TMOs to play bigger role
1 Dec 2011
Television match officials could be allowed to point out foul play to referees during the 2012 Super Rugby tournament.
The IRB recently announced that TMOs in two tournaments – one in each hemisphere – would be allowed to do this on a trial basis, with the European Cup being the first.
According to the Volksblad newspaper, Super Rugby could follow suit.
‘There must still be decided what tournament in the southern hemisphere the new technology will be used in, but hopefully it’s in the Super Rugby tournament,’ Saru referees manager André Watson said. ‘It is good to use technology where it could be of assistance and I support it 100%. However, I fear that most people won’t realise that it won’t be infallible.’
The IRB is yet to decide how the rule would be implemented. The first option is for the referee to decide when he would want to refer possible foul play to the TMO, while the second option would be for each of the two captains to receive one referral per match.
Watson said a combination of the two could work.
‘One must remember that the captain can’t always see everything that happens on the field and won’t always be able to make a call to refer the incident.’
70 Comments
1 Dec 2011, 07:00 am
trust a saffa dragon meuwesen to teach paddy where the game is going.
1 Dec 2011, 07:03 am
Pity. I’d for a little fisticuff incident to cancel out a try that’s already been scored.
Man up, whooses. This is a man’s sport, not soccer or ballet.
1 Dec 2011, 07:04 am
“I’d hate for”…
1 Dec 2011, 07:08 am
To continue, I support referrals for forward passes leading to tries, or checking whether a guy knocked the ball or stepped into touch sometime in the phase of play that led to the try.
But not for foul play.
1 Dec 2011, 07:15 am
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-4:
I agree 100%.
Instead of concentrating on whether points are legitimately scored or not, we now have a scenario where some arbitrary act of foul play – even handbags at five paces – could result in the reversing of a perfectly good try.
It boggles the mind.
1 Dec 2011, 07:30 am
It’s time these buffoons realise that spectators don’t actually mind the odd bit of physical altercation in the game. It adds to the drama.
But what we do hate are filthy cheaters. Like Reechie and Pocock.
Richie punching Bakkies in the face won’t anger me in the least. Bakkies will probably just blow him a mocking kiss afterwards.
But Richie deliberately committing a proffessional foul to prevent us from scoring a certain try, THAT should cop him a 6 month ban.
These IRB stooges have their priorities all wrong.leave off trying to sanitize the game just to convert some soccer moms to rugby moms. Instead, get rid of the cheaters, rather than giving them IRB player of the year awards.
1 Dec 2011, 07:46 am
i think this is a great call…
It’s not about rugby being for namby-pambies or spectators not minding seeing some fisticuffs…
There are plenty of opportunities to hit someone hard legally… think burger on du preez or smit on thorn… without having to resort to dirty play…
and having TMO calls for foul play will not stop fisticuffs at all… so spectators will still see that sort of thing from time to time to satiate their bloodlust…
the only different is now the (correct) offenders will be dealt with and penalized…
and don’t be hypocrites guys…
It’s fine to say now that a try could be cancelled because of it… like it wouldn’t matter to you when it does happen… but you guys are among the biggest bitters and moaners when the incorrect call is made…
just go back a few weeks and all the moaning and crying and calls of conspiracies and match-fixing etc etc… done on this site because tries were scored… or not scored… because fouls and/or mistakes were called… or not called… in the run-up to the tries…
I think this is a great step and only complaint is why it took so long…
1 Dec 2011, 07:48 am
“biggest BITCHERSandMoaners…”
damn predictive text…!! :angry:
1 Dec 2011, 07:48 am
Can you imagine the potential of disruption to the game’s flow if every potential foul play scenario is checked by the TMO. And what of the potential of more soccer-style diving in cases where a side’s under pressure and looking for a penalty for relief. Or a penalty for points. Non-Saffers moan about Ratel’s “dive” against the Moans. How much more diving could there potentially be?
I say, leave the foul play to the citing commissioners, but have a fixed group of “professional” folk doing this so that their citings can be consistent. And a fixed group of judicial officers so that punishments can be consistent.
Consistency – that’s what the IRB needs to strive for. Not some faux, namby-pampy PC clean-up.
1 Dec 2011, 07:54 am
Sir Richard McCaw cheat? You jest, pilgrim!
