Blitzboks falter in Dubai
3 Dec 2011
The Springboks Sevens conceded a last-minute try in their 17-14 Plate final defeat to Australia while England lifted the Cup on day two of the Dubai Sevens.
England downed France 29-12 in the title decider, which confirmed their second consecutive Dubai Cup success. But for the Blitzboks, it was a disappointing end to their campaign in Dubai after a impressive run on day one, which saw them top Pool B and record a famous win over defending World Series champions New Zealand. It was the Blitzboks’ worst tournament finish since their run at the Wellington leg in 2010, where they lost 26-12 to Fiji in the Plate final.
Against Australia, South Africa started strongly and claimed a converted try from the first attacking move. Chris Dry was the scorer, after playing a key role in winning possession from the kickoff. Aussie youngster Lewis Holland levelled matters before Branco du Preez capitalised on a Boom Prinsloo break to secure a 14-5 lead at half-time.
But the Blitzboks were errant in the second stanza, and the Aussies won the ascendancy and scored two tries through Hamish Angus and Holland. The latter score was a runaway try from the Aussies’ 22m area as South Africa slipped two tackles in the final movement of the match.
Earlier in the day, the Springboks Sevens beat Wales 22-7 in the Plate semi-final.
It was an easy win over the 2009 World Cup winners. It was a Grey College connection that secured a 12-0 half-time lead as Boom Prinsloo set up Robert Ebersohn for the first try before putting through William Small-Smith moments later.
Renfred Dazel and Branco du Preez both dived in at the right corner to complete the victory, while Wales managed to grab a late try through Owen Williams.
In their first match of the day, the Springbok Sevens’ title run came to an abrupt end with a 19-5 Cup quarter-final defeat to France.
France scored all the points in the first stanza, with Manoel Dall crossing the line shortly before the break. Renaud Delmas and Terry Bouhraoua sealed the match with second half tries as South Africa could only dot down for a consolation score via Bernado Botha.
Blitbzoks’ fixtures and results, day two:
Cup quarter-final: South Africa 5 France 19
Plate semi-final: South Africa 22 Wales 7
Plate final: South Africa 14 Australia 17
Click here for all fixtures and results
195 Comments
3 Dec 2011, 09:50 am
ABs beaten again. This time by England.
3 Dec 2011, 09:52 am
Dragons…… versus Pumas. Lol:
3 Dec 2011, 10:05 am
Yeah Wales holding on there…..
Nice to see England take that one.
Bring on France!
3 Dec 2011, 10:13 am
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-3:
Pumas sneak it!
3 Dec 2011, 10:19 am
@David(David)-4: Well done to them.
SA making heavy weather of it so far….
3 Dec 2011, 10:22 am
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-5:
Yeh, France looking the better side. That try was well worked.
3 Dec 2011, 10:31 am
Oh dear, we’re fuc*ed!
3 Dec 2011, 10:31 am
Oh dear, we’re fuc*ed!
3 Dec 2011, 10:31 am
Oh dear, we’re fuc*ed!
3 Dec 2011, 10:32 am
What’s going on, but worth the repetition.
3 Dec 2011, 11:28 am
The score isn’t SAF 19 FRA 5.
It’s FRA 19 SAF 5.
3 Dec 2011, 11:32 am
What a disappointment losing to France. Really thought we would have beaten them and only had Arg then in the Semi. We just have made the final. Huge opportunity missed to pick up some big points and go ahead of NZ on the log.
Anyhow hope we better next week on home soil.
Really looking forward to seeing the 7′s held in PE. The atmosphere there when when the crici is on is just brilliant with the band playing the whole day. So hope the same for the 7′s. Should be awesome.
3 Dec 2011, 11:33 am
@Puma(Puma)-12: should read: We just may have made the final.
3 Dec 2011, 11:35 am
@David(David)-10: hahaha…
3 Dec 2011, 11:57 am
Still can’t quite embrace 7s. Not really any real interest for me. Thanks.
3 Dec 2011, 11:58 am
Well that sucked. Had to go burn off some energy with the kids in the garden before I came back in.
After beating New Zealand to lose to France is disappointing in the extreme…..
3 Dec 2011, 11:58 am
Oh and they play far too much of it these days too. I actually used to enjoy it when there was only the Hong Kong 7s.
I guess that’s the same as normal rugby, there’s far too much.
3 Dec 2011, 12:05 pm
oh no man!
3 Dec 2011, 12:13 pm
Losing to France? SMITTIE’s FAULT! I don’t know how or why but he MUST be!
Oh FaRK! CAPS sorrY!
3 Dec 2011, 12:25 pm
France are redhot this year. They continue to be giant killers….All Blacks, Boks….whose next..
3 Dec 2011, 12:43 pm
The next round is in PE.
So NZ get two home Tournaments…………………………………………………cool.
8)
3 Dec 2011, 12:45 pm
@cane(cane)-21: PE aint George mate.
3 Dec 2011, 12:48 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-22:
I know stormboy,
It’s even better.
8)
3 Dec 2011, 12:56 pm
@cane(cane)-21: yoh Cane you obviously didn’t watch the test in PE this year when the boks slaughtered the Blacks… the crowd was only supporting one team… never heard our anthem sung so well. The people of PE made the rest of the country very proud… they are not the same as the fickle Capetonians…
3 Dec 2011, 13:05 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-24:
The Port Elisabeth Test was not a high priority for NZ Spooner.
We didn’t want to peak to soon.
There were bigger fish to fry, in the months that lay ahead.
PE still gave the AB’s an awesome reception.
3 Dec 2011, 13:09 pm
@cane(cane)-25: pity your team were “denied” the challenge of meeting ours in the RWC… you thanked Brycie for that by awarding him best ref in NZ…
3 Dec 2011, 13:22 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-26:
In it’s last 180 minutes of RWC Finals, SA have not scored one (1) single try.
Brycie didn’t help. That he freely admits in retrospec.
But you Okes don’t help yourselves either.
4 Dec 2011, 02:47 am
No surprise here… too many Orks to consistently beat the bigger sides…
4 Dec 2011, 11:17 am
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-24:
Slaughtered?
I recall the ABs B team mincing up the Boks backlinre consistently, we just could not finish. What was it, about 4 tries the ABs blew.
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-26:
As Cane said, 180 mins of not scoring a try, and i think it would have turned into 260 mins without a try.Boks were not good in the RWC. Of course this is my opinion
4 Dec 2011, 12:25 pm
@Hurricane(Hurricane)-29:
And a well respected and knowledgable opinion it is.
8)
(Hey, we got a 5.7 All okay just the same).
4 Dec 2011, 12:52 pm
@cane(cane)-30:
lol
Thanks Cane
My brother text me saying they just had a shake. 5.7 is a decent shake. Lucky it was 60km deep.
All ok at the Cane house?
4 Dec 2011, 13:03 pm
@Hurricane(Hurricane)-31:
Nothing compared to the grief you lot have had to endure.
Was 5.7 …………………………………………but felt like a 3.7
For you Guys, it would be a mild inconvenience.
The scary part, is when the quake starts, and then builds momentum………………
You feel helpless……………………………….not knowing how bad it’s going to get.
4 Dec 2011, 15:28 pm
Heres one for you Katman………………
“As long as man continues to be the ruthless destroyer of lower
livings beings, he will never know health or peace.
For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other.
Indeed, he who sows the seed of murder and pain cannot reap joy
and love.”
~Pythagoras
4 Dec 2011, 17:00 pm
so confirming Pythagoras was a vegie just like all his conscientious peace loving humanitarian brethren before or after alike, Gautama Buddha, Lao Tzu, JC Superstar, Socrates, Aristotle, Plato, Mahatma Gandhi, George Bernard Shaw, Albert Sweitzer, Albert Einstein, Albert Camus, John Lennon, Bob Dylan, George Harrison, Carlos Santana, John Mclaughlan, and perhaps a good couple billion others, and some these barbaric hordes from out the west think its common normality to eat the dead decaying carcasses of corpses.
The weekend Burger headlines got a pic of Schalk in betrothal mode with his new flaxen haired bride while the Burger clan is split asunder under the brotherly love that encapsulates our humane loving forgiving Christian tendencies
4 Dec 2011, 17:12 pm
Jacques Fourie is the ultimate mercenary under the superficial guise of professionalism money rules the roost where Ioane has shown there is still place for traditional dignity camaraderie and loyalty in this sport, others like Fourie have long gone chucked such traditional team ethic sentiment out the ‘professional’ mercenary me first and stuff the rest window.
4 Dec 2011, 17:30 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-34: Einstein was a veggie for just the last year of his life. He was an omnivore for the rest of his life, as our bodies evolved to be.
