Habana’s quality shines through
19 Mar 2012
MARK KEOHANE, in his weekly Business Day column, says Bryan Habana’s performance against the Blues proved that he still has what it takes to match the young brigade.
In a Super Rugby season that is already giving an indication of the next generation of southern hemisphere stars, there were a few veterans who reminded us this weekend their effect and enthusiasm remain as important to the fabric of the tournament.
Bryan Habana, irresistible at the 2007 World Cup and quite the opposite last year, finally got the kind bounce of the ball that seemed his birthright in 2007.
Habana again emphasised the argument that a kick for territory is only as good as the chase. Habana refused to give up on a kick that seemed innocuous and the sprint produced a try for the Stormers and Springbok winger, and one hopes also a reprieve from those who refuse to accept Habana can still make a contribution internationally. Few players can match Habana for dedication and desire, and the support he gets from current and past team-mates says everything about his qualities as a player.
He will never repeat the tournament form that helped the Springboks win the World Cup in 2007. The brilliance of those seven magnificent weeks blinded too many, myself included. When a player sets a standard as Habana did in France, he also sets an expectation that isn’t necessarily realistic.
His move from the Bulls to Western Province after the 2007 World Cup also came at a time when the Province and Stormers coaches invested in a defensive mindset that favoured structure and offered little to the individual attacking ambitions of the back three. Opportunities on attack were limited for Habana in a team with the best defensive record in Super Rugby in 2010 and last year. And when a winger is starved of the ball he is also starved of that swagger that turns a stumble into a sensational break.
I sat next to Percy Montgomery at Friday’s Stormers match against the Blues. Montgomery, in our company suite draw, had Habana to score the first try of the match and when his former team-mate did just that Montgomery pumped his fist in the air in a show of solidarity.
Montgomery, the first South African to play 100 Test matches for the Boks, spent four years playing Test rugby alongside Habana and the next four as part of the Springbok coaching staff. He has never doubted Habana, and is adamant there has been an evolution of his game that wasn’t recognised because of how tightly the wing was marked and how significantly different his role was at the Stormers compared to the Bulls.
Montgomery conceded that where Habana did struggle was in confidence and, as happens in sport, the harder an individual tries the worse it seems to get. The Habana that finished last year’s World Cup was not a spent force, but a tired one. The quality of depth among South African players allows the public, the media and even coaches to call time on a player prematurely. The belief is always that this country’s rugby production line will produce a younger and faster alternative.
Too often (and here I am in the dock as well) there is more comfort in a new face and a quick fix than the laboured recovery of the likes of Habana.
To see Habana flourish at Newlands was my highlight in a weekend where the Stormers, Sharks and Cheetahs were good enough to win and played well enough to deserve their respective victories. Stormers captain and inside centre Jean de Villiers was excellent in leading the victory against the Blues, and if Frans Steyn is the probable Bok option at No 12 for the 2015 World Cup, De Villiers played with enough authority and effect to make it hard to ignore his claims to a season or two more in national colours.
Bismarck du Plessis was the inspiration for the Sharks and Pat Lambie’s radar and all-round rhythm was of a standard that matches the belief in his potential to be consistently influential in determining results. Cheetahs captain Adriaan Strauss is another whose star shines bright in this year’s tournament, and rookie flyhalf Johan Goosen has a presence that screams permanence. Bok coach Heyneke Meyer is blessed with so many options in every position and there are South Africans dominating in every competition in the northern and southern hemisphere.
The attrition rate in Super Rugby will be a hurdle for Meyer, Robbie Deans and Steve Hansen, but the South African and New Zealand competition challenge is producing a number of selection alternatives to negate injuries. The tournament’s young brigade is thriving, but there are as many veterans matching the new kids, none more so this weekend than Habana and De Villiers.
175 Comments
19 Mar 2012, 12:13 pm
And what about the Stomers Scrum – Surely the front row needs mention KEO?
19 Mar 2012, 12:14 pm
Very surprised Habana got man of the match.
Perhaps if there was a prize for Most Improved, Habana would have claimed it.
But I thought Jean d Villiers was the standout on Friday.
19 Mar 2012, 12:17 pm
@LethalLynch(LethalLynch)-1:
There is no prize for self congratulations, air punching and back slapping.
Or else the Stormers front row would def have sewn that prize up.
19 Mar 2012, 12:18 pm
No ways that Habana was man of the match!!! one lucky bounce makes you man of the match? he got the fright of his life anyway! shocking!
19 Mar 2012, 12:19 pm
@grant10(grant100)-4: have to agree
19 Mar 2012, 12:20 pm
Maybe Habana is the next Butch for Keo, is Keo not writing Habana’s book ?
19 Mar 2012, 12:23 pm
Now this article on him is a bit undeserved, just like his MoM award Friday.
If you’re going to write up a backline player of the Stormers, surely it should be the ever sparkling Aplon?
Liebenberg, Kolisi, Appies, JdV, Kitshoff to name a few were all better than him.
Habs did the basics right, chasing after kicks, tackling hard and finally not jumping out of the defensive line, all things that any decent wing can do.
But it’s Hurdles’s turn to show what he can do.
19 Mar 2012, 12:24 pm
@capebull(capebull)-5: Me too. I mean I’m happy to see him playing better, but the award must go to one of the forwards. Any of 4 players could have got it IMO, and JDV in the backline stood ahead of Brian in the queue for MOM.
19 Mar 2012, 12:24 pm
Habs was pure class on Friday… And not just the try… His whole game..
19 Mar 2012, 12:25 pm
JdV had a strong game but did nothing to convince me that he should be at 12 rather than 13. He is a talented player and would start for most teams, but I would like a better distributor at 12. JdV runs good lines, often breaks tackles and can step. He is often used on first phaze ball to break the line. All attributes of a 13.
19 Mar 2012, 12:31 pm
@THE MAULER(THE MAULER)-9:
That try wasn’t even ”pure class”.
That’s a wing’s job, to chase kicks.
A rugby ball is ongehoorsaam and in this case it bounced nicely for him and he did what most other wings would’ve done, stepped the nearest player and (barely) forced his way over the line.
19 Mar 2012, 12:36 pm
i reckon habana has signed to HSM, otherwise there’s no justification for this article.
19 Mar 2012, 12:43 pm
11 agree but his all round game has stepped up from previous occassions…
19 Mar 2012, 12:44 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-12:
A mention of his play would’ve been justified, but a whole article???
19 Mar 2012, 12:47 pm
@THE MAULER(THE MAULER)-13:
We all agree on that, he did the basics well. He’s now like Chester Williams post 99.
19 Mar 2012, 12:52 pm
I agree with people who say that there were better candidates for MoM than Habana on Friday night.
He did have a solid game though but that is something that is expected of him given his experience and the senior role he is suppose to play in the team.
Keo starting to talk up Habs like this can only mean one of two things: A book deal is in the offing or he is trying to become Habana’s agent.
Reminicent of how he became Luke’s agent. He shared a box with Cheeky in England/Wales during a test match, I think…. only this time around he shared a box with a good mate of Habana, Percy Montgomery.
I’m sure Percy must whisper something in Habana’s ear on Keo’s behalf.
Watch this space.
19 Mar 2012, 12:59 pm
@ 16 Nama
Share your sentiments completely,something’s up! No way Habana was the best player out there,his performance did not warrant this halelluyah article.
19 Mar 2012, 13:06 pm
Really!!!!!