1 Dec 2011, 08:00 am
It is just a trial so let’s wait and see. @ Hooker. I doubt the TMO will stop play to review the footage. I suspect they will only chip in when play has already been stopped.
1 Dec 2011, 08:04 am
@Hooker22(Hooker22)-9:
I disagree… There are just not that many instances of flagrant dirty play in each game…
the time wasting card is often played by those who don’t want innovation without any practical facts at hand… only agenda-driven assumptions…
the only way we will ever really know if or how much time is wasted would be to trial it and see what happens in reality… which is what they’re doing…
TJs or assistant refs often call play back already for foul play… by hanging their flags out… and we still often get the wrong calls made…
it would actually save time IMO… if the TMO could cut through the cr@p and dithering and speculation about who saw who doing what to whom… by simply cutting in and saying player A decked player B… finish and klaar… and CORRECT call made…
1 Dec 2011, 08:15 am
just a thought…
those that don’t want this trial or innovation implemented…
please have the integrity going forwards to NEVER complain about foul play being missed by the ref again…
when it costs your team the match… please be honest enough to say…
“Well, it doesn’t matter that my team lost because our star player was decked behind the refs back and got carried off … because it was really just so great to see good ol’ fashioned he-man rugby fisticuffs… which is what we really watch rugby for…”
1 Dec 2011, 08:16 am
So under the new laws, if a player ie deliberately killing the ball on their own try line after coming in from the side & making no attempt to get out of the way, and the attacking player roughly clears him out, the TMO can only rule on the aggressiveness of the attacker clearing him out, and not the deliberate infringement?
Seems a very protective rule if you are constantly going to transgress, cause now you know that the opposition cannot do a damn thing about it.
Oh how nice it must be to be a kiwi/aussie
1 Dec 2011, 08:19 am
@Upho(ufo)-12:
@stormer in a teacup(stormer in a teacup)-11:
Maybe. But it depends on the parameters used. And how it’s implemented. Because foul play is not just eye-gouging and punching. What about marginal high tackles? What about bakkies-type clearing of rucks? etc, etc.
And yes, I agree that the only way to know whether it works or not is to trial it. But surely the legitimacy of scores is more important than whether a highish tackle is foul play, whether someone cleaning out at the rucks used their arms or not, whether a tackle made during a kick was late and therefore dirty.
As for speeding up the game – how many times do we wait and wait and wait during TMO try decisions. Yes, some of them are easy and quick, but others take every possible camera angle – are we going to do that with potential foul play scenarios?
And UFO, I am firmly in the camp of using technology. But I think it should be used for the more important factors – was a try scored or was that a forward pass, knock-on, etc.
1 Dec 2011, 08:23 am
@Upho(ufo)-13:
No one’s saying that. Or certainly I’m not. But like I mentioned, foul play is not just fisticuffs. It’s all kinds of other issues like I mentioned above.
I wonder if the tone of your post is not an “agenda-driven assumption”.
1 Dec 2011, 08:25 am
I think that foul play and off the ball krap is a big part of teams game plans …. I mean Meyer is a big advocate of “dominating” the collisions and that often is code for dirty play.
How these dirty teams are going to adapt to Fortuin, fingering their filthies, like that Flip thug will be interesting.
1 Dec 2011, 08:25 am
@stormer in a teacup(stormer in a teacup)-11:
And how far back would they then go? What if it’s a passage of 26 phases that leads to a fantastic try. Now the TMO goes back to a suspected high tackle (foul play) and the ensuing three minutes of rugby is, what, negated?
1 Dec 2011, 08:27 am
@BULLET(BULLET)-14: Absolutely spot on!
1 Dec 2011, 08:44 am
Upho
You’re totally missing the point, and failing to break the argument into its component parts. Let me help you:
1. No one is against the use of technology.
2. Technology should be used to address the infringements that interfere most with the scoring of legitimate tries.
3. For every ONE try that is illigitimately scored because the defender was “decked with an uppercut” as you suggested, there are probably 100 tries that are illigitimately prevented by players like Richie and Pocock going offside at rucktime to slow the ball down illegally.
Hell, I can’t actually remember a single instance where a try was scored because the defender was lying unconscious due to foul play. That type of thing tends to be picked up in any case, withou the use of technology.
So, if technology IS going to be trialled, surely logic would dictate that it be utilized to address the areas of greatest deficiency – and currently those areas are professional fouls being missed, and players scoring off forward passes and the like.
