Lions want relegation play-offs
15 May 2012
Lions president Kevin de Klerk says Saru’s proposal of automatic relegation isn’t the fairest way to accommodate the Kings next season.
Saru dropped a bomb on Friday when it confirmed its plan for the last-placed team on the SA conference log to make way for the Kings in 2013. As it stands, the Lions will fall out.
However, this decision is not final. The South African franchises asked for time to discuss an alternative way forward, and they will get their opportunity to negotiate a different solution at a meeting with Saru this Thursday. A final decision will then be made following further meetings with the Saru executive committee on 24 May and the Saru general council on 13 July.
So what is expected to happen at Thursday’s gathering? With the Lions in the hot seat, De Klerk hopes a fair decision can be made.
‘I’m expecting the right outcome,’ De Klerk told keo.co.za. ‘We were one of the unions that voted for the Kings to play Super Rugby, but a solution on how they would be accommodated was never made. We were expecting a “Super 16″ next year. It was never agreed that one of the current franchises would have to fall out of Super Rugby.
‘I think the ideal solution would be having promotion-relegation play-offs. Automatic relegation would have drastic consequences for the relegated franchise [in terms of financial and player loss].’
De Klerk also expressed his disappointment in the delay of a final decision being made, but added that he understood Saru’s difficult position.
‘With all our injuries this season, the fact that we don’t know what’s going to happen does create a lot of pressure. But Saru is also stuck between a rock and a hard place. It made promises to Eastern Province long before I was president of the Lions. I just hope a fair decision can be made.’
Last week, John Mitchell told this site that an amalgamation between the Lions and Cheetahs would be a suitable solution. He believed this would create a team with enough quality depth to challenge for the Super Rugby title. However, De Klerk said the Lions were not backing this initiative.
‘John said that in a personal capacity,’ said De Klerk. ‘I’m not saying a merger is a possible solution, and I’m not saying it isn’t one either. But it’s not a plan that the Lions are considering at the moment.’
By Gareth Duncan
141 Comments
15 May 2012, 07:25 am
hahaha
imagine if the lions lose
they should play a best of three.
15 May 2012, 07:30 am
I don’t have a problem with a relegation play-off match.
I have a problem with how the other participant in said match is selected. Especially if the other participant can’t win the Vodacom Cup, let alone the Currie Cup B division.
15 May 2012, 07:34 am
Look, is says it right there…
‘We were one of the unions that voted for the Kings to play Super Rugby, but a solution on how they would be accommodated was never made…
See, in Kevin’s own words, we are going to court!
15 May 2012, 07:34 am
Kevin, I am one of the greatest Lion’s supporters you will ever encounter. But… we have had how many seasons to get this right?
Sorry, but, we are farting against thunder whilst constipated.
15 May 2012, 07:40 am
Also if they were to merge with the Cheetahs, they should be based in Bloem.
15 May 2012, 07:52 am
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-2: Hear, hear.
@RedCard(RedCard)-5: Why?
15 May 2012, 07:57 am
It would be sad that a union with the history of the Lions are not allowed to take part in Super Rugby but we brought this mostly on ourselves
15 May 2012, 07:58 am
you’ve gotta feel bad for the mulberry bush…
15 May 2012, 07:59 am
Bye Bye Lions – time for a new franchise in JHB run by new management , new stadium , new spirit – time for change it is disgraceful that this team represents jhb
15 May 2012, 08:04 am
@walter van transvaal.co.za(walter)-7:
Nee man Walter, don’t fall for the propoganda. There is zero benefit in replacing the Lions with the Kings at this stage. Don’t fall for the brainwashing, don’t be the frog in the pot, keep on fighting…this is far from over.
15 May 2012, 08:07 am
@stew(stew)-9:
yip and call them the Kings
15 May 2012, 08:07 am
The Lazy Lions have done nothing to deserve a play-off. The Queens have done nothing to deserve automatic relegation. Both teams should be playing in the Vodacom Cup next year.
That IS fair.
15 May 2012, 08:26 am
@RedCard(RedCard)-5:
true.
@walter van transvaal.co.za(walter)-7:
true.
15 May 2012, 08:36 am
I say just relegate those lazy Lions. They have embarrassed me for too long!
Give the Kings a chance, they want to play superrugby unlike the Leeusers.
As for those broederbond pricks who farked up my team … Fark all of you. Burn in hell and get the hell out of my team.
15 May 2012, 08:37 am
Kings will never accept this. Their argument is that they need to contract players good enough to play SR and that can only happen with a guarantee. They are negotiating with top players at present who will only consider their offers if a S15 place is guaranteed. Kings will never be able to win a promorelegation game without getting the players they need and having had time in S15 to build their systems. Kevin knows this and should be smart enough to appreciate this and work on other solutions. I hope this is not the only plan the Lions have because then I can tell them now it will get the Lions nowhere.
15 May 2012, 08:38 am
They can form the Cats and rotate home venues. One year be based in Bloem with 6 games in Free State and 2 in Joburg. Next year vice versa.
15 May 2012, 08:39 am
Bring on the Wildcats!!!
15 May 2012, 08:40 am
Kat is 100% correct. The whole Kings premise is based on them not being a CC fed team, with the majority of players being other experienced players from heavensknowswhere. So without the guaranteed inclusion they won’t get sponsorship and will not be able to field a team that will beat the Lions (as badly as they are playing).
Kevin knows this, duh.
15 May 2012, 08:40 am
Kevin, please! We have to look this thing in the eye and come with realistic solutions considering realities (and not what we hope for).
15 May 2012, 08:44 am
@Slartibartfast(Slartibartfast)-10:
What propaganda would that be? As it stands the Kings are in and we are out…or am I missing something?
15 May 2012, 08:44 am
THE KINGS ARE IN WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT! They have legal and political backing. Stop mucking around GLRU. Stop trying to get this not to happen. Do what is required. There are options but you will have to be willing to open up to them. Put the pride and emotion aside and get cool headed about this.
15 May 2012, 08:45 am
@Kat(Katsesnor)-15:
Ahh but you see the problem for any future promotion/relagation matches? This is a f-up of note all nicely tied with a bow care of saru!
15 May 2012, 08:48 am
@Sasuke(Sasuke)-16:
Nope, can’t work as you will never build a solid supporter base doing that.
