Ranger slapped with suspension
12 Mar 2012
Blues winger Rene Ranger has been banned for two weeks for a dangerous tackle on Bulls No 11 Bjorn Basson.
The Sanzar judicial officer Mike Heron has accepted a guilty plea from Ranger for contravening Law 10.4 (e) dangerous tackling. Ranger was cited after he made late and dangerous contact with Basson in the 79th minute of the match between the Bulls and Blues last Saturday.
After reviewing footage of the incident, Heron decided that a two-week ban would be sufficient.
‘[The footage] shows Rene Ranger diving towards the other player, who was also diving to score the try, and ultimately hitting the player with his shoulder on the back of the player. At that point, the tackle did not involve his arms and was late. A careful review of at least one angle shows that Ranger initially was attempting to use his arms and appeared to launch towards the other player while that other player was in the air.
‘In my view, Ranger was initially attempting to tackle the Bulls No 11 but had to pull out as the Bulls player was too close to the ground. The result was that Ranger’s arms were not used in the tackle. In my view the tackle was reckless, and late (but this was a dynamic and very fast moving situation).
‘I accept Ranger’s account that he was attempting a legitimate tackle and had no intention of injuring the Bulls player. The referee and assistant referee’s report reflect a similar impression as the citing commissioner, although concentrate on the lack of attempt to use the arms and the use of the shoulder.
‘I note that the player was issued a yellow card and a white card was also issued. I have an informal medical report to the effect that the Bulls player has injured ligaments in his left shoulder and has bruised ribs on the left side (I am unable to determine whether these resulted from the tackle although that is a fair inference).
‘In all the circumstances, I find that the tackle was lower end in terms of the entry point for Law 10.4(e). That gives an entry point of two weeks. The player has one previous disciplinary matter of a similar nature. By coincidence it occurred at the same ground against the same team in 2009. He received a one week sanction. He does not, therefore, have the benefit of a completely clean record.
‘The effect on the Bulls player and the need for general deterrence provide some aggravation, albeit modest in the circumstances. The player was contrite and sensibly accepted that the tackle was dangerous. He and the coach put forward an explanation, which was supported by the footage,’ concluded Heron.
151 Comments
11 Mar 2012, 08:43 am
Dragons!!
11 Mar 2012, 08:43 am
I did not follow the match thread, but my understanding of the laws here means Walsh made a terrible mistake.
There should have been a penalty on the halfway for the Bulls following this try.
11 Mar 2012, 08:44 am
If Morne had his kicking boots on this game would’ve been a comfortable Bulls victory….getting the bonus point right at the death may yet prove to be telling later on….what is of great concern is how the kiwi teams are winning away from home…
11 Mar 2012, 08:46 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-2: You’re right, it would’ve made for another interesting couple of minutes if the Bulls could hold on through the phases….
11 Mar 2012, 09:28 am
Next time the oke musnt use a bottle, use something better.
11 Mar 2012, 09:31 am
Bulls fans showing off their “ifs”, should’ve and would haves! Bulls lost and morne had his chances….you can’t have it back if you miss. It seems the bulls fans think they ate entitled to another go.
11 Mar 2012, 09:31 am
But gee ranger can foot it!
11 Mar 2012, 09:32 am
I think the bulls should be docked points for unruly behaviour!
11 Mar 2012, 09:46 am
What disappointed me was the fact that Potgieter and C J Stander – two of my favourite up and comers – actually lost some ground in this encounter with only Spies (definitely not one of my favourite players) coming out of the match with anything to show for a change. I can’t think of any other player who came out with any merit.
Whether Ranger deserved the Red Card I don’t know. To my mind he was was trying to make a deliberate tackle on Basson to push him out/dislodge the ball and couldn’t get his hands under Bjorn because he was so low. What is a rugby player supposed to do in that position? Give him a curtsy and wave him through?
11 Mar 2012, 09:49 am
@wallabie.(wallabie.)-8: No, we were trying to do the world a favour.
11 Mar 2012, 09:56 am
@BlueBlood(BlueBlood)-10: idiot.
11 Mar 2012, 10:02 am
@stormer in a teacup(stormer in a teacup)-11: Just getting ourselves ready for Brycie, IF he ever comes to S.A. again.
11 Mar 2012, 10:06 am
@BlueBlood(BlueBlood)-12:
Brycie has done his work,
banked his reward,
and will never bother setting foot in Moftus ever again. (why would anyone for that matter).
Happy in the knowledge that he played his part, in bringing Bill home.
11 Mar 2012, 10:07 am
You live and learn.
It seems I am wrong and old Walsh actually got it right.
Asked a ref about the incident and it cleared it up.
Ranger was penalised for an offence ‘while the try was being scored’ (he was cited for a dangerous tackle) not for foul play FOLLOWING a try being scored which would have resulted in a penalty on the halfway.
If anything, Walsh could only have awarded a penalty try which would have given Morne an easier conversion but they would still have lost.
Sorry Steve, my mistake – beers on me!
11 Mar 2012, 10:08 am
@grunk(grunk)-9:
Spies was good last night – or rather, better than before. Also disappointed in Stander – really rate that lad.
11 Mar 2012, 10:23 am
I also felt he went for the tackle….big whoooha over nothing……execution maybe a bit bad at end.
I also felt that had Morne kicked more over the blues would score more tries…..just my feeling….they did just enough to secure the win…..
Same as if the try in WC 2007 was given to England we would just score more!
11 Mar 2012, 10:37 am
Well does anyone remember Rene Ranger shoulder charging Derick Kuun in the jaw in the previous Bulls vs Blues at Loftus? Ranger came off scott free.
Now I really love it when players try to hurt eachother
, but little cheapshots I dont respect,
I love it when a player can destroy another within the law, like Bakkies’ clearout on Adam Jones in the BIL series, or his clearout on Ben Kay in the 2007 RWC final, or when Stegmann crocodile rolled Bismarck’s head into the ground in the first week.
But this kind of play just doesn’t sit well.
11 Mar 2012, 10:39 am
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-17:
oh yeah Ranger gave Derick Kuun a mild concussion too.