All Habana did on Friday and what he has been doing for the past 6 season was to chase a kick that landed fortuitously for him. He had a clear chance towards the end to make some yardage when he did a scissors with Juan de Jongh and then just end up knocking it on.
I have to agree with the rest, the Stormers young guns in the tight five were the winners for me. Boy can these kids scrum, just imagine what damage they would do given a few more seasons.
19 Mar 2012, 13:08 pm
@nama1(nama1)-16: Cynic
But who knows…..
19 Mar 2012, 13:11 pm
Can these farken JDV rah-rah fools put the Donkey down already…
F Steyn is not only the superior option at 12 for RWC 2015, but every year before too…
JDJ too.
19 Mar 2012, 13:13 pm
It is abundantly clear that Bryan still has the desire to do well and to do so in the Bok jumper.
Professional rugby (or any sport) is tough to say the least; yes it does come with fame etc but you have to deliver week in and week out. Because you’re dealing with human beings that will always be tough.
Bryan may also be a victim of racism that says that he needs to perform 20-30% better than the average player to justify his place in the team. Rugby is a team sport; wings are ‘made’ by the decisions by 12 & 13.
If Bryan was playing next to a Dan Kara for instance, he would have scored a lot more.
My advice would simply be for Bryan to get centred and express himself every time he runs out. Remove the shackles in your own mind and simply enjoy the game that made you famous.
Forget about 2007; 2012 can be even better – he needs to believe that first…
19 Mar 2012, 13:21 pm
Thanks to keo for the behind-the-scenes action; it adds to the drama and suspense:
‘ I sat next to Percy Montgomery at Friday’s Stormers match against the Blues. Montgomery, in our company suite draw, had Habana to score the first try of the match and when his former team-mate did just that Montgomery pumped his fist in the air in a show of solidarity’
We need more of this…
19 Mar 2012, 13:22 pm
@Sheriff(Sheriff)-21: Actually you have a point… If habanero did not have Donkey De Villiers as the 12 inside him he would definitely have scored more tries guaranteed… for the Boks and Stormers…
19 Mar 2012, 13:31 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-23:
12 & 13′s should create, create, create
There is an important phase in Bryan’s career that you must not forget. It was a certain Mr Jake White who provided the opportunity for Bryan to attend a Bok training camp when he was an unknown quantity.
I remember for years the skilled marketing man (White) used to tell the story that people used to say ‘Bryan Who’; boy did he ride that wave
Between him and Mr Allister Coetzee they came up with the ‘rush defense’ and this meant that attacking teams would be forced into passing 50-50s. This created the platform for intercept tries. In PdV’s tenure they employed the kick and chase method
Unfortunately the downside of these is that they became one dimensional and battled to manipulate defenses and score ‘proper’ tries
19 Mar 2012, 13:35 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-23:
@Sheriff(Sheriff)-24:
Habana’s previous achievements are well documented and respected.
We are talking about his performances in the now.
19 Mar 2012, 13:37 pm
If more players can contribute the way Habana does the Stormers will be far better off.
The only thing I saw different from Habana on Saturday to Habana in 2011 was he that he scored a try.
19 Mar 2012, 13:43 pm
@wpstormerbok(wpstormerbok)-25:
My argument is that Bryan’s performances now has been influenced heavily by his formative years, the years leading to the RWC 2007.
I reckon he is that yard or so slower than back then so, a second or two makes a huge difference at the highest levels where players have less time to decide and execute
To my mind he can still complete for the 11 jumper: between him, Basson and Mvovo
19 Mar 2012, 13:43 pm
same can be said for jdv keo. i thought he deserved the mom award. he was colossal on friday nite. glad for habana though. he really works hard.
19 Mar 2012, 13:43 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-26:
Here’s a list of players doing exactly what Habs does, that is give their all each game:
Liebenberg (throw-ins off sometimes)
Eben
Kolisi
Aplon
Pieterson
Vermeulen
De Jong
Grant
There’s nothing special about this Habana. The 2004 – 2008 version, that one was special.
19 Mar 2012, 13:45 pm
@Sheriff(Sheriff)-27:
I agree regarding his formative years where he was made to rely too much on his speed and never quite developed a more rounded game.
Fact is he’s not going to get any better so wouldn’t it be wise to give guys who still have room to improve a chance now to establish themselves?
19 Mar 2012, 13:47 pm
Habs works hard, true.
But It’s like when people tell a fat chick she has a pretty face, it might be true but in the bigger scheme of things it doesn’t really change the fact that she’s fat.
19 Mar 2012, 13:53 pm
@wpstormerbok(wpstormerbok)-30:
In principle yes, but we need to learn to make gradual transitions.
Take the Proteas side for instance: I’m sure there are many calling for Graeme Smith, Jacques Kallis and Mark Boucher to be dropped to give new players a chance
Always remember: new players lack one critical ingredient: experience; it is the experience of these core players that together with AB and Amla bring the composure, the confidence
I think Bjorn will probably take over from Habs in time to come, but he needs to go out and do what Habs has done already.
Also, a guy like Stefan Terblanche actually played better rugby in his 30s due to dedication and improved conditioning. Bryan must begin to think wider than scoring in the corner.
19 Mar 2012, 13:54 pm
can’t understand all the habana-hate… reckon it’s because they’ve hated him for so long now, they can’t stand to see him prove them wrong…
sheesh… the guy always gives 100%… sure I thought the man of the match should gone to one of the front-row… but hell… i’m not gonna spit in my coffee, throw my hat on the ground and kick the dog because of it…
he did have a good game… so well done to bryan for getting it…
bryan will get better and better this season… and it’s great to see him get some positive press at last…
sure… maybe give van den heaver more game time… but i’d still start with habana…
19 Mar 2012, 13:55 pm
Later chaps
19 Mar 2012, 13:59 pm
A friend of mine met up with Sarecencs conditioning coach the other day and one interesting thing that he said is that when the develop players, the believe that rugby players physically peak at 23 and from that point they stop trying to develop them further and rather try and maintain that standard. It kind of makes sense, players get better with experience, positioning, technique.
In Bryan case, he has lost that yard or two, but haven’t improved his technique or positioning. I still believe he is one of the best wingers around, but feel that for the past 4 years his talent has been wasted through poor tactics from certain coaches. How any coach can not see his quality and reduce him to merely chasing a ball all game long is beyond me.
I have to agree with the point that the midfield players need to create space and SA backs are notorious for either bashing the ball up the midfield or kicking away, or when they do shuffle the ball wide, its with a few players.
Bryan has been so starved of the ball that he now pops around the fringes of the ruck, had he been more patient he would have had ample times to score tries.
19 Mar 2012, 14:03 pm
@Sheriff(Sheriff)-32:
I don’t think this is the same as calling for Biff, Kallis or Boucher’s head.
Biff was only in danger in the ODI side, he saved his place by getting runs.
No ways we can drop Kallis. Boucher already stated he’s going to retire this year so problem solved.
But that’s far removed from the challenges of the oval ball in any case.
What made Habana so dangerous was the fact that he could take risks and had the speed to back it up, if he saw he couldn’t snatch a pass he did it at will. Now he can’t do that anymore as he’s lost that zip.
I remember him getting the ball, pinning his ears back and it would appear that his feet were barely touching the grass the way he glided across the surface.
I agree that he has to develop his game, but not at the expense of younger players who have the raw qualities but need time out on the field to grow.
There’s only 80 minutes in a game, how’s Van Der Heever going to reach his potential if he’s going to play 10 minutes per game?
