Lions want relegation play-offs
15 May 2012
Lions president Kevin de Klerk says Saru’s proposal of automatic relegation isn’t the fairest way to accommodate the Kings next season.
Saru dropped a bomb on Friday when it confirmed its plan for the last-placed team on the SA conference log to make way for the Kings in 2013. As it stands, the Lions will fall out.
However, this decision is not final. The South African franchises asked for time to discuss an alternative way forward, and they will get their opportunity to negotiate a different solution at a meeting with Saru this Thursday. A final decision will then be made following further meetings with the Saru executive committee on 24 May and the Saru general council on 13 July.
So what is expected to happen at Thursday’s gathering? With the Lions in the hot seat, De Klerk hopes a fair decision can be made.
‘I’m expecting the right outcome,’ De Klerk told keo.co.za. ‘We were one of the unions that voted for the Kings to play Super Rugby, but a solution on how they would be accommodated was never made. We were expecting a “Super 16″ next year. It was never agreed that one of the current franchises would have to fall out of Super Rugby.
‘I think the ideal solution would be having promotion-relegation play-offs. Automatic relegation would have drastic consequences for the relegated franchise [in terms of financial and player loss].’
De Klerk also expressed his disappointment in the delay of a final decision being made, but added that he understood Saru’s difficult position.
‘With all our injuries this season, the fact that we don’t know what’s going to happen does create a lot of pressure. But Saru is also stuck between a rock and a hard place. It made promises to Eastern Province long before I was president of the Lions. I just hope a fair decision can be made.’
Last week, John Mitchell told this site that an amalgamation between the Lions and Cheetahs would be a suitable solution. He believed this would create a team with enough quality depth to challenge for the Super Rugby title. However, De Klerk said the Lions were not backing this initiative.
‘John said that in a personal capacity,’ said De Klerk. ‘I’m not saying a merger is a possible solution, and I’m not saying it isn’t one either. But it’s not a plan that the Lions are considering at the moment.’
By Gareth Duncan
141 Comments
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15 May 2012, 16:28 pm
if only Lions supporters fought this hard with their union over the last decade or so. a DECADE
Kitshoff was probably in grade 3 last time the Lions had ANY impact in the Super Rugby series. semi’s 2001 and Kitshoff was born in 1992
15 May 2012, 16:29 pm
Moronic notion. Clasping at straws.
Relegation should be based on season long performance. One off moer sessions don’t help anyone. The justifications of financial and player exodus for this will still be true for the loser of the “relegation playoff”.
Particiaption in Super Rugby should be based on performance in the Currie Cup alone. The Super Rugby competition should be treated in the same way as the European Champions league for football. Top finishers in the local competition earn the right to play the other big boys.
The Currie Cup should be a seven team competition, with a five year moratorium on adjustment.
Given that the Cheetahs and the Griquas are already happy neighbours and regional partners, they should continue as thus. Their placing in the Currie Cup will determine the colour of the jersey and majority of the participation income.
The Kings should be included in the Currie Cup. No other promises.
The top 5 teams should be allowed to play in the Super Rugby tournament. The 6th team should offer up all of it’s players as draftees for the international competition.
15 May 2012, 16:34 pm
Whatever happens, don’t touch the Cheetahs.
It’s not their fault that the Lions are limp and the Kings don’t exist.
Two things need to be remembered about the Cheetahs:
1) Springbok factory (what good ever came out of Johannesburg?)
2) They know how to play rugby. The Cheetahs are everyone’s 1st or second favourite team. They know how to pass. They know how to run and they know how to score tries. For pure entertainment value, anyone daring to poison them with the Lions curse should be necklaced.
15 May 2012, 18:07 pm
@YoMama(YoMama)-103:
Fully agree.
Plus their management has stepped up to the plate with creative changes to team pattern and recruitment.
Dont bring Louis Luyt curse to Bloem
15 May 2012, 18:14 pm
Go the Wild Meercats!
15 May 2012, 18:45 pm
The solution is much simpler than that.
Forget promotion/relegation matches, teams being forced out or any type of stupid ****.
Let the unions do what they have been doing for a 100 years and ensure the Currie Cup remains the best local competition.
De-franchise unions completely from Super Rugby, award franchises to independent groups/companies/organisations/consortiums based on a set criteria of standards.
Make 5 regions available for 5 franchises and let them tender/approach the city, stadium owner and regional unions for their home base.