@walter van transvaal.co.za(walter)-20:
Well keo and his sidekicks have been telling us for months now that is the case, so it must be true? Nah Walter, still a long time before this is settled but the spin merchants would like you to think otherwise. Telling you, don’t give up just yet.
15 May 2012, 08:51 am
I get very despondent when I hear all this fighting talk from the Lions corner. If we’re going to fight the Kings’ inclusion the Lions will kill itself in every way that matters. Let go, and let’s move on. Please!
15 May 2012, 08:59 am
@Kat(Katsesnor)-21: the only option is to accept automatic relegation. Everyone at that union must go, resign without golden handshakes. Then from the ruins rebuild towards superrugby in 2016.
15 May 2012, 08:59 am
Lions cannot say they did not get a fair chance to prevent this from happening. This Spears/Kings thing have been coming for ages and in that time the Lions made zero progress in SR. Yes, there are a lot of things not right with Kings getting automatic inclusion through political shenanigans, but what is is what is now. Let’s win friends and influence people now Kevin.
15 May 2012, 09:03 am
To stand in the middle of the road and scream and make fists at a fast approaching truck is brave, but stupid. Rather let the truck go past and then chase and overtake it with a bigger faster one.
15 May 2012, 09:06 am
@RL(RL)-14:
@RL(RL)-25:
now that…. is how to rebuild a phoenix.
i like it.
15 May 2012, 09:15 am
De Klerk should really seriously start to consider a merger with the Cheetahs!!!! It could be very beneficial for the franchise… IF SARU splits the income 6 ways…They wont lose out financially; theyll keep players; stay competitive in the currie cup etc etc.
Why not just have a backup plan????? If they get relegated, then what?????? Just feel sorry for themselves? They are in this mess thanks to past bad administration, weak and shortsighted leadership!!!
If this wally isnt going to plan ahead he wont be much better than the previous clowns who ran the show.
Stop complaining about what is fair. Expect the worst and let your franchise know that you plan to have some control over the situation. At this point he sound pathetic !
15 May 2012, 09:17 am
What’s that saying again?
Oh yes… re-arranging deck chairs.
15 May 2012, 09:19 am
@Jeez(Jeez)-29:
its talk like that which makes it all a prime example of why they should be relegated.
classic head in the sand stuff.
15 May 2012, 09:19 am
And for heavens sake if they merge, why not just stay away form any ‘Cat’ in the name…. Why not start with something totally new!!!!!!!!??? A fresh start would make fans a bit more optimistic!!!
15 May 2012, 09:22 am
The Cats will be back at the end of all this.
Anybody want to bet against me??
15 May 2012, 09:26 am
Perhaps de Klerk is hoping SARU will have the 5 franchises play-off for the 4 positions, it would be unfair to expect the Kings to play-off before they get their team in place. Personally, I think the Lions are going to be stuck out in the cold by the other franchises,,, I say give the Kings a go,, they cannot be worse than the current rubbish
15 May 2012, 09:26 am
@Jeez(Jeez)-32:
northern phoenix?
15 May 2012, 09:27 am
Can anyone explain to my why De Klerk voted for the Kings’ inclusion, knowing it would come to this?
Why did EVERYONE vote in favour of the Kings? Something funny went on in that meeting.
15 May 2012, 09:28 am
@Jeez(Jeez)-32: Fck that. I’ve registered my name and icon here as a trademark.
15 May 2012, 09:29 am
the @zoo cleaner(zoo cleaner)-33:
Or the Rhinos ; the Ostriches; the (game) Rangers; the Vlakvarke; The Dunes; The roses (Rose stad) The Honey badgers; The Fish eagles
15 May 2012, 09:29 am
@RL(RL)-14: manie reyneke won’t like that comment!
15 May 2012, 09:30 am
@>^..^< katman(katman)-36:
Have you ever signed an employment contract in which there were clauses which forced you to become a member of a specific medical aid, or some provident fund, restrained of trade etc?
15 May 2012, 09:31 am
@>^..^< katman(katman)-36:
Cheeky probably held them all at gun point with Luke puking in the corner…
15 May 2012, 09:34 am
@houston, we have a problem…(i_love_u_bakkiesbotha)-35:
Not the best name as a plural… Northern Phoenixes??
15 May 2012, 09:36 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-40: This is hardly the same as being coerced into joining Discovery. What threat could SARU hold over the unions for opposing the Kings move?
15 May 2012, 09:37 am
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-2: Thats a load of **** , first off we all know the Super rugby team will differ from the current team , secondly the Stormers played Super rugby for many years now , we contested a final , semi and even hosted one or two if I remember correctly , check how many Vodacom Cup titles we have or CC the last 10 years.
Why dont you guys see that the teams will not be the same ? How is that so difficult to understand ? And lastly not too long ago your team lost every single match in the comp , they came dead last for something like 2-3 seasons (yes the bulls not the lions) and yet look where they are today ! Howcome they were afforded the luxury of automated participation back then ? They could have made way for EP who if you guys remember actually played Super rugby in 1998/99 (not sure which year) when WP dropped out.
I bet if Griquas was the team as oppose to the Kings then a lot more people would be okay with it ! So Sad !
15 May 2012, 09:38 am
@Jeez(Jeez)-32: The rhinos !
15 May 2012, 09:40 am
@>^..^< katman(katman)-43:
Just as your employer has some arrangement with Discovery or some investment company SARU has an agreement with the Kings or the Eastern Cape or more importantly, the government.
SA Rugby has committed itself to get the region into Super Rugby (in return they got backing from government to bid for the RWC).
It is not a vote of ‘do we want them in’ it was a vote of ‘they are in so let’s find a way to accommodate them’.
The unions, as members of SARU, has no say in this – it is an executive decision to have the Kings as part of Super Rugby. Now its about finding the mechanism to include them.
15 May 2012, 09:43 am
@Great White Shark(Predawn)-12: No that is not fair , after years of not deserving it suddenly no team should play in the super comp ? The kings at least deserve that chance to prove they can play with the bug boys.
Howcome now all of a sudden does no-one deserve to play at super rugby level ? Why not the last 10 or so odd years when the lions came last or second last ?
You guys remind of the days when we were younger and played cricket , there was this laaitie that when he was out he would go home with his bat and ball so no-one else can play. That’s how childish this is !
15 May 2012, 09:47 am
@>^..^< katman(katman)-37: brian van zyl said they were put under pressure by stakeholders, sponsors etc.
