Test rugby’s a different beast
15 May 2012
MARK KEOHANE, in his weekly Business Day column, says Super Rugby is not the measure of a Test player.
All Blacks coach Steve Hansen has got the mix right with his first national training squad of 35. And I know Bok coach Heyneke Meyer will look to a similar balancing act of youth and experience.
Super Rugby form is an indicator but is not the definitive measure of a Test player, and there are those who thrive in the claustrophobic cauldron of Test rugby but never respond to the more forgiving platform that encourages flamboyance and excuses mistakes.
So many players look sensational in Super Rugby and quite the opposite in Test rugby. It is why the good Test coaches and selectors understand what makes a good Test player, but not necessarily what makes a player good.
Jake White always used to say the 15 best players are not necessarily the best 15. As an example, the best 6, 7 and 8 when assessed individually may not necessarily be the best 6, 7 and 8 combination.
Test rugby is more about combinations than individuals, but it is definitely about experience more than youth.
Hansen has rewarded six of the New Zealand U20s from the victorious 2011 Junior World Championship campaign and he has included 21 Test veterans from the World Cup-winning squad, many of whom have been poor in Super Rugby.
Among the poorest performers has been Blues lock Ali Williams. Hansen described the player as an enigma, reminding the critics that while Williams had often been poor in Super Rugby, he had seldom played a poor Test match in 73 internationals.
Super Rugby is a fantastic medium for players to showcase attacking skills. The majority of the matches are played at a frantic pace, tries are scored and taking a risk is applauded.
Attack generally rules the mind over defence (unless you find yourself in the Stormers change room) and the emotional demands can’t be compared with those of a Test match.
The point that there is a difference in mentality when playing Super Rugby and Currie Cup to Test rugby can never be emphasised enough. Some players live only for Test rugby, while others can’t live with the emotional stress that one mistake can often determine a Test result.
There will always be exceptions — players who can adapt their game with ease and prosper in any environment, and the exceptional players dominate Test rugby as 20-year-olds. Think Dan Carter, Frans Steyn and James O’Connor.
Generally players need time to settle into Test rugby and they need the comfort of turning to experience.
White, post 2007’s World Cup success, singled out Os du Randt and Percy Montgomery’s experience as among the most powerful aspects of the Boks.
Experience should also not be confused with a player’s age. Experience at Test level is about a player having regular exposure to mental stress and positively overcoming this stress.
Chiefs loose forward Liam Messam is a very good player. If all one had to assess him on was his provincial and Super Rugby history, he could even be described as an exceptional player. However, he has never been imposing or inspiring in a Test jumper.
The All Blacks midfield pairing of Frank Bunce and Walter Little played for a limited Chiefs team and, because of the quality of their side and the hapless environment, often looked no more than a half-decent centre partnership. Yet for a decade they were considered among the best the world had seen when playing for the All Blacks. They were an example of players whose qualities as Test players were always more seductive than their Super Rugby form.
In this year’s Super Rugby, Hurricanes fullback Andre Taylor and Crusaders centre Robbie Freuen have on occasion looked magnificent, but it was no surprise they weren’t included in the initial All Blacks squad. Both are damn good players, but both have limitations and flaws to their games. These limitations can be excused in Super Rugby, but Taylor’s poor line-kicking game is more significant than his ability to revel on attack in expansive, 40 plays 30 Super Rugby matches.
Meyer, in selecting his first Bok squad, will be accused of Bulls bias, of having a prejudice against attacking mindsets and of not introducing a new generation and a new era.
Those bashing him will use Super Rugby form, league positions and even a Currie Cup performance (team or individual) in justification of their stance. But for the debate to be relevant and insightful there has to be an understanding that it isn’t as simple as the 15-best start and Super Rugby form.
It also isn’t as simple as taking kids in 2012 to build a team that challenges for the 2015 World Cup.
The revolution in Bok rugby will be when the support base recognises the revolution is actually an evolution.
