Spies: No Bok selection favours
15 May 2012
Pierre Spies believes his form is good enough to put him in contention for a starting place with the Springboks but stressed that he expects no favouritism from his mentor and national coach Heyneke Meyer.
Meyer has worked with Spies from his school days and was instrumental in converting him from a wing to a No 8, a move Meyer promised would see him become a Springbok. Less than a year after the switch Meyer’s promise became reality and Spies has felt indebted to him since, while Meyer has always followed his progress as a Test player closely.
Meyer stressed at his first press conference that form would be his primary criterion for selection and Spies feels he fits the bill in this regard.
And while Spies’s Super Rugby form has been good, he certainly hasn’t scaled the heights he did in the Bulls’ championship winning seasons of 2009 and 2010, where he was among the pre-eminent players in his position in world rugby.
This website understands that Meyer has some concerns around Spies’s game at present and indeed was leaning towards selecting the Stormers’ Duane Vermuelen ahead of him for the June Test series against England. However, with Vermuelen ruled out until at least July with a knee injury, and with no players advancing their cause, Meyer is unlikely to look beyond Spies (although he admires elements of Ryan Kankowski’s game).
Spies, though, has no serious concerns about the standard of his performances.
‘I feel I’ve gone pretty well, my form is good,’ Spies told keo.co.za. ‘I haven’t been as prominent as I hoped I’d be with ball in hand and there’s many reasons for that. For example in the last two matches I’ve carried seven and five times respectively. So I understand when people question my form. Out of sight, out of mind, I guess. It’s up to me to get more involved, but generally I thought I’ve done well, especially considering the added weight of responsibility as captain.’
Spies’ lack of punch at the gainline relative to his impressive physical constitution has been one of the primary criticisms of him. It’s an area he believes he has improved markedly.
‘I’ve focused on that facet of my game. I know I should be dominating more contact situations, it’s a quality shared by the world’s best No. 8s, and if I want to consider myself in that group I will have to continue to improve.’
Asked how he sees himself placed in relation to other South African No 8s and his prospects for the Test season, Spies said: ‘I’d like to think I’m right up there. If you want to be considered for Bok selection you have to be playing consistently well.
‘Heyneke and I do go back a long way but that won’t have any impact on my selection. He has too much integrity to do me a selection favour,’ Spies said. ‘Honesty has always been important in our relationship and if he felt I wasn’t up to scratch he’d tell me straight and have a list of things for me to do to get back to the top.’
Spies did, however, say that he felt Meyer was the one coach capable of rousing him to an elevated level of performance. ‘With no disrespect intended to my current or previous coaches, Heyneke’s the best motivator of all,’ he said. ‘He knows just how to get the very best out of his players, especially me, given that he has worked with me from the time I was a teenager. He knows what buttons to press.
‘That’s why I was pleased when he got the Bok job because I knew he would help take my Test game to a new level. I’m looking forward to that. I believe he can make me the best player in my position in the game.’
By Ryan Vrede
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78 Comments
15 May 2012, 12:05 pm
Ha ha ha
(Deep belly laugh)
15 May 2012, 12:08 pm
No way this guy is a better player than either Vermeulen or Alberts…. test or super rugby… should stick to those outsuranse ads…
15 May 2012, 12:10 pm
@line break(line break)-2:
vermeulen is injured, but you know this.
alberts form is really poor right now, but you know this.
15 May 2012, 12:16 pm
Spies has absolutely no ball skills, he can hardly catch the ball, pass or offload. Look at the chiefs 8, Messam. Light years ahead. Further, he has no strength in contact or the tackle. The only thing that he has going for him is his pace and lineout skills. In open play he can be devastating, but how often do you get room in test rugby?
15 May 2012, 12:22 pm
I’m looking forward to interviews with Jean de Villiers, Jannie du Plessis, Bryan Habana, JP Pietersen and Heinrich Brussouw where they also have to justfiy their potential selection to a journalist.
I still can’t understand why Spies gets so much attention, when we only have maybe 1 or 2 players who are currently the best in their positions in the world. The rest all need to play for their positions, Spies included.
It’s not as if we have loads of other options right now in any case.
