Lions set for chop?
11 May 2012
Saru has confirmed its plan to relegate the last-placed South African franchise at the end of the season.
This proposed solution was made by Saru’s executive council at its special general meeting in January. The top four teams on the SA conference log would therefore join the Kings in 2013. As it stands, the Lions would drop out.
Saru said a promotion-relegation play-off would then take place after the 2013 and 2014 campaigns.
However, the franchises requested that a decision on the mechanism of qualification be postponed to allow them time to make alternative proposals. The officials at the general meeting accepted the request. Saru CEO Jurie Roux asked for it to be recorded that this delay was at the franchises’ request, therefore precluding the franchises from criticism of late decision-making.
A final decision will be made after meetings with the SA Super Rugby franchises on 17 May, the Saru executive committee on 24 May and the Saru general council on 13 July (21 rounds into the 2012 Super Rugby tournament).
‘Rugby has been consistently united in supporting the Kings’ place in Super Rugby in 2013,’ said Roux. ‘Our focus has been on finding a rugby answer to the questions that flow from that that’s fair, transparent in its mechanism and will strengthen South African rugby in the long run. Those discussions continue.
‘Until a final decision is reached, the franchises and the Saru presidency are agreed that it would be unhelpful to the competing teams to publicly debate the pros and cons of different scenarios. When a decision is announced we will be able to report back to rugby supporters in full.’
305 Comments
11 May 2012, 08:05 am
This will be the end of these Dragons if it’s true.
11 May 2012, 08:05 am
Bye-bye Lions.
Welcome to the Bulls Elton!
11 May 2012, 08:06 am
not a bad cut & paste job….
11 May 2012, 08:07 am
@Taahirah(Taahirah)-2: you talking of maaaaaaaaaybe Vodacom cup?
11 May 2012, 08:12 am
@Staal(Staal)-4: lol. I know you dont rate him. What you think of his younger brother?
And which Lion players, if any, would you welcome into the Bulls fold?
11 May 2012, 08:16 am
as they say…
If you want to succeed in politics you must keep your conscience well under control…
imo this is all politics and Zero to do with rugby…
we can honestly only have maybe 4 S15 teams and compete… maybe….
11 May 2012, 08:17 am
I predict a riot.
SARU be prepared to open your wallets and purses because the Lions are going to come at ya for loss of revenue and, well, being a bunch of douche bags basically.
Not that I care either way.
GO SHARKS!
11 May 2012, 08:18 am
If there is a promotion/relegation playoff the Lions will only be out for one season. After that the Kings will probably just keep losing playoffs and the status quo is unlikely to change unless the Superugby format changes.
11 May 2012, 08:19 am
@Taahirah(Taahirah)-5: Elton = turnstile with a bad heirdo… imo.
Brother = average…imo.
Lions? I rate quite a few of the younger guys and imo Mitchell is doing a great job although they are getting klapped. I mean they have now got 7gazillllion locks injured!
Naw i rate Mitchell.
11 May 2012, 08:21 am
@Taahirah(Taahirah)-5:
his baby boet should not be playing rugby, because i dont he is really a rugby player. i think he is following his fathers heart and not his own. have watched him enough in vodacom cup to think this is the case.
elton can be better than he is now perhaps but i dont think he will ever supersede lambie, goosen, morne or fouche.
11 May 2012, 08:22 am
Mmmm wouldnt mind braaing chops tonite.
11 May 2012, 08:22 am
@Taahirah(Taahirah)-2: Hulle gaan hom bliksem in Hatfield met daai hairdo……
11 May 2012, 08:24 am
i’ll rather have a massive player base (3xS15 teams)and win the S15 more times than have 5xS15 teams with a win “now & then”
Less S15 games, more longer tours…. but ya i know it’s all dreams.
11 May 2012, 08:27 am
@KWAGGA ROBERTSE(KWAGGA ROBERTSE)-12:
He does live in Pretoria at the moment though. Valhalla. Dont know whether he ever frequents Hatfield.
11 May 2012, 08:27 am
Ok. So lets say this happens and Lions fall out. Kings WILL get moered next year.
Then after that they will play relegation matches against the Lions. Lions gets back into Super Rugby, Kings are out! So all this politics just to have the Kings play one season.
What a waste of time and money!!!
11 May 2012, 08:28 am
@Staal(Staal)-13: Stem staal. Hierdie hele uitgerekte ding het meer die trefkrag soos n S12 gehad het nie. Krag teen krag elke naweek. Die conference ding is ook sommer n klomp rubbish.
11 May 2012, 08:29 am
So we are going to have 5 super rugby teams next year, 3 of which will be coached by kiwis!
11 May 2012, 08:30 am
Very unfair. Its not as if teams were given warning of this a year or 2 ago. I can’t bring myself to be supportive of the kings.
11 May 2012, 08:31 am
@Sasuke(Sasuke)-11:
fark yes!
11 May 2012, 08:33 am
So SARU excuses themselves by saying that the latest delay was caused by the franchises.
What were they thinking. They told the franchises a month before the competition starts that one of them will not be there next year and they expect the franchises to just accept this and move on.
The franchises are the real money spinners in SA Rugby. They are not the lesser provinces who didn’t really have a choice when SARU chopped the Currie Cup’s numbers and just had to go with it.
I hope the Lions gets the job, but not because I don’t want them in the comp. I just think they have a better chance at taking SARU to the cleaners than the Cheetahs have.
11 May 2012, 08:33 am
Can’t wait for the Kings’ frst match against the Saders!!! I predict 3 digit scores next year
11 May 2012, 08:34 am
*job = chop
11 May 2012, 08:35 am
15@ Chris….. I think you have a good point there.
11 May 2012, 08:37 am
@Chris4Lions(Chris4Lions)-15:
no, the point is for your teams to fight harder to prove you deserve participation…every season…
we are tired of the free lunch spread you put on for the kiwis year after year.
11 May 2012, 08:37 am
Lions to get chop? And its not their f*****n fire-skin! SARU must get ready for a lengthy court-battle over lost revenues…
11 May 2012, 08:39 am
Interresting. I read this on News 24 earlier this morning. So if that’s the case and the Lions get the chop, do they actually have a case against SARU?
From all I’ve read the Super Rugby contacts all expire at the end of this year and SARU is under no contractual obligation to renew specifically with the GLRU.
This has gone on for the year so the Lions can hardly say that there hasn’t been a consultative process.
“Jurie Roux asked for it to be recorded that this delay was at the franchises’ request, therefore precluding the franchises from criticism of late decision-making.”
That’s legalese for CYA. Big time.
What they should also have recorded was that the whole process was agreed upon based on the premise that there would be an additional team, not that someone would have to be relegated. There’s no way that the Cheetahs and Lions (the only real candidates for relegation at the beginning of the season) would have voted for that if they were going to be in the relegation firing line.
That, if anything, is the most likely basis for court action at a later stage if you ask me.
Makes no difference though.
In the words of the great Status Quo:
Get down deeper and down
Down down deeper and down
Down down deeper and down
Get down deeper and down
I want all the world to see
To see you’re laughing
And you’re laughing at me
I can take it all from you
Again again again again again again again
Deeper and down
Down down deeper and down
Down down deeper and down
Down down deeper and down
Get down deeper and down
I have all the ways you see
To keep you guessing
Stop your messing with me
You’ll be back to find your way
Again again again again again again again
Deeper and down
Down down deeper and down
Down down deeper and down
Down down deeper and down
Get down
11 May 2012, 08:39 am
@Vegas(Vegas)-21: Does Superbru make provision for three digit scores……..They better sort it out……
11 May 2012, 08:40 am
@PieterJordaan(PieterJordaan)-25: I see you watched Snatch!!!
11 May 2012, 08:42 am
@PieterJordaan(PieterJordaan)-25: fore-skin..
11 May 2012, 08:43 am
@KWAGGA ROBERTSE(KWAGGA ROBERTSE)-28: And you know it!! thought about it when I saw the heading. You know why they call him franky four fingers…?
11 May 2012, 08:48 am
@PieterJordaan(PieterJordaan)-30: Classic movie that one!! Lock stock and two smoking barrels, throw in a bit of Tarentino and you got a serias big movie night.
11 May 2012, 08:50 am
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-26:
well thats pretty much it then.
besides, its not as iff they dont deserve it.
i dont believe the kings do, but neither do they.
11 May 2012, 08:50 am
A question mark at the end of the title.
SARUs “proposed” solution revealed.
Watson rejecting a playing a promotion relegation match end of 2013 season.
Franchises telling SARU to get stuffed.
Weee dwarf man spinning like crazy.
Interesting indeed!
11 May 2012, 08:50 am
Hehe. Politics indeed. Typical top management decision to throw the problem to the franchises and ‘wash their hands’ of anything.
I expect the Lions will now start a media campaign to get public sympathy… all typical politics.
11 May 2012, 08:53 am
@RL(RL)-33:
not so confident anymore?
11 May 2012, 08:53 am
@houston, we have a problem…(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-32: Ja looks like it hey?
As you say. the Kings don’t deserve it either.
11 May 2012, 08:56 am
This is going to affect the Bulls extremely negatively!
Our Super Rugby record winning margin of 92-3 is going to be broken!
Thankfully, our record winning margin in a final will be safe, as these Kings won’t smell second last spot in the comp, nevermind ever getting a chance to lose by a record margin in a final..
11 May 2012, 09:01 am
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-37: Well your team will have a crack at beating it.
11 May 2012, 09:01 am
Good news for the South African teams next year. This means 10 points they don’t even have to break sweat for!
11 May 2012, 09:01 am
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-38:
True. Never thought of that.
11 May 2012, 09:04 am
Cheetahs could do well by securing 2or 3 good lions players for next season – not Mapoe thou -good player -too much bad history and injuries .
Mabe that big you g lock that rattled Ashley’s cage a bit .
Feel sorry for the lions thou
11 May 2012, 09:05 am
As I’ve said before, as much as this sucks for the Lions and I disagree with the whole thing, this is actually good news for the other 4 SA teams in the Comp for next year, as they will be practically guaranteed a 10 point haul (home and away) against the Kings, something that the lions have never guaranteed (at least not against local teams, overseas teams is another matter entirely).
The fact that the Lions love to roll over and play dead for the Australasians on a regular basis and then suddenly wake up and do something stupid at the end of the season like beat a fancied local team to deny them home ground advantage in the playoffs or something like that is enough reason to boot them from the competition alone.
Bladdy agents.
11 May 2012, 09:06 am
@houston, we have a problem…(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-32: talking like a true Keo supporter…
11 May 2012, 09:07 am
This entire situation can be solved with money.
If the Lions get compensated for not participating in the Super 15 – say with a R15m payout or something, then they can retain their players, and just loan them out to other franchises during the S15 – thus giving the players the Super Rugby exposure they will require.
Then, when it comes to promotion relegation play-off time, they get all their players back and smack the Kings six love, and they’re back in the comp in 2014.
Then the Kings get compensation to do the same in the year that they’re out, and try their luck at promotion relegation again for 2015.
Bottomline is, if SARU want the Kings in, they got to pay the team that has to sit out. Nothing is for free in this world.
11 May 2012, 09:08 am
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-37: Come on, PE is like traveling overseas for the Bulls. And we all know what that entails.
11 May 2012, 09:09 am
Interesting times
Wonder how Cheeky Watson manages to pull strings at SARU
11 May 2012, 09:10 am
Maybe this is all a blessing in disguis for the Lions.
I will admit that we have been playing kak rugby for the last 10 years, so if a team must be relegated it then it must be the Lions. (Feels kak saying that)
The Lions can now build on the future and take nothing for granted. The previous management were apaling. Coaches were Ludeke, Eloff – They couldnt do anything worth remembering. The blame has to be with the management. Why did the Lions not keep theyre good contracted players? Why didnt they sign star players? Everyone knows that average players will get you only that far. hence the reason that there is almost no springboks in the Lions squad. If a team cant develop/retain Springbok quality players then you wont survive against other teams.
The Lions has been scrapping above theyre weight for many years now. The cc last year was just a fluke to get our hopes high, but alas after this years performances so far, the Lions are dying a slow death.