19 Mar 2012, 14:05 pm
@kingcorn(kingcorn)-35:
before the s15 started bryan was clocked as the quickest in the stormers over 40 metres… the metres that count when making a break…
what evidence can you provide that he has lost a yard or two…?
19 Mar 2012, 14:09 pm
@ufo(ufo)-33:
I for one am not hating on anybody.
I cheered the loudest when he got that try, when he went up and competed for that high kick and we got the scrum feed.
But I also see him lacking that spark which set him apart from the rest, the way it looked as if his feet are stuck when he had to turn and catch that slowpoke 14 of the Blues.
The way he couldn’t handle the ball after Aplon put him in the gap on the cut.
I’ll support him passionately when he goes out and play because I know he gives his all.
But in the cold light of day when the final whistle has gone, we need to be honest with ourselves that there are players waiting for a chance to show their worth he’s unfortunately standing in their way, therefor I’ll be critical of his play until those players get a fair shot just like he’s had a fair shot at regaining his form but as we can all see it’s not going to happen.
You say he’ll still improve a lot this season, in which way now?
19 Mar 2012, 14:09 pm
1 down 7 more to go.
19 Mar 2012, 14:10 pm
Quality depth in every position for Meyer…
Barring 3 and 9.
Which is why Fourie Du Preez will likely be playing test rugby again.
But who will back up Jannie Du Plessis?
Kruger
Oosthuyzen
Cilliers
Van Der Linde
Botha
Mujati
Aadrianse
Harris
Malherbe
…
?
19 Mar 2012, 14:11 pm
@ufo(ufo)-33:
Don’t think it is about hate for Habana. It’s more about Keo and how he writes up players that he has a vested interest in or players that he wants on his books.
Big Joe
Luke
Butch
19 Mar 2012, 14:13 pm
@wpstormerbok(wpstormerbok)-38:
Let’s start how you measure a player’s ‘worth’?
19 Mar 2012, 14:15 pm
@wpstormerbok(wpstormerbok)-38:
the fact is he is STILL the quickest stormer over 40m… so he has put in lots of work there’s no doubt to compete with and beat the young guns…
as PA says… no one puts in more than habana…
i think he’ll improve simply because a game like saturday will help him to relax and not try so hard… and as he relaxes and enjoys it more things will click and the bounce of the ball will start favoring him more and more…
time will tell…
but my choice is still to start him…
19 Mar 2012, 14:18 pm
@nama1(nama1)-41:
that may be the case bud…
but then this would be a case for those who don’t like keo to in fact shoot the messenger…
but the vitriol spewed would suggest that people really REALLY don’t like habana…
19 Mar 2012, 14:21 pm
@wpstormerbok(wpstormerbok)-38:
Can you honestly say that Shadow will bring more to the game than Habana?
Has his defence frailties been solved for example.
You must be sure that if you replace Habana that it will be an overall improvement, not just an improvement in the speed stakes. Somehow I also doubt that Shadow will catch Habana over 50/60 m if Habana has a headstart of 2m or that he will leave Habana in his wake if they start together. So, in terms of speed you don’t actually get that much more from Shadow, if any.
What else then does he bring to the table for Habana to be dropped so that he can start?
19 Mar 2012, 14:22 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-42:
good question PA…
habana has obviously put in lots of time over the off-season…
van den heaver… (who i do like too) has also put in lots of time over the off season… but not on the field obviously… imagine how slim and quick van den heaver would be if he replicated habana’s training ethic…
habana’s example is great for the young guns about how to give their all off and on the field…
19 Mar 2012, 14:23 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-42:
I measure it in what he contributes in his position and the team as a whole.
A Prop – Scrum well, clear rucks, good defense around fringes and ability to carry and secure ball in the tight phases, cohesiveness with rest of the forward pack.
Wing – Speed (the more the better) Good finisher, decent defender, ability to chase kicks and field high balls and modern wings need a strong kicking game as well, good linking play with fullback.
Now Habana can do these things, but so can other younger players who have the advantage of youth and room for improvement whereas Habana has stagnated for much too long and cannot get any better than he currently is.
He has been given ample time to discover form but there should be a cut-off date and his has come.
19 Mar 2012, 14:23 pm
With Steenkamp, Mtawarira, Greyling and now Kitshoff all offering much at loosehead, I reckon Meyer should look at Oosthuyzen as a 3 moving forward.
The player has expressed interest in the position and seemed to do well at tighthead during the CC.
19 Mar 2012, 14:27 pm
@nama1(nama1)-45:
I cannot honestly say that because he only gets 10 minutes to show what he can do.
But he showed enough in the Stormers’ opening game when he had a full game that he can become a very good wing and together with Aplon and Joe at the back looks much more balanced than with Habana there.
He has bulked up to improve his defence which was his major flaw last year, so let’s give him a go and see what happens, after all he’s young and can only get better.
19 Mar 2012, 14:36 pm
Those three powerfull scrums at the end of the game won us the match. Kitshoff and Estebeth were amazing.
19 Mar 2012, 14:41 pm
When I saw that Habana had got MOM on Friday I thought then that the Commentary Team may not have been watching the same game as me as there were at least 4 better candidates. Now we have supposedly one of the better scribes in SA supporting that blind school. No wonder we lost the RWC last year because all the Selectors got was support for their ridiculous choices from the supposedly better informed Press elite instead of giving the Bok management the bollocking they deserved and which might have penetrated a bit more than the many critical fans whose only way of voicing their misgivings was through various blogs.
19 Mar 2012, 14:44 pm
@wpstormerbok(wpstormerbok)-49:
Let him use that 10 minutes at a time to convince the coach that he belongs on the playing field for more than just the 10 minutes by delivering a great performance every time he goes onto the field.
Who knows, if he does that it may become 20 minutes, later 30 minutes and before you know it, he may actually start a match.
For now, Habana is in the driving seat and it is up to Shadow to unseat him.
19 Mar 2012, 14:49 pm
@wpstormerbok(wpstormerbok)-47:
Well there is generally two problems assessing players as you stated above. Firstly, while there is little doubt each player needs to do the basics well specific to his position, what you stated is how wings get picked in school because today’s rugby player (specifically backline players) needs to be able to do all which you stated. Secondly, the source of the data you use to formulate a scorecard for the player is largely subjective as it is done through viewing the game on a Saturday afternoon.
Coaches today and for some time are using far more in-depth analysis tools to measure the ‘worth’ of their players.
Wings are no longer judged on how many tries they score in a season – that is only important for the media writing stories on them. They, like all players are measured in their overall contribution to each game. As a player you have a positive contribution and a negative contribution leaving you at the end with a final scorecard figure.
Now although this figure give any coach a good indication of any player, further analysis is done in context of the game, game plan and player’s contribution to his role within the team.
But the simple explanation I want to offer here is that to measure a player’s worth cannot only be done from the tick boxes high-school coaches use to select players into positions.
Contributions (to name just a few) include; tackles made, tackles missed, tackle assists, ruck attendances and cleans, rucks lost, balls lost, line breaks, how many times they handle the ball and meters gained. effective passes, ineffective passes, meters covered in 80 minutes (running, walking, sprinting), defensive kicks, tactical kicks, players general proximity to the ball for 80minutes, turn overs won, penalties won, penalties conceded, etc etc etc.
It provides you with two very important results for each player – their work rate, and on-field contribution.
That is where you measure a player’s ‘worth’.
19 Mar 2012, 14:50 pm
I almost get the impression that the commentators, in this case Hugh Bladen and Joel Stransky, tend to forget about the MOM award.
