of national security,are authorised;
seriously and substantially impair national security, defence or intelligence systems, plans or activities;
seriously and demonstrably impair relations between South Africa and a foreign government, or seriously and demonstrably undermine ongoing diplomatic activities of the Republic;
violate a statute, treaty, or international agreement, including an agreement between the South African government and another government or international institution; or
cause life threatening or other physical harm to a person or persons.19
If a spy (or a Minister who wishes to hide the fact that he or she has been living it up at the Mount Nelson or has visited a girlfriend in a Swiss jail) read section 14(3) in isolation, he or she may well classify information that would clearly have very little to do with national security. What is therefore limited by the definition of “national security” might well be smuggled back into the act via the back door in section 14(3) of the Bill. I can already imagine Minister Lindiwe Sisulu from pointing to the second bullet point above to justify the classification of all sorts of documents that might embarrass Ministers or might expose the corruption they have been involved in. Because the Bill is so complicated, it would be difficult to make plausible arguments in the public domain that the MInister is abusing the Bill.
But this is not the end of the matter. Section 32(1) does provide a safeguard which could in certain circumstances be effective. It states that a person who wants to gain access to a classified document may apply to a court for appropriate relief after the requester has exhausted the internal appeal procedure against a decision of the relevant Minister of the organ of state in question. If one has every reason to know that a document exists (for example, that a document exist setting out the cost of a Minister’s travel and Hotel stays) , this avenue will be costly but mostly effective (unless one is unlucky enough to have to argue one’s case before a slavishly pro-executive judge).
The problem arises where one receives a document that is classified and the only way one would have known of the existence is if one had been leaked the document. One must then immediately hand back the document to the Police before one can challenge the wrongful classification. If one fails to do so, one could be prosecuted and sentenced to jail. If one holds on to the document, the Minister might say that such a document does not exist and one would not be able to contradict him or her as this would amount to an admission of committing a crime. Moreover, how one would convince a court that a document should be declassified if one does not have access to the document, is not clear.
In short, on paper the Bill that was passed today is not as bad as many in the media argue. But in practice it might be devastating as it might protect our spies and our politician from scrutiny required to keep them on the strait and narrow. It might set us on the slippery slope towards a secretive national security state – as Steven Friedman argued today in Business Day. As an afterthought, it might also help to protect the venal and the corrupt.
Although safeguards do exist in theory, in practice these safeguards will often be illusory (especially for anyone without access to very clever lawyers and pots of money) unless those entrusted with applying the law will always act absolutely honestly, with brilliant insight into the law and with one eye towards the Constitution. The chances of this happening is about as slim as the chances of me winning the Miss World Competition.
This means, for example, that where activists of Abahlali baseMjondolo or the Landless People’s Movement are illegally targeted by the security services because they are perceived to be a threat to the ANC government and their phones bugged, their houses attacked or their leaders tortured and murdered, it would be almost impossible for the organisation to prove this when all the documents that could do so will be classified. Ironically, only the media will have the resources to expose such abuse of power, but this would require the media targeted at the middle classes to display far more concern for the well-being of these social movements whose interests do not always align with the interests of the middle classes served by the serious media.
In a state in which trust has been eroded, a Bill like the one passed today becomes even more scary than it otherwise would have been. The strong reaction of civil society to the Bill therefore says just as much about the specific provisions of the Bill than it says about the fact that the governing party and state institutions have squandered the trust and goodwill it had acquired overman years of struggle. No wonder the ANC politicians are so upset.
23 Nov 2011, 07:48 am
Quotas stay !!
Rugby in particular came under fire, with SA Rugby Union (SARU) president Oregan Hoskins defending his federation.
Hoskins admitted the sport had not progressed as much as it could have in terms of transformation, but he invited more black people to get involved in rugby.
“It will not help to talk only in this forum. I also experienced the worst form of apartheid and the fact of the matter is that I am democratically elected [as SARU president],” Hoskins said.
“So I urge my comrades with the expertise to make yourselves available to the rugby unions and SARU to have a say.
“To effect change in rugby we have to start in the boardroom because, as you know, most of my brothers in rugby are white.”
Hoskins said he would seek clarity from Mbalula and the Sports Ministry as to what had been decided regarding quotas.
“We have heard the decision and that is contrary to what the Minister had said earlier – that quotas had been done away with,” Hoskins said.