SA Rugby employs the coaches, no member of any union may serve on the franchise board (or coach a union team). Franchise has to select a minimum of 25 players from that region and representative unions and open a draft system for the remaining 10 places to be filled (spread the talent).
Regional unions get a guaranteed minimum amount from the broadcast pie paid to them each season plus additional fees dependent on how many players from their union is represented in the union.
If they own their stadiums and the franchise wants to ‘rent’ that they get additional funds.
THAT is a regional franchise based system.
Otherwise drop this whole franchise bullshit, and let the top 5 teams in the CC qualify.
The ‘historical rights’ argument for unions means nothing in Super Rugby which only started in 1996 – that right is reserved for them for Currie Cup only.
15 May 2012, 18:52 pm
It is done and dusted, LIONS are out!!!! and they will get there play off matches in 3 Years time…. so what is the problem?
15 May 2012, 19:22 pm
Yip, the cc champs conquerors of all have learnt a hard lesson – 10yrs too late! Now they wanna moan but seem to forget that they are too blame and their k@k sr legacy will hopefully be erased.
15 May 2012, 19:52 pm
would be unfair to have the future of the Kings depend on outcome of such a play off. A playoff between one franchise with lots of Supr Rugby experience vs a franchise with none… Not fair.
Lions (and other franchises) have enjoyed the benefits of Super Rugby for many seasons, without ever being faced with a promo/relegation playoff. Why should the Kings be subject to it after just one season. My opinion: bring the Cats back until 2015. After that I’m sure we can have 6 teams again. Kings deserve at least a fair chance.
15 May 2012, 20:16 pm
We wait and see and the chips will be down if we are out, so be it but there will be major repercussions. The Lions will survive and in 2015 we will be back and no crying from the rest, another team will be in the same position as the lions without the backing that the Lions will be are able to muster from the largest and richest city in the country. SARU will end up with egg on their face , but if humpty dumpty is running SARU who cares.
15 May 2012, 20:36 pm
The really shameful thing is that, those supporting the Kings inclusion are fighting the relegation/promotion playoff route because they know the Kings stand no chance of beating the Lions.
Its not about 15 wins from 80 games, its not about the worst record in Super rugby, the whole argument hinges around the fact that those supporting the Kings know for a fact that they wont beat the Lions in a promotion/relegation playoff…..
The same team who’s stats they continue to regurgitate on cue as justification for the Kings inclusion. 15 wins from 80 games Vrede says…how many ? ’15 from 80′…..and again, and again, and again….’15 wins from 80 games’…..if the Lions being poor is a reason to exclude them from Super rugby, then the Kings should easily win a promotion/relegation series right ?
This is obvious – because its the obvious solution, yet not supported by the Kings brigade. Why ? Just another case of forcible, counter-merit inclusion in South Africa.
The Kings don’t deserve to play Super rugby, but they feel entitled to. Entitlement….the African justification.
15 May 2012, 20:41 pm
The fact of the matter is that neither side needs to go down. Yes, the Eastern Cape should be developed as a decent pro rugby centre.
No, the Lions should never be relegated.
Almost every argument here is based on the principle that SA can only have 5 teams.
SA must have 6 teams. All of SA rugby should unite behind that idea.
Otherwise this SARFU decision will always stink of political dirt.
15 May 2012, 20:45 pm
SARFU seem content and happy to tear SA rugby apart, and the sad thing is as indicated by so many views here, many are happy to see it happen.
The usual South African tradition of allowing our glorius leaders to drag us to ruin while we clap them on.
Shameful.
15 May 2012, 20:47 pm
@MattP7(MattP7)-109: Let me answer some of your questions – respond to some of your remarks.
1. ‘would be unfair to have the future of the Kings depend on outcome of such a play off. A playoff between one franchise with lots of Supr Rugby experience vs a franchise with none… Not fair.’
So you are admitting the Kings are the weaker team ? So based on performance, there is no merit in their inclusion at this stage ?
2. ‘Lions (and other franchises) have enjoyed the benefits of Super Rugby for many seasons, without ever being faced with a promo/relegation playoff. Why should the Kings be subject to it after just one season.
The teams chosen to play Super rugby was based on their Currie Cup performances right from the beginning. In fact, in 1997 Western Province didn’t play Super rugby because they did not earn a Currie Cup semi-final. So to infer that there has never been a merit system for inclusion in Super rugby is completely incorrect.