15 May 2012, 09:49 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-46: If that were the case, there wouldn’t be the need for any kind of vote. Yet there was this yes/no referendum in which all the participants willingly voted yes. I’m convinced there was more at play than simply rubberstamping a government decision.
15 May 2012, 09:55 am
@sparticus(sparticus)-47:
This has nothing to do with fairness – I said this before, today its the Lions in the firing line, tomorrow its your team you support.
What if all this came around in 2001, 2002? Can you imagine how the Bulls fans would bleat?
A rugby solution needs to be found – this promotion/relegation rubbish is not a rugby solution. Substituting the Lions for the Kings in a whim who will also only win 25% of their games (if we consider franchises like the Force and Rebels) on average is also not a solution.
The Kings deserve a place in Super Rugby, they deserve a level playing field in South African rugby but where is the planning? Where is due diligence on the impact on all unions in SA Rugby if any one solution or mechanism is implemented?
SA Rugby has been sitting with this for a decade, 10 years to plan and implement, and now they look for a quick-fix solution over a course of three meetings from now until June.
People making arguments for or against the Kings, Lions, Cheetahs or any franchise is barking up the wrong tree here.
That is treating the symptoms. Nothing more.
15 May 2012, 09:56 am
@sparticus(sparticus)-45:
The ‘Save the Rhinos !!!’
15 May 2012, 09:57 am
Logic got thrown out of the window a long time ago, but logically speaking, if the government wants to bring rugby to a new area, as in the Eastern Cape. Then it should try and do its best to not take it away from another area. Geographically in South African terms of distance, the Bulls and the Lions are more or less in the same place, so the Bulls should really just absorb the Lions for Super rugby and then release them for Currie cup. That way no area is totally deprived of top flight rugby, but a new one has gained it.
The whole thing is a total shambles and nobody will be satisfied with whatever the outcome ends up being now.
15 May 2012, 09:58 am
@>^..^< katman(katman)-49:
Well of course dude.
They were given a ballot paper with only one box to tick next to the ‘Yes’
15 May 2012, 09:59 am
i like kevin de klerk, everything wrong with the lions happened before his time, so it’s not his fault!
it is all “legacy issues”
15 May 2012, 10:08 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-50: Pissant I dont disagree in fact I agree 100%. The problem is now either the Kings or Lions (due to their last position) must suffer , I don’t really think its fair for the lions to leave either but its more unfair not to give the kings a shot.
The lions at least had an opportunity and the Kings deserve one too. I agree that SARU is too blame but there is nothing really anyone can do to fix what they effed up.
If it was up too me I would have expand the CC and played the Kings in it. This would have given them a chance to establish themselves and get sponsors on board over the years. Then by year 4-5 the CC would serve as a promotion/relegation comp for Super Rugby.
I don’t understand why they took so long to play CC rugby and also I don’t understand why they could not have played in the premier div from the start. They have the infrastructure and the lure of possible Super 15 exposure would have attacked a lot of fringe players.
Many people say we dont have the amount of players to play 4-5 teams in Super rugby , I reckon we have more than enough , we just need to get them exposed !
15 May 2012, 10:08 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-50: Very well said, Sir, particularly your first & last paragraphs.
15 May 2012, 10:21 am
Nice one Keo! You post a fair article and then spread the propaganda in the comments through fictional bloggers. Just don’t overdo it, you can’t have more bloggers than actual lions supporters;)
15 May 2012, 10:45 am
The only real solution would be to actually change the format of the competition completely. My proposed format, conference stage (Currie Cup, New Zealand Cup), top qualifiers go into Top League, and other teams go into a lower league. Play the league stages; Winner of each league gets a trophy. Go into Knock out phase, the four teams from the top league gets home-ground advantage, but overall any time can take the overall title.
15 May 2012, 11:12 am
@Jeez(Jeez)-38:
Whatever name they pick, I believe its going to happen.
Probably be based in JHB too.
There is no logical way out of this mess other than to do it again. Hopefully better this time around.
15 May 2012, 11:25 am
@kingcorn(kingcorn)-58:
New structure should have the super rug comp split into 2 pools with 16 teams. The result:
shorter season enabling currie cup to be played;
less fatigue and injury;
more emphasis on test rugby;
after shorter super rugby comp a mini trinations 7s/10s comp can be introduced (played in a 2 month window)- to fill up the broadcasting time lost due to a shorter super rugby season.It can even involve Japanese, US, Argentina clubs etc.
Less is more….
15 May 2012, 11:29 am
@stew(stew)-9: And you base your comment on what, they are the Currie cup champions.
15 May 2012, 11:31 am
@zoo cleaner(zoo cleaner)-59:
I really hope it happens… But it would make more sense if they were based in Bloem… The Cheetahs should make up the bulk of the squad. The best Lions will provide decent depth for a change and form part of the starting lineup…The rest of the Lions players will stay in Jozi and play Vodacom cup as backup. It would make sense to give an x amount of players a contract to relocate to bloem for the super rugby season, unless their homegames will be played in Jozi and Bloem…
15 May 2012, 11:33 am
@Kat(Katsesnor)-24: Kat have you bought your Kings jersey yet?
15 May 2012, 11:36 am
Kdk voted with the hope that his cc champs would not be wooden spoonists. I say go the Blions!
15 May 2012, 11:40 am
Btw the main decision maker in this whole saga is Regan… Some deals were struck… Slappes has some info that Keo would love to publish
15 May 2012, 11:46 am
@Wanderer(Wanderer)-63: Don’t have to. Getting a signed one from Mark.
15 May 2012, 11:48 am
@Jeez(Jeez)-62:
No hope for FSS in my opinion, even though the Cheetahs are a better side.
Its gotta be JHB – Ellis Park is a bigger money-spinner than FSS. Even if the after party is better in Bloem, a good team will get more bums on seats in JHB.
Money will talk in this equation.