Not guys running in tries past defenders who have been decked by a roundhouse from Bakkies.
1 Dec 2011, 08:46 am
@Hooker22(Hooker22)-15:
of course it depends on the parameters employed… but we don’t even know what they are yet and you’re already against it…
i read ‘foul’ play… not ‘robust’ play… so yes,.. they obviously need to clearly define which points of what constitutes foul play will be included…
yes… those ‘time wasting’ endless replay things do waste time… but at the moment these time wasting episodes are solely to see that legitimate tries are scored… so i don’t really understand your point… you want the use for legit tries… but don’t want time wasting… but at the moment the only real time wasting is when the TMO can’t see the touch down…?
one of the statements about this i read elsewhere was the the TMO would alert the ref to incidents of foul play he had seen… so there shouldn’t be much time wasting… as he would have had to have seen the foul play to alert the ref to it…
and i ‘assume’ that the TMO would wait for the next breakdown in play to alert the ref… and whether you restart for a scrum, lineout or penalty is hardly going to matter time-wise…
so the ref blows for a knock on… TMO says in his ear… “red player punched blue player…. back on the 22…” ref walks back to the mark… which is hardly any different to ref playing advantage anyway…
so all in all… i don’t really see time wasting as being an impediment…
to me it’s far more important to get the correct calls made… and the correct players penalized…
1 Dec 2011, 08:49 am
This is rubbish. There are 3 officials on the field who are perfectly capable of pointing out foul play.
If the call is simply to identify the culprit where not clear, then fine, else a waste.
1 Dec 2011, 08:50 am
also, with cameras following the play, hardly any foul play is caught off the ball, so what use would the TMO be then?
1 Dec 2011, 09:01 am
This is really just an instant replay of the citing process. Personally, I’d rather have the player sent off immediately, rather than a future suspension, which has no effect on the game where the offence was comitted.
1 Dec 2011, 09:02 am
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-20:
no tac… i haven’t missed the point and really don’t need your help… like you’re a poster boy for logical and honest thought…
you in fact have missed the point and are extrapolating it way beyond what has been announced…
i’m simply sticking to the point…
to take your extrapolation to it’s (il)logical conclusion… and “address the infringements that interfere most with the scoring of legitimate tries.”
we should then include forward passes in the TMO ‘foul’ play gambit as we all know over the last few years an inordinate amount of tries have been scored… or not… due to ‘forward’ passes…
now the TMO will most probably be using a television monitor and not a crystal ball… so will not know whether or not a try is going to be scored from a forward pass or not… for example a forward pass in the in-goal area could lead to a breakaway try under the other sides posts… or lead to a five metro scrum from which they get a pushover try… and you are saying the TMO should call for that sort of incident…
where do you draw the line…?
so the TMO should now call on ALL forward passes because each ‘might’ be in the lead up to a try being scored…?
you’re over-complicating it… so far, what has been said by the IRB is for ‘foul’ play… let’s leave it there and see what happens…
1 Dec 2011, 09:05 am
@David(David)-24:
exactly…
how many times hasn’t a team won because of foul play where the player was later banned after citing… but his team still has the win and log points…?
far rather deal with it immediately and have the player’s foul play have a direct consequence on the game in which he offends…
then see how popular serial offenders will be with their fans and team mates…
1 Dec 2011, 09:05 am
anyway… work calls…
will be an interesting debate…
1 Dec 2011, 09:11 am
Far too much over-reaction on this thread… it’s hardly about the ‘biff’ before a try but any blatant ‘infringements’ en-route to scoring…
1 Dec 2011, 09:11 am
anything that can ensure a fair outcome is to be welcomed.
1 Dec 2011, 09:12 am
What we need is for the TMO to be granted powers to point out cheating refs. In fact, we needed that 6 weeks ago.
1 Dec 2011, 09:16 am
TMO would hardly even be needed if as P’oB promised two seasons ago that the ***. refs would play a much bigger role is ‘assisting’… I can count on one hand the times I’ve seen this happen since!
1 Dec 2011, 09:17 am
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-20: I know its something that gets said all the time, but bringing back rucking would really be great for the sport. Better then the introduction of more TMO usage.