And then I follow that up with a question – Who would ever have beaten the Lions in a promotion/relegation match ? Griquas maybe ? Certainly not the Kings.
3. ‘My opinion: bring the Cats back until 2015. After that I’m sure we can have 6 teams again. Kings deserve at least a fair chance.’
Kings deserve nothing. They are being forced in via political interference because of some unsubstantiated nonsense that they are in a key development area. How many developmental, ethnic players do you predict the Kings will field ? They are being shoved down everyone’s throats (including those in New Zealand and Australia that expect to see a strength vs. strength competition). Remembering – this is a team that did not even make the Vodacom Cup semi-finals – losing to the Pumas ? Don’t the Pumas maybe deserve a spot in Super rugby ? What about the Leopards ? They are also from a ‘developmental’ area ?
So – please – lets be honest with each other. There is a politically enforced drive to include the Kings. It probably involves about 80% corruption and 20% good intention. Lets just at least be honest with each other.
And I am not even a Lions supporter. I could care less if the Kings are included – in fact, other than the free points from the bye – my team can earn another 10 points for free when the Kings are included. So – it benefits my team.
15 May 2012, 20:49 pm
@hensopper1(hensopper1)-113: Thats why I am praying and hoping that I will not be South African any more in a few years time. Really – it is one of my biggest wishes.
15 May 2012, 20:53 pm
@hensopper1(hensopper1)-113: Let me also say – the Kings will be a ‘freak show’. People will gather at their TVs and at grounds throughout SA, NZ and Australia to watch the circus act when they get thrashed worse than any team ever in Super rugby.
It will be a absolute no-contest gladiatorial freak show – and the victim will belong to South Africa. I kind of look forward to that part to be honest. It will be the first time I ever support a non-South African team against a South African one.
15 May 2012, 20:57 pm
DUSKY. All the more reason to fight for the Lions. Do you know how big their foreign support base is? Where are you based?
15 May 2012, 21:03 pm
@hensopper1(hensopper1)-117: Norway.
I am no Lions fan. I can assure you of that – but this is nonsense. And unfortunately, reflective of the situation as a whole in South Africa. Rotten to the absolute core unfortunately.
Have you heard that they need to start roadworks on the N1 again for about a 17km section, because the company that tendered was awarded the contract because of their BEE credentials which were great. Unfortunately they had no clue what they were doing !
Like a tree that has been eaten out from the inside by greedy termites. It still looks like a tree from the outside, but the first decent storm wind that hits it – it will fall over. Timbeeeerrrrrr…….
15 May 2012, 21:32 pm
Dusky, i would agree with you, but we would just both be wrong.
15 May 2012, 21:33 pm
oh poor Dusky, still moaning about the country he despises
oh poor dusky!
It’s amazing that everyone all of a sudden is AWARE of what the effects of NOT playing super rugby will be on the Lions yet were QUIET & content to see the South Eastern Cape be excluded in a corrupt way because then – 2006 – it benefitted
THEM!!!
All that is required for evil to prosper is for good people to do nothing!
All these other unions stood by and watched SARU renege on valid legal contracts to allow the Spears to play Currie Cup in 2006 & Super Rugby in 2007.
Now the shoe is on the other foot and all we hear is ‘entitlement this entitlement that’ and the ‘good of SA Rugby’. Where were all these noble notions when Oregan Hoskins was using R30 million of SARU money to RIP the Spears apart???!!
I don’t wish the Lions & their fans any ill will but i HATE the blatant hypocrisy on display here!
15 May 2012, 21:45 pm
@Dusky(Dusky)-114:
You need to get your facts right. Prior to the S12, it was a provincial competition between the top provinces from each country based on their standing in their local competitions.
The S12 became a regional competition, with Louis Luyt determining the composition of the regional franchises. Geography, not performance was the determining factor.
The S14 franchise composition was based on bids from the SA CC provinces who decided who they wanted to partner with and the Spears lost out to the Cheetahs based on various factors decided by Price Waterhouse, not SARU.
15 May 2012, 22:17 pm
@roobarb2(roobarb2)-101: Oh yes, he was the same age when WP/ Stormers last won the Currie Cup.
15 May 2012, 22:30 pm
@Horings(Horings)-122: his kids will his age the next time they win the Super (67?)
15 May 2012, 22:48 pm
Transformation.