15 May 2012, 11:48 am
imagine for a second the intensity of such a relegation game. everything on the lion, the wounded warrior against the young upstart, old vs new, cue dramatic music and low angle slow-mo shots….
then slap yourself, have some coffee and get back to reality. the Lions are being screwed big time and no mistake, but its only the supporters i feel sorry for. their administration has been ******** the poor lions supporters for almost a decade now.
i’m talking about the die-hards who would traipse to the stadium, or settle in front of their TV, week after week, in a brave display of optimism over realism. they deserve better, their union deserves a swift kick in the unmentionables.
as far as the Kings go, sure they deserve a spot, and maybe some of the opposition to a strong Eastern Cape franchise is that it may prevent the easy pickings of the continious flow of talent from this area to the other franchises. thats not really the point though. how many good fringe players are benching at the moment, and how much would some solid gametime benefit SA rugby depth? franchises could loan players to the Kings, and the Kings could get some big signings of their own. Sponsors will be attracted, and you can be sure of that. there is a large customer base in the Eastern Cape.
is this the best way of doing it? hell no.
will the Kings get bums in seats? hell yes.
will they be more abjectly diabolical than the Lions? Not unless they are allowed to prop up the bottom of the log for a decade or so.
SARU have screwed the pooch yet again with this fiasco and the question begs, how many lives does that does Hoskins cat have left?
15 May 2012, 11:49 am
Relegate them. I’ve had enough of these ******* throwing their cr@p around.
If it’s the end of Lions rugby, so be it. There is a very well run union less than 50kms away in Pretoria
15 May 2012, 12:06 pm
Thought so now stop bad mouthing the Lions jy is nog erger as Puke.
15 May 2012, 12:09 pm
@seamus(seamus)-69: Ok Seamus so when the Sharks or the Stormers go through some lean years we close those unions as well. your logic sucks.
15 May 2012, 12:15 pm
@Wanderer(Wanderer)-70: Who are you talking to Wanderer?
15 May 2012, 12:21 pm
@Wanderer(Wanderer)-71:
‘some lean years’ more like all of the years after the cats split up! They should have been planning a merger a long time ago… Now that their backs are against the wall they are looking for alternatives to save their franchise. To plan ahead is just a basic administrative duty, for the good of your business, but the Lions dont seem to understand this basic concept…!
15 May 2012, 12:23 pm
@Kat(Katsesnor)-72: to you Kat, I see you have changed your colours mighty quick.
I agree that the Lions should sit out for 1 year and let the players that want to leave go.Start fresh, but what gets me boiling is the attitude of completely killing the union as some of you suggest. I am sure, as Sparticus asked earlier, what if it was one of the other unions?
This decision is basicly moving the rugby problems from the EC to GP.
I say stuff you I will not roll over and take it like you do, LIONS 4 LIFE.
15 May 2012, 12:25 pm
@Jeez(Jeez)-73: Yes Jeez, but to kill the union instead of helping it. remember this is how the problems started in the once proud EP.
15 May 2012, 12:33 pm
Wanderer, I agree that the union should survive, the Lions have always been there or therebouts in the CC, but the Lions Super Franchise has been a failure and needs a serious rethink.
If it was any other business enterprise they would have liquidated 5 years ago.
15 May 2012, 12:38 pm
@Wanderer(Wanderer)-74: Oh okay. Thought so.
I stand amazed that when I offer Lions supporters alternatives considering reality that I am accused of “changing my colours”, “ganging up with Keo”, or “supporting the Kings”. It is exactly this closed-mindedness and highly charged emotional thinking that created the Lions’ problems in the first place. People treat a rugby union like it is a religion and I am the devil for asking questions and offering ideas that don’t sit well with them. I am now also accused of not being a loyal passionate supporter by guys that have done sweet blue f-all for the cause over the years (except throw stones every now-and-then). Sad to see rugby matters dealt with in such an unsophisticated manner. One either wears the horns or get killed it seems.
15 May 2012, 12:50 pm
I don’t think he was suggesting that the kings needed to win a relegation battle.
The qualifying criteria seems to be based on log position for s15 2012. if that really is the case, then when is it announced? Surely not only once the season is halfway through? Anyway, the lions are 13 points behind the cheetahs, who have a bye up their sleeve too. so they need to win ~4 more games than the cheetahs to the close. Going to be almost impossible – they do have the force away and rebels at home to target.
LIONS to play:reds, force,sharks,stormers,rebels,bulls
CHEETAHS to play:sharks,waratahs,bye,bulls,stormers,sharks
head to head, so far cheetahs won in bloem, lions in jhb(just).
What options do they have?
* Relegation matches between teams 4,5 on the log?
* Merger with Lions/Cheetahs?
problem is, that the kings will be given more than a year. How would the lions force their way back in to the S15? What if the Lions win the currie cup again in 2012?
A big part of me doesn’t really care. No one goes to either lions or cheetahs games, no matter who’s winning.
15 May 2012, 12:50 pm
@roobarb2(roobarb2)-76: Thank you Roobar, the issue is about our pride. Believe me we are just as upset about the mediocrety of our teams performance, but I will not change my loyalty.
The misconception about the Stadium being so unsafe, I have been there 5 times this year and I have never picked up a problem. I have had more problems at Loftus than at Coke park.
The problem can be solved by playing a double tier competition with 8 teams and then having the super league, but I guess this means less money for some unions and they wont help.
I still advocate strengthen your school and club rugby, outlaw the contracting of school boys to unions, and bring in a player pool system. then we will have a more competitive and transformed rugby system.
SARU must set up open academies at all the unions, because at the moment the academies are only for a previliged few.
15 May 2012, 12:53 pm
Ha Ha! Brilliant!
15 May 2012, 12:54 pm
I’ve put two alternatives on the table: (1) Amlin Challenge in Europe; and (2) “Wildcats”. I have written to the union and have spoken to Kevin. I have used every forum available to me to fight the Lions cause (for years). But I’m the traitor according to come-late always-in-hiding Lions fans. No alternatives are offered to help with the selection of potential solutions. God forbid that you do thát. It is far more “passionate” to throw stones, toy-toy at Ellis Park, and demand that this and that be done.
15 May 2012, 12:55 pm
@Kat(Katsesnor)-77: Kat jumping to conclusions again, your solution is to merge with the Cheetahs and form the Wildcats, do you know there is a wildcat registered club on the West Rand.
O yes I do my bit for rugby development as I coach junior rugby so do not tell me I did nothing for my union.
15 May 2012, 12:57 pm
@Wanderer(Wanderer)-82: Wildcat team on the West Rand standing in the way of this merger … wow!
15 May 2012, 12:57 pm
i find it hard to swallow that a die hard, proud lions supporter will talk of Coke park.
just sayin.
15 May 2012, 12:58 pm
why should the Cheetahs be punished for the Lions failure by being forced to merge?