This Spies obsession needs to tone down a bit, Ryan.
15 May 2012, 12:23 pm
@3
And kankowski went off the radar.
Will be remembered for the hand-off on McCaw vs the ‘saders
15 May 2012, 12:36 pm
Hi Ryan, you forgot to ask him whether he still regard himself as the world’s best 8th man in the making or whether he feels that he has achieved that accolade already. You also neglected to ask him about his play without ball in hand e.g. tackling and rucks. This interview could have given us so much more information and insight from Spies’ perspective; I think you missed a golden opportunity.
15 May 2012, 12:41 pm
maybe Heyneke shoud tell him to cowboy the hell up a bit.
15 May 2012, 12:49 pm
He is actually playing well at the moment… Surprisingly…
15 May 2012, 12:56 pm
@THE MAULER(THE MAULER)-9:
as surprising as the bulls being top of the super rugby log..?..
15 May 2012, 12:57 pm
Bakkies no… Bulls have been playing well and I have always said they will be a good team… Dont think they will be top at the end… Maybe top SA log…
15 May 2012, 13:07 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-5: Bwaa haa haa , sorry Tact but you do see the irony of telling others to tone down the Spies Obsession hey.
15 May 2012, 13:07 pm
he does what he does well. i just wish he’d do more.
and with a bit more mongrel. however, a lot can be said for the Bulls composure and how that has helped them over the line in tight games, and that can be parked directly at his door. he provides very calm leadership under tough situations.
but then on ve over hand, if he pulled finger a bit more maybe they’d avoid some of those tight situations in the first place. its a catch 22.
15 May 2012, 13:21 pm
Spies is hondkak! Great athlete, but that we speak of him as an 8th man is crazy… Look to players like Read, Parisse, Harinordoquy – all classic carriers, great defenders, excellent tracking defenders, good under the high ball, brilliant lineout options etc. Spies is decent in the lineout and can move it if he gets going in the loose – I can’t ever remember him hitting someone with his shoulder (he ‘tackles’ – sometimes – with loose flailing arms)… and he has no aggression – I’m not asking for Bakkies-esque aggression, but look to dominate the man in front of you – don’t just expect them to get out your way…
I’m not the biggest Vermeulen fan, but as an 8 he is light years ahead of Spies. Keegan is such a dynamic player, he does just get a bit lost in the tighter test rugby arena and Alberts (despite poor form recently) has become a little one dimensional with his direct running – as he has good skills and plays a good offloading game if he gets it going. Kanko looked very aggro when he came on against the Force on saturday – interested to see what he will do in the coming weeks…
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-5: “I still can’t understand why Spies gets so much attention…” because he proclaimed himself the next big thing and is an awesome human specimen that can’t translate that promise into consistent rugby playing ability – he is a massive let down!
15 May 2012, 13:25 pm
@THE MAULER(THE MAULER)-11:
if the bulls beat the chiefs, they will win the comp.
you heard it here.
15 May 2012, 13:38 pm
He was never a wing! He played 8th man for Affies and was selected on the wing by Meyer. So he basically made him a wing then moved him back after the move failed!
15 May 2012, 13:38 pm
The problem with spies is he thinks his current form is good enough, he says as much in the interview. I think if he got droped he would come back and be twice the player he is now.
15 May 2012, 13:44 pm
Duane Vermuelen is best bo8 we have.
Alberts second
15 May 2012, 14:02 pm
The only reason Britney should be allowed near the starting lineup is because everyone else are either injured or seriously lacking form (Alberts). I would even play Keegan ahead of him – he has far better ball skills, vision, is not short on pace and certainly doesn’t lack the necessary aggression to play in your face, even if Spies is somewhat larger than him.
15 May 2012, 14:06 pm
If Spies plays 8 and we go with an out and out fetcher then we are going to have to play someone like Elstadt at blidnside otherwise we will lose the collision battle against the Poms……it’s a serious worry…why o why did Duane Vermeulen get injured now of all times!
15 May 2012, 14:42 pm
I have been very disappointed with Pierre Spies. Initially, he bulldozed everyone off the rugby field. You really thought, hey, look at this guy, he’s a total freak and just expected so many good things. And then mediocrity set in and he simply disappeared into the background. I really hope Meyer can help him realize his full potential.