11 Mar 2012, 10:41 am
@grunk(grunk)-9:
Ranger dove through the air tucking his elbow in and landing with the full force directed through his shoulder… that’s not a tackle. The JO agrees.
11 Mar 2012, 11:01 am
How do you tackle a player who is practically crawling toward the try line?
that how low was Basson,
11 Mar 2012, 11:01 am
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-19:
Ranger will be dealt with – but I must say I am quite disappointed by the silence in mainstream media and the Bulls PR department on the bottle throwing idiot at the end of the game.
It is disgusting.
Only rugby356 is running anything on this – I had to read about it from a NZ site.
At least Pierre Spies tweeted an apology to Mealamu – and good on the man for doing so, but this apology and condemnation should rather come from the Bulls union as well as all our journalists who reaches a far wider audience.
11 Mar 2012, 11:06 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-21:
Yes, I agree, perhaps they will still do it, preferrably within 24 hours. Perhaps they don’t won’t to draw any more attention to it. If they did issue a formal apology it would make many more headlines.
Anyways, Im not really impressed with remarks such as Garth’s above here, but ok.
11 Mar 2012, 11:07 am
won’t is want
as they are wont to do
11 Mar 2012, 11:12 am
Much ado about nuttin.
11 Mar 2012, 11:16 am
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-22:
As I say that – a media release from the Bulls pops into my email inbox!
My apologies to the union, I just got so used to them being a lot quicker than this!
11 Mar 2012, 11:17 am
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-22:
Garth?
11 Mar 2012, 11:19 am
@Hondo(Hondo)-20:
Agree.
The other point to consider is that Ranger “hit” Basson while he was in the act of scoring his try, not AFTER he scored the try.
11 Mar 2012, 11:24 am
@nama1(nama1)-27:
So it’s ok to shouldercharge a guy as long as he is low to the ground, or iin the act of scoring a try?
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-25:
Hehe, ja sien haastige hondjie.
11 Mar 2012, 11:26 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-26:
..on the asscomb thread.
11 Mar 2012, 11:29 am
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-29:
Oh ok.
11 Mar 2012, 11:30 am
Keven taught Chilliboy a lesson! Chilli you are 5 years behind my boytjie! Bissie all the way @ Heyneke!!!!!!
11 Mar 2012, 11:50 am
Pissant
Rather bury the issue and deal severely with the perpetrator behind the scenes. A life ban and strict warnings to other fans to eradicate this kind of behavior.
No need to make it a media issue and thereby draw more attention to it. All about managing the brand.
11 Mar 2012, 12:00 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-32:
Disagree, if you want to send a strict warning to spectators this incident should get as much coverage as it can get.
We are not the Aussies, we do not ‘handle matters behind the scenes’ when it comes to incidents like this.
Luckily, the Bulls named and shamed this person by publishing his name too.
A very clear, and very public message (not just in words) from the union will do more for the reputation of the brand than keeping quiet about it.
11 Mar 2012, 12:03 pm
For the record, very impressed with how they did end up handling it – guy was taken to the cops and a charge was laid against him last night.
11 Mar 2012, 12:07 pm
Pissant
The detractors don’t care about the message. They just jump on any opportunity to criticize. And any article on the topic just gives them that opportunity.
11 Mar 2012, 12:10 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-35:
Well it should be criticized. More importantly it should be dealt with not only relevant to the incident, but how it was allowed to happen and what will be done to prevent any similar incident every happening again.
To their credit the Bulls accepted responsibility, aplogised and send a clear message not only how they will go about dealing with security in future, but how offenders will face the full force of the law.
11 Mar 2012, 12:12 pm
PA…
Please ask you ref friend to quote actual laws to support his interpretation… that distinguishes between the two…
Nama…
You go on about him being so close to the ground… and indeed he was… so there was absolutely no chance of ranger preventing the try… which adds to the malice of the incident imo…
my issue is that there was a time when you could not dive onto players scoring… it is happening more and more these days… guys going in with knees elbows shoulders… and refs are doing squat to protect the scorer… who is the most vulnerable and defenceless in that moment that any player can be…
it is one of these most cowardly things you can do on a rugby field imo…
it is only a matter of time before someone gets seriously injured this way… and when a player has his ribs, back or neck broken by a coward diving on him while or after scoring a try then you’ll all say they should have done something…
tell someone who gets paralysed it is a big whaahoo about nothing…
refs are told to police scrums etc… but are largely ignoring players taking cheap shots at scorers…
11 Mar 2012, 12:18 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-35:
There will be no stopping them anyway.
Our team itself has the proudest disciplinary standing and being the most tight-knit and well-meaning, humble group of players in the competition.
The Bulls are always willing to roll with the punches and gracious in defeat.
11 Mar 2012, 12:33 pm
Here my post on Friday night after reading about Stegman gonna be absent .. I must be getting a little psychic in my old age.. better I go use this new found psychic ability where it counts and stop wasting it on a useless rugby blog
25.ashampoopaloo:
9 Mar 2012, 23:19 pm Bulls gonna be exposed without Steggies.. this could bode a little bad for Bulletjie blou blou in die bulle kring.. miskien kom n ietsie bietjie dingetjie daar.. oops Oooo gaaaats.!!
11 Mar 2012, 12:38 pm
Heyneke must just can Morne Steyn.. he is hardly the fulcrum of a go ahead setup that Bok rugby should be aiming for.. gotta be Hougaard, Goosen at the pivotal half back role and a dynamic back line develop from there…
Stander played well but he was a lone range soldier at the coal face with Potgieter trying to emulate Schalk Burger, we got enough headless chicken operators we need some down and dirty invisible assassins the likes of Brussow and Stegman, without one of those in the mix and its a cake walk for the opposition.
11 Mar 2012, 12:51 pm
2nd game at Loftus this year and the 2nd time Barend van Graan has had to apologise to the rugby public. 1st it was the near stampede, now it is drunk bottle-throwing louts
11 Mar 2012, 12:51 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-35: This is not an opportunity – this is a situation that demands criticism. Teams and fans identify with each other and the way in which a team responds to this tell us about their culture. A public position here is important.