4 Dec 2011, 18:00 pm
and while frantically Wiki-ing Socrates, Aristotle, Sweitzer, Mother Teresa, Jeshua the Nasorean, John the Baptist, Pythagoras, Ptolomy, Zoroasta, dear conservatory concerned conscientious Huggy Huxtable, you may as well start acquainting with the concept of ‘ life before and after death’ or how to withdraw life forces from the lower extremities and up through the focal points of energetic psychic concentration and through the seat of human consciousness into realms of experience and existence every living being will have to traverse anyway whether they prepared or not when this physical term of this bodily occupation ends, unless of course its preferential to remain in the dark in non blissful ignorance appropriate to how life and nature actually works in this exquisitely enthralling experiential expansive universe we inhabit, unbeknownst to most who are hardly ‘living’ in this dream state we like to call ‘life’ on this tiny creaking at the seams overly populated overly expropriated planet
4 Dec 2011, 18:06 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-37: You lost me at psychic, that pseudo nonsense.
4 Dec 2011, 18:08 pm
and this is what the great lenny C had to say a long time ago:
“A person who eats meat
Wants to get his teeth into something
A person who doesn’t eat meat
Wants to get his teeth into something else
If these thoughts interest you for even a moment
You are lost”.
4 Dec 2011, 18:09 pm
Looks like England, France and the young Aussie team are the ones to beat this year.
The Kiwis are easybeats and just about useful for running practice.
4 Dec 2011, 18:11 pm
Einstein most likely saw the folly of his ways prior to his pending death, pity you could never have an audience with him as to the reason why he chose to discard the barbaric practice of killing living conscious beings for human food which is alien to human and humane evolution, but we ain’t gonna settle this argument here, you prefer to live in your deluded ignorance in abysmal state of non bliss continue in your self delusional so called idiotic academic ignorance, monkee see monkee do what the hordes of barbarous conditioning decrees to be ‘normality’ when fact is it is absolute abnormality.
4 Dec 2011, 18:16 pm
dunno who this Lenny Chad is, whoever he may be he most certainly ain’t great, that’s for sure.
4 Dec 2011, 18:21 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-41: Agree to disagree. We’ve been omnivors for millions of years. It’s nothing but a personal cultural choice to be a veggie. Then again, you cannot help but insult views contrary to your own – no offense taken; we’ll all used to it here
4 Dec 2011, 18:27 pm
those who are ‘lost’ are those unable to realize or recognize that this so assumed fluke of existence in human form is not bestowed on you by chance, you were not simply randomly accepted to occupy a human body while another creature occupied a lower body wherewith to occupy and experience this state of ‘life’
When unable to recognize the actual advantage and boon you have received by obtaining human form and human consciousness that is likened to a state of being absolutely deluded and ‘lost’
4 Dec 2011, 18:31 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-42:
Lenny is Mr Cohen- the only songwriter of our generation who can challenge bobby Z.
“Everybody knows”
“So Long marianne”
“Suzanne’
“First we take manhatten”
A genius for sure.
4 Dec 2011, 18:39 pm
the concept of ‘living’ or ‘life’ is obviously simply too advanced for your dead defunct decrepit delusional decomposition of a denial driven academic brain, what they teach you poor defunct delusional dunces in these universities they call the seats of learning and knowledge leave one hell of an abyss of garbage misinformation for poor imbecile academic schmucks to still yet f’ng unlearn, poor lost deluded derelict dunces in delusional defunct denial.
4 Dec 2011, 18:48 pm
Lenny C. is a jewboy cowboy like me, the schmuck should know better, Bobby Z saw the light, wtf is taking that lonesome New York Canadian morose cry baby so long to find out the facts of life? Idiot, just like Einstein he probably wake up on his f’ng death bed. Can’t say same will happen to this overly educated so called archeological ignoramus scientist here that reckons he’s just another apeman from the Tarzan mythic era
4 Dec 2011, 18:55 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-46: Mind if you share whatever it is you’re smoking?
4 Dec 2011, 19:01 pm
I wouldnt dream of knocking a flesh eater
I was one up until recently, it is a lifestyle choice, not something you can force on a person.
As you can imagine about 80% of my friends are vegetarians or vegans and i never experienced any pressure from them. In saying that, I have to say it was easy for me as I was obviously ready. My hub followed suite a few days later, this is a man that braai’d twice a week no matter what the weather and did lamb shank,oxtail or a curry in the potjie one day of the week.
He says he is having no problem with it and is very surprised he is not missing flesh, could have a lot to do with the fact that i would say hows that decaying flesh doll ? to tease him all the time. I did not expect him or ask him to do the veggie thing, jit must be free choice. I think you need to make tasty dishes, a lot of people think its just like boiled veggies and stuff, its not. I am not going to have to worry about his cholesterol,bowel cancer and a lot of that any more.
So if you an omnivore its fine, that is what man is, and believe me i have heard the debates a thousand times, the for, against and personnel choice for whatever reason.
4 Dec 2011, 19:06 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-47:
“Jewboy cowboy”- lol, our lenny is for sure a jewboy- I believe he has been a vegetarian before but then saw the light and then he lost it again and went back to being a vege…. seems as if he is still thinking on the issue. these very clever blokes sometime struggle to make up their minds,.
4 Dec 2011, 19:18 pm
well if Huggy Huckleberry Huxtable along with braaiwors Hubby in tow could make the simple succinct successful switch there might even be a faint vague glimmer of humanitarian hope for some these overly educated denial driven derelict pseudo scientists that still believe we are overgrown orangutangs who grew incisors so we could chew the dead decaying sinews of the herbivores we slaughtered instead of the non evolved non conscious non consequent cud.
4 Dec 2011, 19:35 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-51: I’ll take the chimps, not organgies
4 Dec 2011, 19:45 pm
M*nkeys/simians do eat protein, they eat bugs,eggs and little birds from their nests, and that is a undisputed fact. I am with them everyday and see it so its not something just out of a nature documentary.
4 Dec 2011, 19:45 pm
Surprised Ollie Le ROux never blamed John Smit!
4 Dec 2011, 20:07 pm
Vegetarians….********, eating my food’s food.
4 Dec 2011, 20:10 pm
dont forget adolph hitler, another peace-loving humanitarian.
4 Dec 2011, 20:15 pm
@cab(cab)-56: Any relation to Adolf?
4 Dec 2011, 20:19 pm
Ok, so b.stards is censored, but in the recent comments section no censoring.
Keo, you dumb **** ( see RHS for translation)
4 Dec 2011, 20:21 pm
On the menu for supper: Kassler Chops with an apricot glaze.
Didn’t have the energy to make mash, so it’s oven chips tonight.
protein, fruit and veg.
A perfect balance if you will.
With some ice cold hops on the side.
4 Dec 2011, 20:24 pm
@My nr1 nr2 too(trupisero)-57:
yep, trupi, u got me.
big animal-lover, just not so keen on humans.
4 Dec 2011, 20:25 pm
Poor Kasslet
Still at least you gave him a name.
4 Dec 2011, 20:25 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-59:
are you going to be basting a big-arse turkey for xmas with a bit of beef and brussel sprouts covered in piggy bacon?
4 Dec 2011, 20:30 pm
@cab(cab)-62:
Ham at Xmas with turkey, not beef. You need some traditional culinary education Cab.
4 Dec 2011, 20:33 pm
@Gunther(gunther)-61: Well he was a loyal and trusted pig. Somewhere on a farm….
@cab(cab)-62: Not sure yet. Will have a gammon for sure.
The Paterfamilias will have a turkey and stuffing with all the trimmings on Christmas eve, the outlaws will have cold meats on Christmas day.
Win win really…..
4 Dec 2011, 20:38 pm
Big fartpants was adolphus.
Could gas anyone in the room.
Almost took out Eddie Windsor with a moist cauliflower suprise once.
Poor bugger nearly changed sides.
4 Dec 2011, 20:40 pm
@David(David)-63:
oh i see, apparently we are having a veritable selection, maybe there is some ham on the cards.
Are you a vegetarian then?
This is a vitally important question.
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-64:
gammon, yes cant remember gammon being big in SA, but goddamn thats some tasty ****…
4 Dec 2011, 20:41 pm
Eish you guys are bad, Skop is going to blow a gasket.
4 Dec 2011, 20:41 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-59: Lol…too lazy to cook, so some chunky tuna, mayo and fruit salad it is.
4 Dec 2011, 20:43 pm
@Treehugger(Treehugger)-67: skop will blow anything for a pork chop
4 Dec 2011, 20:45 pm
Had some Haggis the other day… Not too bad… A couple of drams afterwards keeps you nice and warm inside…
4 Dec 2011, 20:46 pm
Haggis quite spicy and rich… A very omnivorous meal.
4 Dec 2011, 20:49 pm
I see blaady Pagan Bob the Builder thinks he’s got all the answers because his so called “experience” dictates it to be so…
Farken cud chewing Mombi idjit…
4 Dec 2011, 20:49 pm
@My nr1 nr2 too(trupisero)-69: Think you wrong there, he is jewish
4 Dec 2011, 20:50 pm
Well, my experience tells me that:
BBQ Ribs are best now
BBQ Ribs are best…
4 Dec 2011, 20:50 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-70: Real haggis or the grainy stuff they serve these days?