Lions has an excellent coach in Mitchell, new management. All we need now are some new sponsers willing to fight it out and get some exciting players onboard. So come 2013, rebuild the team and come back in 2014 as title contenders
11 May 2012, 09:10 am
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-42:
As much as it’s always “Bulls first” for me, I totally disagree with your approach in this case.
If the Big 5 don’t stay united on this issue, what’s to stop SARU using similar authoritarian methods against the Bulls in future, or the Stormers?
It reminds me of that old story where the guy says when they came to take all the Gypsies away, he said nothing. When they came to take all the Jews away, he said nothing. When they came to take all the intellectuals away, he said nothing.
Then when they came to take him away, there was no one left to say anything.
Point is, once SARU succeed in isolating one of the Big 5, they have won. And will be able to win again in future.
11 May 2012, 09:11 am
@>^..^< katman(katman)-45:
There are more Bulls supporters in PE than Kings supporters.
11 May 2012, 09:11 am
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-49:
Unless you include those bused in from the Township with freebie tickets.
11 May 2012, 09:13 am
Bussed.
11 May 2012, 09:13 am
Wouldn’t an amalgamation with the Bulls make sense? Logistically no problem. The question is would the Lions want that?
11 May 2012, 09:16 am
This whole Kings fiasco is just a perfect little microcosm of the current SA situation. Greedy politicians of the New Order jostle for position at the feeding trough, along with their superconnected business pals. And those who have long ago forsaken their morals rush to cling to their skirts, hoping for some of the juicy morsels to be flung their way. Sometimes this pays off, and a few people strike it lucky by backing the right horse. And sometimes people misjudge the political longevity of certain fatcats and find themselves backpedaling when said fatfuck is snatched away from the feeding trough and cast into the wilderness. Exciting times for the HSM/Keo lot. Could go any way.
11 May 2012, 09:17 am
Several red herrings amongst the posts here.
The Kings will struggle, but they won’t struggle simply because they are the Kings. The reality is that any 5th South African rugby franchise will struggle in a Super competition, as we don’t have the quality in depth of resources.
I don’t believe the Kings will be much worse than the Lions, if any. In fact, I expect many of the Lions players to actually feature for the Kings next year.
As long as the best 110 rugby players in the country play Super Rugby, I don’t care if Boland or the Griffons feature as a 5th franchise. But the reality is that we don’t have 110 players to compete at that level. We might have closer to 90.
The Super competition has become too big. We cannot field 5 franchises at that level.
11 May 2012, 09:17 am
I’ve always wanted there to be a relegation system. Its the only reason the cheetahs performed on there tour because they feared relegation and as soon as they saw how k a k the lions were doing there intensity droped.
Thats why for so long the derby’s were massive games because its the only games the cheetahs and lions cared about.
11 May 2012, 09:21 am
What would happen to all the Lions players in the lower rankings? If this squad gets retained for next years Vodacom Cup (Most of the players will still be contracted)then they will kill the comp next year, and where will the Lions yougsters (current vodacom cup team)get game time?
This is all a farce!!
11 May 2012, 09:21 am
@Bill Reyts(Gumboots)-52:
Your incessant trolling on this issue is getting tiresome.
11 May 2012, 09:22 am
@willievz(willievz)-54: So what will change for SA rugby overall? Yes – good news for the Kings and bad for the Lions. But if it means we pretty much have the top Lions players playing at a new stadium and under a new coach, what has changed?
11 May 2012, 09:23 am
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-48: There is nothing. The protection mechanism stem from the fact that SARU is an elected body made up of representatives from all the Unions, and that they all have a say in what happens.
As I posted at the beginning of the post, I disagree with it.
But I hardly think that relegating one of the worst performing professional sports franchises of any sport world-wide can be equated to the wholesale slaughter of minorities by oppressive dictatorships.
I get your point though.
11 May 2012, 09:25 am
@Bokhoring(Bokhoring)-58: Exactly.
The real issue is the existence of 5 franchises.
We simply don’t have the depth in quality to have a 5th.
11 May 2012, 09:25 am
This is great news, we’ll take Doppies!!!
Whats that? Oh
Never mind.
11 May 2012, 09:25 am
Wasnt the Kings created to develop and keep players in the EC? didnt they say the wanted to showcase the talent there?
So why are they going to import players if the get the chance next year? Isnt it defeating the whole point of theit excistance!!
11 May 2012, 09:29 am
@Chris4Lions(Chris4Lions)-62: All spin.
They know they will need to be competitive, considering the political albatross around the franchise’s neck.
How many black players currently play for EP province?
11 May 2012, 09:29 am
SANZAR’s broadcast agreements require that all 3 nations ensure that the best players of that country are fielded in the Super Rugby competition – and these have all have been contracted.
Reinforcing this is the new Springbok Coach Heyneke Mayer – not including a single player in elite player monitoring, for Springbok selection – from either Border, Eastern Province and SWD.
What does that tell you?
It tells you that not even SARU and their blue eyed boy Heyneke Meyer sees any potential in the Eastern Cape.
Then there is the letter the franchises gave SARU a coupe of months ago, that no one franchise should sit out of the 2013 Super Rugby competition at the expense of another.
The buck stops at the feet of SARU’s Hoskins, Mark Alexander, Jurie Roux, Andy Marinos and James Stoffberg and NOT the 6 South African franchises.
How on God’s Earth has it taken 8 years to resolve?
SANZAR and the SARU sponsors must wince each time this raises its head.
So SARU will have to dig deep and pay the franchise sitting out R20m – as these are the liabilities to season ticket holders, sponsors, suite holders and contracted players.
This is SARU’s mess and they must fix it or pay for it.
11 May 2012, 09:29 am
@Chris4Lions(Chris4Lions)-62: 200 000 players champing at the Super Rugby bit, apparently. Cheeky says he doesn’t have any of their email addresses.
11 May 2012, 09:31 am
As Pissant said so well a month or so ago, this is just a case of re-arranging the deck chairs.
That’s all, with different people feeding out of the trough as Katman said.
11 May 2012, 09:36 am
I personally would love this abortion called the S15 to be chucked in the rubbish bin, and a real super rugby competition re-instated with at most 12 teams in the final round, with an initial qualification round in each country
However the News Corps will never allow that to happen
11 May 2012, 09:36 am
@John Galt(John Galt)-57:
It is a valid point. Go to comfortdotcom if you have issues.
11 May 2012, 09:50 am
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-59:
The point is, the Big 5 are able to exert influence far great than their percentage of votes – if they act unanimously. Once they are split, then it merely becomes a one union one vote system – or however the vote allocation works.
11 May 2012, 09:52 am
@Chris4Lions(Chris4Lions)-62: i wouldn’t worry if i were you, SARU has a way of doing quick about-turns and jerk the South Eastern Cape around.
three more meetings to go? i promise you by the 13th Jew Lie cheeky will be crying tears like Tony Mckeever!
11 May 2012, 09:55 am
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-69: Classic prisoner’s dilemma this.
11 May 2012, 10:02 am
The biggest risk the Lions face is maintaining their player base. If the other 4 franchises want to support them they should loan these core players for the Super Season thus ensuring these players remain with the Lions and do not head off to the Kings. By the time the relegation matches surface the lions will still have their main player base and the Kings will still be rubbish and that will be the end of the Kings…
11 May 2012, 10:05 am
Good riddance. I am sick of these Lions. That Administration belongs nowhere near a professional rugby set up.
Good bye. Good luck… now f-off!
11 May 2012, 10:08 am
@willievz(willievz)-71:
In a way. But not quite. Because in the prisoners dillemma, an individual actually has a chance to profit MORE if he screws his partner – as long as the partner doesn’t know he’s going to screw him
In this case. all 5 Big Unions stood to gain, if they just stuck together. By ******** the Lions, the other 4 haven’t improved their own position, they just held the wolf at bay a bit longer.
11 May 2012, 10:10 am
Now we sit back & wait for those feeding from the trough to start claiming their “bonuses” for bringing Super rugby to the Eastern Cape.
CSA’s bonus scandal will pale by comparison…
11 May 2012, 10:13 am
@BrumbiesBoy(BrumbiesBoy)-75: bwahahahahaha
11 May 2012, 10:15 am
Sorry guys but Lions will not be out for 1 season… It will be 2… Go read the article again… The Kings are guaranteed 2 seasons…
11 May 2012, 10:21 am
@THE MAULER(THE MAULER)-77: what does this mean then? “Saru said a promotion-relegation play-off would then take place after the 2013 and 2014 campaigns.”
11 May 2012, 10:26 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-78:
It means SARU are hoping that after 2014 there will be no need for a relegation game and they can have a 6th side in Super Rugby… newsflash… there will not be a 6th team from any of the SANZAR sides… and rightly so…
11 May 2012, 10:34 am
@THE MAULER(THE MAULER)-77:
Fail at comprehension. It’s 1 guaranteed season.
11 May 2012, 10:36 am
Read it again Transie… Means after both those campaigns…
11 May 2012, 10:36 am
Why say after 2013 and 2014 why not say after each campaign?
11 May 2012, 10:36 am
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-74: At this stage the Kings is a partner, and a potential target to be screwed.
11 May 2012, 10:40 am
@SteveWarren(SteveWarren)-55: That’s a bit of a stupid statement to make. The Cheetahs lost 2 games back home (both in the dying seconds) against 2 of the top 5 teams. The only bad game since being back from the tour was against the Force, which they did win. (They ended up playing a typical Stormers/Sharks game)
Also remember that the Cheetahs won’t play this season against 2 teams that everyone else is bagging points with.
In other words, there was nothing wrong with the Cheetahs intensity against the Chiefs and Highlanders… except for the last few minutes, but that’s been a problem the whole season, even overseas.
11 May 2012, 10:40 am
@Staal(Staal)-9: Elton a turnstile?, talk about pre-conceived prejudice, why dont you go ask Johan Goosen, what’s he think about the turnstile, you so proclaim?
11 May 2012, 10:41 am
The EP Kings are not guaranteed a slot in 2013.
If they were guaranteed a slot, there would not be this debate and SARU would not have to put out a release.
This subject is still under debate and the mind boggles why SARU have not been able to come up with options in over 8 years, so whether it is the 17 May and 13 July a tournament structure needs to be put in place that will not disrupt rugby in SA.
Can anyone provide the names of any players from the Eastern Cape that Heyneke Meyer has tapped to test for potential Springbok selection?
11 May 2012, 10:41 am
@willievz(willievz)-83:
Partner my ***. They are the enemy personified. Bloody gravy train piggs ready to start feeding.
Someone on here recently called it Broad Bottomed Empowerment. My new favourite term.
11 May 2012, 10:42 am
@THE MAULER(THE MAULER)-82:
Lol!!!!!!!
11 May 2012, 10:45 am
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-74: I put it to you that it is very much in the interests of the other unions to have the Lions relegated.
Think of the players leaving the Lions that the other unions would love to get theor hands on. Take the Bulls for example, they’d love to get their hands on a backup flyhlaf perhaps, another no 5 lock and a fetcher like Minnie, Think of the Cheetahs. They could use Van Zyl, Taute, etc. And I’d be willing to bet that all the top Lions players would rather play for the other franchises than the Kings.
So the prisoner’s dilemma applies very well here I think.
11 May 2012, 10:46 am
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-87: Rugby is a business, and businesses need to be profitable.
The Kings will usurp all the fringe Super players from the Lions in next year’s competition, mark my words.
I’ll repeat a previous question in another post – how many black players currently play for EP?
11 May 2012, 10:48 am
@KWAGGA ROBERTSE(KWAGGA ROBERTSE)-31: Rocknrolla isn’t bad either.
11 May 2012, 10:50 am
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-89: Sorry spelling. Was on the phone.
Multitask fail.
11 May 2012, 10:53 am
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-89:
Those are short term gains – and in my view outweighted by the weakening of the overall clout of the Big 5 – as the Kings will now always side with the smaller unions against them out of principle – thus reducing them to the Big 4 against everyone else – as well as the uncertainty created by the Lions demise.