11 Mar 2012, 12:54 pm
it was one bad game for morne kicking wise, skop.
he will go away and work on this make no mistake.
11 Mar 2012, 12:57 pm
Morne’s kicking is not the be all and end all of SA rugby.. we had Morne and FdP at half back for entire latter part of 2009 Eoyt as well as 2010 and 2011 and where we land up.. stone f’ng last
Its enough of this backward rearguard thinking.. get some proper dynamic half back pairing going forward or else we doomed to another four years of going nowhere slowly..
11 Mar 2012, 12:58 pm
this blog sucks balls… i have better things to do today….
fark you ranger….
11 Mar 2012, 13:02 pm
The idiot has been dealt with and will be dealt with to the fullest extent of the law.
Let’s hope Rnager gets the treatment too.
Imteresting to see the usual suspects rolling their eyes and wailing like pregnant schoolgirls.
Aluta Continua.
11 Mar 2012, 13:04 pm
@ufo(ufo)-37:
Check it out on RW mate – it is covered there.
11 Mar 2012, 13:05 pm
perhaps you are right skop but meyer is obviously a pragmatic coaching type so doubt whether he will veer so far from scrpit considering where he starts with the boks competition wise and the fact he will have had so little time with them.
now is not the time for bold gaffie type experiments, which is just to be realistic insn’t it. certainly at eoyt we will see some bench roles and small opportunities for elton and goosen… maybe even patrick.
11 Mar 2012, 13:06 pm
Olivier was reduced to zero, only ones with some fire and zest were Kruger, Venter and Stander and Spies on occasion.. Basson also tried hard and scored 2 tries out of little.
Morne showed when the entire weight of the team is placed on his kicking boots he can go to pot just like the best of them.., so far rather have Goosen who at least got some magic in his overall game than a stagnant dead beat M. Steyn who cannot create a blue farthing from anything..
little unknown unheralded and unsuspecting Anscombe outplayed M. Steyn in every single facet on the night.. you’d think Anscombe was the composed long standing international and M. Steyn was the hopeless rookie.. yet it was precisely the other way around..
NZ breeding players like Anscombe, Barrett, Cruden .. and we got Goosen, Jantjies, Van Aswegen, Lambie to compete with.. time to step it up or get left behind.. again.
11 Mar 2012, 13:07 pm
Ha,righteous Saffies up in arms over a slightly botched Ranger tackle.
This coming from the acknowledged, worlds dirtiest rugby playing nation,
Too many incidents to recall, but any game involving Bakkies Botha for a start,biting of ears and other appendages over the years ,not to mention psycho Saffie supporters running on to rugby grounds ,aka Durban in 2002,as well as the sore loser bottle boy from yesterday(that would never happen in World Champ land by the way)
Get of your high Zebras Saffies
11 Mar 2012, 13:08 pm
Thanks bud…
But on mobile now with shakey connection… Will check it out tomorrow…
11 Mar 2012, 13:10 pm
.
.
vyftig…
11 Mar 2012, 13:20 pm
@ufo(ufo)-37:
The thing is that Ranger and Basson dived almost simutaneously. One to score a try and the other to prevent him from scoring. You can’t really suggest that Ranger should have stopped and let Basson score the try without even trying to prevent him from doing so. It was not as if Basson had already score the try and Ranger dived onto him a second or two later.
Did not George Gregan once win a test for the Wallabies doing exactly what Ranger did yesterday? He managed to knock the ball out of a diving opponent within the in-goal area in the last few seconds of that test.
I get your concern re injuries to players when someone dive onto a try scorer after he had already scored a try and I’m with you on that. However, imo the incident yesterday does not fall into that category.
11 Mar 2012, 13:27 pm
@nama1(nama1)-53:
good point on the timing, but you still got to use your arms.
11 Mar 2012, 13:33 pm
@bokke baiter(bokke baiter)-50:
Yeah…it’s much more civilized and fun to pelt innocent players with flour bombs from the height of a cropduster.
11 Mar 2012, 13:35 pm
@nama1(nama1)-53:
Yep, knowing Rangerhe should just get banned. Period.
How was he intending on stopping that try? With a well-placed head-butt?
Ranger has been taking cheapshots as long as I can remember and he also got away with a hightackle in the same game, so.
11 Mar 2012, 13:35 pm
lucky they were only flour bombs .. imagine they were real bombs .. coulda done some real damage..
Cane and his crew did wonders that tour changed the entire world sporting irregularities on its head and got the world to wake up for once.. even if only for a little while.
11 Mar 2012, 13:38 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-39:
Ok but before you open your practice: you could’ve just consulted me, I may not have been born in the helmet, but I have commonsense
Oh well, the bye is generous to us, I still see this young team shaping up and producing a few rampages this season yet.
11 Mar 2012, 13:39 pm
@nama1(nama1)-53: if you go into the games in week 1 robbie coleman the brumbies fullback also copped a knee ti the ribs from a force player AFTER he had dotted the ball down & i don’t recall any wailing about that incident an certainly the ref didn’t award a penalty to the brumbies.
if you look at basson’s first try gister a blues player also tried the same move but bjorn slid to quickly or passed him too quickly
11 Mar 2012, 13:45 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-58: it was high time Bulls got brought back to Terra firma they were starting to believe some of their own invincibility themselves
good reality check is mostly a good thing usually.. now they know they not the real deal yet and still got quite a little growing to do…
my middle son was born with the caul around his head so he the psychic one actually.., I just pretend to be.. but all you need is common sense to know when kak is gonna come calling.. and it seemed pretty much a calling card when both Stegman and Hougaard were missing for this game and poor exposed Morne Steyn had the entire Loftus breathing down his neck and bearing down on him… its no wonder Mr Ice cool nerves cracked apart at the seams.
11 Mar 2012, 13:46 pm
rules are rules, you want to allow head-highs, shoulder-charges, late or projectile tackles, as in years gone by then change them back, otherwise he will get cited. there was only going to be one outcome from the incident, which is basson was going to get hurt – that is what the rules try to prevent – incidentally weepu also put the knee in for bassons first try.
as for that loftus fool, sa rugby got a real problem with their rep with these idiots running around, dunno wtf they going to do.