15 May 2012, 15:09 pm
So the evolution is not yet completed?
CJ Stander is a much better option! Drop Spies to the Tuks team and make Jeandre Kruger cappie!
Its been 8 years now, and Spies not yet there where Ryan Vrede and the Oos Pawiljoen brigade thought he would be.
15 May 2012, 15:14 pm
Of course Spies would say he is good enough
Which job applicant would tell his prospective employer that he does not feel he deserves the job?
15 May 2012, 15:23 pm
@Mighty Horua(Mighty Horua)-22: After 100 caps we may start seeing some improvement perhaps
15 May 2012, 15:27 pm
@Tacitus(Deucalion)-5: i agree, the more he talks the less you have to say
“‘I’ve focused on that facet of my game. I know I should be dominating more contact situations, it’s a quality shared by the world’s best No. 8s, and if I want to consider myself in that group I will have to continue to improve.’
this is a change from:
‘Who is the best No 8 in world rugby?’ I ask. I fully expect him to rattle off some boring bullshit like: ‘That’s tough. Ryan Kankowski is an unbelievable player, and that bloke from Wales, whatshisname? Powell? Ja, Andy Powell, that boy can play a bit. And the Irishman, Jamie Heaslip, he’s coming through nicely. Oh ja, and Rodney So’oialo …’
Instead, I’m met with a thoughtful gaze before the most unexpected response. ‘That player is still in the making. It’s me.’
15 May 2012, 15:32 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-25: Reality is a B*I*T*C*H
15 May 2012, 15:32 pm
@Mighty Horua(Mighty Horua)-22: i don’t know about this “evolution”
this is what jake had to say re “evolution”:
“But we have to remember that he still needs to mature as a player. He’s so big and strong we forget how young he actually is. People see him as something that he’ll be one day, but isn’t yet. He’ll get mentally stronger and that will bring about improvements across the board. It’s not that he disappears in tight games as is the perception, it’s that he’s not as mentally tough as he will be when he’s 26, 27, 28. He’ll learn the shortcuts and when he does, performances like the ones against England and the Blues will become the norm”
how old is Spies now?
15 May 2012, 15:38 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-27:
His 27 next month.
He had so much potential. Question is can he still improve.
15 May 2012, 15:43 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-27:
Dont be so hard on him, Transie
Its his first year of Captaincy and with it comes greater responsibility, attention to detail and expectation.
15 May 2012, 15:46 pm
DAWNNNN! Just for you! From Cricinfo…Russel Arnold Interview
Q: If Chris Gayle said he would share one secret with you, what would you ask him?
A: Well, I would ask him when he gets angry. I would really ask him that. “When do you get angry and it shows in your face?” Because since I’ve been around Chris, I’ve heard it in his voice. Whenever he gets really angry, he kind of gets a tremble in his voice, and I just know that he’s about to blow. But you can’t see it on his face. It just goes to show you that God makes different types of people.
Even when he’s angry, he’s just sitting there, just looking around. Even if you call him or you are behind him, he’s not going to give you a brisk look back. He is going to take his time and look back. That’s how he is. That is why they call him Crampy. He is actually one of my heroes and he is showcasing it in the IPL as well. He has amazing strength and timing of the ball. It doesn’t matter how strong you are, if you don’t time the cricket ball, you are not going to get it where you want. Whenever Delhi play against him… Chris, you are my star man, but I would love to get you out very cheaply because I know the damage you can do.
15 May 2012, 15:48 pm
Spies will start against the Poms, not my first choice but I hope he has an absolute blinder nonetheless. If he doesn’t then Vermeulen deserves a run, once he has recovered of course.
15 May 2012, 15:50 pm
@Mighty Horua(Mighty Horua)-30:
Mr Cool!
15 May 2012, 16:00 pm
There is another 8th man down in Cape Town that were shielded in his first year of senior rugby by playing him on the wing. IMO this over protection from coaches really hampers a player’s development from school boy rugby hero into real hard rugby players. Look at the current crop of young flankers playing really well without any special treatment or shielding.