I think it was actually Joel’s decision this time round so I dont think we should make too much of this as it is and will always be subjective (and sometimes rushed)
Something that I quite enjoy is Jean’s captaincy; he is one of the players that excel when trusted with more responsibility
19 Mar 2012, 14:50 pm
@nama1(nama1)-52:
When I said 10 minutes I was being generous, it was more like 4…
But even if you step onto the field with 10 minutes to go, how will you show what you can do?
The ball will probably only be in play for 6 minutes, of those 6 the other team will have it for 3.
For the record he did have 1 carry when he got on the field and bashed across the advantage line.
He already belongs in the starting line-up, Habana’s reputation is the only thing that’s keeping him in his spot and now this unjustified fanfair after scoring a try by doing what wings should be doing will only keep him around for longer than he deserves.
19 Mar 2012, 14:52 pm
@BreakdownBoy(goodstuff)-50: Hellsteeth… Brokeback Stormergasm alert!
19 Mar 2012, 15:01 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-53:
Hold up a minute.
If you wanted me to give you a full-on thesis on ”a player’s worth” than you should’ve stated it.
I gave you a brief summary of basic expectations from a player in his position, not an in-depth analysis of each meter ran by each individual.
You sound cynical to a point (forgive me if I took it the wrong way) talking about tools coaches have and that I (or us fans) watch on a Saturday almost as if to belittle my input and somehow makes your opinion on what you saw superior?
Of course there’s much more to the make up of a player, did you want me to discuss their diets, gym routine etc?
At the end of the day we can only judge from what transpires between the four white lines, I never said don’t pick Habana because he doesn’t score in any case?
My argument is that there are younger players who’ll be able to improve if given the chance to get on the field.
Instead we have an aging player who gives his all (same as the young player would) depriving a younger player of game time to develop his skills and become a valuable asset when Habana finally realises that his time is up.
19 Mar 2012, 15:02 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-56:
So, how did your team do this weekend?
19 Mar 2012, 15:05 pm
@wpstormerbok(wpstormerbok)-57:
Well your view is one of ‘Bryan is past it and are depriving young players’ yet you offer very little to support such a view other than a subjective opinion of what you see or perceive.
Now either we are not looking at the same thing or games or we ‘measure’ players quite differently.
19 Mar 2012, 15:06 pm
@nama1(nama1)-58: You farken know exactly how well… They fckswiped the current champs nicely…
19 Mar 2012, 15:07 pm
I’m no Hurdles fan in the way that Tac was when he was still up North.
My opinion is just that whichever talented youngsters there may be at WP Rugby Union who can play wing with huge potential are being held back unfairly by this persistance of playing a former great player simply because he was great 4 years ago.
I have all the respect for what Hab’s has done, he can still play a role in the squad and if the younger players stuff up then by all means he’s the best we have.
If Burger wasn’t injured a guy like Kolisi would be in the 4 minute boat along with Van Der Heever, but the difference is Schalk’s play justifies his inclusion and Kolisi will have to be patient whereas Hab’s isn’t showing me enough reason why the other guys shouldn’t get a shot at it.
19 Mar 2012, 15:11 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-59:
There’s only one way to measure a player’s worth – performance.
I’m saying, clearly this time around :
Habana does what is expected of any wing playing Super Rugby.
My argument is we have a younger player who could be better if given a fair shot at it instead of 10 minute cameo’s.
Does that make sense to you now?
19 Mar 2012, 15:15 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-60:
You Bananaboys don’t want to discuss that major achievement amongst yourselves?
Disect the performance a bit, look where your team’s strengths and weaknesses were and use this site to give Plumtree some pointers for the next game?
… or would you rather visit with the Stormer supporters?
Just asking.
19 Mar 2012, 15:20 pm
@Sheriff(Sheriff)-24: jake & alister cannot be credited with coming up with the “rush defence” that honour goes to one gary gold!
19 Mar 2012, 15:23 pm
@wpstormerbok(wpstormerbok)-62:
What makes perfect sense to me is that you and I judge players and their ‘worth’ quite differently.
Habana does far more than your run-of-the-mill Super Rugby wing. As I stated before, there are quite a number of ways to measure that (a lot of it freely available to the public too), you clearly choose not to.
So there is little point in discussing this any further.
19 Mar 2012, 15:24 pm
I’m clearly missing something here – past players, journalists and coaches have praised Habanas performance but arm chair critics claim there are better in his position. Who to believe…
19 Mar 2012, 15:32 pm
Cheers guys!
19 Mar 2012, 15:32 pm
@nama1(nama1)-52:
that’s the way it should be done…!!
19 Mar 2012, 15:33 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-53: you reckon Keo used any of the so-called criteria you’ve highlighted to get to this virtual “hand job” to bryan?
um, all i see is a reference to a “suite draw” which percy participated in, nothing on effective tackles, kicks fielded in own 22, passes made in opposition’s 22 etc
19 Mar 2012, 15:34 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-65:
No we watch the same game and the same stats are available to everybody.
Compared to wings such as Aplon, Ranger, Jane, Digby, Messam, Gear etc where does he fit in?
Slightly above run-of-the-mill yes, but it’s obvious you don’t want to answer my question about whether the player next in line could be a better player than Habana.
Yes or No, and why. That’s it.
To further analyse your rules of a player’s worth using stats, does it come down to quantity or quality?
Assuming each player gets the full 80 minutes, in the same position:
Player A has 100 running meters yet he only crossed the gainline 30% of the time.
Player B has 60 running meters but crossed the gain line 70% of the time.
Which one is more valuable?
But shouldn’t we consider the quality of opposition as well, what about weather conditions etc etc.
Rugby’s a simple yet complex game that I know but if we’re gonna base our argument on each little detail we’re never going to come to a conclusion.
Whether you want to discuss it further or not is all on you, I’m always up for a healthy debate.
19 Mar 2012, 15:37 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-69:
Exactly.
Never expected PA to take this stand as a ”Rugby Intellectual” of some sort.
19 Mar 2012, 15:39 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-59:
i agree with your posts 53 and 59 pretty much entirely but will say that in wpstormersboks case a partial defense would be that for the most part the modern testing and analysis methodologies used by coaches in order to measure a players worth simply excludes younger players from achieving a relative worth value when measured against a player like habana to the point of precluding them it would seem in some cases.
the reason of course being because they do not have a number of games behind them on which to build a comparitive historical assessment of the value of their contributions and its worth to, in this case, say habana’s.
how are they judged? on their performances in training only i suppose and even though this could also give a positive or negative value its still leaves them short with regard to on field assesment values. is habana then in turn measured against some/any other wingers who do get comparable game time? of course, no.
so he’s only measured against his own abilities and as long as he shows a ‘positive value in worth and contributions’ both individually and in the team context he’s ok? maybe there’s a flaw there which could be remedied by rotating players and then comparing their worth relatively?
who knows, this may in fact show up a whole hornets nest of analysis misgivings on/with regard to so many players who though they may tick the positive ‘value, worth’ boxes in regards all the criteria going into their assesments will/could still be found to come short when measured against competing players.
there are too many players in certain positions in teams who go for periods far too long for them to be in any way measured other than on their own.
schalk burger to my mind is a player who has coasted on this possible likelyhood for a very, very long time…in his case however the chickems may have come home to roost…expect omelettes…
19 Mar 2012, 15:43 pm
@welcome to my life, hugh…(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-72:
”so he’s only measured against his own abilities and as long as he shows a ‘positive value in worth and contributions’ both individually and in the team context he’s ok? ”
That’s what I’ve been asking the whole time.