15 May 2012, 12:59 pm
@Kat(Katsesnor)-83: Shows your knowledge of the structure and your attitude! enough said, now fill in your application form and pack for PE. o yes enjoy the weather I hear it gets windy down there.
15 May 2012, 13:03 pm
@roobarb2(roobarb2)-85: It’s about forming a new super franchise with real potential to win the SR title. It is about synergy where the sum is bigger than individual parts. It is about more than just throwing teams together for survival. Get the money allocations right and build a strong franchise with enough depth to challenge for the title even when the injuries hit. The teams can go on on their own and never win the thing – and remain champions – or they can go together and become a true force. My thinking is here: http://www.ruggaworld.com/2012/05/14/way-forward-for-lions/ and here: http://www.wetalkrugby.com/archives/9086
15 May 2012, 13:04 pm
Keo’s current poll is ridiculous. Two useless options. That’s like running a poll that says: My drink of choice is:
[ ] semi-sweet white wine
[ ] runny poo
15 May 2012, 13:07 pm
@Wanderer(Wanderer)-86: Knowledge of structures … so there is a Wildcats club … so what?! If there is a club somewhere in SA using the lions name no-one else at a higher level can use it?
Attitude? What “attitude”?
PE? Why?
You are part of the problem Wanderer, not part of any solutions. It is guys like you that have destroyed that union that I care as much about as anyone calling himself a die-hard Lions supporter.
15 May 2012, 13:10 pm
@roobarb2(roobarb2)-85: Forced?? I think the cheetahs will welcome the option to bolster their squad with quality players from the Lions..Its possible for this to be a win win situation…
15 May 2012, 13:15 pm
@Wanderer(Wanderer)-71: “some lean years?”
They’ve been appalling on the field since the S12 started and even worse in the Admin offices.
15 May 2012, 13:18 pm
yes Jeez, why dont you phone them and ask them. see what they say.
also, while you’re on the phone, ask them how well it ended last time.
and when that new amalgamated team gets relegated again, i supposed the Lions will then have to form a merger with the team being promoted who will then also “welcome the option to bolster their squad with quality players from the Lions..”
if the players have so much quality oozing out of them, explain the last decade plz.
15 May 2012, 13:23 pm
the cheetahs have wthout the same resources and player pool of the Lions consistently punched above their weight. how will combining them with the Lions help them at all?
why not let the Kings have the franchise and let the Kings have the option of “renting” all these quality players i keep hearing of.
Manchester United were relegated out the English Premier League in the 70′s.
Did they try and force a merger with Liverpool?
no, they sorted themselves out and look now.
15 May 2012, 13:33 pm
@roobarb2(roobarb2)-93: Cannot compare Manchester United to Lions situation.
Joburg is now Soweto with white suburbs … a soccer mad city where rugby is on the fringes. Almost the whole of Soweto rugby supporters support the Bulls already.
FS is doing better now but what does the future hold for them? They battled to get a sponsor and Toyota came to their rescue after a long struggle reaching agreement. Grey College is their pillar and Affies beat them over the weekend. What will Bloem look like over ten years with fast changing demographics? Same goes for Potch/Rustenburg and Kimberley?
These areas need to pool resources or die. Way I see it.
15 May 2012, 13:44 pm
so why not give a city like PE a chance? a province where the kids in the townships play rugby because they want to.
on the day of the opening game game of the soccer world cup i was racing to a friends house (in east london) an the game had started, and i drove past 3 black boys in a street playing with a rugby ball.
people who havent been here wont get how deep the love for rugby runs in the black population, and they have a long history too. a deep rooted rugby culture that has conveniently been ignored for many years.
the bulldogs have been **** for years, but the stands are full when they play an the crowd is 75% black.
15 May 2012, 13:44 pm
We are fighting about this only because SARU ******* e d u p.
SARU knew about the Kings when they negotiated the stupid conference system now in place. The idiot that negotiated on our behalf should be shot.
15 May 2012, 13:46 pm
@roobarb2(roobarb2)-95: I’m not saying they shouldn’t get a chance. The Kings are in. Fact. It is now up to others to come up with a solution.
15 May 2012, 13:49 pm
SARU is now leaving it up to the franchises to come up with a solution. SARU should be doing so. All this rubbish could have been prevented. How the hell did SARU agree to the current SupeRugby system when they knew the Kings will have to be accommodated? Rugby clearly is not run by the smartest resources available.
15 May 2012, 13:54 pm
@Kat(Katsesnor)-81: you are no traitor brother. The traitors are those broederbond pricks who call themselves trustees, enriching themselves at the expense of the union. Fark them! They sank the Guma deal because their gravy train existance was in danger. They are ones, along with other broederbond pricks who destroyed Lions rugby for the past 12 years.
The only way out is relegation and for those pricks to die and go to hell.
15 May 2012, 15:07 pm
The Kings Supporters or backers need the Lions to close down as a Union because then it is a lot easier to run the Kings with players who have no alternative than to go to the Kings. If the Lions get sixth of the super purse but do not play I think they could survive but this is not what SARU want’s, they want the headache to dissappear.The fairest way was for SARU to decide how many teams do we need in Super Rugby (not how many are we allowed) and devide the purse equally so that when one of the other franchises falls foul,they still have money to continue to build their team.
The problem for the Lions going to court is that we could be Isolated like cricketSA did to Gauteng cricket when they questioned the IPL contract, but they really got nailed from that day onwards cricket sa lost all sponserships within a year and have still not been able to get the sponserships again. Gauteng cricket gained sponsership and are doing well.
OLD SA rugby and SARU executive have their fingers deep in the Kings pie and SARU is also a 50% shareholder(check their annual report), the Lions are on a hiding to nothing the only place is to boycott all Springbok and Super rugby refuse to watch it on DSTV and see how quickly Supersport has a nice little meeting with SARU.
15 May 2012, 16:28 pm
if only Lions supporters fought this hard with their union over the last decade or so. a DECADE
Kitshoff was probably in grade 3 last time the Lions had ANY impact in the Super Rugby series. semi’s 2001 and Kitshoff was born in 1992
15 May 2012, 16:29 pm
Moronic notion. Clasping at straws.
Relegation should be based on season long performance. One off moer sessions don’t help anyone. The justifications of financial and player exodus for this will still be true for the loser of the “relegation playoff”.