“The indaba has decided that quotas should not be done away with, so we will meet as SA rugby to discuss the effect of what has happened here.”
23 Nov 2011, 07:58 am
@justrugby(justrugby)-405: what a moron. Change starts at grassroots, getting more black schools to participate and provide facilities for them.
Its easy enough to kick a ball around in an open veld or gravel pitch, can’t quite play rugby on it.
So, until such time as these facilities are available you will not increase the number of black players in the system, unless they come through the “elite” schools.
23 Nov 2011, 08:07 am
@justrugby(justrugby)-405:
It never really gone away or anything, only the weak minds among us who failed to see the reality did believeit was scrapped
Rugby remains a tough contact sport that will keeps taking its toll, so while the Aplons/Jacobs/Chilibois/Beasts may survive without a scratch, their teams will not!
So who will be the next Boks’ coach?
23 Nov 2011, 08:11 am
@Hondo(Hondo)-407: its not like any of them came from township schools either
23 Nov 2011, 08:15 am
apparently aid jacobs is keen on joining the stormers…
23 Nov 2011, 08:15 am
@My nr1 nr2 too(trupisero)-406:
Facilities need fortune to build and huge ongoing outlay to maintaine
Take a visit to any of the many dozens rugby grounds that were created back in the 1980s and the 1990s around the country by the good wiilers for the ‘under privileged’, what would you find?
Falling after empty rhetoric is a poor judgement, quoting it as a face value is worse!
23 Nov 2011, 08:22 am
@Upho(ufo)-409:
23 Nov 2011, 08:23 am
@grant10(grant10)-411:
hey bud..
i just don’t get your point…!!
23 Nov 2011, 08:25 am
@grant10(grant10)-411: Not sure that would be the wisest thing for stormers to do ….
23 Nov 2011, 08:26 am
@My nr1 nr2 too(trupisero)-408:
None of that expected, chiliboi for instance is a ‘product’ of Pretoria Boys High’
@Upho(ufo)-409:
Jacobs won’t be left alone fo fend for himself, rest assured,
23 Nov 2011, 08:26 am
@Upho(ufo)-412: LOL
Need coffee bud
23 Nov 2011, 08:27 am
@Upho(ufo)-409: Well he needs a paycheck and if AC gets the Springbok job as everyone suspects, then Pieter De Villiers may get the Stormers job. Which means Adi will most likely be in the run on 15, given his favour with his uncle…..
23 Nov 2011, 08:27 am
@grant10(grant10)-413:
i am sure it will not be wise at all…!!
apparently jacobs has also had talks with boland… i think that would be a wiser move for both parties…
23 Nov 2011, 08:28 am
@grant10(grant10)-415:
hehehe…
23 Nov 2011, 08:29 am
@justrugby(justrugby)-405:
I guess if we think about why are we suprised?
Quotas exist in every othert facet of south african life.
Why not in sport?
23 Nov 2011, 08:30 am
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-416:
sheesh…
you like telling scary stories first thing in the morning…!!
let’s hope boland see adi as a worthy buy…!!
23 Nov 2011, 08:35 am
@Upho(ufo)-420:
23 Nov 2011, 08:37 am
Interesting that Ad’s stock was quite high in 2008, so much so that all and sundry, including WP were looking to sign him.
He apparently demanded too much though.
Doubt they’ll still be interested with JdV, JdJ and JF on their books.
Might be a nice bargain basement deal though.
23 Nov 2011, 08:40 am
Good morning all.
I wonder why cats & dogs hate each other so much? Or is it just plain instinct?
Our boerboel went bonkers when a stray cat passed …… talking about humans losing their cool…. man you should have seen this….
dis net dinges en hare wat spat!
23 Nov 2011, 08:46 am
@grant10(grant10)-413:
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-416:
Well, you blokes in the Cape have wanted an extra prop for ages.
With Adi going down there, you have your wish.
23 Nov 2011, 08:46 am
@Taahirah(Taahirah)-422: Adi walked on water in 2008…..brilliant season…absolutely magic
23 Nov 2011, 08:48 am
Quoatas stil in place.
Info bills being passed.
Derrick Watts and his team will most certainly be under the kosh right now.
23 Nov 2011, 08:49 am
So, what has Hoskins achieved ito transformation in 2 terms?