In my opinion the next player could also show a positive value in worth and contributions, even more so than Habana’s currently doing.
19 Mar 2012, 15:46 pm
@UKSaffa(catchlightuk.com)-66:
Some past players and journalists also have us believed last year that it was a good thing that our bench was full of super subs and that the inferior players were starting the game.
We all know how that turned out.
19 Mar 2012, 15:50 pm
It’s no use making even 1 metre over the gain line if something constructive is not done with the ball at the end of each run/tackle and it’s lost to the opposition – which is where a lot of these stats fail. I did a “Boxing Round” type of analysis on both Habana and Spies last year and it was in that area that the “counter-punch” ended up with significant advantage to the opponents in the majority of cases. This is just to point out that the reliance on stats can lead to many false initial impressions since (thank heavens) both Spies and Habana are both showing at least some glimpses of form this year.
19 Mar 2012, 15:51 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-69:
I cannot speak for Keo, I wasnt in the same suite. But if history is anything to go by then no.
@wpstormerbok(wpstormerbok)-70:
The answer to your question is quite simple – no.
Reason; I tend not to debate players or base opinions on could’ve and would’ve. For any potentially great young player that makes it, 10 fail.
On the analysis the crux remains a player’s ‘positive contribution’ to the game. Making 20 tackles but being driven back 5 meters in 19 hardly counts towards a positive contribution.
There are plenty out there to use as a base, SportCode, Fairplay, etc.
There has only been 4 rounds so far, but you can easily check out the stats in 2011 where Habana was heavily criticised, just his work rate and involvement around the park far exceeded any other SA wing in 2011 in Super Rugby.
I don’t know if they are still around but Ruggastats did quite a number of these in 2011. Fun to read if nothing else.
I must be off though, have to run.
19 Mar 2012, 15:54 pm
@UKSaffa(catchlightuk.com)-66:
Did you watch Rugby World Cup 2011, New Zealand?
I was one of PdV’s most vocal supporters on here believing the plan of starting Habana & J.Smit ahead of Hougie & Bismarck would work.
Can’t fool me twice.
19 Mar 2012, 15:54 pm
@welcome to my life, hugh…(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-72:
Generally players are measured against their peers (other Super Rugby wings) and in context of their role/job in the team (game plan, strategies etc.) Coaches will always pick players that best fits in with what they hope to achieve in a team context.
But I must run now.
19 Mar 2012, 15:56 pm
@wpstormerbok(wpstormerbok)-70:
i would assume there is a list of ‘yardstick’ criteria which is used and would perhpas include the above example question posed in a number of different categories, this isn’t unreasonable.
running meters in various parts of the field..? rate and score in some way..?
gainline crossed in various parts of the field and as a %..? rate and score in some way..?
line breaks in various parts of the field..?.. rate and score in some way..?..
ans so, and so on…
whatever the suppposed intrinsic value of the results its still a value which could be used when measuring between players a and b, all thing being equal (they both played the same opposition under similar weather conditions).
you just say to player a that his score is 20 compared to player b’s 37 and that he must get his kak bymekaar..finish en klaar… this is perhpas one way in which they do this (all imagined by me of course)…
19 Mar 2012, 15:58 pm
To think this could be a Bok 22 this year…
15. Patrick Lambie.
14. J.P. Pieterson.
13. Jacque Fourie.
12. Francois Steyn.
11. Bryan Habana.
10. Johan Goosen.
9. Francois Hougaard.
8. Pierre Spies.
7. Schalk Burger (c).
6. Heinrich Brussow.
5. Andries Bekker.
4. Juandre Kruger.
3. C.J. Van Der Linde.
2. Bismark Du Plessis.
1. Coenie Oosthuizen.
16. Dean Greyling.
17. Adriaan Strauss.
18. Eben Estebeth.
19. Willem Alberts.
20. Sarel Pretorious.
21. Riaan Viljoen.
22. Jean De Villiers.
19 Mar 2012, 15:59 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-76:
I get what you’re saying regarding his stats etc.
My pain is that we have a younger player with big potential and youth on his side to greatly improve waiting in the, uhm, wings while Habana’s been dishing up the same sort of solid hard working performance for two years now.
For every one new player that makes it, 10 fail, 1 in 10 SA’s have Aids. So if we’re in a group of 10 1 of us will be HIV+?
Hoe pluk ons dan nou sommer so stats uit die lug uit.
19 Mar 2012, 16:02 pm
@welcome to my life, hugh…(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-79:
I’m not saying it’s unreasonable to measure a player by stats, not at all stats are a valuable tool.
I’m saying or asking how will we measure players fairly if one gets 10 chances, 70 minutes per game where the other gets 10 chances – 10 minutes per game.
19 Mar 2012, 16:03 pm
@wpstormerbok(wpstormerbok)-73:
so you’re making an argument for rotation of players in order to test them against each other?
i suppose it could be done on a positional basis…say keep the the pack and shuffle the backs or vice versa. i can assume that to a large extent this was certainly done wrt the stormers #10.
anyway, if this is the case then there’s a lost of coasters in the stormers team yet they seem to be doing well regardless..?.. (well, i need not point out that one very, very big coaster aka ‘the telling tackle king’ is not in the equation).
19 Mar 2012, 16:06 pm
i would wink but that would be conspiratorial….
19 Mar 2012, 16:07 pm
@welcome to my life, hugh…(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-83:
Not rotation just for the sake of it though, the incumbent has to be a player who’s not setting the world alight in his position and the player challenging must be worthy of a crack at his spot.
19 Mar 2012, 16:07 pm
i can confidentally say there is not a single coaster in the bulls team.
well, there were people saying things about pierre..but look at him now…
19 Mar 2012, 16:09 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-78:
cheers.
19 Mar 2012, 16:14 pm
@PissAnt
When you do get the chance please post the links to those stat websites, I’ve tried to google it but they don’t seem to exist.
19 Mar 2012, 16:15 pm
@ShaunSwindon(Karma-zaf)-80: Not a bad side still not convinced about Spies would rahter play Alberts
19 Mar 2012, 16:27 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-76: the following is an excerpt from an article written by Tony Johnson, the presenter of the kiwi rugby show ReUnion. he is talking about jock hobbs and how he “saved” all black rugby from the clutches of something referred to as World Rugby Corporation and he alludes that Francois Pienaar was in cahoots with whoever this WRC was, do you know who was backing this initiative?
“Undeterred he returned to the fray as chairman to sift through the rubble of the bungled RWC sub hosting saga in 2002, and within 3 years had spearheaded a brilliant campaign to win New Zealand the right to be sole host of the 2011 tournament.
As in the rugby wars campaign, that bid was meticulous in it’s detail, far more so than the rival ones, and that was the key to winning, although as one of his colleagues said at the time you could never underestimate the importance of having a respected former All Black captain at the forefront.
It was an interesting comment given that the South African campaign was also headed by a captain, and a more celebrated one at that in Francois Pienaar, the poster boy of the 1995 World Cup triumph.
Who knows how their standing 10 years later might have been affected by their opposing roles during the WRC crisis, when a duplicitous side to Pienaar’s character had emerged. Notably, on both occasions Jock Hobbs won the day.
19 Mar 2012, 16:32 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-90:
you mean other than kerry packer?
19 Mar 2012, 16:34 pm
@welcome to my life, hugh…(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-91: who?
19 Mar 2012, 16:36 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-90:
i remember reading a few articles on the whole thing as well a book which covered but may not have been the entire subject matter, if i recall, about the whole affair. cant remember the name or title though.