1 Dec 2011, 09:20 am
one last point…
jdv passes to lambie with an open try line… he WILL score…
ref blows a forward pass… stops play… TMO says pass was not forward…???
what then…?
too late… try would have been scored but now won’t be…??
it will be impossible to legislate every possibility of what the TMO will be allowed to call on if you want to include all infringements leading up to a try…
what you’re asking for is the TMO to ref the game by remote control… THAT will never happen…
start with foul play… see how it goes… it can always be tweaked, added to, taken from to make it work better…
but it has to start somewhere…
let’s give it a chance…
outta here…
1 Dec 2011, 09:25 am
Send SA Rugby mag a letter (250 words max) on any rugby topic and stand a chance to win a stay for two at the Springbok Lodge. E-mail judge@hsm.co.za.
1 Dec 2011, 09:30 am
@Simon(Simon)-34: is that Plods place?
If so I would rather spend a weekend in Lavender Hill….
1 Dec 2011, 09:39 am
@>^..^< katman(katman)-30:
a button on our tv remote.
that sends a substantial amount of electricity to a dog collar worn by the ref.
1 Dec 2011, 09:50 am
Point is:
If Jacque Fourie runs in to score a try, but at the preceding ruck Bakkies cleared out Richie a bit too aggressively, that should not cause the try to be overturned, since it had no effect on the try being scored.
Anyway, the pansies obviously disagree.
1 Dec 2011, 09:52 am
@HongKongSlong(HongKongSlong)-32:
precisely.
this would in fact greatly aid countless instances of foul play at the ruck and breakdown and actually make tmo participation far less necessary. lets see reechee flop over onto the wrong side like a little queen or stick his dirty little hands where they should not be, same goes for pawdcock.
1 Dec 2011, 09:54 am
@au revoir mon tout noirs, au revoir…(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-38:
this would in fact greatly aid countless instances = greatly aid negating
1 Dec 2011, 09:55 am
@au revoir mon tout noirs, au revoir…(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-38:
Yeah, let the guys on the field sort out this stuff, rather than giving the ref a bigger role.
1 Dec 2011, 09:59 am
@Gunther(gunther)-36: Multichoice will have to build a far more robust remote before they can do that. That button will suffer more abuse than ET’s mouse when “liking” his own comments.
1 Dec 2011, 10:03 am
@>^..^< katman(katman)-41:
well they can use my remote as a prototype.
It’s suffered plenty of sports related abuse over the last year.
1 Dec 2011, 10:08 am
@Gunther(gunther)-42: I went for 6 months with a remote of which all the top right buttons didn’t work (after my baby girl dunked it in my cup of tea). These included the Alt, Language and most importantly, the Exit buttons. Try getting around menus, info and channels without once hitting Exit. It’s like writing a novel without the letter e – tricky, but ultimately can be done.
1 Dec 2011, 10:09 am
lol. it’s only ever Ritchie and Pocock according to the delusional on here.
imagine if Schalk HAD been sent off properly after his eye gouge vs BI Lions.
Brussouw cheats just as much yet nary a mention. what a laff. talk about swallowing the conspiracy. sad if it wasn’t so funny.
1 Dec 2011, 10:12 am
@>^..^< katman(katman)-43:
or driving a car that only turns left.
1 Dec 2011, 10:13 am
@grant10(grant10)-35:
You don’t have 50 constructive words on rugby let alone 250!
1 Dec 2011, 10:18 am
@Gunther(gunther)-45: Ja, that could be problematic for you D’urbanville lot. You really like your roundabouts, don’t you?
1 Dec 2011, 10:19 am
@>^..^< katman(katman)-43:
In fact I think we have hit on the innovation rugby needs to move into the 20th century.
It will be like Roman gladatorial contests.
except we will be able to participate from the comfort of our living room.
I’m phoning my mate Koos from Naspers immediately.
1 Dec 2011, 10:22 am
@poppa69(poppa69)-44: Come on, be honest here. We all know that all fetcher flankers cheat at times. But Richie and Brussouw are chalk and cheese. Richie is like the Bernie Madoff of the tackle area. And he’s become untouchable. The only way to deal with him is to pull an Al Capone/Tax evasion move on him and penalise (and ultimately ban) him for wearing the wrong mouth guard, or something of the sort.
1 Dec 2011, 10:23 am
@Gunther(gunther)-48: I’m sorry Bryce, the Tribe has spoken. Bzzzzzztttttpppphhhhhhzzzzzffftssshhhhh…
1 Dec 2011, 10:24 am
@>^..^< katman(katman)-47:
roundabouts are Britain’s greatest contribution to cilvilisation.
especially in south africa where the traffic lights never work because Capo has stoeln all the wire to feed his virulent tik habit.
