Lions set for chop?
11 May 2012
Saru has confirmed its plan to relegate the last-placed South African franchise at the end of the season.
This proposed solution was made by Saru’s executive council at its special general meeting in January. The top four teams on the SA conference log would therefore join the Kings in 2013. As it stands, the Lions would drop out.
Saru said a promotion-relegation play-off would then take place after the 2013 and 2014 campaigns.
However, the franchises requested that a decision on the mechanism of qualification be postponed to allow them time to make alternative proposals. The officials at the general meeting accepted the request. Saru CEO Jurie Roux asked for it to be recorded that this delay was at the franchises’ request, therefore precluding the franchises from criticism of late decision-making.
A final decision will be made after meetings with the SA Super Rugby franchises on 17 May, the Saru executive committee on 24 May and the Saru general council on 13 July (21 rounds into the 2012 Super Rugby tournament).
‘Rugby has been consistently united in supporting the Kings’ place in Super Rugby in 2013,’ said Roux. ‘Our focus has been on finding a rugby answer to the questions that flow from that that’s fair, transparent in its mechanism and will strengthen South African rugby in the long run. Those discussions continue.
‘Until a final decision is reached, the franchises and the Saru presidency are agreed that it would be unhelpful to the competing teams to publicly debate the pros and cons of different scenarios. When a decision is announced we will be able to report back to rugby supporters in full.’
305 Comments
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11 May 2012, 14:43 pm
@Dusky(Dusky)-142:
Why couldn’t the SARU just wait,
until the time was right.
Is that too simple.
This decision……………………I imagine, will be devastating for the Lions.
And could be destructive for the Kings as well.
11 May 2012, 14:43 pm
@Paws(Paws)-130: True, but I get the feeling there is no provincialist mentality that dominates their structures.
11 May 2012, 14:44 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-147: The Kings were not in existence then nor the Brumbies, Blues, Hurricanes, Crusaders, Reds etc etc get my drift…
11 May 2012, 14:45 pm
@TooMuchRugby(TooMuchRugby)-132:
Yip, they’ll go for the cheque first, second and third. Somewhere past 107852nd they will be the rugby players welfare and the fans. At infinity is refereeing standards…
Only way would be for ABSA to realize how little value the Currie Cup is and pull the plug.
Would obviously be sad to see it go, but this simply cannot go on. Anybody who says otherwise is simply delusional.
Besides, how cheated are we as supporters getting now? The team with the least injuries is going to win this competition, and that will carry into the 4N. Our stars are getting smashed into the ground and there is simply not enough time for them to get over injuries.
If SANZAR had a functioning brain they’d check out how successful NFL is and model themselves on that. Quality rules, not quantity – the Superbowl finalists play 19 games in the entire season – and how much money do those broadcasting rights get?
Those rights are so valuable because the fans are sooooooooo hungry after the off-season the stadiums are packed every game and every TV is manned.
Here it doesn’t matter if you miss a game because there’s almost one every weekend. Nowadays I actually barely watch, especially the Aussie derbies, how short-changed are the Aussies fans these days?
Heck, if there were only 8 or 10 home games a year every stadium would be packed, even the Lions! If the Lions got themselves off the floor they could pack out FNB, how’s that for revenue? It costs a fortune to open a stadium for a match, rather have fewer and earn more. Players last longer and earn for longer and we the fans get more and more excited and have more and more fun.
Must be tough being in SANZAR and wonder through life with no brain.
Currie Cup is dead. SANZAR have killed domestic rugby in SA and SARU have negligently allowed this to happen. Surely they are in breach of their fiduciary duties to the domestic game?
C’mon KEO, grow some nuts and ask Jurie some tough questions. Enough of these sweetheart interviews.
11 May 2012, 14:46 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-150: Ok – merit.
Lets try make this simple. If you interview two candidates for a job. Candidate A has a Masters degree in the appropriate field, and 12 years experience. During those 12 years, this candidate has successfully established and run project teams, bringing tangible profit to the organization they work for in the order of several hundred million US dollars.
Candidate B. Candidate B has a Masters degree as well. From a slightly different university. 2 years experience, and has never been the lead on any big projects but has a so-so type record of working within a project team.
All the other issues you would cover in an interview are fine for both candidates. Which candidate do you hire ?
11 May 2012, 14:48 pm
@Dusky(Dusky)-148: So, I show you up as dumb hypocrite, but we must just move right along, as the “status quo” is the “status quo”??, hypocrite, now that “status quo” benefits your prejudicial ssss, its ok?, well, why don’t we let the corrupt, looting ANC bigwits continue with “status quo”??
11 May 2012, 14:49 pm
@cane(cane)-151: The structure I am most disappointed in is SANZAR. I cannot believe the New Zealand and Australian stakeholders were lulled into this.