19 Mar 2012, 16:39 pm
@welcome to my life, hugh…(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-91: this is another excerpt where it is said that Hobbs “crisscrossed” their country convincing new zealnd players not to join this WRC…can you elaborate on it?
“It was in 1995 after the creation of the Tri Nations, Sanzar and the Super 12, as it was then, during the Rugby World Cup in South Africa, that Hobbs and Sir Brian Lochore were at the forefront of the bid to stave off the advances of the World Rugby Corporation that threatened to emasculate the traditional game and the international structure of rugby.
Hobbs and Lochore trooped up and down the country talking to All Blacks and convincing them, finally, to sign with the NZRU, thus saving the All Blacks as an institution.
His reward was an unceremonious dumping by the affiliated unions that was all too typical of the sometimes Kremlin-like NZRU of the amateur era.
So close did rugby come to losing its players, that in his book The Rugby War, Australian writer Peter FitzSimons recounted an instance where the magnitude of the crisis facing the game was hit home to Hobbs when he was told the situation was so bad that “if you previously had one finger on the window ledge, you’re now hanging by half a finger-nail.”
It was Hobbs who, at a vital stage in negotiations with the All Blacks, corralled Sir Brian Lochore to appear at the training run before a Bledisloe Cup Test against Australia so, if they wanted, the players could talk to him.
The then chairman of the NZRU Rob Fisher was quoted by FitzSimons as saying: “BJ [Lochore] could look players in the eye and make them feel embarrassed because they knew what he did not know.”
The effort Hobbs put in may never be fully appreciated by the rugby public at large. But one who worked alongside him during the time, Brendon O’Connor of the NZRU told FitzSimons: “The experience of working with Jock in those extraordinary circumstances illustrated to me what it truly meant to be an All Black.
“The fact that a handful of players might have been tampering with a history, a part of New Zealand society and culture, seemed to hurt him personally…it took an experience like that to make me understand the passion and the courage that it takes to be one [All Black].”
Hobbs, who had had to stress to the full board of the NZRU the level of action that needed to be taken, telling the board at one stage that their meeting could be the last ever held of any significance by the Union, was then defeated for a place on the NZRU board when it was reconfigured from 19 members to nine.
However, when New Zealand lost its co-sharing of the 2003 Rugby World Cup with Australia, the board of the NZRU was rearranged in 2002 and Hobbs was ushered back into the corridors of power and elected chairman of the organisation that had earlier shunned him.
That he was prepared to do that spoke volumes for his passion for rugby in New Zealand.”
19 Mar 2012, 16:40 pm
15. Patrick Lambie
14. Gio Aplon.
13. JP Pieterson.
12. Francois Steyn.
11. Lwazi Mvovo
10. Elton Jantjes
9. Francois Hougaard.
8. Willem Alberts
7. Schalk Burger (c).
6. Heinrich Brussow.
5. Andries Bekker.
4. Juandre Kruger.
3. Jannie Du Plessis
2. Bismark Du Plessis.
1. Beast Mtawarira
16. Coenie Oosthuizen
17. Chilliboy Rallapelle
18. Eben Etsebeth.
19. Pierre Spies
20. Sarel Pretorius.
21. Johan Goosen
22. Juan de Jongh
19 Mar 2012, 16:45 pm
@ShaunSwindon(Karma-zaf)-80:
I hope not.
Still only the obligatory two Colured wings?
Lambie at 15? Isn’t he playing at 10 for the Sharks?? When will we learn?
Spies at 8
@Transformation(Transformation)-90:
Kerry Packer. An Australian media mogul.
He was also responsible for dragging cricket into the pro era with his Kerry Packer Series in the mid 70′s.
19 Mar 2012, 16:45 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-92:
a biggish media tycoon who competed against murdoch for control of rugby as well against cricket interests for control of a world series cricket league of some sort.
i think he lost in both attempts.
19 Mar 2012, 16:50 pm
@nama1(nama1)-96: @welcome to my life, hugh…(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-97: thanks fellas, i will read up on this “carry pack(er)” fella and what his deal meant for rugby in ’95…i wonder how francois pienaar was involved in “duplicitous” behaviour according to TJ?
19 Mar 2012, 16:54 pm
@nama1(nama1)-96:
oh, i stand corrected on cricket then but i wouldnt say he won outright, no?
@Transformation(Transformation)-94:
it was around the time after the 1995 rwc, there was all the pressure to go pro but with a lot of pressure resiting drastic change equally as much. packer tried to set up a world rugby league or series of sorts through the world rugby corporation which would rival the irb i suppose and which would take the game pro
he at one stage had the support and backing of a number of boks, ab’s and wallabies but was fierciely resisted by the the rugby unions of sa, nz and aus mostly.
of the course the nutshell result is that rugby ended up going pro under the irb and its member unions anyway in order to stave off packers attempts at takeover.
19 Mar 2012, 16:56 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-98:
cheers,
have to go.
19 Mar 2012, 17:02 pm
@nama1(nama1)-63: What do you mean… keo.co.za = Fawning Stormer Propaganda…
Other teams outside the metrosexual mountain dreamland are lucky to even get a mention…
Twat
19 Mar 2012, 17:12 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-101:
but you know this.
19 Mar 2012, 17:54 pm
@wpstormerbok(wpstormerbok)-88:
Look I agree to some extent, there needs to be a balance but someone mentioned earlier on here that you cannot simply drop a player who pulls his weight and more for one that looks promising but is yet to develop into something solid.
These are the lucky breaks in life – some players get it early, some struggle. I mean have we ever stopped to consider what road Frans Steyn would have gone down did JDV not get injured prior to RWC 2012?
As for Bryan himself.
He disappoints me as much as anyone on this site – the fact, as Keo eluded to that he is not only a marked man on the pitch, but in the eyes of media and supporters sometimes makes us overlook just how much he actually contributes because we expect a hat trick from him every game.
Raising our opinion is healthy for rugby debate and players do read this believe me. I just also believe that if we are to criticise players we need to do this fairly.
Bryan is not the version 2007 anymore that made us sit up in our chairs and go ballistic – but like everything in life he evolved and personally I think his game is stronger all round.
It is also difficult because when watching on television you can only follow the ball – sitting at a game you get a complete picture and it is often said the value in a player is sometimes more what he does off the ball than on it.
On the sites;
There was one called ruggastats.com I believe – they are not doing stats anymore but you can find the archives of the 2011 season there.
Paul Treu uses sportcode and Eddie Jones Fair play – perhaps google them together. SA refs also use a very nice one check out their site (you can find it via SArugby.co.za)
I forget now what Jake used but that was also awesome.
I am lucky as I get most of these emailed to me (Verusco stats) but I also believe SuperSport has gotten a lot more comprehensive on stats.
I will see if I can dig up more sites for you.
19 Mar 2012, 17:56 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-90:
I was at a couple of functions where Pienaar was present. Look let’s just say this guy has as many enemies as friends in the rugby world…
19 Mar 2012, 18:14 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-103:
I hear what you’re saying.
It’s a long season ahead so players are bound to get a break somewhere.
I’ll see if I can find those stats and compare it to say a Zac Guilford, their styles are similiar but the only difference is Zac seems much more efficient in what he does whereas Habana does a lot with little impact on the game itself.
19 Mar 2012, 19:20 pm
bryan vs zaccy
hehehe
19 Mar 2012, 20:00 pm
Good god, the show pony has one average game against a depleted Blues team missing all their stars in the back division and now Habs is the messiah again?