Had some when I was in Edinburgh a few years ago. Not for me.
The drams most definitely, the haggis not so much.
@My nr1 nr2 too(trupisero)-68: Family to feed. Spent the afternoon in the pool. Temp. gauge hit 37 at one point.
@cab(cab)-66: Indeed it is. Honey and mustard glaze, cherries and pineapple toothpicks, food of the gods.
4 Dec 2011, 20:52 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-75: Real Haggis followed by drams…
4 Dec 2011, 20:52 pm
@cab(cab)-66:
Not at all.
4 Dec 2011, 20:54 pm
@David(David)-63: So no Beef Wellington on your menu for Christmas, hey?
4 Dec 2011, 20:55 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-75: About the average temp here for the last month!@Treehugger(Treehugger)-73: The rabbi threw away the wrong bit
4 Dec 2011, 20:56 pm
@David(David)-77:
u do realise you are a murderous garbage carnivore and there is no redemption for your soul which will burn in the hellfires of eternity?
4 Dec 2011, 20:57 pm
@My nr1 nr2 too(trupisero)-79: Where is that?
4 Dec 2011, 20:58 pm
Xmas another one of these heathens paganism festivals you poor dumb fck cannibals cannot get your teeth into fast enough, goes with the territory, slaughtering of the fatted pigs and calves all in the name of some pseudo pagan barbarians festival that you idiotic dumb fcks confuse with ****** birthday. What a bunch of moronic heathens like fckd up lemmings heading for the precipice in joined at the hip unison.
4 Dec 2011, 20:58 pm
in short, u are fkd.
all of you sinners, need to start picking carrots. granted, its not going to be much of a xmas with your carrot and parsnip dinner, but then xmas is merely a ridiculous ritual in any case. goddamn sinners.
4 Dec 2011, 21:01 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-81: Zambia. Wish we would get a proper rainstorm soon to cool the place down.
4 Dec 2011, 21:03 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-82: You are wrong… You can read whatever books you like that babble on about pagan rituals and sun worship but nothing beats experience and my experience is that Christmas is a birthday celebration of the person whose name you feel too offended to mention.
4 Dec 2011, 21:03 pm
@cab(cab)-80:
I don’t believe in hell, so I’m safe.
4 Dec 2011, 21:04 pm
you can say fucked up to fuckadilly land but you cannot say JC Superstars name out loud here even when his avid disciples implore you to do so in earnest its banned.. shows how fucked in the head these cannibal heathens are who think eating live flesh is the true dietary heritage of man
4 Dec 2011, 21:07 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-87: we don’t eat live flesh bro. We cook, it, saute it, bake it, fry it, you get the picture…..:)
4 Dec 2011, 21:09 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-87: Its not a heritage, it is fact… Humans must eat meat… They are made that way.
If you don’t eat meat your breath becomes smelly and you slowly get farked in the head…
Evidence is there to see, even on this very rugby site, of these adverse consequences of humans trying to pervert their true nature of needing to eat meat to function optimally…
4 Dec 2011, 21:09 pm
@David(David)-86: You’re obviously not married then…..
4 Dec 2011, 21:10 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-85: hey your messiah ***** ****** is a banned and blasphemous word here.. and Xmas was not his birthday not in a thousand billion daydreams you poor self deluded ignoramus schmuck… it was a Roman pagan festival in lieu of the turning of the sun from winter to summer at the solstice and brought about through the Roman festivities from their attachment to a Mithra religious tradition from a time before C’hrist.. which they adopted into Xmas rather than denounce the Mithra festival they simply combined it with C’hrists fake birthday when they suddenly became Christian.. so when did you become Christian.. you barbaric Germanic heathen.. you don’t know this person from a bar of soap and neither do the billions of his fake followers..
4 Dec 2011, 21:10 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-85:
For me, Xmas is a tradition that has very little to do with any religious conotation, christian or pagan. It’s a matter of childhood memories, sustained and passed on.
4 Dec 2011, 21:14 pm
Off to count some sheep. Suppose skop counts soya beans
4 Dec 2011, 21:16 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-91: Well those garbage history books where you read that are absolutely wrong beyond a shadow of doubt… The authors were probably vegan and by the time they wrote that garbage they were probably mad in the head with vitamin B deficiency… They were confused, forgetful and couldn’t concentrate – probably hallucinating – because thats what happens to you if you don’t eat meat.
But my experience also tells me you are wrong, Christmas is the celebration of Ch.rist’s Birthday full stop no matter who else’s birthday was on at the same time… Simple
4 Dec 2011, 21:17 pm
@David(David)-92: Yeah, well good for you… and like Cab, I also eat beef on Chistmas Day… With turkey… and ham… and beer
4 Dec 2011, 21:18 pm
@David(David)-86:
in that case, eat drink and be merry or in the words of spock, live long and prosper.
4 Dec 2011, 21:20 pm
these poor Roman pagan frucked up imbeciles should see JC live they will f’ng crucify him again.. if they can recognize him that is.. just for being vegetarian they will crucify him again… if they don’t trip over him in the street by mistake..
these poor carnivorous pagan idiots who think they are civilized for slaughtering and devouring flesh of conscious creatures in the same breath call themselves the followers of a messiah who would not hurt a fly and would never kill a conscious living creature for his food.. which he did not ever do…
and they wanna kill and maim creatures for their f’ng Xmas paganism festivities which was never C’hrists birthday anyway, and he would turn those pagan carnivorous tables over in your gluttonous faces if ever he visited you while you scoffing that living flesh in memory of his name…
4 Dec 2011, 21:21 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-94:
yes, but u do realise old JC chucked the money-lenders out the temple in outrage?
4 Dec 2011, 21:22 pm
who created the fishes and loaves ek se or do you dispute the Good Book?
4 Dec 2011, 21:23 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-94: shows how decidedly screwed in the head you are with all this traditional pagan garbage you wanna superstitiously attach to a persons birthday who you will never meet and never know from Adam or Peter or Mary or Paul
how f”ng screwed in the head deluded are you.. and you wanna tell me you are scientifically educated and open minded and awake to reality which you decidedly are not !
4 Dec 2011, 21:25 pm
and all ye who are made in thine saviors image and whom so dwelleth on the earth with 2 legs shall feast upon the other creatures that might be tasty if basted with sauces and herbs…i’m sure that was somewhere.
4 Dec 2011, 21:27 pm
Anyway, this has been fun. Each to their own, and all that.
Have a good evening all, I’m off to cyberstalk some of my wife’s cute facebook friends…..
4 Dec 2011, 21:28 pm
fish is a Greek translation to Latin then German and eventually to English.. though they say Simon Peter and his brothers were fishermen and were C’hrists first disciples, still you better go check the original Aramaic writings if you can lay your hands on them for the real accurate translations of the miracle of the loaves and the fishes.. or any of the tall stories you get in this fable passed down for posterity through a myriad of self interested parties translated and altered a thousand different ways..
4 Dec 2011, 21:28 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-97: And these poor hallucinating pagan idiot vegans can’t see the wood for the trees…
While they howl at the moon and see things that actually aren’t there some of us will be celebrating G.od’s birthday on earth…
We will be drinking wine, like he did with his followers, and shew did he like wine – even making water into wine…
I prefer beer though and will have more than a couple in celebration of His Birthday….
I will also have some nice Beef Wellington, glazed ham and gobble one big gobbling turkey too…
Hmmm mmm mm
4 Dec 2011, 21:30 pm
@cab(cab)-98: Yes, he did have something against bankers… a lesson in there for us all… He smacked them around in his day.
4 Dec 2011, 21:31 pm
@cab(cab)-96:
At 65, going on 66 this month, I don’t think I’m doing too badly.
4 Dec 2011, 21:32 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-105:
i thought u were a banker? you dont think the money-changers were capitalists in general, those who accumulate capital?
4 Dec 2011, 21:34 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-103: Whatever books you’re reading are lies and fairy tales… You might as well read the Wizard of Oz because I doubt you know what you are talking about at all… Nothing more than hallucinations brought on by Vitamin B deficiency… Whereas I know the truth through experience, not fuzzy pagan lying airy-fairy books… and nothing beats experience for knowledge as someone once said…
4 Dec 2011, 21:35 pm
@David(David)-106:
well u sound young in mind. so what in your 66 years worth of experience is the meaning of life?
4 Dec 2011, 21:40 pm
@cab(cab)-107: Yeah, maybe… Speculators and making his temple a market place made him strip hismoer… I told you before capitalism is fcked… The form that we know it where banking greases its wheels is going to fall down kaput soon… Maybe on the day that those Mayans reckon is the end of the world in January 2012 is actually the end of capitalism as we know it… Better buy your generator and store some diesel.