123 Comments
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 » Show All
15 May 2012, 14:28 pm
@Te Rangatira(Te Rangatira)-48:
Average missed tackles per game
15 May 2012, 14:29 pm
An interesting article. Thank you. When I read this, I was immediately thinking of Derick Hougaard and Wynand Olivier. Both are very good players in the Super 15, but come Test time, they come off as pretty average. Just my opinion.
15 May 2012, 14:36 pm
Frank Bunce is a prime example of a guy who puts on a black jersey….grows another leg. He spoke about enjoying playing for Laurie Mains…..who was all blood and guts…..just goes to show you…if a coach can push the right buttons a player can lift his game to another level.
15 May 2012, 14:41 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-46: @Te Rangatira(Te Rangatira)-48: Well, I don’t have a stat for tackles missed per game. But we can compare missed tackle stats with the stats for most tackles made:
Most Tackles Made
1. Marcell Coetzee (Sharks) 168
2. David Pocock (Force) 165
3. Matt Todd (Crusaders) 164
4. Heinrich Brussow (Cheetahs) 151
5. Siyamthanda Kolisi (Stormers) 150
6. Brodie Retallick (Chiefs) 139
7. Philip van der Walt (Cheetahs) 137
8. Matthew Hodgson (Force) 136
9. Liam Messam (Chiefs) 131
10. Luke Jones (Rebels) 130
11. Michael Hooper (Brumbies) 129
12. Faifili Levave (Hurricanes) 128
12. Gareth Delve (Rebels) 128
14. George Whitelock (Crusaders) 127
15. Jeremy Thrush (Hurricanes) 123
15. Liam Gill (Reds) 123
17. James Horwill (Reds) 121
17. Sam Cane (Chiefs) 121
19. Dane Coles (Hurricanes) 119
20. Stephen Moore (Brumbies) 117
Only two players are on both lists: Marcell Coetzee and Faifili Levave. Coetzee has made 168 tackles and missed 21 (87.5% success rate). Levave, meanwhile, has made 128 tackles and missed 23 (82% success rate). To my mind, those success rates are quite high and both players are good defenders and workaholics (especially Coetzee).
15 May 2012, 15:08 pm
@kaksioek(kaksioek)-54: how many tackles has kolisi missed as i see he has made 18 tackles less than marcell. what is his tackle accuracy rate?
15 May 2012, 15:12 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-55: I’m not sure, because he isn’t on the list for Most Missed Tackles. In other words, his success rate must be pretty high.
15 May 2012, 15:24 pm
@kaksioek(kaksioek)-31: I think Fruean’s defensive frailties aren’t that he drops off tackles, he’s physically right up there with any centres so won’t miss a lot of tackles, but more his misreading of the game, lapses in concentration and workrate. Compared to someone like Conrad Smith, he’s lightyears behind.
15 May 2012, 15:30 pm
@super_pippo(super_adi)-57: Really dont think he is that far behind – his combo with SBW last season for the Saders was fantastic – he will wear the black one day
15 May 2012, 15:30 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-55: Skarksworld compared three blindside flanks after week 10 in picking their team of the week:
Picking the blindside-flanker for Week 10
3 May 12 00:14 by Letgo | Cheetahs, Lions, Original Content, Stormers, Super Rugby | Comment?
Tags: Flank, Rynhardt Elstadt, Selections, Sharksworld, Team of the Week
Related Posts:
Sharksworld’s Team of the Week 10
Sharksworld’s Team of the Week 9
Sharksworld’s Team of the Week 8
Sharksworld’s Team of the Week 6
Stormers drop Koster for Bulls visit
I again made use of stats to determine the selections of a few of our Sharksworld team of the week players. Here’s an in depth look at how I came to my conclusion to selecting my 7.
I decided to look at all three players playing in the position when using the stats to decide the selection and this is how I make use of those stats. Enjoy!
Derick Minnie/Rynhardt Elstadt/ Siya Kolisi
Rynhardt was subbed with 5 minutes to go.
Kicking
No significant kicking stats.
Ball in Hand
Derick made 9 runs, 7 of which got his team over the advantage line – 59 meters, 8 meters per run. His meters came from tight play (54m) and open play (5m). He also made 1 line break, created another and busted through 4 tackles.