19 Mar 2012, 20:37 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-106: although i am in no way giving Mac the credit for starting rush defense , the sharks under mac when **** muir was center were already using the rush defense then , way before GG
19 Mar 2012, 20:45 pm
in the context of the Boks in 2005, alister & jake didn’t come up with that tactic – that was my point.
19 Mar 2012, 20:49 pm
15. Steyn
14. Hougaard
13. Pieterson
12. Sadie
11. Le Roux
10. Goosen
9. Pretorius
8. Koster
7. Alberts
6. Brussow
5. Bekker
4. Etsebeth
3. Oosthuizen
2. Bismark
1. Beast
16. Kitsoff
17. Strauss
18. Kruger
19. Burger
20. Lambie
21. Aplon
22. de Jongh
19 Mar 2012, 20:57 pm
@garth(garth)-110:
Steyn is a 12 not a 15 – he’s found wanting at FB
Sadie is a 13 – not a 12
And le Roux at 11 for what?
And you don’t have a specialist scrummie on the bench as prescribed.
19 Mar 2012, 21:04 pm
If you must compare Ioane to Habana its light vs shade.. and its not Ioane who is in the shade.. Vd Heever is also a better wing than Habana
Habana chased a good testing kick by Duvenhage.. the young Lam got the bounce wrong and waited too long and Habana got exceptionally lucky that it all worked out just dandy on the day..
So that represents MOM performance and all the eulogizing accolades…
One thing I cannot stomach is over the top hail hero worship.. I reckon it sucks an audience into huge false fake adulation about players and blinds the reality from ever being seen for what it is…
If Schalk Burger was still running out at 6 and standing at first receiver most the time Stormers would not be showing the promise they potentially are under JdV’s leadership with a far better all round performance from the cohesive collective team… including the loose trio –
but the reality of the situation is still kept at bay and all the hail hero worshipers cannot come to the clear sighted realization that Stormers are a damn sight better off without Burger stuffing up the works.. they wait with baited breath for him to return and screw Stormers potential chances of doing well in this competition into the dirt as has been the case the past few years under the fake aura of invincibility…
Exactly the same dilemma and false hero worshiping malady fck’d the Boks out the world cup quarters by this archaic notion that John Smit was a necessity for Boks to succeed.. after he had systematically lost almost every single high profile test he led the Boks through the past two years of his awe inspiring captaincy..
Again we have this stigmatic malaise of hero worship ******** up our sense of reality with the next injunction for FdP to be the short term Bok center stage captain under HM..
and likewise this hapless need for scribes and so called rugby boffins to have to be finding a need or an excuse to hail hero worship Bryan Habana way above the level of accolade he should be receiving..
A lucky bounce and a well weighted chased kick fortuitously finding itself into his eager responding hands for a good but not a spectacular try does not suddenly make Bryan Habana a wold beating wing again all of a sardine.. let him keep showing his ability to be highly competitive and a thorn in opposition sides, something along the lines of a strong running Digby Ioane, and I might change my declining view of his immaculate expertise.. but for now I reckon Gerhard Van den Heever at 11 and Gio Aplon at 14 with Joe Pietersen at 15 is a far better more destructive and balanced back three combo for Stormers than the current hero worshiping idealism of Habana – Aplon – Pietersen.
19 Mar 2012, 21:24 pm
Those “human garbage” cape-kiwi supporters. They have no idea why they support foreign teams. Same as Wooden Spoon and all the other clowns who support teams other than their own country’s teams.
These idiots leave a bitter taste in my mouth every time I see them or hear what they have to say. They try so hard to justify their actions. Fact is they are bitter hypocrites who will use any excuse to cover their real political motives and inability to get on with life. They should have a special island somewhere for these okes, surrounded by sharks and only shite to eat.
19 Mar 2012, 21:39 pm
@Kleuter(Kleuter)-113: wooden spoon is a saffa who supports the boks and sharks.
whatthehellareyouonabout?
19 Mar 2012, 21:41 pm
@ashampoopaloo(joel1yahoo)-112: what exactly is your point?
19 Mar 2012, 21:42 pm
Nice
19 Mar 2012, 22:00 pm
viva kleuter! Hahahaha
skop: does kolisi also stand @ first receiver as he is playing schalk’s role? If not why the change in tactic?
19 Mar 2012, 22:05 pm
@rangerman(rangerman)-114: He is a saffa who supports the Sharks and Boks, but supports any other team that plays against the Stormers or Bulls. Same shite as all the other traitors. Those same players he hates so much, ie Stormers/Bulls, play for the Boks. That is hypocritical.
19 Mar 2012, 22:06 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-117:
19 Mar 2012, 22:23 pm
15. Viljoen
14. Aplon
13. Peterson
12. F.Steyn
11. Hougaard
10. M.Steyn
9. du Preez
8. Spies
7. Alberts
6. Brussouw
5. Bekker
4. Kruger
3. j.du Plessis
2. B.du Plessis
1. Beast
16. Chilliboy
17. Kruger
18. Etzebeth
19. Vermeulen
20. Lambie
21. Sadie
22. Habana
19 Mar 2012, 22:23 pm
A big lol.
I see I am making waves even without sampling the water.
I will say it again.
I laaik the Bokke Bokke.
I laaik the Sharks.
I laaik ribeye steak.
I don’t laaik the Bulls.
I don’t laaik the Stormers.
I don’t laaik Kleuter.
See, simple hey? And if you go back and trawl the appropriate posts you will see I expressed my pleasure that the South African Stormers and Bulls won… I support the Boks see? Can’t have those pesky Keevies and Ozzies coming over here and beating the Bulls and Stormers with impunity, not good for the Bokke see? But Lions and Cheetahs over the Bulls and Stormers any day!
Now back in your box, tjop.
19 Mar 2012, 22:24 pm
@Kleuter(Kleuter)-120: If Beast is still injured, I’ll go with either Greyling, Oosthuizen, or Kitshoff.
19 Mar 2012, 22:25 pm
Haha what kn*bs Kleuter and transformation are.
19 Mar 2012, 22:25 pm
SHARKS!
Now toodle pip and play nice boys, girls, and kleuter and tranny.
19 Mar 2012, 22:29 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-121: Regardless, I still think you are a loser. A bitterbek Shark-fan who is only interested in his beloved Sharkies.
Sorry tjop, you will always be a tjop in my books. WTF are you pooping in to see who says what about you in any case. Go sleep loser. And don’t think you can say congrats Stormers/Bulls and then carry on bitterbekking everything that looks or sounds like a Bull or Stormer.
Now get lost.
19 Mar 2012, 22:29 pm
What I did say was naaice was the Stormers not getting a bonus point! Bigfuckendeal but boy did that sour the milk with the Stompie fans!
19 Mar 2012, 22:30 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-123:Trilneus. lol.
19 Mar 2012, 22:31 pm
Is this fair?
By the time the Cheetahs play their 8th consecutive game( clearly no bye w-end) of this new S15 season, the Stormers will only be playing their 6th game after their 2nd bye w-end already.
The smaller franchises that most need all the rugby support that is available, get the least.
19 Mar 2012, 22:31 pm
@Kleuter(Kleuter)-125: haha do you REALLY think I give two tosses what you think tjop?
Haha this is not a popularity contest. Carry on reacting like a little baby, I’m loving it tjop!
19 Mar 2012, 22:31 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-126: Listen soutpiellietjie, I’m not in the mood for abusing you, so log off and go to bed.