Particiaption in Super Rugby should be based on performance in the Currie Cup alone. The Super Rugby competition should be treated in the same way as the European Champions league for football. Top finishers in the local competition earn the right to play the other big boys.
The Currie Cup should be a seven team competition, with a five year moratorium on adjustment.
Given that the Cheetahs and the Griquas are already happy neighbours and regional partners, they should continue as thus. Their placing in the Currie Cup will determine the colour of the jersey and majority of the participation income.
The Kings should be included in the Currie Cup. No other promises.
The top 5 teams should be allowed to play in the Super Rugby tournament. The 6th team should offer up all of it’s players as draftees for the international competition.
15 May 2012, 16:34 pm
Whatever happens, don’t touch the Cheetahs.
It’s not their fault that the Lions are limp and the Kings don’t exist.
Two things need to be remembered about the Cheetahs:
1) Springbok factory (what good ever came out of Johannesburg?)
2) They know how to play rugby. The Cheetahs are everyone’s 1st or second favourite team. They know how to pass. They know how to run and they know how to score tries. For pure entertainment value, anyone daring to poison them with the Lions curse should be necklaced.
15 May 2012, 18:07 pm
@YoMama(YoMama)-103:
Fully agree.
Plus their management has stepped up to the plate with creative changes to team pattern and recruitment.
Dont bring Louis Luyt curse to Bloem
15 May 2012, 18:14 pm
Go the Wild Meercats!
15 May 2012, 18:45 pm
The solution is much simpler than that.
Forget promotion/relegation matches, teams being forced out or any type of stupid ****.
Let the unions do what they have been doing for a 100 years and ensure the Currie Cup remains the best local competition.
De-franchise unions completely from Super Rugby, award franchises to independent groups/companies/organisations/consortiums based on a set criteria of standards.
Make 5 regions available for 5 franchises and let them tender/approach the city, stadium owner and regional unions for their home base.
SA Rugby employs the coaches, no member of any union may serve on the franchise board (or coach a union team). Franchise has to select a minimum of 25 players from that region and representative unions and open a draft system for the remaining 10 places to be filled (spread the talent).
Regional unions get a guaranteed minimum amount from the broadcast pie paid to them each season plus additional fees dependent on how many players from their union is represented in the union.
If they own their stadiums and the franchise wants to ‘rent’ that they get additional funds.
THAT is a regional franchise based system.
Otherwise drop this whole franchise bullshit, and let the top 5 teams in the CC qualify.
The ‘historical rights’ argument for unions means nothing in Super Rugby which only started in 1996 – that right is reserved for them for Currie Cup only.
15 May 2012, 18:52 pm
It is done and dusted, LIONS are out!!!! and they will get there play off matches in 3 Years time…. so what is the problem?
15 May 2012, 19:22 pm
Yip, the cc champs conquerors of all have learnt a hard lesson – 10yrs too late! Now they wanna moan but seem to forget that they are too blame and their k@k sr legacy will hopefully be erased.
15 May 2012, 19:52 pm
would be unfair to have the future of the Kings depend on outcome of such a play off. A playoff between one franchise with lots of Supr Rugby experience vs a franchise with none… Not fair.
Lions (and other franchises) have enjoyed the benefits of Super Rugby for many seasons, without ever being faced with a promo/relegation playoff. Why should the Kings be subject to it after just one season. My opinion: bring the Cats back until 2015. After that I’m sure we can have 6 teams again. Kings deserve at least a fair chance.
15 May 2012, 20:16 pm
We wait and see and the chips will be down if we are out, so be it but there will be major repercussions. The Lions will survive and in 2015 we will be back and no crying from the rest, another team will be in the same position as the lions without the backing that the Lions will be are able to muster from the largest and richest city in the country. SARU will end up with egg on their face , but if humpty dumpty is running SARU who cares.
15 May 2012, 20:36 pm
The really shameful thing is that, those supporting the Kings inclusion are fighting the relegation/promotion playoff route because they know the Kings stand no chance of beating the Lions.
Its not about 15 wins from 80 games, its not about the worst record in Super rugby, the whole argument hinges around the fact that those supporting the Kings know for a fact that they wont beat the Lions in a promotion/relegation playoff…..
The same team who’s stats they continue to regurgitate on cue as justification for the Kings inclusion. 15 wins from 80 games Vrede says…how many ? ’15 from 80′…..and again, and again, and again….’15 wins from 80 games’…..if the Lions being poor is a reason to exclude them from Super rugby, then the Kings should easily win a promotion/relegation series right ?
This is obvious – because its the obvious solution, yet not supported by the Kings brigade. Why ? Just another case of forcible, counter-merit inclusion in South Africa.
The Kings don’t deserve to play Super rugby, but they feel entitled to. Entitlement….the African justification.
15 May 2012, 20:41 pm
The fact of the matter is that neither side needs to go down. Yes, the Eastern Cape should be developed as a decent pro rugby centre.
No, the Lions should never be relegated.
Almost every argument here is based on the principle that SA can only have 5 teams.
SA must have 6 teams. All of SA rugby should unite behind that idea.
Otherwise this SARFU decision will always stink of political dirt.
15 May 2012, 20:45 pm
SARFU seem content and happy to tear SA rugby apart, and the sad thing is as indicated by so many views here, many are happy to see it happen.
The usual South African tradition of allowing our glorius leaders to drag us to ruin while we clap them on.
Shameful.
15 May 2012, 20:47 pm
@MattP7(MattP7)-109: Let me answer some of your questions – respond to some of your remarks.
1. ‘would be unfair to have the future of the Kings depend on outcome of such a play off. A playoff between one franchise with lots of Supr Rugby experience vs a franchise with none… Not fair.’
So you are admitting the Kings are the weaker team ? So based on performance, there is no merit in their inclusion at this stage ?
2. ‘Lions (and other franchises) have enjoyed the benefits of Super Rugby for many seasons, without ever being faced with a promo/relegation playoff. Why should the Kings be subject to it after just one season.
The teams chosen to play Super rugby was based on their Currie Cup performances right from the beginning. In fact, in 1997 Western Province didn’t play Super rugby because they did not earn a Currie Cup semi-final. So to infer that there has never been a merit system for inclusion in Super rugby is completely incorrect.
And then I follow that up with a question – Who would ever have beaten the Lions in a promotion/relegation match ? Griquas maybe ? Certainly not the Kings.