11 Mar 2012, 13:51 pm
@ufo(ufo)-51:
Quite simply, penalty on the half way after a try being scored is awarded for foul play in the in-goal subsequent to the score.
Ranger was penalised for the tackle he made on Basson while he dived for the score, not for anything that happened after that.
It was a tackle offence like any other tackle offence (high, tip etc) – so the punishment is penalty (if outside in-goal) or penalty try if the illegal tackle prevented the try being scored (which it did not).
Walsh made the right call.
11 Mar 2012, 13:54 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-60:
Ja, Kleuter mentioned this about the young players in the team coming off an “easy”, rampant win against the Cheetahs.
Regarding our missing players, I think the team hasn’t been recently put through the shock of trying to find their feet without the luxury that Stegmann provides (look what happened in last year’s Currie Cup), CJ just doesn’t have the anticipation..yet. Although I wouldn’t mind seeing CJ start at 7.
AND then we had to deal with the Braids, the Bulls can be lucky Jerome Kaino wasn’t around in the final 20 minutes, we would likely not have gotten a bonus point.
With Stegmann there and the ref keen to keep the breakdown conservative Steggies wouldn’t have had to do anything out of the ordinary to keep the Bulls attack up.
Hopefully he returns against Beau in 2 weeks to introduce him to our hard turf.
And Hougie, well, such an explosive player with inspiring defence and quick decision-making, even if he is still inexperienced and his tactical kicking needs work.
11 Mar 2012, 13:56 pm
Blues accepts apology from Bulls.
As a result of the unruly behaviour of a Vodacom Bulls fan at yesterday’s game at Loftus Versfeld, Blue Bulls Company CEO, Barend van Graan has telephonically apologised to Mr Bryce Anderson the manager of the Blues.
Van Graan comments;
“Our PRO Mr Ian Schwartz apologised to Blues captain Keven Mealamu at the post match conference. Mr Mealamu not only accepted his apology on behalf of the Company, but was also impressed with the way in which we immediately sorted out the matter. I have spoken to Mr. Anderson and apologised on behalf of our board of directors, managers, Bulls team and supporters. I am delighted that Mr. Anderson and Mr. Mealamu have accepted our apology for this unfortunate incident.”
11 Mar 2012, 13:57 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-56:
As long as you are going to be consistent, I have no problem. Don’t in future try to make excuses if WO or any other Bulls player dive onto an opponent AFTER a try is scored. Ask for that player to be banned as well.
Somehow I doubt that you will.
@Transformation(Transformation)-59:
There you go.
11 Mar 2012, 13:59 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-62:
but if its a penalty, whether ‘during’ or ‘after’ the try, what is the sanction?
11 Mar 2012, 14:02 pm
@nama1(nama1)-65:
Yeah, but, see, when has that ever happened? The Bulls are the gentlemen of the sport.
Like a team of sirs.
11 Mar 2012, 14:02 pm
@cab(cab)-66:
Penalty on the restart.
11 Mar 2012, 14:06 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-68:
yeah but in this case time is up, and it always used to be that time was not up so long as there was a penalty. i think spiesie was moaning cos if they were given a penalty, they could have run it rather than kicked it and scored another try, unlikely and they didnt deserve it, but interesting nevertheless. you cant blame walsh tho, these things are so rare, tho it must have happened before.
11 Mar 2012, 14:06 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-64:
Yeah happy ending.
The COO apologized to the captain,
the HPM apologized to the caoch,
the CEO apologized to the team manager,
the BBC issued a statement,
Mr whatever has the charge laid against him and arrested immediately.
Gaaf. End of story.
Bulls are classy, what can I say?
11 Mar 2012, 14:07 pm
@cab(cab)-66:
Think of it as playing a penalty advantage for the attacking team.
If the try was not scored by Basson (i.e. ball knocked out of his hands by this tackle) Walsh would have issued the yellow, and awarded a penalty try (foul play in the in-goal).
The try was however scored even with the illegal tackle – Walsh could have awarded a penalty try even if the try was scored which would just have meant an easier conversion.
The tackle happened while he was scoring the try (if you actually view video evidence you will see both players in the air, committed, just before Basson touches down).
For a penalty to be awarded on the halfway a player has to make himself guilty of foul play after the try being scored. For instance, try is scored, player jumps with his knees into the try scorers ribs (we have all seen this before). Essentially, for an action that happened after a try was scored.
Ranger was carded (and cited) for the no arms tackle on Basson, not for foul play after the try was scored.
If this was not the end of the game, try would have stood (of course), Blues would have been down to 14 men and nothing more.
11 Mar 2012, 14:08 pm
@cab(cab)-69:
no, as they said above here, the incident didnt follow the try and the final kick was after the siren, case closed.
Although just to be fair I would’ve had that as foul play “after” the try for its nature. Anyways, not like Im biased or anything :p
11 Mar 2012, 14:11 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-71:
What you mean? you can dislodge it in-goal.
11 Mar 2012, 14:20 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-73:
Not sure on your question but if the illegal tackle (an offence) resulted in Basson losing the ball before grounding it a penalty try would have (should have) been awarded.
Ranger was carded an cited for an offence to stop a try being scored (illegal/dangerous tackle), not for dirty play after the try was scored (which would have gotten them a penalty on halfway).
11 Mar 2012, 14:20 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-71:
ok, i think i understand.
must say tho, the distinction between foul play committed ‘during’ and ‘after’ seems to be a very grey and arbitary one. both were committed in the in-goal area in the process of scoring a try, the timing issue is splitting hairs and imo there is possibly also a good case to be made that while they might have been in the air at the same time, the shoulder hit basson just after he was over.
11 Mar 2012, 14:23 pm
@cab(cab)-75:
I think 74 explains it better in pain English!