Rynhardt made 8 runs, 1 of which got his team over the advantage line – 30 meters, 4 meters per run. His meters came from tight play (17m), open play (8m) and pick and drive (5m). He is not credited with a line break or tackle bust, but scored 1 try for his team.
Kolisi made 8 runs, 6 of which got his team over the advantage line – 38 meters, 5 meters per run. His meters came from open play (26m) and tight play (12m). He made 1 line break and busted 1 tackle.
Defence
I compare stats from 4 sites to get a bit of comparative data and thus ensure a fair analysis, by breaking the tackles attempted down into 4 sections, solid tackles, tackles made or effective tackles, ineffective tackles and missed tackles:
Derick attempted 11, made 6 solid tackles, 1 ineffective tackle and 4 missed tackles. He also got one turn over possession for his team.
Rynhardt attempted 17 tackles, made 5 solid tackle, 8 effective tackles and missed 4 tackle.
Kolisi attempted 14 tackles, made 9 solid tackles, 2 ineffective tackles and missed 3 tackles.
The best success rate being Elstadt with 76%.
Errors
This includes losing possession which can be in general play or the tackle/ruck situation, giving away penalties and free kicks, as well as other errors. These can include a knock-on or I suppose something like Coetzee did when he couldn’t recover a ball that was kicked through ending up in a try for the Brumbies.
Derick lost possession 1 time, gave away 1 penalty and made 2 other errors.
Rynhardt lost possession 2 times, gave away 1 penalty and made 1 other error.
Kolisi lost possession 2 times.
Set pieces
Minnie is head above the rest as a line-out options. Taking 3 of his own line-outs and stealing 3 on the opposition line-out. Elstadt was used once as a line-out option.
So the question is who do we pick based on these stats? My conclusion:
Minnie was prominent as an attacking player, but maybe let his team down by being too erratic on defense and careless with possession. Ultimately in a team that has build their campaign on solid defense, Elstadt gets the nod for his contribution.
15 May 2012, 15:32 pm
@super_pippo(super_adi)-57: Smith is good, but his powers are waning. He has missed quite a few tackles this season. Freuen is the future.
15 May 2012, 15:36 pm
@stew(stew)-58: Overall, he’s not too far behind, but in that aspect of play, which New Zealand value highly and where Conrad Smith is possibly the best, he needs to make up a lot of ground. I agree that he will be an All Black soon.
15 May 2012, 15:40 pm
“the revolution is actually an evolution.” …star wars lmao
15 May 2012, 15:45 pm
@kaksioek(kaksioek)-59: I suppose it is hard to compare different games but hell Minnie still looks good which is surprising.
15 May 2012, 15:51 pm
@kaksioek(kaksioek)-59: i don’t get it, how can elstadt & kolisi BOTH be seen as blindside flankers playing in the same back row on different sides?
i know the lions are injury ravaged but has minnie ever played blindside?
15 May 2012, 15:54 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-64: Hey, don’t shoot the messenger
15 May 2012, 15:55 pm
@kaksioek(kaksioek)-54: Here are couple of reposts of some comments I made on Sunday.
Coetzee is a farken prodigy. And Daniel is way underrated. (Obviuosly your stats are probably more up to date as on Sunday morning:
Most Tackles Made
1. Matt Todd (Crusaders) 164
2. Marcell Coetzee (Sharks) 152
3. David Pocock (Force) 151
4. Heinrich Brussow (Cheetahs) 138
5. Luke Jones (Rebels) 130
Most Runs
1. Nasi Manu (Highlanders) 141
2. Adam Thomson (Highlanders) 106
2. Nathan Sharpe (Force) 106
4. Marcell Coetzee (Sharks) 99
5. Hosea Gear (Highlanders) 97
Through the mud and the beer, and the blood and the cheers, I’ve seen
Champions come and go
So if you got the guts mister, yeah if you’ve got the balls
If you think it’s your time, then step to the line, and bring on your
Wrecking ball
Bring on your wrecking ball
Bring on your wrecking ball
Come on and take your best shot, let me see what you’ve got
Bring on your wrecking ball
Marcell Coetzee is the WRECKING BALL
And Keegan the Super 8 has pretty damn decent stats himself
Most Runs: 10th with 82
Most Run meters: 7th on 659
Try assists: 10th
Linebreak assists: 9th
Offloads: 3rd after SBW and Andre Taylor – 2 prime time backs
Fuckme, no other SA 8 comes close to being in the top 10 for any Category…
Keegan is THE best 8 in the Country if not the whole Comp. FULL STOP
15 May 2012, 16:00 pm
@kaksioek(kaksioek)-59: Fuckedup analysis by the Sharksworld “expert”… They play different positions. A flank is not just a “flank” FFS!