What if a Cats merger is insisted upon? Then the Cheetahs lose out.
What if a Bulls merger is insisted upon? Then the Bulls lose out.
The relegation of the Lions erodes the fundamental premise that the “Great Unions” had a de facto historal right to Super Rugby participation. Now that a 100 year old union like the Lions got the chop, what’s to stop the Bulls or Sharks going the same way if they have a bad season?
It was in their best interest to protect the status quo.
To me the Big 5 have a perpetual right to be there, based on history. And if they don’t perform, then they need to be assisted to rise to the top again. Not kicked out in exchange for some Broad Bottomed newcomers with an inborn sense of entitlement.
11 May 2012, 10:54 am
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-50: That is insulting, arrogant, ignorant and down right racists claptrap, you moron. The fact that the economy dictates that a guy from Zwide is not as well off as a white guy from Summerstrand, that doesn’t mean the white oke in burbs is more of a rugby person than the other guy, phucken idiot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
11 May 2012, 10:54 am
Outweighed. My typing has taken a serious nose dive in the last few months. Especially when my thoughts are two sentences ahead of where my fingers are.
11 May 2012, 10:56 am
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-94:
No, but it means the union will sell more merchandise to him, get more gate income from him, and attract more paying sponsors due to him, thus making him more worthwhile as a supporter from a financial perspective than the equivalent guy who got a free ticket.
11 May 2012, 10:59 am
This really shows how worthless a Currie Cup title is nowadays….
11 May 2012, 11:02 am
@ossewa(ossewa)-97:
Umm… world cup year???
11 May 2012, 11:05 am
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-93:
No union deserves anything.
The 5 franchises are not supposed to be 5 unions anyway. They are seperate legal entities.
And I don’t believe for a second that you wouldn’t have a chuckle at the Stormers missing out on a Super rugby place.
11 May 2012, 11:05 am
It will break my heart if the Lions get ‘relegated’/ shafted .. but it is not the end of the world.
The silver lining is that I can just enjoy watching rugby, and a real bonus is that because I’ll support every team playing against the kings I’ll have that winning feeling basically every weekend
)
You can bullsh*t all you like, the Lions are still one of the top 5 rugby unions in SA who are always in contention for the CC, and this gives them the right to play above the kings who are made up of 3 teams that dwindle in the B section of the CC.
11 May 2012, 11:08 am
@willievz(willievz)-99:
If the competition was reduced to only 4 or 3 teams per country, then some would inevitably fall out.
But if a traditional powerhouse has to make way for the Broad Bottomened Kings, for political reasons, then no, I am not happy with it. Even if it is the Stormers.
11 May 2012, 11:09 am
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-93: Fair point, however human nature is such (these days) that I’d be surprised if anyone ever postponed short term benefit for possible long term gain any more.
But I don;t agree that the unions have a guaranteed perpetual right to remain in the competition.
Look at some of the great clubs of English Football.
Some that won the league in the ’60s aren’t even in the top flight any more. And rightfully so, despite what nostalgic fans may say. Meritocracy rules.
11 May 2012, 11:09 am
I think many bloggers need to revisit the difference between unions and franchises.
They are not the same.
11 May 2012, 11:12 am
Was the E/Cape (of which the Kings will be made up) not part of the Coastal Sharks when super rugby started?
If memory serves they sold their rights to be part of super rugby to the Sharks?
Now the piggy’s are hungry and want to feed again?
11 May 2012, 11:13 am
Well don’t mind if I missinterpreted a sentence…
11 May 2012, 11:13 am
@PieterJordaan(PieterJordaan)-43:
no man, take the kings out of the equation and focus on how kak the lions are and have been for 16 years..?..
11 May 2012, 11:14 am
@willievz(willievz)-103:
That is a long running debate. I have shown evidence to demonstrate that the Best performing teams from South Africa are the ones that consisted virtually exclusively of players from the Big Union the franchise represents.
And in contrast to you, I argue that this is how it should be. The continuity built up from the Currie Cup season – especially after a number of consecutive seasons of performance – such as achieved by Meyer at the Bulls – is the only proven success recipe for Super Rugby success by a South African team.
So while you may think that there shoudl be a seperation between Union and Franchise, I have always argued the contrary. And am borne out by the reality of the situation, in the case of the Bulls, Sharks and Stormers.
Show me the non Bulls, Sharks or WP players in their match 22′s, please.
11 May 2012, 11:19 am
The vitriol here reminds me back in the early 2000′s when cricket moved from the provincial structure to franchises, all the usual kenners, who happened to white were saying the same thing about EP/Border cricket, we have seen it all before.
If that lot wasn’t forced into that arrangement back then, the likes of Ntini, Parnell, Tsotsobe, Rusty Theron, Colin Ingram, Ashwell Prince, Johan Botha would be playing for the Lions, Dolphins, WP or Titans.
To remind you, back in 2000′s EP/Border cricket was bankrupt and bleeding players to “bigger” unions, now the Warriors boast a minimum of 7 Proteas, no other union comes close to them, well, WP will now, that they have bought Boucher and Steyn.
Guess which franchise has represented SA in the World Franchise Tournament more than any other franchise?
11 May 2012, 11:26 am
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-107: But those top Currie Cup teams you are referring to are de facto beneficiaries of Super Rugby money. A question for you, would these CC unions be these gladiators without Rupert Murdoch’s money?
11 May 2012, 11:27 am
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-94: you’re wasting your breath (or in this case bandwidth), Tac is bonafide elitist.
fate dealt his a kak hand when he was born in south africa, he should’ve been born in switzerland or something
11 May 2012, 11:32 am
The reality is that the 5 SA franchises are built around the 5 strongest CC unions, and that is what has and will always make sense.
For the odd exception every now and then the 5 unions which dominate the CC and are in real contention to be champions for the last 20 years have been Lions, Bulls, WP, Cheetahs and Sharks.
These are the teams around which rightfully the franchises are build .. it makes business and just plain normal sense. To give yourself the best chance you have to use your strongest options.
If I had my way I would prefer the s12 to return anyway .. with the top 4 CC teams from the year before competing, strengthened by the other SA unions for super rugby.
11 May 2012, 11:32 am
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-109:
Well, you can create a strong franchise out of nothing, based in De Aar, if you pump R100 million into them and buy all the best players, so your argument is a bit absurd.
Of course any franchise needs money to be successful. But what we argue about is what makes a franchise deserving of getting this money?
I say it should be the top 5 unions in the country that go through to Super Rugby.
You say that it should be the top 4, plus the Easten Cape, for some symbolic reason that I don’t agree with.
But then, this is a neverending debate, isn’t it.
11 May 2012, 11:33 am
Breaks my heart.
11 May 2012, 11:37 am
All the half decent Lions players will either go overseas or to other unions Mitchell and Spencer will also leave. The Kings will probably snap up most of them. The Lions wont be able to sign any players without Super rugby status unless they have mega bucks(which they dont have). So come relegation time the Lions will probably lose to the Kings. And so the fall of a once reputable union begins.
11 May 2012, 11:44 am
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-112: It’s the biggest black rugby player base, remember. That’s why the deserve it and not, say, De Aar or Namibia or Limpopo. 200 000 registered and rearing to go, held back only by the fact that the racists don’t want cheeky to play with them. I’m sure this about to be unleashed hotbed of Xhosa rugby awesomeness will shut the likes of me and you up for good. Can’t wait.
11 May 2012, 11:47 am
@Paws(Paws)-111: Simply put, if one takes away Newscorp money from the Lions and its given to the Kings for 5 years in a row, what will be the effect?
11 May 2012, 11:52 am
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-112: What makes the current Top 5 unions the current Top 5, its surely not better administrators and if its not, its the gravy train money they get from Murdoch via Super Rugby, this is the money that filters through to the union and boom!!!, you have the Top 5 unions.
So, you have practically agreed with me without even knowing it. Get sharp Tac, get sharp, we know this game.
11 May 2012, 11:52 am
It is really immaterial what the Lions record is in super rugby this year, last year or even the last 10 or 15 years.
The facts of the matter are that SA has 5 spots at the super rugby table, which need to be filled by the 5 strongest SA teams.
Does anyone truly believes in their hearts and heads that the kings (made up of 3 teams that play in the B division of the CC) are (or will be) better and stronger than the current 5 franchises representing SA?
They are going to be doing the region, there players and fans an injustice by having the kings partake in super rugby. They are being set up to fail by greed.
This problem could have been sorted long ago.
How difficult would it have been to include the kings (as they would be as a super franchise with the 3 cc teams combined) into the A-division of the CC and prepare them for 2-3 years, access their progress, and then make a call on their readiness for super rugby.
But greed, corruption and plain stupidity unfortunately like too much in our current SA society spoils the day.
11 May 2012, 11:53 am
@Falken(Falken)-114: Spot on!!!
11 May 2012, 11:54 am
@>^..^< katman(katman)-115: Yes yes yes!!!! I’m already picturing a mighty 15-man army, every one of them making Pierre Spies look like a gangly teenager, all marching in perfect unison like the hammers in Pink Floyd’s The Wall, crushing all who dare to stand before them like bugs…..
11 May 2012, 11:56 am
@Paws(Paws)-118: In my heart, in my head, in truth, in mathematical reality, YES, I do believe that the Kings will be better than the Lions, especially taking into account brains and administrative abilities of both teams.
11 May 2012, 11:56 am
I also feel that Swaziland should be granted automatic entry into the next two World Cups (probably at Portugal or Namibia’s expense, but you can’t make an omelet without breaking a few eggs, can you) because if they were given the same sort of money as, say, England, they’d undoubtedly be fukkenawesome.
11 May 2012, 12:00 pm
Super 15 is stuffing up SA rugby.
Whether the Cheetahs, Lions, Bulls, Stormers or Sharks fell out of S15, the results for that union will be devastating. I know they are called franchises but in reality they are the unions and then maybe a couple of outsiders. Lets face the truth of the matter.
This country can field 6 unions if we limit top-flight rugby to 6 unions only. Unfortunately we have the Currie Cup which is a mess and is really a waste of time now. SANZAR have destroyed SA domestic rugby competitions and SARU have let it happen.
If there is an agreement that SARU have to abide by then they should pull out the financial card, since we subsidise Aus and NZ and get the agreement changed to suit us.
I’ve said it earlier. WE cannot have S15 and Currie Cup anymore, we can only have one. There simply are not enough weekends in the year to accommodate both. SARU need to cut one competition adrift. I would rather see S15 go so we can set up 6 highly competitive unions and then come back in when we are allowed 6 teams. Or we change the S15 to a Heineken Cup format of small pools.
Certainly if I were ABSA I’d want my money back from the Currie Cup. There is so little value left in it.
The current set-up is an unholy mess and has to be fixed. SARU need to grow some nuts. We need someone is not out to make friends to run the show for a few years – perhaps we need some ugly Louis Luyt type tough love?
11 May 2012, 12:01 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-122: You would be smart ,funny and true if Swaziland had a history of bleeding players to England and the likes, but that doesn’t exist now, does it?
11 May 2012, 12:05 pm
@Paws(Paws)-104: My point exactly, as I mentioned on this site a few days ago. Don’t recall exact details but do recall an amount of R400 000 changing hands for giving the hosting rights to the Sharks…but with regards to the TV rights side of things though I cannot remember but seem to think it was a “permanent deal”.
Perhaps somebody out there can recall further.
11 May 2012, 12:09 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-124: EITA daar! ugqibele nini emakhaya?
11 May 2012, 12:12 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-121:
Don’t take the pain and disappointment to personal when they lose game after game, week-end after week-end, year after year … after all as a Lions fan I am use to this frustration.
You think it was just plain fluke and money that made the Lions a strong union the last 100 years?
You need Chelsea or Man City type of money to buy almost instant or short time success, and super rugby ain’t gone give the kings that king of money and buying power.
11 May 2012, 12:30 pm
@Paws(Paws)-118:
5 franchise slots don’t need to be filled by the 5 strongest unions.
It needs to be filled by the best 110 players though.
The New Zealand model is a superb example of what can be achieved if provincialism plays second fiddle to the greater national cause.