15 May 2012, 16:05 pm
Spies is the guy in the saddle and no one else has done enough to get the nod at this stage.
Plus his combination experience with Hougaard!
My preference was Alberts, but not on current form(I think Schalk Burger could also be used there when his injury is over later in the year)
Future no.8 might be Stander!
15 May 2012, 16:06 pm
Need the mongrel factor at no 8 – spies hasnt got it
15 May 2012, 16:06 pm
Heynecke should play Ashley Johnson as reserve loosie!
15 May 2012, 16:09 pm
@John1976(John1976)-33: i don’t think they were “shielding” him, instead the hype was sooooo much that rassie was forced to field him at wing!
the bou had a 2 or 3 page spread in the Argus…
15 May 2012, 16:12 pm
@Jonck(Jonck)-36: I think Ashley has contracted Piriweepunitis of the bum. If he can shake this affliction, he could become quite a player.
15 May 2012, 16:16 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-You are right, it is as consequense of the hype, but there was also an element of trying to shield him from the big boys in the forwards. Meyer did the same with Spies initially, converting him from a forward to a wing. They both are now in the same boat; much hype around both initially and on current form they don’t deserve starting berths at their respective teams.37:
15 May 2012, 19:00 pm
I think Spies might just have a blinder of a series against the Poms, as he did years ago when White was Bok coach. But even if he does, that will probably be just another flash in the pan. His mommy should have given him a teaspoon of cement every morning.
15 May 2012, 19:11 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-37: Koster must be one of the biggest disappointments in recent years. Kolisi and Carr have both done far more in their brief Super Rugby careers than Koster has – and he is already in his third season! If he wasn’t injured, I would have picked Carr ahead of Spies for the Boks.
15 May 2012, 19:23 pm
I don’t think people quite understand how difficult the mental shift is for a player being converted from wing to 8th man (or backline player to any forward position) so I understand his seeming inability to dominate the contact situation.
That said, I thought Spies has been okay this year – his tackling is still **** but so is the rest of his team’s so one can put that down to defensive structures.
Never been a fan of Duane, said as much on this site numerous times but hell he did play some good rugby before his injury – most impressive against the Reds (?) when he was captain.
With Duane out, there is no other option than Spies for me. Alberts has been dog-**** this year which I put down to fatigue. He might impress in the next 3 games and I hope he does – we all know what he is capable of.
I forget the Cheetahs number 8′s name now – but that guy has also been very, very impressive.
With Alberts’ current form, I’d start Spies with Ash or the other Cheetahs lad as cover (or in the squad).
15 May 2012, 19:42 pm
By this time, a player of Spies experience shouldn’t be relying on the national coach to motivate him and improve his game. He’s either there or he’s not.
15 May 2012, 19:43 pm
@David(David)-43:
And that is also a valid point.
15 May 2012, 19:47 pm
Play
Coetsee at 8
Elstadt at 7
Kolisi at 6
and Stander on bench, (Van der Walt can also feature off bench)
and you will fck up England and anybody else that might come along
Squad to pick from to handle England
Taute, Aplon
JPP, Engelbrecht
De Villiers (c), De Jongh, Venter, Steyn F.
Habana, Basson
Steyn M., Lambie
Hougaard, Duvenhage, Pienaar
Coetsee, Kolisi, Stander, Elstadt, Spies, Brussow, V d Walt.
Bekker, Kruger, Etsebeth
Kruger, Malherbe, Oosthuizen
Bismark, Chili, Fourie
Greyling, Kitshoff, Beast
15 May 2012, 19:47 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-42: Hey man, has been playing at 8 all his life. For a few seasons after school they tried him at 14, cause he is quick and his dad played there back in the day. So no ‘coversion’ that is a load of rubbish. You hear Ryan?
15 May 2012, 19:48 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-42: Also, we’re not interested in understanding how difficult it is to make the mental shift from being a wing to being an 8th man. We didn’t ask Spies or Koster to do this – we just want the best possible Bok 8th man.
15 May 2012, 19:50 pm
Spies will NEVER be an international class No.8
Vermeulen should have been Bok 8 a thousand times before Spies ever got given that honor.. its outright travesty that players of Vermeulen’s caliber and class and true No.8 pedigree get overlooked for useless cowardly poefta’s the likes of Spies and Kankowski.
