The one aspect we are discussing here is a central system, and I think David explained it quite nicely.

I would personally venture as far as to say that a central system will strengthen the individual unions, not weaken them (and your support for them).

I am also quite happy to follow a European model where clubs/unions qualify for SupeRugby PROVIDED the professional arms in each union is not owned and controlled by the amateur arm (and that they show a operational profit like the model they have in France). At most I reckon the amateur arm should own up to a maximum of 25% of a union not 51% (and more) as is currently the case.

It all comes down to accountability and responsibility which if you get that right, success will be an automatic by-product.

No-one is talking about destroying the unions, in fact, my whole idea is to ensure we look after all 14 (not just the big 5 as is currently the case).

i gotta go sorry man, chat laters, you too pa!

maybe i am wrong and the salaries being paid are unaffordable?

as for superrugby success rates, i would love a breakdown of the last 5 years rather than the comp in its entirety PA because the period where we have started to show regular success of our top three (not just one) is in this time.

sure, we lag but again, externals are just as much to blame. travel cannot be discounted and the fact that the lions won zero % and the cheetahs 27% obviously is an issue but the stronger unions are doing ok without central contracting?

i agree fully on the pro vs amateur debate PA, seriously. even at my rugby club thge politics are astounding but as i said, i will not simply transfer my support to a fancifully named new franchise which removes all the traditions i am attached to.

and that is the bottom line imo.

2 years ago it was published that the only union in SA that showed an actual operational profit was… wait for it… the GRIFFONS!

Now granted that was 2 years ago, I did not see much change from any union in the recent past to suggest that things are much better…

Unfortunately unions are very loathe to make their audited financials available (I wonder why…) so all we can go on is what is reported.

As for the various teams and countries performances…

Only ONE SA team averages a 50% win ration (Stormers). Sharks and Bulls are close behind but still, in the 40′s.

Brumbies and Tahs both average in the mid to high 50′s, with the Reds on 48%.

If memory serves the Force started the same time as the Cheetahs in SupeRugby? Force 36% win ration, Cheetahs 27%

NZ is a different story altogether, two teams are in the 60′s (Saders & Blues) with Canes in the 50′s.Chiefs and Highlanders are mid 40′s.

Overall, Kiwi’s win 54% of their matches (central contracting model), Aus 43% (including the newbies Rebels which won only 19% and they have no local competition or depth) and SA…39%

We are almost 20% behind the Kiwi’s considering rugby as a whole in both countries! And it shows at test level too.

As far as ‘pet projects’ go…

Investing millions into any business is hardly what I would call a ‘pet project’ – it will be 100% success driven to get a ROI. In fact the term ‘pet project’ much easier describes the current situations where rugby (teams) is a pet project of hopefully out of depth amateurs who has zero financial or operational accountability.

Here is what I struggle to get.

SA Rugby runs like government in this country where incompetent idiots are voted into power.

Every single day I have to hear about how pathetic and useless our government is because of this (zero accountability, squandering of resources and funds and little actual success).

Yet most on here now wants to ‘protect’ that system in rugby? Because of what? Emotional attachment?

Go figure.

My point is quite simple.

Get rid of amateurism in rugby, it is going to destroy the game.

no bud, you cannot be referring to the sharks? stormers maybe?

obviously aussie audiences increased, they now have a domestic comp but that isnt the full story pa, what were the audience numbers?

the aussies have what, two competitive teams and the kiwis have three at a push?
and i dont really consider the canes or chiefs or highlanders as perennial contenders do you?
whilst the sharks, bulls and stormers have all been contenders over the last few years?
yes, the aussies won last year because of a ridiculous format that punishes the stronger conferences (nz and sa) and rewards them. its no coincidence they hadnt supplied a finalist in years before last year.

no bud, externals must be taken into account and whilst there is room for improvement i personally am not willing to simply transfer my support, generated over decades, to some fanciful new team that is a businessmans pet project and i suspect i am in the majority here.

why do you think the varsity cup is such a success crowds wise? ready made support base bud.
and it draws regular crowds the kiwis and aussies wish they had for ANY rugby.

Profitable? Unfortunately not. More profitable than the Kiwis and Aussies, perhaps – but every single union in SA with the exception of the Bulls I imagine is struggling to keep themselves afloat.

Crowd numbers were actually down in 2011 from 2010 – the only increase in numbers were Australian TV audience numbers – the rest all took a dip.

3 out of the last 5 – good show on the face of it, but when you consider only 3 of 5 franchises (most of the time only 2) are anywhere close to competitive then it paints a different picture.

SA has infinitely more resources than Aus and Kiwi’s combined, and look at where we find ourselves year after year.