I feel for your obvious anger. But it is the very vindictive nature that insists on smashing existing institutions in order t create new ones. You genuinly believe that the only way to achieve your aim of a Southern Cape franchise is to destroy something else.
It is much easier to break things than to build them.
What are going to say when EVERYTHING IS BROKEN?
If the absurd situation occurs that the lions are delegated to the dustbin of history for the Kings to come into existence, you will be happy. You obviously do not give a twig about SA rugby. We part ways in that respect and I will have to agree to disagree.
15 May 2012, 22:50 pm
Dusky
Good luck mate. Have been an economic refugee for years and have settled in the cold north now.
15 May 2012, 23:20 pm
I am a fence sitter on this Kings inclusion issue…..One half of me is looking forward to see them play in 2013….the other half is sad to see the expected demise of the Lions 2013……What I do not understand is the ineptness of Saru…. ..they lack the negotiation skills…business acumen and fortitude to garnish a trusting relationship with their partners in Sanzar…. If they had a long term strategy with regards to including the Kings and keeping the five other franchises playing in Super Rugby….. they could of achieved this….it was not impossible. This assuming they could have six franchises without doing the legwork or homework in getting their Sanzar partners on side with the deal was pisss poor in my opinion. From some of the posts I have read on here….there are some out there who could do a far better job than the lot Governing the game in South Africa.
15 May 2012, 23:36 pm
@Te Rangatira(Te Rangatira)-126: South Africans are very embarrassed of their inept and narrow-minded rugby administrators, believe me.
I just cannot understand how or why these self serving people are appointed to these positions when clearly they do not have a modicum of intelligence, foresight, commercial awareness or indeed the best interests of South African rugby at heart.
16 May 2012, 01:30 am
Reality is in one of PA post upstair, it is re-arranging the deck chairs. It is a simple equation really, 6 does not go into 5 which leaves us with one team losing out. End of the day it is not about the Kings getting a chance but about the Lions missing out, what benefit is there in one team getting a forward push at the detriment of another?
Keep in mind the deal is to entranch the Kings for at least 2 years, again, what benefit is there in that for the team missing out?
Anyway, I do note a new trent being set by the spin doctors moving away from a “Cats’ merger like it is a given fact and more about HO having to be in Jhb! The Cats idea was wrong the first time around and nothing has changed to make it right or better this time around. It is very simple, as a staunch Cheetah supporter I had zero affinity for the Cats even though I attended most of the home games in Bloemfontein. Even when they were winning I felt little for them. Mucking around with the Cheetahs into some hybrib team will have the same effect this time around. It is dead in the water from a supporters point of view.
16 May 2012, 01:34 am
@Te Rangatira(Te Rangatira)-126:
Hehehe TR, this is the same saru who could not move quickly enough to get rid of a World Cup winning coach just to replace him with PDivvie. Yes, they truely have only the very best for SA rugby at heart!
Ultimately it is us, the supporters paying the price for their ineptness, ineptness that has been going on for a very, very long time.
16 May 2012, 06:54 am
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-127: @Slartibartfast(Slartibartfast)-129:
There everywhere, these hopeless administrators……..stuffing up everyone’s lives
with their blame it on the other person attitude…..they need to get a real job.
16 May 2012, 08:48 am
@hensopper1(hensopper1)-124: “But it is the very vindictive nature that insists on smashing existing institutions in order to create new ones” – no you are seriously misguided. i am not angry and i don’t want the Lions destroyed. the issue here is, when the spears were cast aside from super rugby none of the other unions affiliated with SARU said “whoa SARU stop, what you are doing is wrong, corrupt and will definitely destroy the South Eastern Cape and thus not good for SA Rugby”
they kept quiet and carried on like it was business as usual, none of them thought there would be a day where the shoe is on the other foot!
what is good for the goose, SURELY, is good for the gander hehehehe
16 May 2012, 12:56 pm
Those in favor of playoffs: On what basis do you suppose the Kings then sign up players for their 1st Super Rugby season? You honestly think the players will signup and put their careers on the line if them playing Super Rugby depends on the outcome of a play off match?
Remember the EP Kings team that played Vodacom Cup is NOT the Southern Kings team that will play next year. So what team would be playing in the playoffs? Many of the players that the Kings will contract are not even at the Kings yet, so how will you have a playoff in any case?