15 May 2012, 16:02 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-66:
Finally
We cant take any more of small wanger’s pathetic attempts at Stormer abuse
15 May 2012, 16:02 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-67: It actually wouldn’t surprise me if Megatron had a hand in this analysis… The kn.obber
15 May 2012, 16:03 pm
@Dawn(Dawn)-68: What’s your story, chick?
15 May 2012, 16:10 pm
@Te Rangatira(Te Rangatira)-53: Frank Bunce, farken Legend…
The eternal game of rugby I want to watch upstairs in the Puffy clouds once I’ve kicked the bucket will involve these pairs of centres:
12 Phillipe Sella (I know he mostly played 13 but dammit I want to see him partnered with the Darling of Despatch. He has an eternity to perfect this.)
13 Danie Gerber
vs
12 Tim Horan
13 Frank Bunce
Hellsteeth. That will be something.
15 May 2012, 16:10 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-69:
15 May 2012, 16:12 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-70:
He’s been trying to abuse Stormers for two days but has been failing.
We need you to give him a few pointers.
15 May 2012, 16:16 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-66: Both Keegan and Coetzee are in the top list of tackles missed.
Looking forward to see the look of surprise when they concede more points this weekend.
15 May 2012, 16:22 pm
@Dawn(Dawn)-73: If you referring to Fernly I reckon you wrong on a few points or at the very least “misunderestimating” him gravely:
- Fernly I reckon is legend in the Durban Bluff, and by all accounts, that “small wanger” is probably at least the size of an adult black mamba, enough to satisfy at least half of the “fair” maidens of Middle Earth, Durbs,you and every girlfriend you know… all at the same time…
- You know he is being gentle with you poor Breezer fools with his ribbing… Its getting close to Popping time. He probably feels a bit sorry for you chaps with the mass lemming like rush of Gerbils over the edge of Table Mountain thats going to happen soon…
Snot en trane I tell you…
15 May 2012, 16:28 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-74: What “Top” list? Top ten… Top 20… FFS explain yourself, man…
Farking hell, if Coetzee is in a “Top” list for tackles missed, especially considering he actually TOPS tackles made then that just about makes him the whole of the Avengers put together… A goddamn group of superheroes in one just for making the attempt….
While you fools are wa.nking around about “hard” man Elstadt, a farken genuine legend is in the beginnings of being made in hallowed ground also known as Kings Park.
Marcell Coetzee…. WRECKING BALL… Reuben Mk II in the making.
15 May 2012, 16:37 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-75:
Now that’s what I’m talking about
No-one quite stoops to your level!
15 May 2012, 16:39 pm
Now where’s small wanger with lice
He must come read this
15 May 2012, 16:40 pm
@Dawn(Dawn)-77: “Stoops”…? You mean “rises”…Yeah?
15 May 2012, 16:44 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-79:
Nay
Stoops
15 May 2012, 16:46 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-79: Telling the truth and farken exposing emperors with no clothes ain’t “stooping” little lady… Come now.