4 Dec 2011, 21:41 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-102: Sheezus…
4 Dec 2011, 21:49 pm
Where’s this pagan vegan fool now? Has he run away from the truth as it confronts him smack bang in the face…
4 Dec 2011, 21:58 pm
@cab(cab)-109:
There is none, other than what we create.
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-110:
A long but fascinating article.
Debt Slavery – Why It Destroyed Rome, Why It Will Destroy Us Unless It’s Stopped
by MICHAEL HUDSON
Book V of Aristotle’s Politics describes the eternal transition of oligarchies making themselves into hereditary aristocracies – which end up being overthrown by tyrants or develop internal rivalries as some families decide to “take the multitude into their camp” and usher in democracy, within which an oligarchy emerges once again, followed by aristocracy, democracy, and so on throughout history.
Debt has been the main dynamic driving these shifts – always with new twists and turns. It polarizes wealth to create a creditor class, whose oligarchic rule is ended as new leaders (“tyrants” to Aristotle) win popular support by cancelling the debts and redistributing property or taking its usufruct for the state.
Since the Renaissance, however, bankers have shifted their political support to democracies. This did not reflect egalitarian or liberal political convictions as such, but rather a desire for better security for their loans. As James Steuart explained in 1767, royal borrowings remained private affairs rather than truly public debts. For a sovereign’s debts to become binding upon the entire nation, elected representatives had to enact the taxes to pay their interest charges.
By giving taxpayers this voice in government, the Dutch and British democracies provided creditors with much safer claims for payment than did kings and princes whose debts died with them. But the recent debt protests from Iceland to Greece and Spain suggest that creditors are shifting their support away from democracies. They are demanding fiscal austerity and even privatization sell-offs.
This is turning international finance into a new mode of warfare. Its objective is the same as military conquest in times past: to appropriate land and mineral resources, also communal infrastructure and extract tribute. In response, democracies are demanding referendums over whether to pay creditors by selling off the public domain and raising taxes to impose unemployment, falling wages and economic depression. The alternative is to write down debts or even annul them, and to re-assert regulatory control over the financial sector.
Near Eastern rulers proclaimed clean slates for debtors to preserve economic balance
Charging interest on advances of goods or money was not originally intended to polarize economies. First administered early in the third millennium BC as a contractual arrangement by Sumer’s temples and palaces with merchants and entrepreneurs who typically worked in the royal bureaucracy, interest at 20 per cent (doubling the principal in five years) was supposed to approximate a fair share of the returns from long-distance trade or leasing land and other public assets such as workshops, boats and ale houses.
As the practice was privatized by royal collectors of user fees and rents, “divine kingship” protected agrarian debtors. Hammurabi’s laws (c. 1750 BC) cancelled their debts in times of flood or drought. All the rulers of his Babylonian dynasty began their first full year on the throne by cancelling agrarian debts so as to clear out payment arrears by proclaiming a clean slate. Bondservants, land or crop rights and other pledges were returned to the debtors to “restore order” in an idealized “original” condition of balance. This practice survived in the Jubilee Year of Mosaic Law in Leviticus 25.
The logic was clear enough. Ancient societies needed to field armies to defend their land, and this required liberating indebted citizens from bondage. Hammurabi’s laws protected charioteers and other fighters from being reduced to debt bondage, and blocked creditors from taking the crops of tenants on royal and other public lands and on communal land that owed manpower and military service to the palace.
In Egypt, the pharaoh Bakenranef (c. 720-715 BC, “Bocchoris” in Greek) proclaimed a debt amnesty and abolished debt-servitude when faced with a military threat from Ethiopia. According to Diodorus of Sicily (I, 79, writing in 40-30 BC), he ruled that if a debtor contested the claim, the debt was nullified if the creditor could not back up his claim by producing a written contract. (It seems that creditors always have been prone to exaggerate the balances due.) The pharaoh reasoned that “the bodies of citizens should belong to the state, to the end that it might avail itself of the services which its citizens owed it, in times of both war and peace. For he felt that it would be absurd for a soldier … to be haled to prison by his creditor for an unpaid loan, and that the greed of private citizens should in this way endanger the safety of all.”
The fact that the main Near Eastern creditors were the palace, temples and their collectors made it politically easy to cancel the debts. It always is easy to annul debts owed to oneself. Even Roman emperors burned the tax records to prevent a crisis. But it was much harder to cancel debts owed to private creditors as the practice of charging interest spread westward to Mediterranean chiefdoms after about 750 BC. Instead of enabling families to bridge gaps between income and outgo, debt became the major lever of land expropriation, polarizing communities between creditor oligarchies and indebted clients. In Judah, the prophet Isaiah (5:8-9) decried foreclosing creditors who “add house to house and join field to field till no space is left and you live alone in the land.”
Creditor power and stable growth rarely have gone together. Most personal debts in this classical period were the product of small amounts of money lent to individuals living on the edge of subsistence and who could not make ends meet. Forfeiture of land and assets – and personal liberty – forced debtors into bondage that became irreversible. By the 7th century BC, “tyrants” (popular leaders) emerged to overthrow the aristocracies in Corinth and other wealthy Greek cities, gaining support by cancelling the debts. In a less tyrannical manner, Solon founded the Athenian democracy in 594 BC by banning debt bondage.
But oligarchies re-emerged and called in Rome when Sparta’s kings Agis, Cleomenes and their successor Nabis sought to cancel debts late in the third century BC. They were killed and their supporters driven out. It has been a political constant of history since antiquity that creditor interests opposed both popular democracy and royal power able to limit the financial conquest of society – a conquest aimed at attaching interest-bearing debt claims for payment on as much of the economic surplus as possible.
When the Gracchi brothers and their followers tried to reform the credit laws in 133 BC, the dominant Senatorial class acted with violence, killing them and inaugurating a century of Social War, resolved by the ascension of Augustus as emperor in 29 BC.
Rome’s creditor oligarchy wins the Social War, enslaves the population and brings on a Dark Age
Matters were more bloody abroad. Aristotle did not mention empire building as part of his political schema, but foreign conquest always has been a major factor in imposing debts, and war debts have been the major cause of public debt in modern times. Antiquity’s harshest debt levy was by Rome, whose creditors spread out to plague Asia Minor, its most prosperous province. The rule of law all but disappeared when publican creditor “knights” arrived. Mithridates of Pontus led three popular revolts, and local populations in Ephesus and other cities rose up and killed a reported 80,000 Romans in 88 BC. The Roman army retaliated, and Sulla imposed war tribute of 20,000 talents in 84 BC. Charges for back interest multiplied this sum six-fold by 70 BC.
Among Rome’s leading historians, Livy, Plutarch and Diodorus blamed the fall of the Republic on creditor intransigence in waging the century-long Social War marked by political murder from 133 to 29 BC. Populist leaders sought to gain a following by advocating debt cancellations (e.g., the Catiline conspiracy in 63-62 BC). They were killed. By the second century AD about a quarter of the population was reduced to bondage. By the fifth century Rome’s economy collapsed, stripped of money. Subsistence life reverted to the countryside.
Creditors find a legalistic reason to support parliamentary democracy
When banking recovered after the Crusades looted Byzantium and infused silver and gold to review Western European commerce, Christian opposition to charging interest was overcome by the combination of prestigious lenders (the Knights Templars and Hospitallers providing credit during the Crusades) and their major clients – kings, at first to pay the Church and increasingly to wage war. But royal debts went bad when kings died. The Bardi and Peruzzi went bankrupt in 1345 when Edward III repudiated his war debts. Banking families lost more on loans to the Habsburg and Bourbon despots on the thrones of Spain, Austria and France.
Matters changed with the Dutch democracy, seeking to win and secure its liberty from Habsburg Spain. The fact that their parliament was to contract permanent public debts on behalf of the state enabled the Low Countries to raise loans to employ mercenaries in an epoch when money and credit were the sinews of war. Access to credit “was accordingly their most powerful weapon in the struggle for their freedom,” Richard Ehrenberg wrote in his Capital and Finance in the Age of the Renaissance (1928): “Anyone who gave credit to a prince knew that the repayment of the debt depended only on his debtor’s capacity and will to pay. The case was very different for the cities, which had power as overlords, but were also corporations, associations of individuals held in common bond. According to the generally accepted law each individual burgher was liable for the debts of the city both with his person and his property.”
The financial achievement of parliamentary government was thus to establish debts that were not merely the personal obligations of princes, but were truly public and binding regardless of who occupied the throne. This is why the first two democratic nations, the Netherlands and Britain after its 1688 revolution, developed the most active capital markets and proceeded to become leading military powers. What is ironic is that it was the need for war financing that promoted democracy, forming a symbiotic trinity between war making, credit and parliamentary democracy which has lasted to this day.