(Although I can tell you, that the international business community has little or no comprehension of the way affirmative policy is used in South Africa. To them it sounds ludicrous.)
Do they realize that this devalues the competition ? Oh well, each South African team will have two easy wins now. Free points for the other SA franchises has just increased by 10. We will hear more about this once our Kiwi and Australian counterparts wake up to what they have agreed to.
11 May 2012, 14:50 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-156: Can you answer my question from 155, instead of behaving like the ANC and responding like you did ?
11 May 2012, 14:52 pm
Fortunately the Lions has set such mediocre standards in the past, The KINGS only have to finish second last on the log to warrant their place in super rugby!!!
11 May 2012, 14:53 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-144:
How did the lions get into that grand position to get the money you are so stuck and obsessed on?
Easy, they have always been one of the strong unions and because of there playing ability got in positions to make / maintain that stream of revenue. In short they worked to get there, and have to work harder to stay there.
Why the Lions .. as said before by many, no matter how bad they are in S15, they are still in the top 5, whether it is because of money or no money.
If the kings want to get there they can climb the ladder of success, the higher they go the more money they will get … a good start will actually be for one of their 3 teams who make them up win the B section of the CC and actually get and participate in the A section. But wait, has that also not already been given to them on a silver platter for next year’s CC at the expense of the Pumas and another team?
And while you are on about money … are you sure the kings don’t have money .. what is Solomans and the two Watsons making in their pockets there each year?
11 May 2012, 14:55 pm
@Getafix(phil72)-159: From a Super rugby perspective (if we discount the lower structures like the Currie Cup) – you are right. The Kings don’t really have to do much to merit their inclusion.
I cant wait to watch the spectacle though. I can imagine a rampant Crusaders side at Canterbury vs. the Kings that lost to the Pumas dude….the Witbank Pumas….haaaaaaaa ha ha ha….I am going to enjoy the slaughter.
Actually, if I played for the Kings now – I would get the hell out ! I wouldn’t want to be part of that circus.
11 May 2012, 14:55 pm
@Dusky(Dusky)-155: using the the facts you have given and holding all other variables constant, ceterus paribus, Candidate A gets the nod.
However, if I’m trying to venture into new, younger, vibrant, ethnic, religious etc etc markets or any other variable that you failed to include, the outcome might be Candidate B. On merit as well, so what is merit I ask again.
11 May 2012, 14:56 pm
How can anybody support the Lions cause and then the proclaim how intelligent they are and how much merit there is in their decision????????????????
11 May 2012, 14:57 pm
Did not realize so many dummies on this blog……………….
11 May 2012, 14:57 pm
@Paws(Paws)-160: Xhosa kid has been asked a few uncomfortable questions, so he has stopped quoting latin, using big words etc. and reverted to the classic lash back approach. Unfortunately, this blog is not Luthuli house and there are no security guards to usher those asking the difficult questions out the room.
11 May 2012, 14:58 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-162: Candidate A was the young, black candidate. You see – you are blinded by prejudice too. So dont come on here and call others hypocrites.
11 May 2012, 14:58 pm
@Getafix(phil72)-163: Its baffles brains!!, there is simply no logic besides vested prejudice or interest.
11 May 2012, 15:00 pm
@Dusky(Dusky)-165: Spoke tooooo soooon, your first mistake is to take me for granted, my education, my background and more importantly my rational self and IQ, not that I’m bothered, just saying.
11 May 2012, 15:01 pm
@Dusky(Dusky)-157:
All Parties (SA, OZ, NZ and Newscorp) signed off on the current Agreement and Term.
This debacle rests squarely on the shoulders of the SARU.
If this decision was forced upon them from HIGHER UP the food chain. Then they should have resigned on mass.
11 May 2012, 15:02 pm
The Lions will be fine might lose a few players but will be cash flush at the end of the season. If the Lions really wanted to they could sell ELlispark take the money and rebuild from FNB stadium.
The cost of the renovations alone was 200 Million. The thing is if there was a buyer,then I would say sell it. I think its value is about 880 million.
I am positive Xhosanostra is at play in this deal, but this is going to be a hard pill to swallow but SARU will also be choking.
11 May 2012, 15:03 pm
@Dusky(Dusky)-166: Blinded by race??, how do you deduce that, I thought your candidate’s race was irrelevant.
11 May 2012, 15:05 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-153: Don’t you worry – I get your drift. It’s hard to miss.
11 May 2012, 15:05 pm
Thank the maker that the team finishing last will not be the Sharks
11 May 2012, 15:08 pm
There is absolutely no rational to argue for the existence of the Lions, only vested interest/prejudice would make any person argue for the Lions, I repeat.
11 May 2012, 15:09 pm
e-toll
e(p) – kings
same strange feeling of getting screwed, and by many of the same players.