15 May 2012, 19:50 pm
@skopskiet(skopskiet)-45: Sounds good to me.
15 May 2012, 19:54 pm
Also, Spies is so badly in denial. His problem is defence where he is a mere passenger. His second problem is gain line metres. This guy think he should be running into gaps where there are no defenders, which will equate to so called ‘carries’. If you tell this theory to Keiran Reid he will think you’r in a relationship with Gareth Thomas!!!
15 May 2012, 20:01 pm
@skopskiet(skopskiet)-48: Agreed. He has had so many chances, yet he has never delivered! I guess you get lazy and lacking when you are playing behind a good pack for the majority of your career. Take Morne-Deep in the pocket up and under- Steyn for instance. Completely lacking talent to play the game yet he looks the real deal at times. But he is sooooo overrated!
15 May 2012, 20:13 pm
At the moment spies is playing well in a good bulls pack and i think he deserves to be included in a bok squad.The cheetahs ashley johnson has got that mongrel in him but he has played poorly when he played for the boks,he is not even first choice for the cheetahs.So who else is left to challenge spies for the No8 jersey.
15 May 2012, 20:27 pm
Spies is just lucky that there aren’t really any other options.
15 May 2012, 20:27 pm
@blueboy(blueboy)-52:
At the moment, nobody, unless you agree with HG that Daniels is the best 8 in SA. But that doesn’t mean that Spies is the answer as the Bok 8.
15 May 2012, 20:30 pm
Spies is not an international No.8 Period
ANY of
Stander, Kolisi or Coetsee could fill the No. 8 spot way better than Spies is doing at present and so could Vd Walt, and probably Daniel also (although too small for international attrition rugby – yet would Still ADD 100% more than Spies does)
15 May 2012, 20:34 pm
@skopskiet(skopskiet)-55: It would be a pretty big call to play Stander, Kolisi or Coetsee at 8 for the Boks when they haven’t played 8 for their Super Rugby teams – they Kolisi may yet get a game there for the Stormers. Realistically, it’s not gonna happen.
15 May 2012, 20:41 pm
what everyone seems to be MISSING is the fact that the Boks under the personnel of
Smit
Spies
FdP
Steyn
Kirchner
the golden thread that Danie Craven spoke about as the back bone of an international team
Have NOT won ONE decent international encounter SINCE Eoyt 2009
2009 Eoyt Lost to France & Ireland
2010 Lost to NZ x 3, Aus x 2 – won 1 from 6 in 3N
2011 Lost to NZ, Aus, Aus – won 1 from 4 in 3N
2011 Lost to Aus in WC 1/4 final.. and almost lost to Wales had Smit and Spies not been subbed, and Hougaard not saved the day.
Only other top flight internationals we won in the past 3 years were
Eoyt 2010 when Smit and FdP were not present,
and ONE win vs Aus in 2010 under Matfield,
and ONE win vs NZ in 2011 under Matfield.
ALL other wins were against mickey mouse teams on tour like Italy etc.
15 May 2012, 20:42 pm
Jaques Cronje’ and JvN are better Test level No. 8s than any of the current players available in SA, that included Vermuelen, Daniel and Albert.
Marcell Coetzee comes to mind as a great prospect next season.
Spies should not get the nod,
15 May 2012, 20:43 pm
#56 Kaksioek i agree with you i aint gonna happen and who knows maybe spies will come good if he is picked against the poms.
15 May 2012, 20:44 pm
@kaksioek(kaksioek)-56:
Either of those Stander or Kolisi or Coetsee would play 100% better than Spies at 8 at International level.. Guaranteed
My Bok loosies would look like this
Coetsee
Elstadt
Kolisi / Brussow
bench Stander, or Vd Walt – ahead of Spies
15 May 2012, 20:49 pm
@skopskiet(skopskiet)-60: 25% better maybe, but it isn’t going to happen.
15 May 2012, 20:59 pm
I tell you this much
let Matfield, Spies, FdP and M. Steyn with Kirchner at FB run on vs England and I doubt I will be able to muster any desire to root for Boks.. because then I don’t propose we deserve to win with that kind of retrograde mentality running our rugby.