At this time “the legal position of the King qua borrower was obscure, and it was still doubtful whether his creditors had any remedy against him in case of default.” (Charles Wilson, England’s Apprenticeship: 1603-1763: 1965.) The more despotic Spain, Austria and France became, the greater the difficulty they found in financing their military adventures. By the end of the eighteenth century Austria was left “without credit, and consequently without much debt,” the least credit-worthy and worst armed country in Europe, fully dependent on British subsidies and loan guarantees by the time of the Napoleonic Wars.
Finance accommodates itself to democracy, but then pushes for oligarchy
While the nineteenth century’s democratic reforms reduced the power of landed aristocracies to control parliaments, bankers moved flexibly to achieve a symbiotic relationship with nearly every form of government. In France, followers of Saint-Simon promoted the idea of banks acting like mutual funds, extending credit against equity shares in profit. The German state made an alliance with large banking and heavy industry. Marx wrote optimistically about how socialism would make finance productive rather than parasitic. In the United States, regulation of public utilities went hand in hand with guaranteed returns. In China, Sun-Yat-Sen wrote in 1922: “I intend to make all the national industries of China into a Great Trust owned by the Chinese people, and financed with international capital for mutual benefit.”
World War I saw the United States replace Britain as the major creditor nation, and by the end of World War II it had cornered some 80 per cent of the world’s monetary gold. Its diplomats shaped the IMF and World Bank along creditor-oriented lines that financed trade dependency, mainly on the United States. Loans to finance trade and payments deficits were subject to “conditionalities” that shifted economic planning to client oligarchies and military dictatorships. The democratic response to resulting austerity plans squeezing out debt service was unable to go much beyond “IMF riots,” until Argentina rejected its foreign debt.
A similar creditor-oriented austerity is now being imposed on Europe by the European Central Bank (ECB) and EU bureaucracy. Ostensibly social democratic governments have been directed to save the banks rather than reviving economic growth and employment. Losses on bad bank loans and speculations are taken onto the public balance sheet while scaling back public spending and even selling off infrastructure. The response of taxpayers stuck with the resulting debt has been to mount popular protests starting in Iceland and Latvia in January 2009, and more widespread demonstrations in Greece and Spain this autumn to protest their governments’ refusal to hold referendums on these fateful bailouts of foreign bondholders.
Shifting planning away from elected public representatives to bankers
Every economy is planned. This traditionally has been the function of government. Relinquishing this role under the slogan of “free markets” leaves it in the hands of banks. Yet the planning privilege of credit creation and allocation turns out to be even more centralized than that of elected public officials. And to make matters worse, the financial time frame is short-term hit-and-run, ending up as asset stripping. By seeking their own gains, the banks tend to destroy the economy. The surplus ends up being consumed by interest and other financial charges, leaving no revenue for new capital investment or basic social spending.
This is why relinquishing policy control to a creditor class rarely has gone together with economic growth and rising living standards. The tendency for debts to grow faster than the population’s ability to pay has been a basic constant throughout all recorded history. Debts mount up exponentially, absorbing the surplus and reducing much of the population to the equivalent of debt peonage. To restore economic balance, antiquity’s cry for debt cancellation sought what the Bronze Age Near East achieved by royal fiat: to cancel the overgrowth of debts.
In more modern times, democracies have urged a strong state to tax rentier income and wealth, and when called for, to write down debts. This is done most readily when the state itself creates money and credit. It is done least easily when banks translate their gains into political power. When banks are permitted to be self-regulating and given veto power over government regulators, the economy is distorted to permit creditors to indulge in the speculative gambles and outright fraud that have marked the past decade. The fall of the Roman Empire demonstrates what happens when creditor demands are unchecked. Under these conditions the alternative to government planning and regulation of the financial sector becomes a road to debt peonage.
Finance vs. government; oligarchy vs. democracy
Democracy involves subordinating financial dynamics to serve economic balance and growth – and taxing rentier income or keeping basic monopolies in the public domain. Untaxing or privatizing property income “frees” it to be pledged to the banks, to be capitalized into larger loans. Financed by debt leveraging, asset-price inflation increases rentier wealth while indebting the economy at large. The economy shrinks, falling into negative equity.
The financial sector has gained sufficient influence to use such emergencies as an opportunity to convince governments that that the economy will collapse they it do not “save the banks.” In practice this means consolidating their control over policy, which they use in ways that further polarize economies. The basic model is what occurred in ancient Rome, moving from democracy to oligarchy. In fact, giving priority to bankers and leaving economic planning to be dictated by the EU, ECB and IMF threatens to strip the nation-state of the power to coin or print money and levy taxes.
The resulting conflict is pitting financial interests against national self-determination. The idea of an independent central bank being “the hallmark of democracy” is a euphemism for relinquishing the most important policy decision – the ability to create money and credit – to the financial sector. Rather than leaving the policy choice to popular referendums, the rescue of banks organized by the EU and ECB now represents the largest category of rising national debt. The private bank debts taken onto government balance sheets in Ireland and Greece have been turned into taxpayer obligations. The same is true for America’s $13 trillion added since September 2008 (including $5.3 trillion in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac bad mortgages taken onto the government’s balance sheet, and $2 trillion of Federal Reserve “cash-for-trash” swaps).
This is being dictated by financial proxies euphemized as technocrats. Designated by creditor lobbyists, their role is to calculate just how much unemployment and depression is needed to squeeze out a surplus to pay creditors for debts now on the books. What makes this calculation self-defeating is the fact that economic shrinkage – debt deflation – makes the debt burden even more unpayable.
Neither banks nor public authorities (or mainstream academics, for that matter) calculated the economy’s realistic ability to pay – that is, to pay without shrinking the economy. Through their media and think tanks, they have convinced populations that the way to get rich most rapidly is to borrow money to buy real estate, stocks and bonds rising in price – being inflated by bank credit – and to reverse the past century’s progressive taxation of wealth.
To put matters bluntly, the result has been junk economics. Its aim is to disable public checks and balances, shifting planning power into the hands of high finance on the claim that this is more efficient than public regulation. Government planning and taxation is accused of being “the road to serfdom,” as if “free markets” controlled by bankers given leeway to act recklessly is not planned by special interests in ways that are oligarchic, not democratic. Governments are told to pay bailout debts taken on not to defend countries in military warfare as in times past, but to benefit the wealthiest layer of the population by shifting its losses onto taxpayers.
The failure to take the wishes of voters into consideration leaves the resulting national debts on shaky ground politically and even legally. Debts imposed by fiat, by governments or foreign financial agencies in the face of strong popular opposition may be as tenuous as those of the Habsburgs and other despots in past epochs. Lacking popular validation, they may die with the regime that contracted them. New governments may act democratically to subordinate the banking and financial sector to serve the economy, not the other way around.
At the very least, they may seek to pay by re-introducing progressive taxation of wealth and income, shifting the fiscal burden onto rentier wealth and property. Re-regulation of banking and providing a public option for credit and banking services would renew the social democratic program that seemed well underway a century ago.
Iceland and Argentina are most recent examples, but one may look back to the moratorium on Inter-Ally arms debts and German reparations in 1931.A basic mathematical as well as political principle is at work: Debts that can’t be paid, won’t be.
This article appears in the Frankfurter Algemeine Zeitung on December 5, 2011.
MICHAEL HUDSON is a former Wall Street economist. A Distinguished Research Professor at University of Missouri, Kansas City (UMKC), he is the author of many books, including Super Imperialism: The Economic Strategy of American Empire (new ed., Pluto Press, 2002) and Trade, Development and Foreign Debt: A History of Theories of Polarization v. Convergence in the World Economy. He can be reached via his website, mh@michael-hudson.com
4 Dec 2011, 22:04 pm
i think the holy book went thru a few other translations and included a parsimonious selection of what went into it, including the hidden gospels, so where are the gems, the one’s that fit some other particular dogmata? one thing about the good book is it a beautiful example of poetry and the influence such a style of commuincation can have, and the power of style over substance, or in other words bullshit baffles brains.
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-110:
since when the mayans been back to the future? they also big pipe-smoking bullshitters.
4 Dec 2011, 22:12 pm
@David(David)-113: Not bad… Like youknowho Shaun’s book…
Yup, a breaking tipping point will be reached soon… It can’t go on.
4 Dec 2011, 22:12 pm
J’esus Cristos Demitros Debalicos Debentos Deuteronomycos
WTF is all that hullabaloo rigmarole about slavery and debt and the monetary system gotta do with the meaning of life… Monty Python had it spot on perfectly sorted and now these Dravidian Androgynous Dinosaurs wanna re create the f’ng wheel ….