11 May 2012, 12:34 pm
# 113 Rooooooooaaaaaar….meeeooouuuuuu1!
11 May 2012, 12:44 pm
@willievz(willievz)-128:
If I’m not mistaken they still have stong unions as there core around which the team is built?
Auckland Blues
Cantebury Crusaders
Otago Highlanders
? Hurricanes
? Chiefs
It is easier to slot players into a team than building up teams from scratch .. and anyway, most of the top 110 players are at the stronger unions anyway.
With the current comp, one can also not blame anyone to not share player resorces, you need dept in this new version because there is just to much rugby.
11 May 2012, 13:10 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-107: Agreed, but why even bother with calling WP the Stormers etc.
11 May 2012, 13:17 pm
@zoo cleaner(zoo cleaner)-123: The only way to save the Currie Cup is for it to double as the play-off stages for a shortened Super Rugby competition where only the best teams participate. This would mean that the Currie Cup will have to be played before Super Rugby. Unfortunately, I think the changes of selling such an idea too the money-grabbing fcuknuts of SANZAR is a long shot.
11 May 2012, 13:47 pm
Indeed, a sad day in Hell.
I do hope the Lions can contest this decision through the Courts.
The incompetence of the SARU is truely unbelievable.
I have nothing against the Kings………………………………………….But why could these events not have put on hold until 2015, when the NewsCorp “Deal” was renegotiated.
11 May 2012, 13:47 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-126: Bendidlule eGcuwa on my way to kuGatyana last year ngoDecember
11 May 2012, 13:53 pm
@Paws(Paws)-127: What you lot don’t get is that EP rugby didn’t deteriorate to what it became because of lack of player talent. EP became runnish because of the type of poor management as epitomized by the current Lions set up, So, ceterus paribus, in 2022, the Lions will be exactly where EP found themselves for the last decade.
11 May 2012, 14:09 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-135:
Just to correct you, not the current set up, the few too many before …
I can honestly say that in my 40 years or so of existence that the EC was never really a strong rugby region .. they had an occasion or two to shine in the sun, some good teams in the 80’s, but since then they have sucked.
This is a politically driven, and the greed of the gravy train is right there along with it.
There are very few, if any rugby reasons.
One of the reasons given is the development of ‘black’ rugby player .. Let’s see if that happens, I doubt it.
This strangely reminds me allot about the current e-toll saga
11 May 2012, 14:23 pm
@Paws(Paws)-136: A question, what is the case for the Lions, we have heard all the reasons pro/anti Kings, how about the Lions, what’s their case?
11 May 2012, 14:24 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-112: Hayibo….what is this word you use ‘deserving’ ? Is there a Pedi word for that ?
In South Africa….’we demand’….eeeee…not ‘we deserve’…….get out you bloody agent….
11 May 2012, 14:26 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-137: I’ll give you one.
The Lions – as pathetic as they are – won the Currie Cup. How did EP do in the Currie Cup ?
I will give you another one. The Lions would thrash ten different shades of **** into the Kings if they played a relegation match right now.
And I will give you one last one. The Lions actually qualify or ‘deserve’ to play Currie Cup. This is how it works in most world structures, except African ones. You work your way up through the system and get to the top because you deserve it. You wanna know why the Kings dont play Currie Cup ? Because they cant even make the final of the Vodacom Cup…..hawa…eish…got it now ?
11 May 2012, 14:29 pm
If I were the Lions – I wouldn’t just lie down and take this. There must be some kind of legal recourse for them. Surely contracts have been signed etc. ? Come Lions….fight this….
11 May 2012, 14:29 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-137: Simple: there are 5 SA teams in the competition, and they are among the top 5 (regardless of how poorly they’re doing in the Super15).
Can the Kings say that? Because that’s all it should be about.
11 May 2012, 14:32 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-141: Exactly – but the reason your argument is not connecting with u’Transformation and u’Xhosa kid is because that is not how it works in their minds.
The idea of progression via merit does not twig for them.
The rest of us all get it. Don’t worry.
11 May 2012, 14:35 pm
@Paws(Paws)-136: Every cloud has a silver lining though. You know, all of us have a primal drive to watch a gladiator fight between a villain and a much stronger opponent.
It will be fun – great fun actually to watch the Kings get mauled next season. And I want to see at least 10 ethnic players from the Eastern Cape region in the team.
11 May 2012, 14:37 pm
@Dusky(Dusky)-139: Simply, The Lions won the Currie Cup because they received Murdoch’s money along with WP/Bulls and Sharks and the later group had its ” Murdoch money” (read here players) busy with the Springboks RWC campaign. As I did say last year to ridicule, CC shouldn’t be played in RWC year, as its a distortion of reality and history.
Would the Lions thrash ten different shades of ****** into the Kings once you give the Kings Murdoch’s money for 10 years and give the Lions nothing for the same period?, better yet, lets try it out and see what will happen, lets start in 2013 and have this relegation/promotion game in 2024.
“Qualify”, “Deserve”, ” How it works in most structures, except African ones”, wow!! rational genious, where do you come from, Did Natal/Sharks “qualify”, “deserve” or better yet, who did Natal beat to “qualify” to play the Currie Cup?
11 May 2012, 14:39 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-141: Can the Lions say the same without the gravy train Newscorp money?
11 May 2012, 14:40 pm
So glad to see the hopeless Lions getting booted………………. The biggest embarrassment to super rugby i have ever encountered!!!!!!!!!!!!!
11 May 2012, 14:40 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-145: Nice try. They’ve been among the top 5 long before News Corp was even a twinkle in the Murdoch eye. Once again, can the Kings say that?
11 May 2012, 14:41 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-144: But – whichever method was used – that is the status quo now isn’t it ? As Tactitus has tried to explain to you several times, that argument holds absolutely no water – except in your own head. I am not going to bother trying to explain to you why.
Actually, Natal beat Northern Free State in 1989 to qualify to play Currie Cup in 1990 – which they won. I get that you don’t get this. As I said, the idea of merit progression is lost on you. South Africa will pay for that eventually unfortunately.
11 May 2012, 14:41 pm
@Dusky(Dusky)-139: Well said, Sir…(or madam!)
11 May 2012, 14:41 pm
@Dusky(Dusky)-142: What is merit in this instance, the fact that I’m empowering you with substantive knowledge so that you can argue your point intelligently is merit, ironic, the only person involved here is the one who chose not to use emotion but facts and reason.
11 May 2012, 14:43 pm
@Dusky(Dusky)-142:
Why couldn’t the SARU just wait,
until the time was right.
Is that too simple.
This decision……………………I imagine, will be devastating for the Lions.
And could be destructive for the Kings as well.
11 May 2012, 14:43 pm
@Paws(Paws)-130: True, but I get the feeling there is no provincialist mentality that dominates their structures.
11 May 2012, 14:44 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-147: The Kings were not in existence then nor the Brumbies, Blues, Hurricanes, Crusaders, Reds etc etc get my drift…
11 May 2012, 14:45 pm
@TooMuchRugby(TooMuchRugby)-132:
Yip, they’ll go for the cheque first, second and third. Somewhere past 107852nd they will be the rugby players welfare and the fans. At infinity is refereeing standards…
Only way would be for ABSA to realize how little value the Currie Cup is and pull the plug.
Would obviously be sad to see it go, but this simply cannot go on. Anybody who says otherwise is simply delusional.
Besides, how cheated are we as supporters getting now? The team with the least injuries is going to win this competition, and that will carry into the 4N. Our stars are getting smashed into the ground and there is simply not enough time for them to get over injuries.
If SANZAR had a functioning brain they’d check out how successful NFL is and model themselves on that. Quality rules, not quantity – the Superbowl finalists play 19 games in the entire season – and how much money do those broadcasting rights get?
Those rights are so valuable because the fans are sooooooooo hungry after the off-season the stadiums are packed every game and every TV is manned.
Here it doesn’t matter if you miss a game because there’s almost one every weekend. Nowadays I actually barely watch, especially the Aussie derbies, how short-changed are the Aussies fans these days?
Heck, if there were only 8 or 10 home games a year every stadium would be packed, even the Lions! If the Lions got themselves off the floor they could pack out FNB, how’s that for revenue? It costs a fortune to open a stadium for a match, rather have fewer and earn more. Players last longer and earn for longer and we the fans get more and more excited and have more and more fun.
Must be tough being in SANZAR and wonder through life with no brain.
Currie Cup is dead. SANZAR have killed domestic rugby in SA and SARU have negligently allowed this to happen. Surely they are in breach of their fiduciary duties to the domestic game?
C’mon KEO, grow some nuts and ask Jurie some tough questions. Enough of these sweetheart interviews.
11 May 2012, 14:46 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-150: Ok – merit.
Lets try make this simple. If you interview two candidates for a job. Candidate A has a Masters degree in the appropriate field, and 12 years experience. During those 12 years, this candidate has successfully established and run project teams, bringing tangible profit to the organization they work for in the order of several hundred million US dollars.
Candidate B. Candidate B has a Masters degree as well. From a slightly different university. 2 years experience, and has never been the lead on any big projects but has a so-so type record of working within a project team.
All the other issues you would cover in an interview are fine for both candidates. Which candidate do you hire ?
11 May 2012, 14:48 pm
@Dusky(Dusky)-148: So, I show you up as dumb hypocrite, but we must just move right along, as the “status quo” is the “status quo”??, hypocrite, now that “status quo” benefits your prejudicial ssss, its ok?, well, why don’t we let the corrupt, looting ANC bigwits continue with “status quo”??
11 May 2012, 14:49 pm
@cane(cane)-151: The structure I am most disappointed in is SANZAR. I cannot believe the New Zealand and Australian stakeholders were lulled into this.
(Although I can tell you, that the international business community has little or no comprehension of the way affirmative policy is used in South Africa. To them it sounds ludicrous.)
Do they realize that this devalues the competition ? Oh well, each South African team will have two easy wins now. Free points for the other SA franchises has just increased by 10. We will hear more about this once our Kiwi and Australian counterparts wake up to what they have agreed to.
11 May 2012, 14:50 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-156: Can you answer my question from 155, instead of behaving like the ANC and responding like you did ?
11 May 2012, 14:52 pm
Fortunately the Lions has set such mediocre standards in the past, The KINGS only have to finish second last on the log to warrant their place in super rugby!!!
11 May 2012, 14:53 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-144:
How did the lions get into that grand position to get the money you are so stuck and obsessed on?
Easy, they have always been one of the strong unions and because of there playing ability got in positions to make / maintain that stream of revenue. In short they worked to get there, and have to work harder to stay there.
Why the Lions .. as said before by many, no matter how bad they are in S15, they are still in the top 5, whether it is because of money or no money.
If the kings want to get there they can climb the ladder of success, the higher they go the more money they will get … a good start will actually be for one of their 3 teams who make them up win the B section of the CC and actually get and participate in the A section. But wait, has that also not already been given to them on a silver platter for next year’s CC at the expense of the Pumas and another team?
And while you are on about money … are you sure the kings don’t have money .. what is Solomans and the two Watsons making in their pockets there each year?
11 May 2012, 14:55 pm
@Getafix(phil72)-159: From a Super rugby perspective (if we discount the lower structures like the Currie Cup) – you are right. The Kings don’t really have to do much to merit their inclusion.
I cant wait to watch the spectacle though. I can imagine a rampant Crusaders side at Canterbury vs. the Kings that lost to the Pumas dude….the Witbank Pumas….haaaaaaaa ha ha ha….I am going to enjoy the slaughter.
Actually, if I played for the Kings now – I would get the hell out ! I wouldn’t want to be part of that circus.
11 May 2012, 14:55 pm
@Dusky(Dusky)-155: using the the facts you have given and holding all other variables constant, ceterus paribus, Candidate A gets the nod.
However, if I’m trying to venture into new, younger, vibrant, ethnic, religious etc etc markets or any other variable that you failed to include, the outcome might be Candidate B. On merit as well, so what is merit I ask again.
11 May 2012, 14:56 pm
How can anybody support the Lions cause and then the proclaim how intelligent they are and how much merit there is in their decision????????????????