15 May 2012, 16:50 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-81:
Whatever
You are here to teach small wanger the way of the Stormer insult
Go to it
15 May 2012, 17:07 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-76:
Most Missed Tackles after round 12:
1. Beauden Barrett (Hurricanes) 31
1. Nick Phipps (Rebels) 31
3. Willem Alberts (Sharks) 26
4. Brett Sheehan (Force) 25
4. Charl Mcleod (Sharks) 25
4. Peter Grant (Stormers) 25
4. Rob Horne (Waratahs) 25
8. Andrew Ellis (Crusaders) 24
8. Willie Le Roux (Cheetahs) 24
10. Faifili Levave (Hurricanes) 23
10. Nick Cummins (Force) 23
12. Aaron Cruden (Chiefs) 22
12. Conrad Smith (Hurricanes) 22
12. JP Pietersen (Sharks) 22
15. Keegan Daniel (Sharks) 21
15. Marcell Coetzee (Sharks) 21
15. Tim Whitehead (Sharks) 21
15. TJ Perenara (Hurricanes) 21
19. Chris Lowrey (Blues) 20
19. Mark Gerrard (Rebels) 20
Get it now?????
15 May 2012, 17:11 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-83:
Marcell Coetzee; 168 tackles made
Siya Kolisi: 150 tackles made
Marcell Coetzee: 21 Tackles missed.
Siya Kolisi: Doesn’t make the list.
‘Nuff said.
15 May 2012, 18:28 pm
@kaksioek(kaksioek)-31: The anti Spies brigade is still silently combing through that missed tackles list to look for Spies’s name. Oh dear, even ”golden boy” Marcel Coetzee is on the list with Daniels and Alberts! This is sooo embarrassing. Oh wait,people, Morne Steyn’s name is also missing from that list. The shock and horror!
15 May 2012, 18:30 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-84: He could very well be 20th with 19 tackles missed… Doubt it would be less than 15… So 168-21 vs 150-15 = 147 vs 135… Who’s still more effective…? Who da man?
Yeah… You got it…
The Wrecking Ball called Marcell Coetzee.
Now farken wind your scrawny neck in…
15 May 2012, 18:36 pm
@Loftus(Loftus)-85: Because they, Spies and Steyn, both actually don’t bother making tackles anyway… As Tacitus euphemistically puts it: They “dont seek out contact”… I put it down as no ballas… and thank goodness 2 okes like Potgieter and Stander probably take up their slack….
Farken can’t miss a tackle that you cant be bothered to make in the 1st place. Real farken Pink legends hey.
15 May 2012, 19:23 pm
Look, I’m one of Spies’s critics at times but some people on public forums are taking it to a next level. Like Tacitus said, what has Habana,de Villiers, Jannie Dup,JP Pietersen,etc done to escape these kind of attacks? Maybe the Sharks supporters can also tell us what had John Smit done to get selected for the Boks since 2009? I believe that everyone wants the best for the Boks but a lot of the critic of Spies has manifested to personal insults. Just remember he doesn’t pick himself.
”Real farken Pink legends hey.” Uumm…I didn’t want to say it,but yes,they’ve won 3 Super rugby titles. 3 More than the Sharks ”legends” of the nineties who haven’t won 1 Super Rugby title.
15 May 2012, 19:44 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-86: Oh well why don’t you just make up a number then???
Makes sense as you’ve never let facts get in the way of your argument.
Don’t be so lazy, go find it if you want to refute my argument.
Coetzee (and many other Sharks players) are starring in the most tackles missed list.
Fact.
15 May 2012, 19:50 pm
“Tackles Missed” can be misleading. There’s slipping off someone and there’s getting run over and staring at the sky for a moment.
15 May 2012, 20:11 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-89: A guess of 15 missed tackles is probably spot on… No an.al shenanigans needed to “refute” whatever “argument” you are trying to have…
And you say Kolisi doesn’t “make the list” yet this must be believed as “Fact”…
Fark off, man… Fact is, Coetzee’s work rate on a rugger field is pretty much unparalleled this season… Kolisi comes close on D but not quite…
Facts speak for themselves here…
Wake up and stop bamboozling yourself… go get some clothes, “Emperor”
15 May 2012, 20:16 pm
@Loftus(Loftus)-88: Shoulda been only 2 to Sharks won… But then again coulda shoulda doesnt cut it…
Just wonder where the “mighty” Bulls were in the 90′s when the Sharks (and the Lions funnily enough) where the only two teams that didn’t shitthemselves silly at mere mention of ANZAC sides… Sharks were always competing till the end of Super rugger comps then…
Aah yes… Bulls were there… as the butt of jokes involving samoosas, yeah?