Herr Goebeldy Gwat if you wanna know the reality and truth of the saga come to the Oracle of Ashmolean Osmosis … I fix all your pseudo fck’d up traditional hullabaloo grandmother superstitious tokoloshe bedtime stories for you one time… you will get your eyes woken up from the debilitated slumber you been hoodwinked and bullshitted all your false god fearing life…
4 Dec 2011, 22:22 pm
that “Good Book’ is a collection of romanticized Roman Papal influenced gobbledygook interspersed with some few gems of true wisdom that they couldn’t fuckup and obliterate or alter yet.. though by God they been trying with all their might and for all they are worth to stamp their self centered authoritarian despotic pseudo gobbledygook bumph for the past 20 centuries and counting to bamboozle the masses as far as they possibly can confuse them and hold them fixed to a fake superstitious teaching that don’t have half a figment of a true understood translation or interpretation to what actually happened or went down apart from all the second and third and 100th and 1000th handed down versions that are still getting decimated and fragmented and altered by the day in every other translated version and ‘New Book’ version that they are still butchering and altering yet…….
4 Dec 2011, 22:22 pm
@cab(cab)-114: Yes, but their day of disaster is coincidentally where there could be a convergence of fck ups that could be the beginning of the end of capitalism as we know it…
1. People of Europe give a middle finger to debt
2. Israel bombs Iran
3. Iran blocks the straits of hormuz
4. Oil prices go ballistic
5. The velvet revolution turns into something uncontrollable
6. Change of leadership in China – jostling has already begun
7. The 99% movement in the States gathers momentum in election year vacuum
8. Europe gets fcked even as countries forfeit sovereignty to save the Euro
This could all happen at the same time… A great depression that will make the 1930′s look tame…
4 Dec 2011, 22:25 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-118: and the Mayans will be proved right .. 2012 gonna go ‘all fall down’ and now HG Wells gonna write himself another bedtime nursery rhyme to keep tokoloshe from the ominous capitalists door…
4 Dec 2011, 22:26 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-115:
Yeah, I’ve been following this for a while. The US is becoming an oligarchy, as is the rest of the west. Anyway, I’m off to bed.
Cheers everyone.
4 Dec 2011, 22:27 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-116: What do you know, huh?
Tell me, in your experience, since you think you know everything about anything, what the h.ell our species of talking, walking dancing ape is doing on this particular green growth planet with H2O and O2 at the right concentrations and temperature…
Why are we here?
What are we doing here?
What’s it all for other than experiential existence?
4 Dec 2011, 22:30 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-121:
simple old bean to get the fck back where you belong Jojo.. get back to where you once belonged…and stop beating about the apeman dance rosemary bush about it…
4 Dec 2011, 22:32 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-117: How do you know that… By “experience”… or by reading hallucinogenic bulldust baffles brains paganist disputations borne out of frustration that there is nothing more than the simple truth in the “Good Book”…?
None of this any way the wind blows, crystal ball gazing, wind chiming, dream catching hullaballoo can disguise the truth other than sending vegan fools on a wild goose chase of confusion…
You’re confused… because you read some obscure fairy tale, doesn’t mean you are any less confused…
4 Dec 2011, 22:36 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-122: Get back where you belong? What the fck type of answer is that… I could listen to Joe Cocker singing Up where we belong to get that bullshit answer… and this is all you can come up with?
Go farken find the biggest Steers burger you can find and go and scoff it quickly because you are now hallucinating yourself into stupidity.
4 Dec 2011, 22:37 pm
it is experiential existence.. that is what its all about… the entire rigmarole pantomime from Big Bang to Big Crunch is about the experiential experience and expression of the One who created it.. and we little puppets in the pantomime are part and parcel of That experience must dance the merry jig to that merry tune… and when and if the Piper blows the penny whistle the puppet gonna dance and puppet gonna hear his whistle and then he gonna follow the yellow brick road back to the land of OZ… no so ??
How more simple you wanna hear the same old story they been singing since Adam fell from his apple tree and Eve lifted her fig leaf..?
4 Dec 2011, 22:39 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-121:
The answer to your question is:
To watch Springbok rugby
4 Dec 2011, 22:40 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-118:
Actually I agree with you sadly
You left out one other
Obama gets re elected in 2012
4 Dec 2011, 22:41 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-124: you don’t wanna know squat – you so fixed to your traditional superstitious song and dance serenading you don’t wanna know squat about wtf you are actually doing here in this little over taxed planet almost exhausted from the carbonaceous fumes eating out her atmosphere…
4 Dec 2011, 22:41 pm
Fark that, I will rather ask Joe Cocker for the meaning of life… He makes more sense anyway even if he is soppy sod…
Who Knows What Tomorrow Brings
In A World Where Few Hearts Survive
All I Know Is The Way I Feel
When Its Real I keep It Alive
The Road Is Long There Are Mountains In The Way
but we climb a step every day
Love Lift Us Up Where We Belong
Where The Eagles Cry On A Mountain High
Love Lift Us Up Where We Belong
Far From The World Below
Where The Clear Wind Blow
4 Dec 2011, 22:41 pm
so now who decides which is the gem or not? the self-styled Grand Ou Doosie of hoe?
“Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God”
or
“Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us… He who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.”
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-118:
yeah not really into the conspiracy stuff, but there is big trouble on the horizon and i suspect u may be right about economic revolution.
4 Dec 2011, 22:42 pm
@David(David)-120: Cheers Kehla
4 Dec 2011, 22:42 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-125:
Skoppie have you seen this
You may have sent this to Robzin and seen it already.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZSY6nnLtRw
4 Dec 2011, 22:43 pm
@CoachPete(CoachPete)-126: Now that’s more wisdom than anything from the bulldust baffling Vegan Guru….
4 Dec 2011, 22:45 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-133:
I just thought I would reminded you guys of our priorities of why we are here.
4 Dec 2011, 22:47 pm
yip that bible got some wierd-*** stuff in it…so much for love and peace, and they been bible-bashing in the republic of sa like its their god-given right since time immemorial.
the same goes for these intensely militant vegans and greenpeace nutjobs and animal acitivists etc, they fail to see the own hyprocracy between the principles of love and peace they support and the way they enforce these through violence and agression.
janee, yes-no, this is a very strange world we live in, with all these fudamentalists.
4 Dec 2011, 22:49 pm
Steers makes a veg burger, tell me bout the jostling 4 power in China, thats interesting. But remember, keep it simple.
4 Dec 2011, 22:51 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-129:
sounds a lot like the song by my favourite artiste of alltime, the blesbok bridges, on the wings of a wit duif…
4 Dec 2011, 22:51 pm
@Treehugger(Treehugger)-136:
China already have the power they own half of USA and will soon own most of South Africa
4 Dec 2011, 22:52 pm
@Treehugger(Treehugger)-136:
holy **** treehugger, are u completely insane, u go all the way to steers and then order a veggie burger? this is sacriledge, didnt even know steers made veggie burgers, its a goddamn outrage…
4 Dec 2011, 22:52 pm
@cab(cab)-130: Not talking conspiracy, am talking reality and us sheep are sleepwalking into one big worldwide allfalldown… You better go get a veggie patch so you’ve got something to barter… Everyone is copying Zimbabwe style voodoo economics… Banks are indebted to other banks and they are indebted to everyone else while everybody is indebted to banks… And nobody knows where the money has gone or where its going to come from… Money means everything and farkall at the same time… I tell you something is going to give soon… And when it does its going to come like a “thief in the night” and we all wake up in the morning and ask ourselves:
And you may ask yourself
How do I work this?
And you may ask yourself
Where is that large automobile?
And you may tell yourself
This is not my beautiful house!
And you may tell yourself
This is not my beautiful wife!
Letting the days go by/let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by/water flowing underground
Into the blue again/after the money’s gone
Once in a lifetime/water flowing underground.
Now thats wisdom, David Byrne and Talking Heads
4 Dec 2011, 22:53 pm
@CoachPete(CoachPete)-132: yeah I saw that the other day when Robzim posted it.. I’ve sat in that lounge in Wilderness where that interview was taken… nice place as any for a man to while away his last few years or decades on this little paradise of a planet we call mother earth…
In fact another mutual friend who has bought into that same Wilderness setup told me today he’s off to settle up and settle down there next year.. at least they got their heads screwed on straight.. they know a good setup when they see it and how to get out this mad frenzy of a crash and burn disaster that is about to unfold…
4 Dec 2011, 22:54 pm
@Treehugger(Treehugger)-136: Lol. President Hu Jintao and Premier Wen Jiabao are expected to retire, along with nearly half of the 25-member Politburo. Who or what takes over and how China reacts is anybody’s guess…
4 Dec 2011, 22:56 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-141:
He sounds like the same old Donald. As a pikkie surfer he used to scare me .
I used to sit on the railing above Glenn beach and watch him never daring to go down to the beach
He still has that dry sense of humor and speaks his mind
not to mention he was fearless
4 Dec 2011, 22:56 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-129: Its a very nice song.. one of my favorites..
4 Dec 2011, 22:57 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-142:
The Red army
4 Dec 2011, 22:57 pm
@cab(cab)-137: lol, I reckon even blesbok knows more than these vegan pagans and their hallucinogenic fantasies about Mithra and fish and there meaning of life… Fark me when you get an answer, expecting great wisdom and then nothing more than Joe Cocker in return it helluva disappointing… I don’t even like Joe Cocker.