19 Mar 2012, 22:32 pm
@rangerman(rangerman)-114: oh ja! I also called Tiaan Liebenberg and Duane Vermeulen “tjops”. Didn’t go down well on here. As you can see, I’m now Stompie public enemy numero uno!
19 Mar 2012, 22:33 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-129: Stop being a little cry baby boytjie. Relax and chill a bit. You’re making a fool of yoursef…. AGAIN. Your assss has been kicked so many times you dont even realize how silly and stupid you sound anymore.
19 Mar 2012, 22:34 pm
@Kleuter(Kleuter)-130: ooooh what a big man you are, throwing your weight around like a silly little pr*ck! I love how easy it is to get under your skin. You must be a bonehead!
19 Mar 2012, 22:34 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-131: What did I just say? There you make a poephol of yourself again. I’m not a Stormer seun. Get a grip.
19 Mar 2012, 22:35 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-133: LOL. Getting peeweed off I see. Flexing on me boy?
19 Mar 2012, 22:35 pm
whatafuckendoos.
19 Mar 2012, 22:36 pm
@Kleuter(Kleuter)-135: Its time you realize that this is a site for grown-ups. Not a place for dingbats like you to flex your pc muscles. lol.
19 Mar 2012, 22:36 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-136: Calling me a doos willyou? LOL.
19 Mar 2012, 22:37 pm
keep going.
19 Mar 2012, 22:37 pm
Okay, lights off for you seun.
19 Mar 2012, 22:43 pm
no, seriously, keep going, I want more
19 Mar 2012, 22:52 pm
hehe
20 Mar 2012, 04:53 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-90:
Trans, see if you can get your hands on this book, it will tell you the story with some very interesting insides on what happened. Great read by the way.
The Rugby War
Peter FitzSimons
ISBN: 9780732278823
ISBN10: 0732278821
20 Mar 2012, 06:27 am
Thanks Slarti!
20 Mar 2012, 06:39 am
@Kleuter(Kleuter)-130: soutpiellietjie?
what does that make you, rock spider or hairyback?
its ok to disagree with someone but if you want to start with the epitaphs, then understand where you are headed ok?
20 Mar 2012, 06:42 am
in fact maybe kleuters is a vaalpiellietjie?
one foot in orania, one foot in loftus, piellie dangling in what river all you people educated before OBE?
20 Mar 2012, 06:47 am
@IAAS(I am a stormer)-111: I don’t recall Frans being found wanting at 15, it’s just a good idea having him closer to the action. He is currently the best 12 and 15 option we have. How else do you accomodate all these players into one team?
Steyn, Hougaard, Pieterson, Sadie, Le Roux, Goosen, Pretorius
Le Roux has been the best winger in the comp. I must admit that I have not watched every minute he has played, but from what I have seen I can comfortably say this guy is international class. I have just checked and can also confirm that test rugby has rated him as the top OB so far… not that I read a hell of a lot in their stats. Brussouw, Goosen, Le Roux and Coenie are staring for the Cheetahs.
20 Mar 2012, 09:40 am
seems our mate kleuter is still fighting the boer war in that little head of his.
and trannie is covering his back.
8)
20 Mar 2012, 10:11 am
He is one steenspinnekop with a screw loose, alright.
20 Mar 2012, 11:21 am
Guys Willie le Roux has had 2 good games…Just 2 vs Brumbies & Rebels probably 2 of the 4 weakest teams in competition(add Cheetahs,Lions).
Easy with the hyperboles of “international class” etc
In those teams he has also yet to face an international class winger(Vuna,Speight etc arent)
But he is definitely one of the Cheetahs bright lights
20 Mar 2012, 11:24 am
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-150: Watch him have a blinder against the Crusaders this week and outplay Dagger Boy. Willie Le Roux for Boks this year join the hype! lol
20 Mar 2012, 11:32 am
@garth(garth)-147: Agree 100% he looks pure class. Even when he standing around doing nothing he looks great! I am sure he will make the larger Bok whether its for Tri-nations, england series or EOYT
20 Mar 2012, 11:42 am
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-150: you are racist
20 Mar 2012, 11:47 am
@Sasuke(Sasuke)-152: where was willie le roux against the bulls?
20 Mar 2012, 13:00 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-154: The whole team played poorly against the Bulls.
20 Mar 2012, 13:02 pm
@Sasuke(Sasuke)-155: You cant expect him to shine in a team thats getting hammered.
20 Mar 2012, 13:04 pm
He had one very lucky chance try and he’s now back in form. Sounds a bit too optimistic for someone that has been less than ordinary up to that point.
Does this mean if Kanko scores a try on his return from injury, he’s the next best thing?
20 Mar 2012, 13:05 pm
Habana always loked like he was trying hard but wasnt getting enough quality ball.. due largely to De Villiers’ “bash-it-up” frame of mind. It was great to see doing what we know them to be capable of.
20 Mar 2012, 13:07 pm
@ Rangerman
Listen china, WTF are you? Woodies sidekick? Buzz Lightyear? Stay out of my bus okay broer! Wanna start name-calling? Let’s go arrsewipe
20 Mar 2012, 13:21 pm
@Sasuke(Sasuke)-151: Zac will skin him alive !!!!
20 Mar 2012, 13:24 pm
@stew(stew)-160: Zac “The Naked Patron” Guildford?
20 Mar 2012, 13:27 pm
@Kleuter(Kleuter)-118:
Well its odd.
I support the Hurricanes, always. But i wont always support Crusadrers or Blues just cos they are Kiwis.
If they win or lose, so what. As long as they dont mees with my Hurricanes, all is good.
I will support any team if it means my Hurricanes gets closer to the the top of the table.
I cant imagine you supporting a Bok if it meant your own team being kicked out of a top 8 finish.
Do you play Superbru, do you pick all SA teams to win. If you dont is that being a traitor as well?
20 Mar 2012, 13:29 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-161:
I hear they just body paint him now.
20 Mar 2012, 13:36 pm
@stew(stew)-160: Zac would first have to see him then be able to catch him!
20 Mar 2012, 17:58 pm
Habana is a ‘has been’ so let’s leave it at that!
20 Mar 2012, 18:02 pm
That le Roux fella for the Cheetahs- HUGE potential
21 Mar 2012, 01:07 am
Habana couldnt even catch a virus in a Nazi test lab.
21 Mar 2012, 03:10 am
So very funny, there’s some w*nker who has stolen my nic, some Yappie sideshow no doubt
21 Mar 2012, 03:13 am
@PrickBoks going South(PrickBoks going South)-167: get your own nick you arseh*le
21 Mar 2012, 03:13 am
@PrickBoks going South(PrickBoks going South)-167: nic that is
21 Mar 2012, 03:17 am
Habana couldnt even catch a virus in a Nazi test lab.
21 Mar 2012, 04:23 am
Hahaha.
You can’t even tell the difference.
He posts the same **** as you do.
Sweet like a lemon china.
21 Mar 2012, 06:34 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-154: He can step and looks exciting everytime he touches the ball, much like Hougaard on the wing. He is miles ahead of the incumbent, Habana. He is not going to be the star in every game and his performance needs to be measured over the entire season to make the squad, but the team I put down was purely based on current form.
21 Mar 2012, 06:47 am
@the artist formerly known as gunther(gunther)-172: shame he had to copy someone else’s nic, bit like your countrymen Yappie boy, always trailing in the bigger kids footsteps trying to mimick…
22 Mar 2012, 06:41 am
is to mimic another the lobotomized Yappie version of flattery ?
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