11 May 2012, 15:12 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-174: The Lions have no reason for existence, but the Kings Must Have It. I guess it’s that bloody dynamic again. For some reason I just don’t get it. Don’t feel bad though – I don’t get polygamy either.
11 May 2012, 15:12 pm
The comp rules say the best players and the best teams from each country must take part.
Eish!!!
How long before the Aussie and NZ teams question what the kings are doing there? 10 points for the other SA teams, only 5 points for them, and two of those won’t get a chance and miss out completely.
11 May 2012, 15:15 pm
@Getafix(phil72)-163:
Well, the Lions occupy the seat of the largest city in the country with the largest stadia available, Ellis Park, FNB and Orlando. It is the team which has a shocking history since the departure of Louis Luyt (may have been disagreeable but he must have done something right).
Instead of fixing the Lions and getting them back on their feet and exploiting the country’s largest market, SARU are going to cast them out and replace them with the Kings, with one small stadium and a minor paying public – don’t tell me the fans are going to pay S15 ticket prices plus the cost of the trip from Queenstown for a weekend? In general the fans just don’t have the money.
So we’ll see the Kings playing to an empty stadium by the end of the first quarter of S15 2013 when they’ve taken their first couple of thrashes. SARU have neglected the region for so long many PE locals have adopted other provinces, like the Sharks, Stormers and Free State. Getting them to “love local” is only going to come off the back of wins, and the Kings aren’t going to be doing that soon. The Lions have been abominable, but the Kings I feel are going to re-write that script.
In essence the Kings have to start from scratch with a skeptical local public, let alone country-wide.
The Lions could be rescued and become one of the biggest money-makers for SARU and Ellis Park could return to the days it was a big money-spinner.
Now, the biggest stadium in the country’s rugby is going to go empty in preference for the smallest, with the least fans. A little bit of success started to bring the Lions fans back and the terraces of Ellis Park were pretty full the first couple of games this year.
Whilst in principle I believe the Kings should be developed and brought up to speed so we have 6 Unions and no others for top-flight rugby, I don’t believe this decision has been thought through and the damage it will do will outweigh the supposed benefits.
It is clearly a political decision, which is why it is a mess. If I were the Lions I’d see if I could sue SARU for lost earnings until the end of the current S15 format.
11 May 2012, 15:20 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-144:
Qualified in 1989 and beat NTVL in the final in 1990.
Merit qualification enough for you?
And stop trying to prove that you’re some sort of economist when in actual fact you’re probably sitting in the back office or admin dept of some run of the mill finance house.
You aint kidding anyone.
11 May 2012, 15:23 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-174:
I repeat:
They are one of the top 5 rugby playing unions in SA
They are better at playing rugby than the Kings
What more is relevant?
I can’t draw pictures to make that more clear ….
11 May 2012, 15:26 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-174:
There is a very very simple rationale for the Lions debate.
They won a Currie Cup last year against all odds by beating a full strength WP and Sharks side in the Final whilst the Kings couldnt even beat the Boland Cavaliers in their division final.
As a sharks supporter i welcome the kings inclusion because it means a given 10 points and teh Sharks points difference will blow out as well.
As a rugby supporter in SA, I think its abysmal how this whole thing has been handled.
11 May 2012, 15:27 pm
Whatever the different arguments for or against the Lions or Kings are…
the fact of the matter is that the Lions have been given chance after chance after chance after chance… and now pro Lions supporters demands another chance and another and another…
it is time for change that’s all…
only after the Kings have been given chance after chance after chance… will we be able to judge between the 2…
there, I’ve given you learned men an intelligent argument…
11 May 2012, 15:28 pm
@>^..^< katman(katman)-176: Lions existence in Super Rugby is to be ashamed off, However the Kings haven’t yet embarrassed themselves yet, so, simply put, you guys already have the ugly baby, whereas the Kings are pregnant.
11 May 2012, 15:30 pm
@John Galt(John Galt)-181: Winning the Currie Cup is a pretty solid point…
In that case the Stormers should be relegated…. they haven’t won the Currie Cup in a long time…
11 May 2012, 15:31 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-183: you’ve relayed the point more intelligently than I ever could have…
11 May 2012, 15:32 pm
@John Galt(John Galt)-179: Ha ha!!, funny, Chmapions Banana Boys won a promotion game!!!, LMFPO!!!!!!!
11 May 2012, 15:33 pm
@theOracle(theOracle)-182: No, the Lions weren’t “given” chance after chance. They weren’t “given” anything. They have been amongst the top 5 unions for the entire Super Rugby history. It’s only the Kings who demand to be “given” a chance. If you can’t even win the lower division CC, or the Vodacom Cup, you surely have no claim to SuperRugby.
11 May 2012, 15:36 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-186:
I love it when you arrive on this blog.