23 Nov 2011, 08:49 am
@Staal(Staal)-423: it is like the bulle and the weeepeeee
in our DNA
23 Nov 2011, 08:50 am
@John Galt(John Galt)-424:
23 Nov 2011, 08:51 am
@John Galt(John Galt)-424: LOL
Vokkoff man!
Send us Jannie …..
Adi should have come to WP a long time ago.
I am not sure Plum handled that oke very well….
23 Nov 2011, 08:54 am
@John Galt(John Galt)-424:
You Shark supporters ridicule your players so easily once they have left, the guy has been a loyal shark player for years ………………….show some respect man !!!!
Or is the respect exclusively saved for captain aura ??
23 Nov 2011, 08:55 am
@grant10(grant10)-428:
good point! But i won’t go so far as hating you guys…. 
@John Galt(John Galt)-424:
23 Nov 2011, 09:00 am
@grant10(grant10)-425: walked on water with that pens?
nada.
23 Nov 2011, 09:00 am
Adi Jacobs has passed his sell by date unfortunately.
23 Nov 2011, 09:01 am
@justrugby(justrugby)-431:
Settle down fu ck stick. Im having a laugh.
I have been one of Adis supporters in recent times. In fact I would rather have sent Joubert your way.
23 Nov 2011, 09:01 am
@Staal(Staal)-432: I also dont hate you okes…..
Just dont really understand you bliksems….
23 Nov 2011, 09:02 am
@Staal(Staal)-433: 2008
he was slick
but then Plum never ever gave him a chance…..never quite understood why Adi remained so loyal….
23 Nov 2011, 09:02 am
@Great White Shark(Predawn)-434:
Rather have him than Joubert boet.
23 Nov 2011, 09:04 am
@grant10(grant10)-436: it takes an open mind…
23 Nov 2011, 09:05 am
@John Galt(John Galt)-438:
as an outsider on this issue… why not him and Joubert?
23 Nov 2011, 09:07 am
@John Galt(John Galt)-435:
Ok……………. you excused then, I will remove the boot from your throat !!
I would also have sent Joubert this way, as long as he stopped his journey in Paarl (Boland) ,great player who is at the end of his career and the body simply no longer can deliver what the mind requires !!
23 Nov 2011, 09:07 am
I reckon sharks gonna still surprise by buying a centre and a lock
No way they can go into super 15 with current players
23 Nov 2011, 09:07 am
@John Galt(John Galt)-438:
Word is there are quite a few youngsters training with The Sharks this season. I’m hoping this is the start of something special with the NRU.
Get the veterans on the bench and blood the new breed of Sharks for the future.
23 Nov 2011, 09:09 am
@Great White Shark(Predawn)-443: Sharks will always be close to the top.. imo. Good union. Great supporters, great stadium…
spoke to Vic about it…he is very impressed with shark management…. and their plans.
23 Nov 2011, 09:10 am
@Staal(Staal)-440:
Nyet thank you very much.
23 Nov 2011, 09:14 am
If they keep up this trend of drafting in the Under 21 players there might be hope for us in 2012.
One of them is a 19 year old lock. Wonder how he’ll do.
23 Nov 2011, 09:15 am
@grant10(grant10)-442: buy him from where, France? they already did that and came back with Marius “i am unfit” Joubert!
23 Nov 2011, 09:15 am
@Great White Shark(Predawn)-443:
They have some U21s in the S15 training group at present. Mtembu, Jordaan, Prinsloo, Dutoit, Marais, Redelinghuis and Reinach I think.
Remains to be seen which of those will be kept on though. Im not holding my breath given Strauli and Plums recent player selections.
Out of all of the players mentioned above, I would love to see Jordaan, Prinsloo, and Pieter Steph du Toit stay on. Mtembu as well but he might struggle given the depth at loose foreward at the Sharks.
23 Nov 2011, 09:21 am
@Taahirah(Taahirah)-404: thank you Taa!
pierre raised exactly the points i tried – in my own layman way – to raise with Mpundulu last night re the intelligence services! we know they are partisan or open to manipulation – especially with Mo Shaik as big d!ck in that Dept.
asking the country to implicitly trust the current governing party might be one thing, but they’re not guaranteed to be in power till kingdom come, next thing we have ANOTHER crowd with even more nefarious inclinations and we’re bummed.
23 Nov 2011, 09:22 am
@Taahirah(Taahirah)-422: if WP could sign Frikkie Welch(sp) then they can sign Adi
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