11 Mar 2012, 14:23 pm
Yes it was pain-full but even PLAIN English will work…
11 Mar 2012, 14:26 pm
Rugby got one thousand and one laws .. you need a doctorate in rugby science before you qualified to count yourself a rugby boff… and every boff and his poodle pup reckon they know the laws better than the next one.. meantime its all a little grey at the best of times and left open to the ‘ref’s interpretation’ at end of the day.. if Walsh had awarded a penalty on halfway line another hoopla song and dance about what exactly is written in the holy IRB grail of one thousand and one laws would have entailed.. just imagine Bulls scored a try as an end result of that ‘wrong’ call?
I once sent an email to Jonathan Kaplan about my brothers sons school rugby game where the kick off was short but opposing team played it and knocked on.. brothers sons team collected the knock on and attacked for a try but ref called them back for a scrum on halfway line.. My brothers argument is opposing team played the ball and forfeited any advantage and knocked on.. or something like that .. can’t quite remember the exact ramifications of the incident. I asked Kaplan and he said ref was right to call them back for scrum because the first fault for short kick off overrides second fault for knock on.. but my common sense says where is the advantage.. at end of the day ref made a call.. wrong or right according to some or other statutory law.. but which one is actually correct ??
The last WC was a litany of bad or erroneous calls issued by ref’s with all manner of either solicited or else subtle ulterior agendas over ruling their supposedly unbiased minds… and bottom line is ref decides what goes down and what stays up at the end of the day.. that’s about as law abiding as this game has become…
It is pretty much the man with the penny whistle in his mouth calls the shots in the moment and that’s about how it makes or breaks down.
11 Mar 2012, 14:32 pm
well thats exactly the problem when the laws are grey as in the example you put forward and in the example here, welsh applied a very fine or subtle interpretation, which to my mind makes no sense, if there is a penalty committed in-goal it should be the try and then a penalty to follow, otherwise ther is no sanction, instead it almost seems as walsh has allowed bias to enter into it in supposedly penalising ranger (and citing him, a seperate offence), but then not actually giving any sanction, which might have allowed the bulls another bite at the cherry and possibly an undeserved unlikely victory.
11 Mar 2012, 14:34 pm
@nama1(nama1)-53:
It was Wilson in 1994, but both him and Gregen were nearly upright
Ranger is a dirty player no doubt, my concern is however is why wasn’t JP cited when he hit Sadie off the ball and drove him to the floor head first?
11 Mar 2012, 14:40 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-39:
I for one do rate Stegmann, and highly at that, add his injury to Hougaard’s suspension and a foreign referee, only a fool would have bet on the Bulls
Or an avid Bull supporter
11 Mar 2012, 14:46 pm
If it was Jonker blowing the game he probably would have given Bulls another bite of the cherry and awarded Bulls a penalty on half way line.. then all Bulls and saffa supporters would be over the moon if Bulls somehow created a miracle victory from a down and out impending loss
But it wasn’t Jonker it was Walsh.. and the argument rages on.. was it a penalty after the try or before the try, after final hooter or within final play before last play was concluded..
Ultimately the statutory laws have to be consulted… Walsh should stop the game.. go to TMO and ask him to look up Law No. 997.3 (b)-x to the power of z, and rule on whether he must award a following penalty or call the game klaar gelag there and then..
If its a saffa TMO like Meuwersen or Veldsman sitting in the hot box he probably read the IRB law 997.3 (b) – x to the power of z to read that he must award a following penalty.. If its a non saffa ref in the TMO box he probably say call it a day and get the fck outa here….
That’s about how accurate some of these absolute Newtonian laws of thou shalt award this a way or that a way gets ruled in the moment by the presiding ref on the day.
Just like Joubert gave Kaino and McCaw clear right of way when spoiling and sealing off French attack ball in the WC final in the red zone because the favorite sentimental outcome was an AB win and had France stolen the show all hell would have come cascading down under such prevailing unsought of circumstances..
11 Mar 2012, 14:47 pm
@Hondo(Hondo)-81: you gotta be a bloody billionaire by now with all the easy money you make at Ladbrokes stupendous expense.
11 Mar 2012, 14:48 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-63:
Did you watch Brussow at the Brumbies under a Kiwi referee?
Phil Kearn was singing his praises with superlatives the entire game, and yes, he is a notch smarter than Steggie but the Bulls forward are good at masking Steggie’s infraction at a 80% rate at least from the referees. ( no need for them to do it with Jonker, Joubert and Lawrence)
11 Mar 2012, 14:52 pm
nah i dont think bulls deserved to win, but it remains an iffy decision.
imo the best thing rugby could is to simplifiy the rules totally, i.e. take the ref as much out of it as possible, use the tv ref armed with slo-mo and the rule book (in a simplified version), simplify entire swathes of the law, offence in-goal = penalty on halfway end of, get rid of the trivial laws too.
11 Mar 2012, 14:55 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-83:
Wrong!
1. First I published my prediction here on Thursday, you couln read it for yourself
2. I restricted myself to the Super Rugby’s SA teams only and the Six Nations matches
The NZ-Aus matches in 2012 are highly unpredictable with plenty upsets, I expected you and Nama1 to ask the same question: why do all the upset happened there and under foreign referees + J. Peiper?
When you figure it out you’ll realise it’s not that complicated
11 Mar 2012, 14:58 pm
wtf newton got to do with the irb rule book now?
if there were no rules there wouldn’t be a game.
11 Mar 2012, 14:59 pm
Can they first just simplify the scrums. Enough of these silly scrum penalties which frankly can go either way and which can determine the outcome of a match at the refs’ whims.
This is rugby. We want to see scrums moering each other. If that means they wheel, or if that means the prop puts his arm on the ground, or if that means the loosehead scrums in on the tighthead, well so be it, that’s what scrumming is all about. Let them push each other into oblivion.
But enough of the shrill blasts of the whistle at almost every scrum!
11 Mar 2012, 15:00 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-82:
SA TMO didn’t cite JP for a spear T off the ball on Sadie, a SA TMO didn’t call Elton Jantjies for a head butt on Johan Goosen
What is the ‘justification’ for it?