Every time you come here you make an arsehole of yourself through lack of knowledge on a subject ( the Moses Mabida, Cape Town stadium debate) and an inability to hold your emotions intact to complete your argument.
Too easy.
11 May 2012, 15:36 pm
talk about entitlement, Lions supporter b(itching that the deserve to play in Super Rugby indefinitely hehehe.
Loffie: Spears fiasco never rattled us
17 Nov 2006
Lions coach Eugene Elloff says the Spears saga had no bearing on their preparation for the Vodacom Super 14.
The Southern Cape franchise were involved in a protracted battle with Saru and SA Rugby (Saru’s commercial arm) over their participation in the regional tournament, until they abandoned their legal action yesterday.
The Lions were the franchise standing to lose out had the Spears been successful and, as the lowest placed South African team, would have been relegated from tournament.
While Elloff conceded that relegation had been a reality that he had to deal with daily, he said it never affected his team’s preparation.
“We were never burdened by the whole Spears saga,” Eloff told keo.co.za. “While everything was going on around us we went ahead with our preparation as usual and this debacle didn’t affect my team in the slightest.
“I am a rugby coach not a politician and my players focus on their games and not the political sideshows,” he added.
Asked what the consequences of a Spears victory would have meant for the Johannesburg-based franchise, Eloff was adamant that they would have taken it on the chin.
“At the moment this team is so motivated as a result of the way they finished off the Currie Cup that it wouldn’t have rocked the boat at all.
“We would have re-focussed our attention on preparing for next year’s Currie Cup and while it would be stupid to think that they [the players] would not have been disappointed, everyone here knows we are working towards a goal of being the best South African team.”
Eloff was reluctant to comment on what he thought of how the Spears had conducted themselves throughout the saga and added that he doubted his players would’ve been open to any player-sharing proposal from the Spears.
The Lions have routinely delivered poor performances in Super Rugby, but Eloff insisted that the Spears decision would not place them under any further pressure to prove that they could compete with the best teams in the southern hemisphere.
“We don’t have to justify anything to anyone,” he snapped. “We will go out and play our game and try to wave the flag for South Africa.”
6 years later, they still don’t think they need to “justify” anything to anyone. “we are one of the big 5 and we deserve it”
11 May 2012, 15:37 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-183: Neither have the Griffons or the Mozambique Supercrocodiles or the Kgalagadi Dustdevils. Chop.
11 May 2012, 15:40 pm
@theOracle(theOracle)-184:
Terrible logic. But nice try.
Its about SA rugby being competitive.
If you play against the best week in and week out, your only going to improve.
Play against the dregs and you’re bound to lose your edge.
11 May 2012, 15:45 pm
@John Galt(John Galt)-191: have australia become less competitive since the introduction of the Force and the Rebels?
11 May 2012, 15:48 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-189:
eish, how many times you going post that piece?
i think i know it verbatim now.
11 May 2012, 15:51 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-192:
Your argument assumes that the Rebels and the Force are in the same league, competitively, as the Kings.
Which they are not.
Every week, any Ausie side has a real chance of beating another Ausie side ie Force beating the Tahs etc.
Very different with the Kings in the SA conference.
11 May 2012, 15:53 pm
@charo(charo)-193: as many times as i want 8)
11 May 2012, 15:53 pm
This is not a promotion/relegation issue at all. The Queens will be playing in 2014, regardless.
In lew of this, the only reasonable solution would be for amalgamate the Bulls and Lions, call them the Bullion, let them play in SoWeTo and give Mitch a one way plane ticket.
11 May 2012, 15:54 pm
@Paws(Paws)-177:
It says nothing about the best teams, only the top players, as the S15 sides are regional franchises that don’t exist outside the S15. (not even in Oz).
So how do ensure the franchises have the top players? They sign them for their main union. Just have a look at the Bulls. Olivier is the only home grown backline player and Potgieter, Flip and Juandre are also recent signings.
This is no criticism of the Bulls, but of some of the bloggers here who believe that the provincial unions performances compared to the Kings unions and franchise are on an equal playing field.
Until the Kings play S15, they will never be able to attract or retain top players or youngsters to the region.
11 May 2012, 15:56 pm
@John Galt(John Galt)-194: what was the score in the Rebels’ first ever super rugby game against the Waratahs?
i’ll help you.
it was 46 – 0
so much for them being competitive…have australia stopped being competitive with the introduction of those two – clearly not so superior – teams?
11 May 2012, 15:58 pm
@John Galt(John Galt)-188: The only person who would won his case if we were all presenting to an unbiased judge, would be me, all your sentimental bullshyyt would be out the window, but I’m not arrssed either, Lions will be OUT!!! and the Kings will be IN, now chew on that!!!
It really grates you that you have underachieved so much at your age?
11 May 2012, 16:02 pm
@David(David)-197: HEAR HEAR
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