11 May 2012, 14:57 pm
Did not realize so many dummies on this blog……………….
11 May 2012, 14:57 pm
@Paws(Paws)-160: Xhosa kid has been asked a few uncomfortable questions, so he has stopped quoting latin, using big words etc. and reverted to the classic lash back approach. Unfortunately, this blog is not Luthuli house and there are no security guards to usher those asking the difficult questions out the room.
11 May 2012, 14:58 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-162: Candidate A was the young, black candidate. You see – you are blinded by prejudice too. So dont come on here and call others hypocrites.
11 May 2012, 14:58 pm
@Getafix(phil72)-163: Its baffles brains!!, there is simply no logic besides vested prejudice or interest.
11 May 2012, 15:00 pm
@Dusky(Dusky)-165: Spoke tooooo soooon, your first mistake is to take me for granted, my education, my background and more importantly my rational self and IQ, not that I’m bothered, just saying.
11 May 2012, 15:01 pm
@Dusky(Dusky)-157:
All Parties (SA, OZ, NZ and Newscorp) signed off on the current Agreement and Term.
This debacle rests squarely on the shoulders of the SARU.
If this decision was forced upon them from HIGHER UP the food chain. Then they should have resigned on mass.
11 May 2012, 15:02 pm
The Lions will be fine might lose a few players but will be cash flush at the end of the season. If the Lions really wanted to they could sell ELlispark take the money and rebuild from FNB stadium.
The cost of the renovations alone was 200 Million. The thing is if there was a buyer,then I would say sell it. I think its value is about 880 million.
I am positive Xhosanostra is at play in this deal, but this is going to be a hard pill to swallow but SARU will also be choking.
11 May 2012, 15:03 pm
@Dusky(Dusky)-166: Blinded by race??, how do you deduce that, I thought your candidate’s race was irrelevant.
11 May 2012, 15:05 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-153: Don’t you worry – I get your drift. It’s hard to miss.
11 May 2012, 15:05 pm
Thank the maker that the team finishing last will not be the Sharks
11 May 2012, 15:08 pm
There is absolutely no rational to argue for the existence of the Lions, only vested interest/prejudice would make any person argue for the Lions, I repeat.
11 May 2012, 15:09 pm
e-toll
e(p) – kings
same strange feeling of getting screwed, and by many of the same players.
11 May 2012, 15:12 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-174: The Lions have no reason for existence, but the Kings Must Have It. I guess it’s that bloody dynamic again. For some reason I just don’t get it. Don’t feel bad though – I don’t get polygamy either.
11 May 2012, 15:12 pm
The comp rules say the best players and the best teams from each country must take part.
Eish!!!
How long before the Aussie and NZ teams question what the kings are doing there? 10 points for the other SA teams, only 5 points for them, and two of those won’t get a chance and miss out completely.
11 May 2012, 15:15 pm
@Getafix(phil72)-163:
Well, the Lions occupy the seat of the largest city in the country with the largest stadia available, Ellis Park, FNB and Orlando. It is the team which has a shocking history since the departure of Louis Luyt (may have been disagreeable but he must have done something right).
Instead of fixing the Lions and getting them back on their feet and exploiting the country’s largest market, SARU are going to cast them out and replace them with the Kings, with one small stadium and a minor paying public – don’t tell me the fans are going to pay S15 ticket prices plus the cost of the trip from Queenstown for a weekend? In general the fans just don’t have the money.
So we’ll see the Kings playing to an empty stadium by the end of the first quarter of S15 2013 when they’ve taken their first couple of thrashes. SARU have neglected the region for so long many PE locals have adopted other provinces, like the Sharks, Stormers and Free State. Getting them to “love local” is only going to come off the back of wins, and the Kings aren’t going to be doing that soon. The Lions have been abominable, but the Kings I feel are going to re-write that script.
In essence the Kings have to start from scratch with a skeptical local public, let alone country-wide.
The Lions could be rescued and become one of the biggest money-makers for SARU and Ellis Park could return to the days it was a big money-spinner.
Now, the biggest stadium in the country’s rugby is going to go empty in preference for the smallest, with the least fans. A little bit of success started to bring the Lions fans back and the terraces of Ellis Park were pretty full the first couple of games this year.
Whilst in principle I believe the Kings should be developed and brought up to speed so we have 6 Unions and no others for top-flight rugby, I don’t believe this decision has been thought through and the damage it will do will outweigh the supposed benefits.
It is clearly a political decision, which is why it is a mess. If I were the Lions I’d see if I could sue SARU for lost earnings until the end of the current S15 format.
11 May 2012, 15:20 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-144:
Qualified in 1989 and beat NTVL in the final in 1990.
Merit qualification enough for you?
And stop trying to prove that you’re some sort of economist when in actual fact you’re probably sitting in the back office or admin dept of some run of the mill finance house.
You aint kidding anyone.
11 May 2012, 15:23 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-174:
I repeat:
They are one of the top 5 rugby playing unions in SA
They are better at playing rugby than the Kings
What more is relevant?
I can’t draw pictures to make that more clear ….
11 May 2012, 15:26 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-174:
There is a very very simple rationale for the Lions debate.
They won a Currie Cup last year against all odds by beating a full strength WP and Sharks side in the Final whilst the Kings couldnt even beat the Boland Cavaliers in their division final.
As a sharks supporter i welcome the kings inclusion because it means a given 10 points and teh Sharks points difference will blow out as well.
As a rugby supporter in SA, I think its abysmal how this whole thing has been handled.
11 May 2012, 15:27 pm
Whatever the different arguments for or against the Lions or Kings are…
the fact of the matter is that the Lions have been given chance after chance after chance after chance… and now pro Lions supporters demands another chance and another and another…
it is time for change that’s all…
only after the Kings have been given chance after chance after chance… will we be able to judge between the 2…
there, I’ve given you learned men an intelligent argument…
11 May 2012, 15:28 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-176: Lions existence in Super Rugby is to be ashamed off, However the Kings haven’t yet embarrassed themselves yet, so, simply put, you guys already have the ugly baby, whereas the Kings are pregnant.
11 May 2012, 15:30 pm
@John Galt(John Galt)-181: Winning the Currie Cup is a pretty solid point…
In that case the Stormers should be relegated…. they haven’t won the Currie Cup in a long time…
11 May 2012, 15:31 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-183: you’ve relayed the point more intelligently than I ever could have…
11 May 2012, 15:32 pm
@John Galt(John Galt)-179: Ha ha!!, funny, Chmapions Banana Boys won a promotion game!!!, LMFPO!!!!!!!
11 May 2012, 15:33 pm
@theOracle(theOracle)-182: No, the Lions weren’t “given” chance after chance. They weren’t “given” anything. They have been amongst the top 5 unions for the entire Super Rugby history. It’s only the Kings who demand to be “given” a chance. If you can’t even win the lower division CC, or the Vodacom Cup, you surely have no claim to SuperRugby.
11 May 2012, 15:36 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-186:
I love it when you arrive on this blog.
Every time you come here you make an arsehole of yourself through lack of knowledge on a subject ( the Moses Mabida, Cape Town stadium debate) and an inability to hold your emotions intact to complete your argument.
Too easy.
11 May 2012, 15:36 pm
talk about entitlement, Lions supporter b(itching that the deserve to play in Super Rugby indefinitely hehehe.
Loffie: Spears fiasco never rattled us
17 Nov 2006
Lions coach Eugene Elloff says the Spears saga had no bearing on their preparation for the Vodacom Super 14.
The Southern Cape franchise were involved in a protracted battle with Saru and SA Rugby (Saru’s commercial arm) over their participation in the regional tournament, until they abandoned their legal action yesterday.
The Lions were the franchise standing to lose out had the Spears been successful and, as the lowest placed South African team, would have been relegated from tournament.
While Elloff conceded that relegation had been a reality that he had to deal with daily, he said it never affected his team’s preparation.
“We were never burdened by the whole Spears saga,” Eloff told keo.co.za. “While everything was going on around us we went ahead with our preparation as usual and this debacle didn’t affect my team in the slightest.
“I am a rugby coach not a politician and my players focus on their games and not the political sideshows,” he added.
Asked what the consequences of a Spears victory would have meant for the Johannesburg-based franchise, Eloff was adamant that they would have taken it on the chin.
“At the moment this team is so motivated as a result of the way they finished off the Currie Cup that it wouldn’t have rocked the boat at all.
“We would have re-focussed our attention on preparing for next year’s Currie Cup and while it would be stupid to think that they [the players] would not have been disappointed, everyone here knows we are working towards a goal of being the best South African team.”
Eloff was reluctant to comment on what he thought of how the Spears had conducted themselves throughout the saga and added that he doubted his players would’ve been open to any player-sharing proposal from the Spears.
The Lions have routinely delivered poor performances in Super Rugby, but Eloff insisted that the Spears decision would not place them under any further pressure to prove that they could compete with the best teams in the southern hemisphere.
“We don’t have to justify anything to anyone,” he snapped. “We will go out and play our game and try to wave the flag for South Africa.”
6 years later, they still don’t think they need to “justify” anything to anyone. “we are one of the big 5 and we deserve it”
11 May 2012, 15:37 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-183: Neither have the Griffons or the Mozambique Supercrocodiles or the Kgalagadi Dustdevils. Chop.
11 May 2012, 15:40 pm
@theOracle(theOracle)-184:
Terrible logic. But nice try.
Its about SA rugby being competitive.
If you play against the best week in and week out, your only going to improve.
Play against the dregs and you’re bound to lose your edge.
11 May 2012, 15:45 pm
@John Galt(John Galt)-191: have australia become less competitive since the introduction of the Force and the Rebels?
11 May 2012, 15:48 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-189:
eish, how many times you going post that piece?
i think i know it verbatim now.
11 May 2012, 15:51 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-192:
Your argument assumes that the Rebels and the Force are in the same league, competitively, as the Kings.
Which they are not.
Every week, any Ausie side has a real chance of beating another Ausie side ie Force beating the Tahs etc.
Very different with the Kings in the SA conference.
11 May 2012, 15:53 pm
@charo(charo)-193: as many times as i want 8)
11 May 2012, 15:53 pm
This is not a promotion/relegation issue at all. The Queens will be playing in 2014, regardless.
In lew of this, the only reasonable solution would be for amalgamate the Bulls and Lions, call them the Bullion, let them play in SoWeTo and give Mitch a one way plane ticket.
11 May 2012, 15:54 pm
@Paws(Paws)-177:
It says nothing about the best teams, only the top players, as the S15 sides are regional franchises that don’t exist outside the S15. (not even in Oz).
So how do ensure the franchises have the top players? They sign them for their main union. Just have a look at the Bulls. Olivier is the only home grown backline player and Potgieter, Flip and Juandre are also recent signings.
This is no criticism of the Bulls, but of some of the bloggers here who believe that the provincial unions performances compared to the Kings unions and franchise are on an equal playing field.
Until the Kings play S15, they will never be able to attract or retain top players or youngsters to the region.
11 May 2012, 15:56 pm
@John Galt(John Galt)-194: what was the score in the Rebels’ first ever super rugby game against the Waratahs?
i’ll help you.
it was 46 – 0
so much for them being competitive…have australia stopped being competitive with the introduction of those two – clearly not so superior – teams?
11 May 2012, 15:58 pm
@John Galt(John Galt)-188: The only person who would won his case if we were all presenting to an unbiased judge, would be me, all your sentimental bullshyyt would be out the window, but I’m not arrssed either, Lions will be OUT!!! and the Kings will be IN, now chew on that!!!
It really grates you that you have underachieved so much at your age?
11 May 2012, 16:02 pm
@David(David)-197: HEAR HEAR
11 May 2012, 16:02 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-190: Kgalagadi DustDevils!!!!, LOL!!, at least you still haven’t lost your sense of humour.
11 May 2012, 16:08 pm
Transformation if you are not Vrede,are you one of the Watsons or are you actually Alan Solomons?????
I still think you are Vrede,you are here all the time,especially on his treads,and you also pronounce it as Jew Lie.