4 Dec 2011, 23:01 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-146:
yeah i dont listen to the lyrics much, just like the music, but enjoyed cocker alot, hard-worn gravelly voice, better than dylan, crikey moses, horrific voice and that bladdy harmonica honky tonk **** and they all rate him as siener van rensurg in the fear-s-ah.
4 Dec 2011, 23:02 pm
@CoachPete(CoachPete)-145: Don’t joke… With the gender imbalance in China and something approaching 20 million more men than women, a hunger fro raw materials, and economic meltdown everywhere, you get a recipe ripe for conquest…
4 Dec 2011, 23:03 pm
@CoachPete(CoachPete)-143:
he’s a total down to earth dude.. fearless in the water but on land a gentle unassuming soul … easy to talk to and easy to get along with…
btw to digress a little I see one of keohane’s heart throbs on the twitterati circuit is a blond knockout fitness fundi chickeedee .. well I met Percy’s ex again today.. Goodness Gracious that chic is outright beauty personified.. poor Percy – she is absolute beauty incarnate ..
4 Dec 2011, 23:05 pm
@cab(cab)-147: Joe Cocker is a soppy fool… Yeah the Jester Zim-meister can’t sing for shy.te but he can string a few songwords together like most can’t even come close to…
Other than Springsteen…
Or Bob Seger…
4 Dec 2011, 23:06 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-148:
and a hunger for western women
4 Dec 2011, 23:13 pm
nothing wrong with Joe Cocker.. he made Mc Cartney’s ‘With a little help from my friends’ an ALL time classic and did it better than anyone else could have done it with far more soul and feeling and passion than Lennon – McCartney could have done in a thousand million years…
4 Dec 2011, 23:15 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-150:
holy moly another dylan fan, yessus this oke must have had some sort of cult following in the USA and the RSA, was there some sort of surfer tripartite exchange program between california, durbs and the cape? pretentious crud. no hell there been far better music to come out of the states, the way it should be played with the gut, by the black r&b musos well before pseuds like bob.
4 Dec 2011, 23:19 pm
went to go watch a few bands the other night, but alot of them reverting back to this fok music solo songwriter poetry ****, give me the energy of the band any day, the working class fellas still the best, but also still wear that chip on their sleeves.
4 Dec 2011, 23:24 pm
Dylan is a genius.. the modern version of a Blake or Shakespeare.. that’s how close to genius that mad muther faker is… so much so that even those that were hailed as the forefront vanguard of political inter fusion between the lefty folk movement like Pete Seger and Joan Baez and Ginsberg and the rest looked up to this scrawny little 21 year old kid as their new found savior during the height of the M. Luther King black consciousness movement .. which he participated in initially then denounced and walked away from.. because he knew that was not him…
4 Dec 2011, 23:25 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-152: Springsteen would have done “With a little help from my friends” ten times better… His version of Pretty Flamingo makes Manfred Mann’s redundant…
4 Dec 2011, 23:28 pm
u gotta be out of your tree and seeing genius where there aint any…i;m with the pomegranites in the know that see it as rot mostly, but then again there was some prof of english over here who reckon he some kind of modern willie wiegelspies of iets. but that whole beat generation just stream of consciousness rubbish, mind as well be singing about his pet canary.
4 Dec 2011, 23:32 pm
@cab(cab)-153: The Master is no pseud… at all… His lyrics have more truth and power than many pagan vegan new age crystalgazing books put together… But yeah granted he couldn’t and can’t sing for shy.te.
Heck, the Byrds became a great band just by virtue of the fact that they did his songs justice when they performed them…
Nothing beats their version of Mr Tambourine Man… Nothing.
Hey ! Mr Tambourine Man, play a song for me
I’m not sleepy and there is no place I’m going to
Hey ! Mr Tambourine Man, play a song for me
In the jingle jangle morning I’ll come followin’ you.
4 Dec 2011, 23:36 pm
you obviously cannot recognize genius when it stares you in the face…
I met Richie Havens in Cape Town a few years back.. his favorite all time song is Hard Rain is a gonna fall .. that is perhaps one the most poignant all time classic folk / protest songs of all time with far more moving deep seated truth and compunction than ANY garbage upstart little Liverpudlian dockland group could come up with in a thousand lifetimes of song writing… and they knew it.. that why they bow at the maestro’s feet when it comes down to genius stakes…
Same as all the Brit guitarists bowed at Hendrix feet.. Clapton, Page, Beck, Richards, Townshend all bowed at Hendrix feet.. so did Lennon – McCartney, and the rest of the Brit rock generation bow at the master Dylan feet in song writing hierarchy…
4 Dec 2011, 23:38 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-158:
And Turn turn Turn ageless
4 Dec 2011, 23:39 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-156:
the Woodstock version of With Little Help from my Friends by Cocker was a master performance out of this planet and Springsteen would never come close to replicating or putting that much soul or feeling into that song as Cocker did that day… go watch it again on u-tube if you can find it your backbone flesh gonna crawl.. and if it don’t then you no music fundi…
4 Dec 2011, 23:42 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-158:
Dylan can sing.. its just you pagan barbarians that got no f’ng ears… all you got are heathenish mouths that guzzle left over carrion from last nights BBQ
and Dylan is a veggie himself.. I betcha Springsteen might even be.. ain’t that gonna blow your cotton picking barbarous socks right off your stinky little piggy trotter feet ?
4 Dec 2011, 23:43 pm
yeah the beatles werent my cup of tea, mccartney too much of a happy-go-lucky pansie, but john lennon was brilliant, he’s songs were also far more understated than the self-involved pseudo-intellectual black turtleneck dylan. its true tho lennon did pay homage to dylan at one stage, tho thats when they started getting more mainstream and touring to the states. oasis probably the equivalent with the gallagher bros, pure genius, but probably too new for you.
4 Dec 2011, 23:46 pm
@CoachPete(CoachPete)-160: Jeez, but you got to laugh when you see videos of them performing… High as kites…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPqAvgN6Tyw
4 Dec 2011, 23:52 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-161: Cocker is a soppy gravel voice softcock… Not even in the league of John Fogerty a true gravelly voiced talent….
You talking absolute fairy tales if you think Dylan is a vegetarian… absolutely no chance… Neither Springsteen either… For that level of creativity and truth in their songs they need all the Vitamin B12 they can only get from copious amounts of red meat…
Yup, I would go to the extent of stating beyond a doubt that without eating red meat Dylan would never have been able to write the songs he does or has done… Categorically.
4 Dec 2011, 23:52 pm
ddint know lennon was a food nazi, thats enough to put one of his music alone, must have been when he started making all that dosh and giving peace a chance in yokos fanjita and all, but cant imagine too many veggies running around the merseyside docks in the 60s.
4 Dec 2011, 23:53 pm
@cab(cab)-163: Oasis…? WTF? They’re not even in the same league… Only Wonderwall is a song of note…
4 Dec 2011, 23:58 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-167: wonderwall is one of the best songs of all-time, hands down, no matter if they became slightly mainstream or whatever, that truly was a moment of genius.
5 Dec 2011, 00:00 am
@cab(cab)-166: Yeah, Lennon was screwy… Went vegetarian with Yoko and then started thinking he was messianic singing his off in the clouds Imagine… Bonkers. Went mad… Thats what happens if you think lentils are the same as a nice big steak.
5 Dec 2011, 00:03 am
Oasis Aussie pseudo rock and rollers.. no way near to the genius of Dylan.. all the Brit song writers bow to Dylan’s genius.. check how many songs and how many words he penned in a legendary career that has spanned more than half a century and still writing.. though he don’t have the depth now that he had at the time of his fresh brilliant genius as a 21 year old protege…
Half racked prejudice leaped forth put down all hate I screamed
Ah, but I was so much older then, I’m younger than that now.
There’s no black and white, left and right to me anymore; there’s only up and down and down is very close to the ground.
a poem is a naked person . . . some people say that I am a poet
How many roads must a man walk down before you can call him a man
Oh where have you been my blue eyed son, where have you been my darling young one
I been out in front of a dozen dead oceans
I been ten thousand miles in the mouth of a graveyard
Half of the people can be part right all of the time,
Some of the people can be all right part of the time,
But all the people can’t be all right all the time.
I think Abraham Lincoln said that.
I’ll let you be in my dreams if I can be in yours.
I said that.
Come ye Masters of war
once loved a woman, a child I am told
I gave her my heart but she wanted my soul.
Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don’t criticize
What you can’t understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is rapidly agin’.
All I really want to do is, baby, be friends with you.
I ain’t looking for you to feel like me, see like me, or be like me.
Oh God said to Abraham, Kill me a son.
Abe says, Man, you must be puttin’ me on.
The sun’s not yellow, it’s chicken.