11 Mar 2012, 15:03 pm
And jeez, don’t even get me started on the breakdowns…
We all want to see free flowing, phase rugby. Not this boring stop start penalty driven rugby that we are seeing thanks to the refs’ over zealous pinging of the breakdowns.
Diving off feet, coming in from the side, no daylight, tackler assist, etc etc you need a BSc Breakdown to know what’s going on these days.
This is rugby, we want to see them moer each other and most of all we want to see the game flow!
Nothing worse than when a team is attacking, building up some momentum, only for the ref to flui fluit and blow up the attacking team for some silly infringement which hardly impacts on the game.
11 Mar 2012, 15:04 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-88:
that is a perfect example, the breakdown is another area which i think needs rules that require less regulation from the referee – but the problem here is they want the game to be more open and faster – perversely this is the area where most penalties seem to occur.
11 Mar 2012, 15:05 pm
rugby got WAY too many laws.. simplify the entire bang shoot and get rid of at least half of them.. and correct.. get the goddamn ref as far out the way as possible – then it may become an even contest game where player performance wins and ref’s decision takes on a far distant insignificant back seat… as it stands now ref (and linesman to extent) got at least 75% more power than he at any time should potentially have
Cheetahs got done by ref… even the Aussie commentators agree
and some our refs here are outright biased
touch judge call can change entire game.. like yesterday touch judge called Strauss upright maul where he stripped ball off Sharks player as ‘high tackle’ and Sharks get 3 points against run of play.. whereas Lions might have scored a try from resultant attack momentum as a result of legitimate turnover.. Touch judge affected entire game if taken into small fraction context..
11 Mar 2012, 15:08 pm
@cab(cab)-87:
Funny enough, referees seemed to have difficulties even to control a simple game such as soccer
11 Mar 2012, 15:10 pm
maybe we also getting too simplistic here, next thing if anything goes at the scrums, they get wheeled to parrow and terug, and could deteriate into an almighty f-up.
11 Mar 2012, 15:15 pm
@Hondo(Hondo)-93:
geez and there’s a perfect example of an excuse for a sport, most those okes missed their true vacation on broadway, the only decent talent is that messie, christus he’s good.
11 Mar 2012, 15:17 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-92:
It started with Butch shoulder charging JP, then him and Strauss both lifted the token and peeled off the ball from him, could be he just gave it to them voluntarily.
So, it was involved a player of colour being hit illegally, it had to be punished, you’re old enough to know that
Same JP who got away with causing a concussion, go figure
11 Mar 2012, 15:18 pm
@cab(cab)-94: there must still be some modicum of regulation.
We just want to see 2 teams try push each other backwards. What the fook does touching before engaging help that? What about Chadwick getting blown up for moving his head before the engage? How does a prop putting his hand on the ground harm things? As long as it is safe I couldn’t care what goes on as long as the ball is put in, it comes out on either side and the game goes on.
I hate seeing scrum penalties, especially when they lead to points, as I feel the refs don’t know what is going on in the scrum and simply guess which way to lift their arm.
11 Mar 2012, 15:18 pm
JP’s actually become our only out-and-out strike runner in SA, not sure about a token, he’s big and strong and fast. let us overlook the occasional indiscretion of hoe…
11 Mar 2012, 15:20 pm
@cab(cab)-95:
Yep
btw, there is a yellow card mandatory for a faking a dive in the penalty area, when last have you seen one issued?
I only watch Liverpool so I am exempt from all the rest. of the travesty
11 Mar 2012, 15:20 pm
JP is proving to be one of the best 13s in SA at the moment. What a revelation at centre.
11 Mar 2012, 15:25 pm
@Hondo(Hondo)-99:
lol, didnt take you for a football fan hondo. i liked to play the game, but i dont like to watch it, unless there some genuine genius about – pele, best, matthews, marachuchu, beckham in prime and now messi who is pretty unbelievable – now what u got just expert divers? they dont even battle for the ball anymore – they used to have little terriers in midfield like souness, batty-boy etc.
11 Mar 2012, 15:26 pm
I check how these ref’s go kop toe all of a sardine they are Mr. F’ng know it all Einstein on any matters rugby
Mark Lawrence used to be a nice down to earth affable lekker ou doring okie kinda guy from next door.. Now he suddenly Mr. Bees f’ng knees you can’t tell me squat about what is right from wrong on a rugby field…
Jonathan Kaplan same kinda malady creep into his psychological reasoning
It got something to do with the untoward amount of ‘power’ that’s vested into the wind in their cheeks when suddenly the entire world is their oyster and at their finger tips and they can make or break an entire premonition of what might or might not have been had they turned the other cheek and blew it an entirely different direction instead..
The power vested in the man in the middle is way too weighty for any healthy simple game of fortune favoring the brave to ensue.. in these cases the brave can get fck’d out the back door and the scallywags can take all the spoils.. depending which color is draped across the ref’s closet back at the ranch around his back porch on most other Saturday afternoons..
11 Mar 2012, 15:31 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-100:
How many meters did he record yesterday with a ball in hand?
I’ve seen none,
JF’s average was 50m or so per game
11 Mar 2012, 15:32 pm
@Hondo(Hondo)-103: did you see the 3rd try? Was it a game where many metres were made by any back line player? Your racial bias is clouding your view.
11 Mar 2012, 15:34 pm
I still can’t work out which is a more boring spectator sport to be subjected to, poeftaball or skittle sticks.. at least poefta ball only lasts 90 odd minutes (plus the rest) for perhaps a nil all draw whereas skittle sticks can drag on another 5 days without a result at the far flung end of it all…
I seriously prefer a good game of snooker or ping pong .. at least those contests end in a result and there some seriously skillful exchanges and tactics along the way.
11 Mar 2012, 15:34 pm
lawrence is a naturally more affable character then kaplan, but the latter was pretty sharp, both know their rules, which is afterall their day job, they are professional referees and as such should be einstein on matters pertaining to rugby. i think they get paid pretty well so if you interesting on blaasing the vluitjie u may as well give it a go, but u got to understand that everyone always going to be unhappy with you pretyt much whatever you do, cos they are even more biased..