11 May 2012, 16:11 pm
Dear All
I didn’t come here to have you guys change your entrenched view nor did I expect you to agree and say I’m right. The point of today’s exercise was to arm you with information, so that the next time you are at a braai and your mate is going bananas about the Kings inclusion, you would agree with him, ( you don’t want to embarrass your buddy), but your sub-conscience knows the truth and it will chow you that you know the truth, that was there point. Its a mind thing.
Now, let me check me my bank account, I hope Cheeky has deposited my cheque.
11 May 2012, 16:16 pm
Thanks for going.
11 May 2012, 16:18 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-189:
Honest question:
Are you Ryan Vrede?
11 May 2012, 16:23 pm
@zoo cleaner(zoo cleaner)-178:
Zoo boy
Go and look and your stats for past 10 years!!!
The Lions is by far on all aspects: That would be Games Lost, Points Conceded, Crowd attendance, Tries against, Tries for, Points scored, Games won etc….. Last on the stats… now clever one!!!! please explain to why you deserve to play super rugby They have almost conceded 2000 unanswered point in the past decade!!!! Surely one of the criteria for playing super rugby is that you can not be **** forever!!!!!
The Kings with a super franchise budget will never be that ****..Even the useless Rebels have overtaken you in their second season… Wake the f… up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
11 May 2012, 16:26 pm
@mad eye(mad eye)-201: why are you so interested in who i am? just keep posting you mal thoughts and quit worrying about me
11 May 2012, 16:30 pm
@willievz(willievz)-204: no! hahahaha
11 May 2012, 16:30 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-202:
You do realise you are now talking in the past tense, the K…. are included the Lions are out, so as a Lions fan I do not need to Justify anything it will be Keo and his band of brothers who will have to justify why the Kings should stay ….isn’t life grand and the wheel turns.
11 May 2012, 16:31 pm
Transformation you are in the words of the prophet Julius,a bloody agent.
You have an inside track here and a very suspect agenda.
Come out in the open,come out of the closet,it is 2012.
11 May 2012, 16:34 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-207:
Oooo now you’re in for it.
11 May 2012, 16:36 pm
EKS N MOERSE GROOT WP FAN ,VOEL MA HARTSEER VI DI LIONS ,CURRIE CUP CHAMPS
WOW EN NOU MOET HULLE UIT DIE SP15 ,AS GEVOLG VAN POLITIEK OF HOE DAN NOU
,MA WAT LEKKE IS VAN DIE KAK KINGS IS AL DIE SPANNE VOLGENDE JAAR GAAN 5
POINTERS KRY ,AL PUNTE WAT HULLE GAAN KRY IS VI HULLE BYE,EN WA GAAN HULLE
SPELERS KRY WAT VIR HULLE WIL SPEEL ,LIONS OUENS NOOIT,MEESTE LIONS OUENS
SAL,WP,BULLS,SHARKS ,CHEETAHS TOE GAAN OF OORSEE,SAL SEKE CHICKY WATSON EN
AROGANTE LAAITIE WEES ,HULLE KAN NIE EENS DIE PUMAS WEN NIE WOW LMGA ,SIES
SA RUGBY LIONS BESTAAN AL JARE EN NOU MOET HULLE UIT ,WYS JOU NET DIS N
POLITIEKE KWESIE AND F…. OFF ZOO BOY .GO LIONS
11 May 2012, 16:37 pm
@Dawn(Dawn)-210:
kaan jy imagine, me being ryan vrede…
funniest thing i’ve heard all day!
11 May 2012, 16:40 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-212:
Indeed!
11 May 2012, 16:41 pm
@mad eye(mad eye)-209: what is YOUR agenda if you reckon mine is “suspect”?
11 May 2012, 16:45 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-198:
So you quote 1 game to prove your point?
Ey, I just dont know anymore.
To even think about comparing the quality of the Force and the Rebels to that of what the Kings will no doubt dish up just shows everyone here how illogical you become when talking about the Kings.
11 May 2012, 16:56 pm
@John Galt(John Galt)-215: how many concessions did the ARU make to get the Rebels to be “competitive”? they were allowed an indiscrminate number of internationals for one. the point is, if none of those concessions were made the rebels would be even worse but john o’neill – being the business man that he is – actually wanted to develop the game, revenue base in australia instead of ENTRENCHING non-performing franchises who reckon themselves as the “big boys”
now please answer my initial question
11 May 2012, 17:02 pm
@John Galt(John Galt)-215:
The first thing the Force did was to recruit top players from the other Franchises, whilst the Rebels were also allowed to sign marquee international players. The ARU realised that you can’t create a new Franchise team from scratch without allowing them to sign top players from the existing franchises.
11 May 2012, 17:09 pm
@COBRA(COBRA)-211:
Hierdie is n engelse blog……. Probeer….. dit is nie so moeilik nie? Jou maatjies in Aus en NZ weet nie wat Jy se nie.
You probably don’t understand, but the Kings as they will be playing super rugby has not played a game yet. We can only judge them next season. Border, SWD and EP will make up the Kings + the 15 odd players that will be recruited because of the new budget. Just like the Force and the Rebels. They will never be as horrible as the LIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
11 May 2012, 17:10 pm
@David(David)-217: most unions wont just release contracted players, this is a again a problem that solutions for should have been sought a few years agfo , and then also the buying of new players to gel them into a unit
I can speak for others but for me the problem is not if or not the KIngs should be in Super rugby,
the question is why is there not proper planner etc
David surely it could have been posible to extend the teams in the CC and bring the kings in as a unit so they could get used to the stronger rugby setup etc
Even some of the present players in the Kings team are really glood players, just they used to playing lower strengths and it shows in their play, they should form the basis of this team no matter if he is from SWD, PE , Border etc and play them as a unit in the CC, atleast there they could grow.
Instead they have become weaker as we have seen the past few weekends
11 May 2012, 17:14 pm
@Getafix(phil72)-218: Sorry but you yourself assume they will be OK or Good enough,
Surely the best way forward is as SARU have now said re the play off matches
And if the Kings lose then hell man they shoul wake up and prepare, SARU should assist and hell yes even the GOvt can give a hand,
But atleast dont put an even weaker team to get slaughtered even worse then the Lions already are
There are ways, I have in my own stupid way presented one solution, but there are surely many more
11 May 2012, 17:24 pm
@sharks_lover(sharks_lover)-219:
As the current S15 franchise contracts expire at the end of the year it’ll be interesting to see how the unions handle the renewal of Franchise contracts.
I agree with your sentiments. Unfortunately, it’s now too late to undo the SARU cockups. The EC, Border and SWD also bear a lot of responsibilty for the situation, so apportioning blame is pointless at this point IMO.
All Im doing is to try and cut through a lot of the emotional arguments against the inclusion of an EC franchise.
You’re spot on about the existing contracts, although some will say it’s never stopped the Sharks.
11 May 2012, 17:27 pm
@David(David)-221: ala JF that was still with the Lions??
Na boet everyday you okes tell us about how its only the Sharks that buy?? ya well no fine
11 May 2012, 17:36 pm
@sharks_lover(sharks_lover)-220:
Not even going to try and explain the process again…. Obviously you not capable of understanding that the Kings will only be a force when they have the budget…..Just like the Lions will not be a force without the budget… VERSTAAN? (ok LIONS not a force with the budget…)
11 May 2012, 17:39 pm
Nobody will ever be as RUBBISH as the LIONS in Super Rugby again!!!!!!!!!!!!!
11 May 2012, 17:42 pm
Lions best Placing on the log for past 11 Years is 3RD LAST!!!!!!!!!!!! The have basically monopolized the last place position!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Get on with it!!!!!!!!!!!! Not capable of playing SUPER RUGBY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They have to leave!!!!!! Whatever replaces them, can not be as bad!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is not possible!!!!!!!!!!!!!
11 May 2012, 17:43 pm
@sharks_lover(sharks_lover)-222:
C’mon, in a previous post I used the Bulls as the example of buying instead of building.
11 May 2012, 17:46 pm
@Getafix(phil72)-223: oh NOw i dont understand?? they have the budget ffs, they have said so, if you had half a brain you would have understood what i said. the problem is not even about money, ITS ABOUT LACK OF PLANNING EVEN WITH ITS PRESENT GROUP OF PLAYERS
That is not only from the unions point of view, but mostly SARU, now i cant help the fact that you cant read or understand,
11 May 2012, 17:47 pm
@David(David)-226:
David , yes you used the Sharks and the Bulls, but never your beloved Stormers 
anyhows no biggy mate
11 May 2012, 17:49 pm
@sharks_lover(sharks_lover)-227:
If you don’t understand? No point arguing!!!!!!!!!!!!!
11 May 2012, 17:53 pm
Keep supporting loosing teams with ZERO Hope…. At least SARU has finally realized(took them long enough) that there is no hope for the LIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
11 May 2012, 17:55 pm
@sharks_lover(sharks_lover)-227:
Do you honestly not get it that SUPER RUGBY inclusion will more than double their budget?
11 May 2012, 17:56 pm
To many DUMMIES tonight, will go and enjoy my braai!
11 May 2012, 18:17 pm
Getafix.
Get a fix!
11 May 2012, 20:28 pm
half wits on this site. As far as the eye can see.
Hardly a shred of an idea except that what die groot baas SARFU and the local media tells you. There is not a single justifiable reason to take rugby away from the most densly populated cosmopolitan area of SA.
Whether the Lions are currentlky Kak or the impoverished; corrupt dominance of the backwater ANC dominated Eastern cape needs investing in is irelevant. SA needs 6 teams due to it’s relative population size and volume of subscription payers and spectators. Allowing Sanzar to efuse this is a joke,
In the 1st place, the early date of the kIngs inclusion was a result of aggressive political despotisim by the ANC and other conected gravey trainers. To start with, The kings inclussion should only have been set at the date of the end of this current contractual format. They are in NO shape to compete next year or the next.
All most seem to do is consider the 2 options of relegation/CATs combination offered by the BIG BOYS AT sarfu AND THE BIG HITTERS IN THE anc. Pushing for the logical 6 SA sides is beyond the Charlies flying off to SANZAR meetings now and again to chew the cudd with the SANZAR guardians of Ahzie self interest.
Those options presented are by no means the way to solve the Eastern Cape problem, and to join in this narrow stupidity is an embarrasment to SA rugby. SARFU’ you have made yet another far reaching balls-up.
Let’s all watch the inevitable self destruction shall we?
11 May 2012, 20:34 pm
The best rugby decision of the Decade………..Cull the self destructing, woeful, hopeless, rubbish, pathetic, LIONS!!!!!!!!! CLAP CLAP CLAP………
11 May 2012, 20:37 pm
Lets hope no other team will ever dominate the last spot on the log like the LIONS HAD………………..
11 May 2012, 22:16 pm
Meerkatte
‘The best rugby decision of the decade’?????
See my above post. Are you stupid? The capacity and need for growth requires another team, but the NZ/AUS unions will not lose that extra proportion of the profits that are paid for by the SA Rugby public. Sarfu is culling one of it’s own to accomodate their bosses at SANZAR.
How is a concesion like that a good rugby decision?
11 May 2012, 22:24 pm
@hensopper1(hensopper1)-237:
Anybody supporting the Lions causes to continue on this road of complete embarrassment, purely because they are based in Gauteng and not withstanding the fact that they are incapable of playing super rugby in my mind and most other individuals with at least half a brain is a complete idiot. Lets get back to the fact that in the past 11 years they average last place on the log, 2000 unanswered points, most games lost, worst crowd support, longest loosing streak and yes…. Incredibly the have managed this for 11 years running. How stupid can 1 person be?
11 May 2012, 22:25 pm
@hensopper1(hensopper1)-237: the lions were supposed to be culled eons ago, they were in the comp illegally anyway!
11 May 2012, 22:26 pm
@hensopper1(hensopper1)-237:
Yes.. The benchmark of pathetic has been set!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is a joyous relief that they are out of their misery……
11 May 2012, 22:34 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-239: Oh how much joy will I get when the Kings get smashed week in and week out
They, who sold their spoils, to the Sharks and now want to get into Super Rugby
Cheeky will gain and Luke will increase his 3million rand per year contract
Thank you
11 May 2012, 22:40 pm
Worst crowd support? Quorte your numbers in terms of Average crowd support/pay TV customers in the region compared to all other franchises, not just South African ones.