3. ‘My opinion: bring the Cats back until 2015. After that I’m sure we can have 6 teams again. Kings deserve at least a fair chance.’
Kings deserve nothing. They are being forced in via political interference because of some unsubstantiated nonsense that they are in a key development area. How many developmental, ethnic players do you predict the Kings will field ? They are being shoved down everyone’s throats (including those in New Zealand and Australia that expect to see a strength vs. strength competition). Remembering – this is a team that did not even make the Vodacom Cup semi-finals – losing to the Pumas ? Don’t the Pumas maybe deserve a spot in Super rugby ? What about the Leopards ? They are also from a ‘developmental’ area ?
So – please – lets be honest with each other. There is a politically enforced drive to include the Kings. It probably involves about 80% corruption and 20% good intention. Lets just at least be honest with each other.
And I am not even a Lions supporter. I could care less if the Kings are included – in fact, other than the free points from the bye – my team can earn another 10 points for free when the Kings are included. So – it benefits my team.
15 May 2012, 20:49 pm
@hensopper1(hensopper1)-113: Thats why I am praying and hoping that I will not be South African any more in a few years time. Really – it is one of my biggest wishes.
15 May 2012, 20:53 pm
@hensopper1(hensopper1)-113: Let me also say – the Kings will be a ‘freak show’. People will gather at their TVs and at grounds throughout SA, NZ and Australia to watch the circus act when they get thrashed worse than any team ever in Super rugby.
It will be a absolute no-contest gladiatorial freak show – and the victim will belong to South Africa. I kind of look forward to that part to be honest. It will be the first time I ever support a non-South African team against a South African one.
15 May 2012, 20:57 pm
DUSKY. All the more reason to fight for the Lions. Do you know how big their foreign support base is? Where are you based?
15 May 2012, 21:03 pm
@hensopper1(hensopper1)-117: Norway.
I am no Lions fan. I can assure you of that – but this is nonsense. And unfortunately, reflective of the situation as a whole in South Africa. Rotten to the absolute core unfortunately.
Have you heard that they need to start roadworks on the N1 again for about a 17km section, because the company that tendered was awarded the contract because of their BEE credentials which were great. Unfortunately they had no clue what they were doing !
Like a tree that has been eaten out from the inside by greedy termites. It still looks like a tree from the outside, but the first decent storm wind that hits it – it will fall over. Timbeeeerrrrrr…….
15 May 2012, 21:32 pm
Dusky, i would agree with you, but we would just both be wrong.
15 May 2012, 21:33 pm
oh poor Dusky, still moaning about the country he despises
oh poor dusky!
It’s amazing that everyone all of a sudden is AWARE of what the effects of NOT playing super rugby will be on the Lions yet were QUIET & content to see the South Eastern Cape be excluded in a corrupt way because then – 2006 – it benefitted
THEM!!!
All that is required for evil to prosper is for good people to do nothing!
All these other unions stood by and watched SARU renege on valid legal contracts to allow the Spears to play Currie Cup in 2006 & Super Rugby in 2007.
Now the shoe is on the other foot and all we hear is ‘entitlement this entitlement that’ and the ‘good of SA Rugby’. Where were all these noble notions when Oregan Hoskins was using R30 million of SARU money to RIP the Spears apart???!!
I don’t wish the Lions & their fans any ill will but i HATE the blatant hypocrisy on display here!
15 May 2012, 21:45 pm
@Dusky(Dusky)-114:
You need to get your facts right. Prior to the S12, it was a provincial competition between the top provinces from each country based on their standing in their local competitions.
The S12 became a regional competition, with Louis Luyt determining the composition of the regional franchises. Geography, not performance was the determining factor.
The S14 franchise composition was based on bids from the SA CC provinces who decided who they wanted to partner with and the Spears lost out to the Cheetahs based on various factors decided by Price Waterhouse, not SARU.
15 May 2012, 22:17 pm
@roobarb2(roobarb2)-101: Oh yes, he was the same age when WP/ Stormers last won the Currie Cup.
15 May 2012, 22:30 pm
@Horings(Horings)-122: his kids will his age the next time they win the Super (67?)
15 May 2012, 22:48 pm
Transformation.
I feel for your obvious anger. But it is the very vindictive nature that insists on smashing existing institutions in order t create new ones. You genuinly believe that the only way to achieve your aim of a Southern Cape franchise is to destroy something else.
It is much easier to break things than to build them.
What are going to say when EVERYTHING IS BROKEN?
If the absurd situation occurs that the lions are delegated to the dustbin of history for the Kings to come into existence, you will be happy. You obviously do not give a twig about SA rugby. We part ways in that respect and I will have to agree to disagree.
15 May 2012, 22:50 pm
Dusky
Good luck mate. Have been an economic refugee for years and have settled in the cold north now.
15 May 2012, 23:20 pm
I am a fence sitter on this Kings inclusion issue…..One half of me is looking forward to see them play in 2013….the other half is sad to see the expected demise of the Lions 2013……What I do not understand is the ineptness of Saru…. ..they lack the negotiation skills…business acumen and fortitude to garnish a trusting relationship with their partners in Sanzar…. If they had a long term strategy with regards to including the Kings and keeping the five other franchises playing in Super Rugby….. they could of achieved this….it was not impossible. This assuming they could have six franchises without doing the legwork or homework in getting their Sanzar partners on side with the deal was pisss poor in my opinion. From some of the posts I have read on here….there are some out there who could do a far better job than the lot Governing the game in South Africa.
15 May 2012, 23:36 pm
@Te Rangatira(Te Rangatira)-126: South Africans are very embarrassed of their inept and narrow-minded rugby administrators, believe me.
I just cannot understand how or why these self serving people are appointed to these positions when clearly they do not have a modicum of intelligence, foresight, commercial awareness or indeed the best interests of South African rugby at heart.
16 May 2012, 01:30 am
Reality is in one of PA post upstair, it is re-arranging the deck chairs. It is a simple equation really, 6 does not go into 5 which leaves us with one team losing out. End of the day it is not about the Kings getting a chance but about the Lions missing out, what benefit is there in one team getting a forward push at the detriment of another?
Keep in mind the deal is to entranch the Kings for at least 2 years, again, what benefit is there in that for the team missing out?