11 Mar 2012, 15:36 pm
Hope to grab something before the greatest show of the weekend, two Saffas in the Poms line up and one on the bench, that should be the Poms strongest team since 2003
11 Mar 2012, 15:37 pm
snooker?!?! agmefok, next thing u be championing darts, at least skittle sticks is a test of mental endurance and they klap that little rooi bang a decent distance, tho the blok-hom-dood keppler-wessels ODI used to strain the patience horrendously. didnt we used to have an oke called ‘slasher mckay’ or something, who was exactly the opposite? blok blok en blok alweer…
11 Mar 2012, 15:39 pm
snooker is very boring. like watching mould grow.
11 Mar 2012, 15:40 pm
Skop on point today!
11 Mar 2012, 15:43 pm
only in the uk do they call snooker and darts sports, liewefok, u get some 400-pound athlete outa huddersfield who training regimine is laager lifting and pie eating..
11 Mar 2012, 15:43 pm
@cab(cab)-106:
Both have their businesses and not relying on refereeing for a living, Kaplan is the best but not a popular choice lately with the IRB and ANZAR, Mark Lawrence is no way near his late Brother’s standards as a referee, he is better than Jonker and Joubert though
I only rate Kaplan, Peiper, Dickinson and Pollock, the rest are a disgrace.
11 Mar 2012, 15:46 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-104:
I stopped watching after 35 minutes, I said in advance that Lawrence will do the job for the Sharks and I got the margins right with the bookies in turn.
The rest is irrelevant
11 Mar 2012, 15:47 pm
@Hondo(Hondo)-112:
not so sure on pollock or bryce lawrence, the rest ok tho saffas tend to be a bit pedantic they do generally blow according to rules, walsh got a bit of a problem handling pressure. always get confused who the bugger was who told smit and the boks to go back to tryline and the irish went over for a win.
11 Mar 2012, 15:52 pm
JP made plenty meters yesterday quite a few, none more than when he cruised through the Lions midfield from broken play deep in his own half and offloaded for Bossies to score at the other end and seal Lions ultimate forlorn fate…
When he gets half a gap JP can hol through the middle and make some ground pretty sharply.. it was JP who drilled Bulls at Lotus last year in this same comp penultimate pool game to basically knock them out the semi’s when he screamed trough Bulls defenses to offload to Terblanche who had the honor of dotting down.. But JP made all the hard yards and ate up the majority of the field.. all on his own.
You should start watching rugby with a less convicted prejudice Herr Hondo then you might actually see which players carry the ball in open play with real intent and rewarded result then those who don’t and die with it or cough it up instead… like Schalk Burger at the WC quarter final showdown for instance.
11 Mar 2012, 15:57 pm
I don’t as a rule watch snooker or darts or tiddlywinks but I reckon as far as spectator sports go they probably on par with poeftaball or skittle sticks in levels of excitement and expertise. Pretty boring to say the least.
anyway out.. ain’t there some little NH comp called 6 nations rugby to go watch today or am I out of sync with the fixture times and dates?
11 Mar 2012, 15:59 pm
@cab(cab)-111: Won huuuuundred aaaan aaaaaayyyyyteeeee!!!!
11 Mar 2012, 16:14 pm
So the upsets and unpredictability of Super rugby continue.
Chiefs beat the Crusaders in Canterbury.
Blues beat the Bulls in Dutchville.
The Highlanders are unbeaten.
Now just imagine how much more exciting the comp would be without the PREDICTABLE bits – Force, Rebels, Lions and Cheetahs.
Only space for 12 teams maximum if we wan to keep guessing.
And they want to add an even weaker team into the mix?…
11 Mar 2012, 16:15 pm
@Hondo(Hondo)-113: so you didn’t even watch half the game yet you feel able to make all encompassing sweeping statements?
11 Mar 2012, 16:21 pm
Thanks PA…
But walsh’s own words contradict this and it seems to be ref-face-saving spin.. again
Walsh said to Spies… The issue is you WOULD get a penalty on halfway…
Spies says there is time
walsh says… but the coversion will be taken and time will be up…
(or words to that effect)
so walsh clearly believed a penalty would have been given except for time being up…
therefore I believe walsh was indeed wrong
11 Mar 2012, 16:26 pm
@ufo(ufo)-120: I agree with this. Walsh knew that a penalty was to be awarded from the half way line after the conversion. His issue however was that the time would be up.
But this is incorrect. Even after time is up, if a team is awarded a penalty, it is allowed to take it.
11 Mar 2012, 16:46 pm
I don’t understand all the moaning about the tackle on Basson.
Bakkies did worse things, but most condoned it as being hard. I just don’t get the whinging…
The Blues were far superior and deserved the win. I would be more concerned with the unruly supporters than the tackle.
11 Mar 2012, 16:51 pm
@Bill Reyts(Gumboots)-122: c’mon Bill. That’s like saying it’s ok to steal someone’s food just because they may be hungry.
Isolate.
The tackle was a bad one.
He has been punished.
He has been cited.
He will be punished some more.
No point trying to somehow excuse the tackle on the basis of other unrelated matters.
The Blues deserved the win.
The heinous tackle did not impact on this.
11 Mar 2012, 16:59 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-123:
I don’t think it was done purposefully. I’m just so tired of us whinging all the time. Rugby is game for men not for sissies. My point is that this happens regularly and used Bakkies as an example. This pot – kettle – holier than though attitude pisses me off. Excuses and blaming refs for not making the right decisions. I think the ref handled the game well and made the correct decisions. The time was up and he made it clear. He took action by issuing a yellow and white card. Nothing unrelated at all. I’m making a point.
11 Mar 2012, 17:18 pm
@Bill Reyts(Gumboots)-124: Surprisingly I do not see a lot of comments on the state of the scrums. I truly believe that my guess is as good as any NZ or Aus referee when it comes to srumming laws and they have too much control over the game. The IRB is overlooking the real problem, which are two scrums of that weight cannot stay upright if they crash into each other. They should go back to the old days where the two packs engaged before the scrum and they started to push. It will then be better governed than in the old days and then they should rather concentrate on the 9′s feed that should be straight.