Transformation. Illegaly how?
Unfortunately the realities of what transformation means escapes you. The largest most vital urban centre of Black South Africa,Soweto no longer has a Super rugby team. Explain how this serves to be a good thing? SARFU have failed and continue to do so as far as growing the game goes.
11 May 2012, 22:43 pm
@hensopper1(hensopper1)-242:
The Lion hold the record for the lowest number of tickets sold for 1 game it was in 2010 and sold just under 3700 tickets….. I know in your eyes that is quite good, but anyone else would think it is quite pathetic!
11 May 2012, 22:47 pm
@Meerkatte(phil72)-243: Watch and learn how the Kings do something similar
11 May 2012, 22:47 pm
@JL1(JL1)-241: i see you’re happy perpetuating tacitus’ R3 million propaganda…
you weren’t b(itching when the lions we getting flogged week in week out, when the likes of manie reyneke were stuffing their faces full with union money.
the lions are based in joburg but were struggling to get sponsorships – Auto & General Lions, Xerox Lions – until gumede came through and organised them the MTN deal,i’m sure MTN has an exit clause in their contract & will make use of it if lions get the snip.
11 May 2012, 22:47 pm
@hensopper1(hensopper1)-242:
Also not really about skin color. SARU has also not sacked them as a franchise…. the decision was made that the team last on the SA conference will be booted…. But we all know it will be the LIONS!!!!!!!!!!!! They can still try and proof that they belong by winning a few games and not finish last!!!!!!!!
11 May 2012, 22:49 pm
@JL1(JL1)-244:
We will watch… and if we ever steep to those levels, will be the first to admit that we don’t deserve to be there………….
11 May 2012, 22:59 pm
@hensopper1(hensopper1)-242: soweto has produced how many rugby players that you know?
how do mamelodi, attridgeville, soshanguve, mabopane youngsters currently benefit from the bulls franchise? all talk and no substance!
yes, judge dennis davis said the spears had a legal right to play super rugby,after that judgement oregan hoskins, adam haddad, sid loubscher embarked on one of the biggest acts of corruption in sa rugby history!
just to entrench the lions, 6 years later the lions are still kak!
11 May 2012, 23:07 pm
just flicked thru posts didn’t see this… from rugby365
The Souther Kings will play in the 2013 Super Rugby tournament. That is a fact! However, they have no guarantee of participation in this SANZAR showpiece beyond next year.
This became clear in a ‘briefing document’ released by the South African Rugby Union.
It is almost certain that the Lions will be the team to be axed from the South African conference at the conclusion of 2012 – unless there is a dramatic change in fortunes in the final eight weeks of the season.
SARU also confirmed that the ‘top four’ teams in the SA conference will join the Kings in 2013.
That means the last-placed Lions – currently 12 points behind the Cheetahs (fourth) on the SA conference standings – is the team to be dropped.
However, the SANZAR document also make it clear that there will be promotion/relegation for the SA teams at the end of the 2013 and 2014 seasons.
“Rugby has been consistently united in supporting the Kings’ place in Super Rugby in 2013,” SARU CEO Jurie Roux said.
“Our focus has been on finding a rugby answer to the questions that flow from that decision that’s fair, transparent in its mechanism and will strengthen South African rugby in the long run. Those discussions continue.
“Until a final decision is reached, the franchises and the SARU presidency are agreed that it would be unhelpful to the competing teams to publicly debate the pros and cons of different scenarios.
“When a decision is announced we will be able to report back to rugby supporters in full.”
It was also revealed that next Thursday, May 17, franchise representatives and members of SARU executive committee will meet in Johannesburg for further discussions.
However, this is not a decision-making body and can only make recommendations to the Exco.
SARU’s briefing document:
Decision-making authority
* The identity of the South African teams participating in the Super Rugby competition is governed by the constitution of the South African Rugby Union (SARU).
* Clause 9.2.5 specifies that the General Meeting is responsible for the “approval of the format, structure and composition of SARU’s Major Competition, currently known as the Absa Currie Cup or its successor, as well as determining the SA teams to participate in Super Rugby competitions.”
* The voting membership of the General Meeting is made up of two representatives of the 14 provinces – each of whom has one vote (28) – and the chairman of the meeting (who is the President of the South African Rugby Union or his deputy) making a total of 29 votes.
* A simple majority is required to pass motions in relation to this clause.
* The next scheduled General Meeting of SARU is Friday, July 13 in Cape Town.
Events in 2012
January 27: A Special General Meeting was held to consider Super Rugby participation (among other things).
* The SARU Executive Council (Exco) proposed that the top four teams in the South African conference at the end of the 2012 competition join the Southern Kings as the South African representatives in the 2013 competition.
* It was also proposed that the last-placed team in the South African Conference would play a promotion/relegation match against the non-Super Rugby franchise at the conclusion of the 2013 and 2014 competitions.
* The meeting reaffirmed the Kings’ participation in the 2013 tournament.
* The franchises requested that a decision on the mechanism of qualification was postponed to allow them time to make alternative proposals.
* The General Meeting accepted the request. Jurie Roux, SARU CEO, asked for it to be recorded that the delay in a decision was at the franchises’ request, therefore precluding them (unions) from criticism of delays in any decisions.
February 23: Franchise representatives and members of the Exco met for a second time to discuss the way forward.
* It was decided that franchises representatives would accompany SARU’s SANZAR delegates (Roux and deputy president Mark Alexander) to meet SANZAR partners with proposals to encompass the inclusion of a sixth South African franchise. The group was scheduled to depart on March 17.
March 14: A final preparation meeting was held between franchise representatives and SARU’s SANZAR delegates.
* The meeting requested SARU to write to Australia and New Zealand requesting a postponement in the visit in order to prepare additional expansion options.
* No date has been rescheduled.
Next Steps
May 17: Franchise representatives and members of Exco will meet in Johannesburg for further discussions. This is not a decision-making body and can only make recommendations to the Exco.
May 24: Next scheduled meeting of the SARU Exco.
July 13: Next scheduled meeting of the SARU General Council.
11 May 2012, 23:08 pm
I work with and know plenty of Lions supporters and they understand the reality of the situation. And that they are going down. That is the reality of professional sport. Sad but true.
11 May 2012, 23:09 pm
@Meerkatte(phil72)-247: you sold your Super 15 to the Sharks
No ticket anymore
You will get hammered like no other team
Thank you
11 May 2012, 23:15 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-245: Your smileys show your ignorance
3 MILLION RAND PER YEAR!!!!!! You do your homework a bit old Transie as my source is not Tacitus
Question? Tomorrow the Falcons start a Super Rugby Team, shall we let them in?
11 May 2012, 23:16 pm
@ufo(ufo)-249:
The promotion/relagation issue from end Super 15 2013 still has to be sorted out. So the Kings might have a short shelf life. I don’t see any guarantee that they are in it for 3 years. There are still many things to conquer.
By the time time 2016 comes around, we could have a Super 20!
11 May 2012, 23:26 pm
Bloody politics at work! Lions or Transvaal are rugby institutions. Who the f….k are Kings?
11 May 2012, 23:27 pm
Meerkatte you half wit.
Why are you giving me the numbers of supporters at one Lions game in 2010? How does one game have any meaning here? The average support numbers compared to all other 14 franchises over the last few years. That is what I asked you to look at before talking about market numbers in the franchise region.
Was jy by die skool daar onder in die Oos Kaap?
Yes TRANSFORMATION exactly how I wrote that no transformation has taken place that is acceptable.That is exactly why there is an urgent need to transform the largest urban region in the country. One that is sustained by a genuine and sizeable established support base.
To include the Kings does not automaticaly mean the Lions must be taken outside and shot in the head, or do you understand Transformation the way Stalin did?
The current deal as written above allows the bottom placed team to playoff every year with the one that has just gone down. If you carefully think about how the players and teams will be unsettled in this scenario, the disaster is obvious. But you never thought of that did you? When the Kings lose to the Lions in the 2013 playoff, after finishing last in a season of shame and pain, what will you say then/
This deal is a lemon.
11 May 2012, 23:28 pm
@JL1(JL1)-251: get it right, they sold ‘hosting rights’ and when the fifth franchise became available decided to team up – border, ep & swd – to form the spears.
you reckon swd also “sold their super rugby status” to the stormers?
i tell you now, the leopards & pumas should’ve “sold their super rugby” affiliation to the GLRU anyway, seeing that they haven’t been paid a lousy CENT since 2007!
this fact seems not to bother you but i bet you if cheeky & anele were to pocket all of the R6.6 million SARU pays to the franchises you’d be making a stink about it…hypocrite much?
11 May 2012, 23:30 pm
@JL1(JL1)-252: you’re concerned about smileys? oh goodness me
11 May 2012, 23:31 pm
@Napier(Napier)-254:
R75mil in the red, loosing 6 games for every 1 they win…….. Quite an institution…. a bankrupt woeful institution never the less!
The KINGS have a positive balance sheet… enough said!
11 May 2012, 23:31 pm
@JL1(JL1)-252: the valke are already benefitting from super rugby, since 2006!
11 May 2012, 23:32 pm
@JL1(JL1)-252: please reveal your source then i will fall back, no issues.
11 May 2012, 23:33 pm
No TRANSFORMATION, JLI pointed out that you put pretty smileys on your posts. You are therefore, you are ‘concerned’ about Smileys.
11 May 2012, 23:35 pm
If I have to explain that financial loss I will be branded a racist. Things certainly have chanced in my old country. Anyone want to buy the old national flag? Have one
11 May 2012, 23:37 pm
Transvaal club rugby is weak and that speaks volumes. Wits aren’t represented in the Varsity Cup. Club rugby in Tvl was a strongold. Those days are now gone. The Lions are basically a cheque book side and soon the cheques will start bouncing.
11 May 2012, 23:37 pm
@hensopper1(hensopper1)-255:
Which stat would the LIONS not be last in at super rugby for the past 11 years clever one?
What exactly are you arguing? Yes the LIONS has been the worst supported team in super rugby over the past 11 years. Even the stadiums in NZ without seating arrangement have been better supported! Go and do your homework plonker!
11 May 2012, 23:38 pm
i seem to recall that the spears are guaranteed 2 years of super rugby. that means in 2013 the playoff to get back into super rugby will be lions against 4th placed SA side – so probably cheetas. this makes sense as it was considered kings would need the certainty to attract players, and the time to develop as a super rugby team.
so kings will play their first relegation match in 2014 if they finish last in SA conference.
sorry for lions fans, but that union is a joke. could the kings really be any worse by 2014?
11 May 2012, 23:39 pm
@IAAS(I am a stormer)-263:
Well said!!!
11 May 2012, 23:42 pm
MEERKATTE
The Kings have a ‘positive balance sheet’, If you ask me their balance sheet has been unbalanced since the border wars. How exactly do you think they have recently cleared up their unpaid depts? By professional excellence throughout their rugby structures?
They are not self sustainable. The Lions are, unless you buy into the media generated misrepresentation of the Guma group attempted takeover under the guise of well meaning investment.
Let the Kings concentrate 1st on winning in the Currie Cup, or even the Vodacom cup. Pointing to the onfield performance of the lions is ridiculous when you look at the true state of EP/Kings
11 May 2012, 23:44 pm
Meerkatte, the support numbers [average crowd and pay tv customers] for the Lions are not the lowest. Check.
11 May 2012, 23:48 pm
We not talking about vodacom cup or currie cup… LIONS will keep there currie cup status… we are talking about super rugby where the LIONS have proven without any shadow of a doubt that they are not capable of playing at that level!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now the LIO)NS being self sustainable?????????????? They are 75mil in the red, they are BANKRUMPT !!!!!!!!!!!!! wake up. How stupid are you?
11 May 2012, 23:53 pm
@Napier(Napier)-254:so they’re an ‘institution’ you say, so i guess they’re entitled to play super rugby indefinitely?