Anyway, I do note a new trent being set by the spin doctors moving away from a “Cats’ merger like it is a given fact and more about HO having to be in Jhb! The Cats idea was wrong the first time around and nothing has changed to make it right or better this time around. It is very simple, as a staunch Cheetah supporter I had zero affinity for the Cats even though I attended most of the home games in Bloemfontein. Even when they were winning I felt little for them. Mucking around with the Cheetahs into some hybrib team will have the same effect this time around. It is dead in the water from a supporters point of view.
16 May 2012, 01:34 am
@Te Rangatira(Te Rangatira)-126:
Hehehe TR, this is the same saru who could not move quickly enough to get rid of a World Cup winning coach just to replace him with PDivvie. Yes, they truely have only the very best for SA rugby at heart!
Ultimately it is us, the supporters paying the price for their ineptness, ineptness that has been going on for a very, very long time.
16 May 2012, 06:54 am
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-127: @Slartibartfast(Slartibartfast)-129:
There everywhere, these hopeless administrators……..stuffing up everyone’s lives
with their blame it on the other person attitude…..they need to get a real job.
16 May 2012, 08:48 am
@hensopper1(hensopper1)-124: “But it is the very vindictive nature that insists on smashing existing institutions in order to create new ones” – no you are seriously misguided. i am not angry and i don’t want the Lions destroyed. the issue here is, when the spears were cast aside from super rugby none of the other unions affiliated with SARU said “whoa SARU stop, what you are doing is wrong, corrupt and will definitely destroy the South Eastern Cape and thus not good for SA Rugby”
they kept quiet and carried on like it was business as usual, none of them thought there would be a day where the shoe is on the other foot!
what is good for the goose, SURELY, is good for the gander hehehehe
16 May 2012, 12:56 pm
Those in favor of playoffs: On what basis do you suppose the Kings then sign up players for their 1st Super Rugby season? You honestly think the players will signup and put their careers on the line if them playing Super Rugby depends on the outcome of a play off match?
Remember the EP Kings team that played Vodacom Cup is NOT the Southern Kings team that will play next year. So what team would be playing in the playoffs? Many of the players that the Kings will contract are not even at the Kings yet, so how will you have a playoff in any case?
For those comments regarding chances of Griquas beating the Lions better than the Kings chances – dude, Southern Kings is a franchise. Griquas is a province and already part of a franchise (Cheetahs). So what exactly is your point?
I hear your point regarding WP being denied a spot (same happened to EP after their first season in Super Rugby in the 90s). But those are provinces, I cant remember any of the Franchises ever being involved in a play off match for a spot in Super Rugby.
I feel for the Lions, they are actually my “2nd team”. The Southern Kings are yet to play a single Super Rugby match, so at least give them that chance before writing them off.
16 May 2012, 13:09 pm
@MattP7(MattP7)-132: If that been so then would SARU purchase 50% of the Lions and the leopards to keep them afloat, you said what is good for the goose is good for the gander.If my mind is cast back to the annual report the EP rugby union had a loss of 36 million two years back.
The Lions/Transvaal were always the butt of SARU/SARFU except when King louis was in charge, Transvaal had no way of drawing players from any army camp, there were none in their area. Blue Bulls and Free state had ample people to choose from and they were put in certain camps to play rugby. Natal and EP bulldogs had the same problem. the Soapie continues and Humpty dumpty is still running SARU.
16 May 2012, 13:12 pm
@MattP7(MattP7)-132: The comment was for Transformation !
16 May 2012, 13:18 pm
CATS ARE NOT A REALISTIC OPTION……… That would be punishing 2 teams and only one team is under threat of relegation.
If I were a Lion supporter I would go down fighting, just in my nature.
16 May 2012, 16:52 pm
@UMKHONTO – 133 EPRU made a loss yes. Think you missed a decimal though, it was to the tune of R3mill. Not 36. That should change though when television rights and other revenue starts coming in.
Remember when you comment to include Pumas, Leopard and Golden Lions as the Lions unions. I agree SARU needs to ensure that these unions stay afloat as you put it. South African rugby cannot afford any of their unions going under. We often talk about the wealth of talent that comes from the EC and the FS. Thats true, but I also dont forget about the contribution that other unions make.
16 May 2012, 17:07 pm
@umkhonto(umkhonto)-134: R36 million??? where did you read that?
what kevin de klerk is trying to do is what cheeky and anele have been doing for the past 4 years!
EPRU gets unqualified audit – first in 7 years
2010/05/04
Sbongile Dimbaza
THE Eastern Province Rugby Union has received an unqualified audit report – the first in seven years.
EPRU president Cheeky Watson said this augured well for plans to ensure the union became attractive to sponsors.
“It’s down to good teamwork that we have achieved this. The union’s books have been in the red for a long time and our management strategy has paid off.”
He said turning things around in rugby was never an easy business, but what had been achieved was a reflection of pure determination on the part of the management.
Watson said this new development would give comfort to potential sponsors of the EPRU.
Part of the union’s plan is to hire an experienced coach, but Watson said talks were still at a sensitive stage.
New players are being sought to inject new blood into the team.
“We need to ensure we build on this achievement, because it’s going to have an impact on clubs and sub-unions.”
The union has been in the doldrums over the past few years.
During former EPRU boss Phillip Joseph’s tenure, he was alleged to have defrauded the National Lottery Board of R414 568.
It was discovered that some money had gone missing from sponsors and had been deposited into some employees’ personal accounts.
The police anti-corruption unit – formerly known as the Scorpions – was called in to investigate the possible fraud charges.
16 May 2012, 20:59 pm
Lions must have some form of legal recourse. I wouldn’t take this lying down if I were them.
16 May 2012, 21:10 pm
@Dusky. I’m sure they wont take it lying down. Neither will the Kings if they are to loose out yet again, which I seriously doubt will happen. Problem is sentiment towards Lions is changing due to their continued poor performances, so they are loosing a lot of the public support they enjoyed previously.
And let’s not forget the franchise licenses are up for renewal end of 2012…
17 May 2012, 10:14 am
@Dusky(Dusky)-138: The Lions can not really go the legal route, you cannot take your employer to court and still work for him. The Lions will have to bite the bullet and think out the box, and the Kings are almost like your employers family. We as Lions fans can take it to the next level, wear your Lions jersey to the FNB test match. Will I support the Kings when they play ANZAC teams– NEVER — I will celebrate every point scored against them and mourn every point they score.
17 May 2012, 10:25 am
@umkhonto(umkhonto)-140: f(cuking traitor!
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