As in what do the Blue Bulls and a samoosa have in common? 3 points… Yup, still remember those jokes vividly… Laugh a minute
15 May 2012, 20:19 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-92: Come 2000s and still the Sharks regularly make the business end of Super rugger… Whats changed from the nineties is that the Bulls have finally broken out of the laager and have grown some ballas nearly as big as a Sharky’s… Except for the two Pink Legends already mentioned, of course…
15 May 2012, 20:56 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-93: Hey, I agree the Bulls were mediocre at the time mentioned. They were 2rd last out of the blocks to embrace professionalism but now they are leading. The Sharks and Louis Luyt were 1st out of the blocks and they have a couple of Currie cups to show for it. That’s all in the past now. But let’s look at the 1 ”Pink Legend” – as you so affectionately call him. Morne Steyn’s record.He holds the following records:
* World record for most points scored by a player who has scored all their team’s points (31).
* Most points scored against New Zealand (31) in a single Test by any player.
* Most points scored against the All Blacks for a Springbok (31).
* Most points in a Tri-Nations match (31).
* South African record for penalties in a Test (eight).
(All of the above records achieved with his 31 points scored in the 2009 Tri-Nations match against the All Blacks in Durban)
* South African record for most points in a Test against Australia.
* Fastest 100 points by a Springbok (eight Test matches, three as replacement)[8]
* Fastest 200 points by a Springbok (16 Test matches)
* Fastest 300 points by a Springbok (24 Test matches)
* Fastest 400 points by a Springbok (33 Test matches)
* Most drop-goals in a Super Rugby season (11).
* Most drop-goals in a Super Rugby game (four) (in the 2009 Super 14 semifinal against the Crusaders)
* Most drop-goals in Super Rugby (22)
* Most penalties in a Super Rugby season (51 in 2010)
* Most points in a Super Rugby season (263)
* Steyn also holds the record for most consecutive successful kicks at goal in Test play since statistics for that category were first kept in the late 1980s. He had a streak of 41 successful attempts that ended on 6 November 2010 against Ireland.
Now I don’t know about you,but I reckon this qualify as a legend. Where’s Honiball(who I liked)’s records?
15 May 2012, 21:02 pm
Honiball wasn’t a kicking 10.. Percy took the kicks.. which is as it should be.
How many test matches have Boks won under M. Steyn and FdP since 2009 3N?
Those are far more important stats in my reckoning.
15 May 2012, 21:12 pm
mISSED TACKLES FOR A LOOSIE CAN ALSO INDICATE A GOOD WORK RATE FOR A LOOSIE. iF APLAYER MISSES, BUT FORCES THE RUNNER TO REACT, HE IS ACTUALLTY DEFENDING WELL AND WORKING HARD. oN THAT PRINCIPLE dANIEL IS BY FAR THE MOST EFFECTIVE LOOSIE IN THE SUPER15.
15 May 2012, 21:33 pm
@hensopper1(hensopper1)-96: Hahahaha. Maybe Spies should miss more tackles then he will be regarded as a better loosie.
15 May 2012, 21:42 pm
Horings: i don’t get his logic
if a loosie misses more tackles he is doing great? Bwahaahahahahahaaaha
15 May 2012, 21:51 pm
@skopskiet(skopskiet)-95: So now it is Steyn and du Preez’s fault we lost a lot of tests since 2009. Some people might argue Habana should take a lot of blame for losing 3 – 4 tests in 2010. The Aussies and Kiwi’s targeted Habana’s rushed defence and kicked at him all day. Remember how many points he cost us? Other people might argue if we had a decent coach the results would’ve been better.
15 May 2012, 22:00 pm
@Horings(Horings)-97:
I agree with his point but not his conclusion. The point earlier about Spies lacking mongrel is a good one. Parisse and Read wipe the floor with him in that department but they can also pop the ball out the back door. I don’t think these are traits you can develop at the age of 27. His time left may be short but he has time left.
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 » Show All
Have your say
You must be logged in to post a comment.