15 May 2012, 21:01 pm
I won’t really be able to stomach Matfield and FdP – that’s for sure.
15 May 2012, 21:39 pm
@Flat distributor(Flat distributor)-51: Then Peter Grant must be hond k a k because he is playing behind the “best” pack in the competition and the Stormers cannot score any tries.
15 May 2012, 21:54 pm
I really like the idea of Coetzee as a possible 8. He’s a fantastic player, but at the moment we have quite a few guys coming through in the 7 position, so the move could be good for him. Kolisi should really consider the move to 8 as well as he seems to have a very complete skill set and he has a little more pace to run the ball back at the opposition.
Carr makes more sense at 6 than Kolisi if one considers their respective builds. Carr has the right build to become a ground scavenger once he has developed those skills.
8. Kolisi 7. Elstadt 6. Carr – brilliant combo going forward for Stormers (and perhaps even Boks). And Duane will be around for a while as a 8/7 before this combo becomes a permanent fixture (which I venture it will)
15 May 2012, 22:25 pm
hehehe Skoppie, “maak die Stormers almal Bokke”
16 May 2012, 02:08 am
aaaah kuk Spies, your form is nowhere………….you get knocked back in the collisions and have no mongrel. If there is any biff you turn your back and walk off like a baby………… feel free to blow smoke up your own a rse though.
Is Alberts injured, he has just gone off the scene and I have not seen anything re him being injured?
16 May 2012, 05:16 am
Spies definitely had it, but he also definitely lost it…. years ago. He has got to the point of actually being insignificant on attack and pathetic on defence. When was the last time he made a big tackle and imposed his physicality on someone?
16 May 2012, 05:33 am
@HongKongSlong(HongKongSlong)-68:
When exactly did he have it? I would like to say like Meisiekind he is just not up to test rugby but that will be unfair towards Meisiekind, he has actually done well at Super level where Spies is failing even at that level as well.
16 May 2012, 06:05 am
@Slartibartfast(Slartibartfast)-69: Spies’s highlight reel will make for much better viewing then Meiskind’s, unless you happen to be viewing from a head and shoulders perspective!
16 May 2012, 06:20 am
@HongKongSlong(HongKongSlong)-70:
Hehehe I am no fan but Meisiekind has had good moments in Super rugby over the years, he is just not made out for test rugby where he falls flat. Spies currently seems tio struggle in Super rugby and it seems he will wear the #8 jumper in a few weeks
16 May 2012, 09:23 am
Spies will be selected, if for no other reason than the fact that there isn’t really anyone to push him at the moment! The reason he doesn’t dominate the collision is because he is the rugby equivalent of a “pumped up cruiserweight”. It’s the same reason that Evander Holifield always struggled to knock out other decent heavy weights. Spies is a wing turned loose forward. Jonah Lomu was a natural loose forward turned wing. A very big difference when it comes to the collision. Spies can therefore excell in the faster and more frantic Super Rugby environment, but never dominates in the tighter test environment, where physicality rules.
16 May 2012, 09:29 am
Spies should essentially be a wing or centre. He does not have the natural strength of the other 8′s. Even Daniels is a better option than him.
Spies needs to drop down to about 95 kaygees and the Boks would have another option at centre.
16 May 2012, 09:35 am
@Great White Shark(Predawn)-73: Wing maybe, but not a centre. Not sure he has the skills for centre.
16 May 2012, 09:38 am
Spies is a one trick pony like Donkey de Villiers. He just runs straight. Perhaps you are right.
BTW de Villiers should be playing this weekend. Any bloggers want to take bets on how long before he is injured again..
I say three weeks.
16 May 2012, 10:03 am
Spies is a very poor 1st choice for bok no 8,and this hint,hint Heyneke will bring out the best in me is pure suck up bullsh*t!
27 May 2012, 07:38 am
@NicG(NicG)-14: You speak th truth. Can’t be a International class 8thman and not dominate opposition in defence. He’s a luxury player to have. He’s missing at Maul time, might as well have him on the wing.
27 May 2012, 07:41 am
I just hope we dont end up playing Bulls Rugby.
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