@hensopper1(hensopper1)-261: i’m sure i also wrote words before & inbetween the smileys but he, like you seem to be drawn to only the smileys
11 May 2012, 23:55 pm
@hensopper1(hensopper1)-268:
And i FEEL for Loosing LIONS and There supporters… will unfortunately have to trek to loftus to watch some rugga>>>>>
11 May 2012, 23:58 pm
@hensopper1(hensopper1)-255: do you think in 2006 if the cheetahs had finished last and thus were the team to ge relegated SARU would’ve spent R30 million to destroy the the Spears like they did to save the lions?
R30 million, money that could’ve been used for rugby development was used to corrupt the system & wangle justice, seemingly this type if conduct sits well with you unless it is done by politicians.
12 May 2012, 00:03 am
@hensopper1(hensopper1)-267: please man, their OWN accountants Pricewatershouse said the Lions were R73 million in debt. GumaTac just took that report & presented it in court as EVIDENCE! they did not write the audit themselves!
12 May 2012, 00:03 am
The LIONS without a super rugby budget will never play super rugby again!!!!! there is no way that they would beat the KINGS after 2 Years of super rugby!!!!!!! The only way would be a Super 16. Am afraid this could be the end of the LIONS.
12 May 2012, 00:18 am
The Kings vs The Lions.
Why not combine and make it The Lion King(s)?
Dis amper soos die Kaapse skollie vir die cherie gese het terwyl hy ‘n mes teen haar keel hou en sy gulp aftrek: Choose your weapon, ek gaan jou in elk geval steek.
Six of the one and a half dosen of the other.
12 May 2012, 00:31 am
@nama1(nama1)-275:
Unfortunately, sad times. Some proud Lions supporters still wore their Lions jerseys to work today. And put on a brave face.
As long as they don’t go and support those skollies in Pretoria now.
12 May 2012, 00:47 am
It’s OK. Most (ex) Lions fans are now Sharks fans anyway.
12 May 2012, 00:51 am
@nama1(nama1)-275: and where would they play their matches?
the golden lions, pumas, leopards, swd eagles, border bulldogs & ep kings would have to share the R6.6 million super rugby stipend while the guppys gorge themselves on their own!
12 May 2012, 00:53 am
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-277: no.1 is racist darren.scott
12 May 2012, 00:58 am
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-277:
The Lions fans I know have better class than that!
12 May 2012, 01:27 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-278:
Maybe we can ask Walt Disney to build them a new stadium.
12 May 2012, 06:19 am
@Meerkatte(phil72)-264:
I don’t think he is making himself a plonker you are !
LAST YEARS HOMES GAME NUMBERS !(PLEASE DON’T ASK FOR THIS YEARS AGAIN AS THEY ARE BETTER EXCEPT SHARKS FIGURES ARE DOWN)
1.Stormer 41,850
2.Reds 33,600
3.Bulls 32,105
4.Sharks 29,140
5.Lions 22,351
6.Waratah 20,493
7.Cheetah 20,187
8.Blues 17,301
9.Rebels 17,141
10.Force 16,201
11.Saders 15,010
12.Brumbies 13,110
13.Canes 10,143
14.Hlands 9,413
15.Chiefs 7,766
12 May 2012, 06:28 am
The problem with these figures is the Lions have been doing bad, and still have decent numbers, there is room for improvement the Cheetas have reached their ceiling. The cheetas cannot improve even if they were winning the super15- that is fact.
12 May 2012, 06:51 am
@umkhonto(umkhonto)-283: the cheetahs can always implement a “BUY ONE GET ONE FREE” ticket sale drive too & they’d push their ‘ceiling’.
12 May 2012, 09:35 am
UMKHONTO.
Nice one. Facts. These morons [transformation and Meerkatt) have no grasp of the facts.
The Lions form a massive proportion of the entire super rugby market. How good would it be if they were even half good? People with no concern for Rugby in SA are making far reaching decisions and these people actively support them. Best to leave them with those numbers to digest, explaining things slowly to these ‘kenners’ is tiring at this time of the morning.
I think the numbers speak for themselves.
12 May 2012, 09:40 am
Transformation.
That is a contradiction in terms. The whole point of spectators is that they are paying customers.
Or do you favour a more North Korean solution. You could also get the supporters you bus in to wave o-ordinated banners.
You are now turning your intelligence towards the Cheetahs Franchise. Leave them alone, they know what they are doing.
12 May 2012, 10:26 am
@hensopper1(hensopper1)-285:i haven’t called you names at any point, but now i’m a moron…good debating skills buster
12 May 2012, 10:36 am
@hensopper1(hensopper1)-286:if all teams slashed their ticket prices like the lions their numbers would look much more rosier too. it’s not rock science!
Lions slash ticket prices
View 81 comments | Comment on this story
2012-03-20 14:08
Johannesburg – Coca-Cola Park will be the place to be on Saturday,
March 24 when the Lions take on
the Stormers in their Vodacom
Super Rugby clash at 19:10.
Tickets have been priced as
follows for the North and
South stands:
Adults:Two-for-one special. Buy
one ticket for R60 and get one free
Students:Two-for-one special.
Buy one ticket for R30 and get one
free
Scholars:Tickets cost R10 each
Tickets are available at the Coca-
Cola Park Ticket Office between
08:00 and 16:00 from Monday to
Friday.
On Saturday at the stadium,
scholars will pay just R10 and
students R15 each behind the
poles.
For those who prefer to sit higher
up in the stands, tickets are priced
at just R35 each – a 50% discount
per ticket for tickets in the East Upper stand.
12 May 2012, 12:50 pm
Transformation.
I apologise for calling you a Moron.
I have a genetic disposition towards Ellis Park.
You are sinking to new lows with the attached ticket promotions. I get your point but please look at the bigger picture here.
My point is that no team should be left ut. Simple. And I have not read one single good reason why this should not be so. It is always easier to break things than to build them in sunny SA.
Cheers, work to do.
12 May 2012, 14:14 pm
@umkhonto(umkhonto)-282:
Super 15 postions
2012 –15th Last
2011 .. 14th 2nd last
Super 14 positions
2010 .. 14th last
2009 .. 12th 3rd last
2008 .. 14th last
2007 .. 12th 3rd last
2006 .. 13th 2nd last
Super 12 positions
2005 .. 11th 2nd last
2004 .. 12th last
2003 .. 12th last
2002 .. 11th 2nd last
Most defeats – Super 14: 13, Lions (2010 might better it this year
Worst points difference – -315, Lions (2010)
Most points against – 585, Lions (2010)
Least attended game:
3,527 for the Lions v Blues at Ellis park (I’m also sure this counted the cleaning, vending and security staff)
Lions on average fill 20 % of their stadium, 50% worse than their closest rival
Home game stats 2010
1. Stormers – 7 at home. Total: 296,674. Average: 42,382. Stadium: 83%
2. Bulls – 7 at home. Total: 240,035. Average: 34,290. Stadium: 66%
3. Sharks – 6 at home. Total: 152,002. Average: 25, 333. Stadium: 46%
4. Waratahs – 6 at home. Total: 145, 227. Average: 24, 204. Stadium: 59%
5. Reds – 7 at home. Total: 159,707. Average: 22,815. Stadium 43%
6. Crusaders – 7 at home. Total: 150,068. Average: 21,438. Stadium: 59%
7. Blues – 6 at home. Total: 106, 400. Average: 17,733. Stadium: 29% *
8. Force – 6 at home. Total: 102, 121. Average: 17,020. Stadium 83%
9. Brumbies – 7 at home. Total: 106,797. Average: 15,256. Stadium 62%
10. Hurricanes – 6 at home. Total: 89,157. Average: 14,859. Stadium 43%
11. Cheetahs – 7 at home. Total: 101,384. Average: 14,483. Stadium: 32%
12. Chiefs – 7 at home. Total: 81,400. Average: 11,628. Stadium 42%
13 Lions – 6 at home. Total: 66835. Average: 11,139. Stadium 19%
14. Highlanders – 6 at home. Total: 35,060. Average: 5,843. Stadium 29%
No tell me again…. Why are they getting chopped???????????????????????????????????????
12 May 2012, 14:20 pm
Forgot
Worst performing team of the decade
2000 unanswered points past 11 seasons
R75 mil in the red
Do you need any more reasons? plonker!!
12 May 2012, 14:21 pm
@Meerkatte(phil72)-291:
And these are all time super rugby records!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
12 May 2012, 14:23 pm
@Meerkatte(phil72)-290:
In any first world country they would have been chopped 5 years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
12 May 2012, 17:00 pm
The past five years LIONS have managed to win 11 games…. that is averaging 2 a season>>>>>>>>>>
12 May 2012, 17:02 pm
@Meerkatte(phil72)-290:
Your figures are wrong these are the correct ones- Home game averages
.Blues – 24564 (17,301)
Saders – 17501 (15,010)
Canes – 12284 (10,143)
Chiefs – 12013 (7,766)
Hlands – 16063 (9,413)
Waratah – 21858 (20,493)
Brumbies – 13199 (13,110)
Force – 14688 (16,201)
Rebels – 13560 (17,141)
Reds – 33056 (33,600)
Lions – 23599 (22,351)
Stormer – 40315 (41,850)
Bulls – 34343 (32,105)
Sharks – 21571 (29,140)
Cheetah – 23766 (20,187)
12 May 2012, 17:13 pm
@Meerkatte(phil72)-294:
Sorry you only one 10 in the past 5 years before you get to excited and in the same time frame lost 53 games
An Plonker umkhonto, my figures are 100% correct
Ellis park only full when playing soccer. But there will be a lot more of that, because there ain’t going to be no RUGBY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
12 May 2012, 17:53 pm
@Meerkatte(phil72)-296:
Show where you sucked the figures from plonker ?
12 May 2012, 22:31 pm
Sad to lOse a team with so much history but they are pretty awful. That game against the blues they made 1.4 mistakes per min when they had possession. Don’t think kings will do much better. But easy points for sa teams next year as we will get to play them twice so may actually be to our benefit
13 May 2012, 18:11 pm
i think its about time that the eastern cape can get some super rugby cash and maybe keep some players. how its been done has been shocking and that goes to the Lions as well as the Kings. but only a truly myopic supporter could honestly argue that the Lions deserve a S15 spot.
i do think people will be surpised at how the locals will support the team. and the nice thing about the eastern cape is that everyone supports rugby.
the comments about people being bussed in is as insulting as it is misguided. before i moved to the eastern cape and understood how deep the rugby culture runs here i may have made similar comments.
They will get pumped at first, but how will that make them different from the Lions at the moment? Will we give them a decade to “rebuild”?
13 May 2012, 18:25 pm
also, the mere fact that Ellispark and the old Transvaal are rugby institutions should be even more reason that we stop them and their long suffering supporters from being humiliated, and give them time to rebuild withiut the pressure.
Manchester United were relegated in the 70′s and look at them now.
Ellispark was the place where i started really loving rugby, we used to get in after for cheaper after school rugby games as long as you wore your school uniform, and you had to sit behind the posts. saw liam Kirkham nearly killed so many times by the Province Bulls forwards, and it was something of a fortress for the Boks, i saw some incredible Tri Nations battles there
but now every Super Rugby player knows that a trip to Ellispark is nothing to worry about. They have cheapened the entire legacy of Ellispark.
no. its time for the Lions to get benched. not sold, or retired, but definitely benched.
13 May 2012, 18:28 pm
wow, my phone is npot best for typing long posts, please excuse the typo’s and look at the context.
14 May 2012, 09:25 am
@Getafix(phil72)-206:
Pretty good at missing the point aren’t you – my how ironic your name is!
I never argued on the basis of the Lions having some kind of “deserving” right to be in the S15.
What I said was that potentially the largest union with the biggest financial potential has been placed in jeopardy. Instead of fixing this mess (because it is a mess), SARU are going to make it worse and SA rugby is going to be prejudiced.
If you cannot address my points I will take it you have no response and I win the argument. Thanks.
14 May 2012, 11:37 am
Stop being a sour looser and go and buy yourself a season ticket at Loftus…. See, easy, problem solved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
14 May 2012, 11:41 am
Sore loser perhaps?
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