11 Mar 2012, 17:24 pm
@Horings(Horings)-125:
I fully agree with you! I come from the old school too! You would quickly know who is the stronger pack. I don’t think I have seen a straight throw into the scrums for a few years now.
11 Mar 2012, 18:17 pm
@cab(cab)-111: Phil ‘the power’ Taylor hahahaga
11 Mar 2012, 18:51 pm
Decent Pom/Frog game Frogs 2 meters short on final drop goal
Morning all
11 Mar 2012, 18:53 pm
@Bill Reyts(Gumboots)-122:
I dont think Blues were far superior
I think Bulls played kak and M steyne missed 4 shots at goal
Blues benefited by a disinterested Bulls team
11 Mar 2012, 19:22 pm
@Bill Reyts(Gumboots)-122: I actually agree with you on this one.
Firstly I don’t think the tackle was that bad, he went in as Bjorn was going over the line, his intent was clear to me, to try and disrupt the act of scoring a try. If I was a Blues man I’d pat him on the back for his efforts.
No matter, this plays into our hands as a citing indicates a likely suspension for a game at least. No Stormers.
Suits me fine.
11 Mar 2012, 19:25 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-130:
I think the intent was fine but a bit late and now wrapping so late and dangerous
But i understand he was trying to stop a try been scored
maybe 2 weeks one for late tackle an done for dangerous
11 Mar 2012, 19:37 pm
@CoachPete(CoachPete)-131: I don’t think it was late but I’ll grant it looks dangerous.
So 1 week.
Just enough to miss the Stormers game
11 Mar 2012, 19:44 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-132:
Could be the yellow is enough and no more
I think Ref was correct with yellow card I think it happens way to often a guy scoring a try been hit late or dangerous
But he was wrong about calling the game before giving the penalty on the half way line, where bulls could have tapped and run to score again
11 Mar 2012, 19:45 pm
But Walsh was ok i think
11 Mar 2012, 19:57 pm
@CoachPete(CoachPete)-133: the bulls deserved no penalty! aplon last year fiddled with kahui in the act of scoring a try, the penalty try was awarded to the chiefs, aplon was yellowed and NO halfway line penalty was handed to the chiefs.
11 Mar 2012, 20:34 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-135: I remember a game where a player tried to trip an opponent who was in the act of scoring a try. Went in with his feet. I can’t recall the exact match, maybe you can? I think it involved the Sharks. Anyway, in that game a penalty was awarded on the half way line after the conversion was taken.
11 Mar 2012, 20:40 pm
i remember in the good old days … when Currie Cup rugby still meant something! …. any late tackle or a shove after a try was scored, a penalty was given on the halfway line and then Naas die baas use to slot them easily! … very few refs still do that! they don’t have the balls! Ranger is a good player, but he is a f*ck nut! he does these kind of stupid k@k in every game! anyway, i’m sure the Bulls will take the loss, they still look pretty on the log!
11 Mar 2012, 20:56 pm
@CoachPete(CoachPete)-133: ja I see your point but as Pissant explained, the penalty was in the act of scoring a try, not after the try had been scored.
A question of timing to be sure, but probably technically correct.
Anyway it’s done and dusted,
Bonus point at least, so that’s something.
11 Mar 2012, 22:03 pm
A good explanation is on Pissant (Morne)’s site here:
http://www.ruggaworld.com/2012/03/11/why-the-bulls-did-not-get-that-penalty/
12 Mar 2012, 03:23 am
Any sport that requires participants to wear a waistcoat must be viewed with suspicion.
12 Mar 2012, 04:27 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-2:
There have been similar incidents in the past where a penalty try was awarded and player sent off. Or try awarded and player sent off! In these there was not a midfield penalty award!
12 Mar 2012, 04:45 am
Ban the fukkker for life………….
12 Mar 2012, 05:35 am
@whatever(whatever)-142:
Settle down boy, don’t lose the plot.
How come the word hate seems to stand out like dogs ball..s in your nic? Merely coincidence.
12 Mar 2012, 07:24 am
@whatever(whatever)-142:
If the jury follow you’re opinion then there would be no bok side/ s to speak of!
12 Mar 2012, 08:07 am
Rapport: Nou Die Mol wil nie eintlik Meyer en die Suid-Afrikaanse Rugbyunie (Saru) se groot aankondiging spoil nie, maar hy het besluit die volk kan nie langer wag om te **** wie die wyse manne is wat Heyneke gaan bystaan nie.
Só hier is hulle: Rassie Erasmus, Johan van Graan, Basil Carzis, Ricardo Laubscher, Louis Koen, Victor Matfield, Pieter de Villiers en waarskynlik Jacques Nienaber.
12 Mar 2012, 09:49 am
@Hondo(Hondo)-112: I like Kaplan, too, will never forget however his “penalty” against the Waratahs (who for some reason just cannot win while he is reffing, only 2 from 20 or something and even those wins just against the pisspoor Rebels & Co), when he was asked for a reason, he replied “I forgot it” but nevermind penalty stayed. The game was in Sydney vs Bulls not long ago.
12 Mar 2012, 09:56 am
Fair enough – two weeks – now we can get on with rugby! Case closed.
12 Mar 2012, 14:09 pm
Tough call – hard decision each way – but did you see the pace of Ranger coming across field to catch Basson – wow
12 Mar 2012, 15:12 pm
ufo37
a bit late in the day but you are 100%correct that refs are allowing players to be dived upon and nothing is being done.
in this instance he got a 2 week ban which is too little.
in fact the ref should have not blown his whistle for the end of the game as the the hit came after he had scored and the correct ruling would have been to restart the game with a penalty at the half way and this possibly could have lead to a bulls victory.
walsh said he could not award the penalty as time was up but this is one of the times when you cannot blow the whistle for full time or half time if the infringement is to be followed by a penalty….
i understand walsh may have been confused as it was a fast game and after 80 minutes a ref may have been quite exhausted.
12 Mar 2012, 21:59 pm
that tackle was not late ********
13 Mar 2012, 07:52 am
Filthy kiwi.
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