For those comments regarding chances of Griquas beating the Lions better than the Kings chances – dude, Southern Kings is a franchise. Griquas is a province and already part of a franchise (Cheetahs). So what exactly is your point?
I hear your point regarding WP being denied a spot (same happened to EP after their first season in Super Rugby in the 90s). But those are provinces, I cant remember any of the Franchises ever being involved in a play off match for a spot in Super Rugby.
I feel for the Lions, they are actually my “2nd team”. The Southern Kings are yet to play a single Super Rugby match, so at least give them that chance before writing them off.
16 May 2012, 13:09 pm
@MattP7(MattP7)-132: If that been so then would SARU purchase 50% of the Lions and the leopards to keep them afloat, you said what is good for the goose is good for the gander.If my mind is cast back to the annual report the EP rugby union had a loss of 36 million two years back.
The Lions/Transvaal were always the butt of SARU/SARFU except when King louis was in charge, Transvaal had no way of drawing players from any army camp, there were none in their area. Blue Bulls and Free state had ample people to choose from and they were put in certain camps to play rugby. Natal and EP bulldogs had the same problem. the Soapie continues and Humpty dumpty is still running SARU.
16 May 2012, 13:12 pm
@MattP7(MattP7)-132: The comment was for Transformation !
16 May 2012, 13:18 pm
CATS ARE NOT A REALISTIC OPTION……… That would be punishing 2 teams and only one team is under threat of relegation.
If I were a Lion supporter I would go down fighting, just in my nature.
16 May 2012, 16:52 pm
@UMKHONTO – 133 EPRU made a loss yes. Think you missed a decimal though, it was to the tune of R3mill. Not 36. That should change though when television rights and other revenue starts coming in.
Remember when you comment to include Pumas, Leopard and Golden Lions as the Lions unions. I agree SARU needs to ensure that these unions stay afloat as you put it. South African rugby cannot afford any of their unions going under. We often talk about the wealth of talent that comes from the EC and the FS. Thats true, but I also dont forget about the contribution that other unions make.
16 May 2012, 17:07 pm
@umkhonto(umkhonto)-134: R36 million??? where did you read that?
what kevin de klerk is trying to do is what cheeky and anele have been doing for the past 4 years!
EPRU gets unqualified audit – first in 7 years
2010/05/04
Sbongile Dimbaza
THE Eastern Province Rugby Union has received an unqualified audit report – the first in seven years.
EPRU president Cheeky Watson said this augured well for plans to ensure the union became attractive to sponsors.
“It’s down to good teamwork that we have achieved this. The union’s books have been in the red for a long time and our management strategy has paid off.”
He said turning things around in rugby was never an easy business, but what had been achieved was a reflection of pure determination on the part of the management.
Watson said this new development would give comfort to potential sponsors of the EPRU.
Part of the union’s plan is to hire an experienced coach, but Watson said talks were still at a sensitive stage.
New players are being sought to inject new blood into the team.
“We need to ensure we build on this achievement, because it’s going to have an impact on clubs and sub-unions.”
The union has been in the doldrums over the past few years.
During former EPRU boss Phillip Joseph’s tenure, he was alleged to have defrauded the National Lottery Board of R414 568.
It was discovered that some money had gone missing from sponsors and had been deposited into some employees’ personal accounts.
The police anti-corruption unit – formerly known as the Scorpions – was called in to investigate the possible fraud charges.
16 May 2012, 20:59 pm
Lions must have some form of legal recourse. I wouldn’t take this lying down if I were them.
16 May 2012, 21:10 pm
@Dusky. I’m sure they wont take it lying down. Neither will the Kings if they are to loose out yet again, which I seriously doubt will happen. Problem is sentiment towards Lions is changing due to their continued poor performances, so they are loosing a lot of the public support they enjoyed previously.
And let’s not forget the franchise licenses are up for renewal end of 2012…
17 May 2012, 10:14 am
@Dusky(Dusky)-138: The Lions can not really go the legal route, you cannot take your employer to court and still work for him. The Lions will have to bite the bullet and think out the box, and the Kings are almost like your employers family. We as Lions fans can take it to the next level, wear your Lions jersey to the FNB test match. Will I support the Kings when they play ANZAC teams– NEVER — I will celebrate every point scored against them and mourn every point they score.
17 May 2012, 10:25 am
@umkhonto(umkhonto)-140: f(cuking traitor!
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