In provence they are a source of pride and each village goes to great length to landscape theirs in a beautiful and unique way.
sometimes over christmas they will have a moving nativity tableau of the three wise men and the Baby Gunther.
1 Dec 2011, 10:29 am
@>^..^< katman(katman)-50:
zigactly, but even better than that there will be no warning at all.
one minute he will be watching contedly as Pocock plays twister all over a ruck or blowing Danie Roussouw up for looking funny at Vickerman and the next he will be a slobbering incoherent palsy thrashing all over the turf.
Destined to spend the rest of his days in the Allan Boesak Home for the Elderly in Mitchell’s Plain watching endless replays of the 95 world cup final.
I smell a Nobel.
1 Dec 2011, 10:30 am
@Gunther(gunther)-51: Perhaps, but they can be a bit daunting for the average TBC (trans-boerewors curtain) dweller. Last week a Belville resident spent 36 hours trying to exit one and only got out when he ploughed through a vibracrete wall after cramping up from the marathon right turn. Imagine your little nativity scene having to deal with that.
1 Dec 2011, 10:32 am
@Gunther(gunther)-52: I can see the touch judge running onto the field with a kit bag. Predictably the whole of Loftus will cheer and whistle as the ref changes his adult diaper.
1 Dec 2011, 10:35 am
@>^..^< katman(katman)-53:
One and a half wise men and no Baby Gunther?
*gulp*
1 Dec 2011, 10:37 am
@Gunther(gunther)-55: ‘Tis the season to be jelly…
1 Dec 2011, 10:39 am
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-40:
yip.
take rugby back to its roots and play it like men.
problem solved.
1 Dec 2011, 10:53 am
@>^..^< katman(katman)-54:
boom.
I think we’ve found a job for extraball.
1 Dec 2011, 11:00 am
@Gunther(gunther)-58: I thought he already had a job. Isn’t he a bouncer at His People Church in N1 City?
1 Dec 2011, 11:06 am
@>^..^< katman(katman)-59:
apparently he has found a part in the film they are making about Dolly.
He plays a malcontent SACOS activist with a love of free t shirts and an insatiable need to fill his tupperware at every opportunity.
he is also doubling as the boundary rope in some of the cricket scenes.
1 Dec 2011, 11:07 am
Fak this is trouble for the boks…they now have a more refs to blame!!
Sucks to be a saffa!!
1 Dec 2011, 11:24 am
@Gunther(gunther)-60:
“an insatiable need to fill his tupperware at every opportunity.” …. what on earth is that a euphemism for?
1 Dec 2011, 11:39 am
@wallabie.(wallabie.)-61:
South Africans have used the technology illegally already.
To them its a great idea until they realise that infact SA kill the ball and cheat just as much as any other team.
1 Dec 2011, 11:54 am
@wallabie.(wallabie.)-61:
@Hurricane(Hurricane)-63:
you guys are just projecting now…
1 Dec 2011, 12:18 pm
@au revoir mon tout noirs, au revoir…(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-64:
1 Dec 2011, 12:48 pm
@Hurricane(Hurricane)-65:
i respect your honesty…
1 Dec 2011, 17:44 pm
Very good idea. Should have been implemented in the past wc.
Captains should have 3 referrals.
2 Dec 2011, 00:17 am
@Puma(Puma)-67:
Agreed…but how far does a captain be allowed to go back and for what incidents can he refer?
2 Dec 2011, 02:28 am
@wallabie.(wallabie.)-68:
One would think only for the end of that move… but it’s going to be a bit suss if there’s a 20 plus phase move…
Expect to see far more chirping too… which I cannot stand… albeit do see the captain’s frustration when ref’s are getting it so wrong…
I’d like to see an extra 5mins at half-time where both captains have a quick chat with the ref, the ***.refs actually doing their job properly and the TMO use sparingly for a referral or two… nothing more…
2 Dec 2011, 02:43 am
@bryce_in_oz(bryce_in_oz)-69:
That’s ‘Assistant’ refs…
Whilst on this subject it’s time for Paddy O Brien to be shown the gangplank off the gravy train… he’s added zero in his tenure… and has given zero input after this RWC… new blood needed at the top… give him his golden handshake and the boot!
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