Stop all this weeping, swallow your pride
You will not die, it’s not poison
Once upon a time you dressed so fine, threw the bums a dime in your prime, didn’t you
Yonder stands your orphan with his gun, crying like a fire in the sun.
Leave your stepping stones behind, something calls for you.
Forget the dead you’ve left, they will not follow you.
Oh, to dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free.
Take me disappearing, through the smoke rings of my mind, down the foggy ruins of time…
With all memory and fate driven deep beneath the waves, let me forget about today until tomorrow.
There’s no success like failure, and failure’s no success at all.
She knows too much to argue or to judge.
She’s got everything she needs, she’s an artist, she don’t look back.
She could take the dark out the nighttime and paint the daytime black.
Well, I try my best
To be just like I am
But everybody wants you
To be just like them
Johnny’s in the basement
Mixing up the medicine
I’m on the pavement
Thinking about the government
The man in the trenchcoat
Badge out, laid off
Says he’s got a bad cough
Wants to get it paid off
Look out kid
It’s somethin’ you did
God knows when
But you’re doin’ it again
5 Dec 2011, 00:04 am
@cab(cab)-168: Fark that… Was offered hospitality to one of two concerts: Oasis or Take That, at Wembley Stadium… I am even ashamed to say I ended up going to Take That – that is how much I “rate” Oasis…
5 Dec 2011, 00:04 am
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-169:
imagine was a fantastic album. he was far better than mcartney. the best stuff is the british sound, like their comedy its untouchable, but the yank bands coming back with a vengeance and probaby copied it too better effect with bands like the strokes, the white stripes and the killers – even that vampire weekend stuff ok.
5 Dec 2011, 00:07 am
Lennon was veggie long before Yoko.. George was veggie full on Hare Krishna devotee and they all went to visit Maharishi the founder of TM way back in around 66 or 67 long before Yoko..
Ev’rybody’s talking about
Bagism, Madism, Dragism, Shagism, Ragism, Tagism
This-ism, that-ism
ism ism ism
All we are saying is give peace a chance
All we are saying is give peace a chance
its goin’ great
Everybody’s talkin’ bout’ministers,
sinisters, banisters and canisters,
bishops and fishops and rabbis and pop eyes,
and byebye, byebyes
all we are saying is give peace a chance,
all we are saying is give peace a chance,
5 Dec 2011, 00:09 am
u need to open your mind and your ears, there was life before and after the 60s, tho not as you know it. oasis bladdy good band, but not much one for analysing the words and poetry, u just feel the words and music together, and that band is damn good.
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-171:
holy ****, you are completely berserk, take that is pure crud.
5 Dec 2011, 00:09 am
And I guess I lost my way
there were oh so many roads
I was living to run and running to live
Never worried about paying
or even how much I owed
Just then I saw a young hawk flyin’
and my soul began to rise
And pretty soon
My heart was singin’
And oh the wonder
We felt the lightning
And we waited on the thunder
Waited on the thunder
Towering waves
Will crash across your southern capes
Massive storms
Will reach your eastern shores
Fields of green
Will tumble through your summer days
By design
In your time
THE Detroit Master Songwriter….
5 Dec 2011, 00:10 am
Lennon was a soapy softy goody two shoes copy cat compared to Dylan.. Imagine is nowhere near to any of Dylan’s early stuff from 61 through to 67 Dylan was Master of all Masters in the song writing hierarchy of song writers..
You can’t compare the two in terms of depth and punch
5 Dec 2011, 00:10 am
lol, ou doosie is back in the 60s…
5 Dec 2011, 00:12 am
bullshit, dylan was a total goody 2shoes who decided it was a time to rebel, lennon came from a totally different background, u smoking your pipe again and blowing smoke holes out your ***.
5 Dec 2011, 00:13 am
@cab(cab)-172: Fark the rest… Killers are good… along with Gaslight Anthem and KOL…
Killers have some very good material already…. Excellent… Haven’t been to a concert of theirs yet…
Seen a video of them performing at Royal Albert Hall… Dustland Fairy Tale, Mr Brightside and When You Were Young nearly collapsed the building…
5 Dec 2011, 00:15 am
you just a Pom through and through .. that why you ain’t ever gonna understand Dylan.. nor anything remotely true to the heart.. its all pseudo punk rock Brit pom pom flat as a pannekoek bland bam bam bangers and mash – thats how much you can appreciate true soul music from the land of the free…
5 Dec 2011, 00:16 am
Lennon was farked in the head with his vegan hallucinations and Yoko… Totally overrated… McCartney was much better, even Harrison…
5 Dec 2011, 00:16 am
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-179:
killers the most mainstream of that lot, but they very good, tho their modern stuff is getting poor, didnt like human. that concert at the RAH must have been pretty fkn amazing, those are three fantastic songs.
5 Dec 2011, 00:18 am
i aint no pomegranite, but if you cant give credit where its due, you need your head read and got zero taste. music, comedy and pubs cannot be beat anywhere. the brits and african-american sounds is rock music at its pinnacle, the rest are footnotes.
5 Dec 2011, 00:18 am
time out
whenever you wanna know the answer to the universe go knock on somebody’s door who knows… and you won’t find it in any garbage riddled good book of bullshit baffling brainlessness either
5 Dec 2011, 00:20 am
next thing he going to come up with elvis ek se, even the blesbok was far superior…
5 Dec 2011, 00:22 am
@cab(cab)-182: Human is one of their best songs actually… Inspired by Hunter S Thompson… They broke the mould with that song… confused a lot of people with the doof duff wiggle wiggle… But very good lyrics.
5 Dec 2011, 00:22 am
Am out now but I leave with lyrics:
Well, I wonder which song they’re gonna play when we go.
I hope it’s something quiet and minor and peaceful and slow.
When we float out into the ether, into the Everlasting Arms,
I hope we don’t hear Marley’s chains we forged in life.
‘Cause the chains I been hearing now for most of my life,
The chains I been hearing now for most of my life.
Did you hear the ’59 Sound coming through on grandmother’s radio?
Did you hear the rattling chains in the hospital walls?
Did you hear the old gospel choir when they came to carry you over?
Did you hear your favorite song one last time?
5 Dec 2011, 00:24 am
Mc Cartney is a f’ng ponce deluxe and Lennon made that band without Lennon there was never gonna be a Beatles.. you could do away with McCartney and Harrison and Starsky but Lennon was the back bone of the Beatles.. and they all knew it…
Lennon had balls and a heart.. McCartney is one pseudo little moddly coddly Brit pop idol .. Harrison had depth and feeling but not the guts of Lennon..
But Dylan was and is streaks ahead of them by a few light years in comparison… Lennon the only one that ever came anywhere remotely close…
5 Dec 2011, 00:25 am
night night
5 Dec 2011, 06:02 am
for these poor contrary Constantinople type Xmas pagan ritual worshiping half baked so called christian soldiers who wanna continue befuddling their befuddled bewildered bewitched brains about who’s a veggie eating genius and who’s not, Robert Allen Zimmerman alias Bob Dylan is a vegetarian, its clearly stated in his biographical notes, and if you still can’t fathom truth from fallacy like you wanna pretend JC cooked cows and calves for his food which he did and could not do being brought up and educated in the strict Nasorean – Essene sect of non flesh eating Judaism along with his mentor and cousin – friend John the Baptist who was beheaded for his forthright unashamed telling of the truth, as Ch’rist was crucified for doing the same, then go google it all up on your new age information biblical pontifical reference Wikipedia if you can’t fathom fact from fiction.
While you confirming that Dylan is one go google how many other ‘famous vegetarians’ like Einstein and how many more there were/are, or google J’sus the Nasorean or the Essene Gospels for some wide awake re education you so patently and obnoxiously are in direct dire need of before you cook your fatted Xmas goose or gobble up your gobbledegook gobble wobble Xmas turkey pudding
5 Dec 2011, 08:34 am
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-190: There is sense in the midst of your ramblings. You are of course correct that ***** was in all likelihood a veggie and most certainly right that early Christianity co-opted many pagan festivals into its own calendar, Christmas being one of the end results (the latter established beyond all responable doubt by the very scholars over the years at universities who you seek to deride; how ironic).
As for the syuff re Dylan, the Beattles, etc. Who cares, people! Enjoy the music!
5 Dec 2011, 08:35 am
The ***** is J-es-us
5 Dec 2011, 08:52 am
@Michael(mikeybrass)-191: Fact is, everyone who isn’t totally ignorant knows all of this, but enjoys the festival aspect of the holidays, including Easter, which is possibly the biggest “amalgamation” of all the pagan festivals with Christian ones.
Still fun, particularly with the kids.
5 Dec 2011, 09:01 am
Party on, dude!
(Showing my age:-) )
5 Dec 2011, 09:03 am
@Michael(mikeybrass)-194: party on Wayne.
Have your say
You must be logged in to post a comment.