If this is something that is working, I would hate to see failure.

lets rather have a chat about it bud?

we have won 3 out of the last 5 superrugby titles so that part seems to be functioning well.

our unions are infinitely more profitable than the kiwi unions (barring the loser lions of course but they seem to getting back on track).

crowd numbers in sa dwarf those of anywhere in the southern hemisphere. (i think the stormers drew nearly as many spectators as the whole aussie conference last year? maybe i am wrong on this one though)

we have appointed a coach who may take us to another level…or not? lets see.

yes, i want a better run central body but i am an african and history has taught me that centrally run bodies with too much clout are a recipe for disaster.

Seeing as though I built the damn thing, I would have to have tried all three out and yip, as far as I know there are only three people that have nailed the drop off, with bod and bod jnr being two of them.

Most downhillers would breeze it, but they couldnt be bothered getting up that mountain..

Here is a question…

Do you believe the current setup in SA is working?

Simple yes or no.

but who wants to “manage” a team where you have no say over the playing staff?

no one.

so again, central contracting will lead to issues.

its no wonder they are leaving out the highlanders, they have done it for years already. would you buy the canes when you know the blues and crusaders will be loaded with all blacks and you will get scraps?

no bud, you wouldnt.

and anyways, that announcement was made last year already, where is the news on the rush of investors?

hmmm…….

Auckland – The New Zealand Rugby Union has opened the path to outside investment in their Super rugby franchises, inviting bidders to buy management licenses in four of the union’s five teams in the southern hemisphere competition from 2013.

The NZRU would retain the ownership of the Auckland Blues, Waikato Chiefs, Wellington Hurricanes and Canterbury Crusaders and be responsible for contracting of playing and coaching staff, the NZRU said in a statement on Friday.

The Otago Highlanders, the other New Zealand side in the southern hemisphere competition, would not be included, NZRU chief executive Steve Tew said in the statement, as they were already seeking other opportunities.

“This is an early phase to get a real view of the level of interest in an opportunity to be associated with New Zealand’s brand of rugby and what is considered to be the world’s best rugby competition,” Tew said.

The decision has been mooted for some time by the NZRU, who have been forced at various times to bail out all of the Super rugby teams, which are run by the provinces, and a number of domestic provincial sides.

The NZRU will also underwrite about NZ$10 million ($7.8 million) of the operating loss from the recent rugby World Cup in New Zealand. Tew said during the tournament the NZRU stood to lose about NZ$13 million this year because of the World Cup cutting into sponsorship, television and gate revenues.

The successful licensee would have the right to manage, operate, select and promote the team brand and the matches played by that team.

Their revenue-generating opportunities would include naming rights and non-rugby activities, but the teams would have to remain in New Zealand as part of the license agreement.

It is like when I try to fix the iron, I end up with spare parts and then have to chuck the whole thing away!

The current 5 teams have been at the top of the tree for many years and no matter how kuk the Lions or Cheetahs do, they still miles better than whoever is next in line.

what a load of bollocks.

aus and nz franchises are practically broke, ever sit back in that bush island and wonder why?

its because they dont really have a fanatical fan base for their franchises compared to the traditional big five provinces in south africa so they attract very few fans to the games and consequently very few sponsors comparitively.

funnily enough, this seems to be changing in aus whilst the nz franchises drown but thats because oz never had traditional regional structures so people are jumping on board now and it is benefitting oz massively whilst we japies pay for their rugby to grow.

perhaps instead of laughing they should be thanking us, the rugby supporting public of south africa, who make up 60-70% of the viewership and revenue stream of sanzar rugby?

as for central contracting,*** that. we arent commies. do we really want a team like the crusaders loaded with bok players so it can win superrugby every year whilst the rest of the teams are left to wallow in mid table mediocrity?

who decides which team will be the special one?
saru?

lmao!

nah, rather embrace your new convict chums and celebrate with them whilst they laugh at us, we undersatnd they know fokkol about class or tradition in rugby because they dont have any compared to us.

@PissAnt-330: seriously PA?

no, i must disagree with you here.

why should i suddenly become a supporter of some businessmans wet dream?

not even the premier league in pomland works that way, there is a reason abromobitch bought chelsea and not some fanciful new team whose support he could not predict.

FFS are SARU that dumb that they never learned NOTOPNE FREAKING THING from the Southern Spears?
They really are just a bunch of AMATEURS. and I say that in the nastiest possible way. they really just have no clue when it comes to business, do they? I would have expected a lawyer like Hoskins to know better…

His comments about “Sthern clubs playing to win ……….. was exactly word for word the quote from Graham Henry a month ago. C’mon Gary. Something new please.